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Adam Ottavino scouting report

the memphis redbirds are in colorado springs for the first time since 2007, so i drove down to the game on Sunday night to catch the opener. to my great disappointment, former VEB prospect fave trey hearne won’t be pitching out here; he threw a beauty on saturday night in salt lake city and won’t pitch again until friday in memphis. but i did get to see another worthy pitcher, 2006 1st-rounder adam ottavino, in the series opener sunday night. the redbirds won 7-6, and ottavino picked up the win, his 5th in 6 decisions after opening the season 0-9. herewith my impressions:

first things first: is ottavino still a prospect? you might think not; he rarely gets mentioned anymore within the HPGF, with hopes for a homegrown starting pitcher now pinned on garcia, boggs, lance lynn, and even pj walters. if the ghost of chris lambert has possessed any pitcher in the cardinal system, it’s not todd wellemeyer but ottavino, another 1st-round college arm gone bad. after ranking among the organization’s top 5 prospects on the preseason lists for 2007 and 2008, otto fell to about 20th on most lists this spring on account of a jarring transition to the high minors last year — a lambertesque 3-7 record, 5.23 ERA at double A.

but ottavino finished strong last year, posting a (roughly) 2.5 to 1 k/bb ratio over his last 90+ innings, with a FIP in the 4.30 range. and he still has superior stuff — better than any of the pitchers who passed him on the prospect-watch lists. for those reasons, he was promoted to triple A out of spring training this year in the hopes he’d bounce back. he hasn’t, much — after saturday's start, his 22d of the year, ottavino’s line reads 5-10 with a 4.66 ERA and one very ugly peripheral, a walk rate of nearly 6 men per 9 innings. that figure ruins some otherwise decent-looking stats that include a healthy K rate (7.8 per 9 IP), low HR rate (0.8 per 9), and good groundball ratio (43 percent and rising). a little discreet pruning makes ottavino’s line look slightly better; after a stupendously bad first month in triple A (0-3, 7.94 in 4 april starts), otto has gone 5-7, 4.08, over his last 18 starts (97 innings). unfortunately, he still can’t hit the strike zone — even excluding april, ottavino’s bb/9 stands at 5.9.

many’s the hard young thrower who was undone by lack of control, but there are those who get it figured out in time to have a career. ottavino can still be one of those. he’s only 23 years old, and his ability is big-league caliber — as i witnessed in person on sunday night.

ottavino reminds me of wainwright on the mound -- tall and thin and loose of limb. he’s got a smooth, languid delivery with a low kick and medium stride; his knee remains well below the waist throughout, and his elbow stays well below the shoulder. he’s balanced and generally upright; it’s an extremely simple, clean motion. to my eye (and i'm far from an expert in these matters), it seems that ottavino relies overmuch on his arm to generate power -- ie, maybe he's underutilizing his legs. here’s a triptych that illustrates ottavino’s delivery:

ottavino is a fastball-slider pitcher, with a changeup (otto calls it a split-change) for use against lefties. he uses the slider against hitters from both sides of the plate. the fastball ranges from 90 to 94; the pitches in the lower part of that range are probably 2-seamers. the 4-seamer explodes; hitters were putting very late swings on it all day. even matt murton, an above-average major-league hitter, could do no more with the pitch than to foul it off the other way. ottavino’s slider comes in at 79-81 with good movement; the change travels at about 83 mph.

he breezed through the first two innings while throwing about 90 percent fastballs, yielding only a couple of two-out singles. but in the third, protecting a 2-0 lead, he walked the opposing pitcher leading off. he was pissed at himself; you could see it from the stands. ottavino got the next guy on a force, but then gave up a base knock on a one-hop smash that got through descalso. the next two hitters, matt miller and murton, rank 3d and 4th respectively in the PCL batting race and have EQAs in the .250 range -- average big-league hitters, roughly. ottavino attacked miller with sliders, got ahead 0-2, wasted a fastball up, and then struck him out swinging on a slider down and away. beautiful job. but then he walked murton on four pitches, loading the bases for another former big-leaguer, left-handed slugger dan ortmeier. ottavino went right after him, got ahead 0-2 and then froze him with a changeup . . . . but didn’t get the call. he threw a fastball that ortmeier fouled off, then left the next pitch up; ortmeier whacked it into right for a two-run single to tie the game.

another walked ensued, re-loading the bases and bringing blaise ilsely out for a conference, before ottavino finally ended the frame on a ground out to short. he used up a lot of effort in that inning; 8 men batted, and ottavino threw well over 30 pitches (all but a handful of them out of the stretch). by the end of the frame he’d slowed down considerably, taking a lot of time between pitches.

he got through the 4th on 7 pitches, after the redbirds retook the lead in the top of the inning. he took a 4-2 lead to the mound in the 5th and gave up a double leading off the inning to jonathan herrera, with miller and murton coming up. he struck out miller again, fooling him again w/ sliders; he air-mailed a pitch to the backstop during murton’s at-bat, sending the runner to 3d, but broke off a 2-2 slider to strike murton out swinging and freeze the runner. ortmeier stepped in, and otto got ahead with a change and then heaved another fastball way above the batter’s head. pagnozzi got a mitt on it (barely) and kept it from going to the screen, but the ball trickled away behind his back, just a few feet from home plate on the first-base side. he couldn’t find it, and herrera scored a gift run; ortmeier popped out to center moments later, and ottavino’s outing was over.

the final line: 5 innings, 5 hits, 3 runs (all earned), 3 walks, 4 strikeouts. he induced 6 groundball outs vs 5 flyballs.

i talked to ottavino after he went back to the clubhouse -- the clubhouse guy was kind enough to send back a note. i didn’t have a recorder w/ me, nor a laptop, and thus had to take notes by hand. i didn’t get anything close to a transcription, but i did get enough stuff down to paraphrase.

first i asked ottavino how he felt about the outing, and he said it was frustrating. he was still kicking himself over that walk to the pitcher back in the 3d. he’d pitched very carefully after that and felt he did a lot of things right. he tried to get a double play on the next hitter and succeeded in inducing a groundball, but it was too slowly hit for a dp. he threw three terrific sliders to miller and struck him out; the walk to the next hitter, murton, was an accommodation ottavino decided to make after falling behind 2-0. i couldn’t groove one for him, otto said, he’s to good a hitter; i didn’t want to give up a 3-run homer. he executed his game plan against ortmeier with the sacks jammed and thought he’d struck the guy out on the 0-2 changeup; ottavino claimed that the umpire later admitted that he’d missed the call. the rbi single 2 pitches later came off another changeup. then he lost focus and walked the next guy while still thinking about that missed call on 0-2 . . . . he’s lucky the game didn’t blow up on him right there. ilsely’s trip to the mound was well timed.

ottavino was also angry at himself about the 2 wild pitches. i struck out their 2 best hitters with a guy in scoring position, he told me, and i let him score anyway. he didn’t say it quite this way, but basically he knew that if he could have eliminated the walk to the pitcher and the 2 wild pitches, he’d still be out there working on a shutout instead of watching the 7th inning on the clubhouse tv, and the big-league brass would be getting a report about ottavino’s gem in colorado springs (one of the hitter-friendliest parks in the minors). instead, the results were a mixed bag, and the kid had mostly himself to blame. and he knew it.

he told me he’s been searching all year for command of his fastball; that’s his best pitch, but also the one that gets him into the most trouble. a few starts ago he made an adjustment, moving toward the first-base side of the rubber, in the hopes that this might help; it hasn’t so far. the walks have been coming in bunches, he said. i'll have good location and then i’ll lose it; it comes and goes.

when i asked where he thinks he has made the most progress in his game this year, he said without hesitation that his slider is vastly improved. that was his primary goal in the off-season -- to tighten up the break and gain better command. i feel really confident throwing it now, he says; i’ll throw it from behind in the count, i'll throw it on 3-2. i know i can throw it for a strike. he also bulked up over the off-season, at the behest of the development team (who thought he was too thin last year and thus prone to fatigue). he said he has a ton of confidence in all his pitches, which is a big change over last season, when he was tentative and searching for himself. last year, he said, he hurt his shoulder in the batting cage during the spring and then tried to pitch through it; after about 30 innings (and 20 walks) he went onto the dl, and although he pitched much better after he came back ottavino never felt comfortable. he was toying with his delivery -- he eliminated a sharp stop at the bottom of his motion, where he’d freeze his arm briefly before starting it forward for the pitch -- and as a result he was always thinking about his mechanics while on the mound. now i’m not thinking about it, he says. my motion is much more natural. it’s not the motion i had in college, but it must be natural because i don’t have to think about it. and that means i can think about other things while i'm out there.

i asked how the recent spate of trades had gone down in the memphis clubhouse, and he said it was kind of a shock. ottavino was good friends with chris perez; the two were drafted the same year and came up through the system more or less together. we thought we’d pitch together in st louis for years, he told me. mort and jess were friends of mine too; we kept hearing that jess might be the second player in the trade, and it was hard knowing he might be gone any day. at the same time, ottavino admitted (at my prompting) that the deals have created greater opportunity for the pitchers who are left. i asked ottavino if he felt, given the sudden exodus of relief pitchers from the system, that he might eventually be converted to a reliever himself. that fastball-slider combination might get you some mileage in a big-league bullpen, i suggested. he gave the obligatory responses -- "i'll do whatever they want me to do," and "i've always been a starting pitcher and that’s how i view myself" -- while adding that he, and all the other memphis players, are dying to be a part of the pennant race in st louis. blake hawksworth’s success in the cardinal bullpen so far has not escaped notice down in memphis; if that’s the ticket to the big leagues, ottavino would gladly take it. but he knows he’s not gonna get called up until he gets command of his fastball, and that’s what is foremost in his mind -- not a callup.

i came away encouraged by what i'd seen, and heard, out of adam ottavino. he has two big-league pitches and an intelligent approach to the game; he seems able to identify his weaknesses and work hard on shoring them up. plenty of guys have fashioned careers out of less. he essentially has one problem left to solve -- stop walking people -- before he becomes a viable option in st louis. unfortunately, it’s not a small problem. there have been glimmers of improvement -- after walking 6.3 men per 9 in the first three months of the year, he has walked 5.0 men per 9 since july 1 . . . . . like i said, "glimmers" of improvement. he’s still got to do better. i'd like to see him cut his walk rate to the vicinity of 3.0 bb/9 by this time next year.

a final thought about my trip to colorado springs: the memphis hitter who most caught my eye was mark hamilton, the first baseman. why is this guy no longer considered a prospect by anyone? at the time the cards selected him (number 76 overall in 2006), draft experts were gushing; kevin goldstein wrote, "The Cardinals got one of the steals in the 2006 draft with Hamilton in the supplemental second round." as late as july 2007, goldstein had hamilton ranked as the 9th-best first-base prospect in the minors, on a list that also included daric barton and joey votto. "Hamilton’s power ranked with that of anyone else in last year’s draft," goldstein wrote then.

after his promotion to double A in mid-2007, hamilton struggled for a year and a half -- only 14 homers and a .383 slugging average in roughly 500 plate appearances, although he retained a decent batting eye (about a 10 percent walk rate). this year hamilton has returned to mashing. he’s slugging .542 in 227 at-bats split between double A and triple A and seeing the ball very well, with a walk rate above 13 percent. this guy is as big and powerful as chris duncan but has a much shorter, more direct swing. he just turned 25 years old a couple weeks ago; probably wouldn’t hit for average in the big leagues, but would draw walks and hit for power.

if it were up to me, i'd find a way to call hamilton up to the cardinals before august 31 and see what he can do. the cardinals need a good left-handed bat on the bench; hamilton could be it. the problem is that he only plays one position, first base -- in other words, hamilton would be strictly a pinch-hitter, because there’s nowhere to put him in the field. but with khalil greene, julio lugo, mark derosa, and skip schumaker all on the roster, the cards have plenty of flexibility. i still wouldn’t dump joe thurston (unlike most of you); if you dump superjoe and hamilton doesn’t pan out, then your next best option for an lh bench bat is john jay. i do like jay, but i'm not convinced he offers more than thurston does in the short run. so i'd drop the pitching staff to 11 pitchers for a day or two to get hamilton onto the roster and qualified for the postseason; after sept 1 there’s plenty of room for him.

allen craig had 4 hits in the game, and i like his swing too; he looks like a big-league hitter to me. too bad he doesn’t play a decent 3b, he could make everyone stop lamenting the trade of brett wallace.

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great stuff

as always. thanks lboros.

Albert Pujols is ridiculous.

by stlhulsey on Aug 11, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Great read.

Ott was fun to watch in the WBC. Here’s hoping he figures out his command issues.

by paposse on Aug 11, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

there's nothing like a first person review. i love this rundown of ottavino.

i still think he’s got time and some room to play.

really, he should go buy the hawk a beverage of his choice in the off-season, since the hawk has demonstrated (is demonstrating?) that pitchers who may have a long road to the bigs really CAN iron everything out and become a big leaguer.

i think ottavino can do it. like you said, he’s got several quality pitches. he’s shown flashes of being a good pitcher – the WBC primarily. he’s gone from having a suck first half to a tolerable second half.

he needs protection from rule V this winter, so it makes sense to me to put him in the September mix and let him get some innings in relief. i wonder if Dave could take some time to work with him on his fastball control – his strong 2-seam and his dedication to the “pitch to contact” philosophy should pique Dave’s interest.

my hope is that he comes back and builds on some of his recent success next spring in the memphis rotation. my guess is the 2010 rotation looks like otto/hearne/lynn/walters/(whoever among boggs/garcia/hawk is not with the big club). he should get almost a full season of starting at memphis and really refine his control, maybe catching the odd chance to join the big league bullpen for a week or so.

thanks for giving hamilton some good press — i think he should get at least a sept. callup for the odd ph opportunity or even some 1b time in blowouts to let albert get some rest.

lboros – sept. callups: who do you think belongs who is not currently on the 40-man roster? my submissions would be otto, craig, hamilton, jay. that would require probably mather to hit the 60-day DL. depending on how they’re doing, either glaus or khalil (in the event of a relapse) could take up residence there, too. any other names you would want to see in september?

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Aug 11, 2009 1:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

thanks, glad you enjoyed the piece

re the question of september callups:

i would like to see them add a 3d catcher -- but that would mean adding pagnozzi to the 40-man, which is probably not optimal long-term. if they did that, could they pass him through waivers and send him back to memphis after the season?

i think they need another lefty in the pen, but it looks like that might turn out to be jaime garcia, who is already on the 40-man.

they definitely need another LH bat for the stretch, and jay and hamilton are their best candidates (they also have shorey and descalso as options). personally i’d take hamilton.

i think craig deserves a callup on pure merit -- he’s a big league hitter, and the stats show it - but i don’t think it’ll happen for procedural reasons. they have a bunch of RH bats who are already on the 40-man and have big-league exposure this year (including glaus, freese, stavinoha, and ty greene), and even though craig looks like a better hitter than all of those guys (with the exception of a healthy glaus), i don’t think they’ll venture off the 40 for help.

re ottavino, i don’t think he’ll get the nod -- too many walks. but all the options who are already on the 40 are unappealing -- kinney, scherer, and pj walters. if they venture off the 40 for help, it seems likely that either they’ll trade for jon rauch or danys baez or someone like that, or else they’ll bring up eduardo sanchez from springfield. strauss and miklasz are hearing sanchez’s name around the ballpark (from mozeliak, probably), and since he’s conditioned for relief and having an outstanding season i would guess they’ll go that route.

by lboros on Aug 11, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree on both Craig and Hamilton.

Craig doesn’t belong in Triple A; he belongs on the big league bench. Period. And Hamilton, while probably trade bait to an AL team in the long run, could certainly add a certain something the Cards are missing right now. Personally, though, I doubt Hamilton gets the call; after all, why would we need a big left-handed bat when we’ve got Rick Ankiel?

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 11, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

anyone intending to use sarcasm for the next 5 hours may find it is down for repairs after flagrant overuse.
why would we need a big left-handed bat when we’ve got Rick Ankiel?

my impression was that the club wanted pagnozzi to back up molina next year. i should have thought of pagnozzi as an add to the 40-man. they might even leave him on the 40-man for next year. i had also forgotten sanchez; definitely a name to keep in mind. i agree he might do better than ottavino in relief.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Aug 11, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Crap.

Sorry about that, everybody. Guess we’re going to have to be sincere for a while. Yikes.

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 11, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good to hear from you, sir

The all-seeing eye is a good thing to see!

Now on Mr. Ottavino. I did get to see Ottavino pitch for Forza Azzurri in the WBC and noticed a few things.
 

  1. He’s gotten much burlier since he was drafted. In his draft vid he looks like a bean pole, but now he’s gotten much stronger-looking. That can only help.
  2. He’s got some truly nasty stuff.

As much fun as it can be to watch a control artist work, a guy with nasty pitches in his arsenal is never a bad guy to have. He’s got more ability than any of the other starters in the system, but his BB rates have been nothing short of totally unacceptable. I, for one, have my fingers crossed that Ottavino can iron that out, even just enough to pitch out of the Cardinals bullpen one day.

He seems like a good kid too…

VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 11, 2009 1:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i had forgotten

that he pitched in the WBC; i should have asked him about that experience. if i recall he pitched pretty well there . . . .

by lboros on Aug 11, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He did

…I believe he tossed 3 shutout innings against Venezuela w/ 3 K. He and Mark DiFelice of Milwaukee (Captain Cutter) both pitched in the WBC and both did well…but Italy’s bullpen apparently was awful and that lead to blow outs.

VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 11, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff, lb.

And always nice to see the father of VEB dropping by.

As for Ottavino, I’ve seen him a couple times, and I’ve come to the conclusion this is a guy who probably needs to be in the bullpen. As he said himself, his command comes and goes, and it seems to me to mostly be an issue of him trying to do fancy, pitchery things he just isn’t well suited for. I think it’s telling he tended to get in trouble once he had to start trying to strategize and work carefully to certain hitters.

I was really impressed earlier this season with Ottavino’s fastballs and his slider. The changeup, not so much, and I saw a couple curves in there as well I didn’t think were very encouraging. To me, you move this guy to the ’pen and simplify his repertoire. Throw the two fastballs, and use the two-seamer as a de facto changeup. Scrap the change and the curve, and just use the slider as an out pitch.

The thing is, Ottavino still has just a dynamite arm, and is, as you said lb, still quite young. There’s time for him to develop, but I think a different career path may ultimately be in his best interests. I really like his mechanics, too, as he never gets his elbow up into the danger zone, and should be durable, I think.

At the very least, I would certainly like to see Ottavino in the big league bullpen come September, give him a chance to get a taste of St. Louis and audition his stuff for the big league staff. Honestly, I’m a little doubtful he gets the callup, but I think it would be a good idea if he did.

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 11, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ottavino in the 'pen seems to me to be the most likely outcome.

And, I think it’s an intriguing proposition. It seems odd to me that the organization would give up on Jess Todd, Starter, so quickly and show such patience with Ottavino, but what do I know? I thought Craig should have been given a shot at third base months ago.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 11, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they say

jess had a high stress delivery that was not well suited in a starting rols

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Aug 12, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they said that about Tim Lincecum, too.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Aug 14, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's talk after Tim Lincecum has a few more injury free years

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Aug 14, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i've heard you and others

suggest that ottavino’s future might lie in the bullpen, and now i understand why. he’s got two terrific weapons but no obvious 3d pitch - i never saw the curveball, so maybe that has already been scrapped.

if he brought that changeup along he’d have a passable repertoire for a mid- to back-end starter, but there’s still the matter of command. maybe he’d harness that fastball more readily if (as you suggest) he ditches the change and just has two pitches to refine.

he could be a good relief pitcher -- he can strike people out, and he seems to know how to keep the ball in the yard.

by lboros on Aug 11, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, I think he really could.

The problem, of course, is you hesitate to give up on a guy who looks like he could still be a starter, simply because he’s so much more valuable in the rotation. Nonetheless, I think that’s probably the likely outcome.

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 11, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and as for his lower body mechanics

If you watch the scouting video from when he was drafted, you can see Ottavino used to be a bit more aggressive with his leg drive. I think he’s probably tried to tone down his delivery in an attempt to improve his control, which isn’t a particularly good idea, in my ever so humble opinion.

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 11, 2009 4:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

In the Maple Street Press Annual,

there was a piece on the new direction the organization was going in terms of their pitching mechanics philosophy. They were transitioning from the Duncan style to a more free-flowing style. Ottavino, in the photos above, seems to be practicing the Duncan style. Am I wrong?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 11, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope, that's about right.

He’s gone to more of that tall and fall style, trying to stay under control. I don’t like it, but maybe that’s what works for him. (Of course, the results suggest it isn’t working, but…)

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 11, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree BGH

that does like more of a “tall and fall” sort of approach. it doesn’t seem to have cost ottavino any velocity though; he was bringing it at 94 mph the other day, according to the stadium gun.

by lboros on Aug 11, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crap.

I guess you can’t directly link to the videos. Why the hell does MLB have such a shitty setup for their media stuff? Ugh. Here’s the link to the page; just click on the 350K link next to Ottavino. (He’s at the bottom) Such a pain in the ass.

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 11, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wowser

Great write-up. These personal scouting reports always add a little life to the players you’re only used to seeing in boxscores.

Don’t get me wrong, Future Redbirds does a great job with their DFRs, but my favorite segments of theirs are when one of the guys goes to the game, or Erik gets a personal interview with a player. This kind of stuff is golden.

And I’m always impressed by the use of a triptych. Medieval religious archetype depiction for the win.

Final note: is it wrong that I read all of lboros’s posts/comments in a “wizened old man” voice? Think Morgan Freeman. I guess that’s what being the moderator emeritus of VEB will bring you.

by arch support on Aug 11, 2009 4:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I first met Larry Borowsky in 1927,

and I thought that is the whitest blogger I’ve ever seen.

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 11, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i'm too white

to be morgan freeman. probably paul newman circa “nobody’s fool” is more like it. or dustin hoffman in “little big man”.

by lboros on Aug 11, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, man

adding that hyper-raspy voice to everything you write, rather than the neutral one I’ve been using, does add a new dimension of fantastic to your prose.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Aug 12, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you should use...

the voice of yoda. Just as wise and old, but considerably more entertaining….

by cdb on Aug 11, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would require

an intentional syntactic inversion on lboros’s part.

by arch support on Aug 11, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is true

but we have a moocow’s wordplay and various poetic forms bandied about with some regularity, someone needs to adopt this form of speak… do it myself I cannot….

by cdb on Aug 11, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Report of Ottavino this is!

Control of his fastball, he has not. There is no try…there is only strike and ball…

VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.

by redbirdnation8206 on Aug 11, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

"The Ottavino Triptych"

It even sounds like a trecento Italian altarpiece or something. There’d be scenes from the life of San Adamo di Ottavino, lots of gold leaf, probably a St. John the Baptist and St. Roberto di Gibson just chillin’ at the margins, etc. etc.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Aug 11, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"and here's st. stephen with the slider welts in his side . . . "

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Aug 11, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thank you, this was a great review of a guy many have given up on

it’s nice to hear that maybe there’s still some hope left. i really hope he can turn his career around.

and thank you for also including your thoughts about some other players as well. i had totally & completely forgotten about hamilton. now, color me intrigued. and considering your the godfather, i’ll let that little thing about you know who slide.

please don’t be a stranger, we miss you lb

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Aug 11, 2009 4:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great post lboros.

Stuff like this is why I continued to come to VEB for several years, and it’s always good to hear from the “godfather” of the site.

The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer

by ilrosso on Aug 11, 2009 5:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Too bad

Otto wasn’t tried in the pen earlier. He might have come up this year and made a difference in the big team’s decimated relief corps ala Todd Worrell. It’s nice to know he has the stuff and desire. Maybe a change in role is all he needs. Remember that Worrell never had great stats as a minor league starter either.

by easy on Aug 11, 2009 7:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

so, you're saying there's a chance?

you description of the “split-change” piques my interest…I’ve long thought(long being since i saw otto pitch last year at memphis) that he was a pitch and a healthy dose of strike zone command away from being a big league starter…if his change becomes a legit pitch against lefties, then all we need is command…and i really think he will eventually learn that

in the two games i saw him pitch last year, his slider was really good…if it has gotten better as he says, it must be one nasty breaking ball(and that is exciting)

"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister

by VolsnCards5 on Aug 11, 2009 7:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Personally,

I actually don’t think Ottavino really needs the changeup. If he were to transition into a relief role, he could essentially just ditch the changeup and curve, and use his two-seamer (which is a very good pitch), as a changeup. If he were to develop the change, I agree he could probably be a starter, but I also think the path of least resistance here leads to the bullpen.

I've made a huge tiny mistake.

by the red baron on Aug 12, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed re path of least resistance

but i’d give him another half-season to try to get it together as a starter. they can always convert him to relief later on.

VolsnCards5, re the changeup - that pitch doesn’t look like a big-league pitch to me, not yet. ottavino only threw it to a few hitters, but i didn’t see it really fool anybody - with the possible exception of the 0-2 pitch to ortmeier in the 3rd inning. it was a close pitch and ortmeier didn’t pull the trigger - either he was frozen by it, or he simply thought it was wide and decided to take it. he saw the changeup again a couple of pitches later and put a pretty good swing on it.

so your assessment probably still holds -- he’s still a pitch away from having a starter’s repertoire. or maybe a half-pitch away, because at least ottavino can throw the changeup for strikes reliably. that’s a start. and he says he is throwing it with full effort, which means it should look just like a fastball coming out of his hand. maybe he could fool around with the grip and add a little movement to the pitch . . . . .

by lboros on Aug 12, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff here

Just from what you’ve put forth here, it sounds like he’s got the stuff of a dominant right handed setup guy, since he can get both righties and lefties out, makes me think of Ryan Madson from the Phillies a little bit with the fastball/slider combo and good velocity. It seems like he struggles with walks when he tries to hard to follow a gameplan and ends up trying to be too fine, exemplified by his struggles with Murton, who has a good command of the strike zone and simply isn’t going to offer at stuff he can’t hit at the AAA level.

Interesting take on Hamilton — do you think he would make enough contact at the big league level to be a “three true outcomes” type of guy like Jack Cust? If so, he’s probably got some value to an AL team down the road, and I wouldn’t mind seeing him up just as a left handed bat off the bench. I do wonder if he’d get at-bats often enough in that role to get a feel for big league pitching, but it seems worth the risk, and if he hits a couple of bombs and can fill in for Albert in a couple of spot starts he might bump his trade value up enough to net us a good veteran player in the offseason if we wanted to deal him.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 11, 2009 10:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

jack cust is probably a pretty good comp

hamilton does look like a classic 3TO hitter, at least the way he’s going now.

by lboros on Aug 12, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome stuff here lb

F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday

by vivaelpujols on Aug 12, 2009 12:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, LB

really a good read.

I, too, liked Hamilton when drafted (and Ottavino, for that matter) and really like Allen Craig now. I’ve gotta think that, should the Cards not resign Holliday in the offseason, both of them ought to be given a shot in LF in the spring. Could they be worse than Duncan was?

by chuckb on Aug 12, 2009 12:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

LB as ever thanks for giving us the insights. VEB and its readers are, as ever, in your debt.

Good stuff for sure. . . .

An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.

HL Mencken

by akaitori on Aug 12, 2009 12:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

nice write-up lb

one of the admins needs to hit the “feature” button. Otto seems to really battle himself, we read a lot last year about how he’s done playing the mental game, but it seems like he’s still playing it.

KLaw called him a reliever on draft day, which is looking pretty prophetic. At this point I’d be happy with that outcome, sounds like his stuff could play well enough in a high leverage role.

godfather of futureredbirds.net

by erik on Aug 12, 2009 9:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

what is the feature button?

Does it sticky fanposts? If so Danup is unaware that you can do that

Stat Whore

by FlimtotheFlam on Aug 12, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he means

that this would get thrown up in the main thread, or “featured”, in a colored box, similar to the ones you see all the time on BTB if you read over there any.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Aug 12, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks erik

i think “battling himself” is a very good way of putting it, based on what i saw. he makes a mistake (walking the pitcher) and then has to use up a lot of energy fighting through the inning. i’d be willing to bet that the two wild pitches were at least partly the result of fatigue -- which in turn was the result of the 35 (or so) pitches he had to throw to get through the 3d.

having said that -- he did come within one pitch of overcoming the walk to the pitcher and escaping that 3d-inning jam unscathed. and he did limit the damage to 2 runs, as opposed to 4 or 5 runs and an early exit. he kept himself (and the team) in the game, never let c springs take the lead. so maybe he’s making some progress in the mental game. it wasn’t a great start, but it was far from a disaster. like i said in the writeup, it wouldn’t have taken much to make that start into a 7-inning, 0 run outing — just get the damn pitcher out leading off the 3d, and he’s probably unscored upon.

by lboros on Aug 12, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nicejjob Larry

Your posting quenched a thirst that i had over the weekend after reading this old LB article on futureredbirds about the then prospect Boog.
Your analysis was spot-on. Here’s to hoping that Ottavino also fulfills his promise soon – in bullpen role or otherwise.

by _pistol_ on Aug 12, 2009 12:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Capitalization?

Does FR require its use?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A first impression comment.

I have my answer:

I even agreed to use capital letters, since that’s the house style.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Aug 12, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow...

some great stuff there, and dead-on. I’d like to see side by side stills of Ryan now to see if he’s done anything to correct the head movement. It seems to me like his pre-windup stance is much the same as it was then.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Aug 12, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

moar like this

i don’t really have anything to contribute, but i wanted to post thanks for the work on this post. you’ve swayed me a bit in favor of ottavino

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Aug 13, 2009 1:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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