An Open Letter from Christy Mathewson
by DanUpBaby on Aug 21, 2009 3:00 AM EDT
639 comments
Dear Cardinals bugs,
It is I—the ghost of Christy Mathewson. I daresay I did not expect to be "posting" a column in such a fashion when I woke to follow this year's pennant race, but so many odd things have happened here in A.D. 2009 that to-day's peculiarities hardly surprise me at all. Nevertheless I have been asked by your magazine's editor to pen a new edition of my column, Pitching in the "Pinch", on the occasion of having left the body of your work-horse pitcher, Joel Pineiro, and I intend here to discuss my reasons for—and the efficacy of—this brand of hoodoo.
Onward, St. Louis partisans, past the fold—that we may learn about my friend Joel's year to this point, and his chances henceforth!
Friends, I am no betting man, but I believe it safe to say that before the start of this year's championship season you placed little of your base ball hopes on the shoulders of Joel Pineiro, the Pop-Gun of Rio Pedras. Following his poor performance in 2008, I hear, many of you found for him another nick-name entirely! While his control was finer than it had been in his Seattle heyday he proved so hittable, both within the pinch and without, that it seldom mattered, and his appetite for the home run was rapacious even in this living ball era. Some felt him but a mean approximation of a starter at all!
Surely his options were limited by age and arm-fatigue; he could scarcely expect to strike-out as many men as he did in his youth, when his fast-ball roared down the lane and his drop curve could be found at every corner of the striking zone. It seemed there was little recourse for the man, once a hero of so many young Puerto Rican yannigans. So when he approached me about enrolling in my by-mail instruction course I was heartbroken to inform him that, having died some time ago, I was no longer able to access my post office-box.
It was then that we came to an agreement, and a fine agreement it was—I would possess him, on days when he was called upon to pitch, and show him thusly how it was done. Some might call this method unorthodox, but it is not for nothing that my book is subtitled Baseball, from the inside.
In that way we trained, all through spring. As a taskmaster I am tough but fair. I said:
- Never walk a batsman. If necessary, allow him to strike the ball, but it is vital that he put it on the ground.
- Never allow a home run. I am told they are more common in to-day's game, but when Joel assured me that there was no hope of moving these St. Louis Nationals to the Polo Grounds, or knocking down the center field wall, we had little choice but to make it even more important that he put the ball in-to the "dirt."
- Never cause a batsman to "strike out." It was at this last instruction that Joel struggled most vigorously. But with pitch counts in vogue I was not about to let my young charge be satisfied with five or six innings.
| GS | IP | H | ERA | BB/9 | K/9 | HR/9 | |
| BIG SIX 1912 | 34 | 310.0 | 311 | 2.12 | 0.99 | 3.89 | 0.17 |
| LITTLE SIX 2009 | 19 | 128.1 | 125 | 2.95 | 0.91 | 3.79 | 0.21 |
It was as thrilling as you would imagine to be hurling fadeaways again as I had in my youth, competing with your oafish circuit clouters, giving them a taste of the deadened-ball era. But I've long told Joel that our success was unsustainable. For one thing, my brand of possession creates a hold that is tenuous at best—even the brief stints he spent on the mound, even though I worked as fast as I could, became taxing on our psychic connection. Furthermore, as was best dramatized in your documentary on the subject, Angels in the Outfield, celestial help is banned in the heat of pennant races.
For another thing—and it pains me to say this—recently I spoke to Brian Bannister, and he tells me that the pitching style I had cultivated with Joel was unsustainable in to-day's game, with its home runs and ill-fitting trousers and dreaded-locks. We discussed Bob Tewksbury and Carlos Silva, among other hurlers, and he convinced me that players who strike out and walk so few batters have such a razor-thin margin for error that they rarely maintain their lofty heights for more than a year! "Six," he tells me, "it may be that that margin is enough for you, but we aren't all so fond of 'pitching in the pinch'!" Maybe so, I say. Maybe so.
So for his last start of July I sent young Joel out on his own, and it was, I must say, a tougher adjustment for me than it was for him! Since then, much to my chagrin, he has doubled his strikeout rate and pushed his walk rate to a more manageable 1.3 per nine frames. That combination of power and control is much better hedged against what I understand to be the inevitable "regression" toward the "mean" of his home run rate. Another spectral pitcher of which I am fond, currently haunting Arizona every fifth day, survives on much the same gameplan.
Now that his strikeout rate is over four for the season, and not just over four but trending toward five, he will be able to counteract the inevitable mistakes that will come from pitching without my help. It is perhaps a more boring method of pitching, but it is also one that might be repeated in 2010. Seeing him now, after watching him in 2008—one is almost tempted to forgo his rough-and-ready façade and shed a tear!
With my work done here I must return to the great sporting-bar in the sky from which I follow the game. But I felt it my duty, before I left, to explain Mr. Pineiro's recent work here, and write encouragingly about his chances in future years.
Yours truly,
Christy Mathewson
P.S. It was I who dubbed the "mixed-tape" we Cardinals are so fond of playing following victories; I have long considered Huey Lewis and his News a concise distillation of everything old "Matty" stands for! Fear not—I have allowed them to keep it.
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Smithers,
…fetch me some bitumen from Cathay for my horseless carriage"…
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian consulate in Siam by aeromail.
Am I too late for the 4:30 autogyro?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
VEB needs to go steampunk
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Dan. You're a great writer.
Larry couldn’t have picked a better person to take this blog over.
Just great, great work.
I just hope you didn't give Joel your tuberculosis.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 3:27 AM EDT reply actions
Colby, noooooo!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
That reminds me of scenes in horror movies when they realize who the next victim of the killer is going to be
But it’s too late!
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
HE'S WASTING AWAY
I’m telling you, he’s going to have a stoic deathbed scene and HE WON’T SELL IT.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Than we will have to trade him to the Diamonbacks
So he can get some dry climate
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks ChristyUp!!
Wonderful post, and a wonderful seven game lead.
It’s back to Chicago today for me. I’ll have nine more months in the windy city—suffering for the Lord on the northside of Chicago at Moody Bible. I sure am glad the Cards have sizable lead!!
"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell
7-Game Lead
If you’d have told me that on this, the twenty-first of August, two-thousand aught-nine, the St. Louis Cardinals would have the largest lead of any division champion frontrunner, I’d have called you daffy. The Boston Milwaukee Atlanta Braves are closer to the Philadelphia Athletics Phillies than the Chicago Cubs are to the St. Louis Cardinals.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Don't You Mean...
two-thousand diggity-nine? I thought the Kaiser stole all the zeros…
;=8)
My hovercraft is full of eels!
:=8O
He stole the word twenty.
Chased him dickety two miles to get it back.
Shut up, Fritz™.
by Alxfritz on Aug 21, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
FYP
St. Louis Perfectos Browns Cardinals
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome back to Chicago, albrtfn
One may suffer as a Cardinals fan in Chicago at times, but this year it has been fun, and I intend to continue enjoying it a while longer!
Great post, DanUp!
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
by ChiTown CardFan on Aug 21, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Chicago Cards Fans
I’m also a Cards fan living in Chicago. The Cubs fans in my office are now gunshy when it comes to talking trash. Hilarious.
ditto
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm a little west of bucktown
south part of logan square, sort of in the middle of the city
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
cool. I'm in Logan Square too
although closer to the Logan Blue Line stop. How many VEB’ers are in Chicago? Has there ever been a meetup? Sedgwick’s or something?
I've tried to organize meetups before
I think there’s a lot of VEBers in Chicago, I’d say at least 6 or so, maybe 10 or more. so there would be enough to do some sort of get together.
I’ve watched a game at Sedgwick’s before, when I sat at the bar and had a cardinals shirt on right away they switched it from the bulls game to the cards game. shoot me an email if you ever want to meet up and watch a game. or maybe if we make it in the playoffs we could all meet up at Sedgwicks, I’ve heard it gets pretty busy there for that.
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
were you there in 06 when we won the WS?
If memory serves I was covered in champagne and it was basically a drunken feel-good cards love fest. it was awesome.
wish I was
didn’t really know about it then
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
up for a meet up
my husband and I would go for a meet up of Cardinals fans. It’s just never worked before. CFC, you should try again for the playoff IF we should make it.
Wish I could have been at Sedgwick’s for a WS game last time. I flew 23,000 miles in 33 days in late Sept/Oct of 2006 and I was lucky when I caught a game at all….
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
by ChiTown CardFan on Aug 21, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
sounds good
we have to kind of rely on the fanpost not getting buried by other fanposts though… unless we start some kind of mailing list
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Verily!
Let us all imbibe from our favorite libations in celebration of another victory by the mighty Red Breasted Birds upon the Ashen Bats!
If that's his original ball, I'm Arnold Palmer
by The_Fightin'_Marreros on Aug 21, 2009 4:32 AM EDT reply actions
i am still waiting anxiously to hear who everyone is
in the VEB get-together…
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
Black out drunk maybe
with your extensively pre-partying ass. lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
oh
i thought that was your knees in the corner with the girlie flip-flops…you hipster, you…
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
i am in the back
You can just see my teeth smiling
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
is that Joe Posnanski
in the middle with the dark STL cap? Now i am really pissed i went to the Chiefs pre-season game instead of The Gathering
and can we still order the CheBird shirts?
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
yeah
I was waiting for that group pic from Dan to put up a final fanpost
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
momup took all the pics
Dan might have a few
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
There is something 6ly wrong you guys.
My lunch isn’t going to sit well now.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright
I was just curious this time (HL actually got me) and OMG my eyes are burning.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Azru I have a great album cover for you,
as soon as I can figure out how to load it.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
What is that -- thing -- between her legs?
"I throw him four wide ones then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on Musial
touch it!
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, did I miss them?
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I sat behind her at a Card's game a couple years back
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
An unexpected visit from The Christian Gentleman
very nice.
BANDY MOAR DOWNWARD TWISTERS!
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Aug 21, 2009 6:53 AM EDT reply actions
rewatching Cardinals Live
Because I can’t sleep.
Brendan Ryan’s bit is the best post-game interview ever. “He hit it good… he hit it good.”
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
video
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
stache plus his incredibly huge veins.
Also the jpg quality is poor.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
He has a very 19th century look.
It’s not just the ‘stache, it’s also the bone structure in the face, the cheeks. It’s easy to imagine him in a Civil War uniform.
"I throw him four wide ones then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on Musial
He has a very 19th century look.
It’s not just the ‘stache, it’s also the bone structure in the face, the cheeks. It’s easy to imagine him in a Civil War uniform.
"I throw him four wide ones then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on Musial
Oh no! It's Rupert Pupkin!!!!
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
I guess he's one of those guys
Who is fantastic to be around when things are running good and a bit annoying when things are going bad. If you are a teammate. As a fan, I don’t know how you couldn’t be entertained by him under any circumstance.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 21, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
fun fact
Brendan thinks Motte is crazy.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
was thinking about it
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh my gosh,
he is amazing.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
Sir,
If it was you who was behind the mix-tape, why did they play the theme from Ghostbusters last night? Hmm?
I submit that the magic aether postulates another avenue of the paranormal. As Mr. Leach puts it,
Pineiro, with Ryan as the starting SS behind him: 8-3, 2.06. With any other SS: 4-6, 4.56
Less boo!, more Boooooog.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 8:05 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Fantastic post DanUp!
Nicely struck!
"There is one word in America that says it all, and that one word is, 'You never know.'" Joaquin Andujar
You forgot one piece of advice Joel was no doubt given:
Propel apples most bounteous of the sinking variety!
by mattyp on Aug 21, 2009 8:30 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Do you mean...
THROW MOAR SINKERS!!?
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 21, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
i have already ordered
Pitching in a Pinch and How I Hit…anyone else?
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
Pitching in a Pinch
is a great book. You might be kidding, but I’m not. I’d include it in a list of top baseball books. Might have to be a longish list, OK, but I’d find a way to get it in there.
by Youneverknow on Aug 21, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
while i am kidding that i ordered it
that fact remains i would be very interested to read it…Ted Williams Science of hitting still holds up pretty well but that is only 40 years old and not 100…
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
Looks like it's public domain now
INTRODUCING a reader to Christy Mathewson seems like a superfluous piece of writing and
a waste of white paper. Schoolboys of the last ten years have been acquainted with the exact
figures which have made up Matty’s pitching record before they had ever heard of George
Washington, because George didn’t play in the same League.
Now that’s an intro.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Aug 21, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Obligatory:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Conan-OBrians-1864-Baseball
By all that is holy, someone catch that sphere!
If that was any lower
I’d have to dig to Hades itself, to find the apple!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
conan's wife is the old school emo chick
i do not believe they were married at the time and i’m not sure if that’s how they met or what…
but conan is class
That's a rumor.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
and freakishly tall
what is she… like 6’2" 6’3"??
I'm sure she's wearing high heels.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
I see gingers in their future
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
No way.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
really?
i guess it really is just me then. i’ve been interested in about 5 gingers in my life time, and they all told me they’d never date a guy with red hair.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
nice
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
There are a lot of
women who feel that way in general. Sad but true.
Anyway, I’ve known quite a few red-haired couples.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
at least you are not bald
better to have red hair than no hair
Your going bald aren’t you?
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
not yet, i have way to much hair right now.
btw, i dyed my hair blond for two years to see what would happen, & it didn’t make a bit of difference.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
My grandfather used to say
you can have hair or you can have brains, but you can’t have both.
You can guess what his head looked like. Unfortunately, mine too.
by Youneverknow on Aug 21, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha
Growing up, I had friends who were girls who said they were jealous of my hair. So I guess I’m not actually very smart…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
yeah, but at least it's not red
so you’ve got that going for you, which is nice
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
The couple who own the karate dojo I attend are both red-haired
Nice couple, two red-headed children. Sometimes, it works.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 21, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
There was this monk named Gregor Mendel...
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Is the Boog highlight on stlcardinals.com
the one everyone was all excited about last night?
I was expecting more. Heh.
Oh, also, the recap notes that
we have a SERIOUS lead.
that's one of ... five or six plays. all not shown.
That one is Boog feeding Albert. There was one from around third base, some down the middle, and if Skip had found the bag, a beauty off the mound. And probably a DP. Oh yeah, and Yadi’s pickoffs went to Boog.
Boog’s defensive highlights have been seriously underplayed.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
onion article
If you like old timey baseball slang, i highly recommend this
Rilly-dilly Saskatoon!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Aug 21, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
WWL gussies up their lame highlight package
with thought-bubbles.
[shot of LaRussa]: I wish Pujols were batting.
Grand slam is booged.
[shot of LaRue]: Pujols who?
…I’m not sure what to say.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
remember when Joel was pissed at Jose Oquendo for not letting him start on the Puerto Rico team?
It seems as if he took that rejection and has been out to prove something ever since. Good for Joel…that’s the way you positively react to something like that; use it to your advantage!
Indeed
I regret to say that being left off the Puerto Rican national team triggered a pretty dramatic downward spiral in my life. Sure, my therapist says I’m just looking for excuses to drink, but he doesn’t know the sting of watching a dream you’ve never had to
play for a team you’re ineligible for be snatched away.
by mattyp on Aug 21, 2009 10:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Chris Duncan was released by the Red Sox....
maybe we can pick him up….I’m sure Tony could platoon him with Holliday in left. You know…play the righty/lefty matchups.
Platoon him with Ludwick, more likely.
That OF rotation could be reborn.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
like a zombie?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
WELL NOW THEY'VE DONE IT
Someone in the organization wanted him gone and now they’ve succeeded.
Not afraid to nitpick
...It is very rare
To release a guy that was on a big league roster after less than one month in AAA….
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 21, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, what does this tell us about the overestimation of his
Current abilities by the Cards? I’m not saying he wasn’t ever good. I’m just saying he currently isn’t even able to stick in the Boston minor leagues.
Minor league contract like Thurston has a minor league contract!
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
HOLY FUCKING SHIT
®
don’t do that to me MO. don’t you dare do that to me. my liver can’t take it man, it just can’t.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
haha, the Shyster is appalled by Brendan Ryan's clubhouse nickname
It raises eyebrows, but it’s an interesting appropriation as uttered by “JP”.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I was surprised to see that too
not that I even know many Cubs nicknames but Ryno just doesn’t fit Boog anyway.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
I think it's partly
The profusion of Ryans in the clubhouse. After a while they’ve got to differentiate.
But that’s still a … really weird choice.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, wierd, plus
“Boog” is about as perfect a baseball nickname as there is.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 21, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
"Boog"
is a family nickname. So probably not relevant to the cheesiest clubhouse in recent memory.
They are simple men with simple needs and a love of the 80s.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Why not?
80’s Cardinals baseball was a whole lotta fun to watch.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
the nickname or the 80s?
[not following]
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
my coffee is really, really not kicking in
sorry. Why not… which? whu?
/fail
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Boy am I not on today!
I was referring to 80’s baseball, when you said “simple men with simple needs and loves the 80’s”.
NURSE! NURSE! We need a pot of coffee to bed 3! STAT!!!!!!!
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
load it into the IV!!!
and yes, there is something throwback about this team.
….is that John Smoltz?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry about that, Late night and no Franklins to blame it on.
I loves me some throwback 80’s baseball. This team even seems to be running more than in recent memory. Maybe a good thing, maybe not, depending on your view of a running game and I know the numbers say not.
“We thank you for your patience. The flight to Conciousness will begin boarding at this time. Again, we thank you for patience in the delay.”
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
No, apparently, it's
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 21, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
That trend really doesn't need to start up again.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Not the Udder Action Moost of Us Want...
:=8P
My hovercraft is full of eels!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Aug 21, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Neyer on the Smoltz acquisition
I realize this is a day late, but hopefully it isn’t a dollar short. Rob Neyer cites the “comically absurd” BABIP that Smoltz sports and the fact that he is moving to a home park that is being particularly suppressive of power hitting this season, as well as LaDunc’s success with Proven Veteran starters (Ponson and Wells notwithstanding).
The question isn’t if Smoltz can pitch like he used to pitch, or if he can pitch better than he pitched for the Red Sox. The question is if he can pitch better than Wellemeyer and Boggs. And considering his still-impressive stuff and the advantages he’s about to enjoy, I believe that he can.
Neyer’s closing paragraph on the Smoltz-to-St. Louis deal:
The Cardinals have a big lead in their division already, and they’re piling on, and I like that very much.
I like that very much, too.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Me too
But as long as we’re building a comfortable lead (avast, ye GOBs), I’d rather see boggs get the fifth starter spot and smoltz work out of the pen, where any potential playoff contribution he gives us will almost certainly come from. Boggs hasn’t pitched great so far, but he’s pitched well enough to give us a chance to win the games he’s started, and I’d like to see the kid get a few more opportunities As a starter at the ML level this year. But I’m not going to complain too vociferously right now, since the smoltz start will make for some fantastic baseball drama and I’ll surely be glued to the tv as im sure we all will.
by mattyp on Aug 21, 2009 10:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If Smoltz thinks he needs some
innings to get his groove back, I’m all for giving him innings. Welcome to the #5 slot, John Smoltz!
The nice thing about a guy like him is, he just doesn’t really need a pitching coach that much.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 21, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
(heartily applauding)
Well done, DanUp!
I, for one, would like to hear Christy’s thoughts regularly.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 21, 2009 10:33 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
the prose was wonderful
the numbers are shocking! The similarity in the rate stats between the two are almost spot on. THe only glaring difference being the innings pitched. For the record, assuming CM did not make any relief appearances, that comes out to an average of 9.11 innings per start. Did he fail to pitch a complete game at all that year?
Back then pitching into the seventh
was just considered working up a good sweat.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
for the record
1912 Matthewson stats:
finished 12th in NL MVP voting – only one pitcher ahead of him
27 complete games
9 relief appearances with 4 saves
0.2 HR/9 Innings (this wasn’t a fluke year either – that is also his career average – 4780.2 innings)
we are quite lucky to have a Matthewson impersonator as our THIRD starter. Piniero is hardly mentioned in the awards discussion, despite his remarkable performance.
Of course,
the HR numbers came in the deadball era.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 21, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
August record (so far) 13 - 4
and could easily be 15 – 2. (WW lost to HOU 2-0, and Boggs lost 5-4 to CIN)
Carp has won all four starts and Pineiro has won three + McClellan got the win in his other start.
Reminds me of 2004.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
don't let it end like 04 don't let it end like 04
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Would you rather take a for sure pennant right now,
knowing we lose the WS, or roll the dice? Serious question. I guess you have to take the gamble, but man pennants are fun.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Well, that'd be one way to shut you up
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
I fear for my liver and personal property
if that comes to pass.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Particularly if Jeff Kent somehow signs somewhere and hits a walkoff HR in game 5 to put us in a 2-3 deficit
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
not if he hurts himself washing his truck
yeah, my heart would give out if we had another NLCS like 04
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
ill take a pennant for sure...
but if it was for sure would it be as much fun? Astros in 04 and Mets in 06 were two awesome serious because you didnt know Edmonds would make that catch or WW would break off that curve…
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
I am mostly less enthused about losing to an East Coast team
If the Cards lost to the Angels, it wouldn’t be so bad, imo. But damn… the best rivalry in baseball crap does not need more fuel.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm gambling
Because only two AL teams really match up with our top three starters right now: the Yankees and the Red Sox. I think we’ll have a tougher time getting through the NL than we would in the World Series.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
yes
the NL is a minefield. I still don’t think the team is ready for October. Built for it, perhaps… not ready. Not every team will throw the ball away and let us win the game.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
also, as fun as it is to watch a "clutch" hard-nine team
Waiting for the bullpen to implode is not viable long-term strategery.
(Wake up, Albert.)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I am most scared of the Yankees, btw
For only one reason:
CC Sabathia has the scouting report on the Cardinals.
Thanks a lot, Brew Crew.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Totally different Cardinals team
and he’s a totally different pitcher in the playoffs over his career.
I’d be much more scared of Beckett and Lester to be honest with you. Beckett is fucking unhittable in the postseason.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
is it really?
a.t. fangraphs
2008
Yadier Molina – 0 for 3
Albert Pujols – 0 for 4
Skip Schumaker – 0 for 3
Brendan Ryan – 1 for 4 (1 walk)
Mark DeRosa – 1 for 6
Ryan Ludwick – 1 for 4
Matt Holliday – 1 for 3
Khalil Greene – 2 for 3
2009
Matt Holliday – 2 for 7 (1 walk)
Mark DeRosa – 2 for 6 (1 walk)
Unless I’m missing something, since 08 he has seen the entire lineup except for the rookies, Ankiel, Lugo, and LaRue. Not many AL pitchers can say the same.
I’m talking about scouting. Pitchers share information. If CC knows, all the starters know.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd be much more comfortable
that the Cardinals are seeing a pitcher they’ve seen before recently than a pitcher they’ve never seen in the last five years. The other teams are going to have scouting reports up the wazoo on our hitters — regardless of whether CC knows anything about us or not, Girardi and Co. will have a way of attacking our hitters.
Sabathia is a good pitcher, but he’s never been great in the postseason. Beckett, on the other hand, has been lights out in the postseason every time he’s been there, and I think Lester gives the Cardinal hitters more problems because of his pitches and general make up.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
yes, but *everyone* has the scouting reports on our hitters
I’m saying there’s only one guy who’s seen them live. I’m talking about the edge, all things being equal — the scouting report, not the execution. I’m saying the entire staff, not just CC, would have an edge over the Sox. The Cards haven’t seen any of these guys, and here’s a staff that’s comparing notes because someone has seen them.
At this point, I’m not convinced the Cardinals can catch up to pitchers they have seen, so I don’t think that’ll be the deciding factor. It’ll be up to the opposing pitchers to beat our lineup, not the other way around.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Lack of familiarity favors pitchers much more than hitters.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
If you look at the last five...
World Series we’ve played in, just about everything can and has happened. Relatively weak teams in ’82 and ’06 team beat much stronger teams. Verlander and Sutton pitched like crap. Reyes and Stuper pitched the best games of their careers. The ’04 team, the best of the five, got stomped by a bunch of dopers. The ’87 series was decided by home-field advantage. ’85 was decided by an umpire… It really has been a crapshoot.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
You're forgetting something...
The ’87 series was decided by home-field advantage
And that fucking tarp. Stupid infield cover….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
That was 85. 87 is where Pendleton and Clark were hurt, forcing Tom Lawless type of heroics.
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
by tgreenfield on Aug 21, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
the variables that have determined the past five WS we’ve been have been so bizarre it wouldn’t have been possible to forecast. That said, here are my predictions for the ’09 series:
- Brad Thompson dominates the Yankees in games one and five after Dave Duncan brings the swine flu into the starters’ meeting
- In an attempt to woo conservatives, Obama tries to retake the Canal Zone forcing Mariano Rivera to leave his team and defend his homeland.
- The pivotal, series-determining play in game seven will somehow involve Brett Tomko and Joe Thurston.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
I disagree
Predicting who wins seems bizarre. The surprise is who’s ready and who’s not.
But come game-time, it still comes down to execution and good pitching.
Except for 85.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
To me the pennant...
is the objective. The World Series is a borderline exhibition.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
I want the taste
Of another World Series again
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't take a pennant knowing I'm going to lose the World Series
If the question was changed to:
Would you take the pennant for sure right now knowing that you will lose the first two games of the World Series on the road?
That’s a much tougher question. I like pennants to, but a lot of that comes from the chance to be a World Champion — you take that away they don’t mean nearly as much.
Do you think Cubs fans would be happy to just get to the World Series only to be swept by the Yankees in 4 games? I know I don’t.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
flags fly forever
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
If the Cardinals can get past Philly and their offense/lefty pitching
There is no reason to think that they couldn’t pull a stunner against the Yankees.
This team has a lineup that can compete with the 2004 lineup, and moreover has a potential legitimate DH for games 1 and 2 in Yankee Stadium (Troy Glaus), a position that was filled by the likes of John Mabry in Boston.
by olddomination on Aug 21, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
This is exactly why I don't but the "AL at a disadvantage" thing for interleague and the WS...
Sure, AL pitchers aren’t used to having to go out and bunt the baseball. Boofuckinghoo, plenty of NL pitchers suck at it, too. David Ortiz can’t play 1B? Oh well, stick him out there anyway, move your defense around, and drop one of you lesser hitters from the lineup. And NOW you’ve got an everyday guy available to pinch hit.
Meanwhile, when the NL team rolls into the AL park, that extra hitter in the lineup is a bench player, not one of the best hitters in the lineup which is often the case for the AL team. It’s bullshit, and I’m tired of hearing people thoughtlessly repeat the sentiment that the AL team is at a disadvantage.
V, b.
Its pretty equal actually.
If we assume that the two teams have equal payroll (and can therefore afford the same amount of talent per 25 guys), there is only a very slight AL advantage.
Yes, the AL has a person specifically designed to DH, but they also have to spend money on that player whereas an NL team can use that money to buy better pitching or a better 2B or whatever. So, all else equal, the it is more or less the same (studies have shown a very slight AL advantage).
Now in practice the two teams never have the same talent levels, but you get the idea. And I seem to hear the NL is at a disadvantage argument more than the AL one, FWIW.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Yeah...
It’s definitely not a major advantage in either direction, but it just seems like every time you turn on the TV during interleague play, the talking heads are carrying on about how disadvantaged the AL teams are in an NL park. Maybe I have selective listening.
V, b.
Yeah, and TV announcers always seem to forget
That the DH almost always gets at least 1 PH appearance
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
I know you said this once some other place, but I don't buy it.
Yes, the AL has a person specifically designed to DH, but they also have to spend money on that player whereas an NL team can use that money to buy better pitching or a better 2B or whatever. So, all else equal, the it is more or less the same (studies have shown a very slight AL advantage).
Do you really think that’s where that money goes? I don’t. I think it goes towards improving one’s bench players (since they actually have to pinch hit in the NL). So that money spread around might create 1-2 wins a year. Meanwhile that AL team can essentially take their best hitter, completely factor out his defense, and hit him in their lineup. The only teams with shitty DH’s in the AL are the cheap ass teams. The rest of them have a bona-fide stud in that spot — and it’s also usually one that couldn’t even play the field at all without giving back half his value. I just don’t see how this isn’t a huge advantage.
We’re not even factoring in positional scarcity here — I don’t see a lot of DH’s that wouldn’t give back a shitload of value due to being horrible on defense, so they would be a 1.5 WAR player in the NL but are a 4 or 5 WAR player in the AL. I would venture to say that the improvement per dollar there has to be more than the improvement per dollar that any NL team can get from spending that money elsewhere.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Maybe I'm Rip Van Winkle
or something, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen an argument that the AL is at a disadvantage — the opposite is what I always hear. Could you offer some examples?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 21, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Every single time an AL team plays in an NL park...
The announcers are always yapping about them being disadvantaged because their pitchers aren’t used to hitting.
V, b.
Hank Steinbrenner
something about pitchers and not running bases or some such shit…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I agree with this sentiment.
My goal is always the National League championship. It’s great to win the Series, of course, but it’s the cherry on the hot fudge sundae. The National League is more important to me than beating, or losing to, an American League team.
"I throw him four wide ones then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on Musial
Danup. that was very well done sir.
You do a very good job at creating a realistic scene. I can almost hear him saying exactly that.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 11:02 AM EDT reply actions
Big Six approves
Nicely, nicely done on the vernacular! Mathewson is my favorite pitcher of all time, and I have two copies of Pitching in a Pinch. Let’s hope Pineiro can channel Christy’s shutout record, or at least the innings, in post season!
SNOOPY 1 JUST FLEW OVER MY HOUSE!!!!!
ZOMG! I FELT LIKE A PRO GOLFER
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 11:49 AM EDT reply actions
This aerial coverage is provided by Met Life's Snoopy 2
I can hear Jim Nantz in my head.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Dave Duncan insinuated as giving unethical pitching advice...
Any of you read the BP Transaction Analysis regarding the Smoltz signing?
In the comments section, Christina Kahrl implies that Dave Duncan may sometimes suggest that his pitchers “doctor” the ball.
Anyone ever heard this before?
Here are the comments:
Christina Kahrl
BP staff
(11)
Yep, just saying that if he’s going to mount a comeback, there are a lot of things in his favor, not least of which is whatever tips Dave Duncan will give him. The man’s had success with worse clay, after all. On the other hand, it’s worth wondering if Smoltz’s straight-arrow rep might clash with some of the suggestions, or if he won’t be as open-minded as Eddie Harris was in Major League.
Aug 20, 2009 12:23 PMlinkPost Reply
BillJohnson
(2635)
Are you implying that some of Duncan’s “suggestions” aren’t entirely on the up and up? That seems like rather … strong … language.
Aug 20, 2009 15:24 PMlinkinappropriate?rating: 0 ( + / – )Post Reply
Christina Kahrl
BP staff
(11)
Shhhhhhhhh.
Link here
Sounds like sour grapes to me
especially since we’ve only had 1 pitcher accused of doctoring the ball in the last 12 years.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Anecdotally...
I’d agree. Still, it’s interesting. I’m not one to put all of our players and coaches on an untouchable pedestal just because they’re “ours” – however I’ve never ever heard DD associated with anything like that. Although it wouldn’t necessarily surprise me with someone like Jeff Weaver’s performance spike.
But what spike?
Weaver blew until the World Series.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
and after the Gambler, there were more cameras on people's hands than anywhere else.
I guess I’m not cool enough to understand the fine art of cheating.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it took him that long
to figure out how to perfect hiding the Vagisil in his glove? Kidding. Perhaps someone like Woody Williams would be a better example. However, I’ve never heard anything before in this regard.
Instead what you often hear about DD is his meticulous attention to detail and the loads of data and binders that he keeps on pitchers.
I thought I saw a laptop lately.
He’s upgraded?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, really?
So along with upgrading to laptops is it too early to say that DD 2.0 can work with young pitchers?
the binder is still there, though.
I only caught a glimpse of it, so some confirmation would be good.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He's actually a UNIX wizard
He does almost everything at the command line and still uses vi for text editing. GUIs are for rookies and AL coaches.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Just to clarify...
I’m not at all about baseless accusations. The tone of my comment/question is more inquisitive. Are there any pitchers that might fit the profile of possibly doctoring the ball? Hmm, what would that profile even look like?
I couldn't even tell you...
the gradations for this kind of cheating seem very nuanced… Everything from keeping a ball that has been smudged, to hardening one’s fingernails with that clear stuff women use, to smearing pine tar all over your hands… It’s hard to draw a line.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
great point
I wonder if Fangraphs or BP have ever done a study to try to isolate the effects? I guess it would be near impossible – just trying to accurately measure the effects of steroids – since you can’t designate a ‘control’ group.
what would doctoring the ball do? does it even jive with Duncan's results?
This sounds rather “they’re all juicers” to me.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
movemnent
You can get more movement on a doctored ball.
so..... does it fit with the results?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
You sure can
but they throw the ball out of play EVERY OTHER PITCH. Are we doctoring the ball every other pitch, and if so, can they teach me how to….please?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
that's what I thought
Molina calls for so many balls in the dirt, he replaces them nearly every AB.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, MLB
does go through massive numbers of baseballs. Anyone know if those balls are donated to a good cause, i.e., little league or something?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 21, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
They are for sale in the
MLB authentics store behind CF. You can go in there a buy a ball from pretty much any home game in the last 3 years or so.
The guy who really needs to come back to earth is Julio Lugo. He flat-out sucks, or at least he did until he sold his soul at the foot of the Gateway Arch. by Not Bruce Froemming BCB
unless Patrick the bat boy is in on it!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Difficult
I agree it would be very difficult to doctor a ball when they throw out every other ball. That is unless they use the old jalapeno in the nose to get some good not going.
LOL - has a player ever been thrown out of a game
because he actually put snot on the ball?
Like from Major League? Link here
Gaylord
Another famous user of the pitch was Gaylord Perry, who went so far as to title his autobiography Me and the Spitter. (For example, Gaylord would sniff red peppers to make his nose run or he would put vaseline on his zipper because umpires would never check there.) One sportswriter quipped that “Gaylord Perry’s 3.67 ERA was more than he expectorated.”
from wikipedia
I think my favorite doctored ball
was the “frozen ball” from Major League 3. I have no idea if that would even work, but the thought is funny as hell.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
A guy I went to college with showed me some things.
He kept his fingernails long enough to be able to quickly cut a ball. You can groove it in certain ways to make it move certain ways. And you can scuff it just a bit. That’s why they look for nailfiles. I can’t tell you how it works just that the pitchers learn how to make a scuff work for them.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That's crazy
but I guess plausible. I mean, Brian “Scuffy” Moehler was suspended for just that thing a while back, right?
we were just shown
how knockleballers dig their fingernails into the ball.. how is that any different?
Is that like the mythical gyro ball?
/ sorry for being a pedant.
by Ray Lankford on Aug 21, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Generally they dig into a seam
I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.
I have to defer to pain on this,
but it’s the wind resistence over the ball. If you cut it or scuff it in a certain way depending on what you are wanting to throw, it will give you extra tailing action or break in a curveball.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry about that,
he didn’t show me anything on knuckleballs.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent point
I wish Yadi took fewer balls out of play, not more.
I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.
I wasn't sure if that was Yadi or MLB that dictated that.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Yadi shows the ball to the ump. It's up to the ump to decide whether they need a new one.
Of course, there’s Yadi’s mental telepathy.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
and what does the ump do?
… he examines and decides if it’s okay to put into
circulation…if not he throws it out. it would not take him long
to find a doctor ball…i think the accusation is absurd
I dabbled in pacifism once....not in 'Nam of course
50 game suspensions aren't be enough!
We need to send a message, we need to suspend these guys for at least a year, maybe kick them out of baseball.
Wait, we’re not talking steroids? Oh nevermind that isn’t even cheating then.
Not afraid to nitpick
Mike Maroth, Kip Wells, Sidney Ponson, Matt Clement
by Ray Lankford on Aug 21, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
These were real men of honor
NAY! They will not sully their family legacy by partaking in any of this hooliganism.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
They can have their integrity
But they sullied their families’ names through their performances as Cardinals.
by Ray Lankford on Aug 21, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
of course Duncan's "suggestions" aren't on he up and up.
It’s THROW MOAR SINKERS!
Suggestion on the up and up leave the ball park.
by Evilfrog on Aug 21, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
to me
You can’t throw something like that out in public without avoidance to back up. I can’t think of any Cardinals who looked like they suddenly started “doctoring” the ball once they got here. I don’t know much about Duncan’s work with the A’s to draw any conclusions about his pitchers when he was there.
I remember in the old "Pursue the Pennant" game in the early 90s
Eckersley and Bob Welch both had “Special: SPIT” notations on their cards which could result in their getting thrown out of the game for doctoring the ball if you rolled the infamous “Wild Play” while they were pitching
by olddomination on Aug 21, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
A crackerjack posting good sir!
I only hope that our vaunted base-ball men can once again attain the trophy. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I must go start up the motor-car.
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Aug 21, 2009 11:58 AM EDT reply actions
What is this "motor carriage" of which you speak?
by olddomination on Aug 21, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
"I saw an automobile once when I was a kid
but now they’re everywhere. The world went and got itself in a big damn hurry."
by Ray Lankford on Aug 21, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do Flags Really Fly Forever?
What i mean is – would it really be worth it to win a WS if the cost was trading away a future HOF player?
Ex1: if the Tigers had won the 1987 WS, would that have justified giving up Smoltz?
Ex2: if the Red Sox had won the 1990 WS, would that have justified giving up Jeff Bagwell?
If you sold your stock options today
to buy a car to drive to Disney to spend the weekend, you can never take away those memories of that vacation.
But if you held onto your stock options for a few more years, you could make $1 M more and you could spend a year at Disney.
Would it still be worth it to sell your stock options?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
me too
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
so it's worth more to a team to have a HOF player
than it is to win a world series?
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 21, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm...what means more to the Pirates
1909, or Honus Wagner? Its definitely a debatable question.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Actually, thats not quite fair.
Because Honus won a title, and his memory is associated with that title. A better analogy for my point is a great player who never won a title…say Barry Bonds.
Would the Giants rather have Barry and all those years, or one ring? I say Barry.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Would the Pirates rather have Barry Bonds
or a winning season?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Pirates had Barry Bonds...
They would have a winning season. But the Pirates would have never paid Barry Bonds. So that’s a bit different.
Would MLB Rather Have...
…Barry Bonds or integrity.
ok,, loaded question…
;=8)
My hovercraft is full of eels!
:=8O
Barry, Barry, Barry
10,000x Barry. His OBP was .609 in 2004.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Great analogy
This is the exact spirit of my question – with a much better example than I was able to come up with.
Which leaves me thinking – how much must it suck to be a Pirates fan?
Gary Carter
or the rest of 1994 back?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
A poorly executed joke
implying that they won’t have any more HOFers, like the Giants presumably should.
The Montreal Expos
In 2003 would have had Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips, and Vladimir Guerrero in their lineup with Cliff Lee in the rotation had they not traded for Bartolo Colon in some bizarre attempt to catch the Braves.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And for all of that
Omar Minaya was hired away to be the GM of the Mets and lauded as an up-and-coming exec. Meanwhile he gutted the Expos and left the carcass to rot in DC.
That 2003 team could have had
a rookie Grady Sizemore and looked like this
Grady Sizemore – CF
Orlando Cabrera – SS
Jose Vidro – 3B
Vladdy – RF
Jason Bay – LF
Brandon Phillips – 2B
Brad Wilkerson – 1B
Brian Schneider – C
And a rotation of Livan Hernandez, Cliff Lee, Javier Vasquez, Carl Pavano and Toma Ohka
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
more likely
they could have kept some of those players for a while and traded them away at their peak value – montreal could not afford – even had they started winning – to keep that team together.
All those players were under the age of 28
and all were still making league minimum or arbitration. One playoff appearance would have paid for that payroll for 3 years.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
...in Loonies
which, if memory serves, surpassed the value of the USD at least briefly at some point in the last few years.
In 2005
that 8 player lineup would have cost $30 M in payroll (not including bench and rotation). $11 of that is Vlad.
The Nationals payroll that year was $48 M.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
i
stand corrected. Interesting exercise. Follow up question then. Should a small market team have the same approach to building a team as a mid-market team?
Hypothetically
if they’d have won the WS in Montreal with Colon after that (ridiculous) trade – what are the chances they’d still be in Montreal?
If they had beaten the Dodgers in 1981
or made the playoffs in 1994, they’d still be in Montreal.
The only two times they made (or would have made) the playoffs were in strike shortened seasons.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
IMO, this is the greatest strike-related tragedy
or made the playoffs in 1994, they’d still be in Montreal.
Back in the early 1980’s, I vividly remember what kind of great crowds they had up there. Montreal supported that team pretty darn well, all things considered. In ’81, for example, they were 3rd in the NL in attendance in that awful cave of a baseball stadium. Yes, that is and will always be a hockey town, but they could support a MLB team.
In 1994, that team was really, really good…and then the strike torpedoed their season. They lost a season where they were 74-40 and had Larry Walker and Moises Alou just entering their primes. They had a 22 year old Pedro Martinez. Ken Hill was having a respectable season and Jeff Fassero was pitching really well. That would have been a tough team to beat in the postseason and had the makings of a good team for some years. A ring or even a playoff appearance would have probably boosted the fortunes of that organization…but it’s been all downhill since instead.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 21, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Giants fans?
Or the Giants front office?
I would guess the fans would want the title and the front office would want Barry, because he made them a ridiculous amount of money by putting asses in seats for years.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
but Pittsburg won in 1960, 71 & 79
if their only WS title was 1909, then that would truly be a great debate…. unless I’m missing your point.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 21, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
We are talking about a decision at the time, without knowledge of what future seasons hold
Suppose there is a new expansion franchise. On draft day, they get the option to draft a 23-year-old sure-fire hall-of-famer named Calbert Peehole, or be guaranteed a WS ring that season.
Calbert could lead you to multiple titles, or he could never get that monkey off his back. Which do you take? I take the player.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
you go for the World series
You have to trust that your system will give you other great players. If it doesn’t than the one great player doesn’t do you any good anyway.
But are all those other players going to suck
the very next year? If you’ve got a 23 year old sure fire HOF’er, he should be giving you real wins within the next year or two.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
who knows
What if the cardinals made a play and traded Rasmus for CC last year? Moved Motte for Fuentes and then made a run at the WS?
Would it be worth it if we won?
Would we still have Wallace in Memphis if we traded Rasmus?
Too many what if’s. WS victories are rare. I say go for them when you can. Because you don’t know when your next chance is.
HOF players don't grow on trees, either
I would almost certainly rather have a career worth of Albert than 1 WS ring.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
For some reason
I feel like I have both of those :)
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Put another way...
How much love did the Marlins’ 1997 WS title garner them from the city of Miami? Would the city embrace them more if they hadn’t expunged all the players in the fire sale?
That's the counterpoint...
and probably one of very few examples of where it would better serve a franchise to have the player(s) instead of the WS title. Although who knows if any of those ’97 Marlins make it into the HOF.
Sheffield
will get in I think, unless the steroid allegations keep him out.
Probably nobody else though.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
If their only title was in 1909
It still would be more recent than the Cubs’ last title
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If the point of my existance
was to take a trip to Disney at that moment, then yes.
Shut up, Fritz™.
Are you dieing the next day?
The point of baseball franchises isn’t to win the World Series AT THAT MOMENT. It is to win as much as possible.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
a fiery death in Florence SC.
Seize the day. Then dry hump it.
Shut up, Fritz™.
by Alxfritz on Aug 21, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"People of the world, I have something to say...
It’s better to burn out than to fade away!"
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
you could also die or the couple could implode
and those options would net you nothing
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Or the stock options could soar
and be worth $10m…its a trade off. All about the discount rate you attach to the value of wins in the future.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Analogy doesn't hold
Because if you sell your stocks, you can guarantee you’ll go to Disney World. If you sell the farm, you could still get knocked out in the playoffs. I guess your car could break down on the way to Disney World.
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright
then replace Disney with ‘buying your dream home’. It could burn down and you would get insurance that would be enough to rebuild it.
But if you held onto that stock, you could buy 4 houses…or it could go in the Enron toilet.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Is your goal to go to Disney? Or to make money?
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
To make money to go to Disney
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
And to stay at the animal kingdom hotel?!?
I love giraffes.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Blizzard Beach, bitches!
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Is your goal to win the World Series 1 year
or to put your organization in the best possible situation to win as many WS as possible?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
It's kinda like
giving away free outs to guarantee yourself a small-ball run, rather than letting your hitters hit. Nobody really does that anymore, least of all in this organization.
…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Isn't that the rub?
The decision to trade some prospects for a veteran could put the organization in the best possible situation to win as many WS as possible (which could be one).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
This is kinda like the bird in the hand vs. two in the bush dilemma
Although you don’t have a WS in hand, trading to enhance an already good team in the short run certainly increases your chances for that one WS. Whereas on the other hand, you could stand pat and accumulate talent to try and win multiple WS.
I guess I’d have to say that, given the uncertainty with projecting years into the future, if I had a chance to win one WS, I’m trading what I can trade to bolster an already good team. I mean, with the unpredictability of injuries, flame-outs of prospects, etc., its tough to project 3-4 years out how good your team will be. Like Joe Morgan says, “there are no great teams anymore.” (kidding).
So if I were in a position to step up and make a serious run one year, I do it. Then in the mean time, I keep drafting wisely and accumulating talent so that the next time I have a really good team, I have the flexibility to bolster another good team. Before you know it, you have accumulated multiple WS rings — you just didn’t do back to back or three years in a row.
by Ray Lankford on Aug 21, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That's really not a great analogy
I would put it this way:
Suppose you heard Disney had a 95% chance of closing by next June. You want to take your 6 and 7 year old kids, but you don’t have the money right now unless you sell your blue chip stocks.
So the choice would be selling your blue chip stocks now and get to Disney, or keep your blue chip stocks and take the 5% chance that Disney doesn’t close so you can take them later.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
For me, yes.
It’s all about winning. Flags do fly forever. An honestly, you don’t win without having a handful of above average to great players. You might miss that one but got away but you’ll enjoy the ones that stayed and hoisted* the trophy.
*cue Chris Duncan photo
Agreed
Although in hindsight I find myself wistful every time Dan Haren takes the mound. Still, the 2006 WS win is so sweet. Still.
Caveat: not saying Haren’s a future HOFer.
apparently he pitches for the Diamond backs
and has had a great year so far…It’s odd that no one has ever mentioned him before…
In the Southwest Territories?
They play base-ball there?
by olddomination on Aug 21, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
But that was the thinking Jocketty had in 2005
Chris Carpenter was injured during the playoffs in 2004 and Walt didn’t want to get caught without another ‘ace’ pitcher at the front of the rotation in the playoffs.
So he traded Haren for Mulder and we ALMOST won the WS again without our team of coming-of-age talent and salty vets. It didn’t work and we were left with the mess of a rotation from 2006 until today.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
If Mulder had worked out
and we had won in 05 would your tune be different? That is the entire question.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
If Mulder was still healthy?
It would have been a loss of a deal but a good deal still.
But do you think the Red Sox would rather have Mike Gonzalez and Freddy Sanchez or Jeff Suppan if they had that deal to do over again?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
A thousand times Beckett
I don’t think any fan in Boston would have undone that trade after 2004.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Since the trade
WAR:
Beckett = 18.4
Hanley = 24.3
And it is only going to get worse.
The only saving grace is they got Mike Lowell and his 12.7 WAR. Unfortunately, they gave up Annibal Sanchez who is still only 25.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
But who cares?
Boston already won the World Series. No one’s running a baseball franchise to maximize WAR over X number of years.
So, after the fact, the choice is (1) make the trade which results in a World Series victory (2) don’t make the trade, keep the prospect who turns out to be the best player in the deal, and perhaps win a world series or perhaps not.
Seems like you’d take deal 2 – that’s fine, but it doesn’t make any sense to me.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You wouldn't take the player that increases your amount of wins?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
We're both looking at the trade in hindsight, right?
The question is whether today one would undo the Hanley-Beckett trade knowing how it all turned out.
I’m saying I would not, because Boston ended up winning the World Series.
The fact that Hanley has been worth increasingly more WAR since the trade doesn’t change my assessment.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
bean town would not have won in 07 if they didn't have beckett
i wouldn’t undo that trade either
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
A world series might add another $20 to $50M in revenue
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
especially to that bandwagon magnet of a team
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 21, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I understand that
I guess I would have taken Hanley over Beckett.
The Red Sox went right back to the ALCS the very next year (2008) and Hanley was the more valuable player of the two.
The year they won the WS Hanley was less than a win less valuable than Beckett.
I believe that in 2008 they would have had a better chance of winning the WS with Hanley instead of Beckett. In 2007, it was a toss up.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
that is not even taking account in differences of pay
If they had Hanley they could of just signed another pitcher.
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
just looked
Beckett would of ended up being a free agent in 2007 if he didn’t resign with the Red Sox
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Not only that
but they are as old as shit now. Martinez is 30, Youk is 30, Varitek is 37, Lowell is 35, Nick Green is 30, Jason Bay is 30, JD Drew and Big Papi are 33.
They got young pitching but their position players are ancient.
They could also have back that $36 M they spent on Julio Lugo from 2007 until 2011 and put it towards another SP.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
he's another guy i thought was older too
like 35ish. he doesn’t look that young to me. Papi really doesn’t look young anymore either.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
We'll just have to disagree about Boston's chances in 2007
I don’t think they win the Series without Beckett (20 wins, almost 200 SOs, 4-0 in that postseason, etc.) and Lowell (career year and WS MVP).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
but they could of just signed him as a free agent at that time
If they didn’t trade for him. So they could of had Beckett AND Hanley
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
people are beginning to add to many variables to a hypo...
Who knows what else would have happened had the trade not occurred? Beckett could have been traded somewhere else, the hypothetical pitcher Boston could have signed could have been injured, draft positions change, etc. Once you start evaluating how replacement players played (like Lugo) it really starts breaking down because it’s a just a cherry-picking exercise.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is why you have to break it down to the data that you know.
Hanley is cheaper and better than Beckett. They did not win the WS the year Beckett joined their team.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
the actual players don't really matter..
it’s a philosophical question. Beckett and Hanley are just players in this game.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Beckett is a really, really good pitcher
…And he was also a big part of that 2007 WS title. However, Ramirez is and will continue to be a great hitter, and his bat plays just about anywhere on the field if his defense at SS becomes unacceptable. I’d rather have HanRam.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 21, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Haren outpitched Mulder that exact same season
So in theory they didn’t have to trade Mulder. They had his production on the team already.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 21, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny how that's become Haren for Mulder
wasn’t it Daric Barton for Mulder at the time?
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
If they could have persuaded Oakland to take another young pitcher off ours hands instead of what's-his-face
It probably wouldn’t be too bad.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I think that is partly because _________ has been so good
and partly because they both played the same position.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
You're welcome
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The Florida Marlins are the counterpoint
to the logic. With 2 WS titles flying “forever” in south Florida – would they be better off if they had kept Alou, Sheffield, Renteria, Kevin Brown, etc? Even if it meant no WS? Would it have been better for the franchise?
No, because no one would give a shit about the Marlins if they'd lost...
I could name players of that caliber on the Houston Astros today….Tejada, Pudge (as of a few days ago), Berkman, Oswalt….and no one gives a shit.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
But Florida fans
don’t give a shit anyway so they’re a terrible team to use as a “counterpoint”. They’ve never been able to draw down there unless they’re winning the World Series.
Now, do the Marlins have a chance in hell of winning in 2003 if they don’t have a fire sale? No, they don’t. Half the guys on their team ended up getting traded to net them the players that they then won the title in 2003 with.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Do you the Cubs would trade Ryne Sandberg for a World Series Title?
I say yes. If you win the World Series almost anything is justified.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
True, and at the same time
Cubs fans would push their mother in front of a bus on Addison and Clark if it even meant a pennant. Or a 6 pack of free Old Style.
Exactly
You cannot reason it out by saying, “by keeping potential HOF player A and sacrificing a chance to win the WS this year, we will likely win more than one WS down the road.”
by olddomination on Aug 21, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, this is prob too hypothetical
but I just like challenging trueisms. In the end a WS win is just too sweet in this case. But at the same time if you’ve let a great player get away, that’s just gotta suck.
But a great player does not ensure
Multiple titles, much less one, down the road
by olddomination on Aug 21, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you think the Red Sox would have traded Youk + Papelbon in 2003
for a World Series title?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
In 2003 yes they would.
Think the Cubs would not give up Williams, Sandberg or Banks for a title they haven’t touched for over 100 years?…….. well…. Banks would be a tough one…… but maybe they would.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 21, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Then they would have been worse off
for doing it. Because within 1 year, they won a WS and 3 years later they were able to win again using those players.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
But..... in 2003, they wouldn't know that.
It’s a great debate. I see your point….. but players are players, HOF or not…… WS victories are forever.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 21, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
The point isn't to not win WS
but whether or not winning 1 makes up for giving up the chance to win 2.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
but you are arguing the wrong point
They DID trade away a potential HOFer in Hanely Ramierez at a chance for a WS
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
True.
But they also traded for a guy who had HOF potential.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
one of the issues is...
There really isn’t a wrong answer here. But are favorable outcomes.
Without knowing who would replace Youkilis + Papelbon you can’t really know that the RedSox wouldn’t have won the WS later anyway.
Right
but trading Youk and Papelbot for a 31+ year old veteran pitcher is the kind of deal that screams of ‘win now’. If they had traded those two for Bartolo Colon, they might have won the WS in 2003 but they’d be left holding their dicks for the next few years looking at that flag flying forever.
It is a delicate balance.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a much easier way to frame this question...
Would you rather be the A’s (or Twins) or the Marlins in this decade? The marlins have only made the playoffs once and won the world series, but both the A’s and the Twins have been competitive through most of the decade but have nothing to show for it.
Disclaimer: I am not saying the Marlins won their WS by selling the farm.
Here's a question
Let’s say it is the 2000 season and the Cards could be a lock for the WS title if they traded a certain minor league guy from the Dominican for hell, Randy Johnson. You don’t have to worry about saying " yeah, cuz we will win in 2006" because that doesn’t happen without this minor league stud.
Do you make that trade if it guarantees you the 2000 World Championship?
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I make the trade and don't think twice
said Dominican player was a 13th round draft choice. You said nothing about him being a sure fire HOF player in there, you just referenced who he was. Would I regret it later? I’d regret trading him to a fucking team in the NL probably, but I’d always have the nice WS flag to look at….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I would have made the trade too
but I would be filled with regret, and yes, I totally brain-farted on the sure fire HOF part.
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
It's a very interesting question
The Cardinals have 10 World Series titles, and have played in 17 World Series. We also have 25 HOF players who have played for the Cardinals, 13 of whom played more innings for the BOB than for any other team. If you count Pujols, who’s probably assuredly in, that’s 26 and 14. That’s quite a disparity in HOF players vs. titles won, so the titles are more rare, as are the world series appearances, and we’ve won the second most titles in MLB history.
I think that it totally depends on who you root for. If you’re the Yankees, you’re probably not in favor of getting rid of your best player because you expect to win the World Series every other year. Then again, who needs prospects when you can just buy whatever team you want to put on the field?
If you’re a Cubs fan (or a Red Sox fan prior to 2004), then you would probably trade away a sure fire HOF player just for one World Series title, because one is all you really care about. I think most Cubs fans would kidnap a HOF player and then give him away for nothing just to have a title (I’m actually surprised this hasn’t happened yet, lol).
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Hm
Yesterday’s post about Smoltz, unless someone has made a comment there in the last half a minute, has exactly 777 comments. So, leave that thread alone, don’t walk under any ladders, stay away from black cats, and for GOB’s sake don’t break any mirrors while admiring your bitchin’ mustachioed face.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Is that dude wearing a black belt?
Is there a blackbelt for Pokemon?
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
so yes
He thinks it is a black belt in Pokemon
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Sweater makes his butt look smaller.
Or at least that’s what Homer Simpson said.
"I throw him four wide ones then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on Musial
That lineup was originally the top 5
but he ate the two Asians closest to him.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Ash has really let himself go
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
You know how they say that
owners and their pet Snorlax start to look alike over time. . .
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Wobbuffet!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
The two little Asinas are the Champions...
that thing in the black shirt is the Monster they used to win.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
it's amazing what you can fit into a Pokéball
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Interesting; I didn't know Rush Limbaugh did Pokemon.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Old white men are always picking on minorities to get ahead
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
wow
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Big Six
Pujols is a typical Hog Wild runner and the Coachers should dart the third baseline to tackle him onto the bag.
I’m going to really like this book.
Shut up, Fritz™.
nicely done!
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 1:26 PM EDT reply actions
Ring Lardner
should have a conversation with Christy in the next installment, about how this team’s the best there’s ever been, and they play with the same grit as the Red Legs of (18)76.
If they keep separate scorecards of the games, however…that could be a problem…
"Fortune favors the bold!" - Virgil
by player2bnamedl8r on Aug 21, 2009 1:31 PM EDT reply actions
Usain Bolt money quote:
I am on my way to being a legend. If Queen Elizabeth knighthooded (sic) me, and I would be Sir Usain Bolt, that would be very nice.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
He doesn't have much of an ego problem, does he?
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I think i would have a problem keeping my ego in check
if i was the fastest man alive!
He seems like a really nice guy
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
its hard to take it all in
when you are going by everything that fast…
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
I'm sure he is a nice guy,
aren’t all Jamacans inherently nice? or is that profiling?
It’s just when you make a statement like that, it can come off the wrong way.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure that if you said that on TV, somebody would get offended
That doesn’t mean it’d be just.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
They are not-
ask the British.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
You obviously don't know many Jamaicans.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I was referring to the general "Come to Jamaica Mon"veiw.
Never met a one.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, Okay.
People are always nicer in the abstract.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 21, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
its right above the pic of him in this thread
at least one of them.
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
I am hurt by your implication
That I would share any of my porn with VEB.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Just wait until you decide to share a great link with VEB
But forget to copy the actual link. The last thing you actually copied was midgetamputees.com . Then you’ll REALLY be embarrassed.
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
personal experience?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Yes
Thank god for the Preview button
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This from the individual who started
the ASCII rally genitalia.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
in fairness, it is impossible to count up to zero.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
let's ask Adam Dunn
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
lies
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
dear pads - you got boog-slammed!
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
but 6ly
if Boog can start hitting in clutch situations, he would be so much more valuable offensively. I hope it’s the beginning of a beautiful trend!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I'll bet 100 Internet
dollars Boog doesn’t even start tonight’s game.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 21, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Can I get in for 10 internet dollars and say he starts? Rasmus will sit, mark it down.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 21, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Rasmus needs to sit
He’s wasting away.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
BOOG!
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I miss one game to go out to the bar on a Thursday night
And I miss a Boog GS. Why did he have to do it that night?!
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
because you were at a bar....
which reminds me. You’re going out to a bar next Thursday night right?
Hmmm
Not sure. What are you getting at?
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
This is an idea I can get behind
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Evilfrog can pay for your drinks!
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Anyone watching the Ripken LL Baseball tournament on MLB Network right now?
I’m pretty sure this kid on the mound for Mexico could shut down the Cardinals for about 5 innings.
I'm watching something on ESPN
and one of the kids said Jason Marquis was his favorite player.
That’d be like me when I was a kid saying Mike Morgan was my favorite player.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
word.
he also sucked for his below avg defense and complete lack of power. Still – the younger version of me thought he was great. Actually, so did the fans, media and sportswriters since he was a 2 time All Star and finished in the top 12 of the MVP twice. Also won RoY. Weird in retrospect. Guess he was wildly overrated.
Damn Stats Guys!!!!
You’re ruining the fond memories of youth!!!!!
GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude was faster than greased lightning.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Better yet was him and Willie doin double steals
and watch in the catcher stand there with the ball in his hand and jock around his ankles while crapping himself.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Vince Coleman is amazing in RBI baseball
If he gets on base you can get at least to second base every single time. I don’t think it is possible to catch him stealing in that game.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
gotta try that
But in a true reality, if he had learned to work a walk better, he coulda stolen a lot more.
Damn I hated admitting that.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 21, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
They don't put OBP
up on the scoreboard.
But they do have those neon Redbirds flying back and forth on the hitters eye when you steal a base!
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
LT in Tecmo Bowl...
he was unstoppable. Like Jeremy Roenick in the original NHL hockey on Sega.
by southsidepat on Aug 21, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
He was the best at what he did
Jason Marquis is not.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
unless the category is
pitchers-who-remain-cocky-and-outspoken-even-after-repeatedly-shelled-and-then-arguing-with-their-HOF-pitching-coach-when-given-suggestions (and occasionally are used to pinch-hit or pinch-run).
After the kid gives up 7 runs and gets knocked out of the game, is he gonna tell the interviewer, “Yeah, I thought I pitched really well out there. I let a few get away from me but I thought mostly I was pretty outstanding”.
by Merry CRasmus on Aug 21, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ronnie Wellemeyer really didn't have a good game, truthfully.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
'Hi, my name is Jimmy Dogsmacker
and my favorite player is Brad Thompson’
Sponsored by Slick-Rick 'Stache Cream
Staten Island.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Since we owe the Red Sox a PTBNL for Julio Lugo
can we resign Chris Duncan and then send him back to Boston?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
That will make the world blow up
Literally. Explode.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 21, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Or cash, right?
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
There was once a guy who was traded for himself...
…forget who it was. Anybody?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
woops....it was the guy who got traded for ten maple bats
I dabbled in pacifism once....not in 'Nam of course
LukeMP-
Did you see the FanGraphs article on Borbon?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
That's good stuff...
He is unbelievably talented and was a ton of fun to watch, as were a number of guys that played with him here. Yet these were teams that struggled to even make the SEC tournament, and that’s why Rod Delmonico got fired. The new guy is even worse, and the program is kind of in shambles. But they’re renovating the stadium!
V, b.
Auburn University = nicest baseball facilities in the SEC
Auburn University = the only SEC team not to make an SEC tournament in the past 6 (or so) years.
Great facilities doesn’t always mean success.
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Should have told that to the Pirates and Natinals
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Heh
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
the thread photo makes me wish for a seriously retro uniform night at the ballpark.
you’d have to do it in april or september so as not to kill the players in those suitcoats.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
OT: Spiezio Update
I didn’t see this posted anywhere else, but the LA Times has an update about Soul Patch.
Interesting read, and always nice to get an update.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
Al and Jim Edmonds went to see him on the first day of the L.A. series
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2009/8/13/987830/scott-speizio-starting-over
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
His wife riding the bus with the team
is the best thing that has happened to the team.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Bully post!
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 21, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions
Interseting question
Would you rather pay Albert Pujols $25 M for 10 years in 2011 at age 31 or would you rather pay Hanley Ramirez $25 M for 10 years in 2014 at age 30.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 4:41 PM EDT reply actions
Pujols
I don’t see a lot of good 40 year old shortstops around.
He can
But that affects his value negatively, obviously. Hanley has a Pujolsian-level WAR only because he plays shortstop.
He's 4th in baseball in batting value
Oddly enough, fielding wise Pujols is -0.6 and Hanley is +0.6
The question is, who will age more gracefully.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Ramirez.
3 years of inflation after what this country has just went through will make Hanley’s contract much cheaper. At the same time, I would take Pujols at 5 mil/year more. Hanley’s range is already losing steam and he will be a 3rd basemen halfway through that contract.
Has anyone seen Brett Wallace's line this last week?
.419/.486/.935 (13-for-31), 5 HR, 1 2B, 9 RBIs, 9 R, 2 BB, 4 SO, 1-for-2 SB
well if it makes you feel any better
Here is Chris Perez’s line from recently
13.1 IP, 3 H, 4 BB, 15 K, 0.00 ERA, .234 OPS against, .534 WHIP
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Who is this "Brett Wallace" person
Never heard of him…
I still like Matt Holliday.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
he is the Walrus.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
not surprised
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
You know
That’s about what Matt Holliday is hitting playing LF in the major leagues in a pennant race.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
thank goodness some of these kids have Albert as their favorite player
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
lots of A-Rods
I didn’t hear a single Jeter or Tex.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Strange.
I would have thought A-Rod’s popularity would take a hit.
by olddomination on Aug 21, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
hey there's a Tex just now
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Going to work this morning
I must have seen 15-20 Tex jerseys
by olddomination on Aug 21, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If Flags Fly Forever
didn’t have perfect alliteration, would people keeping throwing that meme out there?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 5:20 PM EDT reply actions
Banners Wave in Perpetuity!!!!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is why i hate celebratory franklins
it’s almost 5:30pm & holy crap, i still feel like ass
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
gotta take a day off every once in a while
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
i think this is only the second time this year i've had a hangover
i really don’t drink that much. i really overdid it last night/this morning
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
that's good!
I only get hangovers when I drink without eating much
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
i think that's what did me in
i had very little to eat yesterday, and i haven’t had anything today.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
i rarely get hangovers
I mostly stick to Bourbon and water so that might have something to do with it. I just take longer to get up to speed in the morning or I wake up super early
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 21, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
the demon rum & vanilla coke has kicked me in the family jewels hard today
serves me right for trying to forget yesterday was someone’s bday & enjoying the Cards being 7up
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
yum, 7 & 7
Seagram’s & 7 UP
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
Yadi's been high-fiving like that for most of the season
From the All-Star break at the latest.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Just for kicks
I looked up the RAR for DeRosa versus Todd and Perez. Combined, Todd and Perez have been worth 3.5 RAR in Cleveland and DeRosa has been worth 2.7 here in STL. I found it interesting. I still think its too bad Todd had to be the PTBNL.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
So, my friend was telling me today about that KGB service
and how you can become an ‘agent’ if you promise to work 6 hours a week. You make $.10 a question you answer for people and you get paid at the end of the month.
I almost signed up for it but couldn’t bring myself to give them my social and my bank routing #.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 6:33 PM EDT reply actions
I about signed up for that too
But .10 a question means you have 1,000 questions to make a 100 dollars.
Although if you worked there for awhile, I imagine that Jeopardy might be a good show to try to get on.
Sponsored by Slick-Rick 'Stache Cream
Yeah
but if you think about it, if you work 27 hours a month, to make $100 you would have to answer 37 questions an hour. I just don’t see how that would be possible.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Its not exactly worth the time
Unless you like random ass questions.
Sponsored by Slick-Rick 'Stache Cream
Yeah
That sounds terrible, even if the benifits r great and I doubt they r
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 21, 2009 7:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How is that not a scam?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
cha cha has done the same thing for a while
i have an ex-gf that used to do it. Their compensation rates have steadily gone down over time, its like 5 or 6 cents a question now. There are a decent amount of terms to keep your response rate relatively low, like having to source stuff and interface issues and what not.
I’d check out cha cha if you’re interested they’re definitely legit.
I used to work for cha cha
when it first started — a guy I went to college with was a halo investor of theirs. They used to pay an hourly rate (something like minimum wage I think) and then $0.50 cents a question. You could make a shitload of money working for just 15 hours a week or so.
My areas of expertise? Sports and politics. Guess which ones I got more questions on?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Shut up, Fritz
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Ok so I missed the debate On Ws or HOFer
And I know people won’t go back and read a reply but there was a huge hole in that debate. So, my obnoxiously retroactive comment is, if you really think the HOFer is better than the WS you should be cheering for Ernie Banks, and therefor, well, you know . . .
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 21, 2009 6:59 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
But the arguement isn't
1 WS + 0 HOF
vs
0 WS + HOF
It is whether you would trade a HOF potential player for a guaranteed WS the first year of the deal.
I wouldn’t. Walt Jocketty almost traded Albert Pujols in 2000 as the PTBNL trying to go ‘ALL IN’ for McGwire’s final years with a team of JD Drew, Edgar Renteria, Vina and Jim Edmonds. If you were guaranteed the WS in 2000, would you trade Albert Pujols?
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Did he really?
What trade?
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i think HL's talking about the trade with the father's
i know kevin towers did everything he could to get albert, but someone in the Cards FO put their foot down
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
But what was the trade?
Which players were involved? I don’t remember making a trade with Whale’s Vagina in 2000.
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Motherfuckin'
PHEW
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Aug 21, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Heathcliff Sloccumb
for Albert Pujols…that sounds pretty even for both teams…
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
That has the words
Thank god plastered all over it’s retrospective value
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 21, 2009 8:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And that was when Albert
Was suppossed to flame out like ben grieve because he “couldn’t pull the ball”
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 21, 2009 8:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sounds about right.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Vague recollection of Heathcliff
No idea who Ben Johnson is
"You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Aug 21, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I reme looked like this
http://www.rapidfind.org/upload/showthread.php?t=215532
only black
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 21, 2009 8:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The header was supposed to say
I remember heathcliff looked like this
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 21, 2009 8:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Heathcliff, Heathcliff, no-one should
terrorize the neightborhood
But Heathcliff’s always having fun
playing pranks on everyone
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
In that case typically not
But top prospects can be a little bit of a crapshoot(see: Reyes, Anthony) and even on the successful side you can have a short lived superstar, a long term superstar, a HOFer that doesn’t stick around b/c of money or a HOFer that does
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 21, 2009 7:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
damn me for not reading all the way down first
damn you people for bringing this post back up all the way down the thread!
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Well OK
I could ask you if you would have traded 1992 Brien Taylor for a 1992 WS Title and you’d do it. I could also ask you if you would trade 1998 J.D. Drew for a 1998 WS Title.
Prospects are a CRAPSHOOT.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
A question about fielding metrics and such
I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to fielding/defensive statistics, but is there anything that takes into account pre-pitch alignment? Was he playing up to the grass, was he shading second base, was he playing deep in the hole, was one of those weird 3-6 shifts on that Joe Maddon uses 4-5 times a game? Or holding a runner on base, or breaking to the bag before the swing.
Just curious! Thanks for the help!
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
I don't think there is, but there should be
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, guys
That was what I was under the impression of.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Aug 21, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I've asked this before
and I think I was told “yes”, it does account.
Because I used to question Chris Duncan’s value defensively because he would always be rated highly because of his Out Of Zone plays of which I often remarked he was always lined up ‘out of zone’ for a standarded LF and that boosted his numbers.
by Hardcore Legend on Aug 21, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah i think its oversold
i mean if you can’t use it to spot trends and progression whats it really good for?
Cubs deal finalized in next 4 months
Tribune will only own 5% of the Cubs. also, they are getting sued because some old garage on the property collapsed while someone was taking shelter from the rain (21 year old dude) back in ’07
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 21, 2009 7:12 PM EDT reply actions
I just imagine a retail scene
“how much for the century of failure surrounded by hipsters and frat boys?”
“$xx billion”
“I’ll take it!”
“but you have to leave us 5%”
“fine, but only out of the hipsters section, frat boys blow more money”
“sold!”
The bible declares an eye for an eye, so, let us now take our vengeance on this murderous ocean. . . You won't be hurting anyone anymore
by Buddhasillegitimatechild38 on Aug 21, 2009 8:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
one of the LLs said Christy is their favorite player
no joke
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
You know this is totally off subject
But looking at Alberts numbers… Man the guy is down to a 318 batting average. It is starting to scare me cus I think maybe it will be around 300 by the end of the year if not below
The Redbirds are of the highest priority to me... As it should be
blasphemy!
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 22, 2009 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I was just perusing MLBTR,
and I happened to come across a failure of the Mets to sign a player named Damien Magnifico. How can you not sign MAGNIFICO?
You may run like Hayes, but you hit like shit.
Lineup:
Lugo 2B
Ryan SS
Mang 1B
Indy LF
Ludwick RF
DeRo 3B
expletive deleted
Lohse SP
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Clayton B. Richard again.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
let's hope he averages 25 pitches and 2 walks an innings again.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
The B stands for BB
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Lineup fail
7 Yadi C
8 Ank for some fucking reason CF
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Colby error last night
and LHP going tonight
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
wasting. away.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Except Ank is worse at defense and also bad against LH.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Reid Gorecki gets his ticket punched...
never thought I’d see that.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
Another random ex-prospect factoid...
John Gall now has over 3000 plate appearances at the Triple A level. That’ s a lot of waiting by the phone.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
wainwright looks like he had a late, late night.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
"potentially a deadly 1-3 punch there"
lol Adam.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
delving into Brendan Ryan
“he’s gotten a lot more baseball-smart”
keeps the clubhouse light … “complete goofball”
“He’s got the potential to win a lot of Gold Gloves.”
Adam gets all twisted up on the appalling idea of changing Boog.
They want him. They really want him.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
The Cat almost got luggaged on air
I missed most of it, damn.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Great Job DanUp
this place always has room for another awesome Matty!
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
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