Anger, Management
by DanUpBaby on Aug 4, 2009 6:00 AM EDT
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PrintBefore we get to the meaty, La Russa-related stuff, some minor league highlights from the off-day:
- Casey Mulligan! The high minors! A week or so ago, in my report-card omnibus post, I mentioned that I was hoping the Cardinals would promote Mulligan, who has destroyed the low minors but done it with stuff that has yet to excite a single major league, minor league, or boy scout. Such is the pull of the VEB front page that yesterday Mulligan got his first action in AA; he responded by striking out two in a scoreless inning and a third. As one of the few survivors of the Great Righty Relief Purge of 2009, he'll be able to move up as long as he keeps fooling people. He's only got two levels to go.
- Backstage reason: Jeff Luhnow tweeted recently to say that 25 players would be moving around the system to ready teams for the stretch run. In addition to Mulligan I noticed Cuban defector and great baseball body/famously bad scouting report ("The King of Jam Shots") Ryde Rodriguez had returned to Quad Cities after a productive stint in Batavia.
- Speaking of people who could stand to move around the system: Peter Kozma, the 2007 first-rounder who had the severe misfortune of being drafted before Rick Porcello was off the board, celebrated Casey Mulligan's Springfield debut by going 0-3. He's now hitting .220/.281/.295 in his 309 AA at-bats, this after a .760 OPS over most of a season in low A and all of 18 games in high A. He's 21.
For the most part I've appreciated the Cardinals' aggressive movement of prospects through the system in the Jeff Luhnow era, but there was no evidence Kozma was ready to hit at a AA level before he was promoted and there's even less evidence now. Now his 2009 season won't be a high-A learning experience—it'll be something from which he needs to recover. A player who's best remembered for not being another player doesn't need that kind of pressure.
Now: an as-time-and-thought-permits look at Tony La Russa, through as many lenses as I can find. Today's insight comes courtesy of the Bill James Book of Managers, which was released in 1997, after the first La Russa Cardinals rode an offense completely dominated by the Gant/Lankford/Jordan outfield to postseason success.
It's a remarkable book, if you can find it; like the best of Bill James's work it is the voice and the relentless pursuit of insight—and, of course, the humor—that drives it, not the numbers, which could and have eventually become obsolete. Here's a pull quote from his introduction:
The discussion of baseball managers... [is] the most disorganized, unproductive, and ill informed discussion in the world of sports. And [while writing my other books] I wasn't helping.
It's an important point to make. Think about how much we know about team offense—how much more we know than we did twenty years ago. Or defense; five years ago defensive statistics were an afterthought, either proprietary like UZR and Baseball Prospectus's Davenport fielding runs or useless like range factor and fielding percentage. Heck, it's not until this year that defensive statistics have been evoked, in baseball writing, on a day-to-day basis. Baseball is such a compartmentalized game that our understanding of it, on an individual and team level—now that we're looking—continues to advance at a breakneck pace.
But there's no such movement in our understanding of managers. James notes we've been reading about successful managers since we've been reading about baseball—Harry Wright, among the most important figures in the creation of the first real professional baseball team, was of course their manager in addition to their star centerfielder—and there's a huge section of the theoretical baseball shelf devoted to managerial autobiographies and biographies devoted to talking about how colorful they are as a group, wondering what makes each of them tick. But from Harry Wright on there's been no advance in understanding what managers do on a day-to-day basis.
Some more great James prose, which could, with some minor changes and a thorough re-pronouning, stand as paragraph one in a biography of our own Tony La Russa:
A manager earns his daily bread in the gunsights of 30,000 rifles. The manager meets the press each day and greets us with an icy calm that could easily be mistaken for terror. Although, as a group, they know virtually nothing about math, they look constantly for what they call percentages, and find them in the most improbable places. Good managers, with few exceptions, are notable for their intelligence and personality. They are forceful men, often loud, often crude, sometimes hilarious. They are manipulative, cunning, intense, and selfish. All good managers have a strong need to be the center of attention. They are rarely, if ever, trusting, naive, or open.
Well. James spends much of the book—when he is not dredging up great anecdotes and attempting to classify managers by lineage (La Russa is a descendent of Ned Hanlon, the father of inside baseball)—trying to establish some "baseball card stats" for managers, useful numbers that might be employed when discussing managers. In that sense the book's failed; it's out of print, and nobody I know of has yet attempted to add the numbers to anybody's Baseball Reference page, let alone discussed them in a mainstream sports article.
But the book's effort to detangle the idea of the manager from what James describes as the "one-dimensional" view that predominates—he sucks! he's a genius!—and to dampen the importance of the last-move-I-saw in discussing managers is, I think, its most important lesson. There are a lot of things we can see a manager do; they are, unfortunately, not always the most important things a manager does.
La Russa, on balance, has not had his most brilliant season in 2009. Carrying thirteen pitchers has proven to be a burden the bench can't bear the bullpen needn't; Todd Wellemeyer never did get it turned around, and from what's slipped out unconfirmed in the matter it seems he let his personal feelings get in the way of his baseball sense when it came to Chris Duncan.
But he's successful now—or the team is—and he's been successful nearly his entire career. Of course that's not a perfect argument, and it falls apart at the extremes; Todd Wellemeyer is also tied for first in the NL Central this year. I don't know what to make of it; I think La Russa does a fine job of seeing talent when it falls outside his blind spots, and I think that his constant nodding toward percentages is, consciously or subconsciously, a fantastic way to rationalize to his starters the necessity of giving the backups regular playing time. I think he's shown, time and again, that he believes it is—more than the day-to-day moves, more than dialogue with the fans or the press or the other managers—his job to keep his players playing as well as they can, and to put them in situations in which they can do that.
But I don't know any of that. I do know that if managers have any influence at all, La Russa's record is a good example of significant and constant positive influence.
One of James's most self-assured comments on the job of managing comes buried, a little, in that introduction. He says this:
There is one indispensable quality of a baseball manager: The manager must be able to command the respect of his players. This is absolute; everything else is negotiable.
That's an interesting thing to assume, whether it's true or not, because assuming it gives you a framework for evaluating the role of the manager. For instance: Sometimes the manager's continued ability to command that respect runs into conflict with the team's ability to win baseball games; there is an obvious example of this tenet, and right now it plays third base for the Cincinnati Reds.
As La Russa becomes more and more a central figure in contemporary Cardinals history—another James nugget comes in his section on nineties managers, which suggests that with free agency changing the makeup of teams on a yearly basis the modern manager "has increased responsibility, or if you prefer, increased opportunity, to establish the tenor of the team"—he has become influential enough to displace players who are objectively valuable to the Cardinals in the interest of his continued ability to do his job well. That's the major problem, right now, with evaluating managers—La Russa is almost certainly valuable to the Cardinals, but is he worth Rolen's three wins this year, or the .3 win difference between Rolen and Glaus to this point in the challenge trade?
Here's my best guess: sometimes a good manager loses enough of his team that it is unfeasible, practically, to rebuild it in his image. La Russa has fallen near that line on occasion, as he did with Rolen, because his is a very involved style—the team has to be on board completely, or not at all. He's not Joe Torre. He's batted the pitcher eighth, he's pitched a guy an inning at a time, he's abolished the starting rotation. He's dumped players, including my two Favorite Cardinals Of All Time, for vague, backstagey reasons when they've stopped buying into his system.
Sometimes that's hurt the team—Holliday for Wallace in the long-term, trading Anthony Reyes for Rule 5 spending money, running Wellemeyer and Kip Wells and Brett Tomko into the ground. Sometimes it's helped the team. Managers, like players, have strengths and weaknesses. A manager that put less pressure on the team might still be playing with Anthony Reyes and Dan Haren in his rotation; he might also have panicked in 2006. Evaluating a manager, in 2009, still involves a lot of mights.
As I read more about what it is to be a manager I hope to do some more of this high-rent book reporting. If anybody has any recommendations I'd love to hear them.
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Haren and Rolen
I still wake up in a cold sweat about the Danny Haren trade. But, the Rolen for Glaus trade was a pretty even swap. It may cost the Cards 3.5 wins this year, but last year Glaus was 2.5 wins better than Rolen. And you would have to attribute that issue as much to Rolen’s stubborn nature as Tony’s.
Rolen
Remember who we gave up for Rolen. Polanco, Mike Timlin, and Bud Smith. Anything we got from Rolen was gravy.
Not entirely.
Polanco has been a highly useful middle infielder since the trade. Having him around the last couple of years would have saved a lot of convulsive middle-infield actions.
To be sure, it was a “good” trade. It just wasn’t completely something for nothing.
by StanTheManFan on Aug 4, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Rolen...
… has demanded trades from three different organizations so far (including every organization he’s been in), because of run-ins with three different well-regarded managers. some criticism of TLR is fine, but placing it all at TLR’s feet is ridiculous.
Rolen demanded a trade from Toronto?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I heard that he...
at least requested it. Demanded may be a strong word, but it was facilitated at his request.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
Toronto was motivated to move salary, too.
They’ve done a horrible job with salary allocation up there. I would say that Rolen’s was the obvious salary to move.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Not next year's salary, though.
Per the CBC:
Ricciardi also said the Blue Jays are paying part of what’s left on Rolen’s $11 million US salary this year. Rolen is slated to make the same in 2010, the final year of his deal, but Ricciardi said the Jays aren’t on the hook for any of that.
So, the Jays paid a portion of the remaining salary owed Rolen this season, but nothing for next year.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
right...
… but the Cards are paying Rolen’s bonus next year, and Encarnacion (the 3B Toronto got back for Rolen) is making $5mn next year. so the Jays are netting $6mn in salary relief, which is worth ~ 1.2 WAR. Rolen is worth WAY more than 1.2 WAR over Encarnacion.
the Reds have payroll constraints too. they’re not in a position to take on salary unless they are getting value for it.
OT: kindred, this is relevant to your discussion with hazel re: B. Webb -
Will Carroll today:
Webb had his shoulder ‘scoped, and the results are both good and bad. Most of it was good and available in the release—there was no tear in the labrum, and the surgery ended up being a “clean-up.” The surgery performed by Rangers team doc Keith Meister did focus on the labrum, which was frayed and not torn, but it also involved a general check and cleanup of the other structures. That there was a symptomatic problem with the labrum is bad, but it was minimal and is the type f issue from which pitchers do come back. He’ll be in a rehab program immediately, and throwing by mid-September. There was a subtle announcement that Webb would be spending his offseason in Phoenix, a good indication that the D’backs expect to pick up Webb’s option. It was a lost season for Webb and for the Snakes in ’09, but ’10 could be a lot different.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
this should
really be posted with a link, using only the article’s highlights. This is a subscription-only article and reposting the entire statement about Webb violates copyright.
Yeah, my bad, I knew it was borderline, and non-subscribers have full access to that article..
..I just tested it from a co-workers machine. Anyway, I figured a paragraph was ok since its an excerpt from a really long article. I echo pistols question below, what are the rules/unwritten guidelines? If its questionable, err on the side of caution? Or is anything from subscription-only sites off-limits?
Sorry, didn’t mean to cross the line, but this was free content anyway.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Anyway, I still lose because I haven't referenced it...
…link here
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
didn't realize it was free
as I have a subscription. I never know when anything they do is free, mostly b/c it almost never is. :) Next time post the link and whatever you have to say about Webb or whoever, and post maybe just the most important sentence or 2 from the info, rather than the whole thing.
Duly noted.
Thanks and mea culpa.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Weird...Shyster posted at length about this today..
…Just the post I needed.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
thief! thief!
j/k
what is the threshold for posting quotes? particularly with subscription content? I was wondering about the other day.
if you're going to evaluate a quote
Like a critic, it’s usually safe. (Otherwise book critics would be out a job.) But if it’s something that can be paraphrased, go with that.
Re: subscription content, I have no idea. It may depend on the subscription contract.
Picture your last good English teacher, and if your post’s not covered in red ink, you’re ok.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
don't post the entire thing
and include some of your own insight along with it. Definitely post the link. In fairness to tookie, there’s a lot more to that article than just the stuff on Webb, but he posted the entire section on Webb. It’s murky. Post a teaser, along w/ your own statement, and the link and you’re ok.
i do not recall having a conversation with hazel about Webb...
… granted, i often post on here when i’m pretty drunk, but i think i’d remember that. sure it wasn’t someone else?
Haha, my bad it was joker24...
..completely missed with this entire subthread. Sorry.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
yes...
… requested one at least. although in fairness, it was mostly attributed to the artificial turf that was screwing up his back. so maybe he had no problems with Cito Gaston. i should have distinguished that.
the point is, he’s got a track record as a malcontent.
not sure having personality differences with larry bowa and tony larussa
means you are a malcontent
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Aug 4, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1.
More likely, it’s a sign of sanity.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 4, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
And LaRussa has the same track record as a malcontent
after run ins with his share of players too.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i don't know...
… he’s hired to manage a team. the players are hired to follow his instruction. Edmonds got pissed and demanded a trade when he wouldn’t be guaranteed an everyday spot when he was obviously in decline. Rolen got pissed when he wasn’t starting (or was it because he was played too much?) even though he was obviously injured and ineffective. Reyes got pissed because his coaches told him that he wouldn’t be able to succeed as a major league starter with just a flat 92 mph fastball and a mediocre change-up. who else is there? Kerry freaking Robinson? see below.
Edmonds couldn’t get an everyday job anywhere else in baseball, Reyes still sucks because he’s never developed another pitch, and Rolen has been shifted again. looks like a bit of vindication to me.
meanwhile, he and Duncan have the eternal dedication of Pujols and Yadi and Carp and Lohse and Eckersley and Piniero and etc.
whatever. this argument can never be resolved. i completely agree that TLR is bull-headed and infuriating at times. a lot of managers are that way. but that doesn’t make him a bad manager, and it doesn’t mean that the team would be better with someone else.
I was wondering about Edmonds, though
is it true TLR demanded he board a plane against doctor’s orders for his concussion?
Then his symptoms cleared up and he did become a productive player, if not every day. Just not with us.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
His "symptoms" cleared up
because he stopped taking his concussion medicine.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
gotcha
That whole thing was murky.
Must’ve been murky for Jimmy too.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
i've always regarded the plane-boarding story...
… as apocryphal. if that were actually true i’m sure JED would have made it a public matter, and possibly even sued to organization.
and yes: he was somewhat productive (read: above replacement leve but below average) as a platoon player. but it took him getting cast aside by two organizations before he would accept that role.
Yup
Ozzie Smith
Brian Jordan
Ray Lankford
Ron Gant
Jeff Brantley
Adam Kennedy
Jim Edmonds
Scott Rolen
There are probably others I am missing.
Damn, thats a pretty good lineup
Can Gant/Jordan play 1B? Just need a catcher..
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
David Bell played 5 games at 1B for the Mariners in 1998
and David Bell hates anything that breaths.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
When
did Larry Bowa becom a “well-regarded” manager? I must have missed that. I agree that it is not all TLR’s fault, but he certainly has a large share of the blame.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Ah, Larry Bowa was given two opportunities
to be a manager. He was fired from both jobs for the same reason. He simply could not get along with his players, in Philly and San Diego. He’s a 3rd base coach in LA now. He’s been fine in that role.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
La Russa
He is a grumpy old man with a “my way or the highway” mentality. For most managers in baseball, that would not work.
So many people question him and second guess him, but we forget how many times he took second rate teams teams into the playoffs. That 06 team had not business even making it into the first round.
I think he makes a lot of mistakes, but his correct moves often pay out big. Plus, when he does get a player that is on board with him, that player becomes dedicated to him.
But...
How many times did he take a first rate team to the playoffs?
I do think managers are over-rated for wins and loses but then I think of Dusty Baker. Does he just have the opposite of the midus touch or is he really a “bad” manger that costs his teams wins?
But I agree with you graffin about the dedication he seems to gain from some players. There are just some people that have that “it” factor that makes you want to run through walls for them. But for every Albert that would jump in front of a bus to save a puppy for LaRussa there is a Kerry Robinson who probably took up taxidermy just to negate LaRussa’s love for animals.
But one thing TLR does do is put fringe players in position to succed.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Aug 4, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions
who gives a damn about kerry robinson?
TLR was the only manager to give him any at-bats in the major leagues.
Managing a good team...
seems is overrated. You take the 50’s Yankees Teams and probably anyone could have managed those. It’s the Teams that are marginal where the manager’s impact is greatest in my opinion or perhaps a good team where a manager screws it up.
I agree, TLR is very adept at putting his players in a position to succeed.
The second rate teams argument holds no validity for me.
It completely ignores random variation (i.e. those second rate teams SHOULD get in a certain percentage of the time) and it’s cherry-picking to the worst degree. It ignores other managers who have taken flawed teams to the playoffs and it ignores the years that LaRussa couldn’t manage good teams into the playoffs.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
But there's the problem...
that DanUp is getting at, I think. WIthout a good way to measure a manager’s impact, how do we know what the clinching factor for that ’06 team was?
I also don’t think that Tom_Lawless was suggesting that other managers haven’t taken fringey teams to the playoffs, I think the point is that LaRussa has, historically at least, found ways to get teams through (especially in opposition to the Baker’s of this world).
I think we can all agree that LaRussa does a pretty good job, even though there are decisions he makes that drives each of us nuts at times. But how much of the Cardinals success or failure can we place at his doorstep? Hard to say…
by MinnesotaCardinal on Aug 4, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions
"The clinching factor for that '06 team" was the Astros losing on the final day of the season.
A Baker-managed team beat a TLR-managed juggernaut in ‘02, if I remember correctly. If ever there were two managers who evidence how important managing talented players is to success, it’s those two. When Baker had Bonds, Kent, and Schmidt, he won a pennant and made numerous October appearances. When TLR had McGwire, Canseco, and Stewart and Edmonds, Rolen, and Pujols, he made numerous October appearances and won a World Series and two pennants. Overall, I believe that managers get too much credit and too much blame. That said, I think TLR has earned most (but NOT all) of the second-guessing he gets on this website.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
'02...
… didn’t we lose because we couldn’t get a hit off of Kirk freaking Reuter? whose fault is that?
if we’re going to discount the effect of managers in general, then we should do it doubly during short playoff series. it was amazing how well all of TLR’s moves worked in the ‘06 post-season, but no less amazing than how badly we got smoked in the ’04 and ’05 postseasons. in a short series, you’re basically gambling. sometimes So Taguchi hits a home run in the 9th inning (and then Yadi hits another one), and sometimes Kirk Reuter shuts you down for 7 innings. doesn’t really have any bearing on anything.
Right.
That’s why no one should point to ’06 as a great TLR achievement.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
My point:
If one points to ‘06 as a glowing example of TLR’s success, then one also has to look at ‘02, ’03, ’04, and ’05 as evidence of his failures. (Well, 2003 I view as a failure, but that’s an entire season.) I was disagreeing with noting ’06 as a TLR success by pointing out that it was luck and that, if you do that, you have to then look at playoff failures as demerits, especially those at the hands of Dusty Baker. Again, I think both TLR and Baker evidence how important having great players is to a manager winning games. Joe Torre is another example.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
we're not disagreeing..
… for the most part, at least. i still think 03 was a product of a series of major injuries to an already-suspect pitching staff, which has nothing to with TLR.
Right.
I just didn’t develop my point very well at all in the initial post.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Why necessarily failures?
In ’02, ’04, and ’05 the teams averaged over 100 wins in those three years, plus they won at least one post-season series. In ’02, the team went 4-4 in playoff games and 1-1 in playoff series. In ’04, the team went 7-8 in playoff games and 2-1 in playoff series. In ’05, the team went 5-4 and 1-1 in playoff series.
Another aspect of all of this...
is that we’re essentially focusing on game decisions. It’s hard not to, since those are the ones that are stuck in the memory banks. But in many ways, I think that’s the least of what a manager actually does. Much of the manager’s job (and this is true of any coach or team manager) is to get individuals to act as a cohesive group, usually with a common goal and attitude in mind. DIfferent teams need different approaches.
I’m reminded of Scott Skiles, the current Bucks coach and former Bulls coach. When the Bulls hired Skiles, they kind of needed a hard-nosed X’s and O’s guy. By the time they got successful, that approach grated on too many of the players, and they largely quit on him.
LaRussa has largely been able to get guys on the same page and to buy into the direction he wants the team to go. On occasion (Rolen, others), LaRussa’s style has clashed with individual egos. Sometimes, it’s best to get rid of the problem player (Rolen), while other times, it’s worth thinking about getting rid of the manager.
by MinnesotaCardinal on Aug 4, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
On some of TLR's player clashes, I glanced at stats of recent departees . .
Anthony Reyes (done for the year??) ERA close to 7
Chris Perez – mop up role ERA close to 6
Lil Dunc pinch hit for Pawtucket (K of course) 150 BA
My favorite
But Drew, though he made a big impact in his one at-bat, didn’t last long. The left-handed hitter smashed a three-run double to the gap in right-center and did not look well running the bases. He then had to score from second on a single by Mike Lowell and was hobbling even worse.
When the Red Sox took the field in the bottom of the first, Rocco Baldelli replaced Drew in right field.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Drew has been a productive player. He's just way too fragile and expensive for that production.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
“I think the point is that LaRussa has, historically at least, found ways to get teams through (especially in opposition to the Baker’s of this world).”
Again. This is the problem. Statements like this get made but there’s zero proof. Why is it TLR and not “Walt Jocketty was a great GM that secured kickass talent.”
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I don't think anyone's saying that.
I’m certainly not. The fact is, it takes everyone’s talents and determination to win the World Series. Without the talent, and the willingness of the front office to spend the money on players, and the players giving it their all, there would be no ’06 title.
I remind you again, azru, what DanUp is getting at with this post. How do we measure the impact of the manager. I’m not saying I know, but that’s where I’d like to focus the discussion, rather than getting into the same old “LaRussa’s the bomb!” “No, LaRussa sux!” arguments.
So, I’ll pose it to you: how would you think about measuring a manager’s role?
by MinnesotaCardinal on Aug 4, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
rating a manager
There really isn’t a solid way of rating a manager. For me, if a manager has won a championship with more than one team, that is a plus. Or if a manager has dominated a division for a long period of time (Bobby Cox).
As much as many of us want TLR out, how many managers out there can fill his shoes and do a better job? I think damn few.
Bobby Cox hasn't been so great without Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz all in their prime
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 4, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
sure he was...
… for awhile. that 14-year streak only ended a few years ago, and Maddox, Glavine, and Smoltz have been out of their prime for 5-6 years. but the FO stopped spending money and many of their prospects didn’t pan out. meanwhile, the Mets started doing a Yankees impression. it happens.
the real question for me is
how many managers would win with the Washington Nationals?
and how many managers would win with Albert Pujols for ten years?
If we can sit here and say, that was a dumb move by Charlie Manuel in the All-Star Game, he only wins because he has good players, why is TLR miraculously exempt from that logic?
I want the guy who can maximize what we have. When we have the transcendent player of several generations, had several seasons of being the best team in the National League, my question is why don’t we have more rings? If the right guy is TLR, great. Keep him.
TLR is the same guy who passed the 1,000 loss mark as a Cardinal managers. Managers should not. Get. Tenure.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think
you’re on to the right idea. No manager, even Tony, would win w/ the Nationals.
Damned near every manager would win w/ Albert Pujols.
This game is about players making, or not making plays, and too many Cards’ fans attribute all the Cards’ success to Tony La Russa, seemingly ignoring all the great players he’s had at his disposal for 14 years. Unfortunately, our front office seems to treat him as a saint — as the Cards’ savior — and, as a result, bestows on him too much power and influence.
True - to an extent
I think that it also depends on the team. Would you say that the Royals are nearly as bad as the Nationals? I would.
I think the LaRussa would be great for the Royals and they would be a lot better off with TLR. What the Royals team needs (says lowly me) is a hard-ass as a manager that will get the most out of the team. Every year around June/July, the Royals roll over. I have never seen a Cardinals team under TLR do that.
last year?
’07?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
our September slumps have been painful lately...
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Doesn't count
Last year TLR had to trot out 5 MI sometimes because of injuries.
In ’07, TLR had to trot out 3 players who were picked up in September because of injuries.
Wasn't Hillman supposed to be a hardass?
They need more good players. heh.
Yeah...
he turned out not to be. Nor does he stress fundamentals. (The two things that he was brought in to be good at.
It is hard to stress fundamentals
(i.e. getting on base, defence) when your moron of a GM goes on a quest to recruit as many over-priced, mediocre, hacktastic swing-at-everything 1B/OF types with terrible gloves and 25%+ K%s as is humanly possible.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
it's true...
but even defensively, bunting, etc. It’s just horrible baseball to watch. That being said, I’ll be at The “New” K tonight because they only have 3 promotions going in one night…
complicated
That is what makes it so hard to evaluate a manager. Nobody can win with crappy players, but it there are many managers that can screw up with great players.
Managing is like gambling. You are successful if you make more good moves than bad moves. I can think of a lot of TRL’s bad moves, but ultimately having him as a manager has been very successful for the Cardinals.
see, here's my thing
I think it’s a very gray area to evaluate a manager’s “greatness”.
But we sure as hell can evaluate what he does. I’m alarmed that we suddenly have to stop talking about the odds of such gambles when there’s so much more information available to the fan, and while the national media has apparently granted TLR a free pass because he’s stuck around.
If anything, TLR has improved in some areas over the years. If there is less criticism of him, how do we expect him to improve? We should criticize him because we respect him. Other managers have fanbases that just say “he’s senile” and have done with it.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
see also:
My objection to leaving out the coaching staff, esp. Duncan.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
lol
“the bomb”
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Yep....
..C’mon Saber-kiddies, surely u guys can come up with some kind of equation to quantify a manager’s performance. I am sick and tired of arguing back and forth on the pluses and minuses of any given manager when the only tools of measurement we have (W/L records, # of championships) leave a lot to be desired. Try to speak to a manager’s quality using any of those will get you jumped on by people who will criticize your lack of empirical support, yet offer no alternative as a meaningful basis by which to cowpare a manager’s ‘quality’. Any statistical students out there looking for a Master’s thesis?
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
just because there's no other metric
doesn’t mean what we have is worth anything.
Just because I have no way of knowing what lotto numbers are coming up tomorrow doesn’t mean that calling Ms. Cleo at 2.99 a minute to find out has merit.
You need to quit over valuing what you know and stop dismissing what you don’t.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 4, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now Yer Ganging Up on Ms. Cleo???
:=8O
Is nothing sacred?
By the way, Ms. Cleo would remind you that your argument is a little disingenuous; Win-Loss records is hardly cowparable to telephoning in for psychic empathy, or whatever nonsense that weird old bat was pushing. Hyperbole does not strengthen your argument. True enough, a manager’s record is an overly-simplified lens through which to view his worth over time, but it is hardly cowpletely useless (which Ms. Cleo clearly is – sorry Baybayyy…)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
AND....
…it is enough for the casual fan to form an opinion, if not an actual statement of fact – you wanna split hairs all day and argue over someone’s opinion, go right ahead. But until someone designs a metric to actually prove something, one way or an-udder, opinion is all that is left at the end of the day.
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
it's pretty fashionable to dismiss things as a hyperbole
however, I was pointing out shitty causation based solely on correlation.
That “it’s the only thing we got” is as ridiculous as listening to Ms Cleo. You can have a million things that prove a theory but it only takes ONE thing to disprove it.
I can point at millions of White Swans and say “look, no black swans. they don’t exist”. It only takes one Black Swan to prove they exist, even if I found one or not. It’s like saying “well we can only point at white swans as evidence there are no black swans because that’s all we got”.
Just because we haven’t found a way to quantify a manager’s ability doesn’t mean shitty causation based on cognitive biases is the way to do it.
again….over qualifying what we do know and completely dismissing what we don’t.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 4, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahaha
fashionable?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
What About....
…a straw cow? I could chew my own cud!
;=8)
Once again, your analogy is saying something I am not. I would not make the giant leap from a million white swans ergo black ones don’t exist; using W/L records as a way of discussing managers’ quality does not preclude a better way of similar discourse, but as it is the only option currently available to me to discuss the matter it is what I will use to base my opinion on.
Does ANYBODY get what I am saying, or have I gone around the barn on a snort full of fermented moo juice again??
:=8/
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
Maybe Managers...
should be graded on their +/- of the Pythagorean W/L. If the team finishes better than their Pythag, then they are a good manager? I would say this should work, but I believe Houston defies that every year?
I would think that would at least be better than just crediting a manager with the team's W/L total
But there are also lots of things wrong with that. If a team has a lot of wacky blow-out losses they could outperform their pythag that way. Aren’t there just too many variables to come up with a simple way to evaluate a manager’s effect on the team’s performance? This is one of the reason it’s so frustrating for fans—managers are routinely assigned credit or blame for things that, in reality, are very difficult to trace the causality of.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
i think jumsy's right in part: this is where you would start to look for answers.
but i agree that the “noise” in over- or underperforming the pythag is probably so high that you would have trouble making firm conclusions.
you’d also have a vanishing effect, IF in fact the manager positively influences players: let’s say tony, by being supermotivating, helps an ordinary player be a 3 WAR player. after 3 years of being a 3 WAR player, the pythag projection will “see” the player as a 3 WAR player, not as a replacement level player who is succeeding above expectations. since managers tend to stay put for many years, you’d stop registering this effect and underestimate the production of the manager.
the converse would also be true: if tony were suppressing someone’s skill, after a few years, the pythag would stop seeing the player as “underperforming.”
i think this is probably an intractable problem.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Good point on the "vanishing effect" stuff, I hadn't thought of that.
Cool stuff. Although, aren’t you talking more about teams over-performing their projections rather than a pythagorean record? Isn’t pythag-record just a straight up “expected W/L” based on actual runs scored and allowed? I thought what Jumsy was trying to say was that, in the course of a season, a manager might be able to squeeze some extra wins out of a team that otherwise would not get that many just from their production habits. This could theoretically be done with savvy handling of bullpens, pitcher/hitter matchups, lineup shuffling, etc. If sounds to me
I hope I didn’t seem like I was dismissing Jumsy or something (sorry if I came off that way). Clearly this is the sort of thinking needed to get better evaluation of managers. But it seems like a pretty daunting task and would probably require some clever and complex methodology.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
WOWY?
I agree that Pythag record has way too much noise and also depends on the way your team is constructed. What I’ve been thinking about is some sort of WOWY study on player WAR and applying some sort of regression factor for age, etc. If I actually understood enough of statistical regression to do this properly, I would… but since I don’t, I’ll just put this idea out there. I think there was something similar to this done a few years back with Leo Mazzone and pitchers during his Brave’s tenure. This would at least give some rudimentary possibility of determining whether managers have any effect through “motivation.” However, I suspect that even this would have way too much noise and would simply show no discernable effect either way for any managers.
With Or Without You
Sorry, should have clarified – take a look at player’s WARs in years where they played under that manager and compare that to when they didn’t.
It's VOR8MOR
(Value Over Replacement 80s MOR) is pretty impressive…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I've just created a very simplistic fanpost
Those are great points, Tom, and I don’t nearly enough about statistics to take anything else of significance into account. I just plugged in the numbers.
Take a look here
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
I don't think pythag really works
If you just have an “A bullpen” for games that you could win, and a “B Bullpen” to pour gasoline on the fire of games you have already lost, then you come out looking pretty good by pythag. Potentially some of the same issues with an unbalanced rotation. If you have an awful end of the rotation and bullpen, then the manager looks good. If you have depth and balance the manager may not look good, but that isn’t really his fault. I think Pythagorean is interesting enough, I just don’t think it is quite what some made it out to be.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 4, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
do Historical records exist...
so that you could go back and take into account the pythagorean measurement of a given Team so that you could measure a manager’s career? I’m just throwing something out there. Or perhaps use a metric along the lines of the roster and the total WAR component to see how managers rank against their peers that have better or lesser rosters?
The only inputs you need for historical pythag is runs scored and runs allowed, which is widely available.
and the work you are talking about has definitely been done before. There is a whole chapter in Baseball Between the Numbers (most of which is free on Google books) that discusses this and other ways to view manager contributions.
I thought it especially enlightening that “only six times in thirty-three years has any manager used sacrifice attempts, stolen base attempts, and intentional walks to increase his team’s win expectancy over an entire season.”
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
thanks. I've been wanting to bring this up
But for some reason didn’t even think reading sample chapters online.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Cardinals '06 Clinching factor was...
Adam Wainwright’s Uncle Charlie.
OH!
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Aug 4, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Bah!
Enough with calling that ’06 team a second-rate team. That was the best team in baseball until down the stretch they lost their SS, CF, and 3B in rapid fire succession, and all of that despite having their previously reliable closer being stick-a-fork-in-him-done. They limped into the playoffs and then got healthier (not completely healthy, mind you) and got teams that they happened to match up very well against. In many ways, they were the mirror image of the 2004 team after about September 15, after being a virtual carbon copy, quality wise, through August 1st or so.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Aug 4, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget to mention...
the 2, 8 game losing streaks and 1, 7 game losing streak endured that season. The ’06 teams was 48-39 at the All-Star Break and only 35-39 after the break when the injuries started piling up.
They also would have lost a lot fewer games if LaRussa had replaced Izzy sooner
and if LaRussa hadn’t used So Taguchi as his LF instead of Chris Duncan, as weird as that is to say now.
The amazing thing is how terrible Marquis was even AFTER interleague play and his spot in the rotation was still secure over Anthony Reyes.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
don't you have to take into account how a manager well... manages his players' injuries
when deciding said greatness? I know that you have to put some of the blame on the players, but shouldn’t a great manager know when to back off a player who is obviously injured? Izzy, Rolen, Ank, Duncan, and those are just the recent ones. Just think how much better these teams could have been if these players weren’t pushed past their breaking point.
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I can't believe
how TLR gets a free pass on injury management. Everyone wants to blame the medical staff, but TLR is just as responsible as anyone for players trying to hide injuries and play when they aren’t able.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I'm a frequent critic of TLR,
and honestly look forward to the day when he’s no longer here, but I’ve always believed he’s a great motivator of men. His teams win because 1) he has usually always had outstanding players, and 2) because he’s apparently been able to motivate his guys to go hard all year long. And that’s a huge thing, I’m not trying to downplay it at all.
His tactical sense, however, is nothing special. He doesn’t win because he bats the pitcher 8, or because he bunts all the time, or because he goes through 160 different lineups per season, or because he thinks any old utility infielder can play the outfield, or because he blows through his entire bullpen in a game his team is leading by 11 runs. I think all those quirks more likely are LOSING him games than winning them.
HONESTLY
i do not want to suffer through another decade like the 90’s, When Torre was at his worst, and whoever was before him, and after Herzog i cant remember because hell i was 10 when TLR started his tenure in 96? right 96? but i have thoroughly enjoyed every season as frustrating as it can be sometimes because i know with some of the players in our line-up and our manager we can win games. just imagine if you were a royals fan for christ sake, havent been to the playoffs since 85 and the fans i will call friends for the sake of the anology. Its like your friends moving in mass each in every year only leaving you in the stands, for a attendance that rivals the marlins games
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
Why do you take
an all-or-nothing mentality here? Either we have TLR or we are doomed to irrelevance? What do the early-90s Cardinals or the Royals have to do with any of this? Have you looked at the rosters of either of those teams?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 4, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
didnt
exactly say that, you need a good manager and some decent players to win, the royals currently have only one good player, and a drought of good player(s) since George Brett, which is why their attendance suck as do most of the fans. theyre bitter because of losing team year after year. thats my point, people are critical of TLR ok, everyone has opinions like assholes and most of them stink, its ok. But when you have a HOF coach it def helps, case in point is Joe Girardi, loads of good players, just not winning anything right now, anything being world series.
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
I don't think Girardi's a very pertinent example of what you're trying to say.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Torre and the 90s Cards
If anything, you disprove your point by bringing up Torre. The 1990s Cardinals were not good. They didn’t have good players. The fact that a HOF manager who went on to win, what, like four consecutive World Series titles, couldn’t win here, demonstrates that the talent was poor. His move to the Yankees where he won those titles with good players is further evidence of our poor talent. If TLR were managing those teams, they wouldn’t have been good either. Every single manager who is in the HOF has had great talent to manage. They are inducted on the backs of the players who went out and won the games.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions
This gets at the heart of the problem.
Is a HOF coach HOF material because he got great teams or because he does something that other managers would not have done.
It’s the Phil Jackson question. Would any of a hundred coaches won titles with the Bulls because they had Jordan and Pippen in their primes (or Kobe and Shaq)? Or, did Jackson maximize the talent in a way others wouldn’t have?
by MinnesotaCardinal on Aug 4, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
However, I think basketball is much, much different than baseball. Coaches call plays and have to play individual matchups 5-at-a-time all game. I think baseball, more than any other sport, is far less reliant on coaching. A manager may call for a steal, a hit-and-run, or a bunt. But, how often? Basketball coaches call the defense and the offensive play every time down the floor. I believe that basketball coaches have a far greater effect on a game’s outcome than a baseball manager.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
when was the last time you saw Phil Jackson call any play?
the whole point of the triangle is that it runs itself.
The Lakers don't run the triangle all that often compared to the early 90s Bulls.
He calls them fairly regularly to get Gasol on the post or Kobe a pick-and-roll or one-on-one.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
isolation for Kobe...
… does not constitute a “play”. at least not one that anybody should get credit for.
It does if
there’s a succession of 2 screens as Kobe goes down the lane, the both an inside and an outside player that Kobe can dish off to. Sometimes he’s winging it and sometimes it’s a play.
LeBron
Didn’t Mike Brown win Coach of the Year for calling this “play” all season? :)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
The triangle does not run itself
That’s like saying the pick and roll runs itself. The triangle is a basic offense with 1000 different variations. Just like with Jerry Sloan’s pick and roll offense. Even a simple play has 3 picks on a rotation to free up a player then different cuts down the lane.
Triangle Offense
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Aug 4, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There is a Casey Stengel quote that goes something like, "Amazing how Yankees can make me look like the genius I am."
Stengel had bounced around mediocre teams generally piloting them to proper second-division finishes until he was hired by the ever parsimonious Yankees because they could pick him up on the cheap.
Come to think of it, it might be interesting to speculate how TLR would have fared under Steinbrenner. . …
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
My opinion...
Torre is very good at managing players who are superstars…keeping egos in check. If you look at his stats with the Braves and Mets from the late ’80s to mid ’90s…not good.
I opened a Cardinals book recently
Post-Dispatch, I think. It had a story about Steve Kline bitching to the press. TLR found out about it at the press conference, walked out, and dressed him down, so to speak, while Kline was still in the shower.
Yeah, “motivation” is one word for it. I have no argument with it if it works, and quite frankly I don’t care if he’s the third least-liked manager in the game. I do have a problem with it if it’s the only approach. That doesn’t work in all circumstances, like say with an exhausted World Series team that’s too jittery to take a game in Fenway….
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Steve Kline...
showered? By the looks of his hat, I would have thought he didn’t shower once the season started. I call BS on your story.
Kline
flipped him off from the bullpen. LaRussa had every right to be pissed.
Confronting players is hardly LaRussa’s only approach. No way he would command the respect of his clubhouse if all he did was get in his players’ faces. I don’t think any manager of any team makes every player happy, so the evidence of a few discontented players like Rolen does not make me think LaRussa isn’t respected.
That said, I find his feud with Edmonds to be strange. I could not understand him snubbing Jed when he came back to StL as a Cub.
If TLR would have dressed me down in the shower I would have flipped him off too
That is the problem here, we have no idea why Kline did that? Was the finger the chicken, or the egg, or the other side of the road?
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Kline warmed up, but wasn't used
and he wasn’t happy about it, so he flipped off TLR from the ’pen.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
I still have a hard time believing THAT was the only reason
Kline was flaky, but something had to have him irratated in the first place
It is quite possible I am full of crap though.
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
ladies and gentlemen
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I was mulling this over the other day...
how much of TLR’s success is Dave Duncan? He revamps every starter through the door; he constructs the game-plans to beat the other team. Does TLR even have the option to make some of the moves he’s made without Duncan?
That’s the thing… we can’t ever know. Because they’ve been inseparable in their careers, there’s no applicable evidence to examine wherein TLR went without his right-hand man.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
(now I can't find the cite where La Russa credits Duncan with inventing the modern closer)
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
TLR on Costas
Earlier this year, Costas interviewed Tony on MLBNetwork and Bob started to give Tony credit for the ninth inning closer job. Tony interrupted and said the idea was all Dave Duncan and Dave deserves the credit not him.
aha
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
there is a recent book out
Tony LaRussa : Man on a Mission. I haven’t gotten a copy of it yet, but I heard an interview with the author, and it seems that Tony gives Duncan almost complete control over the pitching staff from how that interview came across.
Has anyone read this book yet, and can anyone confirm that? And if this is the case, should we be bitching at Duncan for the crazy bullpen usuage that has always been blamed on Tony?
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
duncan was also
the inventor of the no-starter pitching staff, which they tried for a few days in Oakland.
Do you mean the piggyback thing
with 8 “starters”, each pitching half a start on 3 days rest, two per day? I thought they did that for a little while longer than a few days…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd say about 60%
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Wells didn't have crappy stuff
he has a million dollar arm and a ten-cent head.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
But, the funny kind of ten-cent head.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Wells had a couple of plus pitches.
His problem was that he was a guy who never learned how to work because he never had to.
Until he hit the big leagues.
and he has to have the least amount of confidence in himself
or his pitches of anyone I have ever seen. You can just see it on his face sometimes that he is almost afraid to throw a pitch.
If. that. makes. any. sense…..whatsoever
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
not everyone is a Pinata.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Lets be honest about Reyes and Haren
I was as big a fan of Reyes as anyone, but he is just not a good pitcher. We should have traded him after the 2006 season to get some value out of him. We waited too long, and we got nothing for him.
In regards to Haren. Its just bad luck. No one at the time knew that Mulder would fall apart, and no one knew Haren would become one of the best pitchers in baseball. It didn’t work out, but I hate to hear people say that they knew it would always be a terrible move. How could you? Mulder was a Cy Young type pitcher and we were trying to win the world series. I was extreme happy when we got him, i’ll admitt that.
Haren was a rare pitching prospect who actually panned out, it happens but not often. I would still rather take the chance of trading prospects for proven guys.
right...
… Haren was never projected to be a Cy Young-type pitcher by anyone.
and, of course, Jocketty made the trade. not TLR. of course TLR wanted a front-line starter to pair with Carp in an attempt to win a World Series with a very good team. what field manager wouldn’t? but the blame for that trade falls on Jocketty.
and you’re right: Reyes just isn’t good, and that’s not TLR’s fault either.
If I'm not mistaken,
TLR was very much beating the Mulder drum. Dave Duncan, on the other hand, did not want to trade Haren for Mulder.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
if you read my post...
… i said that TLR wanted the trade. but TLR probably wants a lot of trades. the GM is the one responsible for making (or not making) those trades, so the responsibility rests with the GM.
I disagree there.
The Cardinals with TLR have never been a top-down club in terms of personnel moves. It’s been a collaborative process between the front office and the field manager/pitching coach. He’s had a say in personnel moves. And that’s fine. I think a manager should be consulted. But, to then not hold him accountable in any way is not correct either. I think that TLR deserves some of the blame for The Haren Trade, even if Jocketty deserves the majority of it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
bullshit...
… hold TLR accountable for on-the-field moves, and hold the GM responsible for off-the-field transactions. whether he asked for TLR’s advice or not (i’m sure he did), the decision was Jocketty’s.
if you disagree, then you have to also give some credit to TLR for the McGwire, Clark, Finley, Edmonds, Rolen, Walker, and Carpenter trades. which would tip the scales pretty nicely back in TLR’s favor, wouldn’t it?
I do credit TLR for McGwire.
I also credit TLR for looking the other way all those years while McGwire was working out and adding that muscle.
I also know that he wanted Walker. I can’t speak to Clark (although, I suspect that he was for the move), Finley, Edmonds, or Rolen. We signed Chris Carpenter as a free agent. I’m unaware of him specifically advocating trading a specific prospect for those players, as reports have him doing in the Mulder deal.
I don’t think that TLR’s influence is the same on every trade. I also recognize that the GM has to value talent when attempting to make a trade. We also have to look at what the Cards organization surrenders in the trade. For instance, with DeRosa, we know that TLR advocated acquiring him and that Mo put together to package of Perez and Todd. I don’t blame TLR for wanting DeRosa in exchange for Perez and Todd. Because I don’t know that he specifically advocated for that exchange of players. However, I know that TLR very much wanted Mulder, and was for trading Haren to get Mulder. I know that Duncan did not want to trade Haren for Mulder. This is the only instance where I am aware of TLR advocating trading a player within our organization for a player from outside it. So, I’ll blame Jocketty primarily, but am not going to give TLR a free pass on the deal.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
To be fair, if we're going to blame him for Haren
You’re going to have to give him credit for all the trades that did work out.
THRO MOAR!!!!1
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 4, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
If I'm not mistaking,
wasn’t Barton the centerpiece of the Mulder trade, with Haren being the second piece to add value?
Might be missing the joke
But, I think thp means Daric Barton who we sent to the A’s with Haren
Fritz is just projecting
everyone knows that it is HE who always thinks about Blaine Boyer.
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
That's how I remember it
Barton was the piece everyone was sad to see go. People liked Haren, but he profiled as a 3-4 starter with #2 potential— IIRC.
In fact, I’d argue that some people were sadder to see Calero included than Haren. But I could be wrong on that.
that's how i remember it also...
… Barton was certainly above Haren in all the prospect ranking systems. but enough people claim to have been against it at the time b/c of Haren that i choose to believe that at least some of them are telling the truth (and/or remembering correctly).
I was against it because of the total package.
(Not Lex Luger.) I was very high on Haren, as that was when I was relatively ignorant as to prospect rating lists, scouting reports, etc. I was going off what I had seen and I thought he would be a Matt Morris type of pitcher. (Little did I know…) I also thought Kiko Calero was a solid bullpen piece. Lastly, I had read a few blurbs about Barton and knew that he had a good bat, but projected as a first baseman (which we had) or DH (which we’d rarely need). Actually, Barton was the piece I was okay with trading, ironically.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I had very, very similar opinions at the time.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
Calero
is a really under-rated piece of this trade, IMO. He’s been bullpen ace-worthy for a lot of his career, bit surprising he hasn’t had more chance to close somewhere. He’s been excellent for the Marlins this year. A guy I’d love to have back for the stretch run/post-season…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't know much about prospects then
But looking back Haren posted a 10.5 K/9 2.3 BB/9 in a hitter’s league AAA that year (not even going into Mulder’s collapsing K-rates) and then held his own in the big leagues. He was objectively a ready made league average starter with projection for more.
Not afraid to nitpick
I didn't like the trade...
when it came down in December of ’04. Not so much because of the value we gave up, but because Mulder was obviously hurt in the second half that year.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
This is an important point to remember
While no one may have foreseen Haren being a future Cy Young contender, that doesn’t mean there weren’t critics of the trade at the time. My heart sank when I saw the Mulder headline, despite that I expected him to be a good pitcher and help the team.
There were people then who didn’t like the trade. One can’t claim that everyone was on Jocketty’s/LaRussa’s side at the time and that we’re all using the benefit of hindsight now to make ourselves look better.
by arch support on Aug 4, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Reyes isn't a good pitcher anymore
but the Cardinals squandered that asset and at least part of that is due to TLR’s and DD’s (perhaps justifiable) dislike for Reyes.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
if he would have just bent his damn bill
there wouldn’t have been any problems. You can’t be right handed and get away with that. it’s one of those queer things lefties do.
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
Honestly, I feel we all got too excited over his start against the Sox and his WS start.
Just because a guy has two good starts over the course of a year doesn’t mean he’s ever going to be good (Jimenez and Bud Smith’s no-hitters come to mind). Reyes had every oppurtunity to suceed at the major league level and couldn’t cut it. I know they tried to change his pitching mentality, but he had many unsuccessful starts before that happened. The bottom line with Anthony Reyes might be that his stuff, combined with his mentality, might not be cut out to be a successful major league pitcher.
Don't forget..
that Reyes continually dominated AAA hittiers for a few seasons. He was rated our number one prospect at one time IIRC…I wouldn’t say that our hopes were all hung on two late 2006 starts no matter how good they were.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
Some pitchers are, for a lack of a better term, AAAA pitchers.
Look what PJ Walters has recently done at Memphis. I’d be willing to bet some internet dollars that he never has a double-digit strikout game in the majors, yet he has over 25 in his last two starts.
As far as Reyes goes, maybe we overvalued him because he was our best prospect in our horrible farm system at the time. Maybe it’s a mental problem with Reyes not being comfortable in the big leagues. Maybe his stuff isn’t as good as everyone thought. Regardless of if he was throwing the fastball 92 or 95, it didn’t have any movement on it and he didn’t have the control to spot it on most days; therefore, he got rocked when wasn’t at his very best. The only other good pitch he had was his changeup, so Duncan tried to teach him the sinker so he could survive the days he wasn’t at his best, which with almost all pitchers is most of the time. He either couldn’t master the pitch or refused too, which led to him being absolutely horrible.
I’m not sure what happened at the end, but I do know that Anthony Reyes never had more than a two or three game stretch when he was a good major league pitcher. I don’t buy that it’s Duncan’s fault that this happened. If you have a capable guy at work whose production sucks and he can’t adjust to suggestions on how to make his work better, whose to blame?
Reyes had—keyword had—much better stuff
and was, as a result, much better regarded than P.J. Walters. We were valuing him the same way the scouts were—ace potential, injury problems a threat.
I agree with that assessment, but I'm just using Walters to point out that minor league dominance doesn't show what will happen at the MLB level.
Honestly, Reyes fastball velocity is why scouts thought more highly of him then they do about Walters. But Reyes always had little movement on his fastball, which is why he got rocked when he didn’t have pinpoint command. Will his command get better over the course of his career? Maybe. I’ve actually been plotting a fanpost addressing the struggles of young pitchers and how hard it is to develop them while trying to win. Clay Bucholz is a great example of this. The Red Sox think he’s going to be really good someday (as do I), but instead of throwing him in the rotation this year, they brought in Penny and Smolz and let him dominate AAA. The other thought I’ve wanted to explain on a fanpost is how a lot of really good pitchers were not good their first couple years of MLB service.
From what I recall
didn’t reyes regularly exceed 95mph in the minors, yet, because they insisted on the “low 2-seamer down in the zone” plan in the majors, often sat around 90mph-ish in the bigs, which clearly wasn’t working for him? I’m not sure he ever got the chance to pitch “his” way; not that I necessarily think he’d have been good, but I think there was a lot of stubborness from BOTH sides – Reyes not buying into the sinker, but Duncan not letting him try things his way when it was clear the Duncan method wasn’t going to work.
I think injuries have also caught up with him a bit since 2006…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
This is about 10% of the actual story.
Reyes was a top flight starter throughout the minors heralded as a #2 pitcher all the way through AAA. The Cardinals (namely the major league coaching staff) didn’t just screw with his “pitching mentality” they changed what pitches they wanted him to throw, tweaked his mechanics and altered his fundamental strength (the strikeout) because they didn’t like his fastball. As a result, Reyes and the coaching staff butted heads routinely. To compare Reyes to Smith and Jimenez is utter ignorance over the minor league careers and projections for these players.
This organization still has a real problem in how they develop pitching. If you talk to Dyar Miller or Brent Strom you get a different organizational philosophy than Dave Duncan or individual pitching coaches. The club hasn’t done well drafting high caliber pitchers but their schizophrenic message from the minors to the majors doesn’t help at all either.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was just implying that the flashes of brilliance he had in '06 were similiar to what we saw from Jimenez and Smith.
While I understand your argument, I think that some pitchers are overvalued for their minor league performance. While his fastball-changeup combo was too much for minor-league hitters (probably because he was throwing 94-95), you know as well as I do that fastball location is everything in the majors and he never constantly showed he could do it. Motte is going through the same thing with his fastball right now; unhittable in the minors because he threw hard enough to get away with mistakes because of his velocity, struggling in the majors because of lack of location and movement. While Reyes had a much better secondary pitch than Motte will probably ever have, he also was a starter who hitters see more than once, so I feel this is a very fair comparision.
you know as well as I do that fastball location is everything
Motte is going through the same thing with his fastball right now; unhittable in the minors because he threw hard enough to get away with mistakes because of his velocity, struggling in the majors because of lack of location and movement.
No, no, a thousand times no. Plenty of pitchers have wild fastballs they can’t locate and still stick in the majors. Plenty of pitchers throw up in the zone with effectiveness. Reyes lost speed on his fastball (any reasoning why is largely speculation whether it was injury, tinkering or some combination thereof) but it wasn’t because you can’t throw a high fastball.
Motte’s issues aren’t about location either. They’re about lack of a second pitch. He’d throw his fastball in the bottom of the zone everytime and he’d still get hit because the hitters can time it.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
it would definitely cut back on crowding the plate.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Aug 4, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Would the extra vomit on uniforms artificially increase the average GRIT values?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
i think your own blood (or possibly the opposing catcher's) is the only
bodily fluid that increases GRIT factor.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Oh, my bad
I must be thinking of a different metric?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
negative grit points for peeing your pants.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
does that count in the STAIN+ metric?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
from your mouth to skip's ears
try not to mention that in front of anybody who slides headfirst as-is.
The point I'm trying to make that I think you're looking over is that they both have no movement on their fastballs.
Guys like Carlos Marmol, Verlander when he was younger, Zumaya, and Dice-K can get away with having little control with their fastballs because they have a lot of movement and it’s harder to center. Motte and Reyes have no movement, so their fastballs get crushed more often (especially Motte because of no secondary pitch).
A few comments
Reyes started and won in the world series. TLR put the ball in his hand and Reyes pitched a game plan very well. Reyes reverted to pitching in a way that made his neck turn violently to watch balls being hit over the outfield wall. When he did things the TLR/Duncan way, he rocked. When he didn’t, over and over again, he got shipped out.
As far as TLR goes, who would be better? Who would you rather have as a manager – not because you thing they have better personalities, but because they would help in the “W” column? When you look at the first half of this 2009 season, what manager could get better results from the Cardinals than TLR?
Yes, he is often surly and yes, he has an awful hair cut, but the man works a baseball dugout as well as or better than anybody out there.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
Actually, I remember hearing that Duncan didn't give Reyes a plan for Game 1
He just said “go get ’em.” If you watch video of that game, Reyes isn’t throwing a ton of sinkers like Weaver would later in the series.
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 4, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
This is the way I recall it as well...
when Reyes pitched to his strengths (4 seamer/changeup) he performed much better than when using Duncan’s methods (2 seamers all the way). When he lost the zip on his 4 seamer he sucked no matter what he did. Whose to blame for the lost velo/injury might be another question.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
Considering
he and Prior both broke down after roughly the same amount of IPs, I blame USC.
There’s a reason they could only get a guy who they didn’t really care about back for Reyes, and I’d imagine it’s because every other team knew he was a ticking time bomb.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
it is a myth...
… that “Reyes was great when he did things HIS way but sucked when Big Bad Duncan made him throw differently”. what’s the evidence for this claim? this has never been substantiated by anything more than hearsay. in any case, it’s unfalsifiable.
Reyes never had consistent success in the majors. for whatever reason Reyes lost some mph off his fastball, which made him even worse, but even if he hadn’t it was going to be tough to do well with a straight fastball and inconsistent change-up. he always needed another pitch, and couldn’t develop it.
The limited samples we have...
of Reyes pitching his style vs. pitching the 2-seam way support the idea that he was better when he pitched his way. You can’t call that hearsay…it actually happened. I don’t recall how good his fastball was, but the fastball/changeup combo was successful for him more than once.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
i contend that it didn't actually happen...
… not the way people describe it. instead, i think TLR has been made into a scapegoat. even now that Reyes has flatlined in Cleveland it’s still TLR’s fault! how convenient!
look: Reyes never pitched “his way” in the majors except for one start in 2005 against a bad Brewers offense (no Braun, Fielder, or Hart) that was completely unfamiliar with him. by 2006, he’d already lost mph, was already throwing the 2-seamer, and sucked consistently after his first three starts that year. we have no counter-factual in which Reyes never learned any new pitch and dominated everybody. in fact, Reyes’ best start given the circumstances — WS game 1 — he topped out at 88-89 mph and heavily featured the 2-seamer. and he also dominated AAA after TLR/Dunc made him learn (and throw) the 2-seamer. we have no evidence that that Reyes stopped throwing the pitch as soon as he got to Memphis. and if he did, and refused to refine a new pitch despite instructions from the major-league team, then he’s got nobody to blame but himself.
we don’t have any “limited sample” of Reyes pitching “his way” and having success in the majors. it’s a total myth.
Wrong on so many counts
When he first came up, he was a highly touted pitcher, with 3 average-to-great pitches (4-seamer, change, slider or curve) allowing him to dominate at every level he played. He pitched well at the MLB level in 2005 and his first 3 starts of 2006, then after several articles/interviews stated that Duncan wanted him to greater implement the 2-seamer, he struggled with command & velocity. He went from being a 94mph, strike-throwing/strikeout machine without Duncan’s input to an 89mph mess afterwards.
That he would dominate AAA hitters after spending time with the ML club was basically immaterial – he was kicking their ass before, we should expect the same later (especially considering the rumors of philosophical differences between Duncan & Dyar Miller that would allow him to revert back to his old form & effectiveness).
It’s very possible that Reyes was not a very good student with learning the 2-seamer. Some of that may be mental (not willing to put forth the work, being bullheaded), some of that may have been frustration with the pitch not working (which has been documented in the past). It’s also fairly obvious that implementing that pitch affected his mechanics, so much so that he lost 5mph and the ability to consistently throw strikes after posting >4:1 K/BB ratios in the minors.
And don’t bring in Mark Prior to justify your thoughts on Reyes. Prior had several odd injuries and gained a reputation as a hypochondriac/malingerer 10 times worse than was attributed to J.D. Drew. He had many issues that could be attributed to his downfall that were more important than them both applying mechanics learned at USC.
There is a quote that I like that says, “The one common denominator in all of your failed relationships is you.” Reyes had the stuff to succeed in the majors and showed signs of real ability (pre-Duncan, minor league stints). Insert the 2-seamer into the discussion and all of these problems arise. As I said before, there is nothing inherently wrong with the coaching staff trying to teach a useful pitch to a kid who has room for improvement. The wisdom is in seeing that things aren’t working and that a different approach must be taken.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Aug 4, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i never said a word about Prior...
… that was Mr. Playoff Beard.
i’m sorry, but i don’t believe that Reyes pitched 3 great games in 2006 without Duncan giving him any instruction at all, and then Duncan decided to start messing with him. as i recall, Reyes was instructed to work on the 2-seamer in ST of 2006 (if not earlier), he was fine in AAA and his first few starts in the bigs until teams got some views of him. then: no good anymore.
i know we’re going to continue to disagree, so i’m not going on any longer.
Fair enough on the Prior thing
WRT the 2-seamer and ST2006, it was widely documented that Reyes did not work on that pitch down in Memphis to the satisfaction of the coaching staff. It was only after they insisted on him using it (when they had to keep him with the big club) did the problems start.
If you don’t want to continue to discuss this issue and want to maintain your position that flies in the face of facts and highly substantiated speculation (read: more likely the truth than not), I can agree to not talk to you about it.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Aug 4, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
all4tookie posted this link below...
… it’s from March, 2006 (i.e. Spring Training) and LB is discussing Reyes learning the 2-seamer during ST. if he didn’t continue that work in Memphis, then he’s a dumbass, and Dyer Miller should’ve been fired immediately. but it’s simply a fallacy that it wasn’t a work in progress before the 2006 season started. and therefore i don’t buy any argument that his first three outings in 2006 didn’t include 2-seamers.
link.
His best start undoubtedly is the...
1 hit complete game loss to the White Sox…I don’t recall what/how hard he was throwing in either game.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
I was at the game...
He looked dominant. The goofy error that allowed Dye to get to the 3rd and the one mistake pitch to Thome aside, he looked completely unhittable. And that wasn’t a weak White Sox lineup either.
by MinnesotaCardinal on Aug 4, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It was actually proven
lboros did a whole piece on it. Check the archives.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Can anyone find this main page story?
Lboros looked at the pitches Reyes threw, which were least effective and how often he threw them.
Basically he found that Reyes was throwing his least effective pitches the most, especially with men on base. He was basically pitching backwards and giving himself less of a chance to succeed.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it this
one? Doesn’t seem to provide the analysis but is venting concern on the issue. The one you are thinking of was probably written about the same time.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
one of my only useful skills is running internet searches.
is this it? anthony reyes and RISP.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
i remember that post...
… and i also remember my reaction to it at the time: all lboros showed was that Reyes’ 2-seamer was less effective than his 4-seamer. i’ve never disputed that. (but IIRC lboros’ analysis also showed that the 4-seamer wasn’t especially good either; just not quite as bad as the 2-seamer.)
in any case, that does not prove the counterfactual that Reyes’ 4-seamer would be equally effective if he stopped throwing a 2-seamer, much less that it would have been more effective. hitters make adjustments, and they know what a pitcher’s repertoire is. that’s why having more than two pitches is important: it makes it difficult for hitters to sit on anything.
for example, one of the posters here recently demonstrated that Wainwright’s fastball is a negative pitch. in fact, it’s a really, really poor pitch (something like -26 runs this season, IIRC). but that doesn’t mean that he should stop throwing a fastball. why? because his fastball is necessary to keep hitters “honest” and make his other pitches more effective that they would otherwise be. in Reyes’ case, if he stopped throwing a 2-seam then hitters could sit on the 4-seam (partially because he had trouble locating his changeup or breaking ball) and crush it.
and i still think that it’s instructive that Reyes continued to dominate AAA — but be ineffective in the bigs — long after he started throwing the 2-seamer, and long after he lost velocity. if those results are too be discounted, then maybe his previous results in AAA are too.
it’s also instructive that he hasn’t exactly flourished in Cleveland.
Reyes actually had 4 pitches with the Cardinals
his 4-seamer, 2-seamer, changeup and curveball.
His 4-seamer and changeup were excellent, his curveball average, his 2-seamer awful. Which 2 do you think he was called on to throw the most?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
his changeup wasn't excellent...
… he couldn’t locate it. it was excellent in the minors, because minor-league hitters chased it out of the zone. but major-leaguers laid off it, which is a big reason why Reyes BBed so many. his curveball was worse. he literally couldn’t throw it for a strike. it was nowhere near an average pitch.
his 4-seamer also wasn’t “excellent”. it was better than the 2-seamer, but not “excellent”. at least not in the bigs.
again: if this is so obvious, then why hasn’t Cleveland discovered it?
in 2006
his curveball was excellent, as demonstrated on his fangraphs page. He was nearly 9 runs above average w/ his changeup in just 85 innings. That’s an outstanding change up. He, however, was 12 runs below average w/ a fastball that was nearly 2 mph slower in ‘06 than it was in ’05, when his fastball was 2 runs above average. Now, the fangraphs page doesn’t distinguish between 4 seam and 2-seam fastballs but everyone knows that Reyes’s fastball mph fell as soon as he started relying on the 2-seamer. My very strong suspicion is that the switch to the 2-seamer killed him in ’06 and ’07 (when his FB mph was down again) and was the main culprit in his demise as a major league pitcher.
in 2005...
… Reyes pitched 13 major-league innings, so let’s not draw any conclusions from those.
i stand corrected about his changeup in 2006. but it was horrible in 2007-08 (i guess the most recent memories are the strongest), even though his fastball and curve both improved from 2006-08.
again, we probably can’t change each other’s minds about this. but here’s what i know:
1. Reyes was throwing the 2-seam at least as early as ST 2006, so his early-season (and WS) success in 2006 must be reconciled with that fact.
2. Reyes’ mechanics did not markedly change from 2005 to October 2006.
3. Reyes’ fastball velocity went up (per fangraphs) from 2006-2008, and was only 0.5 mph faster in 2005 than in 2008.
4. Reyes continued to dominate AAA pitching as prodigiously as ever after learning the 2-seamer.
5. Reyes sucked every year in the bigs.
to me, those facts do not aggregate up to the conclusion that Duncan ruined Reyes’ career.
Correct
2. Reyes’ mechanics did not markedly change from 2005 to October 2006.
Correct.
They were crappy when he came up and they were crappy, and identically crappy, when he left.
I don't think
we will know whether AR is a good pitcher until he comes back from TJ. He had elbow problems before he ever threw is first ML pitch. That probably explains lost velocity and poor command better than what type of fastball he threw.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Are you kidding?
His changeup was great. I thought it was a curveball until people here corrected me.
see, e.g.,
this analysis that LB did in 2007 (tom s. linked to it above). Reyes’ 2-seamer was actually a more effective pitch than his 4-seamer at that point, and his curveball and changeup were both atrocious.
What?
reyes had one of the most effective changeups in baseball last season.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
when he gets into trouble, he ditches the fastball and turns to his off-speed stuff, which causes him to fall behind in counts
if those off-speed pitches are excellent-to-average, then why couldn’t he get strikes with them?
because, if you look at the nicely lined up table
with runners on and RISP, he throws:
53% curveballs
34% changeups
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
scratch that
it should be out of 200%, so it would actually be:
26.5% curveballs
17 % changeups
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
DAMN IT
I looked at the wrong table, last try (with runners on):
21% curveballs
15 % changeups
Also, breaking down his fastball:
With men on base, he threw his fastball:
Middle and up: 61 % of the time
Middle and down: 74% of the time
Or, he threw it down below the middle of the strikezone 13% more. Those downward fastballs were likely 2-seamers.
So, with men on base he threw his third and fourth best pitches (curveball and 2-seamer) more often than his better 2 pitches (4-seamer up and changeup).
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
whatever...
… per fangraphs his curveball was a negative pitch in 2006, mediocre in 2007-08. his changeup was good in 2006, and poor in 2007-08.
add that up however you like.
Are you sure about that?
I thought that when Reyes initially came up, he pitched great. He got extended coaching and training in the ways of the sinker by Duncan, and then proceeded to suck. He would go to the minors, revert to his previous ways of pitching, and dominate AAA hitters. Switching his repertoire did not work with his mechanics and threw him off-kilter, which played a big role in causing his ineffectiveness and maybe his recent injury history. He had 3 average-to-great pitches when he arrived and maybe had 1 when he was traded.
This is not to say that the idea of adding an effective pitch with the intent on making the pitcher’s job easier is horrible and should never have been attempted. It is just that trying to implement the same gameplan to every hurler that comes through the system is lunacy in theory and a goddamned disaster in practice. That’s like trying to instruct all grade school students in the same way, including advanced learning kids and special needs children, nevermind those that learn better by repetition or visual stimulation.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
yes, I think that's the issue here
In my opinion, TLR is a great manager of teams. He is not so great a manager of players.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I am not so sure about that
Tony Womack and Abraham Nunez come to mind. The Tony has managed to get quite a few players to play over their heads. The way Womack played in the 04 series against the Astro’s was amazing. Back spasms and bruised ribs, and he still hustled. It seams to me a lot of players have stepped up their games with the Cards. Tony’s doing or not. Grudz was never known for his glove, but played gold glove caliber 2b. I bet you can come up with a few names of your own.
Tony does not like insubordination. I will admit that. How long did Kline last after he flip off Tony from the bullpen, and Rolen was the unnamed source in the club house. They both had to go.
and how much of that improvement was Jose Oquendo?
I am unconvinced.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Glove is Oquendo's credit
but the suck it up and all around play goes to Tony. He seams to get more effort out of average players. That extr effort shows up in better all around play come game time.
Good information and good points about run-of-the-mill types playing well for Tony.
Is it generally acknowledged that Rolen was an “unnamed source” for grousing?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
I'm not sure the Womack
example makes your case. In the season he played here, he had an immensely strong incentive to play hard and well — namely, a chance to get another contract and remain a ML player. And to attribute his playing hard in the playoffs to TLR doesn’t meet the smell test. 99 out of 100 ML players are going to go the extra mile in the postseason.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 4, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
I remember somebody correcting me last year about this…in AAA he was throwing a 94 mph 4 seam but they changed his mechanics for a 89-91 2 seam and pretty much forbid him to throw the 4…which was down to 91 anyway.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
his 4 seamer had very little movement
It was a great pitch to throw when ahead in the count. He could throw it high out of the strike zone and get a batter to chase. But he could not throw it for a strike while behind in a count ’cause it would get tagged.
This.
I think you have it here.
No matter. He’s injured now, probably loses his roster spot in Cleveland to a younger uninjured pitcher and begins the nomadic portion of his career. He’ll probably resurface down the road- I don’t see him giving up on having a career.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
so when he's a washed up, 32 year old, below average pitcher,
The cardinals will sign him to an incentive laden deal, and Duncan will teach him the sinker, combined with great game plans, he will win 15 games with an ERA under 4, and then sign a 4 yr/$48 million with either Milwaukee or Chicago
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Aug 4, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't pay attention to the grammar, just let it flow...
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
too i have give up on grammar.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
you shouldn't give up on kelsey
i think he’s been through rehab a few times… but frasier really wasn’t that bad… and let’s not forget cheers
i’m not really part of the what’s he done for me lately crowd though… (but beast… c’mon… that was pathetic)
so i still think of him fondly and believe he can provide something to actually entertain me once again in the future
i have hope for him
by BirdsonFire on Aug 4, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"when Reyes initially came up"...
… he did not pitch great. he had one start in 2005, against the Brewers, and pitched well. in 2006, his first three starts were good, culminating in the fabled game against the ChiSox, and then the wheels came off. he gained 2.50 points of ERA in a 5 starts, and never put it back together for the rest of his career. incidentally, this coincided with him K-ing fewer batters and BB-ing more.
now, maybe TLR was trying to make the team worse by screwing his best pitching prospect. or maybe, just maybe, once other teams got some tape on Reyes, and once he’d made it around the league a little, hitters started to figure out that they could sit on a 93 mph straight-ass fastball and kill it. take the changeup, b/c it’s almost never a strike. take the curveball-thingy because it’s never a strike. just sit dead-red and wait until his misses location a little and leaves it fat. then crush it.
after that happened the first time (July 3, 2006 for those interested), Reyes was never the same. check out the game-logs: he was really bad. for his career he’s basically been replacement-level.
it looks to me like a rookie pitcher had some initial success, then the league figured him out, and he was never able to recover. it certainly wouldn’t be the first time it’s happened.
This is the opposite of what happened.
Exact flipping opposite.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Why don't we get a definitive
answer to this? Maybe you guys can watch tape of AR’s first 20 starts and break them down and then at least we’ll know what pitches he was throwing and the results. I’m not trying to be a smartass … it seems like a lot of these questions ought to be answerable with all the resources at hand.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 4, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Managers and PEDs
Here’s something that I wanted to throw out there. I’m not doing it to spark outrage, but I was thinking about this after a Goold 10@10 where Torre was interviewed regarding PEDs and his success. I found it odd that TLR wasn’t asked this question (except that the media is scared of TLR). How many wins would TLR have without his players taking steroids? Of course, this is unknowable. But, is it fair to say that TLR isn’t a HOF manager without steroids? His Oakland stint is permanently tainted by them. He doesn’t get his St. Louis job without his success in Oakland. It’s an unanswerable question, I suppose, but I was wondering what all of you thought.
Another part of this is HOF voting. The sanctimony of sportswriters in regards to players is nauseating. If no player from the PED era should be voted in because we just don’t know who was or wasn’t using, as some sportswriters have opined, then how can they vote in any manager from that era (for the reasons above)?
Furthermore, if players should be denied HOF entrance, then shouldn’t sportswriters as well? It’s their jobs to report on baseball and turning a blind eye to the culture of PEDs that infiltraded the game, I would posit, should mean that no sportswriter who worked in baseball from 1988-2000 and did not write about steroids should be allowed into the HOF.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
My thoughts
First of all, interesting post Danup. It is not surprising to me that LaRussa is not well-liked by people who seem to want their manager to be more in tune with the "I feel your pain" generation. He’s a throwback. I think it was SI that just did a spread on Earl Weaver. Basically he was a jerk, too, and had no time for chit chat with his players.
I don’t agree with some of your fundamental premises, though which seem to be brought up time and again about TLR.
First of all, Rolen. He has now had some kind of issue in every town he has played in. I think the issue is Rolen and not LaRussa. Everyone will say he asked to leave Toronto for personal reason, but I think it is more likely he had another "issue" and knows it is not in his best interest to look like a spoiled child again. I love Scott but he seems to have trouble with authority. Maybe he’ll be a good manager some day when he can give orders instead of take orders.
Going too long with starters is a subjective thing. I like that TLR gives guys enough rope to fail/succeed for more than one or two games. When Wells or Wellemeyer or Reyes finally run out of turns, it is quite clear they aren’t ever going to cut it. I’d rather suffer through 4-5 starts too many and find out definitively rather than find out it was a slump when the pitcher starts performing well elsewhere. It’s a long season. Patience is a good thing.
The Dan Haren trade. Why is that TLR’s fault? Jocketty gets credit for McGwire and Edmunds, not the manager. Why, in the case of a bad trade is it TLR’s fault? If you are going to dump on him for Haren then you have to give him credit for all the good trades. Trade evaluation should be on the head of the GM not the manager.
On Chris Duncan, I can understand his position. Chris was likely to be his LF for the rest of the year, he was a much needed power source, and the fans turning against him was having a negative impact on Chris and therefore the team. He had no choice but to give a full-throated defense of Duncan in the hopes the fans would back off and Chris would relax.
I think his skills at knowing who will be a good ballplayer are quite refined. He seems to know who to cut loose (Boyer, Reyes, J-Rod) and who are real ballplayers (he started Pujols as a rookie, has found a gem in Ryan). I’m sure there are other better examples that escape me, but rarely does a player get cut from a La Russa team and go on to success. Adam Kennedy is a good example, but I don’t think many disagreed with Las Russa at the time.
Also, let’s be thankful we have a manager who is pushing to put the best team on the field at all times. At least Tony cares enough to try to drive improvement. Mo has to make the ultimate call, but I like that TLR is making his view known as to what is working and what is not.
If the 13 man pitching staff is the crux of the arguement that LaRussa is a bad manager, then I think that is just a disproportionate logic. Basically, we are saying that his choice of the 25th man on the roster is a defining metric for success. Much ado about nothing IMO.
Just win
Disagreement
Brendan Ryan is not a credit to Tony, in my opinion. He’s gotten playing time this year out of necessity (the player we were going to start has fallen apart). In Ryan’s previous time with the big club, Tony did not show any signs that he saw Ryan as an everyday player, or even a dependable bench player (he was on the Memphis-STL shuttle for much of the last two seasons).
Regarding Kennedy: plenty of people disagreed with La Russa at the time. In fact, in my memory, the consensus was “Why the hell would a team release their only legitimate big league second baseman without another option?” If you’ll recall, most writers were assuming we would subsequently sign Ray Durham or Orlando Hudson or someone. So, I feel your recollection of the lack of disagreement with La Russa vis. Kennedy is incorrect.
by arch support on Aug 4, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
On Chris Duncan, I can understand his position. Chris was likely to be his LF for the rest of the year, he was a much needed power source, and the fans turning against him was having a negative impact on Chris and therefore the team. He had no choice but to give a full-throated defense of Duncan in the hopes the fans would back off and Chris would relax.
I broadly agree with a lot of what you say, Duke, but I have to disagree on Duncan. He was a “much needed power source” who’d hit 5 dingers all year (most in April) and has shown no ability to hit anything other than belt-high fastballs for power the majority of his now FOUR YEAR mlb career. He was injured and not performing, and atrocious in the field. I’m happy for TLR to defend a player like this in front of the media, and even to give him chance to turn it around by playing him, but the TLR/Duncan tirades blasting the organisation after Little Dunc was traded (it turns out, for a much more productive player whose wages are being entirely paid for by another team, AND who plays a position we have greater need at) was pathetic and decidedly unprofessional. I want them both gone just for that.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 4, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Starting Pujols is a credit now?
Bobby Bonilla anyone?
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
TLR was forced into playing Pujols and Ryan due to injuries.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
it is kind of creepy...
You get starts as a rookie when the old and infirm fall away and are eaten by lions…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Mental image:
Bobby Bonilla and David Eckstein/Khalil Greene being eaten by lions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
would never happen, of course
TLR is a dog person.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Does this make Tony a Roman emperor?
Gaius Antonius Larussa Veteranus would be his full name.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 4, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
If the argument is that he doesn't trust rookies
which is bandied about here ad nausum, you can see that when he finds a diamond, he doesn’t sit him on the bench. Yes, I think it is great that he stuck him out there from Day 1.
Just win
Colby. Rasmus.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Im not sure any of these names support your argument.
I’ll defer to Colby data below.. Ludwick had over 600 PAs last year and will probably finish in the top three on the team this year. Pretty good 2 years for the guy from nowhere. Adam Wainwright is poster child for bringing someone along well. I’m glad they didn’t rush him — he’s a star now.
Just win
negative rec on that comment. all4tookie is right.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Ryan Ludwick.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I don't know that a lot of managers would have treated Ludwick differently
I think Ludwick got more of a chance with La Russa than he would have elsewhere, in fact, especially since he scuffled for his first two months as a Cardinal.
As for Rasmus (I know this is a different thread) he’s played a lot for someone who’s had two significant offensive slumps and carries an OBP of .307 into tonight’s game, especially because you won’t find a manager in the league who would correctly estimate the gap, defensively, between Ankiel and Rasmus. (Brendan Ryan strikes me as another guy who fits as both a credit and a strike against La Russa, depending on who sees it.)
TLR was still saying on July 15 (!!!) that Rasmus had to earn his second half ABs...
over a then useless (and possibly still less than 100% healthy) Rick Ankiel. That is what I have an issue with.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
colby rasmus...
… has been 2 runs below average so far this year and we’re in a pennant race. that’s better than Ank, but still bad. why shouldn’t he and Ank have to compete for second-half ABs? neither one has exactly set the world on fire.
He never said Ankiel had to compete
for 2nd half ABs.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
We have an outfield rotation, remember?
Chris Duncan and Ryan Ludwick of course!
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
b/c Rasmus
blows Ankiel away in CF. Their defense isn’t even close at one of the most important defensive positions in the field. Rasmus beats Ankiel every day of the week. He has earned those 2nd half ABs already just by the way he plays CF.
by chuckb on Aug 4, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Splitting ABs keeps his glove/arm/speed off the field.
Anyway you want to judge it – eye, UZR, whatever – Colby is easily the better defensive CFer. Making Colbly “earn” ABs over Ankiel who is at best on par with him offensively and a downgrade defensively is stupid.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
competition seems to be TLR's young player mantra
right or wrong, that seems to be his philosophy on how to get the most out of his players. I’m sure, in TLR’s mind, by telling Cody he’ll have to earn his AB’s over Ankiel, Cody will focus more and be more productive.
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
I don't have a problem with telling the rookies that,
..and the underlying motivational factor makes sense. It’s when he actually doesn’t play them that bothers me. It’s one thing to say someone is breathing down your neck ready to take over if you get lazy – its another to replace the rookie for someone who is objectively worse at playing baseball.
Sure Colby has had heel and digestive problems, but he still sits far too often for other reasons or to get Ank playing time.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
what % is health and what % is other reasons?
we’ll never know
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
so the fact that
Rasmus is an elite defensive CF doesn’t matter? What about the fact that Rasmus PT dropped dramatically the minute Duncan was traded. I fear he is a pawn in the TLR/MO drama.
If you genuinely believe Ank deserves equal playing time to Rasmus this must be one of those days when you posted while drinking heavily.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Raz's time dropped since the Duncan trade...
… for a number of reasons:
1. we acquired Holliday the next day.
2. Raz is ill and injured. the P-D reported the other day that Raz has already lost over 20 pounds this year. he’s clearly not right.
3. Ank started hitting. his OPS is up over 60 points since July 22.
4. Raz stopped hitting. he (seemingly) hasn’t hit a ball hard in weeks, and he (seemingly) hasn’t taken a walk since April. his OPS has dropped over 30 points since July 22, in very limited playing time, and over 100 points since July 7th. that’s a major slump.
but TLR has been using Raz for defense late in games that he doesn’t start, replacing either Luddy or Ank. and Raz has still started 4 games in the past week.
he was saying that
but I’m always wary of taking what a manager says at face value. That’s part of his approach—young players operate within a framework of earning things, even when it’s obvious, as it is with rasmus and ryan this year, that they’re basically starters.
I think a lot of stuff goes through the prism of 3 Nights in August
and his comments about guys like Prior and JD Drew.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, not the first couple of months
I seem to remember something about making the All-Star Game and riding pine.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
The Ad Nausum "he hates rookies" isn't really an argument
he pretty much admitted it in 3 Nights. He said they were to be babied and hated when they have confidence without going through the ropes.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
This quote:
A manager that put less pressure on the team might still be playing with Anthony Reyes and Dan Haren in his rotation; he might also have panicked in 2006.
Not saying you were saying this, DanUp (does that make sense?), but I don’t think these things are mutually exclusive. We can admire LaRussa for his ability to knuckle down and win under pressure, and still criticize him for his handling of players or his television-punch-inducing hit-and-run habits. To do both is neither inconsistent nor hypocritical.
I agree completely
the point of a move from the “one dimensional” view of managing is the ability to see him as something other than a great manager or a moron who doesn’t know small samples from his weird haircut.
nice post Dan
i just finished reading a book called “Bottom of the 9th,” which is just getting into the bookstores. the book is largely about casey stengel’s last season as the yankee manager (1960), and as i read the book i was struck by how much stengel resembled la russa.
i never knew a lot of this stuff about stengel. like tony, he loved to be viewed as the puppetmaster -- he was constantly tinkering w/ his lineup (he even moved joe dimaggio to first base for a little while), playing matchups and hunches and hot hands, making up “roles” for his players which only he understood. he would make a big show of agonizing over his decisions -- e.g. whom to pitch in a certain game - and cultivating an image as a brainy genius. he went out of his way to make unorthodox in-game decisions -- for example, he would pinch-hit for his third baseman in the 4th inning for no apparent reason - that added to his mystique as The One Who Sees What Others Do Not.
he was always playing mind games w/ his players, running them down often (including mickey mantle) and meting out praise very stingily (and usually for ulterior motives). he was even more mind-gamey w/ the press, which casey alternately bullied and indulged as it suited his needs. his primary need was to be the center of attention, which gave him a power base and constituency that was independent of the team ownership.
it’s a good book -- there’s a lot more to it than just the stengel stuff.
by lboros on Aug 4, 2009 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
just to finish the thought
obviously the other similarity is that, whatever you thought of his methods, stengel (like la russa) won a lot of games and a lot of titles. a lot of people didn’t like him, but they couldn’t argue w/ the results.
Stengel did win a lot of games and titles
But, he also managed some of the greatest players ever to play the game. One could argue that, in that era, all the Yankees needed was someone to fill out the lineup card, sit back, and let the greatness on the field take care of the games’ outcomes.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Torre uses the bullpen a bit more than Stengel (or any other manager of that era), I suspect.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
agreed BGH
stengel and la russa both had incredibly talent-laden teams. stengel took over a team in 1949 which had already won 3 titles in that decade (1947, 1943, and 1941); he inherited yogi berra, and mickey mantle was already in the yankee farm system. and throughout his tenure the yankees had a “farm team” within the American League, ie the Kansas City Athletics, which supplied the Yankees with Roger Maris, Clete Boyer, Ralph Terry, Hector Lopez, Vic Power.
re La Russa, not only has he been supplied with great talent and a large payroll but, more importantly, he has managed within a very weak division. the pirates, reds, and brewers are all small-market, low-payroll teams who have not been competitive at all, except for the brewers the last couple of years. and the cubs only recently bumped up their payroll into the cards’ range.
over the 13 years, only the astros have put comparable resources into their roster. so la russa has been managing with an enormous advantage. he should get credit for converting the advantage into a good on-field record and a lot of success for the franchise.
but i wouldn’t give him as much credit as i give to whitey herzog, whose teams almost always were 4th or lower in nl east payroll - always behind the phillies and mets and sometimes behind the cubs and even the pirates. the cardinals didn’t sign a single star free agent during his tenure, and lost 2 core players who gussie busch wouldnt’ pay for (bruce sutter, jack clark). but he always kept them competitive, and won his share of divisions / pennants.
Herzog...
… fwiw, was a great admirer of Stengel.
Whitey was also his own GM for his first few years, which allowed him to adapt the roster to his preference. so i suppose he deserves even more credit than he would if he were merely the field manager.
Herzog
should be in the HOF, in my opinion.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it has to do
with quitting on team in the middle of the season like he did. He was also making statements like he couldn’t ask a free agent-to-be to sacrifice or hit into a ground out to move the runner over because it would hurt his stats and thus his upcoming contract.
I’m a big fan of Herzog (I even have his book) but I thought that reasoning was completely bogus. I prefer Herzog over TLR in many areas (handling a pitching staff is a huge one) but Tony absolutely wouldn’t make such a statement (and more importantly let it affect his gametime decisions).
I think you are
misinterpreting the Herzog comment. He was complaining that players wouldn’t do those things because they put their contracts ahead of winning.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Three Cheers....
…for the White Rat!
I’m going to boldly step out on a limb and say that, in my opinion, Whitey was a good manager. Throw your rocks as you may.
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
Whitey was overrated
Having good players is the only reason he won anything. Nothing more than a rat.
(just for the sake of being different)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
Remember when Coleman and AVS were called up
and he made them earn their playing time over Tito Landrum?
Oh wait.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
and Andujar
he made him pitch until his arm was completely burned out.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Good Old Walking Underwear...
…Where be your gibes now? your gambols? your songs? your
flashes of merriment, that were wont to set the table on a roar? Not one now, to mock your own grinning?
Yep, yep…
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
Bah!
You can say that about any manager. Name me the last team to win the WS with a group of shitty players.
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
Herzog is still my favorite manager
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Casey Stengel
was also the greatest “double talker” in the world. Have you ever heard him interviewed? he could talk for ten minutes straight and you would have no idea after what he said. You would just laugh and shake your head.
My favorite Casey story
While managing a minor league team prone to swing early and often, Casey ordered the club to take two strikes before swinging. After about the 3rd inning, the other club twigged on, and the pitcher began lobbing the first two over the plate.
Still Casey’s team managed to keep the score 0-0 until the 9th. Casey decided to send up a PH. The player asked, “Skip, is the ‘Take 2’ rule in effect for pinch-hitters?”
Without missing a beat, Casey said, “Nope. It’s just for the starters.”
The batter proceed to hit the first pitch for a HR and won the game.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
kinda like
eh, I won’t even go there
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I remain unsatisfied
that the amount of success attributable to Dave Duncan has been measured or examined. If it had been some other manager who stuck with Duncan, and would we be calling that guy brilliant too?
The parts of the job that TLR undoubtedly controls are my parameters for criticizing him. The lineups are often innovative; the double-switches often border on madness; his handling of the press is terrible. Benching or not benching players. Handling of injuries or players hiding injuries. Simple safety — what of Speizio’s drug problem, which happened after Hancock’s death?
I don’t talk about Tony La Russa’s greatness because I don’t know how much Dave Duncan factors into it, but by the same token I think it’s fair to evaluate the parts of the job which are exclusively TLR’s domain.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
(and yeah, the substance abuse thing is separate... I probably shouldn't have included that in there)
was just on my mind.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Tony's not a nanny.
Back when Mantle was playing, surely there was a curfew. Did that stop Mickey and Whitey Ford from partying? People who want to get high/get drunk/live recklessly will do so.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
the issue was that Speizio was coming in to work ... unable to work.
No, they’re not nannies. But if people buy into “the manager is supposed to set the tone for the clubhouse,” after someone died, you’d think “don’t come to work high” would at least make it into the official or unofficial policy.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Especially if you go back and look at broadcasts
Spiezio was uber-twitchy on the bench. The game he pitched in against Oakland, he was sitting on the bench bouncing his leg all over the place. Bizarre.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
We don't know how they tried to handle it.
I’m sure grief counselors were called in. Ultimately, Scott’s choices were his. Further, was it always evident that he was high? How should Tony have checked for this? Scott was one guy on an entire team of grieving men. Hell, Tony was probably grieving, too.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
I don't see how people dismiss W/L record
for pitchers (because they should) but they use it for managers. Jason Marquis FTW
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
BUT ITS THE ONLY THING WE HAVE
It’s made with bits of real manager, so you know it’s good.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Because what the offense does in a given game...
is outside of the pitcher’s control…not the manager’s.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
oh you mean in game strategy that we constantly scrutinize but at the end of the day if it’s a W then he did good?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Or simply the lineup...
turned in at the beginning of the game. Sometimes the lineup on the field is not the most likely one to produce a win on a given day (witness Duncan and Ankiel starting over Rasmus for many MANY early games).
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
so we’re back to using the prediction of a hot hand as a manager metric?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I can't make any sense of what you are saying...
all I am saying is that a pitcher has NO impact whatsoever on what his team does offensively (unless by chance he contributes with a hit or sac fly or whatever). He can pitch as well as Carp on Saturday and win or WW on Sunday and lose. The manager OTOH is responsible for the starting lineup, calling the plays on the field, and PH/double switches. In other words he has an IMPACT on how the offense performs.
W/L record may not be the best set of stats for judging a manager, but they are the best we have. They are just this side of worthless when evaluating a pitcher.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
I would disagree
with your assertion. I think pitchers who give up early leads definitely hamstring their offense by letting the opposing pitcher be more aggressive.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
okay...
let’s split hairs then. The point is the pitcher’s W/L record has as much to do with what the offense does as it has to do with what he does.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
I don't think
that is splitting hairs. Pitchers who consistently give up runs early in the game get less run support.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
the in game decisions and even lineup management
are far more marginal to have an impact on the game vs the guy that’s supposed to go out there and pitch 7 innings. People act like the lineup is such a chess master skill in reality you have your set starters for the most part. No professional manager alive is going use pujols as a bench player.
The starting pitcher’s performance has FAR more impact on W/L then the decision to play Rasmus over Ankiel. It’s not even close.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Going back to the original question...
why do we use W/L with managers but consider it absurd to use for pitchers.
BECAUSE IT’S THE BEST STAT WE HAVE TO WORK WITH.
There are probably at least five better stats with which to analyze a pitcher than W/L record…ERA, FIP, WHIP…
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
I'm already
in a “BECAUSE IT’S THE BEST STAT WE HAVE TO WORK WITH” is nonsense argument in a different thread with moocow.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Then what do you suggest?
that we don’t try to see if manager’s are effective? Actual W/L compared to pythag is a decent place to go…maybe W/L compared to pythag in games decided by (insert number here like 4?) or less is a better way.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
Stengel used to put annonymous quotes in the papers
about Mantle, private stuff and taking big old swipes at him.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Mantle was a drunken dick...
… i wouldn’t’ve wanted to manage him either, no matter how good he was.
...but we let you hang around...
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Aug 4, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you must hate winning.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
nah...
… but think of it from Stengel’s perspective: Mantle literally replaced DiMaggio (Mantle’s rookie year was Joe’s last), and the two were total opposites. Mantle thought he was bigger than the team, ignored every rule that everyone else followed, disparaged his teammates in public, fought with the press, and was just generally an ass.
his talent was immense, but he was a terror.
wow i'm totally shocked you would buy into
the clubhouse cancer bs.
Give me a team Bonds, Ruths and Mantles and watch me be a HOF manager. I take good ball players over good club house guys all day/everyday and twice on sunday. I don’t give a fuck about their feelings. There’s no crying in baseball.
Side Note: I could have HOF output at every position but since I’m not a professional manager I’m sure I’d run that team into the ground looking up at the Pirates/Royals/Nationals.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 4, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You don't have to "manage" Mantle.
All you need to do is write “Mantle” on the lineup card, sit back, and watch.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe he was a drunken dick
because he pseudo father (since his real one died of cancer right after the most devastating moment of his career) was submarining him in the papers and feeding him to the sharks everyday with the press?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
as great as Mantle was
He would have put up just ridiculous numbers if he took care of himself and stayed away from Billy Martin after hours.
He would have put up ridiculous numbers if he didn't destroy
his knee on that drainage tile. For as bad as he took care of himself afterwards, it all stems from that moment. His father died in the same hospital he was taken to because of that injury. That injury robbed him of a great deal of his speed, put him in constant pain and emotionally he was shattered because of it. He started to believe the myth that all Mantle men died young, so he said fuck it and literally tried to kill himself with ecstasy and excess.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
true, but
I remember reading “The Mick” and Mantle said he never did any of the exercises the doctor told him to do after the surgery to build back the strength in his leg. Removing how much easier that surgery would have been today, I think had he worked hard to rehab his knee afterwards the surgery wouldn’t have been as damaging to his career.
Very true
I just think he was in such a terrible mental state at that point that he didn’t really care. 51 was the same year he almost quit baseball, wasn’t it?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it was I think
I think Joe D was just finishing up his career and the pressure to replace him was already growing (plus his family issues). If I remember correctly, the play where he injured his knee was partly DiMaggio’s fault (or so it said in the book) because he called off Mantle very late and Mantle had to break away hard to avoid a collision. What a shame.
And like LaRussa has a tendancy of doing
Stengel was playing Dimaggio in CF when Mantle was clearly the better defender.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i am having some bad typo-fail
i are quitting grammar today
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
that picture
is when Franklin’s beard was still sentient. See, he’s facing Tony, but the beard is looking at you.
It follows you.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Somewhere over at BP
a few years ago I read that they had determined that the difference between the best managers and worst managers in the game was something on the order of 5 wins per year. That means that the difference between the best managers and an average manager is about 2.5 wins per year. I can’t find the link for the life of me or I’d post it, of course. Now, whether Tony is among the best in the game isn’t clear to me but, if he is, and if BP is correct, he’s worth slightly more than an average major league ballplayer in any given season. I’ll add that this article was written before BP revamped their “generous” valuations of wins above replacement player. Needless to say, I’m skeptical that the best managers are worth 2.5 wins above the average manager. In any case, their take is that La Russa, this year — assuming he’s the best manager in the game — has about the same value to the team as Brendan Ryan.
Boog :(
….sorry.
In that sense I’m all for TLR … because we didn’t hire a horrible manager.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
In their book
they said the good managers still lose their team games with in game strategy, just not as many as the really bad ones.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
maybe that's where it is
if it is, I’m going to hit myself over the head w/ it about 40 times considering the time I spent scouring their website this morning to find the link!!!!!!
it is...
all4tookie linked to it. It had an entire chapter dedicated to this.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Oh, what might have been!
I still cry myself to sleep every night thinking about the 2007 All-Star Game: bottom of the ninth, two outs, bases loaded, down by one, and Albert Pujols on the bench collecting dust.
/sigh
I think Tony knew...
that the Cubs had a good shot at the series, and didn’t want to give them home field.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
Anyone care to speculate - stat guys have at it - what this year's record would be had the team held on to Kennedy, Rolen and Eck vs . . .
Shu, Thurston and whomever you care to slot into short?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
we would have won one more game
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
because Boog is The Wiz Kid
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
what if we had held onto Ron Gant, Ray Lankford and Brian Jordan
instead of Holliday, Ankiel/Raz and Ludwick?
they'd be really old?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
How about Gene Mauch
This conversation about managers impact got me thinking about Gene Mauch and the Phillie Phlop of 1964. Here is a guy who ran out his best two pitchers, Jim Bunning and Chris Short, every other day trying to win a pennant. Blew his team apart, and yet he worked every year until 1982. The Angels even brought him back in ’85.He never won a pennant and made the playoffs what once? All in all he has the 8th most wins, but was he any good?
Oh, if the choice was between Tony and Dusty Baker who here would take Baker? Not me.
I have traveled back in time
I told the January 2009 version of myself that, in a game in early August Joel Piñeiro would face off against Johan Santana and the Mets… and that Joel’s ERA and FIP would be superior to Santana’s very, very good numbers. I said “not only that, but Joel’s FIP would be close to a full run better than Santana’s. When Piñeiro pitches we pretty much expect him to go 7 or 8 innings and put us in a position to win, every time. He also has one of the best mustaches on the team.”
The past version of myself went kind of batty after that, and last time I checked he was admitted to a mental institution in early March.
So, obviously I have proven that in the event of time travel threatening the timeline, alternate universes are created to prevent a space-time catastrophe (since I’m here posting on VEB and not in a padded room somewhere).
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 4, 2009 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
and now the August 5th, 2009 version of mattybobo
will tell the August 4th, 2009 version: “Thanks for the jinx. Joel reverted back to the Pinanta and gave up 3 grand slams in one inning to Fernando Tatis”
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Aug 4, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I should have known dividing by zero was a bad idea...
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
also, I think the pinanta was one of the ships that christopher columbus sailed.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
it was a joke.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Incorrect
No way TLR would leave him out there to face Tatis three times in one inning. The third GS will be given up by McClellan.
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
This is hilarious.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
OT: Wallaces #'s since the trade
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
10 43 38 7 11 3 0 1 6 0 0 4 8 .289 .349 .447 .796 17 1 0 0 1 2
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 4, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions
that looked more organized when i typed it. oh well
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 4, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
has he been playing at third?
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
yep. They want to give him a shot there
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 4, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
8 games at 3rd
1 at 1st, and 1 DH
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 4, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
oh yeah, and Duncan
is batting .150. 6 for 40 with 3 rbi
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 4, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
big surprise
Lugo has been a pleasant surprise… .412 wOBA and .982 OPS with the Cardinals in 40 PAs… granted, that’s with a .414 BABIP
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd Say...
…revelation!
:=8O
He can’t keep it up, but he’s earned his salt so far, and then some! Give the guy credit.
:=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
worst of all, minor league splits put out their half-season TZR defensive numbers.
he was -1 in 69 chances at AA, +2 in 109 chances at Memphis, and +1 in 12 chances at Sacramento. which means . . . our flippered friend was actually an average 3b this year.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
yes he was
an average 3b with an amazing stick
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 4, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
fair enough. REPHRASE
an avergage 3b with a plus average potential stick
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
by hoofhearted-pujols on Aug 4, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
does leauge average
refer to AAA level league? If so, that won’t cut it at the major league level, though he obviously has a little time to improve on that.
by cdb on Aug 4, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
correct me if i'm wrong
but i was under the impression that level didn’t have that much effect on defensive value. if you can pick it at 3rd in AAA you should be able to pick it in the majors.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
fuckkkkk....
… that’s what i was afraid of. i didn’t actually think he’d be average, but i thought he be within a standard deviation or so, which is good enough for his bat.
fuckkkkk…
we better win the WS.
by kindred on Aug 4, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I never thought his defense was *that* bad.
Of course, does this really prove that it is good enough to be considered “league average”?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
no, although it gives a little credence to folks who were saying that his defense was
improving. i would not put a ton of emphasis on a half-season on minor league defensive numbers. i don’t think there’s a lot of reliability there. they’re something, but not too much.
that said, looking at the defensive numbers for most of our prospects should give minor league followers some hope. most guys turned out average or better. descalso is having a good year. aaron luna looks more like a RF than a 2b; good to have some flexibility there, though. matt carpenter, my current prospect to watch (rising three levels through the low minors in one year!) has good 3b numbers. some of our marginal CF prospects are turning in nice defensive numbers (chambers, rapoport). no complaints in the OF from henley, jay, or daryl jones (who got good rankings even with some leg injuries).
we had some negative numbers. curt smith needs to not play anywhere but 1b and dh, but we knew that. disappointing in the middle infield was niko (nico?) vasquez whose 2008 high water mark has mostly faded from memory. jarrett hoffpauir still stinks at second and doesn’t hit well enough to play first. pete kozma had weak numbers at palm beach but improved at springfield in his defense. david freese has poor numbers at third wholly explained by his ankle injury.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Walrus's D
I think that the branding of him as having fall-down range was nothing more than a myth perpetrated by the Proven Veteran Propagandists to facilitate a trade. Them, and shallow scouts, who think anyone who can’t be a jeans model can’t defend and that every beautiful woman has a nice personality.
That said, watching this team is much less stressful, even if we’re getting three-hit by guys named Bud.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Better than being no hit by them!
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
i don't know about that.
i’ve heard other non-club people say he’s not a 3b long term. we’ll see: worrying about his future D is the A’s problem now.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I'll wait for more than a quarter sample in 2009
(especially when he was well below average in 2008) before buying into the belief that a ton of scouts — as well as my own time watching him — were completely off base.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
There may be many scouts
who didn’t think he could play 3B, but a nearly equal amount think he can. There were a ton of scouts who didn’t think Albert could play defense.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
I don't know what more to say than that I think this is very revisionist.
The prevailing opinion was that he was going to be bad at 3B and that it was merely a question of how bad. Not many scouts gave him a chance at being average and even fewer think he can do it for longer than 2-3 years.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
that's the thing, tho...
… he doesn’t have to be average to be a very valuable player at 3B. his bat will give him value even if he’s mediocre.
but to be a plus 1B/DH he has to be one of the best hitters in the league, which makes him (relatively) less valuable in those positions.
I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment
that his bat could make up for his bad bat but that wsasn’t the discussion point. The topic was totalzone showing him to be average at 3B. I just don’t buy that at all.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I think Niko Vasquez has more or less fallen off the prospect radar now.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
not familiar with TZR, but
average minor league fielder is not equivalent to an average MLB fielder? right?
there's actually pretty good correlation between minor league defensive numbers.
there’s a learning curve, but you would expect somebody who is a plus defender in the minors to become a plus defender in the majors. that’s different from saying that a plus defender in AA could be called up tomorrow and play plus defense. but numbers tend to indicate a level of skill that carries over to the majors better than offensive numbers. a lot of guys learn to hit AAA pitchers but can’t catch up to faster ML pitches with more movement. not many guys find they can field bad hops at second in AAA but not at the major league level. a lot of defensive skills like range have to do with raw skills like speed that carry over well. does that make sense?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I Don't Waqnna Discuss Wallace...
…if I close my eyes really tight, its like he’s still with the club. Really, try it, Wallace is still a Cardinal, LAH LAH LAH LAH LAH I’M NOT LISTENING TO THE REST OF YOU……
:=8/
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
Easier to read
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB 10 43 38 7 11 3 0 1 6 0 0 4 8 .289 .349 .447 .796 17 1 0 0 1 2
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
DAMMIT. They'd better repeat that.
Why couldn’t they have sent me an email or something?
I should probably buy that
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The Billy Bob Thornton-narrated one?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
dammit
I always miss that
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
holy crap
the cards season is 73% done already!
and Adam Dunn is batting .280 around the 3/4 point! wtf!? why isn’t that guy a DH by now?
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions
I want him to pull the dave kingman
and play on a team in every division in the same year.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It'll be a little more difficult for Dunn since he'd have to do be in 6 divisions
Kingman only had to be in 4
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
I think LaRoche for Kotchman
from the braves’ point of view, might be about the most nonsensical trade of the year. Trading a cheap, average 1B for an expensive and only-signed-till-the-end-of-a-season-you’re-barely-competing-in 1B. Woozle-wuzzle?!?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I feel like I need to go through some anger management
Trying to deal with Fanposts that don’t format properly, on a slow computer, with a unreliable internet connection, trying to design a T-shirt, finding a place to print such T-shirt, and trying to organize a VEB get together
I feel like breaking some shit. I think I am going to go hit the batting cage
Stat Whore
sounds awesome to me!
miss going to the batting cage…
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
You are in chitown...
go to sluggers!
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
oh yeah
I always forget they have them
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
In Chicago today on business
And I just happened to stop at Sluggers for a beer. I had some time after my meetings and I drove up to Wrigleyville and checked it out. I had never been to Wrigley before and all I have to say is…what a dump!
by indakind on Aug 4, 2009 5:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It's excellent if you want to be drunk, sweaty, and grinding on skeezers in a dive bar.
Not sure what else you could possibly want, but you won’t find it there.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
I like Wrigley.
Not so keen on the fans but it’s a cool stadium, IMO, and in a pretty decent part of town (short L-ride to some of the best blues bars on the Northside too).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Sports Science Proved
…that this actually does give you a power boost of 30 yards, at least in golf.
I don’t know how it’d do against a change-up.
taking golf balls off my chest
will make me hit my drives 30 yards farther?
Big Brother is watching...
i think
it was baseballs at those batting cages
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I remember the scene
just trying to figure out the correlation thepainguy was making with Sports Science, and what not
Big Brother is watching...
Are you sure he's not saying that hitting the golf ball "Happy Gilmore-style" gives you 30 extra yards?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
Yeah
the initial reference was to the batting cage scene though. smart ass fail on my part, I guess
Big Brother is watching...
hey
can someone help flim organize the VEB get together? is anybody out there?
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like I need to go through some anger management
Trying to deal with Fanposts that don’t format properly, on a slow computer, with a unreliable internet connection, trying to design a T-shirt, finding a place to print such T-shirt, and trying to organize a VEB get together
I feel like breaking some shit. I think I am going to go hit the batting cage
Stat Whore
that's awesome!
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
it just got sent as an attachment to some of the office workers
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
your avatar frightens me
good work
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
yeah
I too am frightened by it
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
wow
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
now, in fairness, many of those prospects are not "their" prospects.
they were acquired in trades for cc, victor martinez, and lee, or in other trades. if we traded wainwright and pujols and molina, we’d have some pretty interesting names in our farm, too.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Excellent point, Tom.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
also worth noting
that several former Philly top prospects don’t crack that list either.
It’s more a reflection of the Indians depth than an indictment of the Cardinals system.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I liked the thought of Todd as a talent/prospect a lot more....
before I saw him pitch. After seeing him pitch a few times, I wasn’t as impressed. True, the minor league results were there (which is of course worth more than my opinion), and I certainly wish him success, but I think he’s a middling ML middle reliever.
Apropos of nothing, I saw Perdomo pitch recently and was impressed with his live arm and the movement on his pitches. I still don’t understand that move.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 4, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
The inconsistency and not owning up to it is what bothers me
Play the best players, unless the better player is younger…then the vet has earned it.
Play the percentages, unless the gut tells you to do something differently.
Play through the injury, be a tough guy, unless you are hurting the team by playing injured in which that case, you need to own up to it or change the way you play.
Don’t be overly aggressive, like a rookie, unless of course, I’ve told you to swing at pitches earlier in the count.
I was watching the June 12th game vs the Indians last night. LaRussa took out Pinata after 106 pitches after he gave up a leadoff double and a sac bunt. Pinata had pitched great all night, only giving up runs on 2 out walks.
So, LaRussa brings in Motte to ‘get the strikeout’ with a runner at 3rd. What does he have him do? Pitch around Jamey Carroll, giving him an UIBB that involved a pitch out. The pitch out came in fear of a suicide squeeze, something that the Indians manager has NEVER USED IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER.
Motte throws 1 more pitch after the walk, a check swing groundball back to the pitcher that gets the runner out at home and gives the Cardinals 2 outs. Motte has thrown 5 fucking pitches.
What does Tony do? Bring in Dennys Reyes to face Victor Martinez of course.
One problem, Victor Martinez is a switch hitter who has nearly IDENTICAL splits from both sides of the plate. His slugging percentage drops 8 points vs LHP in 2009. We wanted an 8% advantage.
But it gets better. Against RHB, Reyes is giving up an OPS of 1.026, against LHB Motte is giving up an OPS of .997. That’s a 29 point difference.
Reyes would go on to walk Martinez, give up a single to the following LHB and K-Mac would have to come into the game and throw 37 pitches over the next two innings because LaRussa had burned through 2 relievers when 1 was warranted.
Stuff like that drives me insane. He gains very little statistical advantage, if he actually doesn’t lose some, and he damages he teams chances of winning by leaving his bullpen short the rest of the game.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 2:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You and me both, HL.
I have a question, though. I think that you are giving TLR too much credit.
One problem, Victor Martinez is a switch hitter who has nearly IDENTICAL splits from both sides of the plate. His slugging percentage drops 8 points vs LHP in 2009. We wanted an 8% advantage.
Eight thousandths of slugging percentage wouldn’t equal 8%, would it?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 4, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I originally had both as 8%
then changed it to 8 points and forgot about the other one.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe that calling that
the Nolan Ryan – Robin Ventura brawl is a gross misstatement. More like Robin Ventura ass kicking, or rookie indoctrination….etc. Nolan didn’t even care that he was beating the crap out of him with his pitching hand. Good Times.
Philles announcers about Toronto:
"Well they go out West after this series, this weekend, against the Tampa Bay Rays"
nolan ryan is a scary dude.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
...does anyone actually know how Boog got in and out of the doghouse, anyway?
I was busy watching him play hacky sack and lost track of that storyline.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Everyone figured out he was great on defense
and TLR said “oh crap”
I think the Nationals should take next season
fire whatever manager they have and install a computer that plays the best percentage decisions on a nightly basis and in the best situations.
If the computer wins 70 games with that team, fire all managers.
seriously, i would love to see this.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
heh
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
but then all the stat people would become Nats fans
their revenue and payroll would drastically increase, resulting in Pujols, Hanley, Utley, Lincecum, Halladay, Braun, Longoria, Yadi, Crawford, and numerous others on the payroll. They would win it all every year and baseball would be boring.
(and how do you eject a computer? unplug it?)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
this is exactly the problem i have with the criticizers of TLR
Managerial decisions are not made in a logical vacuum. There are so many things we as fans don’t know about – injuries, personalities, club-house issues, longer-term implications of a situational outcome. I’m not arguing that TLR is a good or bad manager; I’m just not a fan of acting as if we know more than him.
Despite his enfuriating personality quirks, and seemingly questionable decision-making skills, he seems to exceed expectations more often than not. In addition to that, the alternative is likely some unproven replacement. I’m willing to tuck in my anger – mainly because every manager will piss me off from time to time, and I don’t have a better alternative.
He maybe a curmudgeon, but until i see proof that he’s senile and ineffective, I’ll withhold judgement.
Oh m'lud.
Reliving the Reyes debacle was not very pleasant. Thanks guys. Now I’m gonna go kill some geese or something.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
Nice post, Dan!
Great thread overall. Engaging discussion fo sho.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
it's happened before
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
do you ever get the issue
where the previous comment you wrote pops up when you click the reply button elsewhere, and then upon writing your new comment is replaced? I get that probably once a week, and I’m not sure if it’s browser specific (Safari 4) or not.
I use Chrome specifically for VEB.
Works perfect.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
VEB runs a lot better on Chrome than anything else i've used.
Curse you, google! (shakes fist…)
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 5, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
safari is great in general
and even better if you use a Mac. Lightning fast, great tab behavior (I live for being able to click each tab’s close button without moving the cursor), and pop-up blocking, which is the only ad-interference I like to run. But then I’ve been drinking the kool-aid since System 7, so I am a biased Apple observer.
I’m sure Firefox is better if you like plug-ins, but I’ve never done much of that, and when my browser affiliation was still an open question the Macintosh version was dog slow and aesthetically all over the place.
safari is p good
my no 2 browser and my go to guy when i doing proxy avoidance to watch astros games
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
foxyproxy is good/easy too if you use firefox
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
that's what i was talking about
but while i’m using foxyproxy, i need a browser for regular browsing and that’s safari
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
It's my fault guys
I never should have messed with space-time.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Everything in life is space-time
the two are interwoven.
You did nothing wrong.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
if I type here
will it be a random reply somewhere else?
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 3:38 PM EDT reply actions
Question about the Mets
Obviously they’re kind of banged up. Was this foreseeable? Did their roster construction doomed by over-reliance on aging players, or have there been a lot of fluky injuries? Or both?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Beltran and Reyes shouldn't have been injured
nor should have Maine under that assumption
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't find it that odd that they are injured.
All clubs deal with that during the season. I find it odd that they can’t get well. None of them. I’d imagine there are a lot of legitimate questions you could ask their training and medical staff. I actually saw an article that stated some current Met players are afraid to report minor injuries. Which of course, causes a whole other set of problems-some injuries simply shouldn’t be played through.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Troy Glaus being shutdown indefinitely
value wise, have we lost the Rolen trade now? I know we don’t have to pay Troy Glaus for next year as opposed to paying Rolen for the extra year on his contract, but we also paid Troy Glaus to give us nothing this year.
There's also this dandy non-sequitor in Strauss's column
Glaus is a pending free agent who has not appeared in a major-league game since undergoing arthroscopic surgery last January to smooth muscle supporting his right shoulder. Difficulties throwing caused the club to expose Glaus to left field for the first time in his professional career.
Is it just me or does the mention of exposing Glaus to left field for the “first time in his professional career” seem to carry some implication of cause with it? Maybe I’m just struggling with the usual Strauss cryptographic language. . .
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
i think that's how he writes, so, you know, makes sense.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
If You Drink Enough....
…you never know what yer gonna do, or whose drunk tank you’ll end up, arrested for exposing yourself to garden gnomes at midnight. Sweet times, that…
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
As of right now
Rolen has been worth 5.6 WAR and Glaus has been worth 5.3 WAR. Rolen was paid $11 M last year and will receive $11 M this year and next. Glaus was paid $12.5 M last year and will receive $12.137 M this year. Rolen will also receive an additional $4 M from, you guessed it, the Cards. So:
The Cards will receive 5.3 WAR for a total of $28.637 M. The Cards have lost 5.6 WAR, so far, for $22 M. That’s a loss. Plus, since we no longer have a 3B replacement, we’re going to have to pay someone to play 3B next year. Oh yeah, the fact that Glaus couldn’t play 3rd this year cost us Jess Todd, Chris Perez + roughly $2 M. That comes to $30.637 M + Todd and Perez. Assuming we’re going to resign DeRosa to play 3B next year — since we don’t have Wallace to plug in there (his average defense and all…) — figure another $8 M for 2.5 – 3 wins. Right now we’re pretty far behind and we’re not going to catch up unless Rolen ends up next year as Glaus did this year.
everybody who is surprised, raise your hand.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
well done.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
reply fail (see HL's comment)
even though I hit reply…or did I?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
lineup - still no ryan; no ankiel
2B Skip Schumaker
3B Mark DeRosa
1B Albert Pujols
LF Matt Holliday
RF Ryan Ludwick
C Yadier Molina
CF Colby Rasmus
SS Julio Lugo
P Joel Pineiro
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Ryan is still hurt
but Lugo’s defense at short is pretty terrible
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
I suppose they cancel each other out
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
depending on how khalil is doing, this would have been a good day to play him
at short and lugo at second. i doubt khalil’s defense is worse than lugo’s at this point and i doubt he hits much worse than skip against a leftie.
if khalil is so sick he can’t start in this instance, then why is he on the team? i like khalil and i want him to get better. but if they’re going to call him up, then they need to be ready to use him.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I thought that too at first
then decided it’s probably not smart to put a guy with “confidence issues” out there against Johan in his first ML start in quite some time.
We face another lefty tomorrow, so I think tomorrow would make more sense for a Greene start.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
we'll see if tony plays him.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I thought they were making him a third baseman?
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Boog :(
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
When Ryan Comes Back
….it will be like trading for an outstanding defensive shortstop!
:=8D
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
Do you have the Mets lineup?
I’m headed to the game…2-5 so far this year, should I stay home?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
it's not on the p-d site or any of the twitter feeds. try the mets team site?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Thanks for looking, I tried and I don't think its out yet...
Might have to take my shirt off and bully it out of Manuel
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Lugo has 26 PAs vs Santana
with 1 BB, 6 Ks and 4 hits (1 3B) to the tune of .160 and a .432 OPS.
Brendan Ryan has yet to get a hit against him while Pujols/Molina are the only two with any kind of success.
I’d also like to point out going to Johan’s BR.com page:
PhilliesNation.com sponsor(s) this page.
HAHAHAHAHA – The Mets are a joke!!!
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Fail
PhilliesNation.com sponsor(s) this page.
HAHAHAHAHA – The Mets are a joke!!!
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
100 years of 'doin it rong'
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 4, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i like it. how about a faux-sincere:
“we recognize the baseball cubs of the city of chicago in their record-setting performance from 1908-2008. this century of ineptitude remains unprecedented in the history of baseball. gentlemen, we salute you.”
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I just bought it!
Now I need to figure out the best way to state my thoughts on the 08 cubs. Keep the ideas coming!
by _pistol_ on Aug 4, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Awesome.
Fanpost this and make a poll/vote.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
never!
[changes sig]
AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
ok, fine... i'm not better and i never will be
but personally… i don’t know why i need to get screwed in this whole avenging boog scenario
couldn’t it at least be the other team?
Anyone else hoping Marquis
shuts the cubs down similar to how he seemed to shut the cards down? or do we want the cubs to lose 21-20, in the 22nd inning, after they give up back-to-back-to-back home runs?
Big Brother is watching...
I want the Cubs to lose a 1-0 game in the 57 inning
On a infield bunt that goes for a in the park homerun (imagine Benny Hill Music playing)
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 4, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
an infield bunt?
are there a lot of outfield bunts?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
just wait
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Aug 4, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
alt. answer
amaury marti
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Aug 4, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
prob. pitchers are Cueto and Lehr.....
AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Sorry, was looking ahead at each team's schedules
I’m hoping the cubs go 3-6 or 2-7 in their next 9 games. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
Big Brother is watching...
i don't know if it got discussed, but the cognitive dissonance caption is wonderful.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
+1
forgot about that, but when I read it I thought it was genius
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 4, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Line-up posted above has Colby in CF, but Yahoo and ESPN both have Ankiel starting instead
Does anyone know the story?
Boog just did his DeNiro again
a little salute back to the studio, then when begged for his impression, indicated his stache and broke it out. But he’s not going to push it.
For the record, Boog is not worried about Albert.
AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
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