Tipping Pitches
Now that the obligatory "Smoltz has been tipping his pitches and has ironed out the flaw thanks to Dave Duncan/Chris Carpenter/Albert Pujols" article has come out, I'm just wondering: Is it all bullcrap? Is there anything to this story when it comes out? Obviously it can't always be true, but I wonder if it's ever true. Within my experience there are only a few specific ways I know of to tip pitches, and they aren't that difficult to iron out.
Messing with the glove is the main one- a pitcher who just reaches into his glove and immediately starts his windup is probably throwing a pitch with a simple grip, while a twist of the glove hand wrist can indicate a grip change. Otherwise, there are release point changes, but pitchers often can succeed with pretty significant release point differences (ala David Cone, Bronson Arroyo).
Basically, I'm wondering if there are any other big tips. I'm not really interested in Smoltz specifically, because it seems obvious that the reasons for his success were his good splitter and slider, keeping the ball down, and maybe the extra MPH he was getting on his FB yesterday.
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Well...
You have to admit that something doesn’t fit here. Smoltz was pitching for the Red Sox with an ERA North of 8.00. He then comes to St. Louis and proceeds to throw 9 strikouts in five innings, no runs. There are several possible explanations:
-He knows the National League better
-He has been refining his mechanics after an injury and just now pieced it together
-He was amped up to be out of Boston
-He is more relaxed as a Cardinal (more pie, John?)
Heck it could be all of these things. BUT. You can’t deny that the guy’s stuff is still filthy. He was hitting low to mid-90s on the gun. His secondary pitches had movement. And let us not forget that the Red Sox play tough teams like the Yankees and Rays over and over again throughout the season. If 1-2 of those types of teams figure you out, they will eat you alive.
I don’t know if Smoltz has been tipping his pitches. But if he can regularly give us 70% of what he showed on Sunday, then he is probably the THIRD best pitcher in this rotation.
You forgot one explanation:
-Absolutely nothing was different except the results.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
"But if he can regularly give us 70% of what he showed on Sunday, then he is probably the THIRD best pitcher in this rotation."
70% against a real MLB lineup will turn into several earned runs pretty quickly. Also, “THIRD” best pitcher? You have forgotten Piniero’s renaissance already?
by Ray Lankford on Aug 25, 2009 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions
One more thing
Joel Piniero was heard giving Smoltz some advice before the game started. It sounded something like this:
Relax, all right? Don’t try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they’re fascist. Throw some ground balls – it’s more democratic.
by JWO on Aug 24, 2009 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You left off the last part.
“Oh, and John? Just remember: you’ll never be good enough to represent Puerto Rico. Ever.”
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 24, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
winnar
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 24, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
tipping
a couple other ways off the top of my head:
- changing arm action (goes along with release points as mentioned)
- arm speed
- if a pitcher shows the ball early in his arm action, the grip will be visible
- some pitchers will have a quicker pace when throwing fastballs vs offspeed, etc
not to say that smoltz is doing any of these in particular – i haven’t really looked at his mechanics – but there are so many little things a pitcher can do that will stick out to a hitter that it’s pretty impossible to guess what he might have been doing.
When it comes to mechanical issues
I honestly trust Carp more than I trust Duncan. Duncan is great at gameplanning and the like, but he’s never seemed like someone who’s a mechanics whiz. Carp noticed a flaw in Wainwright’s delivery earlier this season, and that helped a ton. If Smoltz pitches well for us the rest of the way, and it was because of a mechanical issue, I’d assume it was what Carp said more than anything than Duncan said.
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
in OOTP 10
i have played until the 2016 season(yea i know, i’m a loser)…anyways, dave duncan retired and i made mike matheny my pitching coach…i promoted him to manager when larussa retired and make carp my pitching coach
that was just a really long, drawn out way of saying i agree with you
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
what's OOTP 10?
Life's a river, kid, you gotta go where it takes you.
-Wayne Malloy
by KerouacCardinal on Aug 25, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if Motte is tipping his pitches
Hitters always seem to know when he’s throwing a fastball.
by olddomination on Aug 24, 2009 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
FYP
Hitters always seem to know when he’s throwing a fastmeatball.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
lol
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 25, 2009 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Some day information is going to come out
that Motte is the only one that ever throw batting practice to Rick Ankiel. Then it will all make sense.
by Cardfanintherock on Aug 25, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Just think how good he'll be
when Mariano Rivera stops tipping his pitches.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
I'll point out one thing
the explanation is not simply that he’s moved from the AL East to the NL Central (and facing the Padres) as Rotoworld so snarkily offers up. His first start of the season was against the Nationals and it was a representative outing for his time in Boston.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
The Nationals area very good offensive team
And the Red Sox defense sucks.
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 24, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
very good?
or just better than the padres
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
No it's actually in the top half in the league
Dunn, Zimmerman, Willingham, Johnson, Guzman – pretty good lineup there.
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 24, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
So I guess
Smoltz’s next start, which is against the Nats, will settle this debate.
"The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert Pujols is better than you." -Jim Palmer
by tangledbrett on Aug 24, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Not quite.
The Cardinals defense does not suck (pending lineup).
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
Joe Sheehan
thinks Smoltz is still in the recovery / rehab phase, and that he’s going to continue to get better. The way I understood him, Boston gave him too short a leash.
by Ray Lankford on Aug 25, 2009 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions
That's
what Smoltz thinks, too. (About the recovery/rehab phase).
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
If that's truely the case, I'd be interested in keeping him around next year.
What’s the best case scenario for that happening? We offer Arby? He would surely decline, right?
by Ray Lankford on Aug 25, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd love to get him on a 1yr/$5m deal
something like that, if there’s any chance he accepts. We really need to add a #4 pitcher for well below market value, if we somehow can, to leave us some money to sign Holliday and another piece or two. If we can get a cheap, veteran pitcher with upside (Smoltz) I’d be more than happy.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 26, 2009 4:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Smoltz contract and cba
also put a constraint on Boston. Smoltz said so in an MLB on XM radio interview, that his contract when combined with the cba made it really difficult for him to accept a rehab assignment. The $35,000 per day clause also made it tough on Boston to keep experimenting.
When it came time to look for a new team, the Cards were in the unique position of being able to guarantee two starts (thanks Welly) and allow Smoltz to work out things in mlb games.
Also
they’re really not in a position to lose games by letting him rehab in the rotation. Every game they slip further behind the Yankees is putting another nail in this season’s coffin; there really isn’t much upside to them getting Smoltz fit and firing by mid-September if they’re 10 games back.
On the other hand, we’ve got a 9-game lead and we’re probably the best team in the division anyhow, and our 5th starter has been very poor so far. We have really nothing to lose by giving him a bunch of starts before the end of the year; worst case scenario is that he’ll suck, and our #5 was pretty much doing that anyhow.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 26, 2009 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions
or they rushed him up to the majors too quickly.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Who the fuck knows?
Could be a mental thing. You want a pitcher to have confidence in his stuff – you tell him he’s tipping so that he doesn’t think his stuff is that bad (maybe it is, maybe it isn’t) but you tell him some batters knew what was coming so that’s why he got hit so hard.
Somewhat unrelatedly, it really shouldn’t be unexpected that a pitching coach can have a dramatic effect (especially short-term) on a pitcher by changing one or a couple of things about mechanics or approach. If a golfer (even a veteran one) who has struggled gets a new swing coach, makes a few adjustments, gains some confidence, and comes out with a good tournament…is anyone surprised?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 24, 2009 5:41 PM EDT reply actions
/MooCowbaiting
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 24, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew a cow tipping reference was gonna happen
Surprised it wasn’t MooCow first.
Forget Christmas in July... every day's a Holliday in St. Louis.
by zoomzoomj88 on Aug 24, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
For some reason,
I love that movie.
[Homer shows Bart "Wonderbat".]
Bart: Wow. How many home runs you gonna hit with that thing?
Homer: Let's see... We play thirty games. Ten at-bats a game. Mm...three thousand.
Oh I concur.
Sometimes, though, my taste is suspect.
[Homer shows Bart "Wonderbat".]
Bart: Wow. How many home runs you gonna hit with that thing?
Homer: Let's see... We play thirty games. Ten at-bats a game. Mm...three thousand.
what movie?
Life's a river, kid, you gotta go where it takes you.
-Wayne Malloy
by KerouacCardinal on Aug 25, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I completely agree
It seems like people always need to find a reason for why things happen. The truth is that it’s probably 10% real changes and 90% random variation, as reasons why Smoltz was so good yesterday.
Thanks
It's probably important to the player...
You sucked, we changed something, now you’re better. That’s far more comforting than, random variation! keep doing what you’re doing, maybe things will improve.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
i guess, but smoltz is 42 years old and at the end of a long hall of fame career. he probably wouldn’t call it “random variation” or anything like that, but he should’ve figured out by now that even the best have their bad days, especially when they’re coming back from shoulder surgery.
St. Louis Cardinals -- 2006 World Champions
I think it's bullshit
look at the righty-lefty splits. He was only tipping his pitches to lefthanded hitters but not to righties? He was only tipping his pitches after the 1st 25 he threw or after the 2nd inning? His splits are stark. Maybe Duncan picked up on a tip but I don’t believe for a second that’s why the AL hitters were killing him b/c the splits are so profound.
makes me wonder whether
the other guys Cards mgmt has claimed were tipping had similar platoon splits….
He was only tipping his pitches after the 1st 25 he threw or after the 2nd inning?
Actually, that’s usually brought up as evidence that he was tipping his pitches. Smoltz usually pitched well the first time through the order but got killed thereafter. The idea is that the batters got to experience his tendencies and had a better idea of what was coming the next time they were up.
Thing is, all batters try to guess what the pitcher is going, and if they or one of their teammates notice that’s the pitcher does something consistantly when he throws a certain pitch, they’ll pick up on it. It’s a relatively easy and, more importantly, quick thing to do—if he does x, then it’s a fastball; if he does y, then it’s curve. Granted, the batter still has to hit the thing, but his chances in doing so are better.
The “tipping pitches” thing keeps coming up because the Cardinals keep picking up struggling pitchers; looking for tendencies that could give away a pitch is simply a quick fix by Duncan, and it’s been done with Pineiro, Wellemeyer, and now Smoltz.
Why does everyone fixate on tipping pitches
and ignores the “I was planting my foot wrong?”
Seems to me be the foot thing is the obvious issue. Heck, Randy Johnson credits a change to the way he planted his foot with changing his career in Sports Illustrated a few months ago.
Having one of your feet come down wrong would screw everything up, I’d think.
Because it's an off day and
there’s really not much to complain about but we still enjoy fuming about something!
Truth is, I don’t buy the tipping pitches explanation either, simply because we’ve seen this with so many Cardinal pitchers. But of course the people who insist it’s bullshit don’t really know in which cases it was bullshit and in which it was true.
And even if it’s all a pack of lies … dammit, I WANT our manager to lie about how we’re really helping our pitchers improve.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 24, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
A bigger issue
….for me at least, is that Smoltz was so frustrated with his mechanics that he was making adjustments from pitch-to-pitch during his last game with the Red Sox. The quality of his debut performance with the Cardinals was likely due to a number of factors—change of scenary with different coaches, ironing out mechnical problems, elimination of subconscious tendencies, the fact he was facing one of the worst offensive teams in baseball….
Thinking about your mechanics in-game never works
It generally makes things worse, and usually MUCH worse, not better.
I agree that facing the Padres probably made it easier for him to relax and just throw the ball.
I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.
Duncan and LaRussa
have mastered the art of sarcasm yet the media has not. Can’t you just picture Tony, Dave and the pitching staff joking about the tipping pitches theory gag being swallowed yet again?
Media demands an answer, the team isn’t going to give away anything concrete (real or imaginary), therefore, let’s throw the media a nice chew toy and they’ll go about their business.
Yeah, I find it ridiculous that John fucking Smoltz didn't realize he was tipping pitches
I mean, really?
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 24, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
6ly...
are they suppose to say something like…
“Well we found that he was sitting hits up fine but his cutter was catching to much of the plate so we moved it over a few inches. We also have him pitching inside more often the first time through the order. He wasn’t doing that before and it was leading to batters covering more of the the plate their second up and they were teeing off on him…”
Right
On an unrelated note, I heard that Ryan Ludwick gave Albert Pujols some good hitting advice to help him break out of his mini-funk. “He wasn’t keeping his eye on the ball,” Ludwick said. “His head was flying out mid-swing.” Pujols, arguably the greatest player in baseball today, agreed, noting that “It’s hard to hit the ball when you aren’t looking at it.”
by Ray Lankford on Aug 25, 2009 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
malarky
that’s communist propaganda if i ever heard it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
of course
we all know what happened when luddy detected a flaw in carp’s delivery
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Carp detected a flaw in Luddy's face
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 25, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
SURREAL.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 25, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Badoom CCCHHHH
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, Smoltz felt he was tipping pitches before joining the Cardinals
I can’t find the article now (probably archived), but it was shortly before he was released. Smoltz felt he didn’t have time to make adjustments to his delivery, and one of the issues was that he was tipping his splitter.
Definitely Possible
In my opinion, it’s definitely possible that Smoltz was tipping his pitches. I was just reading Torre’s book on the Yankees, and Todd Stottlemyre (of the D-Backs at the time) told Daddy Stottlemyre, after the Game 6 trouncing of Andy Pettitte, that Pettitte was tipping his pitches all postseason.
Even Rick Sutcliffe noticed during his international broadcast, and he was calling the pitches out before he was throwing them. Even though he had started over 450 games in the Bigs, he was cheating his mechanics and tipping his pitches.
Smoltz, being old and full of potential (injuries), was probably cheating his mechanics and maybe tipping some of his pitches. Carpenter seemed to be the one to notice, he’s such an unbelievable worker and presence.
I don't think anyone doubts that pitch-tipping is a possible explanation for a pitcher's struggles.
When a pitcher is tipping his pitches, we’d expect that pitcher to just flat suck across the board, right? I mean, if a hitter knows what’s coming, its easier to hit it. The problem is that Smoltz didn’t suck across the board. He was actually pretty good against righties, and in the first inning or two. For pitch-tipping to explain these discrepancies, we’d have to believe that Smoltz tipped pitches to lefties and tipped pitches after the first inning or two. For something that seems like a bad habit (tipping pitches) its pretty remarkable that he drifted in and out of his bad habit with such predicability. Its not impossible, but I’m not buying it (especially since we heard the same line about Pineiro, Lohse, etc.)
To me, Sheehan’s explanation makes the most sense: Smoltz is coming off shoulder surgery and he’s still in the rehab phase. This is also an optimistic explanation from the Cards’ perspective, as it suggests that Smoltz will continue to get better. Its not quite as sexy as a “fixed it!” explanation, though.
by Ray Lankford on Aug 25, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Tipping
Just because he’s tipping his pitches doesn’t mean batters, especially righties, can hit his ridiculous splitter. Lot of batters know they’re going to see a fastball 2-0, but doesn’t mean they don’t swing and miss or pop it up.
Very true
But I just don’t buy that tipping pitches is the explanation. It requires too much, in my opinion. Specifically, that NO ONE in Boston saw it; that his stark splits (innings and hitters) is solely due to bad luck or hitters’ inability to center the ball, as you suggest; that the Cardinals are seemingly the only organization that consistently picks up on this (Pineiro, Lohse, etc.). It just seems strained to me.
by Ray Lankford on Aug 25, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Tipping pitches as the sole explaination is a bit much, but Smoltz had a ton of mechanical issues, and he complained about how he had little to no time to work on them, which is why he was making adjustments from pitch to pitch in his last game. The simple fact he was doing that doesn’t speak well of Boston’s pitching coach. Who was around when Pinerio was there and struggling badly.
This is a very good non-St. Louis article from 2004 about tipping pitches. Not every coach puts as much emphasis on it as Duncan and LaRussa, but it is a factor when evaluating a troubled pitcher.
Thread FAIL
I am looking for specific tips that coaches/hitters look for- I don’t give a crap about Smoltz tipping because he probably never was.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Somebody
mentioned wrist pronation in another thread.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
When Smoltz breaks his hands...
…you can see different degrees of tension in his wrists when he’s throwing his slider versus his splitter from the CF view. His wrist is stiffer when he throws his splitter. This may have been visible from the batter and can be fixed by swinging the arm back toward 2B more rather than toward 1B (which would reveal the angle of the wrist).
Other things to look for (in general)…
1. Different elbow angles and heights as the pitcher sets his grip.
2. A hooked wrist at the plunged position when throwing a curveball.
3. A raised index finger when throwing a curve.
4. The glove opening up more for certain pitches (e.g. when you have to change your grip).
5. The index finger of the glove moving when differently for different grips (which is why newer gloves have sheaths for the index finger).
In general, to have time to process the information, you have to pick up the tip before the pitcher gets to the high-cocked position. After that, it’s generally too late.
I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.
i don't buy #3 at all
if it’s an issue, why isn’t waino’s curve getting pounded?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Aug 25, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
there's a difference between seeing a pitch
and hitting it. Waino’s curve has such a lot of movement that I think a hitter (possibly) sees it coming all the way, but being able to hit it (especially if you were sitting on a fastball before the pitcher started winding up) can’t be that easy as the angle, velocity and break is so different to all his other offerings.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 26, 2009 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Wainer definitely has a hit-it-if-you-can curve at times
Also, he doesn’t raise his index finger until later on in his delivery.
I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.
Completely agree
This is a big community — are there no ex baseball players who can give some examples of tipping to look for?
From my very limited experience I would say many of the tips come from the way pitchers grip certain pitches. Even when I was playing, you could tell when some pitchers were throwing curves by the effort expended to get the grip right. A fastball grip is natural. Some pitchers have to look down or work harder to get a breaking pitch grip right which tips the batters.
Dempster was tipping his breaking pitches that way which is why they gave him the glove wag.
Just win
not sure if this is tipping exactly
but does anyone know of any work on predicting the next pitch based on the previous sequence of pitches?
I’ve heard that professional athletes are often remarkably good at randomization (and hitting game theoretic optima) in terms of choosing left/right in, for example, PKs in soccer, or serves in tennis. Is anyone familiar with similar work for pitch selection?
I also wonder whether catchers might be better at this than pitchers
and if a pitcher shaking off a pitch might be informative
by brackenthebox on Aug 25, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
That's game theory
I am trying to get into that, but it’s fucking hard man.
Smoltz.
by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
my wag is that it’s literally chaos, which makes it impossible.
St. Louis Cardinals -- 2006 World Champions
by greenback06 on Aug 26, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
if it is, that's impressive in it's own right
Humans are awful at generating random sequences; if catchers or pitchers are able to do it at an elite level, I’d find that interesting, because I doubt there is much selective pressure for the skill.
by brackenthebox on Aug 26, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
There's one that has a rather crude name
The Boner Finger
Essentially it works like this: pitchers who keep a finger out of their glove while pitching will sometimes stick it straight out on certain pitches. Some do it on breaking balls, some do it on fastballs, some just don’t do it at all. There is a reason why the majority of MLB either keep their finger inside the glove or use a finger hood.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 25, 2009 2:34 PM EDT reply actions
heh, heh,heh, you said boner
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 25, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and hood
he puts the finger boner in the hood
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Aug 25, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It's just smart, healthwise.
Always protect the finger boner with a hood.
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 26, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
This thread makes me wonder
Could a pitcher go and intentionally ‘tip’ his pitches the first time through the order, say, by indicating curve, and then swap signals the second time through the order?
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

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