The October Team
Good to see He Who Shall Not Be Named Correctly hitting the baseball hard, walk-off or no walk-off. (But walk-off, if I have a choice.) Now that he's begun to hit again—.346/.393/.500 in his last seven games—we can try out the new narrative: he didn't hit anything for a while, then he began to pull the ball, in the accepted Smooth Home Run fashion, for a week or so, to no effect. It's too easy to attribute the lack of lift on his fly balls to his much-reported weight loss, because it is basically attribution by connecting the only two things we know about him... which is to say that my head said no, but my Scout's Gut said yes. And now, having begun the slow march back to playing weight, voila: his good swings become enough to make even Jay Randolph alert and excited.
It's so easy, which is why it probably doesn't mean anything. But there you are.
Anyway, Rasmus's bizarre splits, which almost explicitly defy foolhardy bloggers to see a pattern—two bad months to start the season that are almost identically valuable but do it in completely different ways, one great month with no walks, and now a July that follows the May pattern (low OBP/high power) and an August that follows April (high OBP/no power)—got me thinking about one of the best arguments put forth during the Tigers-in-Three moment of 2006: the team that won 83 games in the regular season was not the one that won 11 in October.
The team that, GOB willing, gets to the NLDS this October will—more obviously this time—not be the one that went 25-31 in May and June. But what does that mean?
THE GOOD
1. Matt Holliday >> Chrick Dunkiel
This, of course, is the big one: Matt Holliday replaces two guys who, luckily for this baseball writer, have sucked almost identically hard over the course of the season. What's he do in a short series that the Platoon of Despond wouldn't? For one thing, he gets them there; his extraordinary performance over the first 20 games of this deal has been worth an incredible 1.5 wins over a replacement player. One example of a replacement player is... Rick Ankiel, whose performance to this point in the season has put him exactly at 0.0.
Even in a brief series, and even accounting for Holliday's inevitable descent from Mount Olympus, that kind of boost is difficult to overestimate. Ankiel's MLVr—the fraction of a run, per game, that a team would gain from plugging him into a lineup of average hitters—is -.118. Holliday's number last season (with the Cardinals this year it's 1.1) was .320.
That's the difference between, say, Albert Pujols and, uh, Matt Holliday. If a series were to go seven games that difference would be theoretically worth three runs. Losing Brett Wallace is going to hurt, and it's going to hurt for quite a while. But the difference between the absurdity that was the off-season Matt Holliday discussion and the trade that actually happened last month is that Rick Ankiel's collapse has made what would have been worth less than a run per playoff series into something that could influence the outcome of the postseason.
2. The Infield Shuffle >> The Old Infield Shuffle
Over the first two months of the season it would be charitable to say that Skip Schumaker played second base badly—if the resounding agreement of UZR and Dewan's fielding runs was any indication, he played second base like no one who has been allowed to play second every day has done in the last five years. He played it like an outfielder, and not a good outfielder—Tris Speaker, the Gray Eagle, was said to play center field from just behind second base, so close that he was a factor on double play balls. Skip Schumaker just stood behind second base.
Around June, Joe Thurston found himself in a similar situation. After his surprise April, and his surprisingly decent May, he became the de facto starter and found himself hitting like Skip Schumaker played second base. He managed four extra base hits in two months of full-time starts, during which he hit .220. His OPS hung around .570 (but it's OBP heavy!)
As if that weren't enough, the Cardinals, through May, had committed themselves pretty thoroughly to Khalil Greene, who had seemed like a pretty thrifty upgrade in March. I don't know if you've heard about this, but he struggled with anxiety problems, and also the bat, hitting .171/.213/.220 in May before leaving the team. The My Name is Brendan, this is My Brother Greene, and This is My Other Brother Greene platoon split starts at the position for a few weeks until both Greenes fell out of the picture, and everyone realized suddenly that Brendan Ryan had used his time in Memphis to become Ozzie Smith.
Unfortunately, he's not an era-adjusted Ozzie Smith—shortstops can hit now, due to a 1992 Supreme Court decision on the subject (People v. Ordoñez), so .284/.324/.377 is not quite so impressive as it was in 1989. But the combination makes him an above average player, the likes of which the Cardinals thought they'd signed up for when they traded two bottom cards off their Inexhaustible Supply of righty relievers.
Meanwhile, at second base, Schumaker's UZR/150 began its slow ascent from the Mariano Duncan Trench. In April and May it hovered around -30; in June, -19; now, as of the most recent Fangraphs update, it's -11. All the while his raw UZR has stuck between -8 and -9. I don't know if this makes him average, but even mediocre is a major improvement. The trade for Julio Lugo, and the return of Khalil Greene, also means that he never has to face a left-handed pitcher again.
Finally, at third base, the Cardinals replaced Joe Thurston with Mark DeRosa, who managed to avoid Cardinals infamy by not missing the second half of the season with a wrist injury. The Lugo and Holliday acquisitions mean that DeRosa's versatility (he was originally cast as a solution in the outfield, too) no longer makes him uniquely suited for the Cardinals, and his fielding at third is erratic as advertised, but the combined acquisitions have meant that Thurston's done little but replace Schumaker at second base, something his above average glove there warrants.
This total recasting of the infield is Mozeliak's secret coup of the year; he came into June with a catastrophic loss of third base depth and a bizarre experiment at second. In two moves he managed to fill third base, provide some insurance at short, and hedge against Schumaker's poor defense and complete inability to hit left-handed pitchers. That makes a huge difference now, and it will in Hypothetical October, too.
3. Fifth Starter Question Mark
Yes: a question mark for the fifth starter is good news. Todd Wellemeyer has spent most of the season being an emphatic exclamation point. Q: Will the Cardinals starter give up as many runs as innings pitched? A: Wellemeyer!
But his eclipse means a few things. For one thing, the Cardinals might get better-than-replacement-level performance out of his replacements down the stretch, which could make a difference in the still-tight standings. For another, having no set fifth starter means that La Russa won't be tempted to tinker with what are obviously the best four pitchers in his playoff rotation.
THE QUESTIONS
1. The right-handers
Watching Jason Motte pitch has become a terrifying proposition to me. It's not that I don't have faith in him, though I don't, at this point—it's that I'm sure there's still an excellent reliever lost somewhere in his career, and with every stomping mop-up outing I'm watching him on eggshells, hoping that he shows that 2008 form for one inning at a time.
His bad mop-up inning and his excellent partial inning over the weekend did a little rationalizing of his days-of-rest splits, which have, to this point, been held up as a beacon of hope. Unfortunately, when each is moving, even in a different direction, toward 6.00, that's not a good thing; after those mediating innings he's at 11.42 with no rest and 4.55 with. He's been bad on no days rest, not very good with it; he's sucked in a box, and with a fox, etc. etc.
But if it were just Motte struggling, the Cardinals would be in fine shape. But over the course of the season they've traded Chris Perez and Jess Todd and found out that Kyle McClellan has a serious control problem, one he simply does not strike out enough batters to overcome. If Ryan Franklin were to begin sucking (that is, more than he does now) any start that does not go past six innings will become Chinese-curse interesting in a hurry.
With Smoltz and Eduardo Sanchez both in the dismissive-response stage of the Elusive Mozeliak Answers continuum, the only hope for the right-handers is that Blake Hawksworth continues to pitch well—so far, so good—or that Jason Motte starts to. After all the activity it's a little difficult to watch a question be answered so passively, but the Cardinals are fresh out of excess faberge.
2. Kyle Lohse
I don't know what's wrong with Kyle Lohse, and westcoastbirdwatcher being banned and all I can only speculate, but since his lost June he's been occasionally effective but noticeably dull, in the opposite-of-sharp sense; his command is gone, his fastball is lost, and after his told-you-so April has come a told-you-so May, July, and August, as his season-making walk rate from 2008 has fallen almost perfectly to his career numbers.
Even if he continues to struggle, or just continues to be Kyle Lohse, this isn't a season-ender. In the playoffs, the Cardinals need either Pineiro or Lohse to look like a third starter. Joel appears to have that covered.
#
Unrelated, underreported note: those of you who join me in checking Gulf Coast League scores every so often will have noticed that one Joe Mather doubled in Quicksilver Jr. in their afternoon beatdown at the hands of the GCL Astros.
The GCL is just barely a minor league; nobody cares about the score, nobody watches the game, and were it not for the other group of differently-affiliated teenagers at the other end of the field there would be no stats kept at all. But it's good to see Mighty Joe/Joey Bombs/Bizarro Duncan taking some swings on his way back to earning those nicknames. This is step one to making the roster in 2010, though probably not as a third baseman.
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901 comments
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Comments
i think..
someone at yahoo sports is having some fun with Heath Bell… the direct quote re: the line shot off of his leg:
"Yeah, it was throbbing but I blocked it out pretty good," Bell said. "I was surprised how big it was when I took my pants off."
Things are just getting worse for him in StL.
by mooseknuckles41 on Aug 17, 2009 2:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He may come down with a catastrophic illness before the next trip to STL
Maybe eat a pound of raw chicken meat or something…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i saw that quote in the espn article....
reminds me of matt stairs’ quote re: getting his ass hammered by all those guys after he hit the pinch-hit HR in the postseason last year.
by djones9 on Aug 17, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fire Joe Morgan's take on that was absolutely hilarious:
“You want to rephrase that, Matt?”
“Yes, I do. Ahem. When you get that nice celebration coming in the dugout, and you’re getting your weiner diddled by the guys—”
“Okay, thanks. That’s enough.”
by Ray Lankford on Aug 17, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't we all,
don’t we all. sadface
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by il rosso on Aug 17, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never even visited that website
heh
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's awesome enough....
…that even looking back and reading it now is totally worthwhile.
by mtalken on Aug 17, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think Moz is going to acquire a Right Handed Reliever
I just don’t think it will be Smoltz. Moz was on 550 today and he mentioned he would like to add another Right Handed arm. He didn’t think the spot would be filled internally. When asked about Smoltz he acted like he hasn’t heard anything about him. Could be playing coy but who knows.
When our biggest problem is an extra Right Handed reliever we are not doing to bad. This is the best Cardinal team I have seen since 2004. I don’t lose faith in this team. This team is starting to feel clutch. Coming back and getting that walk off win against Health Bell was huge. No closer is safe against this team. The bottom of the order is carry its weight.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 17, 2009 3:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
it’s so nice to watch the game, and even if we are down by 3 or 4 runs, realize that it’s still worth watching (and not have it be excruciating in the late innings, crosses fingers)
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JOEY BOMBS!
he will be an impact bat next year, I guarantee it.
ok, I might be a little biased.
by TheBirds on Aug 17, 2009 3:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We Can Hope.....
….that Joey B takes Ank’s place as 4th outfielder, pinch-hitter, and occasional spot starter at 3rd. We need Joey bombs!
:=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Aug 17, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boog can actually hit and field
It’s just that he hasn’t had much playing time to get his rhythm right. Y’know, for his drummer. Or for other fielders to get his rhythm right, because I’ve seen at least two missed plays because they thought Boog would hoover it. His real coup was getting stronger over the offseason and putting a halt to the errors earlier this season. Matt Holliday and his magic sunflower seeds could only make him better.
I’ve been hard on him batting at the top of the order, and it turns out he was that kind of player the whole time. Crazy, crazy Boog. Don’t make errors, shirt-licker, and you’ll be fine.
However, Danup mentioned Ozzie Smith and Boog in the same sentence. Jose Oquendo is going to kill him now. And me. Even if that was a good Newhart joke.
*
Playoff readiness. The gaping holes are now… weakest links. Like a real lineup! It would put my mind at ease if those links were strengthened. I still don’t know if Matt Holliday would be able to field a pop fly with beer poured on his lego knob. Or if DeRosa can overcome his shortness for balls hit over his head. Or if Lugo can make certain throws when he needs to, and no, I’m not going to ask him. Or if Yadi will ever find a happy medium between his snail’s pace to first and stealing home plate. Or who, other than Lego Legkick, will show up with power this time. Playoff hopes have escaped through less.
Above all… this whole business of waiting till the last three innings to win games has got to stop. Surely they can figure out a starting pitcher faster? Because, really… one day a starting pitcher will stay for all. Nine. Innings. Or have a bullpen that functions. What then, Redbird Staches! What then!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 3:53 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Rec'd for 'lego knob.'
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
seconded
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Aug 17, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Albert Pujols + LEGO = utter bliss
I would 6-ly maim somebody for an Albert Pujols-as-LEGO keychain.
Better yet, when I was at the LEGO store looking for a gift for my nephew (and completely geeking myself out at the same time), they had a Knights chess set done up in LEGO. I would pay a signficant amount of money to get something like that done up as Cards-vs-Cubs. Which of course begs the question: who would you pick as a the 16-man chess set of all-time Cards? Who for the Cubs? And please, no jokes of who gets to be the Queen, just call it The Prince.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Aug 17, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
holy nuts, you guys like the lego.
6ly.
Actually we are still looking for an Indiana Jones photoshop of Mr. Holliday. Anyone? Anyone?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spants made a fanshot
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
woohoo!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bawwww, I didn't know I was needed, lol
’Grats, spants, it looks good
by vexedtechie on Aug 17, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. I could've done much better.
Just dashed it off this morning.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PhotoMeth'd.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Boog and Ozzie
Maybe Boog can do cartwheels in honor of Ozzie.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Aug 17, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hell no
Wrist is Boog’s chronic injury of choice. Shoulder too, I think.
Ozzie’s not pimping that good feet company for nothing…
Boog should, however, do a helluva lot more hacky sack.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thusly

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
here
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 4:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lohse
Not to be that guy or anything…but Lohse is on the hook for 3 more years and ~$30M more. Goody. I’m not necessarily opposed to having Lohse on the team, but that contract was silly-puss. Yes, I used the word “silly-puss” and I’m okay with it. Some invent stats like FIP or tRA or wOBA or DORK, but I like words. Again, I’m okay with it.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 5:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Note--"DORK" is from one of my favorite FJM Smackdowns
Courtesy of Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star and channeled by Junior. Enjoy!!!
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 5:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FJM, come back!
Seriously, we need FJM to write an article about loss columns.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FJM is guest-editing Deadspin sometime in September.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did not know that.
Thanks!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sept. 16
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 *more* years and $32MM...
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Call the Cubs
they may want to trade Soriano’s contract for Lohse’s.
by ridgesee on Aug 17, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I, for one,
would probably take two Lohse contracts before I took one Soriano contract. I really want no part of that deal…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 17, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It'll be fun to see which contract is worse:
Vernon Wells or Alfonso Soriano.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure it's definitively Wells
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Aug 17, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My goodness it's not even that close is it.
I actually decided to look them up on Cot’s to check out the specifics. Holy Crap is Wells’ contract terrible. On the surface they look pretty similar, which is why I made that comment.
Wells, according to Cot’s, goes from making 1.5 mil this year to 12.5 next year, to 23 million in 2010! And then 21 million annually for three years after that! Good lord!
At least IHOP’s contract is spread out in a not-totally-insane manner.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Posnanski talked about bad contracts a few posts back on his blog
He was of the opinion that the Rios contract wasn’t that bad…a point I disagree with…but came to the conclusion that Vernon Wells’ back-loaded monstrosity was the worst in baseball. I tend to agree, considering that Wells has not discernible baseball skills now and will probably have negative skills in a few seasons. Which is of course when he’ll really be making a lot.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I actually read that come to think of it
He didn’t get as much into the nitty-gritty details though. And I guess Wells’ decline looks scarier than Soriano’s possible decline right now too.
He really ripped Ricciardi to shreds in that article, in a “nothing personal, I’m sure you’re a nice guy, but WTF???” kind of way.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poz seems too nice to simply savage someone
He always takes that “You seem kind, but I really don’t think you did a good job. Respectfully, of course. I mean, we can be friends!” tact quite often. Maybe one day he’ll turn into the Incredible Hulk of baseball writing and just crush someone and show no remorse in the process….I’d read it.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano's is horrible but at least he can play a little bit
Wells is just awful and has no baseball skills at all right now. Soriano can at least hit some homeruns.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take three Lohses
that Soriano deal is abominable, and getting worse by the day.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 17, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lego puss, Lego crack . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Lohse is just struggling to get back into the swing of things
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's had a string of bad luck
I haven’t seen anything to suggest he won’t bounce back. But the injuries, the weird hits, the sheer number of road games since he got back from rehab. The personal stuff.
He’ll settle.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I'm a bit less sanguine with each passing start,
I still essentially agree.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*when* he settles is what has me worried.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are some weird issues plaguing Lohse right now...
…but we’re talking about a league average pitcher who is getting paid a decent amount of coin for three more years. It doesn’t get any better from here on out barring a Pineiro-esque revival.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
which will be in '10
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
does anybody have buyer's remorse
vis-a-vis the derosa trade?
the team’s vanished depth at 3b has magically reappeared, even despite the trade of wallace -- freese is healthy and hitting, glaus is playing 3b again, and khalil greene is back on the field. any or all will be available for the stretch run to keep joe thurston out of the lineup, and meanwhile the player the cardinals could really use right now is . . . .
chris perez.
admittedly, things looked very different back in june. most people, including me, thought the trade was a reasonable risk at that time (although that was before we knew jess todd was also part of the deal). but with just a few weeks’ hindsight, i have a nervous feeling about it -- not over perez’s future-season value (which we willingly sacrificed), but over the present-year cost.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 8:33 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't miss Perez that much
At best, he’s a 3.50 ERA reliever, and he isn’t likely to do that this year. Even if he was, it’s hard to argue that ANY non-closer is more valuable than a position player, and a good one at that. A 3.50 ERA in 30 innings is about less than .5 WAR. Derosa over Thurston/Freese/Greene is probably 2 to 3 times that amount.
The guy I’ll really miss is Todd, who will probably be moved to his rightful position as a starter, with the A’s
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Todd is with the Indians
and still pitching in relief. i get those trades mixed up too . . . .
in measuring perez’s value, i’d make a couple of adjustments. first, he’s not just pitching 30 random innings; he’d be pitching almost exclusively in high-leverage situations, which magnifies his value a lot. if you use WXRL instead of WAR, a good setup man can easily be worth 1 to 2 wins over 60 games.
but where the cards will really miss perez is in those short playoff series in october. in that setting, a high-leverage reliever can actually be worth considerably more than a position player. in 30 random at-bats over 7 games, there’s no telling what sort of opportunity a given position will have to impact the outcome -- most likely he will have very few high-leverage opportunities. whereas a setup man can have exclusively high-leverage usage. the cards are undeniably vulnerable in late-inning relief, and that weakness could be magnified against a playoff-caliber offense.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where are you getting WXRL?
I was having an argument with some guys at BtB that WAR undervalues relievers.
The playoff argument is tricky. You can just look at like a binomial – each event has a certain chance of occuring. So if you have 1 inning to decide the winner of the world series, and Perez is pitching instead of Motte, than the chance of Motte giving up a run is only something like .10% higher (or something like that) than if Perez gives up a run.
That’s why hitters are more valuable. Because while the leverage of their average situations may not be as high, they have more of them.
Again, I’ve never heard of WXRL, and would be very interested in hearing about it.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WXRL is a Baseball Prospectus stat
it’s basically a leverage-adjusted, win-probability-added stat. a really good setup man will add 5 units of win expectancy (ie, 5 wins).
re the postseason, i’m swayed by the baseball prospectus “secret sauce,” which correlates postseason success to three factors -- all of them related to run prevention. see explanation at http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5541&loc=interstitialskip.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh sorry, for explanation of WXRL
definition is here
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=253
leaderboard is here
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204021
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
VEP - make sure to check the glossary for
definitions of WX, WXL, and WXR – gives some much needed context to WXRL
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds like a really solid stat
I’m still a little curious on how it is calculated. Is it fielding independant?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think it is
Since the “WX” part of it is using win expectancies, wouldn’t that typically mean that it is park and fielding independent?
Also, all4tookie is right about checking out the definitions. Here are quick links to WX , WXR, and WXRL.
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Aug 17, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by "typically"..
I mean that taking park and fielding adjustments into account part of the deal when it comes to calculating win expectancies.
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Aug 17, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, I checked them already
It looks like it’s WPA + WAR, which seems kinda wierd. I put up a FanPost at BTB about it, so hopefully someone will have an aswer therer.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But if what LB is saying is right, maybe that’s a better approach if it better captures high-leverage situations.
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Aug 17, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing I want to see
Is fielding and park adjusted WPA, scaled to a league distribution of LI situations. So reward clutch pitcher, but don’t reward oppertunity or fielding like WPA does.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So xWPA then?
:)
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Aug 17, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't trust that study much
Not that the numbers are wrong, Nate’s a smart guy and I doubt he would screw up a regression; but, you have to question why those factors (good bullpen, starting pitcher, etc.) would do better in the playoffs than usual.
Really, the teams that should win in the playoffs are the teams that score more runs than there opponents. I fail to see why pitching, or other specific attributes, would have an impact in the playoffs moreso that usual.
Obviously, the have had an impact, but as you know, correlation doesn’t equal causation…
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the playoffs are different
because they’re a lower run-scoring environment. teams that don’t pitch well don’t make the playoffs, so the games are lower-scoring. bill james documented that empirically, years and years ago.
as a result, there’s a premium on run prevention -— because each run you give up is more difficult to get back against a good staff. if you give up 3 runs in a regular-season game against the astros, you’re probably going to win. but if you give up 3 against the yankees with one of their top 3 starters on the mound, your odds of winning are much lower.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but that goes the same way for hitters
Teams that hit well make the playoffs just as often as teams that pitch well (even if they haven’t, there is no logical reason that they shouldn’t). So if you don’t score enough runs, you are bound to give up too many runs to a superior offense.
Again, I have no way of proving my theory, but something about the “secret sauce” seems fishy to me.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i trust BP's numbers
for the simple reason that it’s empirically based. same basic methodology as PECOTA -- you take a close measuremet of what has happened in the past, and then you use that as a basis to calculate your odds for future events. there’s not 100 percent accuracy obviously, but it’s a very useful tool if you want to play percentages.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
And I don’t mean to argue with you, as you don’t really seem to have an agenda, but I don’t think that empirically basing things is always the right way to go. Especially, in something with as small of a sample size as the playoffs. I would like to see a sim, or another type of theoretical analysis.
Here is a post by a smart guy who echoes my frustration:
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i definitely see the frustration in that past.
but i don’t see the argumetn. silver has a lot of data on which he based the secret-sauce formula; that holds more sway with me than mgl’s argument from first principles.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I question the use of emperical data
Even with all of these seasons played, the playoffs still represent a small sample size. Nate says the certain categories correlate, or have correlated, with postseason success, but that doesn’t mean they will continue to.
I have yet to see a convincing argument of why good pitching is better in the postseason than good hitting.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
leave the "why" aside
do you accept silver’s correlation of postseason success with strong pitching and strong fielding? he tested hitting factors too, and found their correlations with playoff success to be much lower than the pitching / fieliding factors. is there a flaw in silver’s methodology that invalidates his empirical findings? maybe so, but i haven’t ever heard anybody (including mgl) offer a convincing one . . . .
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, apparently Silver is using the season stats of each team
Correct me if I’m wrong. That seems wrong on a lot of levels because A) a full seasons worth of stats doesn’t come close to accurately measuring a team’s true talent level, and B) the distribution of players wiill be different in the postseason, for the reasons that brackenthebox mentioned.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many games does a team...
have to play to “come close to accurately measuring a team’s true talent level”?
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
by guayzimi on Aug 17, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure it's A LOT
Sky Andrecheck did an analysis at Baseball Analysts, and found that PECOTA projections were about as predictive as ~200 actual games, based on his equation.
And PECOTA isn’t perfectly accurate in the first place.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
VEP, your point B above
is directly on point, i think. the distribution of players in the postseason is different from the distribution in the regular season -— it’s skewed toward the players who are best at run prevention (ie, the best pitchers). perhaps that would support the correlation that BP found between key aspects of run-prevention (power pitching, great fielding, dominant relief) and postseason success?
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to take an example
matt holliday might end up taking about 6 percent of the cards’ overall plate appearances during the regular season, and about 12 percent of their postseason plate appearances. whereas chris carpenter might throw about 13 percent of their innings in the regular season, versus about 30 percent of their innings in the postseason.
holliday has a greater influence in the postseason, it’s true -- but carpenter’s is disproportionately greater.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps it's a redistribution of innings
If I understand the “secret sauce” correctly, it says that three regular season statistics (power pitching, good closer, good defense) correlate with postseason success. It does not (i don’t think) say that those same statistics are more meaningful in the postseason than hitting stats. As such, it doesn’t state that run prevention is necessarily more important than run scoring in the post season, just that regular season performance in those categories is more predictive.
An alternative possibility (at least for the pitching relationships) is the following: your offensive makeup doesn’t really change in the postseason; maybe your backups get slightly fewer at bats, but I’d imagine it’s not a huge difference. Your pitching distribution, however, may change dramatically. Your top starters stay in longer than they would otherwise and pitch on short rest; your closer comes in a little earlier than he would otherwise. As such, the performance of the top of your rotation (power pitching) and your closer is probably more important in the playoffs than in the regular season, which might show through as being more predictive (i.e. teams outperform their regular season behavior if they excel in these categories).
by brackenthebox on Aug 17, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That second reason might be the case
It could also be that teams only use there best relievers in the playoffs. I DON"T believe that good pitching is better than good hitting.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well stated
what you’re describing is the concept of leverage -— deploying your most importnat assets in the most important situations. in the playoffs, you can control leverage vis-a-vis your pitching much more readily than you can leverage your hitting.
the outcome of that leverage is that it drives down scoring. that’s an empirical fact, not a theory - october games are demonstrably lower-scoring. leverage helps to explain why this is so. but the other factor is that october teams have got more assets to leverage -- better starting pitchers, better relievers, better closers. that’s how they got to october in the first place.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bad argument forthcoming, but true nonetheless
it’s also a bit colder in the post-season. Add that to better pitching teams than most regular season clubs and you’ve got a more solid argument.
by stlfan on Aug 17, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
i agree with you that WAR undervalues relievers. I think it’s a wholly unsuitable tool for determining their value for a whole raft of reasons (mainly the incredibly unsophisticated means by which it determines leverage, which is, IMO, the main determining factor of a reliever’s ability to add wins). Although I feel it is (to some extent) a suitable means of comparing within their own group (but FIP/tRA does the job equally as well if not better) it’s simply unsuitable for comparing them with hitters and SP.
However, I feel (from lboros’ brief description of it below) that WXRL doesn’t really do a good job of valuing them in absolute win terms, either. Just intuitively, I can’t believe that Ryan Madson is worth 5 wins/year more than (insert replacement-level reliever here – let’s say KMac 2009).
I also disagree that Perez is a big loss this year – a big part of his success for the Indians has been his return to pre-Duncan-meddled arm slots (slightly different for his slider and FB), from what I’ve heard, and I’m not certain he’d have been given the chance to do that here this year.
Also, if DeRosa is a type A, I like the trade. We get three months of him, and then (more likely than not, as it’s hard to see someone giving up a first round pick for DeRo) either a supplemental pick and a 2nd rounder (I think that’s how it works if he signs for a team with a protected 1st round pick?), or a cheap DeRo next year. I still think he’s probably a 3-win player next season, and, realistically, if you pick the best available college closers with + stuff and no shot at starting, you’ll get those guys in the supplemental and 2nd round (we got Kelly and Bittle in rounds 3 and 4 this year), and realistically have two players with a VERY good chance of turning into Perez and Todd.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 17, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
whereas a setup man can have exclusively high-leverage usage.
Perez’s leverage index at the start of his innings this season was .39 (i.e. very low leverage situations). I’m not a proponent of LI for valuing players but I do think it shows (to some extent) that TLR wasn’t using Perez in those high LI situations. Would a RHRP for those scenarios be nice? Sure, but Perez wasn’t going to be that guy for TLR.
*Note: I’m not making a value judgment on whether Perez should have been. I’m merely stating that he wasn’t.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgive me, I'm getting my LI's mixed up
to start the inning, Perez was in low leverage situations. When entering the game he was in about average leverage situations (.97). I think the foundation of my point still holds true that Chris Perez was not going to be a high leverage guy on the Cardinals.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true, TLR didn't trust perez
but you wonder if he might reconsider, given the loss of confidence in (and effectiveness of) motte.
you never know -- he might still prefer john smoltz over either of them. . . . .
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PLEASE
I love Smoltz, and he’s got a 36-9 K:BB ratio in the AL East. ERA my ass.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like smoltz too
he’s always been one of my Fantasy favourites, even though you can’t really guarantee he’s gonna pitch more than 100 innings in a season (at least for the last few years). There’s very little reason not to like him as a reliever. I don’t think it’s going to happen, but I would be very excited if it did.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 17, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering that his line for first time thru the batting order
is much better than second time thru? I would take a chance on him. He knows how to pitch. He will only be facing a few batters at a time and in the right situation, no lefties.
I know I’m not saying anything you don’t know just reiterating.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
smoltz is 42
and coming off shoulder surgery. his fastball velocity is down. he yielded 8 hr in 40 innings. and he has never been used as the cardinals propose to use him -- as a ROOGY, coming into the middle of innings to face 1 or 2 hitters.
i realize some of the peripherals look good, but i’m dubious that he can do the job they want him to do.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love it for the opportunity to get some video of his mechanics
But as a pitcher, he’s mostly done.
I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.
by thepainguy on Aug 17, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why do you say that?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really don't think a guy who can post a high-7's K ratio...
…in the AL East can still pitch? He was coming off major shoulder surgery and was thrown into the most dangerous hitting division in baseball and into a hitter’s park to boot. Yet, his peripheral stats were really quite good. He seems to have problems v. lefties and twice through an order, but in theory those should be lessened as a reliever.
Is he done as a top-flight starter…he very well may be. But the dude can still pitch.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or that he'd accept the job the Cards would want to give him
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 17, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His HR/FB ratio is well above league average
He’s been getting unlucky. His xFIP is 4.32, which is very good for a pitcher’s ball park in the AL EASt.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't xfip adjust for all that?
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
by guayzimi on Aug 17, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
xFIP is FIP adjusted for an average HR/FB rate
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that team average hr/fb...
to take into account the stadium, or league average hr/fb?
I thought it was team.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
by guayzimi on Aug 17, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure
I’m pretty sure it’s league
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One Thing Smoltz Has Shown...
…over his career is that he can adapt to new situations (starter to reliever, and back again). I think he want to go out with a bang, one moore championship run, and he would hold his nose at being a ROOGY to pitch for a WS cowtender.
:=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Aug 17, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a lot to TLR's usage vs. how we would use a player
Az is right. Perez was not being used in very many high leverage situations (although, I think he was leading the team in holds for a while there, even if he was doing so in the sixth and seventh). TLR was not going to use Perez in the late innings without being forced to do so. John Smoltz is exactly what TLR’s heart desires, so we should probably get him.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That weaknes is definitely
going to be magnified in a playoff situation. What we have now will not cut it in the playoff run. As of now, besides a good closer, the best we have is probably Hawsworth
by ridgesee on Aug 17, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget the team will have Welly and still has strings to Clement and could probably coax Mulder, too.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clement is out of baseball
He’ll be the head basketball coach at his old high school in Pittsburgh this winter. I doubt he’s even throwing anymore.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 17, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that
anyone BUT you might pull out ERA out of a hat to use as a statistical argument…(slight exaggeration on “anyone”)
by stlfan on Aug 17, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just picture thurston at 3rd and batting 6th.
by Evilfrog on Aug 17, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's a good reason why they call him Evilfrog
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do and I don't
I miss Perez and I think he will be better than Motte in the end, and Todd may still be a starter as well. But if we sign DeRosa for a couple years it may work out in the end. But with Mather getting healthy, Freese hitting like he was expected too, Craig destroying the ball, and all of them capable of play 3B about as well as DeRo I don’t know if it will even be worth it to sign him anymore, besides the “proven vet, clubhouse leader” stuff.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
by StLHugo on Aug 17, 2009 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He'd be good as a left fielder, when we don't resign Holliday
Or he could move to second and half Skip move to left.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Perez was still in STL
Gawwwstab! would not be
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Aug 17, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am a huge DeRo fan
and have always wanted him next year. But with the (apparent) desire to sign Holliday, I’m not sure a) we can afford DeRo without destroying our pitching and b) the picks can be easily ignored if he’s a type A (or even a B).
We really need some money for a SP next year, and we really need more picks to bolster the farm. To me, that suggests DeRosa might be low on our list of priorities next year. Especially if we re-sign Trever Miller (which I think we will – he’s potentially worth at least a supplemental if we let him walk, and I think we should).
Obviously, however, no Holliday = DeRo contract is probably a must.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 17, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With DeRosa,
my hope is that we offer him arbitration. In my view, it’s the best possible scenario. If he accepts, great, we get him for a single year. If not, great, we get a draft pick.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't we looking at the likelihood of wrist surgery
this offseason for Dero? Not sure I’d want him for one year with that on his plate.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Aug 17, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we'll miss Perez when he blossoms next year
But by then the point will be moot.
(I was over at Amazin’, and they were plotting to get DeRosa and Holliday for next year. Dirty pond scum.)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a way to blow up their site?
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you need them around
to watch them cry.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
I will stop searching for internet dynamite then.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How could anybody?
Perez wasn’t exactly lighting the world on fire in STL before he left. Sure, we all see the potential, but potential doesn’t win games, or finish out innings. Last I checked, he wasn’t lighting things up over in Cleveland either.
On the other hand, DeRosa’s bat and glove have played well. And I have to think he’s helped out some in the leadership/intangibles department. I’m sure you don’t believe in that though.
So, to answer your question…..no, no remorse at all. I do wish we’d have given up someone a little less “ready” than either Perez or Todd though, if for no other reason, then we’d have an extra, serviceable arm available.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to follow up.....
The organization is in win now mode. Not completely sacrificing the future, but with were an iffy playoff team before the trades, and we certainly weren’t a legit playoff contender, I wouldn’t think. Now we are. With the uncertaintanty around resigning Pujols, and now Holliday, and with Carpenter and Franklin getting older, this seems like as good year to “go for it.”
Glad the FO agreed.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I tend to agree that the Carp factor may be slightly underplayed. We have one of the best pitchers of his generation (who is a total injury basketcase) fit for the first time in 3 years, and the best hitter of his generation fit and having a possible career year. I really think it’s a pretty good year to sacrifice a little bit of the future to go for it.
If Carp pulls up lame again next year, which has to be more likely than for an average pitcher, given his history, there’s no way we can put together a team as good as this one, even if we did have Wallace, Perez, Todd and Mortensen.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 17, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this 100%.
You shouldn’t waste a year of Carp awesomeness because there is no guarantee you will get it again. Add to that having APu in his prime AND being ridiculous to boot and you have a recipe for contention. It appear that the FO thinks so or they wouldn’t have made the moves they did. I, for one, intend to enjoy the ride for as long as it last (hopefully until the last game of Oct.) and save regret for another time.
by cardsgirl95 on Aug 17, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I thought we gave up too much for Holliday until someone here at VEB presented this argument…and I totally buy into this. Having Holliday hit .450 helps too!
by nmstar on Aug 17, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we DID give up a lot,
but the deed is done now and so we might as well enjoy the ride. So far, its been fun.
by cardsgirl95 on Aug 17, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just hope that lots
of other Cardinal fans can remember these points and keep their heads in the next 2-3 years if this go-for-it year doesn’t pan out (or even if it does), and we pay the price in the future.
Yeah, I know, maybe I should wish for hot fudge sundaes to fall from the sky, too.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 17, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should check again...
the guy hasn’t given up a run since July 7th. 12 innings, 3 hits, 4 walks, 13 Ks.
I bet Mo would trade DeRosa for Perez and Todd right now if he could. Of course, we didn’t know we were going to get Holliday when we trade for DeRo, but now that we have, DeRo is less valuable.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
by guayzimi on Aug 17, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
wouldnt that mean we’d be playing thurston/green at third?
by dugmartsch on Aug 17, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah possibly...
K Greene/Craig/Freese/Thursty…. That’s a step down, but if Todd and Perez were in our pen, we essentlally wouldn’t have a bullpen problem at all. I guess I’m confident that Holliday and Pujols can do the heavy lifting on offense.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
by guayzimi on Aug 17, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh.....
Greene and Thursty aren’t the answer, they didn’t like Craig before, and Freese isn’t 100% ready.
I’d rather have DeRosa, and go find a suitable arm to fit in the pen with our lefties, Franklin, K-Mac, and Hawk.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
problem with that next year
is if they sign Holliday and DeRo, you’re stuck with Lohse as #3 SP, then two out of Boggs/Garcuia/Walters/Hawk manning the other 2 slots. That’s before any injuries, and dependent on a healthy Carp. AND it might mean taking a guy out of the pen who’s done OK (Hawk). It’s not an easy decision.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Aug 17, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
color me optimistic
that Lohse is firmly entrenched in the 4-spot by the end of next season. Garcia is pitching well early in his rehab. My purely speculative, and probably overly optimistic, opinion, is that Garcia starts the year as a 4/5 (depending on whether we sign a back of the rotation starter). By the all star break, Garcia outperforms lohse and moves to the three. \wakes up from said dream feeling all warm and fuzzy inside…. then realizes that Lohse makes about 15 times garcia…..
by cdb on Aug 17, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think Lugo would get some look there now, too.
I would see Lugo having an opportunity to play 3B given his performance, so I’m not sure you’d be stuck with Thurston/Greene over there. Frankly, I haven’t been that impressed with the defense I’ve seen from DeRosa, so I don’t really see Lugo being a downgrade there. Lugo’s problem is range, and I would have to say that Ryan makes up for that issue.
I’m not convinced Perez or Todd were definitely the answer to fill the high-leverage ROOGY position this year, but it does seem unfortunate that we are now looking for RHRP after trading away a plethora of such in the past year.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could you me more condescending?
Last I checked, he wasn’t lighting things up over in Cleveland either.
You’re wrong.
And I have to think he’s helped out some in the leadership/intangibles department. I’m sure you don’t believe in that though.
Having had the “players aren’t robots” conversation with LBoros on a couple occasions, you’re off base in your assessment of his position. Maybe if you try approaching things like a conversation rather than immediate disparaging the other commenter. . .
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't disparage anybody.
He asked a question, I gave MY answer.
You metric guys don’t ever seem to like/believe in clubhouse chemistry, or intangibles. I figured LBoros was the same way. If not, fine. I simply said that he probably didn’t believe that as a cover in case he did.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does that mean?
“like/believe in clubhouse chemistry, or intangibles.”
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you don't believe in something not proven to exist
ergo, you are a giant numbers loving people hating jerk!
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Aug 17, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not everything can be proven.....
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why we don't consider it, nor does anyone else, in player analysis
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just b/c you can't prove that it helps....
Or measure how much it helps, doesn’t mean it doesn’t.
If you think having a team full of good guys, that all get along, and all pull for each other is a good thing that helps on the field, why wouldn’t you look to add those types of players, assuming they have talent too?
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you would
But you wouldn’t place any value on it. What if I told you that you could acquired one of two players: a 4 WAR player who was a dick, or a 2 WAR player who everyone loved. If you choose the 4 WAR player, you are essentially saying that his intangibles are worth 2 wins, which is a complete guess and may be completely wrong.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like WAR....
But I’ll play along.
That is where you have to measure it. Do you have enough character on your team already so that player a wouldn’t disrupt everything?
I’m more talking about when you have two relatively equal players…..I’d take the one that has a good rep. It also depends what you already have on your team. I happen to think that losing Edmonds and Rolens and some others over the last few years left us with some leadership/veteran holes on the team. Those are filled now.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously, if you have two equal players, you would take the nicer one
It can’t hurt!
However, how confident are you in your ability to value character. If you were told that 1 players stats would provide 4 wins, but he was a dick, and 1 player’s stats would provide 2 wins, but he was nice, or a winner, or whatever; how much value would you place on the latter players character.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Character isn't the reason we're suddenly opening up a lead over the rest of the division.
It’s the replacement of Thurston/LF madness with DeroLugo/Holliday. It might matter that our acquisitions are nice guys, but it’s far more important and far more quantifiable that they are punishing the ball.
Also, veteran leadership and character is such a subjective concept. Rolen was a hell of a player, and by most accounts he was a bit of a prima-donna otherwise. Seems like that worked out fine.
I was actually on board with you earlier. Perez was nothing but potential, but the metrics I want to see is K’s, lack of BB’s, and few HR’s. Just because he’s had a good stretch in CLE doesn’t mean our world should come crashing down. The radar gun has no effect on the scoreboard.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
these are mulitmillion dollar athletes
that have dedicated their lives to reach this point at a level that almost everybody walking this planet can’t achieve. Not Ms. Lippy’s 1st grade class.
Barry Bonds sitting in a leather recliner in the clubhouse does not effect another players OPS.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You get your ass out there and find that fucking dog!
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 17, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But industry, my friends...
that was a revolution!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tino Martinez is a terrific character/leadership guy by all accounts.
Does that mean we shouldn’t have dumped him despite his underperformance? Do you really think his leadership made the team better beyond his underperformance?
I think character and leadership are important aspects of any team game, and I think VEP is undervaluing it by excluding it all together. However, a team full of “leaders” is silly, anyway. Any group needs only a single, accepted leader, and this team has Pujols to lead the field players and Carpenter to lead the rotation. A guy can be a complete putz and still have a terrific desire to win and compete. As long as the guys on the team are driven to compete every time, then I don’t care if they kiss babies or kick puppies, they can play on my team any time.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How have I have excluded leadership?
When has a situation ever come up when I’ve disregarded leadership? I just think you can’t quantify it, thus, it’s too had to base decisions off of it.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was talking about excluding it from ...
the decision making process, which is exactly what you claimed here again. How have I misconstrued your statements? You said that you can’t quantify it, so it should not factor into evaluating players. That, IMO, is excluding it from your evaluations of players.
You can’t have it both ways there. You can’t say you value it, but then that you can’t derive a value for it. It is a subjective evaluation piece, and it should not be a defining measure because of such. However, any evaluator has the option to place whatever value they choose on it, and you yourself have said that you feel it is of some value.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll ask you this same question I asked Sooner
When offered a 2 WAR guy with great intangibles vs. a 4 WAR with crappy intangibles, which player do you choose?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not particularly familiar with calculating WAR, but...
it is important to understand that crappy intangibles can affect the way other players perform. If your argument is based solely on quantifiable measures, then there is no argument that you’ll accept from me, anyway.
I have played with players with really crappy attitudes, and I’ve watched how it affects other teammates. It costs a team in close games against the highest competition when winning is not every player’s highest priority. It affects how other players play when they don’t trust in that person getting the job done.
Of course, these things should affect quantifiable items, but it depends on where you look. Those things are more likely to appear in stats most likely to be dismissed as small sample size, or in the stats of the players around them. That’s a difficult study to perform, and consequently it will be difficult to answer the argument.
I don’t classify character of a player as the same as character of an individual, though, they will carry some of the same traits. IMO, a guy can cheat on his wife and beat his kids, but still be a value to his team. He could also rescue ants and baby bunnies in his spare time, and be a detrimant to his team. To me, team character is about giving everything you have to personally succeed on the field while also making your teammates better players when possible.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think his point is that if intangibles really do affect performance,
they will be reflected in that players stat line.
This doesn’t account for positive/negative affects on teammates, but there is no credible way to measure this. How many extra runs does Ludwick bring to the table by being a “good” guy? How many did Carl Everett subtract for being crazy? There is no obvious way to tell, and further we can hardly distinguish who is “good” and who is “bad” because all we get is what we read or see on TV. Check out the FJM archives for more dicussion of this topic. It’s uncanny how “good” clubhouse guys tend to be short, white, or awesome at baseball, whereas “bad” guys or “cancers” are not. White guys who stir the pot get labeled as “fiery and throwback” or “lunchpail”, but others are “disruptive” and “selfish”.
In the end, it is usually too cloudy to make a judgment on a player’s intangible contribution, so it is effectively ignored when talking about value. Now if there are two players of roughly equal talent level, by all means give me the guy with the perceived better demeanor. But if there is a distinguishable talent gap, give me the better player every time. There is just too much bias to determine how a player’s makeup affects his teammates performance.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if we're comparing apples to apples, but ...
I don’t disagree with your statements in principle. I don’t know what the FJM archives are, so you’ll have to pardon my ignorance on that topic.
I’m certainly not going to devolve into a race debate with you, and I don’t think that’s what you were trying to do. Unfortunately, with the social climate in this country, it’s impossible to have an honest debate on the points you brought up there, so I guess that’ll have to go unchallenged.
The reason I question whether or not we are having the same argument is because I was arguing from the scout/GM perspective. It seems as though you are arguing about how intelligent of a discussion we can have in a forum such as this. In that case, you are absolutely correct. There is no way for me to honestly know anything about these players “’cept what I read in the papers.” The GM/scout has much more access to that type of information, and can therefore use that in his/her evaluation.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to assume you knew about FJM -
www.firejoemorgan.com. Its a snarky blog that was aimed at bad baseball writing, really top notch stuff (co-written by a creator of The Office). Anyway, one of their observations was about the process behind how players get labeled as monsters or saviors.
Anyway, I wasn’t trying to bring up race per se, just that our perception of a guys clubhouse contribution is much, much more convoluted that a box score and derivatives ever could be.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.
There were some funny things in some of the archives. I didn’t find your specific reference, but it was still pretty funny.
Perception is definitely subjective, and it should only be used sparingly. As you and vep both pointed out, it is best when used as more of a tiebreaker than as a primary evaluation factor.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when quantification is unreliable
one tend towards logical modeling (as in discrete math, not as in rational). That results in statements like “I would never want Bonds on my team” as opposed to “I would only sign Bonds for 1.5M.” The unfortunate part is that you end up placing the most weight on the least quantifiable things in such a framework.
Given the choice between that and ignoring intangibles (for decision making purposes), I’ll take the latter.
by brackenthebox on Aug 17, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that ...
rationality is a requirement for any decision. You are taking the argument to an extreme, though. A person can still set a subjective value for “intangibles” upon which they can make their decisions without reaching the two extremes that you have set above. It seems like a cop out to simply ignore a factor because you can’t agree with somebody else on the value of it.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you're weighting it, you're quantifying it
Call it semantics if you will (and I probably would), but as soon as you put a number on intangibles, they’re no different than other metric other than being less well vetted. This naturally leads to vep’s basic question: how many wins are intangibles worth?
by brackenthebox on Aug 17, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure.
I’ll go along with that, but the point I was making is that it will be a subjective quantification. Thus, the question that vep is asking is not really answerable. That is to say that every person’s answer will be different. I believe that Sooner is overvaluing “intangibles,” but I feel that ignoring them is a mistake, as well.
If evaluations and decision making did not involve some sort of “intuition,” then there would be no requirements for a human GM. Write your quantifiable evaluation rules into a computer program to sort relational database tables, and simply go with the output of the program. The GM is relegated to nothing more than a contract negotiator, which could be done by someone with little to no baseball knowledge.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
I’m putting this here because I don’t know where else to put it. Would you have wanted Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, or Bonds on your team? I would have wanted every single one of them. Yet, by most accounts, they were not “good” teammates. Nonetheless, their greatness helped contribute to many a “W” for their respective teams.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly, yes.
The last several years I wouldn’t have wanted Bonds because I don’t believe he played the games to win. I think he was more interested in his numbers than the outcome. The other three you named, I would definitely want on my team.
Did you actually hear that Mantle was a bad teammate, or just a guy that didn’t take care of himself away from the field? The only complaints I’ve ever heard about him was due to off-the-field issues pertaining to the way he took care of himself.
Regardless, Ruth, Cobb, and Mantle gave everything they had on the field; and I’m not sure you could have found more competitive players from the reports I’ve heard. Often, being ultra-competitive comes with the price of being considered a jerk outside of competitive situations. I think that definitely applied to Ruth and Cobb.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we're getting distracted from the main point here
which is that you were spectacularly wrong about perez “not lighting it up” in cleveland.
by djones9 on Aug 17, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If 12 innings matter....
I happen to think they don’t.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
obviously, you do!
your comment about his performance in cleveland was based on his 12 innings there. unless i’m missing something.
by djones9 on Aug 17, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They do matter
because he’s been awfully good in short stretches during his short career. If he’s ever able to harness that over a long stretch of time he’s going to be a very effective reliever.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
the verdict is definitely still out on him
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So has Motte.....
and K-Mac, and Hawk to some degree.
Heck, you all are going goo-goo over Perez, yet Hawk has been just as good, if not better, over nearly twice the innings.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the record:
I’m goo-goo over Perez, Todd, Hawk, and Mortensen. And I’m coo-coo for CoCo Puffs.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
I guess we shouldn’t take any performance seriously until it’s been repeated for 400 innings?
Where do you stand? First it’s that 12 innings don’t matter, then you argue that the 2.1 innings preceded it mean everything by saying that those 12 innings didn’t matter, but that his “entire time in Cleveland” was what you were talking about, implying that the 2.1 innings that were horrible are more important than the 12 that have come after it.
Why don’t you just admit that you didn’t look at his performance in Cleveland before you made that comment? That would be a hell of a lot easier than trying to defend this as badly as you have so far.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They really don't
But when you say that a pitcher hasn’t been lighting the world on fire, a statement that is 198% fucking false, you don’t get to run and hide behind SSS when you’re shown that you are wrong. Does his 13.2 inning stretch of good pitching mean much? In a predictive and statistical sense, not really…but it is an undeniable fact that he HAS pitched well thus far and you were too damn lazy to look up any numbers to refute that. Why do you even bother commenting?
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how you conveniently leave out the other "0.2" innings.
Brilliant.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HFS
©
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 17, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're in a good mood today
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is akin to saying:
“I hear eating pasta before every game increases a team’s chances to win, therefor we will serve nothing but pasta before games from now on”
You have no way to “prove” that hypothesis to be true. Sure, having a bunch of nice guys in the clubhouse might help, but it might also hurt as well. There have been playoff teams full of guys who hate each other and playoff teams full of guys who all like each other, but that doesn’t mean we should ever evaluate players based on “intangibles”. I think you have to do this in basketball and football because you need cohesive team play to win in those sports and players have to work together. That just isn’t the case in baseball. As Jim Leyland would say: “Give me the twenty five most talented assholes in baseball and I’ll guarantee I win some games.”
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
QED
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like your sig
Scrubs?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup. He improved that line too.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's been proven that people
like to make up shit and claim “their gut” told them to just because people can’t handle abstract data and want to attach a pattern to it.
i.e. the greek gods. And for every “can’t be proven” argument there’s the flying spaghetti monster rebuttal (no i’m not going into religion here, I’m saying that you can’t prove that there is a bizarro planet that is the exact opposite of earth!) .
Summary: People make up shit to explain what they can’t understand. That’s proven.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It probably does exist!
I’m just wondering what someone means when they talk about clubhouse chemistry. Do they think it helps winning, yet doesn’t show up in the stat sheet? That’s impossible, because the definition of winning is scoring more runs than your opponenet. However, does not contributing to stats help that?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i kid, i kid
strawmen are fun sometimes…
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Aug 17, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It means.....
That I want/like veterans guys that don’t have ahole personalities, and tons of off the field problems on my team. Guys that go out there an lead by example. Guys that are always teaching the young guys. We had a few guys like that…..Carp, AP, maybe LaRue…..but adding Holliday and DeRosa only improves that. They’ve been around. They’ve been through a tough playoff race. They know what to expect, and how to deal with it.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carp?
Would this be the same Carp that gave Ludwick a black eye? If Milton Bradley gave Kosuke a black eye, it would be in every paper from here to the end of time because Milton Bradley is seen as a malcontent.
This whole line of reasoning is EXTREMELY subjective on your part. Guys who get the “good guy” moniker aren’t always “good guys” and the same is true for guys with the “bad guy” moniker. DeRosa is supposed to be one of the best teammates in the MLB, yet, as he so eloquently put it: “Why have I been on 5 different teams if I’m such a great teammate?”. You’re putting a whole lot of stock in “intangibles” that you can’t measure and can’t possibly know because you don’t know any of these guys personally. Maybe Mo can judge a player’s character, but I certainly hope that isn’t at the top of the list for player evaluation.
FWIW, you always say that we have to trust TLR because “he knows things that we don’t know” and now you’re basing player evaluation on things that you can’t possibly know in any way, shape, or form.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
for the record, we like that Carp is a perfectionist bastard.
/not actually adding anything to the conversation.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my point though
My definition of a “good teammate” might be totally different from someone else’s definition of a “good teammate”. It’s awfully hard to make a distinction relevant on a such a subjective matter, especially when you know nothing about any of the relevant subjects you’re talking about in a personal way.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm on a pro sports team,
my definition of a “good teammate” is the guy that’s gonna put the most $$$$ in my pocket, whether through playoff appearances or by just making my team better and making me look, therefore, better. Especially if it makes me look better to some old-school GM who wants players who “know how to win,” and by virtue of the fact that I played with Pujols for 3 years, he thinks I’m the guy.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 17, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ding ding ding
Well put
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't use this same definition.
To me a “good teammate” is the one that helps me win the most games. That includes not only performing at their position, but not doing things that drag down my other teammates. As long as my teammates are all giving their best to win, then I don’t have a problem with them.
I’ve never wanted somebody to pay me based on anything other than my own performance and attitude.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
And for someone that hates small sample sizes, I’d say 12 innings qualifies.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question wasn't whether those 12 innings were predictive
but whether he was good in those twelve innings. He was but, please, don’t let little things like facts get in the way of your continued biases.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never referenced those 12.
I was talking about his entire AL tenure.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not true.
you said he wasn’t lighting things up in cleveland. how is that not referencing his 12 IP in cleveland?
by djones9 on Aug 17, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he has pitched more than just those 12.....
I referenced his entire time there. And while he hasn’t been terrible, he certainly hasn’t been some kind of stud either.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's pitched 14.1 innings in Cleveland
and got off to a rocky start, although this could be from changing leagues, pitching coaches, etc. There’s always an adjustment period.
In his last 12 innings though, he’s been a stud. You can’t argue that.
So you’re essentially arguing that he hasn’t been a stud in the other 2.1 innings he’s been there so arguing small samples here is ludicrous because the sample your looking at (be it 2.1 innings or 14.1 innings) is also small.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, stop it
He has pitched 14.1 innings – you are saying those extra two made a difference? His WHIP over all 14 innings is less than 1.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought we abandoned WHIP as a useful statistic
last year.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 17, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's still useful on the extreme ends, isn't it?
Or at least moreso.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine, ERA+ is 121
just the quickest stat handy from b-ref. Its hard to suck with a WHIP that low, was my point.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I'm still a guy that puts together my own "quality start"
statistic. But every time I reference WHIP or ERA, I get lambasted around here. I really did get your point, all4. sorry to pick on you.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 17, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By all means, nitpick....that's why were are here
I think that when people criticize others for misuse of stats its because he/she is using them in way that clouds the decision – like using a screwdriver on nails.
Valid criticism is on the order of “you can’t use ERA because he plays in a pitchers park against shitty competition, check this stat out” not just “ERA sucks”. Its easy to get bogged down in the latter (I know I do) – sometimes the old ones are still illuminating if used properly.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
saying that "he's not exactly lighting things up"
is brilliant on your part. because you can claim that it’s more or less accurate if he’s pitching “sort of well” or “not that great.”
it’s an awesome way to say nothing while making it seem like you’re saying something.
by djones9 on Aug 17, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude has skillz at that
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Aug 17, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Partly cloudy with a chance of rain
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THEY ARE ONE AND THE FUCKING SAME!!!
He did awful in his first (ONE BAD GAME!) in his first relief appearance there and has pitched brilliantly in the short stretch since. It’s not like he had two terrible years before he came to the Cardinals…he was a rookie w/ them! So what do we have to go on in his AL tenure besides these 13.2 innings, 13 of which have been really good?
Are you intentionally obtuse or a troll? I really am not sure which it is right now.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
6ly
calm down, dude. You’re getting way too worked up and becoming what you are disparaging.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 17, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I am
…And I wouldn’t act in this manner with any other poster, but Sooner’s behavior is becoming borderline unacceptable, and I’m sure to others he’s crossed that line already. Go back through his history and you’ll see one instance after another where he makes some stupid, unsupported claim, and then when called on it he backpedals like a madman, tries to say he didn’t say what he said, or defends his position with poor logic and a stubborn, haughty, arrogant attitude. I tried to play nice, that didn’t work. I’m a patient man, but one thing I cannot put up with is his intellectually dishonest positions and his stubborn insistence on clinging to them. I’m hardly the first member to feel this way.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
6ly (ok, I had to type that) so what?
This is the internet. For every 1 of you, there are 256,000 of him. It’s not like we can go back to 1992 or whatever and say “Ok, no more AOL access to the internet.”
I recommend drinking while you’re on the ‘net. And I don’t want to hear any of this “but I’m at work” silliness.
by sdrone on Aug 17, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I am...
…and I’m a teacher, so boozing may or may not fly. Maybe I’ll slip it into a water bottle or something…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, on the bright side,
as a teacher you have a chance to be instrumental in helping a few kids to grow up to be careful, evidence-based reasoners. That’s really your only alternative because you’ll never shake off the annoying commenters, especially on a sports blog.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Aug 17, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I do my best
I always say the most important thing to teach a kid isn’t what to think, it’s how to arrive at a conclusion. One could passively accept whatever someone tells them, or they could go find the answers for themselves. I think the second one is better, personally.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't worry about it.
sooner is just really, really, really, really, really, really unintelligent. we should probably just feel sorry for him.
by djones9 on Aug 17, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this really necessary?
Sooner may have been making an invalid point, but despite his tone he’s avoided direct ad-hominem. How about you do the same?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, how about just...
refuting his points if you think they’re invalid and being done with it. Cursing and calling people trolls (leading others to call people “really unintelligent,” see below) makes this site less enjoyable for others. The gang mentality in this thread over some pretty innocuous comments is off-putting.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 17, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree with you
a simply “Yup, I fucked that up by not looking at his stats” would suffice for most of us, because it’s blatantly obvious to everyone that’s what he did.
I’m a pretty big stickler for my positions, but I rarely use anecdotal and un-provable evidence to back them up, and when I’m wrong and am proven wrong, I have no problem admitting it. His ideas have been proven wrong by factual evidence to the contrary many times and I’ve yet to hear him simply admit that he’s wrong — he’ll simply add more and more layers of bullshit arguments until the point where his point is so vague that you can’t distinguish what he’s actually saying. I simply concession every now and then would be appreciated from those of us who look at empirical evidence and back up our theories with well researched opinion instead of what we think about things right off the top of our heads.
I don’t think calling him out, swearing at him, or calling him a troll is productive, but I can see what some people are that frustrated with his continuing reluctance to ever admit that he might have overlooked something.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's true, the closest you get to an admission of that sort,
is a disappearance the likes of which we seem to be witnessing right now.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be nice
if we had a picture of a dog with a Sooner football jersey on walking away with it’s tail between it’s legs. Then we could just post that when he effectively disappears every time…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We aren't arguing on equal ground.....
Most of the posters here live and die by what some measurable stat says. So yea, if you say player a sucks, and the stat you follow ever so closely disagrees, you are wrong. I’m sorry, but I’m not using “stats” to disagree this time. I rarely am, b/c the things I’m arguing on this board, are opinion driven, and I don’t believe can be measured. How many times have you seen me arguing about players’ abilities, or the seasons they are having, or comparing two players? Not often. Most of my time on this board is defending TLR’s managing style and lineups, roster makeup, and stuff like that. That stuff isn’t statistic driven, no matter how much you want it to be. Which makes it an opinion. And IMO, I’ve yet to have someone present an argument that will change my mind, on THOSE things.
You say I won’t admit that I’m wrong, yet I haven’t seen anybody ever admit that I was right. And I’ve been right about alot.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're not here to elucidate
you’re here to agitate. You’re provocative and dismissive of other opinions when they don’t match yours. Everytime you enter a thread in the last month, it devolves into a post about you rather than about the subject. The common elements to those posts: you.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I certainly don't make it about me.....
Maybe you should tell the “others” to keep it about baseball, or ignore me. I ignore plenty of posts and posters alike that I don’t agree with.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this
Sooner may not have popular opinions, but I’ve never seen him be an instigator
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
by stlhulsey on Aug 17, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh it happens.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tis true
I recall at least one post where the subject line was simply “Dumbass” in reference to another poster
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You must be new here
because it happens all the time.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AZ, if anybody here gets too worked up, it's you.
Get over yourself man. I realize you’re one of the big cheeses now, but your constant vitreole rivals that of anyone here.
We all know Sooner is not a sabr-fanatic. Personally, I agree with a lot of what he says. Sometimes in our playground of statistical fun, we forget that there are actually people playing this game. People that have all sorts of stuff happen to them.
Sooner may usually disagree with the majority of our posters, but I have never seen him provoke a fight. He usually passionately argues his point, but never in a disrespectful way. If anybody here does that, it’s you, and we can’t kick you out.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 17, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay enough
Anyone pretending Sooner doesn’t try to pick fights is delusional. All of his arguments are started out of thin are, and he changes them after his first one gets denounced.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Speaking of personal attacks,
way to come in and add absolutely nothing while exclaiming like a douchebag.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're certainly welcome.
:)
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 17, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute
I have my problems with az too, and they’ve been well aired on VEB in many different debates.
However, you don’t have to be a saberfanatic to look up how Chris Perez has pitched in Cleveland this year. Sooner simply didn’t do that, and that’s blatantly obvious to anyone who’s followed this thread. I’m sorry, Eck, but making a comment about a player’s performance without looking it up at any one of the websites for stats that are listed in the margin (or even the WWL’s site) and then trying to argue your way out of it instead of just admitting that you were wrong is simply bad behavior.
Sure, he may make good points sometimes, but he never EVER backs them up with good evidence besides his own opinion, and he claims his opinion as fact all too often. When someone challenges his opinion it he then gets defensive and starts referring to “unmeasurables” and “things we can’t possibly know”, when he generally infers these things in his opinions on things, as if he knows more than we do when there’s no reason for us to believe that.
I’m not for personal attacks on here, but I’ve made them and apologized for them. But I don’t think that anyone I’ve debated with could say that my arguments are lazy and that my opinion isn’t well researched.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken, Four.
You are certainly correct sir.
Sometimes I just feel bad for ole Sooner, ’cause I do like a lot of what he says. He does get ganged up on from time to time, but you are certainly right that he does earn a lot of the crap he catches.
BTW, I have a nickname! This and FR are the only blogs that I really visit, and I am damn proud to have a nickname. thanks Four!!
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 17, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read "az too" like "artoo"
azru really is a robot isn’t he
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 17, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
These drive by character assassinations from you
aren’t much fun.
If you don’t like something I’ve said, flag it or call me out in the comments. Ambiguous statements at the end of a 100 comment thread that contained about 20 posters don’t do anyone any good. I’m not above the rules.
I’d say that I get along with 98% of the commenters here just fine. I’ve been the butt of several running jokes and I’ve been willing to admit when I’m wrong (see Schmidt, Jason).
It’s not that Sooner disagrees, it’s that Sooner comes to make a statement that he will not back down from even when blatantly wrong. He hides behind statements like “stats can’t measure everything”. Obviously, I’m not the only one who has been frustrated by that if you’ve read the thread.
So I’m just going to walk away from the rest of this . . .
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most of this doesn't make any sense...
Most of the posters here live and die by what some measurable stat says.
This isn’t me. I’ve fought over the precision and use of stats on this blog probably more than you have. Just because you don’t buy into stats doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t at least look at them before making an ill-advised and incorrect comment. You know where to find the stats, do the due diligence of looking them up once and a while. Even if you’re going to argue against them and what conclusions others draw from them, you’ll at least get respected for researching your opinion.
Most of my time on this board is defending TLR’s managing style and lineups, roster makeup, and stuff like that. That stuff isn’t statistic driven, no matter how much you want it to be.
Really? Have you had this discussion with TLR? Because he uses stats to make a lot of decisions or at least steer his thinking on his “gut decisions” and occasionally he makes a bad one. He’s human for pete’s sake! But to relentlessly defend him like you do makes the rest of us feel like you think he’s infallible, when he clearly isn’t, and none of us are either.
I would also say that this statement is very convenient for someone who can’t make four mouse-clicks to find out what Chris Perez’s splits are in Cleveland this year. This statement really says it all:
b/c the things I’m arguing on this board, are opinion driven, and I don’t believe can be measured.
Essentially you’re saying that they “can’t be measured” which translates into “I can say whatever I want because nobody will ever be able to prove me wrong” because there’s no way for anyone to factually prove that you’re “wrong”. You’ve never, EVER admitted that you’re wrong that I’ve seen, so you must be as infallible as you believe TLR to be, and even Tony occasionally admits a mistake — you never have.
You say I won’t admit that I’m wrong, yet I haven’t seen anybody ever admit that I was right. And I’ve been right about alot.
So have I — but you see me going around humping trophies when I’m right do you? You toot your own horn all the damn time around here until someone brings up information that completely refutes your “opinion based hypothesis” you disappear into thin air. I find that interesting….how do explain that behavior?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tried that, it didn't work
I’ve tried the dick-head approach, and sort of feel uncomfortable with that position too. I agree that it really does no good, but sometimes firmer responses are necessary. I’m not sure deserved to be handled the way I handled him…
Anyway, I think I’m going to try the ignore approach for awhile…We’ll see where that goes.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you guys just don't deal with trolls on a regular basis
the farther the thread hugs the right margin, the happier they are.
but it could be worse. at least no one’s trying the pseuicide. now, at BCB, that might actually work.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow..
…u guys get riled up over 12 innings pitched by a guy who isn’t even on our club anymoore. Anyone want to argue cow many angels can dance on the head of a pin? We cud try a moore cowstructive debate, such as why cows are far superior to humans, especially in their love of Cardinals Baseball!!
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Aug 17, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Similiar to Perez future certainty - who delivered toys to Santa when Santa was a kid?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grow up.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Constructive
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhat (un)related. Was Perez in TLR's ever available doghouse?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perez who?
Are you talking about a young pitcher? Yeah there’s some young pitcher or two around here somewheres, all pitching and throwing and such.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont know why you guys play along every time...
he obviously wants to stir shit because he gets off on it, or something…and every time we fall for it. just let him say whatever he wants, ignore it and move along.
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
by nomar34 on Aug 17, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't know why I do either...
…can’t help myself, I suppose.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gah what?
Perez has pitched his ass off since the trade. SSS WARNING his line is:
13.2 IP, 15K/4BB, 1.32 ERA, 3.37 FIP
Pretty damn good, no? There are some real questions as to whether or not Perez’s new success is a random blip of good play or whether his velo would have returned if he had stayed w/ Duncan, but nevertheless it’s s pretty damn good run of pitching.
Now, let’s look at this patently wrong claim:
On the other hand, DeRosa’s bat and glove have played well.
Um, not so much. Here’s his 110 at-bat line, which I’ll grant is better than Thurston was likely to achieve, but is still underwhelming:
.236/.292/.482, 8 HR, 30K/7BB
If you like a lot of solo jack-a-dongs and strikeouts but aren’t really big on walks, sure his bat has played freaking awesome!!! But if you don’t like those things much, if you see those solo jacks as a nice thing (that would have been nicer if others had been on base) and really wish he’d been adding something else too…well you’d be me and probably a lot of other fans too.
How about his glove? Well, it’s become quite clear that DeRosa’s range @ 3rd is pretty much arm’s length to either side. He makes nice plays in the Derek Jeter mode…they look really nice but would be made easy by a better, rangier fielder. I’m very underwhelmed by DeRosa’s throwing arm too. UZR is not a very good predictor and is prone to SSS blips, but it’s also a respectable record keeper…and the record on DeRosa’s play at third is hardly exciting. -1.6, -7.9 UZR/150. Not very good, and it jibes with his career play at 3rd. His defensive value is that he can fake a bunch of positions, not based on his ability to actually play any of them.
I don’t doubt that DeRosa has brought something to the clubhouse atmosphere. I don’t know, maybe he tells a mean fart joke. But his play has been underwhelming in total. If our standard is “a player better than Thurston,” then the Cardinals could have conceivably made a whole bunch of trades that wouldn’t have cost them a talented swing-pitcher (Todd) and a big arm, K-machine (Perez).
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your stats are wrong. I'm not even going to read the rest of your post.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Aug 17, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hwat
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You keep (h)using that (h)word
I do notta tink it means hwat you tink it means.
[/end lame excuse to break out a The Princess Bride quote]
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Aug 17, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well he's not wrong
For some reason I couldn’t get fangraphs to come up so I bopped over to b-ref and used their game log tool. Sadly, I forgot to point out that the numbers I listed are NOT including the one poor appearance he pitched terribly right after the trade. Oops. I fail to see how that changes my larger point, but I did commit a careless error.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sooner
could learn a lot from a comment like this:
- I made a mistake
- It was a careless error
- I recognize it and now am moving on
Damn, that’s so much easier than spending 45 posts defending a lazy mistake.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 18, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa, Glaus is playing 3rd again?
I didn’t know that.
by sdrone on Aug 17, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
was throw out of the Memphis game too
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
by StLHugo on Aug 17, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahah how do you get tossed out of a rehab stint??
somebody needs to lighten up.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was rehabbing his helmet-throw.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DISAGREE
The bat-flip.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
F-BOMB at the ump FTW!
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Aug 17, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there ain't no pixelating that, my friend.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He just trying
to get into mid-season form.
The guy who really needs to come back to earth is Julio Lugo. He flat-out sucks, or at least he did until he sold his soul at the foot of the Gateway Arch. by Not Bruce Froemming BCB
by RiverRat on Aug 17, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't force batter's-box-flip-outs.
You’ve just gotta let the belligerency come naturally.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and really, ANYBODY can tell a AAA ump just what his mother's been
up to that he ended up with repitillian eyes that can’t tell the difference between a ball and a strike.
telling a major league ump that, well, that’s a skill that doesn’t always transfer. you don’t know you’ll be able to do till you’re in the big leagues.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Aug 17, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just started laughing and couldn't stop for a minute
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good to see him getting his throws in . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Perez another one
of those Young Pitchers who cannot pitch well for Dave Duncan? The other day, someone on VEB made the case that Perez has returned to his old arm slot which increased his velocity. Would this have happened if he stayed with the Cardinals?
Part of me is a tad disappointed in the DeRosa trade, because DeRosa’s not hitting for much of an average and he’s not taking many walks. But, his power numbers are as advertised, if not slightly better. Having Holliday certainly takes the pressure off Mark.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he might have been one of those
i remember the discussion about his arm slot, and gameday shows that his velocity has increased since the trade to cleveland. on the other hand, he did pitch reasonably well under dave and tony -- not great, but not terrible.
i just look at it this way -- any team that is seriously considering “bolstering” its late-inning relief with john smoltz or justin speier . . . . well, that’s a team that could use a pitcher like chris perez.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can agree with that.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this stage of the season, a playoff-oriented team
will “consider” anything, including options more ridiculous than Smoltz and Speier. That doesn’t mean they’ll actually do the things they’re considering.
Remember too that the rosters expand in two weeks. At the minimum, it should be possible to bring up an innings-eating arm or two to free Hawksworth for high-leverage appearances, which thus far it looks like he’s well capable of handling. A one-two punch of Hawk and McClellan for the setup role doesn’t look like something urgently in need of bolstering to me.
by StanTheManFan on Aug 17, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hawk is going to need to continue pitching well imo
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arm slot looks the same per PFX in both STL and CLE
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's curious that his fastball is, well, faster.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have they converted him back to the windup?
I don’t watch cleveland games so I don’t really know.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know either.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could be throwing it harder and worrying less about spotting it
Many pitchers cruise at a speed below their maximum, generally for control reasons.
I'm dumb, she's a lesbian. I thought I had found the one.
We were good as married in my mind, but married in my mind's no good.
Pink triangle on her sleeve let me know the truth.
by thepainguy on Aug 17, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the success he's having
(SSS alert) can we really say he’s still not dialing it back a bit? I doubt that he’s throwing max effort every pitch, even with the increase in velocity.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, life is kinda an ironic kick in the nuts that way.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just glad that Derosa is actually playing
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhat...
I’ll really be regretting it if they sign him long term. That just seems like a bad idea, especially considering his possible Type A status.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
by guayzimi on Aug 17, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had buyer's remorse the day after the trade, the day after that, and then I found out about Destroyer...
I think that I’ll have eternal buyer’s remorse. Despite DeRosa having graduated summa cum laude from the Crash Davis Institute of Post-Game Interviews, I’m still not wild about this deal. At least Perez can strike enough people out to make up for his control problems. K-Mac cannot. Motte has been Dunc’d. Now, we are attempting to trade for righty relief in the form of a Proven Veteran. I don’t think that I’ll ever like The Chris Perez and Jess Todd Trade. That is, unless Mark DeRosa does something incredibly clutch between now and November…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't
Freese was healthy back in April and looked like a shell of his 2008 self even at AAA, Greene hasn’t proven that he can be a solid starting 3B candidate, and his head could return the the land of the lost at any time, which would leave us with Thurston manning third base, and I think we can all agree that the team has been better in an inverse amount to Go Go Joe’s playing time.
DeRosa does two things — he gives us a solid RH bat and average defense at 3B, and he keeps TLR from going all lineup crazy at the 3B position by playing replacement level players there all the time. He’s solid against lefties, has shown pretty good power since coming over, and gives Tony many double switch options late in games due to his versatility.
Sure, we could use Perez or Todd (probably both) right now, but Motte was throwing as well as both of those guys when we traded them, and McClellan has been better in August this year than he was in August last year. Also, I think that Hawksworth might be on the Adam Wainwright Wagon Train circa 2006. He’s been lights out since being placed in the bullpen, and he was instrumental in that win yesterday: Getting the call with men on 1st and 2nd with nobody out, then getting a tailor made double play followed by a strikeout to end the inning and keep the Cardinals in it. Not necessarily a high leverage situation, but if he gives up a couple of hits (or even one), the Cards WPA plummets and Colby has no chance to win it in the ninth.
If we’re having buyer’s remorse, we should be having it on Khalil Greene, considering that Gregerson would be in our pen right now, and he’s been as good as Perez has for most of the season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Freese's Health
Freese was healthy back in April…
I don’t know that he was. He was optioned to Memphis and then had a second surgery on his injured Achilles.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He hit all through spring training
so it must have been on the bus from Memphis to St. Louis where he got hurt then. Either that, or he’s Nick Stavinoha standing at 3B: Rakes AAA pitching but can’t hit is weight in the big leagues. There are plenty of guys like this (Andy Marte comes to mind), so it’s nothing to be upset about, but to suggest buyers remorse on the DeRosa deal when the replacement third baseman are Khalil, Freese, and Thurston is a bit too much for me.
Sure, we could use another right handed reliever right now, but if we had Perez in the bullpen and were starting Joe Thurston at 3B, well, wouldn’t we be pining for a third baseman in that situation?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marginal gain.
The bullpen is bad, but our lineup speaks for itself. RH relief is not only fungible, it’s highly unpredictable. Chris Perez was already supposed to be our closer. He failed. All of a sudden, 13 innings in Cle and he’s “The Closer that Could have Been…”
There’s a reason we’ve stopped talking about the Joe Thurston Award.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's a knee jerk reaction
because Perez has pitched well in Cleveland and DeRosa’s numbers aren’t Holliday-esque in the BOB. I think when talking about Perez as a solution to our bullpen woes one can make way too many assumptions about the use of Chris Perez in the Cardinal bullpen and then infer that he would “solve all of our problems”.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa's numbers
I’d settle for them being DeRosa-esque, but, even then, I’d lament the trade that sent out Perez and Todd.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it has less to do w/ perez's performance
and more to do with the performance of our own relievers. i agree with danup — there’s nobody on the right side of the pen you can really trust, except for franklin (who stinks, i should probably add).
the team is actively looking for help from the right side of the pen — and john smoltz and justin speier are the two leading candidates. i’d rather have chris perez over either of them, even at the cost of having to replace derosa with freese / glaus / k greene.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's no guarantee that either of them could pitch out of our pen right now.
YP and DD were obviously not seeing eye-to-eye, and Chris’s peripherals were crashing across the board. It’s nice to see that he’s probably going to stick in the CLE pen, but there’s no guarantee that this is anything but a blip caused by hitters lack of familiarity with him or some momentary quirk where he has his mechanics under control temporarily, soon to lose that control once again.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said above though
I’d rather have a serviceable third baseman who plays every day than a relief pitcher who “might” be a solid RHRP out of our pen. It’s not like Chris Perez is really all that much better than, say, Blake Hawksworth has been over the last three weeks, and if Perez was still here, Hawksworth probably never gets the chance to pitch out of the bullpen.
Sure, if Glaus comes back, you could lament this trade, but I find it hard to say that we “need” Chris Perez more than we need a guy who is keeping the multitude of suck that is Khalil, Thurston, Barden, etc. on the bench. Sure, Freese might be the guy, but then he might not be, just like Motte could start dialing it up to 100 mph again or KMac might find the strike zone on a consistent basis.
Considering that Derosa is probably no worse than a type B and he’s helping us win games, I find it hard to have buyer’s remorse when looking at that trade.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Solid 3Bman
Thurston: .229/.326/.338/.664
DeRosa: .236./.292/.482/.773
DeRosa’s homers and general XBH ability probably make him more threatening as our 3Bman, but, in terms of production, his being “serviceable” is up for debate. Would I rather have DeRosa at third than Thursty moving forward? Of course. I feel that Thurston should be sent to Memphis (and should have been sent to Memphis long ago). Nonetheless, DeRosa’s impact offensively has been far less than what anybody would have expected.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the problem, in my opinion, was that DeRosa seemed misrepresented
I think he made the team better. I don’t think he’s a “legit middle of the order hitter” or whatever. He’s not as good a hitter as the Bernies of the world were saying for a while. He’s pretty good all-around though. His true hitting talent seems to be in the “not quite .800 OPS” range, and we’re getting a peculiar version of it where he doesn’t get on base much but had a crazy homerun spurt for a while to make up for it.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
I don’t have his BABIP as a Cardinal at my fingertips right now, but I’d put him at about an .825 OPS guy, which is very valuable. He was unquestionably an upgrade. He’s just not playing like an upgrade. This was the risk of trading for him—that he wouldn’t play well.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, VEP just posted on his BABIP
But isn’t his career OPS something like .780? I guess you could argue that his playing time is weird and he’s better than that as a full-time player. Anyway, he’s a very good player but it’s not like he was going to come in and slug .600 or something. I felt like, at the time people were clamoring for the trade, his hitting was being oversold, which is unfair to him because it created unrealistic expectations.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His career OPS is that.
But, I don’t think his career numbers reflect his True Talent. His old man strength has helped his power each of the last two seasons (21 HR in ‘08 and 21 so far in ’09). His walk rates also appear to have gotten better. It’s fair to disagree with me, because the last two seasons could be a fluke.
I don’t think that he was ever going to slug .600, or anywhere near that. And you may recall my taking Bernie to task for his blog on the impacting nature of DeRosa’s bat. I think he is a very useful no. 2 or no. 5/6 batter (not a cleanup hitter, as TLR batted him in his first game). He was, on paper, an undeniable upgrade at third and for the lineup, though. He’s more of a Reggie Sanders/Edgar Renteria than an MV3 type (to use ‘04 analogies), that’s for sure.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hm.
See, I actually agree with you mostly. I was just trying to comment on what I felt was an outside-of-VEB perception.
I was assuming we could expect an OPS around .800 or maybe just below, but I thought he’d be doing better in the on-base/wOBA department and was surprised by his homers. Basically I was expecting his power to drop just a bit from the last couple of years, resulting in an OPS around .800. He isn’t getting any younger, after all. Maybe his OPS was higher that I thought it was? I might have been forgetting the actual numbers.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I guess I was also forgetting about OMP (yeah, you know me)
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Derosa's BABIP is .250, and his wOBA is .326, which is roughly league average
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't realize his BABIP was so low
Good to know. Hopefully he will get luckier from now on.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If his BABIP goes up,
I think his OPS will, too, especially because some of those hits will be of the XBH variety.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he can keep up the power and get on base more then I will be very happy
I guess I should have expected him to be unlucky. There’s no reason he should be hitting around .230.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe the Freese story goes like this
He knew the 3b spot was open, so he hid his leg injury from management to so he could try to win the starter’s gig. When it became evident that he just couldn’t do it, he came out and told about the car accident and the subsequent injury.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 17, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hasn't DeRose....
…already won a couple of games for us with his bat? ‘Nuf said. If we were an Indian he’d be Chief Knockahommah…
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Aug 17, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, should be if HE were still an Indian. Darn hooves....
:=8/
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Aug 17, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kinda.
I don’t think Perez was permanently broken or anything, and losing Todd too was just painful. It’s possible as has been mentioned by others here that the Prez just wasn’t going to be at his best in a TLR/Duncan team. While azru indicates that Gameday doesn’t see an arm slot difference, couldn’t he have been intentionally toning down the speed to (try to) get more control? That’s kind of a Duncan Classic, isn’t it?
Anyway, DeRosa is a weird player to me. I find him difficult to evaluate. We didn’t know at the time that we would get Matt Holliday (and that trade is quite a conversation on its own) but now that we have Lego my Egghead, DeRosa is pretty much our starting 3B. I don’t see him playing much 2B (he has played there before, right?) with all our MI. He might spell a little LF. So his versatility isn’t going to come into play much this year, I don’t think. His defense, depending on whom you ask, is either good enough or not very good. If we resign him that makes me nervous because of the opportunity costs.
For this team right now, he seems pretty much like what I would hope Allen Craig could be.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that ignores the fact that our 3B situation would still duck if we hadn't made the trade
Because it’s not like Craig would have been called up after the All-Star break or something. “Buyer’s remorse” might not be the best term for how I feel, but I don’t like the move as much as I used to.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is how I see it:
It’s all pure speculation. We don’t know that Perez would have pitched for us like he has for Cleveland. We had to upgrade our situation at 3B/LF/2B ie. Dero. I wish that we hadn’t let Todd go but we did, and that is that. We can’t change it back, but it is working for now. He was the appetizer after all.
Two months ago, if you had asked how we would do in the playoffs, I would have said that if we actually get there, then we’ll get smoked. We were NOT a good team, now we are. Did we give up too much to get there? Maybe. Maybe Wallace gets hurt or Todd throws his arm out, and Perez never
comes back to his potential. Then where are we? Right back to where we were. I think the FO did what it had to get us the best chance to win. And that grates me to say sometimes.
I realize my opinion doesn’t mean a helluvalot, but there it is.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hindsight is 20/20 and all
I am not saying I wish I could go back in time and un-do the deal. You make good points. Obviously there are tons of hypothetical situations we could ruminate on and that would eventually make us fans go crazy. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had just held on to Gregerson and put him in the bullpen?
But, I really think it’s not as good a trade as it appeared to me at first. The fact that DeRo is not missing the entire second half because of his wrist is pretty nice, and I really really like him after all is said and done.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't really singling anything that you said out
and I honestly agree with you. Sorry if it seemed that way. You just happened to say something along how I was thinking and decided to reply. I oversimplify what I actually think sometimes because I don’t know how to put it. And there are alot of posters that know more than I do.
Yes Gregerson would be a nice thing to have in the pen. Khalil would have been a great addition had it worked out and at the time nothing suggested he would have the problems he did. Where do you stop though? I don’t think anybody saw Boog turning into what he has. It would be great to have a crystal ball, then no bad moves would be made. Gregerson was a ? at the time, wasn’t he? Lotta upside but not tested in MLB . I can’t remember if he got a call up last year or not. I guess the best thing is to not lose your mind over wouldcoulda-shoulda.
I still think a lot of Motte’s problems and Perez’s was DD. If he would just leave them alone then they would be fine. I think he’s one of those guys that if you gave him a car that went 300 mph then he would have to figure out why it won’t turn on a dime.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
I like the 300 mph metaphor.
I get ya.
The payroll/contract situation is going to be very interesting this off-season.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry for going of on a tangent
with that last bit. Just thought I would throw ti out there whilst on the proverbial soapbox.
I really am glad that I don’t have to deal with the payroll for them. Considering that Dewitt really puts them in a box on that. I really don’t think it would matter even if the economy weren’t in the tank. It’s not as bad as when the Busch family still owned them though. After Auggie died, it got bad. A big part of why they weren’t very good in the early 90’s. The one that took over, Busch IV I think, came out and said that the main reason they sold the team was that they weren’t going to get into the bidding wars that it going to take to get big name talent.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No worries
I’m very thankful we’re past that part of Cardinals history.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good thoughts - would the team be as strong with Wallace, Perez and Todd. . . ?
Kennedy’s retention factors in as well. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder whether the Indians pushed for Perez or Motte
I thought I remember something about the Cards preferring to keep Motte.
by OCCardsFan on Aug 17, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No buyer's remorse here....
First, I don’t know that our 3b depth has magically reappeared. Glaus is still a question mark, Freese is still recovering and is no sure thing to have success at the big league level anyway, and K. Greene (obviously) cannot be counted on at all. So, even though the 3b situation apart from Derosa has “improved” since the trade, there’s still no answer there except Derosa right now.
Also, as others have said, the Holliday and Lugo deals did not exist at that time, so Derosa’s ability to play 2B/LF were more valuable at the time of the the trade. This may still be valuable if injuries hit.
Last, Hawksworth increasing success in middle relief roles replaces Perez to some extent (sure, we could have had both but there are lots of “ifs” to that – it assumes Perez could have had the same success with the Cards, could have reduced his walks, that Hawkswoirth would have been in a position to succeed if Perez were still here, etc.).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 17, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes.
On balance, if they want to win with offense, then we’re winning with offense. We would most certainly lose early with bad defense. If the starting pitchers go deep, we have enough bodies to throw into the 7th and 8th to get us to Mr. Sucktastic.
It’s not pretty, it will be prone to laying a giant (Fabergé) egg if they all go on a slump, but if that is how the Cards want to win it this year, we’re all in, baby. We’re all in.
In conclusion: GAWWWWW.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes and no......
Yes because we have needs now of those right arms.
No because the trade at the time took the pressure off of Ludwick to just relax and hit. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but I think since getting Derosa, Ludwick has been hitting like he was last year.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 17, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are Ludwick's numbers post Derosa and Holliday. I don't have the numbers, but superficially I don't see much difference.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick is also a streakwick
We just haven’t noticed because there’s all that rehab in the middle of his season.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
here is what I found
Ludwick on June 27th .225/.299/.419/.718 in 56 games I think…. 11 HR and 38 RBI’s
Derosa in Cards lineup on June 28th
Ludwick since June 28th .321/.368/.532/.900 in 43 games, 7 HR and 36 RBI’s
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Aug 17, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hm.
So there’s at least a case to be made for the post hoc part.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fallacy!
Heh, but seriously, I do think some pressure’s been taken off Ludwick. I don’t think that’s the reason he’s hitting better. I think Albert’s been hitting worse since the two acquisitions…
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by il rosso on Aug 17, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my theory
Albert needs to stop watching SportsCenter. His family needs to stop watching SportsCenter. The team needs to turn off SportsCenter whenever he enters the room.
When AP starts looking up his AP stat, the AP falls off.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Like Trading for a Silver Slugger...
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Aug 17, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good show and thanks for the research . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arbitration for DeRosa
Larry, do you think we should offer him Arbitration? And if we do and get the draft picks, will that change your view at all? It seems like that would numb the sting (at least in the long run) of the loss of Todd and Perez.
I am of the opinion that you have to offer him arb. If he accepts you have pretty good production from 3b on a one year deal. If he declines then you get the picks.
by OCCardsFan on Aug 17, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It all depends on the wrist....
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OC Cards, i do think they should offer him arby
getting back picks would be great, but i’m not really talking about perez’s future value at this point. i’m talking about his present value. i’m pointing to what seems an ironic state of affairs to me -- due to the arrival of holliday, and the restored health of some of our non-thurston/barden 3b options, derosa is a bit of a luxury at this point. and the commodity we traded away to acquire that luxury -- RHRP -- is now the weakest part of our team.
i’m not criticizing the FO, or trying to assign blame; this is one of those hindsight 20-20 situations. but with the benefit of hindsight, if i could right now undo that trade - bring back perez / todd, send derosa away, and play freese / glaus / greene at 3b the rest of the way - i’d do it without hesitation. i think it would make our team better.
by lboros on Aug 17, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they will absolutely offer him arbitration
unless his wrist surgery goes bad, which is highly unlikely.
by dcfcblues on Aug 17, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gotta offer him arbitration
because there’s absolutely no reason to sign him for two years.
by DanUpBaby on Aug 17, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much of Perez' recent renaissance has been getting away from Dave Duncan?
/stirring the pot
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 17, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd venture to say...
yes.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone knows that Dave Duncan is the destroyer of young arms and psyches
by dcfcblues on Aug 17, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't ruin the Sauce
:(
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's the price you pay for resurrected old pitchers with no future
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think there is hardly any evidence of that
Just win
by The Duke on Aug 17, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd just like to chime in quickly:
I would rather, right now, have Perez (at his current level of performance) and Todd than Derosa. However, I don’t know if that would have been possible with LaDunc.
Also, the chain of conversation that this post started is the reason I joined VEB and why I love it. Great job guys. I feel like I get smarter in your presence.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by il rosso on Aug 17, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lohse
I’m not sure if it has been mentioned here; but lohse never had to come back from the disablied list in his career. Carpenter has done it so many times he makes it look easy. But being thrown out of your routine and having to get back into it isn’t something that should be taken lightly.
by Evilfrog on Aug 17, 2009 8:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
this is exactly what I think is going on with him
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
me three
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been encouraged by his last two starts
Yesterday I thought he was noney. He gave up the bomb to Gonzalez on a bad pitch, but A.D.A.M gave up an opposite field jack on a very good pitch, so meh. Everything else was, for the most part, bad luck. His location was good (for the most part), and his velocity was decent.
I think come Sept he’ll be fine.
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Aug 17, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or you know, this is the real Lohse rearing his ugly sucktastic head
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. That game yesterday was awesome.
I’m still excited.
With similar schedule strength left, the Cards are in a great position to take the division. Even if (when) this hot streak subsides, the Cubs are going to have to light the world on fire to catch us. If we play slightly sub .500 ball the rest of the way (21-22 over the last 43), the Cubs will need to go 28-19 over their remaining games to match us. Nothing is in the bag, but that’s a tall order – and I really don’t see how this team plays worse than .500 the rest of the way.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 9:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I brought this up last Tuesday
The Cards went 5-1 last week against weak competition, and put some needed distance between themselves and the rest of the pack in the central.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would also like to chime in that yesterday rocked.
Despite two rain delays and a 6 hour effing game. Despite 3 balls caught/deflected by Padres pitchers. Despite a pitcher who had a hell of a balk pickoff move.
That game was awesome.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at the game for the first 7 innings
then decided I had to get moving or I wouldn’t get home until after 2 AM with a 6 AM work start time today. I did get to listen to Shannon’s call of the Colby homer though, which was fantastic, only wish I would have been there in person. Oh well, at least I’m not too sleep deprived to talk about it today!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad it turned into a victory
If not for Yadi and Colby’s heroics we would have been pretty frustrated. Lohse failing to make contact on the suicide squeeze, APu getting thrown out at 2nd, APu not coming through with the bases loaded.
by OCCardsFan on Aug 17, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
I’d forgotten about that squeeze fail. That was terrible.
Walkoff HR… Walkoff HR… Walkoff HR… Walkoff HR…
Happy thoughts!
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was roasting at Safeco watching the Yankees suck. Loved it, but missed the Cards.
When not whiffing on a bunt, how did Lohse look on the mound?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Opinions seem to vary
I thought he looked good through the first three innings or so. He showed excellent command routinely targeting the outside of the plate where Yadi was calling for the pitch. His breaking pitches were moving admirably.
There were a several unfortunate hits (read: unlucky) and I think he got tired. Once that happened, his command went to hell and he started hanging pitches. If a couple of the early hits had turned into outs then I think it would have looked like a very different end result.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lohse failing to make contact on the suicide squeeze,
Seriously, what the hell was that all about? That pitcher had fairly nasty stuff but NO clue where it was going, so why squeeze bunt, w/ a pitcher up no less, when there is a good chance he may throw one 8 inches off the plate?
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I, too, thought putting the squeeze on was a bad play there
but once it’s on, you better be diving your ass out there to at least get wood on the ball. In high school, we were taught that it was better to step on the plate trying to get the bunt down than to miss it entirely, because at least stepping on the plate creates a dead ball situation even though you’re out.
Lohse did a piss-poor job of trying to bunt that baseball and ended up getting his teammate hung out to dry.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 17, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't get to see him balk live, but when the WWL points out you balk,
you really have to fucking balk
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
he REALLY balked. You can’t lean towards home plate and then throw to first — once to break the 45 degree plane towards home you HAVE to go home. His other move was crossing his lead leg behind his back leg and then throwing to first. This is also a balk, as once you cross the lead leg over the other you’re committed toward the plate.
I was sitting the upper deck, but at a perfect angle from first base to the pitcher’s mound at the game on Sunday and in my mind, as a high school umpire (and we only have 2 man crews), about 2/3 of his moves to first were balks, and the one that picked off Boog in the first inning was DEFINITELY a balk. How you can miss these things as a first base umpire is beyond me, because you’re at the perfect angle to make the call.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Aug 18, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys, it's my birthday today, and I'm going to the Cards-Dodgers game in LA!!
Anything cool you guys suggest I should do?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would highly recommend watching an Albert GS
That’s pretty cool. Or maybe a Carp CG. Either way, really.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
I’ll try to make that happen :D
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happy b-day.
I suggest you throw beer and syringes onto the field. At least it’s LA so you’re unlikely to get beat up for wearing a Pujols jersey.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Aug 17, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got married this weekend.
She’s off the market.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Aug 17, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still depressed
:(
The guy who really needs to come back to earth is Julio Lugo. He flat-out sucks, or at least he did until he sold his soul at the foot of the Gateway Arch. by Not Bruce Froemming BCB
by RiverRat on Aug 17, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
didn't she date Brad Penny for awhile?
If that’s not proof that being a professional athlete can land you attractive women, regardless of your looks, I don’t know what is. He’s one unfortunate looking bastard.
by dcfcblues on Aug 17, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol @ unfortunate looking
but yeah, men are attracted to looks; women are attracted to status (real or perceived)
Good thing for stupid aloof games we can create higher status.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not anymore. her hubby is a dog
6ly. if he wasn’t a rich dude in the movie biz, i doubt they’d ever hook up.
she’s been married before, so i’m betting this one won’t last either. so you still have a chance riverrat.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOOOOOOOOHOOOOO
now what did I do with her number….oh well back to stalking it is.
/not really a stalker.
The guy who really needs to come back to earth is Julio Lugo. He flat-out sucks, or at least he did until he sold his soul at the foot of the Gateway Arch. by Not Bruce Froemming BCB
by RiverRat on Aug 17, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yer Killin' Me....
:=8/
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Aug 17, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good. i could go for a 12oz rib-eye
med-well, loaded baked potato. K.thx.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
12oz? rookie
get a 20oz or go home
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by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wear sunscreen and drink a lot of water.
The sun at chavez ravine is brutal.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Aug 17, 2009 11:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Game time is 7:10 pdt
Should be okay re: the sun at Chavez. Now traffic… ick. I’m jealous though. Don’t think I can make it up, b/c we have a three week old baby at home. Maybe SD this weekend though.
by OCCardsFan on Aug 17, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i got cooked at a day game there. miserable. you're probably right for an evening game.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Aug 17, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i will be at the game on sat @ Petco
9 rows behind the card dugout
by FunkeeC on Aug 17, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice
I really like Petco. We were at the game two years ago that ended with Yadi pickoff of Giles. That was fun.
by OCCardsFan on Aug 17, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya given the choice of chavez
or petco, i’ll choose petco every time. imma head down, hit up the gaslamp for a bit then walk to the game. great downtown plus cool park to check out a game. plus i dont have to deal w/ rush hour traffic getting from orange county to downtown LA
by FunkeeC on Aug 17, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happy b-day...
Here’s to another W.
by goodymobb on Aug 17, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some great Mexican places if you just go up Sunset.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happy B'day Viva,
Hope ya have a great time. Then again anytime you get to see the Cards is a good day.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happy birthday, vep!
Here’s to another Redbird win! Colby salvaged a birthday win for me yesterday.
by cardsgirl95 on Aug 17, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happy Birthday!
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Aug 17, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
happy bday
did you have cake or brownies?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no reason to be sorry, cake is allllllright
i like cake
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 18, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happy birthday VEP,
and cardsgirl (little late)!
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by il rosso on Aug 17, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be there too.
Section 107 LG.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Aug 17, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eat at least one
Dodger Dog…and enjoy a beer to wash it down.
"Fortune favors the bold!" - Virgil
by player2bnamedl8r on Aug 17, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
meh. dodger dog = ordinary hot dog
i wish i’d tried the fish tacos, personally.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Aug 17, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
What’s the big deal with Dodger Dogs? I have much better dogs at Wrigley and Busch. Not worth they hype.
by OCCardsFan on Aug 17, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of my worst ballpark visions. Went to the pissoir at Chavez Ravine and the guy next to me was simultaneously re-hydrating the stadium and munching a Dodger Dog. Not pretty
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drink Franklins?
Hit on a model?
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GET REJECTED
Like a boss
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Aug 17, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Swallow sadness...
LIKE A BOSS
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cut my dick off...
LIKE A BOSS
what
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Aug 17, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
happy happy Viva
i’ve never been to the west side, but if i found myself there on an early october day, i’d probably go grab a hot dog at Pinks before i went to the game, then after the game i’d hit In ‘N Out Burger. then i’d go sit on the beach for a while & ponder my existence on this rock & wonder what does it all mean. then i’d go to that restaurant in beverly hills where they serve some awesome prime rib & eat till i blew up.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shelby Miller Update from Keith Law
ANOTHER UPDATE FROM KEITH LAW (11:02 p.m. ET): Brownwood HS right-hander Shelby Miller, selected in the first round by the Cardinals, is in St. Louis now and will have a physical tomorrow. If everything checks out, he’ll sign a deal tomorrow for something comfortably over slot, in the top-ten-money range. This would be a huge coup for St. Louis, as they don’t have anyone quite like Miller, who already sits 92-96 with good sink and a potentially plus curveball, in their system.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Aug 17, 2009 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not worried
He’s going to sign. Miller is just playing the game that all the other high upside 1st rounders play. We’ll wake up tomorrow and see that he signed half an hour before the deadline.
by JWO on Aug 17, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It should happen before
the end of the game. Seeing as it doesn’t start until like 3am or something like that.
The guy who really needs to come back to earth is Julio Lugo. He flat-out sucks, or at least he did until he sold his soul at the foot of the Gateway Arch. by Not Bruce Froemming BCB
by RiverRat on Aug 17, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did someone throw back an Adrian Gonzalez homerun yesterday?
I mean, I know it happened, but I just find that so dumb that it’s hard to really believe. Mike Shannon was in the booth I believe, and was not pleased by the behavior, as it was more becoming of Cubs fans than Cardinals fans.
I would love to have an Adrian Gonzalez homerun ball.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah...initially i thought STL didn't throw back any HR ball
I think it does happen but not a significant amount of time, like say 5%, maybe less. I don’t think I’ve seen 1 out of 20 thrown back.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's happening more and more
and more fans are chanting/cheering for it. The douchebag ratio in the stands seems to be gettting worse.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Aug 17, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe the post needs to start an anti-douchbag campaign.
List of approved people to be booed at: Any Cub, Manny, Any Red Sox
Do Not Throw Balls back: we are not the cubs. we win world series.
Do Not Throw Shit on the field: we are not the phillies.
Do Not Wear Affliction: this is just a general life rule.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I regretted that as soon as I wrote it
I moved down from 3xx to 2xx seats this season and I’ve never seen so many adults act like assholes/clueless twits/jerks as this year. Maybe it’s always been that way in this part of the stadium.
I’m considering moving back up to 3xx next year. I can’t see the game as well, but it was more fun to attend.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Aug 17, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also....
Stop with the frickin wave already.
The guy who really needs to come back to earth is Julio Lugo. He flat-out sucks, or at least he did until he sold his soul at the foot of the Gateway Arch. by Not Bruce Froemming BCB
by RiverRat on Aug 17, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, yes, 1000x YES
If we, the fans, want to involve ourselves in the game more, we should cheer more. The wave is so amateurish I don’t even know where to begin on my dislike of it.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a billion times yes
i hate the wave almost as much as i hate two overexposed MI’s
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a lot of hate.
The guy who really needs to come back to earth is Julio Lugo. He flat-out sucks, or at least he did until he sold his soul at the foot of the Gateway Arch. by Not Bruce Froemming BCB
by RiverRat on Aug 17, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here are the maths
yes+yes+(1000*yes)+(1,000,000,000*yes)=hate
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leave the laser pointers at home (or save them for Michael Vick) to point the way for his guide dogs in Philadelphia.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we should get a t-shirt made
“We are not the Cubs. We do not throw balls back.
We are not the Phillies. We do not laser the opposing batters.
We are not the Yankees. We did not sell our houses for these seats.”
Maybe “St. Louis Cardinals fans” emblazoned across the top.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are not the Red Sox. Thank GOB.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we could just put "We are not the Red Sox." as one line by itself.
Hahaha.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Overall I agree...
…but there is a possible exception
Do Not Throw Shit on the field: we are not the phillies.
Seat Cushion Nights…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
Good point.
Maybe we need to add “unless in celebration after the game is over, and not to actually hit people.”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And only if you're throwing something really soft
I guess the semi-sharp nature of the excess material surrounding the average seat cushion could conceivably slit someone’s eye if the correct angles apply. Other than that, I feel a seat cushion is pretty safe…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this will not fit on a t-shirt
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where there's a will, there's a way
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
depends on who's wearing said t shirt
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW- Did anyone point out the seat cusions at the ASG?
I know they were just praying for a NL win so the fans could throw ’em.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Aug 17, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
stupid heath bell
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
um...that was fun and pretty
;-)
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we please stop with the whole
BFIB thing. Our fans are just like any other fanbase, and to expect 40,000+ people to always behave up to your standards is futile.
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
by stlhulsey on Aug 17, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the BFIB thing is stupid
I don’t mean to try to make the case that we’re the “best” or something. But it is strange to me that St. Louis fans are more and more copying a Chicago Cubs tradition. The “BFIB” thing is and always has been silly, I totally agree. I still think we’re good fans overall, but this particular trend is disturbing.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This still
seems like an isolated incident to me. Until it becomes a trend I wouldn’t worry to much about it.
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
by stlhulsey on Aug 17, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is that I'm worried it is becoming a trend. It's at least the second time I've witnessed it happening this year.
I don’t expect the fans to be angels or even behave up to my personal standards. I do expect them to know that throwing the ball back is dirty Cubs tradition, and simply for tribal “us and not them” reasons, I would hope that it would never, ever happen. Sad.
However, Colby’s awesomeness prevents me from being emotionally upset about it.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear ya
I didn’t mean for that to come of the way it did. I just don’t get too upset over it since it’s beyond my control.
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
by stlhulsey on Aug 17, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I care too much about our image
I totally respect where you’re coming from. But every time I see somebody throw back a homerun ball I just wish I could be sitting next to them and say “hey, if you’re just going to get rid of it, why don’t you let me have a free souvenir instead?”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd just call them a dbag and tell them the cubs fans
are always accepting applications.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel the same way at a hockey game.
I can’t believe that Blues fans picked up the stupid Chicago tradition of squalling like idiots through the end of the National Anthem. Apparently that whole city is full of classless sports fans. I don’t understand why anybody here would want to emulate that stupidity.
by etp_stl on Aug 17, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This actually started happening back in 05,
at least that was the first game I witnessed it at. I was sad that it started. It began with the Cubs and I ,being from So Illinois, pretty much hate all things Chicago.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I'm from So Illinois too, and if it weren't for Chicago, then we wouldn't have...
umm, wouldn’t have. Well, I guess we. Nope. Huh. I guess if it weren’t for Chicago, the world would be a better place.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 17, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said!
Where are you from? If you don’t mind my asking.
It just grates my nerves that they treat us like the unwanted stepchildren of the state.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Aug 17, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, it happened last year too.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you like some apple pie?
It’s warm. And there’s ice cream, too.
by sdrone on Aug 17, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that sounds good
actually.
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
by stlhulsey on Aug 17, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll start with apple
And then after he’s been here a while we’ll begin gradually introducing the weird St. Louis-specific stuff, like gooey butter cake.
I had some yesterday and Ohhhhh man was it good.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm, interesting
Ever seen a recipe for that?
by sdrone on Aug 17, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff
I suck at links.
"I learned a long time ago if you keep checking your stats all year, you're going to end up in the toilet." - Chris Carpenter, 2009.
by indakind on Aug 17, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure there are recipes somewhere.
I think the wikipedia article has a link to a recipe.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes. in fact i need some gooey butter cake right now.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gooey butter ROCKS!
When we used to visit my grandparents in St. Louis we would bring back like 10 gooey butter cakes from the Lake Forest bakery. I can’t believe it closed.
youneverknow
by floodOfLove on Aug 17, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I was talking to someone about this at the game on Saturday
if you have the chance to catch the baseball, you keep it! you are proving nothing by throwing it back out on the field.
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give it to a kid if you don't want it.
Turn an opposing HR into a lifelong Cardinal fan
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, sort of...
you are proving nothing by throwing it back out on the field.
You are proving that you’re a dummy, and possibly Tool Academy-material.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they have a school for that?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Aug 17, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
It is a VH1 reality show. My daughter thought it was funny. I didn’t watch it. My daughter is 13, so please don’t hold the fact that she likes VH1 and MTV against her…I already do!
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 17, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is more douchebag than hipster, right?
1 part Douchebag, 3 part Hipster!
by nomar34 on Aug 17, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when i was wearing my home made VEB shirt with a shirt I bought from good will
I felt I was some cowboy boots and tight black jeans away from being a hipster
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 17, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
I got nothing wrong with cowboy boots, personally. They’re surprisingly comfortable and fun to walk in.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when i go to Mexico in Oct
I want to pick up a pair
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 17, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had no idea there was a different...
I thought hipster was a sub culture of douchebag.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is so, so stupid.
And it doesn’t matter to me that it is a Wrigley Field tradition (although, that’s not surprising). If you are lucky enough to catch a HR ball, then why on earth would you throw it back onto the field? I’d put it on my shelf at home, no matter who hit it. What’s more, someone could get hurt. I know that it isn’t likely, but it is still a possibility. If you don’t want the HR ball, give it to a kid. That child would treasure it forever.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I completely agree
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sidenote:
I still hate espn and the mainstream sabr indifference towards STL. On my way home I was listening to ESPN radio and they were giving they’re typical playoff rundowns per division. The guy sounded like a chick but turned out to be Joe Sheehan. The get to the cardinals and the interviewer specifically asked about the cardinals stability. I said to the radio “bring on the hate”. Even worse, Sheehan went on a 2 minute tirade about the cubs and a 3 lined sentence about the cards.
The Cards could win 4 out of the next 5 ws and still get no respect :-)
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
eh who cares....
just win, hoist the flag, and that’s that.
Please take this comment in the spirit it was intended.
by guayzimi on Aug 17, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say i liked or disliked him
I just said he literally sounded like a chick and I thought it was until the guy said his name after the interview. A dude that sounds like a lady isn’t a deal breaker for me in the like department.
I was also pointing out he was asked directly about the cardinals and used it as an excuse to bring up the cubs. Weak minded-bandwagon-bullshit.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and all i'm saying is that Joe Sheehan is really good at what he does
by dcfcblues on Aug 17, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah that's why I was completely shocked he pulled a WWL
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Aug 17, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true
Maybe because he’s becoming more and more of a mainstream baseball guy, he’s converting to Coastal Bias/Chicago
by dcfcblues on Aug 17, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It feels like 2004 again!!!
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Aug 17, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Minus the insufferable loss of Ronald Reagan
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This year let's win one for the Gipper

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well done
You really know your audience!
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks! Alternate photo with pretty lady:

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like I have a new favorite movie..
“The Winning Team”

"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to pat myself on the back (and you too, I guess, but I don't know you that well so it might be kinda weird)
for using the subject line so people can collapse these huge images if they want.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think its kind of a moot point..
…in practice we were perfect to be sure. I’m sure Spants is appreciative. Still, despite the variety of posters on VEB, who is going to want to minimize a heart-melting pic of Doris with Dutch in a Cardinal uniform?
Unless maybe Adam Dunn is lurking.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd for Adam Dunn reference.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by il rosso on Aug 17, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's the guy with Doris Day? Looks like the type who would give guns to people in Nicaragua or something.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so that's why you picked the che shirt
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, he's talking about some random dude out of the phone book
Reagan is someone else entirely (I think he was some actor)
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Aug 17, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was joking
my humor has been broken for a while
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy crap, look at Ronnie
I wonder how many fellow actors he outed as communist sympathizers wearing that jersey.
by cloistermaximus on Aug 17, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite, but...
there is that kinda confidence about checking the box score the next day. It’s fun.
by sdrone on Aug 17, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harold Ramis = new favorite Colby name
New nickname = Egon? Don’t cross the streams?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 17, 2009 12:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
tla russa called rasmus' home run:
“Kind of magical.”*
He went on to say, “also, now that I think of it, that dick rankeel guy is not so good. Hm.”**
*true quote per goold.
- made-up quote
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Aug 17, 2009 12:21 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I know we like to rag on TLR a lot around here
But seeing him give Colby a hug was pretty cool.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colby > the GOB
Of course TLR was moved.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When was this hug?
I missed it because the game wasn’t on in my location.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was when they were all making their way back to the dugout.
It’s in the video on this page, around the 0:46 mark.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i swear I saw TLR whisper
Elephant Shoe
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 17, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That does kind of give one goosebumps.
Hopefully this means more Rasmus.
As an aside, seeing Busch that empty makes me feel like I’m watching a post-apocalyptic zombie movie. (No surprise that in this dystopian world, baseball is still played in St. Louis.)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Aug 17, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was less post-apocalyptic zombie
And more hours of rain delay
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 17, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
holy mother of ass that call was pathetic
6ly, why do the Cards hate their fans? get some real announcers already. shit
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 17, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"One of the great closers in baseball, Heath Bell"
/self-inflicted gunshot wound to face
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 17, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
JD
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dang.
There was supposed to be a line there.
==
JD
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Aug 17, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you trying to say I crossed the line?
I do that from time to time :P
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Aug 17, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
some lines were made to be crossed
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Aug 18, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can't wait until we move pass
“colb y isn’t starting because tony hates him and loves dick..”
There really hasn’t been any evidence of this. Tony has put Rasmus in situations to succeed. And he has come through on a lot of those times. Sure there are a few times when you would like to see Tony “trust” Rasmus a little more. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t like him.
by Evilfrog on Aug 17, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Then, hopefully, we can start on dispensing with the martyr’s wail about Al hating Colby and tearing him down.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Aug 17, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Al does hate Cody.
The guy who really needs to come back to earth is Julio Lugo. He flat-out sucks, or at least he did until he sold his soul at the foot of the Gateway Arch. by Not Bruce Froemming BCB
by RiverRat on Aug 17, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His grit factor is too low.
He’s too athletic, too tall, and too naturally gifted. He will never earn the grit ratings necessary for Al to like him.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Aug 17, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
....any sentence that ends with "loves dick" gives me pause.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Aug 17, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good to see Tony expanding his affecton beyond resuce pooches. . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Aug 17, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OT but still sports-related
Usain Bolt set a new world record for the 100 meter dash the other day, at 9.58 seconds. Tyson Gay ran it at 9.71 for a personal best, making him only the second-fastest person ever (Bolt set the previous record of 9.69 at the Olympics when he wasn’t even trying the whole time, for comparison).
So I have a 6 question for VEB: Is it OK to say that Usain Bolt is ridiculous?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Aug 17, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying you think Bolt would beat AP in a 100m dash?
Maybe. But not more than 51 times out of 100.
I think we should stick with silly or absurd.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Aug 17, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think a better question would be
Is Albert Pujols the Usain Bolt of baseball or is Usain Bolt the Albert Pujols of track and field?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!

by 

