Cardinals and Injuries/Announcements
by tarakas on Jul 8, 2009 12:42 PM EDT
19 comments
Is it me, or do the Cardinals have serious credibility issues with their announcements concerning injuries?
When the Cardinals first announced DeRosa would miss a few games with a sore wrist, I told a friend that I was sure that inevitably "a few days" was going to be weeks or months, not days, because the Cardinals always seem to be wrong when they say something about injuries. And now DeRosa's "2-3 days" has morphed into a DL stint, just like when Kyle Loshe got hit by a pitch, he went from not having to miss any starts, to one start, to well over a month.
Over the last few years, whether it was comments about injuries and/or return times for Glaus, Loshe, and DeRosa this year, or Carpenter, Mulder, Edmonds, Duncan, Ankiel, and Tyler Johnson in previous years, what the Cardinals say about players' health often seems to be wildly optimistic and consistently inaccurate. The initial diagnose of a problem is often wrong, and even when correct, the projected recovery time is rarely accurate.
Is this endemic to the sport, a deliberate attempt to mislead, a symptom of the difficulties of the medical profession, or simply a sign that they are not getting good medical advice? Are they simply having bad luck?
Any thoughts?
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The way you really know a medical staff is bad,
is when they allow a player to play injured before they put him on the DL. While it’s true that they’ve made vague announcements and timetables have often been lengthened, the Cardinals are in the middle of the pack in players days spent on the DL. If DeRosa had been told to suck it up after his injury and he played for two more games and then needed season-ending surgery, that’s a bad medical staff.
If they told him to rest it, reevaluated and then changed their timetable, that’s nothing if not absolutely normal.
Think back to earlier this season.
May 21, 2009: Shoulder injury, day-to-day.
May 22, 2009: Missed 1 game (shoulder injury).
May 27, 2009: Right shoulder injury, day-to-day.
Jun 4, 2009: Missed 6 games (bereavement list and shoulder injury).
Jun 13, 2009: Right shoulder injury, day-to-day.
Jun 14, 2009: Strained right rotator cuff, 15-day DL (retroactive to June 13).
Jul 3, 2009: Transferred from the 15-day DL to the 60-day DL (strained right rotator cuff).
Now THAT is shitty injury management. A player is day-to-day for nearly a month, continues to play, and by the time he gets onto the disabled list he needs season-ending surgery. That’s they Royals dealing with Coco Crisp’s shoulder injury earlier this season. After at least TWO misdiagnoses, they FINALLY ordered an MRI which showed the structural damage. It took a second opinion from a non-team doctor to say he was done. Let’s keep your gripes about DeRosa’s bad luck in perspective.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 1:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When a player goes to Paletta
it most likely will mean that the player is done for the year. And it sure seems like when a player is on the 15 day DL, they are done for a while (Glaus this year) or the year (Carp, Mulder, others in past years). The Cards have an awful medical staff.
TLR: Please start Colby!
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 8, 2009 2:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Medecine is not an exact science
1) DeRosa’s wrist was too swollen to take an MRI initially. Thus the wait for the swelling to subside and the subsequent MRI revealing the torn tendon sheath. There was hope by all parties that it would be a few days. I see no misdiagnosis here. Here is the quote from Hummel’s article yesterday at stltoday.com:
A magnetic resonance imaging found the problem Monday. An exam last Wednesday proved inconclusive due to inflammation and swelling of the wrist, which De Rosa said "popped" during a June 30 at-bat against San Francisco Giants lefthander Randy Johnson. Team medical supervisor Dr. George Paletta examined DeRosa for the first time on Monday.
2) Kyle Lohse was hit by a pitch. How long does this normally sideline a player? A day or two at most. I don’t think there was any way to predict that this would become a strain and sideline him for the additional time.
3) Glaus. The player has as much blame in this as anyone. The Cards took the approach of waiting to see if the shoulder would heal with rest during the offseason. Apparently both the team and Glaus thought it was better until Glaus started ramping up his season preparation and they (all) determined that it needed to be cut on. Surgery is usually the last option. Then Glaus’ rehab stalled which is not predictable either. No one knows how an individual is going to respond to surgery and rehab.
4) Mulder. I am pretty sure the team was just trying to get something out of (Walt’s) substantial and ill-conceived investment. The team knew that 2007 was a transition year so they could afford to give him every opportunity and not waste young talent and $$$ for a replacement when the team was not going to win anyway.
5) Clement. Lottery ticket. For 1.5M this is a low cost gamble. Again I don’t think the team expected to really win in 2007. Throw it against the wall and see if it sticks.
6) Rolen. This is the only one I blame on the med staff. They tried a patch surgery and brought him back too soon. Thing is though that Rolen agreed to this course of action.’
7) Carp. Was there any way to ascertain ahead of time that the 2004 nerve problem would re-occur four years later? Carp is fragile. So are many pitchers. He is brilliant when healthy. Most pitchers are not. The team has a substantial investment in him and cannot afford to replace him and his salary with another high dollar ace. One, there aren’t many of them. Two, most are not available. Three, they cost a ton in $$$ and/or prospects. Four, there is no guarantee of health for the replacement.
8) Does the med staff get points for getting Albert back ahead of time when he gets hurt? Or is that all the player?
I think people see/read what they want and use this to grind their axe against the front office. Injuries and return timelines are not set in stone. Furthermore, diagnoses are not always black and white. Finally, when you have a budget you cannot just go out and replace injured players. All teams rely on their core of players to be healthy. No team has ready-made replacements of equal caliber just sitting around. If the replacements were that good they would be starting and making big $$$.
You people are crazy if you think that Paletta is not a highly skilled doctor. No team is going to entrust million dollar investments to some quack.
End rant.
by indakind on Jul 8, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
i think it should also be pointed out that generally
you need to test out a joint to see if someone needs a DL stint. lots of otherwise healthy pitchers, for instance, have tears in their labrums or rotator cuffs that cause them no problems. it’s only a tear/fray/injury that causes pain or limits range of motion that mandates a stay on the DL.
if you gave everybody on the pitching staff an MRI of their shoulders and elbows and DL’d everybody with an abnormality, you’d have to get joe thurston to start some games.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec’d
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 8, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tired
I am tired of the med staff being used as a way to further anti-front office agendas. This stuff is not black and white. I think the Cards are in a no win situation with regards to disclosing injury information. People want to know exactly how long a player is going to be out or exactly when he will be back and that is impossible.
Now it is certainly fun to joke about the med staff, talking about amputation and other nonsense. It is genuinely funny at times. But to me it is funny in the way that you shake your head and laugh at things that happen that you cannot control…i.e. it is better to laugh than cry.
by indakind on Jul 8, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree with you more, indakind....
My HS quarterback went to Paletta after a shoulder separation, and he was back starting for us about a month later. I am not exactly sure what his injury was, but I would call that a successful surgery either way. Later that school year (senior year), during baseball season, I was throwing a bullpen session and felt my shoulder pop.
I, referred by my friend, went to Paletta. My MRI ended up showing that I had a SLAP tear, or “Superior Labral tear from Anterior to Posterior”, and some fraying of the labrum. I finished out the season- mostly playing 1B to minimize stress on the arm, and still pitching a relief inning here and there. I waited to have the operation later that fall, so I could play legion ball since I had no real plans of playing in college.
OT, but cool story: While at one of my visits (a couple of days after the Cards lost to the D-Backs in the ‘01 LDS), I was in the waiting room, and none other than Albert F. Pujols walks in through the front door – not the back where all the other players walk in. heh, rookie. – , actually signs the sign-in sheet, and walks back to the exam rooms. there were some other Cardinals players there, who I unfortunately didn’t get to see. Paletta told me that Edmonds was in my room before I got called back, kinda cool. Looking back, I should have immediately went over and stolen that damn sign-in clipboard. I still and always will regret not doing this. I mean, WTF WAS I THINKING?
Anyways, to keep this as short as possible: I made a full recovery and rehabbed the entire 4 months and could pitch again at 100% with full range of motion without pain.
I hate when people call out Paletta when we obviously aren’t getting all of the information from the club, and certainly don’t know every single detail about every single player’s rehab. Setbacks are going to happen. There is no avoiding it. Every person reacts differently to surgeries and rehabs. Why, every time somebody experiences a setback, does it seem to some people that it is George Paletta’s fault?
"I've played a couple of hundred games of tic-tac-toe with my little daughter and she hasn't beaten me yet. I've always had to win. I've got to win." - Bob Gibson
by MUGATU on Jul 8, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A) People want a scapegoat.
B) I know someone who had HORRIBLE experiences with Dr. Paletta.
C) Shit happens.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 9, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Medicine is not an exact science
but we are learning all the time. Why, just fifty years ago, they thought a disease like your daughter’s was caused by demonic possession or witchcraft. But nowadays we know that Isabelle is suffering from an imbalance of bodily humors, perhaps caused by a toad or a small dwarf living in her stomach."
by Andyfantastic on Jul 8, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the credibility of the Cards' medical announcements is as partially viewed through an economic lens.
Simply, if fans feel the team is competitive and about to be reinforced shortly by outstanding players, the false optimism encourages attendance at games. Try these hypothetical chinwags:
Looks like the team is about to get (Mulder, Rolen, Edmonds, Carp, Waino, Derosa) back in a couple of days. We’re in the middle of the race now. Wait till he/they return.
Team says _ is through for the year. Want to see Thurstron, Barden, Yan and Bourbon play instead?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 9, 2009 6:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So a day after I post this
Bernie writes a column making the same basic observations.
I don’t know if I should feel vindicated or embarrassed.
by tarakas on Jul 9, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bernie
Bernie likes to pander to the lunatic fringe on the PD forums. Whether or not the club gives out the “correct” timelines on injury issues has nothing to do with Paletta’s compentency as a doctor. I think that many people confuse this issue.
by indakind on Jul 9, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Recall the anecdote about the person who upon leaving after a visit to a relative in the lunactic asylum
lost four nuts off the car wheel. The driver stopped the damaged car and was puzzled about what to do. Then an inmate emerged and removed one nut from each of the other wheels and put three on the fourth wheel. That’s quite clever the driver said. The inmate replied, “I may be crazy, but I ain’t stupid.”
Ol’ BM may like to rile up the rabble, but as rabble go, we are not entirely stupid. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 10, 2009 6:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never really argued
that Paletta was the problem.
I do think it is pretty poor that the Cardinals still seem to be understating the severity of DeRosa’s injury. Will Carroll makes it sound a lot worse than Moe does.
by tarakas on Jul 9, 2009 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think criticisms of Dr. Paletta are off base. My issue is with the front office that surely looks only at the most postivie diagnosis that Dr. Paletta (or other) offers.
Again, I suggest the reasoning is primarily economic and to a lesser degree a matter of saving face.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 10, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The initial diagnose of a problem is often wrong, and even when correct, the projected recovery time is rarely accurate."
your words. sounds like a Paletta call-out to me.
"I've played a couple of hundred games of tic-tac-toe with my little daughter and she hasn't beaten me yet. I've always had to win. I've got to win." - Bob Gibson
by MUGATU on Jul 10, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how short our memories are
- Pineiro’s highlight this year includes him pitching until he falls down because he wasn’t properly hydrated. On a hot day in St. Louis, why is this basic first aid not a priority?
- Jason. Isringhausen.
- How long did Chris Duncan play hurt, and in the doghouse too? How many times, dear GOB, has Albert gone out there and played hurt and then gone on the DL? How many days was it after Yadier’s concussion before he started again — yes, folks, that’s a brain injury to a cornerstone player.
- Matt Clement? Sure he was a gamble, but he could. not. pitch. No one came down to actually check this? When the first quotes I google from that time period read “The question isn’t if Clement will pitch — but how effective he will be.” That was the breaking point for me. Not that the assessment was off, but that it was so wildly off.
- How many times did Scott Rolen and I think others go to a completely different team’s doctor to get treatment and/or diagnoses?
- Why, why, why am I still watching games where the pitcher stays on the mound and it’s not LaRussa, it’s not the trainer, it’s not any of the coaches, it’s not the pitcher himself, no, it’s Yadier Molina who spots that something is terribly wrong? Is he the only one paying attention?
1) Someone pointed out that these things will not show up on the DL stats because the Cardinals do not always report the injuries when they happen. The data does need to be compiled so we’re not blowing hot air.
2) However… This is a very, very consistent pattern of behavior from the organization. I include the players in this. That’s the real point of contention. It’s not the players getting hurt; it’s the response time, the correct assessment, and then, perhaps secondarily, the communication with the fanbase about that assessment.
In other words, we are firmly out of small sample size territory. Hasn’t it been a couple of years already?
I am, for the record, personally undecided about the severity of this problem, but as pointed out we have trade deals on the line here, we have Albert’s elbow on the line here, and it’s shocking to me that we spend so many threads bitching about hidden/concealed/untreated injuries, then forget they ever happened.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 10, 2009 1:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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