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Albert Pujols: Anatomy of the Swing

As you may know, one of my pet peeves is how little the commentators on TV and the radio, at both the local and national levels, seem to know about what a good baseball swing looks like. They spend most to all of their time talking about false notions and outright myths, like extension at the point of contact, that seem important but are actually the effect of a good swing rather than the cause of a good swing.[1] As a result, they leave kids and their parents with a false sense of what the best hitters actually do when they swing the bat. That ends up hurting, rather than improving, kids' swings...

PLEASE NOTE: A large number of people have found this post to be valuable. As a result, and in order to make this post easier to maintain over time and in just one place, I have moved it to my web site...

- Albert Pujols Swing Analysis

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love the frame showing the load on the bat

nice curve there, similar to what you see in an elite golfer’s swing (Frame 30)

There’s a LOT of force happening to cause that bow.

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by gocards62 on Aug 19, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Some of this is real but some of it is an artifact

The bat does accelerate and decelerate at different times, and flex as a result, but because of the way the camera’s shutter works it is accentuated.

It is interesting to see the bat curl forward due to the whip effect.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was wondering if that was partially a camera thing.

This is a neat post.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Aug 19, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is due to something called the rolling shutter

It’s due to the camera’s having a CMOS shutter, which does a vertical scan of the image rather than a sequence of whole-sensor snapshots.

I’m trying to figure out what the degree of distortion is.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

“This is a neat post.”

Thanks.

Let’s hope that’s read by Al, John Rooney, Ricky Horten, Joe Morgan, and the other proponents of extension at the POC.

Their understanding this really would help out a lot of kids.

My swing was absolutely ruined by my dad teaching me to make the Power V at the POC (I assume due to reading Charley Lau’s book). I can remember standing in the right cage at Tower Tee, trying to do it, and figuring I just wasn’t meant to be a hitter.

A few years later I tried to play D3 baseball in college and found out that I could hit pretty well, largely because I had forgotten everything my dad taught me.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let’s get the real story about your playing “career”, Chris. If you can even call it that.

by Not Impressed on Sep 10, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i never made it past little league short season baseball

so i know zilch about hitting and pitching mechanics…but i really enjoy your blog and have enjoyed this post

Quick Question: When Albert says that its his quick hands that cause him to be such a good hitter, is that from his rotational force he gets with his weight shift? I have always thought that his power came from his weight shift, so when he says its because of his quick hands, I get confused. And does quick wrists and quick hands pean the same thing?

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Aug 19, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Quick Hands

Quick hands mostly means that your swing is short and not arm-y.

That means that your hands travel in the shortest path to the target, which paradoxically is a curved path rather than a straight line. Basically, your hands stay connected to and rotate with your back shoulder. They do get pulled out into extension, but after the POC.

The problem that many people have is called casting, which means that their hands get away from their back shoulder and take a longer, loopier path to the ball. To use a track analogy, you want your hands to follow a path that corresponds to the inside lane and not one of the outside lanes.

The weight shift is more about generating power. You could have a great weight shift but lose all of the power benefits with a long, loopy hand path.

In a good swing, what the wrists do is mostly the effect of the swing, not the cause. The momentum transfer causes them to un-hinge at the right time. By trying to improve this by popping your wrists, you are more likely to screw things up (due to creating tension in the wrists) than you are to make them better.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Teaching quick hands...

This is eaasier to show than explain, but what I use to teach quick hands to little leaguers is a little sword fighting. I have them sword fight with bats (preferably whiffle ball bats) to demonstrate how to gaurd themselves. In sword fighting most fighters keep their hands close to them body to defend because the hands travel a shorter distance the closer they are to the body. So the drill goes something like this:

I stand in front of a kid with a bat and have him hold the bat straight up in front of his face with his hands as close to his chest as possible. Then I take a swing at his right shoulder and make him defend it; then to the left side and make him defend it; and repeat getting faster and faster. What happens is that kids learn to rotate their body back and forth to block and really their hands are only moving a few inches. It doesn’t develop hand speed per se, but more of a total body quickness.

by BigJawnMize on Aug 20, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting idea

I’ll try it out with my kids.

Thanks.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 20, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chris Duncan would be the prototype of the Type I hitter, right?

nice article PG. This is what the Intertubes are for….

by nota bene on Aug 19, 2009 3:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Kinda Sorta

Your prototypical Type I guy is going to have lots of HRs and a high SLG but a BA more in the .280 range.

Duncan’s not as smart of a hitter as some of the more prominent Type I’s. He was also more Type I in 2006 and 2007.

Lately he’s just been a hitter with a crappy eye and approach but good power if the pitcher makes a mistake.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he has that long swing though

maybe “prototype” was the wrong word….I guess Adam Dunn may be your more typical Type I guy that’s actually good.

by nota bene on Aug 19, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except

Dunn’s never hit .280 until this season.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Aug 19, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

.280 is a SWAG

Guys like Dunn definitely fit the profile.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure that Duncan's problem is a long swing

…as much as it is a crappy eye and/or lack of discipline (or understanding of what pitches he can hit well). He just loves to try to pull that pitch low and away, which is a very low probability strategy.

I don’t know this is due to an excess of ego or a deficit of some other thing.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think some of it is bad habits

When he first came up and his body worked well, he was phenomenally strong. He was able to muscle some of those away pitches out of the park to right out of pure strength. It’s a bad habit to get into, obviously, b/c outside pitches shouldn’t be pulled. That’s my feeling anyway…wild ass speculation.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 19, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably true to a degree

He also probably moved better pre-surgery. Now he’s bound to be stiffer and less able to tilt and adjust to the pitch. Now he has to extend his arms, which is going to kill his batspeed.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Funny when YOU, Chris are talking about others having “excess of ego”. Pot, say hello to that kettle over there in the corner before you head out for the night.

by Not Impressed on Sep 10, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Type I hitter = 3 true outcomes hitter

If that hitter has patience — if not, they’re Rob Deer.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 20, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is my favorite fanpost on VEB so far

I have such a bad eye for everything that happens around home plate, yet I’m fascinated by Albert’s swing. Very cool. I’ll have to bookmark this.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 19, 2009 3:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I liked it so much I rec'd the glossary off the front page

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 19, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I’m glad people find it to be valuable.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if you have more to share

do more of these! I’m sure everybody will eat it up.

by nota bene on Aug 19, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Checked out your website. Good stuff. I may have to get a couple of those dvd’s for nephews.

Do you know of any good softball pitching dvd’s, I have a neice that shows some serious potential.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 19, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm new to the fastpitch world, so I don't know

The swing is the same, but I’m still trying to understand how they pitch.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can find some really good ones online

look for anything by Michelle Smith. She’s a good instructor, as a former Olympian. (That’s not why she’s a good instructor, but gives her “cred.”)

by stlfan on Aug 19, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you very much.

Looks like that might be what I want. She’s pitching against girls 2-4 yrs older just for competion. She’s 12 and putting her against other 12 yr olds is like sending Carp against the AA Springfield team.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 19, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll do more as they strike me

Right now this one grew out of my frustration with people’s harping on extension.

Of course if I listen to Joe Morgan for 5 minutes, I’ll come up with tons of material.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

FJM~!

great great post.

by kindred on Aug 20, 2009 6:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What’s frustrating is how you spend 90% of your life doing nothing but ruining certain guys. Rarely do you offer good content, just slamming a select few.

Obsess much, Chris?

by Not Impressed on Sep 10, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's so good...

you should call it “Anatomy of a Schwing”. Thanks, Wayne Cambell.

"Our role guys have become our feature players."
Tony La Russa, 2006

by Mr. Wilson on Aug 19, 2009 6:56 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

although...

wasnt there an article a year back or so that said albert had an extremely fast swing…they clocked it…and that in many ways he measures up to Babe Ruth?

I just remember the article put many elements of Albert’s swing to quantifiable testing.

by Big Rev on Aug 19, 2009 7:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If I remember correctly, they were timing Albert's swing, from start to finish, rather than measuring batspeed.

Which is something Chris mentioned above. Albert has a swing that takes place in an extremely short period of time, even though the bat itself isn’t moving at as fast a pace as some others, because there’s so little wasted motion.

For a good example of the difference between batspeed and a ‘fast’ swing, go look at some video of the Cardinals’ fourth round draft pick from ‘07, Kyle Russell. Russell is capable of hitting the ball an absolute mile, and I’m sure generating tons of batspeed, but watch how long his actual swing is. I was disappointed the Cardinals didn’t sign him at the time, because I thought with proper coaching, that swing could be improved and his aggressive nature in swinging could be retained, but judging by his minor league numbers, that hasn’t happened.

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 19, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing about a long swing...

…is that while it can generate LOTS of batspeed, you have to start it sooner. That means that you have less time to read the pitch. That makes you vulnerable to late-breaking pitches and change-ups, and implies that your BA is going to drop the higher you go in baseball and the pitching gets better.

Long swings work very well in slow pitch because you don’t have to worry about the change-up, so you can just time everything out.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here a link to the article

I linked to the article above, but it was kind of subtle…

- Article about article about Albert’s swing

Babe Ruth actually swung slower than Pujols…

In terms of sheer batting speed, Pujols swung his preferred 31.5-ounce bat at a speed of 86.99 miles per hour. Ruth, on the other hand, using a 54-ounce bat, swung at an estimated speed of 75 miles an hour.

…but he swung a heavier bat and, as a result of F=MA, ended up with similar, if not superior distance.

I started thinking about this when I read some articles about Bryce Harper and how far he hit the ball. I thought it was interesting that his bat speed was so much higher than Pujols’.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

54 ounce bat?

i read that article when it first came out, but i didn’t remember that bats were so much heavier then. that’s… crazy.

by kindred on Aug 20, 2009 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That goes to show

how strong some of those guys were, without looking like the power lifters that we see today.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 20, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's a link to the article

I linked to the article above, but it was kind of subtle…

- Article about article about Albert’s swing

Babe Ruth actually swung slower than Pujols…

In terms of sheer batting speed, Pujols swung his preferred 31.5-ounce bat at a speed of 86.99 miles per hour. Ruth, on the other hand, using a 54-ounce bat, swung at an estimated speed of 75 miles an hour.

…but he swung a heavier bat and, as a result of F=MA, ended up with similar, if not superior distance.

I started thinking about this when I read some articles about Bryce Harper and how far he hit the ball. I thought it was interesting that his bat speed was so much higher than Pujols’.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very, very good post

I like your swing analyses much better than your pitching analyses. I think you know my problems with those, and if not then I’m not going to rehash it here b/c that’s not the point of this post.

In any case, I think you hit a lot of things on the head. When it comes to hitting, many of the misconceptions, in my mind anyway, come from what you see in real time as opposed to what can be more easily seen in slo-mo. It LOOKS like guys get extension when they hit the ball well, b/c in real time they do…it’s just that at the point-of-contact they are really really compact. I was told growing up to hit the ball in front of the plate for pete’s sakes! Except on inside pitches, how often do you see that? Hell outside pitches are hit, as my college coach used to say all of the time, off the back hip. That’s not exactly how it works, but you have to let the ball get pretty deep anyway.

I also think that former players just do what they do, but then struggle to explain what they are actually doing. They rely on the mechanical cues or whatever and the things they’ve heard coaches say. As a result they put out information that is not exactly true. Plus, some of the announcers are former pitchers. Former pitchers don’t know a damn thing about hitting except how they tried to get hitters out. (It goes the other way too…if I hear McCarver talk about a pitcher “leading w/ his elbow” again I may snap considering that it is a physical impossiblity not to!).

Anyway, that probably doesn’t make much sense…but that’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it! Good post!

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 19, 2009 10:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The problem...

…is that the naked eye is too slow to see the things that really matter. All it can see are the things that are really prominent and that stretch out over 5 or more frames. That includes squishing the bug and extension.

I have some interesting video of Pujols hitting a HR to RF that implies that he does let outside pitches travel as deep as some people think good hitters do. Instead, he hits everything in pretty much the same place, given or take maybe an inch or two (rather than a foot or two).

I’d love to go over some video with McCarver for an hour.

I bet It’d blow his mind.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 19, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love the post..
The problem is that the naked eye is too slow to see the things that really matter. All it can see are the things that are really prominent and that stretch out over 5 or more frames. That includes squishing the bug and extension.

But that’s the smartest thing that you’ve said so far. There was a study done that Malcolm Gladwell refers to in his book “Blink”, about athletes not being able to explain how they do things. I bet if you asked Tiger Woods how he’s able to hit a golf ball 320 yards he’d be able to explain the things that he’s “thinking” while swinging the club, but that you’d find that his actual motions are quite a bit different on the slo-mo swing cam. Same with tennis players and hitting a serve or forehand — they can tell you how they think they’re doing it, but that doesn’t match up with exactly how their doing it, their subconscious takes over for them because the conscious brain can’t process the information that quickly.

Similarly, world class piano players and typists aren’t consciously thinking about every note they play or letter they type, they’re training takes over for them at some point — you call this muscle memory but it’s also the subconscious brain that’s doing most of the work.

With the Lau method that you disparage so eloquently, hitters don’t DO exactly what the Lau method teaches, they only THINK that’s what they’re doing, because thinking that way allows them to do what the actually physically do, even if the theory doesn’t necessarily correlate to the reality of the physical action.

I don’t think this is something that you can train someone to do, which is why kids should simply play the game and not be coached on the “hows and whys” until much later — their body will figure it out as they play and then you can coach principles and tactics to improve their hitting. As far as I’m concerned, kids shouldn’t be getting “coached” on how to hit and throw until they are in their last year or so of little league, because coaches, no matter how good they are, are just going to screw them up because they can’t process that information. Coaches should just say: “See the ball, hit the ball” and let them figure it out.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 20, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As usual

You make some really good points. On the topic of Athletes talking about how they do things, I came across this piece a while back on Albert talking about his own swing. I’ve been meaning to put it up as a fan shot, but seems appropriate to bring it up here. It is interesting to me that he doesn’t get very specific on what he is trying to do, but rather more basic. See the ball, quick hands and so forth.

"The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert Pujols is better than you." -Jim Palmer

by tangledbrett on Aug 20, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Pujols understands his swing better than most pros

However, even so he says some ambiguous stuff.

For example, a pro friend talked to him and while he did spend some time talking about staying connected, he spent most of his time talking about being aggressive. While that’s interesting, it’s hard to know exactly what he means by that.

P.S. Tony Gwynn has the least insight into his own swing of any pro, which is amazing all the time he spent looking at video of himself.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 20, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Gwynn

would be a great hitting coach because he broke down pitchers better than anyone, not because he knew his, or others, swing.

He and Larry walker had a great conversation on TWIBB back in the mid/late-90’s when they were both flirting with .400 and Walker looked like an idiot savant talking about hitting compared to Gwynn.

But Tony wasn’t really talking about his swing per-se, just what he visualized the pitcher throwing him after studying so many hours of tape.

Shut up, Fritz™.

by Alxfritz on Aug 20, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Walker is an idiot savant

There’s a story out there about when he was in the minors he took off from 1st on a flyball with one out in the inning. By the time the ball was caught, he was rounding third base and heading home. The third base coach told him to get back to first base, so he took off running across the middle of the infield, over the pitchers mound to get back instead of re-circling the bases.

I’m just not sure that a guy with Gwynn’s talent is going to be a good hitting instructor, just like I don’t think Larry Bird would be a guy I would want teaching people how to shoot a basketball. They have innate talent for things that others simply don’t have and can see things others don’t see. As such, they’re not going to be able to relate to people who can’t see those things. This is generally why great players make really shitty coaches.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 21, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I think there's generally pretty much zero correlation between being a top athlete/sportsman and being able to coach

one of the stupid things about football/soccer is that all the coaches are ex-players and soccer players are generally as dumb as rocks.

The Australian swimming coach a few years ago was (I’m pretty sure) actually a guy who couldn’t swim. They were pretty successful (at least until Phelps came along…)

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Aug 25, 2009 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He may be like Charley Lau Sr.

Lau’s approach stuff, and in particular his discussions about tension, are gold. However, his mechanical stuff is crap.

Much of Tony Gwynn’s mechanics stuff directly contradicts his own swing. Maybe these are just cues, but people tend to take them literally and end up with swing that looks anything like Tony Gwynn’s.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

FAIL: anything = nothing

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watching only slow motion video only gives you half the story, Chris. Someone who watches as much video as you should know this. Probably where your lack of real time experience comes in.

Slow video will show you what a guy does, but real time will show you HOW he does it. There is a difference, and looking at one is always misleading and leads to false conclusions.

by Not Impressed on Sep 10, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wondering on the bat speed thing...

Chris-

Do you think there are any benefits to bat speed readings in scouting? It is something I have been thinking about and can’t quite come up with an complete thought.

by BigJawnMize on Aug 20, 2009 8:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If the greatest hitter in baseball isn't off the charts when it comes to bat speed...

…then perhaps the ratings are either being over-rated or even misinterpreted entirely.

My sense is that you want enough bat speed, but not too much.

IOW, if you see a guy being touted for his best in class bat speed, that might not be a good thing (and might even be a bad thing).

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 20, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't know about that

Batspeed + “squaring up the ball” as you allude to with Type I/Type II is pretty much what makes hitting IMO, thus yeah you can have top of the line batspeed and still suck if you don’t have hand eye coordination. Pujols just happens to be able to square up the ball better than pretty much anyone, in parts because of his short swing, incredible plate coverage and awesome approach, which makes his merely good batspeed play up. I’d venture to say if you could speed up his bat maintaining the same short swing/overall mechanics, he’d be better off. That’s exactly what happened with Bonds…he didn’t change his swing mechanics much at all from WiryBonds to HULKBonds, it just got faster for some reason :) and he put up numbers like we’ve never seen before. .809 Slugging from ‘01-’04 Yowza.

But I’ll agree conditionally that bat speed can be a problem if it’s created the wrong way. I’m sure you know you can do it by “wrapping” it too far in the loading process ala Jeff Francoeur which obviously creates problems (“long swing”). If that’s what you were inferring, yay!

[Tangent alert] That’s the one thing I noticed right off the bat with Harper was that he was creating his unreal batspeed without overloading his hands for lack of a better term. He’s basically got Prince Fielder’s swing at age 16. His crazy lower half aggression might have to be toned down which will cost him some batspeed, but the dude is 16 he’s gonna get a LOT stronger. Kid is legit.[/Tangent alert]

But scouts do put more stock in “squaring up the ball” than batspeed (Wallace, Brett) IMO. Chris Dominguez out of Louisville had to have had the best bat speed in college and he lasted till the 3rd round.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Aug 20, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but

I’d venture to say if you could speed up his bat maintaining the same short swing/overall mechanics, he’d be better off.

While this is true, I don’t think it’s possible, or at least is extremely hard to do, which is why you don’t see it (high BA plus crazy power) much, if at all.

When you think of very hard swingers, you could argue that Mickey Mantle did this, and had crazy power, but he also had a lifetime average of “just” .298. It’s hard to find other examples of guys who had both high BAs and high SLGs. I think the issue is that the harder you swing, and the higher the batspeed, the greater the head movement and thus the harder it is to square up the ball.

That’s a tradeoff that you may not be able to reconcile.

Bonds is definitely special, with both a high BA and a high SLG, but as we know he’s not all natural. What Pujols does is all the more impressive because he’s doing it the right way (and I have no doubt about that).

The problem with doing it the Francoeur way is that you have a tendency to lose sight of the ball, which can create its own problems. It can also make your swing a frame or so longer, which is enough to cost you 20 or so points of BA.

Regarding Harper, he’s obviously and early maturer, which means that he may be close to as strong as he’s going to get. The issue of early maturers is something people tend to forget when they talk about projectability. Just because a kid is 6’2" at 14 doesn’t mean he’s going to by 8’ at 18. It probably just means that he’s an early maturer.

If a guy knows how to square up the ball, he will tend to hit the ball harder as his strength and conditioning improve with age.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 20, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

My only point was that batspeed is a good thing all else being equal. Bonds wasn’t natural, but if there was somehow a “natural” way to make Pujols physically more explosive—→more batspeed without changing his base mechanics he’d be better. I think we’re arguing different sides of the same coin. Mechanically trading off contact for high end bat speed can be bad yeah.

Francoeur has that super long swing with also especially horrible plate discipline. Sheffield had a sorta similar upper half (but with even more batspeed, probably the fastest ever) and that worked out A-OK.

But no matter what Harper is going to get stronger. It’s not like he’s jacked, he still has a projectable frame. Aside from that, Griffey A-Rod Upton and the likes were likely also early maturers but I’m not even sure any of them ever hit a legit 502 foot bomb, albeit with metal. Harper definitely has a better HS swing than Upton did.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Aug 20, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harper at 16 is as strong as he’s going to get? Really? So that means there would be zero point for him to ever lift a single weight the rest of his life because he would simply be wasting his time, correct?

That’s funny. I’ve never heard someone say that you are stronger at 16 than you are at any point in your life. Mariusz Pudzianowski must have been something to see as a teenager since he was stronger at 16 vs. now.

by Not Impressed on Sep 10, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“When you think of very hard swingers, you could argue that Mickey Mantle did this, and had crazy power, but he also had a lifetime average of "just" .298”

I know, what a clown Mantle was. Only hitting for a career .298 average. Psshh, he’s so overrated. Anyone can hit .298 at the ML level. That’s tee ball stuff.

by Not Impressed on Sep 10, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jim Rice told

a friend of mine that he wanted a “quick bat.” So he drilled a hole in the barrel end of a bat, put in a dowel, and swung the bat trying to snap the dowel. When it did snap, Rice would replace the dowel. He was creating “whip” by trying to rapidly decelerate his hands at impact and transfer the energy of his swing to the bat head.

Just like a golfer, Rice found an exercise to learn the kinematic sequence of the swing.

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by gocards62 on Aug 21, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting drill

It’s counterintuitive, but by decelerating the hands at the right moment, or changing their path, you cause the head of the bat to whip especially hard.

I’ve thought for a while that I can see Pujols’ shoulders decelerate just before the POC, which will transfer momentum to the bat.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pete Kozma

Just to beef up the comments here:

I have said on here that Pete Kozma has one of the worst swings I have seen as a pro. I actually think he is regressing because this one from last year is better than the ones I have seen this year.

Just a couple quick points:

Look how Pete is leaning forward onto a bent front leg. Compare this to Pujols body angle. Pete leaning forward—Albert severly leaning back. Kozma will never generate power with his swing because it has absolutely no lift.

Second Pete’s swing is long…It is kinda hard to see without slowing it down, but notice how Alberts right elbow tucks into his body and stays there until well after contact—this makes a swing compact. Try to pick up Kozma’s back elbow-it separates from his body well before the point of contact. This zaps power from the rotational force of the body becasue his arms are so far extended from his body—meaning for him to generate similar power (or anywher near the power or any power at all) as Pujols his body would actually have to work much harder. Just compare Pete to Albert—Pete would need to be almost 300lbs of muscle to compensate for his crappy mechanics.

That is just two points. If I had a slowmo I could really break it down, because there are a ton of flaws ( and more seem to be developing as he tries to compensate for better pitching), but these are two big picture items on his swing that lead to him not being a prospect at all in my book.

by BigJawnMize on Aug 20, 2009 9:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This isn't the greatest clip, but...

His front knee action isn’t quite right. It never locks out, but remains soft throughout his swing. I know that some people teach that, but it’s obviously not what Albert does. That implies that he’s a bit more arm-y than is good.

I would like to see a clip of a swing where he hits the ball hard, just to be sure.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 20, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem I have...

…is that there isn’t a good clip of him anywhere. If this was an anomaly you would think someone would post a good swing. I actually keep finding images where his swing looks worse.

by BigJawnMize on Aug 20, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His Draft Video is still available on mlb.com, I'm sure

May/may not be representative of how he swings now.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 20, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm Nervous

I went through the clip frame by frame. I didn’t like the mechanics I saw, as I mentioned above. In particular, his lower body isn’t quite right.

Part of the problem is that those were two crappy swings. However, the bigger issue is that he got fooled badly on both swings I looked at, which suggests his eye also isn’t great.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 20, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

very nice post.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Aug 20, 2009 10:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

now if we could only see color coded areas on his arms and torso that show where most of the power is coming from

would the wrists be super bright?

Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 20, 2009 4:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not Exactly

The wrists just act as a hinge. If you try to fire the wrists, you are more likely to slow down the swing than speed it up due to tension.

The brightest areas would be the muscles that extend the front knee and the muscles of the core. You would also see lots of activity in the muscles of the Biceps since they maintain connection.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 20, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Loves Albert

Hey i love the cards just as much as the next guy. But i think Ken Griffey Jr. has the prettiest swing in baseball

by Chip Reed on Aug 20, 2009 8:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Griffey

Because of his arm bar, Griffey has a hole in his swing that covers the inner 1/3 of the plate. He can pull this pitch foul, but not hit it fair. That is why he can hit for power but not for average.

I broke down Griffey’s swing for the Cincinnati Enquirer a year ago…

- Griffey Swing Analysis

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 20, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually vaguely remember an interesting feature in a magazine during the McGwire/Sosa homerun race

At that point it was actually the McGwire/Sosa/Griffey race. I think it was a big mainstream magazine like Time or something. Anyway, The writer analyzed all their swings, and concluded that Griffey was eventually most likely to break the record at some point because his was the most “perfect” for hitting for power out of the three. I wish I could remember more than that; this was of course over ten years ago.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Aug 20, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was never aware that a career .285 average means one “can’t hit for average”.

With 625 career home runs, I’m pretty sure he’s hit a few on the inner half out of the park fair. Gotta be at least a few sprinkled in there somewhere.

Griffey was .296 hitter before injuries took their toll on him. But yea, let’s not let facts get in the way of your sweet argument.

by Not Impressed on Sep 10, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think this would be an interesting tangent on this topic

Have you looked slo-mo swings of both Albert and Frank Thomas in his prime? It seems to me, judging from what I remember about The Big Hurt, that they had very similar swings relating to the contact point and the leg drive and finish. Thomas’ hands got to the ball a bit different, probably due to his size, but everything else looks very much the same to me.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 21, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I am intrigued by this

seconded

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember Thomas being a lot longer.

Maybe it was just the fact he couldn’t hit a breaking ball down and away.

Shut up, Fritz™.

by Alxfritz on Aug 21, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is generally due to how a player adjusts rather than the length of the swing

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

it was his soriano-ish reach.

Shut up, Fritz™.

by Alxfritz on Aug 21, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thomas had a very nice, textbook swing that was much like Albert's

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most good swings are basically the same...

…from the initiation of the swing (front heel planting) through the point of contact.

What confuses people are the stylistic aspects before and after that brief moment in time that are more prominent because they can be seen with the naked eye.

Again, the human eye is too slow to see the things that really matter.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

High Speed Video

Riffing on this…

I was hoping that the advent of high speed video would make things better, but the fact is that people’s pre-conceived notions about things like when extension occurs and its importance are over-riding what high speed video shows is actually happening when.

It’s also hard to see momentum, and cause and effect, on film. It can only be inferred as a result of a decent knowledge of Newtonian physics.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Part of the problem here

is that when people move in slow motion, like you would do to replicate the perfect swing slowly, you’re using a different set of muscles at a different rate firing at different times than they do when they’re being stressed when swinging at full speed. As I said above, I don’t think being able to look at slow motion video of my swing is going to help me swing the bat any better — I need biomechanical training for my brain so I know what to think in order to create the perfect swing.

I think this side story represents my point here. I once won a free 4 session training at a golf training club, which employed super slow mo cams (similar to what CBS and NBC use to slow down the swing of the pro golfers on TV) to analyze your swing and tell you what you were doing wrong so you can correct it. Here’s the thing — I didn’t swing the club any better after the 4th session than after the 1st one, even though I hit around 200-300 balls on the range between each session. Even though I could see exactly what I was doing wrong, I couldn’t comprehend how to get my body to do those things while I was swinging the club at full speed.

After being frustrated by this, I bought four sessions with a golf pro at my local course. By the end of the fourth session, I had added 20 yards to my drive, hit my long irons better, and was chipping and putting much better as well. The difference? They had no golf pros at this facility doing the training — they simply thought by showing people what they were doing wrong it would give them a chance to correct it. The golf pro has been training duffer’s like me for the last 20 years, so he knows exactly what to say to get my body to mold into the correct form. Things like “throw your weight from your back knee to your front knee” creates the proper function for the weight shift but is broken down into a simple set of instructions. “Keep your swing long” was another one that really helped me — don’t snap your wrists and pull your elbows through at the point of impact, which completely corrected my slice. No slow motion capture could ever tell me how to correct it, it just showed what I was doing wrong.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 22, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ESPN Link

Congrats on the link from Rob Neyer; well deserved.

If you’re going to click through one link today, it should probably be this: the anatomy of Albert Pujols’ swing (with frame-by-frame video analysis).

by holden on Aug 21, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Very Cool

Thanks if someone let him know about my article (and to all for the rec’s).

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Beyond the Box Score's vivaelpujols" also gets the Neyer shout-out.

Cardinals Nation ascendant! Who wants more pie???

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Aug 21, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And now I just realize that erik's recent fangraphs piece also gets linked.

My goodness.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Aug 21, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

can we handle the fame?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 21, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I for one am going to crawl back under my rock

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just don't become dicks and forget us all when you get famous, boys!

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Aug 24, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I recently came across a couple of piece about Albert Pujols and steroids...

…so I added a section to the end of the piece that gives my take on this.

The bottom line is that I think he’s clean.

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

About the high leg kick thing

I caught a Cards / Mets game last year at Shea, went early enough for bp. Two surprises: Rick Ankiel hit balls farther than anyone else and Pujols did this high leg kick thing. I remember because it looked so strange at the time. This was only toward the end of his bp, when I had the distinct impression that he was putting on a show, pulling everything over the left field fence. I understand that this single anecdote doesn’t prove anything, but of all the nights to see the Cards—AP strikes out three times. Apparently he does this once per year, 8 or 9 times so far in his career.

by bobeans on Aug 21, 2009 4:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This is him playing with a Type I swing

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 21, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rick Ankiel = Type 1 swing

which is why whenever he hits bombs in a game they go FAR, only it doesn’t happen very often.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 22, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

.254/.460 is pretty typical for a Type I guy

I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.

by thepainguy on Aug 22, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we need Albert

to watch this video over the next two days to get his groove back.

Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe

by gocards62 on Aug 23, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Long time BCB member here.

Came onto this from Gleeman and Neyer’s posts. I have always felt as if Cardinals’ fans are amongst (or the) best baseball fans around. This brilliant post is one of the reasons why, me thinks.

I’ve enjoyed our rivalry, respectfully, and dearly hope Albert Pujols lives to be the greatest baseball player I have ever seen. This has long been my favorite Pujols commercial. Good luck the rest of the season, God knows we need it.

Dan

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Aug 23, 2009 10:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Whoa...

That commercial freaks me out. The scorpion contraption on Rivera’s face is incredibly creepy.

by Craig_ on Aug 24, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I prefer this

http://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/2009/08/21/mlbtv_6208615_1m.mp4

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Aug 24, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Braves fan... just dropping by

This might be the greatest post I’ve ever seen on SBNation. Kudos… As if anyone who ever saw Pujols swing didn’t realize he was amazing, this really cements it.

Thank you very much

Heyward,Hanson,and Shaffer r ready now!! Why do you think they havent signed the "right handed bat"?

by fatazfoot on Jan 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST

by Swo12bv on Aug 31, 2009 10:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

“That weight shift is important because it helps to power the rotation of his hips and thus his entire swing”

So Chris, what triggers his weight shift? Since you said the weight shift powers the rotation of the hips, what is powering the weight shift? Magic?

Is Pujols secretly a member of the Thundercats and right before he swings he grunts under his breath, “Weight shift, HOOOOOOOOOOO”???

by Not Impressed on Sep 10, 2009 8:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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