Roamin' Halladay
by the red baron on Jul 8, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
548 comments
Morning, all you happenin' cats and hoppenin' kitties!
Friends, I have got the blues this morning. No idea why, really, just do. One of those days, I suppose. (Actually, to be accurate, one of those weeks so far.) Not enough to keep me from being giddy about the performance we saw last night from the nucleus of the Cardinal offense, as well as a second-in-a-row brilliant performance from A.D.A.M., but certainly enough to ensure this will likely be a rather subdued post. Sorry.
Outstanding win from the Cardinals last night; if you want my thoughts on the game itself, I've already put said thoughts to paper elsewhere.
The big news of the day, of course, is that Roy Halladay, Toronto Blue Jay and ace par excellence, is apparently now on the trading block.There's already been a bit of discussion of the topic in Taskmaster's fanpost,but I wanted to take a bit closer look at the logistics of trading for Roy Halladay, and just how feasible it really is.
To be honest, my first thought on a deal for Roy Halladay is, "No way that's going to happen." My second thought is then, "No way that's gonna happen." Around my third thought, though, I start to think of what it would be like to have Roy F. Halladay in a Cardinal uniform, and I start to reconsider a bit, largely because my capacity for rational thought begins to break down at that point.
There are two main components to any consideration of a deal like this: the trade package and the finances. We'll start with the package, shall we? (That's what she said.)
Any package the Cardinals - or any other team, for that matter - would have to give up for a pitcher of Halladay's stature would have to be quite substantial. You're likely looking at about a three or four for one, depending on the exact quality of the players involved. You would start, most likely, with Brett Wallace. He's the Cards' best prospect, and one of the more intriguing bats in the minor leagues. After that, you're probably looking at giving up a Daryl Jones, as well as a top arm. I would say a guy like Lance Lynn, or if you wanted to go relief, Francisco Samuel. (Assuming Samuel isn't already gone in the DeRosa deal, in which case it would likely be Jess Todd.) Finally, I know the Blue Jays are supposedly looking for middle infield talent, which isn't a particularly strong suit in the Cardinal system, as I'm sure we are all well aware. However, the Cards do have Pete Kozma, first round pick and Texas Leaguer at the tender age of 21. I know we like to pile on Pete a bit around here - I'll be the first to admit guilt here - due to the fact he isn't Rick Porcello, but Kozma is young for his league, holding his own, and still projects as a plus defender at a premium position. He's worth more than you think.
So that's the package, or something like it. Wallace, Jones, Samuel, and Kozma. Now, on to the finances.
This is where things start to get really dicey, and the reason I generally think this has no chance of happening. Not because I think the Cardinals are cheap or anything, but simply because I doubt there's enough wiggle room in the budget to pay what Halladay is currently making.
Halladay is making $14.25 million this year, and will make 15.75 in 2010. You have to ask, first off, if he's worth it, and the answer is a resounding yes. In fact, Halladay falls into that same category as Albert, of the superstar player who literally almost can't be paid what he's worth, as the market simply won't bear it. Even if you give Albert the $25-30 million a year he's worth on the market, that's still a remarkable bargain. Same with Halladay.
Now, the question of whether the Cardinals have the salary room is much more complicated. Right now, Halladay would cost the team the pro-rated chunk of that $14.25, which we'll just eyeball and call $7 million. Now, I have no idea if the Cards are in a position to add a $7 million salary, but honestly, I think they could. Opening Day payroll this year was a shade over $88 million, and ownership has been upfront that because of better than expected attendance, there is a fair amount of wiggle room. Mark DeRosa and his $3 million salary have been added, bringing payroll up to about $91 million. Adding Halladay and his $7 million would likely bring the total number up to right around the $100 million mark. (I'm not putting concrete figures on the total payroll, because there are a lot of smaller factors that can move the payroll.)
As for the $15.75 million Halladay is owed in 2010, that's a tough one. The thing is, the Cardinals will have the payroll room. After this season, there is a ton of money coming off the books. Troy Glaus' $11.25 million will be gone. Ditto Khalil Greene's $6.5 million. Those two alone are enough to offset the expense of Halladay's salary. In addition, if you add Halladay, you're certainly not resigning Joel Pineiro, so that's another $7.5 million coming off the books. Ankiel won't be back, so kick his $2.8 right out. All told, the Cardinals will have somewhere in the neighbourhood of $28 million of payroll space freed up. Against that, Roy Halladay and his ~16 mil is pretty easy to absorb. In fact, the Cardinals are probably in better shape to pick up Halladay financially than just about any other team in baseball. There are a few players due bumps, most notably Adam Wainwright and Kyle Lohse, who together will get a raise in the $4 million range. It's tough to say what sort of raise Ryan Ludwick is in for, but if he ends up with a solid season this year, you probably have to look at getting maybe a three year deal done with him, maybe paying him in the $5 million range.
The thing is, if the Cardinals were to pick up Roy Halladay, they would essentially be committing to one plan for this year and next. Adding that salary removes any real flexibility the Cards have now, requiring them to go with cheap replacements at every position. Thus, the roster you see now is likely what you would have next year as well, with maybe a few changes. With raises and Halladay, the Cardinals would be looking at a probable maximum of about $6-8 million to spend, so there would be no substantial upgrade to the outfield. You might get a lower-end free agent, but most likely you would be looking at Mather, or Jon Jay, or Tyler Henley, or the equivalent. (Of course, another option would be to simply shift Skip back to the outfield and install, say, Dan Descalso at second, but I somehow just don't see that happening.)
Third base would present an interesting dilemma. You could afford to resign Mark DeRosa and keep him as your everyday guy over there, but that would eat up almost all your payroll. David Freese is an option, of course, as would be Joe Mather if he's healthy.
The bullpen is likely set, and relatively affordable. Franklin is the only guy down there making any real money, and he's only getting bumped up by about half a mil next season, so that's not really a huge concern. If there's one area this organisation can fill from the minors, it's the bullpen. Even if Todd and Samuel are both gone by next season, Eduardo Sanchez is rapidly becoming a top prospect, as well as the lefty duo of Sam Freeman and Tyler Norrick, both at Double A.
Something you do have to consider, though, is Halladay would strictly be a rental for a year and a half. In an ideal world, of course, you would trade for him and then sign him to an extension, ensuring he would spend his mid-30s in Cardinal red, but that's simply not an option. Looking down the road a bit, for 2011, the Cards already have $33.5 million dedicated to three starting pitchers; add to that the contract they need to be handing Albert and you're looking somewhere in the range of $55 million for four players. There's just no way to add Roy Halladay to that number at ~$17-18 million a year and still maintain a team around them.
Of course, what this should teach us is the abject stupidity of no-trade clauses for all but the most core of players. The thing is, in 2011, Kyle Lohse will be making not quite $12 million. Now, if you could move him after 2010, suddenly you're only adding, say, $6 million to sign Halladay. That you can manage. Unfortunately, you can't move Kyle Lohse, because he has a full no trade clause. And remember, Kyle Lohse is a Scott Boras client who signed the day after the season ended. Free agency didn't start for another two months. To me, that says that Kyle Lohse likes it here, and isn't leaving. Period. I didn't like the money in the Lohse deal, but I could live with it. I preferred three years, but thought four was probably okay. The NTC, though, I railed and raged against, and shouted at anyone who would listen it was a bad idea. This is why.
Now, what exactly what acquiring Roy Halladay do for the Cardinals? Well, they immediately become the prohibitive favourite to win the division. Let's face it, there isn't another team in the NL, or maybe in baseball overall, that can compete with a rotation of Halladay/ Carpenter/ Wainwright/ Lohse/ Pineiro. Come playoff time, those first three especially could blast through any opponent in short order. The Cards pick up Halladay, they're the favourites to go to the World Series from the NL, I believe. I don't care how much Manny Ramirez means to the Dodgers, the Cardinals are a better team. You're replacing Todd Wellemeyer with Roy Halladay on a team that's already leading the division. That's just ridiculous.
In 2010, you can't afford to buy another starter, so you're forced to fill from the minors. That likely means either Jaime Garcia or Clay Mortensen becomes your fifth starter, and I'm okay with that. With the front four you have in that rotation, it doesn't fucking matter who your fifth guy is. Period.
The roster for 2010 likely looks something like this:
Starters
C- Yadier Molina
1B- Albert
2B- Skippy
SS- Brendan Ryan
3B- David Freese
LF- Chris Duncan
CF- Colby-Wan
RF- Ryan Ludwick
Bench
Tyler Greene
Joe Mather
Jon Jay
Backup Catcher (Let's face it, this could literally be anybody)
Rotation
Roy Halladay
Chris Carpenter
Adam Wainwright
Kyle Lohse
Jaime Garcia
Bullpen
Ryan Franklin
Jason Motte
Kyle McClellan
Eduardo Sanchez
Josh Kinney/ Blake Hawksworth
Denny's
Tyler Norrick/ random lefty
Frankly, I think that team could very well go to the WS as well, if even just a thing or two breaks well amongst the young guys.
And the thing is, this is really the sort of team the Cardinal farm system is built for right now. We've all heard the bitching about the lack of impact talent, but we also know perfectly well you could do a whole lot of filling in with the guys the Cards have available down below.
So that's the calculus. By trading for Roy Halladay, you would be giving up something in the neighbourhood of 24 cost-controlled years of players for a year and a half of Halladay. You couldn't afford to resign him, because you're already locked in to a bunch of expensive contracts in the rotation, none of which can be moved. (Actually, I think Wainwright could be moved, but that would easily be the least sensible move to make.) You would have to fill in any positions of need from the farm system rather than looking externally, because this move would eat up any and all financial flexibility you might have.
What would I do? Well, I mean, look at all the reasons I just laid out not to do it. It would be foolish.
So I would write a list with three names on it, Pujols, Wainwright, and Rasmus. I would send the list over to J.P. Ricciardi, and I would say, "Take four of anyone else you want. Fuck it."
We are talking about Roy Halladay, after all.
The Baron's playlist for 8th July, 2009
"Valentine's Day is Over"- Billy Bragg
"Tonight Was a Disaster"- Casiotone for the Painfully Alone
"No Children"- The Mountain Goats
"Floundering"- Berry
"Problem With Remembering"- Broken Records
Yes, they're all very, very sad. I'm okay with that.
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Colby Rasmus and Larry Walker
Sorry to go off-topic on you for a sec.
I was thinking last night, watching the game, that Colby Rasmus is reminding me of one former Cardinals player: Larry Walker. Both lefty, both known for good defense, both bat in the 2 spot in front of The Mang, and both have good power. I compared Larry Walker’s 2005 season with Colby’s season this year, and extrapolated Colby’s data over 100 games (the number Larry played that year). Obviously, Larry Walker had a much higher BB% and therefore OBP, but the numbers are strikingly similar.
Larry Walker:Colby Rasmus (per 100 games)
Season: 2005:2009
G: 100:100
AB: 315:329
PA: 367:357
H: 91:95
1B: 55:54
2B: 20:25
3B: 1:1
HR: 15:14
R: 66:54
RBI: 52:45
BB: 41:17
IBB: 3:0
SO: 64:61
GDP: 9:5
AVG: .289:.288
BB%: 11.50%:4.90%
K%: 20.30%:18.50%
OBP: .384:330
SLG: .502:.504
OPS: .886:.834
ISO: .213:.216
Speed: 4:3.60
BABIP: .322:.316
wOBA: .382:.359
I’m not sure that that was the best way to format this, but I think it allows for the easier comparisons between the two. Now, this is Larry Walker’s last season in the big leagues, and Colby’s first, and I don’t think that Colby’s career path is going to resemble anything like Larry’s. I don’t think Colby can approach Larry Walker’s 1997 peak year with the Rockies when he hit .366/.450/.710 with 33 SB and a wOBA of .394, but for these two years, both playing for the Cardinals, Colby reminds me just a little bit of Larry Walker.
by mysterui on Jul 8, 2009 11:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
More Colby ridiculousness...
last 7 games for Colby – only 5 starts:
.520/.538/.1.080/1.618 – 26 PA, 25 AB, 13 H, 9 R, 2 doubles, 4 homers, 6 RBI, 1 BB, 2 K, 1 GDP
raised his BA from .262 to .288, his OBP from .307 to .330, and his SLG from .440 to .504.
That’s a hell of a week!
by stlfan on Jul 8, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
glad
hes on my fantasy team
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jul 8, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Like Your Name!
GO NOLES!
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 21, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Casiotone for the Painfully Alone
is a solid band.
Old Panda Days is a great song.
by dcfcblues on Jul 8, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
rofl, no they're not
solid MG choice, though
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
meh
kinda boring and whiny, but to each his own
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'll give you that
but I still like them.
by dcfcblues on Jul 8, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that one song is ok
but not super great.
I’d say that each of his picks are sad, but strangely not the saddest from each of the artists he picked.
Mountain goats – going to georgia
billy bragg – saturday boy
casiotone – i love credence (also their best song)
by dugmartsch on Jul 8, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you guys
seem like the type to like neutral milk hotel. aeroplane is such a fantastic album
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace, Lynn, Jones & Kozma would be an insane amount of talent to give up. That seems like a vast overestimate of what teams are going to offer the Jays.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Correct
I would say Wallace + Kozma + PTBNL could get it done
by mysterui on Jul 8, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that is possible,
sign me up.
by Beware the Molinas on Jul 8, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how does it work if a team has multiple PTBNL?
from my understanding of PTBNL the team gives a list of players, but what if they have two lists with two different teams? can a player be on both lists?
by nrichar2 on Jul 8, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is just a contract issue
They would need to build in a contingency or priority into the second trade wherein the second trading partner (here the Blue Jays) could pick from one of several players. And if one of the players on the Blue Jays’ list was taken by the Indians there would likely be a pre-designated replacement on the list.
by OCCardsFan on Jul 8, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats crazy talk
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
then do it!
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the number of teams involved, or at least solidly interested,
I think the price is going to end up very, very high, higher than most of us would like to give up. We saw how much the price escalated with DeRosa, mostly because of the number of teams involved. Stick someone like the Yankees in there, and things are going to get out of hand very quickly.
You can't teach a hammer to love nails.
by the red baron on Jul 8, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but...
they are in the same division. The talent would have to be overwhelming. I dont think phil hughes as the center piece would get it done.
by hghallstar on Jul 8, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yankees are a non factor
Blue Jays will not trade him within the division. Our biggest competition would be the Phillies, Brewers, Mets and Dodgers
by dcfcblues on Jul 8, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also I didn't think the Yanks farm system was that solid...
Pretty sure we’re much deeper (and arguably have better talent at the highest levels) than do the Yanks. I agree with Az…this package sounds like an insane amount of talent to give up and for the reasons you suggested, I don’t see the final sale price being that high.
There is a story on Yahoo right now about how the price tag for Halladay will likely be much, much less than he’s worth.
by goodymobb on Jul 8, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not...
I was going to do a post on each of the farm systems, until I realized that’d have been hours of research to figure out all the top 10 prospects of the 7 “serious” teams in for Halladay at the time I started.
I did get through the Yankees system though. The only way they have a chance of putting forth a package that might be impressive is if they throw Joba in there as the center piece. They’ve got a few good young pitchers for prospects, the same ones we’ve been hearing about for about 3 years now in Joba, Hughes and Kennedy. For positional players, they’re really weak though. They’ve got one catcher who’s being overwhelmed in AA if I remember correctly (although to be fair, he’s 17) and a 3B that’s been injured all year. All their other “top” players according to Baseball America seem more like they’re from the ghosts of Cardinals Triple-A past, as in they’re all really old and not really prospects anymore. A couple of the guys listed as “best” at something by BA were 27-28 years old.
The Mets seemed to have far better pieces than the Yankees, but it seemed like they’d be gutting their system moreso than we would if they went after him.
But again, I’m going from memory, I was looking at a lot of prospects this morning before I realized it was more work than I was willing to put it, and I lost the word document I had a lot of the info in because my laptop crashed, so I might be mistaking a guy here or there.
by mtalken on Jul 8, 2009 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Philly is not gonna let Halladay slip by them if they can help it at all.
They get Halladay and they are going to be tough to beat.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
Once Hamels gets his mojo back…scary
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
by Taskmaster on Jul 8, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I don’t buy that 2 of the top 5 and 4 of the top 10 prospects in a relatively deep farm system is an accurate assessment. I don’t think you can point to any other trade (short of the Bedard fiasco) that has turned out that good for the selling team.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
teixeira trade
rangers got an absolute haul…salty hasn’t been what most thought he would be…they got a ton of good prospects
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a haul
I’d point out that 1) he’s a position player 2) The Braves also acquired Mahay andd 3) that package still isn’t as lofty as what is being proposed.
You’re still only looking at the Braves giving up 4 players (3 top 10 players) to acquire two veterans.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mulder to the Cardinals?
Manny to the Dodgers? Both Boston and Pittsburgh made out on that one.
by Evilfrog on Jul 8, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitt certainly did not make out on that one
by stl522 on Jul 8, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not yet
They their young starting 3b: Andy LaRoche; A starting outfielder in Brandon Moss and two young pitchers on the DL from the trade. But it’s a kind of deal they could make out on in a few years. Granted; Bay has been awesome for Boston so far. We’ll see.
by Evilfrog on Jul 8, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not according to every baseball writer
they could all be wrong…i’m serious, they could be
but i think its going to take a lot
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you read
this? I tend to agree that 4 of those guys is too much but 3 of them is probably right on. I really don’t want to trade Jones but I think we could stomach it. Similarly, I’d rather not give up Kozma b/c of the fact that he plays a premium position and we have such a dearth of players at SS in the minors. I think Lynn’s more fungible so I’d prefer Wallace, Lynn, and either Jones or Kozma. 4 of them strikes me as a bit high.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're the Cardinals
you have to do this in a heartbeat don’t you? Wallace may not stick at 3B as so many have pointed out. And I have to think stomaching Wallace, Jones/Kozma, and Lynn would be made pretty easy by the fact that Halladay makes the Cards the best team in the NL. What team can throw out a top 4 equal to Halladay, Carp, Pinata, and Wainwright?
by AWolfAtTheDoor on Jul 8, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read that
and that package looks like Wallace, Kozma and a Todd/Sanchez/Samuel/Reifer type (+ a lesser prospect or 2) to me. I don’t think that’s too high a price to acquire Halladay (and potentially 2 draft picks) given the state of the NL Central and Albert’s age. Again, I’m not nearly as high on Wallace and Kozma as others so it doesn’t bother me overly much.
This is why signings like Wagner Mateo and Shelby Miller are important.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be great.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AZ, i still think this package is a little light
compared to what cameron sketches out at Fangraphs. in both of the trios he names, there are two top-50 prospects -- martinez (# 30 overall) and flores (#47) in the met package, and brown (#48) / carrasco (#52) in the phillie package. again, that’s consistent w/ previous deals of this type -- haren netted two top-50 prospects (anderson and gonzalez), ditto santana (guerra and gomez), ditto josh beckett (ramirez and sanchez), ditto bedard (jones and tillman).
wallace is a top-50 guy, but nobody else in the stl system has that kind of heft. so i don’t think wallace / kozma / todd gets it done; i think there’s got to be (at least) a 4th prospect in the deal.
by lboros on Jul 8, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
clarifying
a 4th significant prospect, as opposed to a lesser prospect as you speculate. ie, mortensen boggs and/or lynn.
even with an addition (or two) of that ilk, the trade might still be in the cards’ interest if riccardi would bite. . . . .
by lboros on Jul 8, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's so much speculation regarding TOR scouting reports
and internal STL valuations of the prospects that it’s hard for me to say you’re wrong. It’s also hard for me to say you’re right.
Whether that’s Wallace, Kozma, Todd & Lynn/Mort/Boggs or another player, I don’t know. I think an argument can be made that Wallace is the single best prospect that TOR is going to get their hands on (I’m not a huge Fernando Martinez fan and the Phillies prospects do very little to excite me). So if the Cardinals have a better #1 than any other deal does that mean they get to lighten the load on the back end? We’re all just guessing at that point.
I guess the one thing I’ll be firm about is that I think this deal can happen without trading both Wallace & Jones (likely the top 2 prospects headed into 2010).
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's true, we're just guessing
in the end they take the player(s) they like the best, not the one(s) with the highest BA rankings. and i’ll admit i don’t know anything about the NY/PHA prospects other than their rankings.
on the other hand -- we know that mark derosa cost the cardinals chris perez (a top 100 guy two years running) plus (probably) todd or samuels. 1.5 seasons of halladay is worth, what, 4 or 5 times as much as derosa for 1/2 season? i’m just guessing off the cuff here, and trying to adjust for salary . . . . . . . in any case, the derosa trade is a useful calibration tool. whatever you think the ratio is between halladay’s value and derosa’s, that should be reflected in their trade cost. if you think halladay x 1.5 is worth 4 times as much as derosa x 0.5, then the trade package should be worth about 4 times as much as perez + samuels.
by lboros on Jul 8, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
BA, Law, Goldstein
Martinez – 30, 16, 44
brown – 48, 84, NR
Wallace – 40, 19, 37
There’s a Martinez/Wallace debate to be had but again, individual scouting reports make all the difference here and speculation would be nearly fruitless. They are probably comparable values as prospects.
I think the Phillies are getting a lot of media play because they are so willing to give up their top prospects rather than their top prospects actually being very good. They gave up Cardenas to get Blanton last year (what a horrible trade) so they’re in a real win now mode. If the Cardinals wanted to, they could beat any Phillies package, imo.
The salary diff between DeRosa and Halladay really makes it difficult for me to compare. It seems like the DeRosa market was so much bigger because he was cheaper. Which seems kinda counterintuitive but maybe I’m just not smart enough to figure out what that means for the market.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you guys have an idea about what cities halladay would look for?
given his NTC, he’d be able to nix a trade to any city he didn’t care for. he seems to like stl. do we know how he feels about LA, Philly, the mets, etc.? even if he doesn’t like those organizations, he has to know he’d be more likely to get an lengthy, expensive extension in those places. any intuition on how geography, money, club philosophy, etc., would play into these negotiations?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's from Arky right?
He’d be a natural fit in STL
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially because Carp is here;
they’re still good friends, right?
by santiagofish on Jul 8, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just read that they are friends
Maybe Carp could talk Roy into making St Louis his only acceptable destination Wouldn’t that be great?
by Walking Underwear on Jul 8, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
we can dream.
that would be awesome.
Halladay trade to Philly: REJECTED
Halladay trade to LA: REJECTED
Halladay trade to Milwaukee: REJECTED TWICE
…
(Riciardi): well the hell do I send you, Roy?
(Roy): I WANNA GO TO !@#$ ST. LOUIS!!!
(Mo): I’ll give you Pete Kozma, Rick Ankiel, and Brad Thompson
(Riciardi): shit…
R.P.O.F.Y.M.
by BVHeck on Jul 10, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha! What if Halladay is even better friends with
Scott Rolen…..
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 10, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
I was thinking of AJ Burnett
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They all look the same to you,
don’t they?
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 8, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's true
Power pitcher profiling
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair points AZ
maybe wallace is the single best talent they can get -— or, at least, tied for the best.
another way to gauge this is to use the sabathia trade of last year -- roughly comparable talent, and roughly comparable salary (cc made $9m last year, a bit less than halladay but close enough).
for 1/2 a season of that, it cost the brew crew matt laporta, a 2d prospect from the lower 1/2 of the top 10 (ie brantley), and a couple of throw-ins. the total WAR in that package — using PECOTA as a very rough guide — is about 15 WAR over the next 6 years (ie, before the players hit free agency). the cards would be getting halladay for 3 times as long, so multiply by roughly 3 . . . . . . and you get 45 WAR.
PECOTA values wallace and kozzy at about 25 WAR combined before they hit free agency. add jess todd and you’re up to 31 WAR . . . that’s getting into the right neighborhood, but odds are you still need a mortensen or lynn (or maybe even daryl jones, valued by PECOTA at about 10 WAR over the next 6 years) to reach the equivalent value.
as you said -- different GM, different scouting organization, different economic climate, etc etc., so there’s no way to know for sure what TOR would accept. i’m still betting it would take 4 of our top 10, but i could be (hope i am) wrong.
by lboros on Jul 8, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is sort of for both of you guys....
You both follow this stuff more than I do, I’m sure, but if it requires another significant prospect, wouldn’t Bryan Anderson be a potential trade chip that would hurt our future a lot less than some of the other guys mentioned?
He was still our 5th rated prospect, so we’re still talking a top 10 prospect, and obviously as opposed to some of the other guys mentioned, we have less of a need of an everyday catcher with Yadi than we do an everyday outfielder or everyday middle infielder.
Or has he fallen so far that he’s not really an attractive prospect anymore?
by mtalken on Jul 8, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anderson has
a separated shoulder from a home plate collision. Out for the year I believe.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 8, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or has he fallen so far that he’s not really an attractive prospect anymore?
Ignoring the separated shoulder, I’d have to say yes.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 9, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the fundamental problems of this deal,
Is exactly what mtalken addresses – giving away prospects that are not only good, but vital to the organization in the very near future. Without Wallace and Jones, we have to stick with god knows who at 3rd (Mather, T. Greene, Craig, Freese, etc.) and Duncan as our de facto left fielder for years to come. While there are many doubts that come along with Wallace (Bad body, limited defense) and Jones (power potential, track record), we really don’t have any immediate answers. If we got Halladay, the list of outfielders and 3rd basemen available in 2010 is less than inspired. I don’t understand why more people don’t talk about trying to acquire Brandon Wood or Brad Penny?
by sleeple55 on Jul 9, 2009 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I want to be in favor of this trade. I REALLY do. And I think I actually still am, but the one thing holding me back was the lineup someone posted that involved Brendan Ryan, Skip and David Freese all in the infield, along with Duncan still in left.
That has a potential to be a lineup where once you get past the 5 spot in the lineup, there is a secondary group of hitters that are pretty nearly black holes.
At the same time, the one thing that keeps me optimistic is that in the past this organization has been very good at hunting through the scrap heap to get guys like Tony Womack a few years back. Sometimes these guys don’t stay hot for all 162 games, but if we get one additional player who is on a hot streak per month (like our entire offense was in April, just spread those out), then the lineup isn’t as bleak.
And of course, the flipside is we’d have a PlayStation rotation for the rest of this year and going into next.
by mtalken on Jul 9, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of the PTBNL going to Cleveland.
If it is Todd or Samuel can we still trade one of those guys or do we have to offer one of the two to Cleveland before we trade them elsewhere.
Otherwise can’t we just trade one of them and Cleveland is stuck with the one we have left?
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no I'm pretty sure cleveland have to agree to any trade of a player on the ptbnl list
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 9, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct as I understand the rules
Cash settlement can be made if no agreement is reached.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 9, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that the Cubs have lost
Dempster for at least for a month and that the Brewers pitching is struggling should releave some pressure of the Cards overpaying in making a deal for more pitching.
by ridgesee on Jul 8, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is a weird deal for me
In that I don’t want the deal to get done because it would decimate our farm system, but I wouldn’t be upset in the least if it did get done. He is, after all, the best pitcher in baseball
by mysterui on Jul 8, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah i'm kinda in the same boat
it would be hugely exciting, yet slightly scary.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 9, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Photo Caption
I am curious to what Red Baron used as a caption. It tells me it was removed by an obscenity filter.
hmmm.
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 8, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gold Star
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 8, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Major points
for Colby-wan. Major.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
Inspired, inspired nickname.
by santiagofish on Jul 8, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
High five!
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fist bump!
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why can't
I meet any women who want to dance around in my living room in mustard-colored spandex?
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 8, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It will happen.
The fashion is coming back around.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't see this trade happening...
I’m fine with Carp, Wainwright, & Lohse.
I think Lohse is just going to get better over time. If it wasn’t for his freak accidents he would be sitting on some nice stats.
Carp for Halladay is redundant.
Wainwright may turn into a Halladay plus he is cheaper & has more mileage left on his arm.
I also think that is too much talent to give up.
Not to mention with all that cash tied up in 4 starters if one goes down we are screwed. You know one of them will. That is just the way things go in baseball.
But it would be pretty nasty to toss out a rotation of Carp/Halladay/Wainwright/Lohse/Piniero
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 11:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll take your nasty
and raise you a filthy.
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The crazy thing is
Right now, the rotation would look more like this:
1. Halladay
2. Carp
3. Pineiro
4. Wainwright
5. Lohse
That’s all I’ll say because I don’t want to jinx Pinny’s sinker.
by mojowo11 on Jul 8, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My sentiment exactly,
I don’t think you could have summed up how I feel about this opportunity any other way. I think the move is a HUGE gamble, but it does make it the favorite, and that just makes me plain excited. If we can get to the WS (which we could with that staff) then I say pull the trigger and hope your gamble works out.
by t7rick on Jul 8, 2009 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I kinda come down on this side of it too...
I figure you have a small handful of prime Albert years left and so far this year, it looks like 2009 might very well be his best to-date. It would be a shame to waste any of his insanely productive years, particularly given that it’s no certainty he’ll be here after the end of his current deal.
You also are sporting a roster with a healthy (knocks on wood) Carp and an emerging, lately dominating Wainwright. You’ve got a solid young CF in Rasmus, a former Silver Slugger in Ludwick, an All-Star Catcher, an All-Star Closer, plus some decent complimentary pieces in the pen.
I’m always all for building from within, but I also feel like you need to strike when the iron is hot, so to speak. The division is there for the taking; I’d hate to not take advantage of the circumstances. Maybe that extra piece isn’t Halladay, but I think it would be foolish not to at least think about improving THIS year.
by goodymobb on Jul 8, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I refuse to acknowledge the possibility
of Albert Pujols ever wearing a uniform that doesn’t have a red bird on it. Ever.
"Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey.
The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
- Phillies pitcher Tug McGraw, on his plans for his $75,000 salary
by saveferris on Jul 8, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's all about pot odds :-)
Higher World Series win odds:
IF Halladay – trade package + 09/10 teams > stand pat til 13ish THEN trade!
IF trade pacakage + 09-13ish teams > Halladay – trade package + 09/10 teams THEN don’t trade!
Any poker players/math guys wanna take a swing at the % it would take to make this +ev?? (I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking)
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 8, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Be careful
You actually included the word “then” in an if-then statement, you’re no longer open to interpretation
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahahah i totally did that on purpose, good spot :)
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 8, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
As of right now, BP has the cards at 62% making the playoffs…umm…what would halladay add to that?? When they get to the playoffs, the secret sauce rating with him would sky rocket….Just eyeing it up makes this a +EV trade… I don’t see the cards reaching higher % of winning the WS in the near future.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 8, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember,
the playoffs are The Triumph Of Small Sample Size; dominant starters give a team an edge.
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jul 8, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep, that's why I mentioned BP's secret sauce
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd assume we'd get a huge odds increase,
somewhere on the order of 25%. We’re near that sweet spot where every marginal win is a huge upgrade.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it hard to believe that the current Cards team with a 1 win lead
plus Roy Halladay has a 90% chance of making the playoffs. In fact, add Babe Ruth, Ted Williams and Satchel Paige and I still don’t think we have a 90% chance of making the playoffs this year.
That said, I can’t see where BP is getting 62% from. Given the tiny lead we have, they’re basically saying we’re a much better team than the Cubs or the Brewers. I just don’t see that we are. If anything, I’d say it’s about a push with the Crew and we’re a bit worse than the Cubs.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 9, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember that 62% includes the WC
so its that we are that much better than the Brewers and Cubs or that much better than: (Brewers or Cubs) and (insert NL east contender here).
FWIW the PECOTA-adjusted version of our chances after last night’s game is 53%
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 9, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re missing a couple of else statements. :-p
by sbentley on Jul 8, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would do it
It does make us the favorite for not just this year, but likely next also, as you pointed out. We might as well put all of our eggs in this basket while Albert is still in his awesome machine mode. He has not shown a single bit of slowing down, but he will eventually, and he must take advantage of this before he does.
by Shi on Jul 8, 2009 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
also
i dont think we could find a much better trade partner for a guy like wallace. he is definitely better suited for the AL as DH is now an option. and they could use a cost-controlled slugger with wells and rios underperforming by plenty.
by Shi on Jul 8, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no offense
but i couldn’t care less about how well this works out for Blue Jay Wallace
R.P.O.F.Y.M.
by BVHeck on Jul 10, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is about the only sensible argument
i still don’t give up wallace for him
dj, kozma, lynn, ptbn
no more, hopefully less. his no trade clause could play in our favor.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace? Seriously?
If he can’t play third in the majors, he has no position in our organization. This is exactly why we drafted Wallace — to trade him for a player like Halladay (unless he’s insurance in the event we can’t resign Pujols). They’ll want Wallace and we should be thankful for it. Jones is the one we’re likely to miss much more.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if
exactly
and if he can stick at third base, he’s a huge piece to our offense going forth. not worth the gamble. i’d much rather give a high average, no power prospect who plays a premium position that we have covered for the next decade or so.
wallace is definitely no pablo sandoval and his tubalub ass can cut it at 3b even when the giants have a hole at 1b. i think everyone is way to hard on the defense of a guy who is one year removed from college. give. him. time. i will vomit all over my keyboard if we give up a hanley ramirez bat for 1.5 years of an ace when we already have 2-2.5
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where do you get
that Wallace is Hanley Ramirez redux? I’d love for him to step in and be an All-Star immediately and be the best 3B in the game within a year or 2 but that strikes me as a bit far fetched. I’d like for Wallace to solidify the Cards’ 3B position for the next 10 years but we need to prepare ourselves for the possibility that he’s nothing more than a DH as well. He’s a very good prospect but he’s not a can’t-miss prospect.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Number one-
The Hanley Ramirez comparisons are just bizarre. One was signed young out of the DR, one was drafted in the first round late in his college career. One was seen as a plus-defense hopeful-bat good-but-not-great prospect who just happened to explode when he hit the bigs. The other is a defense-last, positionless, blocked at 1B player who has always, always been seen as an extremely polished bat.
When Hanley was traded he (among others) was not traded for that much value to a team in fire-sale mode in the offseason for a pitcher with a spotty record for health and an ERA expected to be 4-ish, and a salary dump. Wallace is suggested as the centerpiece for a mid-season trade for a 1.5 year rental of one of the best and most proven pitchers in the league.
How in the hell is this a comparison at all?
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not comparing
wallace the overall prospect to hanley the overall prospect. i’m comparing wallace the prospect’s bat to hanley the second best hitter in the game’s bat. and i’m saying wallace could top out that high. point being he is an extremely high reward player and i’m not ready to take that gamble, especially before albert signs long term
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why hanley?
because i fucken love the dude and i think his bat (high average, moderate power) profiles similar to wallace’s
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hanley is not the 2nd best hitter in the game
although I realise that’s entirely immaterial to your argument. Just thought I’d be pedantic :-)
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 9, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who do you think is
maybe he’s not the second best hitter, it’s obviously debatable, but with his speed, arm and d, he’s the second best overall player in the game for me
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 9, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously a good bit of subjective objectivity here...
But I think Joe “found my power” Mauer is #2
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 9, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i only said
that his offensive ceiling could be as high as a hanley type bat. considering that looks like such a pure hitter and isn’t projected to have huge power. he’s definitely not going to be a hanley type defender and he won’t steal 30 bases a year.
in reality, he could be no better a hitter than thurston, but i think he’ll be well above league average with the potential to be one of the best young hitters in the game and develop into one of the best period
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOW
I am torn here. I am a big believer in Wallace and I like DJ Tools quite a bit. But I REALLY like Halladay and he would be the biggest acquisition the Cards have made in my lifetime. And I agree with the rotation of Halladay/Waino/Carp we would have to be the favorites. I also think that any trade discussion for Halladay starts with Wallace and most likely DJ Tools. After that I agree the deal would take AT LEAST 1 more plus prospect and most likely a pitcher. So that group would be Mort, Boggs, Lynn, Samuel and Todd. And there is a possibility that a 4th player would have to be thrown in…but I am not sure if a guy like Kozma would be necessary. I think they take their pick of DJ Tools OR Kozma (since they have expressed interest in a MI) and add that to Wallace and one of the pitchers. Then maybe we throw in a low minors high risk/high reward type guy. That SHOULD get them to really ponder the offer. I am not worried about this year or next with needing our prospects to contribute more….but I am concerned with the big payday Albert will get and losing a top of the rotation guy in Halladay in 2011….we will need cost controlled players to fill out the roster starting at that point. Will we have enough talent developed at that point to make this work long term? Impossible to tell. But I would support the trade if it involved these players…it is just hard to swallow!
by JDizzidy on Jul 8, 2009 11:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Its like choosing between the biggest story of your career or the woman than you once had familiar relations with
Got DeRosa. Thurston still sucks.
by JoeyBombs on Jul 8, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this post counts as subdued...
…I can’t wait to read one that you’d consider lively. Awesome analysis of the roster and payroll impact. Can’t find this quality of stuff anywhere else.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 11:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Draft Picks
Don’t forget about the draft picks you pick up if/when Halladay walks as a free agent.
by Knish on Jul 8, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I forgot to mention that in my post. But a no brainer Type A and the draft picks are definitely worth noting.
by JDizzidy on Jul 8, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand the draft compensation very well
but if I remember correctly, when CC and Sheets each left MIL, the Brew Crew really didn’t recoup anything of note. What is the stipulation that guarantees a team receive high picks and not just supplemental/late rounders? What happened that MIL basically got nothing?
by goodymobb on Jul 8, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MIL got nothing
because Sheets didn’t sign with anyone, and the Yankees signed 3 Free Agents and only had 1 First round pick to give up, so MIL got screwed.
Halliday is most definitely a Type A, so we would get the signing teams first round pick (assuming we offer arbitration)
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
by stlhulsey on Jul 8, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...and also assuming the signing team's pick isn't in the top 15
Picks 1-15 are protected, in which case we would get said team’s second rounder.
In the case of CC, Teixeria was rated slightly higher so the Yankees’ first round pick went to the Angels. If I remember correctly, anyway.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They didn't get nothing
They got Kentrail Davis and Maxwell Walla in their compensation picks for CC (and Kyle Heckathorn for Shouse).
Davis was a first-round sammich pick, and Walla a second-rounder. They didn’t get the three first rounders and two supplementals they’d been hoping for since the Yankees signed Tex and Sheets is out for the season, but it’s not nothing.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 8, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
odds either of them are wallace caliber?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe if we could flip Wagon Maker for a bat this would be feasible?
I still think we really need a bat more than another starter.
And we do have Carp. If healthy he gives Halladay a run for his money for the title of best pitcher in baseball.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 11:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if we flip Wagon Maker for a bat
it better be the equivalent of Evan Longoria, otherwise i’ll burn Busch to the ground.
by dcfcblues on Jul 8, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
burninatint the countryside
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burninating all the peoples
And their thatched-roof cottages!
by mojowo11 on Jul 8, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
back up off my wainer
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We still need offense
Rick Ankiel won’t be back next year, so we will have a slot in the OF open. If we trade Jones, we are putting a lot of pressure on Mather’s bad wrist.
We will also need a 3B. That will never be David Freese. He’s already got two strikes against him with Larussa because of the off-season. With no Wallace, we will need a 3B fill in.
When Glaus’ contract ends, that cash would go directly to Halladay, plus 2M. Where are we going to find the cash to get a 3B and LF that improve our bottom of the league offense? No help comes from the minors as we just traded away our nearest ready talent.
Offense needs to be the focus. I know we are a Carpenter injury away from having the 07 rotation back but if we are going to move out top prospects, let’s get a young position player back instead.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 11:51 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
+1
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true,
a young position player may be optimal here, but you won’t find one with halladay’s value.
by Shi on Jul 8, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at the moment
but down the line he could be nearly as valuable as halladay is now
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would we give up young position players to get a young position player back?
I can’t think of too many available young position players that are worth giving up Wallace + Jones/Kozma/Whoever
by mysterui on Jul 8, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ryan zimmerman
DO IT!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...Get Zimm for 3B before Halladay please.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
zimmerman is not worth that package
longoria, sure. not zimmerman
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Longaria has no shot at being traded. Pretend he does not exist. Now would you trade for Zimm ?
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i would trade for zimm
not that package, though. and i’d be surprised if zimm was much more available than longoria
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd give up Wallace + Kozma + Mortensen
for Zimm
by dcfcblues on Jul 8, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would the Nats take that?
Even fi they were trading Zimmerman, which they aren’t.
Basically they get a possible replacement, and two trash “prospects”.
by DiscoJer on Jul 8, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if everybody in our system who is ranked lower than kozma and mort
is trash, then we’ve been doing something wrong for the last several years.
trash is a pretty harsh term for the best SS prospect in our system and a very real starter possibility in 2010.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's only
the best ss prospect at the AA or above level
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i highly doubt that with niko vasquez's current season that he
remains a top 10 talent. the only other serious candidates are 2009 draftees.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
grabiel hernandez
is who i had in mind
just too far off to be considered a top prospect
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kozma and Mort are trash prospects?
Good to know.
by dcfcblues on Jul 8, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can
Justin Upton, for one.
Wallace has position questions. You trade him to get a guy you know can start for you.
Remember, Halladay is at his peak. For the $25M you would be paying him you could buy 4 years of a younger position player from a team that knows they need to start from scratch.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 12:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
you think upton's available?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What incentive does Arizona have in trading Upton?
He doesn’t cost more than Wallace + Jones, and he’s actually younger than Wallace and putting up RIDICULOUS numbers as a 21 year old.
I’m not arguing for or against trading for Halladay, but I’m saying young positional players just aren’t available in this market, and if they are, they’re not worth giving up the Walrus
by mysterui on Jul 8, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I don't believe Justin Upton is availble
Although, if some team offered you their 4 top prospects and you were currently in last place, starring at a guy that is likely to make $200 M in 3 years…would you take the call?
Zimmerman MIGHT be available for that package and he is another position player worth it. He is a FA in 2013, makes $41 M over the next 4 years on a team whose overall payroll is less than $60 M a year.
The point was, we would be blowing up the top of the farm system and not addressing the team’s real need.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think the nats should trade zimmerman
and if they do, i think the cards should be all over it
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, of course you do
because you’re a Cards fan, not a Nats fan.
Zimmerman is ALL they have for the future offensively. He’s young and locked up. Why on earth do you “think they should trade zimm”? That’d be like thinking it’s a good time for us to trade Rasmus.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jul 8, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we were in last place, the worst team in baseball
we owed Rasmus $41 M over the next 4 years on a $60 M payroll (as the high number) and the other team offered us their 4 best positional prospects?
I’d certainly consider that trade.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa Resign?
Few things to note:
1) Even with Halladay’s contract next year (pretty much Glaus + 2M as stated) we lose Pineiro 7.5M, Kennedy 4M, K. Greene 6.5M, Welly 4M and Ankiel ~3M – So we will have some funds to play with…obviously we have guys getting raises and we need to fill the holes that will be left with guys leaving…but its not like we will be broke. We would have roughly $15M left to spend after giving some guys some raises
2) I think we could get DeRosa at a reasonable rate for a shorter term deal or offer him arbitration and hopefully he accepts. That could fill our 3B need or he could play a super utility role if we find another answer at 3B.
3) Our OF slot could be filled by a number of guys: Skip could move back to OF is Hoffpauir or Descalso is ready to take over 2B, Jay, Rapoport, Shane Peterson or Robinson. Those are all options…also DeRosa could play OF if we resigned him or he accepted arbitration. Plus if we didn’t like those option we could look at the FA market…and surely we can find someone for around 5M to play OF.
I certain think there should be concerns about our future but we would still have areas of strength in our system. We would still have some high upside RP’s that could fill in and we have some middle to back of the rotation depth. We also have some decent OF and C depth. And who knows who will come out of no where in our system by the end of the year/early next year. Halladay is a rare talent…the reward and boost to the team would be enormous.
by JDizzidy on Jul 8, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those OF'ers are options
like Stavinoha is an option. If we wanted a warm body to fill the position, those would all fit the profile. But none with improve the offense greatly (although, over Ankiel much improvement isn’t that hard).
As far as increases, Ludwick, Molina and Lohse all will see the payroll increase about $3.5 M. Wainwright is another $2 M, Reyes $ 1M. That would leave us $ 9 M to fill out the rotation, 3B and the OF.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Descalso to 2B and Slip to the outfield
is a viable alternative though.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(Potentially)
(Descalso has been getting rave reviews but I haven’t seen enough to know first hand.)
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Finance Breakdown
We should have $16M left over PRIOR to Arbitration cases. I got this figure by adding all the salaries that would be coming off the books (total of ~$38.4M) and minused the guaranteed salary increases plus Halladay’s 2010 salary ($22.5). The Arbitration Cases will be lead by Skip and Luddy but no one else should get a significant increase. Depending on how Luddy does in the 2nd half we can assume he will get at least $1M increase and Skip will most likely get at least $1M. So assume each get $1.5M…that is $3M total. minus that from the $16M that we have left and we still have $13M. The rotation needs for next year is just the #5 spot (Halladay, Carp, Waino and Lohse top 4) and that will be filled by one of our minor leaguers most likely (Boggs, Mort, Garcia, Walter, Lynn, etc.). So that will be filled internally. 3B will be either Freese, Mather or someone we sign (DeRosa would be a great resign IMO). SS will most likely be Ryan again assuming he doesn’t bomb in 2nd half and we have T. Greene to fill in when needed. OF could be internal or could be external…but you don’t have to break the bank to find a decent to slightly above avg corner OF. So basically if my calculations are correct we have $13M to sign and OF and 3B. If we got DeRosa for say 5-7M that leaves 6-8M for an OF. There are plenty of good 2010 FA OF options out there in that price range.
by JDizzidy on Jul 8, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget...
the $4M Welle is making this year (he walks next year and no buyout to pay).
by Jumsy on Jul 8, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welly doesn't walk next year
He sprints out of town ahead of the townsfolk with pitchforks and torches
"I don't take no anesthetic. Did Lincoln ask for any girlie gas when they blowed his head off?"
by boba schrute on Jul 17, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offense needs to be the focus?
Tell that to the giants.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants play in the worst division in baseball
they get to fatten up a lot on some really terrible teams.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although they are .500
in their own division this year.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just not true.
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/7/1/934886/btb-power-rankings-through-tuesday
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time believing the Colorado Rockies
are the 8th best team in the league.
And, if we are going by that table, the Giants are the 25th worst team in the league, just barely worse than the Cardinals. Not something we should be striving for.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd better choose.
I don’t feel like arguing both ends.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even sure which end you are arguing.
Tell the Giants they shouldn’t focus on their offense…
….when according to that table they were the worst team in baseball a week ago?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts exactly
It would be great to get Halladay, but for 1.5 years and by selling off all the top talent in our system? All this investment in the farm was only for 1.5 years of Roy Halladay (I’m exaggerating a little)? The problem with selling Wallace and Jones is that the organization already has a clear need at their positions when they will be MLB ready. Send them elsewhere and you get a great pitcher, but now you have to figure out who is going to man the outfield and 3rd base. It certainly shores up the starting rotation for 1.5 years, but it creates major question marks for the team, and those question marks can’t always be answered.
And honestly, I think 3 years of cheap Wallace is probably more valuable than 1.5 of Halladay, though I do recognize the importance of Halladay’s ability to possibly take us to that World Series championship.
by rthorat on Jul 8, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay's a 6-7 win player
and possibly more in the weaker NL. We’re not going to be able to find 6-7 wins among left fielders and third basemen in the free agent market. What difference does it make if we get those wins at the plate or on the mound, so long as we get them?
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did we learn nothing from Mulder and Carpenter?
Pitchers are extreme injury risks. They are also very difficult to project year to year. Yes if healthy, he will probably be great. But that is a huge if. Position players are much more consistent and much less of an injury risk.
We already have 1-2 ACE pitchers. We don’t need a 3rd. We do however need to get Thurston and Duncan/Ankiel off the field every day. Halladay might be 6-7 wins, But its probably easier and cheaper to replace those holes in the OF and 3B and get more wins. Epically since we are replace borderline negative players rather than a slightly positive SP.
by DriverZn on Jul 8, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how?
1.5 years of Roy Halladay is about the best you’re going to get in terms of getting a top-notch player w/ little injury risk. Of course there’s some; there always is. But how is it possible to get 6-7 wins at 3B and LF. It’s possible that Wallace could step in next year and be a 3 win player at 3b. Can we get a 3 win OF in the free agent market? Again, maybe. And I’m extremely sanguine on Daryl Jones being a 3-4 win player but he won’t be that next year and probably not in 2011 either. I’m OK w/ standing pat and riding it out — letting Wallace become the 3B next year and Jones into the OF w/ Jay next year or in 2011 but it doesn’t help us this year or next really.
If we want to go for it this year or next, this is the best opportunity we have. I’m ok w/ going w/ the building for the future approach as well but I don’t feel that Adrian Beltre and Randy Winn can get us 6-7 wins next year. Plus, the team’s financial obligation to Halladay would end next year and not in 3-4 years.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We cannot "go for it" every single year, thats how we got into this mess in the first place.
The short sighted “go for it” types were excited the last time we tried to trade for an ACE and gave away our future. Had we not made that deal we are not even talking about this one. How good would Haren, Carp, & WW have looked now?
But because 3 years ago we “went for it” now we want to “go for it” again. Where do you think we will be in 2 years? Right, because we play in a soft division we will be in the running again and then, gasp, need hitting and pitching again.
You don’t trade away A list prospects for rentals unless you think you can sign the rental long term OR know the prospect has no place on the team. Halladay doesn’t help us win all the games where we are getting shutout or just scoring a couple. Sure he might win a few 1-0 and 2-1 games for us, but we need offsense. Espically on the other 4 out of 5 days he is not on the mound.
Every year we hear “this is out best chance to win” only to hear it again the next year. See a problem with using the “short term” plan as a every year plan?
This “we have to win while we have Albert” meme is dumb. Every WS winning team this decade save one did just fine without an Albert. A player is there to help the team, not the team to serve a player.
I want to stick with the plan that gives us a good shot for the next 5-6 years vs a great shot in 1-2. As 2004 proved, there is no sure thing.
by DriverZn on Jul 8, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also, though...
It depends on what is seen as the goal of the team. If Dewitt/Mo/TLR/Dunc’s goal is to win as many WS as they can as soon as they can…then they should be in a “win now” mode. If the goal is to constantly field a pretty decent team and be near the top of the Central every year, maybe making the playoffs, maybe not…then the “build from within for as long as it takes” mode should be taken. This team is somewhere in the middle, which is where I think it should be. They haven’t traded off the most important chips of Rasmus, Wallace, Boggs, Jones, Jay?, Anderson?, et al. They have traded off RH relief pitchers who seem to be a dime a dozen in our system as of late.
by stlfan on Jul 9, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's Bernie's
somewhat shallower analysis of a Halladay trade.
by santiagofish on Jul 8, 2009 11:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
With reference to one Erik Manning of FutureRedbirds.net no less!
See, this is why Bernie is so frustrating… why can’t we just have Good Bernie all the time instead of having to mix him up with Lowest Common Denominator Bernie so much?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you guys Twitter.....
This conversation happened between the two of them last night on twitter….. I have seen some decent conversations between erik, bernie, goold, and leach during games.
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 8, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he also mentions that derosa
might be out 4-8 weeks. is he just speculating or has anyone else said the same thing?
by huts04 on Jul 8, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the "typical"
recovery time for the injury. We’ll see.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is from Will Carroll
…Baseball Prospectus injury guy. This is also the same injury that sidelined Big Papi for 7 weeks last year.
by indakind on Jul 8, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying
that it isn’t reasonable. I’m just saying ’we’ll see."
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What, you don't take Cardinal injury reports seriously?
Sheesh
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im no doctor but
I think it was tom s who mentioned a google search of DeRo’s injury turned up David Ortiz’ name. I read his MLB bio last night and he was out last year from july1 to june25 with a similar injury. (8 weeks)
by Walking Underwear on Jul 8, 2009 3:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
july 1-june 25 thats almost a year. :)
by ADMDrayson on Jul 8, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops
U know what I meant
by Walking Underwear on Jul 8, 2009 4:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
i have been totally against dealing for doc all morning
due to what i believe will be a huge outlay of talent…but i’m not gonna lie RB, you have made me giddy with your argument of why we should do it
good lord…i may actually be on the fence now…you should work for the cards PR dept
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 11:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like RB's proposal
I still say it is better if we throw in LaRussa . Plus if they get both Wallace and Jones, I want Scotty back.
Wallace, Jones, Samuel, Kozma, Lohse, and LaRussa for Halladay and Rolen (cuz having 4 starters making THAT much money is just effin crazy).
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 8, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes. Scotty.
Now that sweetens the pot. And without TLR, he might just come back.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 8, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'd take aaron hill as well
Halladay, Rolen, and Hill for Wallace, Jones, Samuel, Kozma, Lohse, LaRussa, George Paletta, and Al Hrabosky
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Scott Rolen? Back here in St. Louis? You must have not gotten the memo-you are supposed to hate Scott Rolen. Tony does; you do too! It’s a rule. I’m sorry. He can’t come back here.
I kind of wish he would, though.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 8, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to brew crew
there have been discussions of J J. Hardy even up for Haladay.
by ridgesee on Jul 8, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you mean straight up
they would be laughed off the planet…that can’t be what you mean
the brewers actually scare me…i think they have the pieces to pull the deal off
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just read that Brewers offered Hardy
no other players mentioned. I should not have stated the “even.”
by ridgesee on Jul 8, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Won't happen
the Brewers would have to give up Escobar instead of Hardy. That would be doing the Brewers a favor.
“Would you please take our SS that is likely to leave in FA so we can start our top prospect SS in his place AND get the best pitcher in baseball? Mkay, thx, bye!!”
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Lance Armstrong is ridiculous
Second place in the Tour de France after 5 stages
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
His team is awesome too
Don’t they have Leipheimer and Contador in that team?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know they have contador
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So when does Contador
throw a fit? Or is this all a grand plan such that Lance will lead until the last mile, then laugh loudly and let Contador take over?
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Contador and Armstrong
have both been out there saying that they just want to have Astana win and hopefully in doing so one will take the Yellow Jersey. Lance is out there saying that he wants the team to do well and that Contador is the main guy on the team. He’s just helping out Contador.
The “problem” is that Lance’s instincts are ridiculous. He was the only one on his team to notice the breakaway the other day that jumped him from 10th to 3rd.
by stlfan on Jul 9, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the other stars on his team....
I just hope he’s not wearing himself out early, trying to prove he’s the alpha dog.
He usually sticks with the pack until around Stage 9-10, I think.
by mtalken on Jul 9, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We took 8 walks last night
Good sign!
Rick Ankiel was the only position player to not reach base. He hits like a pitcher!
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Worse
he doesn’t bunt, he just strikes out.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
swings like a pitcher
I don’t recall him connecting last night
by ubeddie on Jul 8, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his AB's last night,
I know 0-5 w/ 4K’s isn’t great, but he did look at a lot of pitches and work the count pretty well. I’ll take that over one of the “0-5 with 3 pop-up’s on the first pitch,” kind of nights he’s been throwing up all season….
by duncans_army on Jul 8, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could have a point there
it might, just might (please God) be something like a decent first step to a better approach.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
Don’t get me wrong, I have 90% given up on him for the year. But as long as TLR keeps trotting him out there I’m gonna have to hope he at least improves a little bit, just for the sake of my own sanity.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can take pitches and strike out 4 times no prob. i mean thats 12 pitches to me..give me league minimum.
by ADMDrayson on Jul 8, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd almost be willing to swap you for Ankiel right now
I mean, the result can’t be that much different, though I have questions about your defense and outfield arm. The thing is, the manager wouldn’t trust you because you have so little big league experience so he wouldn’t play you. That might force him to play Luddy and Colby everyday…
Who am I kidding, he’d find some opportunity to trot out a Duncan/Schu/Stav outfield at least a few times…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan/Schu/Stav outfield?
try Duncan/Schu/Stav infield
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you are saying, but I disagree
To me, he looked like he still wasn’t seeing the ball well. His takes weren’t the type where you see him recognize a breaking pitch and then hold back. And I distinctly remember him chasing a shoulder high, outside fastball and being noticably behind it. It looked like he just made up his mind before the pitch whether he was going to swing or not.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 8, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How sad is it that a Golden Sombrero is something of an encouraging sign?
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 8, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I give it an 8.5
or, uh, 85% sadness. Plus a bunch for the whole “high hopes” bit.
the end of every half inning IS a turning point. -Evilfrog
by SleepyCA on Jul 9, 2009 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay
I don’t see Roy coming to STL, unless guys like Wallace, Anderson and Jones were thrown in. I could see something like this, I guess:
Lohse, Wallace, Anderson and Jones for Halladay. (In my mind, too much)
TLR: Please start Colby!
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 8, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not going to happen
Lohse has a NTC, and isn’t going to Toronto. Anderson is having shoulder surgery, so can’t be dealt.
You can't teach a hammer to love nails.
by the red baron on Jul 8, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don't want Lohse
They are trying to free up $$ and get cost controlled players. Lohse will not be in any deal.
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 8, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, but still
Don’t see it happening unless we trade a lot of our minor league talent for Halladay. And I doubt that will happen.
TLR: Please start Colby!
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 8, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anderson's out for the year.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: At least our players on the DL are present and accounted for:
via ESPN
Chicago White Sox pitcher Bartolo Colon is scheduled to make a minor league rehab start for Triple-A Charlotte on Thursday.
Problem is, the White Sox don’t know where he is.
“I know where he is supposed to be right now. He’s supposed to be in Charlotte, preparing to start Thursday,” White Sox GM Ken Williams said Tuesday, according to the Chicago Tribune. “Efforts to contact his agent have been successful. Their efforts to contact their client have not been so successful.”
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
did anyone ever find odalis perez
wasn’t he missing for a while too
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First, I'd check Burger King.
If he’s not there……maybe Cold Stone Creamery.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i hear he is an hardee's man actually
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There aren't any Hardee's here in Chicago.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa.
Weird.
http://www.insiderpages.com/store_finder/results/hardees/Chicago/IL
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 8, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm. Didn't know about the one in Montgomery.
I’m not too far from Montgomery.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya i miss their biscuits and gravy
the one i grew up by had an all you could eat deal for a few bucks
by nrichar2 on Jul 8, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wisconsin
There are a couple near Racine that I can get to fairly easily, but it’s certainly not near the house or on the (long) way to work. Did swing over there recently and had the all-you-can-eat biscuits & gravy, along with the homestyle potatoes – awesome!
Yeah, no Hardees nearby, nor Sonic (closest in Aurora), nor Jack In The Box, nor Scholtzsky’s Deli (actually found one in Arlington Heights, only in the broadest sense “on the way home”).
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Jul 8, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he fell off the wagon and went on a Krusty the Clown type Bender.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe
Krispy Kreme?
TLR: Please start Colby!
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 8, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think that whole white sox and colon relationship has probably degraded to levels not seen
outside open warfare or a really messy divorce. i bet colon won’t talk directly to williams or guilllen — he probably needs a third party to say "tell williams i said . . . "
the white sox are a shambles.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check the Appalacian Trail.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh. You mean Argentina?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
He was at MJ’s memorial service
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
RH
Hmmm, I don’t see it happening and frankly, if it did, we’d have to give up too much.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
by Zubin on Jul 8, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
someone else I'm bantering about Halladay with
says there is no way he waives his NTC unless the team signs a big time multiyear contract extension upfront. I haven’t seen anyone on here mention that. Is this other person just uninformed or might he be on to something? I don’t follow trades enough to be able to make that judgment myself.
by mattyp on Jul 8, 2009 12:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he waives it
for a chance to win this year and next year. He’s going to get his payday soon enough, and it’s not like he’s making chump change now, 15MM is nothing to sneeze at.
Albert Pujols is ridiculous.
by stlhulsey on Jul 8, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I were him
I’d come to the NL, get some NL numbers on my resume, and then sign that huge deal with my 2.00 ERA and 300 IP per year under my belt.
Or, you know, whatever stats he puts up.
by mojowo11 on Jul 8, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So let's say we are up against the Phils for the NL Penant.
Who wins game 1 with Carp on the mound against Halladay?
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They battle to a draw,
then it comes down to Lidge versus Pujols and/or Howard versus Franklin…
by santiagofish on Jul 8, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Answer.
No one wins.
The game goes into eternal extra innings opening up a blackhole that swallows the entire exisitence of what is baseball as we know it to be due to the inability of either team to score a run.
Unless…Pujols saves us all with a solo shot.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luckily the ONE thing TLR might be new school about
is playoff pitching matchups. He’d put Boggs or Puppykicker up against Halladay.
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But,
he would have Chris Carpenter go to press conferences and talk about pitching in Game 1 versus Halladay, leading to Boggs or PK having a mental breakdown mid-start.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 8, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, but odds are you were gonna lose that game anyway!
hahah.
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you really think Boggs has a 25 HR season in him as an outfielder?
If not, that whole scheme makes no sense.
the end of every half inning IS a turning point. -Evilfrog
by SleepyCA on Jul 9, 2009 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As usual RB, good post and a very clever title.
Does Halladay have that deep Gregory Peck voice? Does he like to drive around in a tiny Fiat?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
On the former,
sadly, he does not. On the latter, god, we can only hope.
You can't teach a hammer to love nails.
by the red baron on Jul 8, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace's defense
I think what is done with Wallace depends on their evaluation of his defense at 3rd. If it is in the realm of passable, then he’d seem to be a piece to build around. If not, then we really don’t have a place to easily put him. I have a hard time seeing him handling left field well. I haven’t seen enough at 3rd to have a very informed opinion, but I gather it’s a pretty tough call. A hugely important one too.
If you are going to make him a centerpiece of a deal, you could do a lot worse than Halladay, that’s for sure. The short term nature of his deal isn’t that big of a drawback to me, for a lot of the reasons Red Baron mentions. I think it leverages Carpenter’s remarkable return while still allowing for choices for the long term. Also, I just have an aversion to being on the hook for pitchers 4 plus years. If I’m going to make exceptions to that rule I do it with someone like Halladay, but there is still a risk there. I don’t mind seeing him for a year and a half, seeing where we are at, and negotiating with him at that point if you can make it work.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 8, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
With Wallace it all comes down to “can he stay at 3B”. If he can he has immense value to us since we need a 3B more than we need another SP.
However, if he cannot play 3B, then he has little value to the MLB team except what he can bring back in a trade. In that case flipping him in a deal like this works.
by DriverZn on Jul 8, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he can't stick at third, I really think LF is a very viable option.
He won’t need a ton of range in left for two reasons.
1. Everyone says he has a really good arm.
2. That young kid playing center field right now seems like he’s got OK range. What is his name again? Bah. I can’t remember.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 8, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think you're terribly wrong here.
dunc, for instance, is not speedy, but he CAN move. wallace is going to have a lot of trouble covering ground in left.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but his bat will be more than enough
to compensate for some range deficiencies in LF. His arm is way better than Dunc’s, even though is range may be less, the two may cancel each other out.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does an arm cancel our a lack of range and mobility?
You have to get to the ball before you can throw it. I would much prefer the OF just catch it rather than running it down and holding the runner to a double.
by DriverZn on Jul 8, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am unconvinced. this strikes me as wishful thinking.
i think if wallace doesn’t play at third, he needs to be traded. unless we just can’t resign pujols. first is the only position wallace clearly could play.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
another (unthinable reason) to not trade the walrus
unless we just can’t resign pujols
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not too many people complain a lot about Manny Ramirez in LF.
I’m not drawing a complete comparison between Wallace and ManRam, but I’m saying a fantastic bat can make some bad defense pretty tolerable.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 8, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Dunn disagrees
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as does jermaine dye.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my .02
Really good analysis.
My only contention is with the statement that “Come playoff time, those first three especially could blast through any opponent in short order. The Cards pick up Halladay, they’re the favourites to go to the World Series from the NL, I believe.”
I would certainly agree that the Cards are basically a lock for the playoff’s with a Halladay pick-up, but I think that anything beyond that is sheer luck. As much as I enjoy the MLB playoff’s, I do think they are a relative crap-shoot, with every team that makes it having roughly a 1/8 chance of winning the WS. I mean, the Phil’s bats could get hot against any pitcher, the Giants (current WC, but who knows…) have at least two top-tier pitchers that could shut down a line-up, and the Dodgers have a potent offense and pretty good pitching… maybe halladay shift’s us to 1/7… maybe…
With that assumption out of the way, the question for me becomes “is losing that talent worth a guaranteed trip to the playoff’s?” And with the current standing I say no… I think we have a good chance of making the playoff’s currently, and would rather see the team role the dice (w/ a decent chance of success, in my mind) than mortgage the future for a guaranteed season (maybe two…) of play-off gold.
by duncans_army on Jul 8, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BL Blogcast
Anyone seen this cool new feature on stltoday.com? There’s an interview with Brett Wallace up today. Kid seems like he’s got a good head on his shoulders.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 8, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Which, by the way
…is one of the best places to have your head.
by mojowo11 on Jul 8, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offense.
I’ve heard it mentioned several times- we need to upgrade the offense, not the pitching staff, notably spouted by Bernie in his most recent analysis.
This is bullcrap. Wins are wins. There is no one, absolutely no offensive player available who would be even on the same level of upgrade that Halladay over Wellemeyer is. Value-wise it’s like replacing Joe Thurston with Evan Longoria, except that there’s no way Longoria is available in a billion years. Halladay is an elite talent. It would be nice to replace Skip with Chase Utley, but there is simply no position player who is as talented as Halladay available. And don’t you dare give me the Matt Holliday line- he’s just not elite, he’s a deadline rental, and he’s not that big of an upgrade. Halladay has been twice as good.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, this is the only way it makes sense. halladay is a 6-7 win pitcher who'd be replacing a
basically replacement level pitcher. you can be pretty pessimistic about all the prospects that we’d be giving up but still think they’d provide more wins above replacement than the 10-12 wins halladay would in 9 months.
the difference is that none of them — even wallace — are likely to be 6-7 win type players. there are just a handful of players in the whole of the major leagues that provide that value. halladay is albert pujols in an off year, on a mound.
i think the rational bit of me says the trade doesn’t make sense, and these trades historically tend not to work out. but i’d be sorely tempted if the offer was out there.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay vs Wellemeyer
WAR:
Halladay – 3.8
Wellemeyer – 0.4
Difference + 3.4
WAR:
Joe Thurston – 0.3
Ryan Zimmerman – 3.1
Difference + 2.9
WAR:
Skip Schumaker – 0.0
Freddy Sanchez – 2.4
Difference +2.4
Neither is AS valuable as Halladay, though Zimmerman/Thurston is half a win close, but neither would cost us near as much as Halladay will.
This also doesn’t factor in dollar value as well.
And we could replace Wellemeyer with Boggs and trade for Sanchez and likely make up the difference by the end of the season.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That should be 2.8 for Zimm/Thursty.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but now you're falling into the pitfall of....
thinking that these stats will equate to their relative worth in the post season too.
When you consider what dominant pitching can do in the playoffs, and the thought of throwing a top three out there of Halladay, Carp and Wainwright, Halladay is obviously a more valuable piece than Sanchez or Zimmerman.
by mtalken on Jul 9, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would go for Zimmerman. I like Skip as a leadoff hitter.
Maybe skip goes to LF and then trade for Sanchez?
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zimmerman's going nowhere
neither is Dunn nor Willingham according to this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/07/AR2009070701614.html
Maybe we get Guzman or Belly-lard. Wish we’d taken a flyer on Milledge.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jul 8, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have seen no mention of Ryan Zimmerman being available.
I would love to have him as his contract is great, his defense is great, and his offense is good and improving.
Freddy Sanchez is a 31 year old middle infield journeyman who has put up seasons of 4.8 and 3.8 WAR, but I’ll admit, my argument against him is much weaker. Mostly I just don’t want to suffer the lineup and double-switch insanity that will ensue. His option will vest, and he will stick around for 2010, but that might not be terrible if he doesn’t fall off the map. He says he wants to stay in PIT, and we might be paying for a career year, but if we swap him into 2B and Skip into LF, the upgrade is basically the same.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a game last night
Wainwright threw a great game, even if TLR left him in too long. And I’m not even talking about the pitch count. His breaking ball had lost its sharpness and he looked fatigued in his delivery and with his location. I don’t know why TLR didn’t yank him after the 8th inning. Still, 8.1 IP, 9 Ks, and a mere 2 walks. Wonderful to see. I am thrilled that he has another start—against the Cubbies, no less—before the ASG.
How about Ludwick. He is heating up with the St. Louis weather (to put an overused baseballism to work). Look at his statistical simmering via Baseball Reference:
Last 28 days: .263 BA/ .352 OBP/ .425 SLG/ .777 OPS
Last 14 days: .275 BA/ .341 OBP/ .450 SLG/ .791 OPS
Last 7 days: .333 BA/ .400 OBP/ .500 SLG/ .900 OPS
I will predict that Ludwick will be hitting .260 by month’s end and, maybe, .275 by season’s end (?).
What a great night of baseball. Watching at a local pub, the Cubs were on right next to the Cards’ game. So, I watched Chicago go down 2-1 as we handled the Brewers rather convincingly, and with their Ace on the hill no less. We are no 2 games ahead of Milwaukee and 3 games ahead of Chicago.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 8, 2009 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Luddy is hitting .275 by seasons end
I have a feeling we will be in the playoffs. That would be outstanding!
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 8, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Care to make that an "if - then?"
/ couldn’t resist
by Ray Lankford on Jul 8, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One upside to the trade would be the ability to parody Young Guns the movie.
You paste the heads of our starters on the boys from the movie and have Halladay with a caption that reads…“I’ll be your Huckleberry”.
Young may be pushing it though…
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tombstone?
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 8, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 8, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brilliant performance...
by Kilmer IMO. The rest of the movie was pretty good, too.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jul 8, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My memory got all wet and bled together. Whoops.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd do it...but I am a sucker for great pitching...and its damned exciting.
I would trade Wallace as centerpiece in a trade for Halliday…I’d trade pretty much anyone in the farm…I’d prefer to keep wallace if we can avoid giving him away.. but that rotation would be amazing. We’d have a great shot at going to the WS barring any injuries and we wouldn’t be any worse off than this year if we got rid of wallace, If he goes to Phillies or Dodgers though, I don’t think we have a shot at WS maybe not even getting out of NLDS.
by ADMDrayson on Jul 8, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think we'd be tempting fate with such a rotation
carp’s arm would fall off due to what paletta would refer to as a “minor strain.” halladay would develop some sort of undiagnosable chronic illness that only affects him every fifth day. count it.
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 8, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Enjoyed the Title, RB.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 8, 2009 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One of my favorite movies all time
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 8, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I generally hate trade speculation
It tends to frustrate me, due to the ridiculous posts that over-value cardinals and undervalue non-cardinals. But a couple questions did come to mind. …
- Does the organization now consider Boog the long term answer at SS?
- If so, does Kozma have any real value as a trade chip?
by _pistol_ on Jul 8, 2009 1:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
trading kozma actually makes me really nervous.
boog could be the starting ss next year and probably should be. but he’s not 23. he’s going to be 30 soon. it would be a bad idea to anticipate he will fill that role for more than 2-3 years. if we trade kozma, we’re hoping niko puts it together fast, or we’re forced to find a ss on the open market again – which will be hard with money tied up in pujols and an extension for halladay.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Jackson...
was drafted this year…he may be ready in 2-3 years. Holding on to a guy because we may need him in 2-3 years is not a good approach IMO.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jul 8, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jackson
is probably ready to play the field right now but there’s nothing to indicate that he’ll ever hit at the major league level. He may be ready in 2-3 years but he may never make it either. He needs more than time.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Ryan Jackson
Luhnow said we have a guy who’s glove is as good as Ryan Jackson’s down in the DR Summer League.
His numbers right now are through the roof.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 8, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
i’m really really excited about him
wish we had more info about dsl, gcl, etc
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check out the
The Cardinal Nation for weekly DSL reports
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 8, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know much about the guy
but I have heard Luhnow mention Donovan Solano in multiple interviews as a SS to watch. Supposed an outstanding fielder currently holding his own at Memphis as a 21 year-old.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 8, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's nick stavinoha with some defensive skill.
he has about one walk for the season. doesn’t really project as a major leaguer with his bat.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point wasn't so much...
that Jackson could be ready by then, but more that a lot can change in 2-3 years. It could be Vasquez, some latin product, T-Greene or somebody whose not on the radar. I don’t want to make Kozma untouchable because we MIGHT need him in 2-3 years.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jul 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boog's only 27 this season
He’s not exactly ancient.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's why i said he had two-three years left. how many 31, 32 year old defense-first
SS are there? adam everett and . . . my point is that we can reasonably expect a drop off within a few years from him.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't let the possibility of not having a SS
in 3 years stop me from making this trade now. That’s a problem for another day.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 8, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not sure it's a deal breaker, but it gives me concern.
i’m all conflicted! oy!
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if that package could land Roy, then I say do it
Quality starting pitching is the most precious commodity in baseball. This guy is one of the best anywhere. Prospects are just prospects until they’re not. No one knows for sure that any of those names will work out long term in the big leagues. If you ask me the Blue Jays would be gambling more so than the Cards. To put it in poker terms, they’d be chasing a straight while giving the Cards a full house.
by Walking Underwear on Jul 8, 2009 1:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Actually giving us 4 aces. Halliday, Carp, Waino, and Pinata (this year)
by ADMDrayson on Jul 8, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went with the fullhouse as in
Aces over Kings
Hallady,Carpenter,Wainwright
Piniero,Lohse
by Walking Underwear on Jul 8, 2009 1:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
pineiro is pitching much better than wainwright this year.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh? Piniero? He is doing very well by his standards but pitching better than ADAM?
Is there a joke I missed somewhere?
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes. Pinata has the last laugh.
But he still won’t make the Puerto Rican team.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 8, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
Pineiro’s been one of the 7-8 best starters in the NL this season. He’s been better than Wainwright. He’s been better than at least 2-3 of the pitchers on the NL All Star team and, considering the number of innings pitched, he’s been better than Carp as well.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
[Piñeiro]'s been better than Carp as well
I’m gonna sit back and enjoy my drinks here in the twilight zone.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 8, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'll concede to the 4 of a kind
We all know 4 of a kind beats a full house
by Walking Underwear on Jul 8, 2009 2:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree...
Joel’s been very good, but not better than ADAM. He’s limited his long ball’s and walks (3 and 12) very well, which can’t be said for ADAM (12 and 45), but he’s averaged fewer innings per start, given up 1 less hit in 16 fewer innings, and struck out 43 compared to ADAM’s 110. Before ADAM’s last two starts you could easily say that Pineiro was the better pitcher, now it’s at best a draw, and Adams trending in a much better direction than Joel.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jul 8, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
adam's is the better pitcher
maybe the best pitcher on the staff, but stats don’t lie. joel is having a monster of a year
fip = joel 3.05; wainer 3.64
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carp has to be best pitcher on staff...his injury this year had nothing to do with his arm
and while with him we have to take into account those types of flukish injuries, he still absolutely dominates and is a great professional.
by ADMDrayson on Jul 8, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
carp is master and waino is padawan..
by ADMDrayson on Jul 8, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
obv
i just have a man crush on waino.
he’s going to win the cy. or at least deserve it before his career is over. and i like to think it’ll be better than carp’s ’05 campaign
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we compare...
the last month or month and a half?
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jul 8, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think all of this is at leat partially a semantics problem
With all the value stats available now I think terms like “better” are getting conflated with “valuable” and that can lead to problems. I will easily concede the notion that Piñeiro has been more valuable than Wainwright so far, and he has probably pitched better as a whole than Wainwright too.
Who is better right now? I’d go with Wainer probably. It remains to be seen who will be better and more valuable by year’s end.
I think it is obvious that Carpenter has pitched better than Piñeiro so far, but because of innings/missed time as mentioned above, Piñeiro has been more valuable.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
10 out of 10 times I would choose Wainwright to start a game over Piniero unless he has no right arm.
And then it would depend on how well Adam can throw with his left hand.
I am by no means rebuking Piniero. I think what he has done this year is awesome.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I would agree with you about starting Wainwright over Piñeiro
because Wainwright is clearly, overall, a better pitcher. Track record and talent and all that. But Piñeiro has been superior up to this point in the season.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed. kind of at least.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Compare
Pineiro — 3.05 FIP (5th in the NL)
Wainwright — 3.64 FIP (11th in the NL)
Pineiro — 24.4 RAR (6th in the NL)
Wainwright — 20.4 RAR (8th in the NL)
Pineiro — 2.7 WAR (6th)
Wainwright — 2.2 WAR (8th)
I, too, would rather have Wainwright going forward but the question posed was who has been better so far this season. It’s been Pineiro. At the end of the season it may well be Wainwright but that isn’t the case right now.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really am having flashbacks to the Mulder deal.
You don’t put all your $$$ into SP, its simply too risky due to injuries.
Lots of people here said exactly the same thing about how Mulder was a proven winner and an Ace. He was going to push us over the top. How did that turn out?
by DriverZn on Jul 8, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mulder
was showing some serious red flags before that trade and lots of people in Cardinal blogdom were quick to point it out.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 8, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay has been less than stellar in his last three starts
as well.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 8, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
6 innings 2 runs 7 Ks against the best offense in baseball I’d take. And the first start was a de-facto rehab start.
And Mulder’s 2nd half that year wasn’t quite “less than stellar”, it was nuclear meltdown.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 8, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off-setting Halladay
Assuming everyone maintains their current rate of play, off-setting Halladay’s 3.4 increase over Wellemeyer could be maintained by some shuffling, no?
If Skip were to maintain his OF defense of last year at -1.1 (which is better than the -12.4 he currently carries), he could return to LF and replace Ankiel, who is currently a -8.5 offensively and a 3.3 defensively for a WAR of 0.2. Skip, because of his defense at 2B is a replacement level player.
Removing Skip from 2B opens up a slot. An available 2B who would improve the team is Freddy Sanchez. The Giants are already interested in him and part of the reason he probably hasn’t been dealt is that he is currently dealing with back spasms. It isn’t considered an extremely serious condition as he is supposed to be back by this weekend. He has been a 2.4 WAR player at 2B this season. Replacing Skip with Freddy would obviously be an increase of 2.4.
The difference between Halladay and Wellemeyer has been 3.4. If Skip returns to LF and continues to hit, does anyone not think he would be worth a full win more than Ankiel has been this year? If wins are wins, moving Skip to LF and acquiring Sanchez would save the farm system and hopefully off-set the increase of Halladay over Wellemeyer.
Of course, none of this would matter because we all know that LaRussa wouldn’t move Skip to LF, bench Ankiel and more than likely Freddy Sanchez would see more time in LF and 3B than he would at 2B.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
quite reasonable,
but i am greedy and say we get both halladay and sanchez. that would really be great.
by Shi on Jul 8, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, I'm on board with this
I think you’ve brought it up once or twice before.
There’s just no reason to play Ankiel at this point.
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we get Sanchez,
part of the reason he probably hasn’t been dealt is that he is currently dealing with back spasms. It isn’t considered an extremely serious condition
he goes on the 60-day DL
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jul 8, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking he has his back removed
and replaced with titanium shelving.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more problem with this
is that LaRussa will likely chose to play Sanchez over Pujols if given the opportunity. And since he is the manager, he is given that opportunity EVERYDAY.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The lineups could just become insane with,
Sanchez, Schu, Thurston, and DeRo. Imagine the quadruple-switches.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry guys
Thurston, Joe .750 vs. Suppan.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 8, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
absolutely great post RB… Halladay/Carp/WW is overkill, the NL would be saying “oh, shit”
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
question
Could we beat the Dodgers with that?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 8, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
especially if it's in the first round of the playoffs, yes
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
with the playoffs crapshoot
Jason Marquis will end up shutting them down. Just watch.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 8, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs went into the postseason
last year w/ Zambrano, Harden, and Dempster and went 3 and out. There are no guarantees in the postseason.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
that is very true, but I think that Dempster and Zambrano are a little overrated (especially Dempster), and their offense didn’t have someone named Albert in it
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the GOBs
hate the Little Bears.
by santiagofish on Jul 8, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It had nothing to do with their pitching
The thing about the Cubs is you cannot forget there are multiple ways to fail. Pitching. Hitting. Defense.
You have to score a run to win.
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to soften the blow on the farm system
do you think Wallace, Jay, Samuel, and Kozma would get it done?
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So, something I've been wondering about that hasn't been discussed that much (that I've seen anyway)
is Luddy’s 2nd half prospects. Listening to the radio last night I didn’t realize at first that his homer was an opposite field shot. Given that, and the facts that it looked like a pretty solid one (i.e. not a lucky fly ball or something) and against Gallardo, I was very encouraged. Was it just a junky pitch that any respectable major leaguer would destroy?
What do you guys realistically expect from Ludwick in the second half? Could he knock out 15 more homers? 20 more? Could he salvage the season into something like his pre-season projections, or do much better than that? Obviously it would be really nice to have both Studwick and Colby Commander representing plus bats to put around Albert.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
NO MORE LUGGAGE.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 8, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's one for me to watch
if Luddy can post .850+ OPS, I’ll call him a success. This is slightly above his abbreviated career average.
I’m also curious about Welley’s start tonight. Hope he can continue from last week.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jul 8, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you mean a year-end OPS of .850?
Or .850 for the second half? I would be overjoyed with the former and pretty satisfied with the later, even, given how bad his slumping was.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe all this talk about Halladay in the works for STL will make Welley pitch like his career is on the line again
every game. Then its like acquiring an ace
by ADMDrayson on Jul 8, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do it.
its Roy Halladay! it gives STL a shot at the WS in each of the next two years. wallace can’t be untouchable, not when the chance to add a piece like this is available!
by TheFranchise9 on Jul 8, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he's not untouchable
but he’s not touchable for a move like this. halladay is not worth it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know how you can say that
The dude already has 3.4 wins, AND he’s been on the DL during that span, which takes away about 3 starts!
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
by Taskmaster on Jul 8, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because he's a rental
and about as expensive as a rental gets. and in an area of relative strength on our club
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check this out...
Even though he is expensive he is still a bargain. I personally think we could get an even better bargain simply by upgrading at 2B and sending skip to the OF, but Halladay is certainly worth Wallace.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can have any minor leauger
but wallace
his offensive ceiling probably tops out someone around hanley’s bat. high average and decent power. is 12 cheap years of that worth 1.5 of halladay? not a chance. i’m willing to overpay on other prospects, but no wallace
dj, descalso, kozma, lynn, reifer? that’s a huge payout and i do that before a package centered around wallace.
maybe i’m sipping the kool aid, but damn does it taste good
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess its a question of how hard we think we should discount future value
My discount rate is a little higher. Pass the kool-aid.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woah woah woah
12 cheap years of “that” implies 12 cheap years of your high average, decent power Hanley Ramirez bat.
Remember that 9 of those 12 years are other players, and when you’re talking about especially the 3rd and 4th prospects in this trade, they’re nowhere near that level of expected production.
Also, I’m sure there’s no hard definition on this, but I wouldn’t consider anyone that’s going to spring training the following year with the team to be a rental.
by mtalken on Jul 9, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's what i meant
assuming we buy out his arb years and sign him a 7-8 year deal that tops out at around 10-12mil
i know it wasn’t clear, but right now i consider hanley’s contract to be extremely sheap. same with longoria, zimmerman, pujols, etc
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 9, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i realize
i’m getting a little sensational on wallace here. i should prbably tune it down a notch
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 9, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
The bottom line is…
because he’s a rental and about as expensive as a rental gets. and in an area of relative strength on our club
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take a great player right now
over four “could be’s” any day. You’v e got to do what has to be done to get to and then through the playoffs. That’s what you hear every player manager and exec say in spring training that the goal is the WS. Nobody knows if Wallace is going to the HOF or the flophouse yet, nobody knows if Halladay’s arm will fall off when he gets off the plane. But I dont think that anyones counting on Wallace to do anything this year and “right now” is always the right time to play for the win. Wallace holds a lot more uncertainty than Roy does. We’ve moved a lot of different players in and out over the last few years and have managed to have a pretty good decade. If we can get one of the best players now for someone who may become one of the best players lets do it. We can kick ourselves in a few years when Wallace hits 45 homers.
"I don't take no anesthetic. Did Lincoln ask for any girlie gas when they blowed his head off?"
by boba schrute on Jul 17, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Erik from FR got a shout out on Bernie's show today
Bernie credited him with pointing out The Blue Jays were very interested in both Wallace and Kozman during their respective drafts but the Cards got them first
by mattyp on Jul 8, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kozman
I thought you were channeling Mike Shannon with that one.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 8, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am still waiting for the day he uses that for Albert
“well boys and girls, we have the Shoe-man leading off, followed by the Ras-man. Batting third is the…”
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 9, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmmmmmmm
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not much to say
I am ok with getting Halladay. that’s all I got, just excited I can post mobil!
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 8, 2009 2:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
are you buying gas right now?
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
$99.99
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh wait, that's something else isn't it
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Promotion fail.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 8, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume guys on the PTBNL list cannot be traded in another deal
correct?
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 8, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
maybe we could trick them
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Rule 5 influence?
Aren’t the Cardinals in danger of losing a ton of their prospects in the upcoming Rule 5 draft? If so, it could be that the front office sees this as a win-win scenario if they can work something out.
IF: StL is going to lose 2-3 good-to-great prospects in the Rule 5 anyway…
THEN: Why not send off an extra player or two and enjoy 18 months of an elite pitcher
Benefits:
- Playoff rotation of Halladay/Carp/Wainer
- Commitment to winning for fans and players
- Still have young, star player (Rasmus, assuming Walrus gets traded)
- Keeps Albert happy and surrounds him with even more elite talent to entice him into making St. Louis his permanent home
- Two compensation picks later when/if Halladay leaves
No one wants another Mulder scenario, but Halladay is far and away a better pitcher than Mulder. If I’m MO, I’d be willing to explore this, especially if i’m already having trouble keeping guys for the Rule 5.
(btw: I’m at work and can’t to the research needed to make this point. Feel free to debunk my rule 5 assumptions…)
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Jul 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If the deal was comprised of a bunch of guys likely to be lost to Rule 5
that’d be a no brainer. If adding 2 of them to replace a talent like Jones was an option, again, a no brainer.
I’d give up Wallace for Halladay. Obviously not straight up, but Wallace won’t have a position as long as Pujols is here…which should be until 2050.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully 2055
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell, it could be much longer than that
if he turns out to have the mutant healing factor like some people suspect.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
adamangtium?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Rec
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im rollin....
rec
"I've played a couple of hundred games of tic-tac-toe with my little daughter and she hasn't beaten me yet. I've always had to win. I've got to win." - Bob Gibson
by MUGATU on Jul 8, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where is that list from preseason...
that showed all of the players that will need to be protected from the Rule V draft? It’d be nice if we could ship off some of that talent rather than the young guys who have some years left in the system.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jul 8, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
quantity over quality
I like that idea
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way to get Halladay...
without mortgaging the future is to take Vernon Wells contract off their hands.
Come on DeWallet, you can’t take those millions with you!
by guayzimi on Jul 8, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was gonna say stick him in left field
but his stats aren’t very pretty.
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Alex Rios
No way the Cards take on Wells contract but maybe Rios could be added to the deal to lessen the prospect load.
by indakind on Jul 8, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...check out the kid on the right as Dempster breaks his toe...
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
wow
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding. He’s having a fun week at school, I bet.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 8, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...in July...
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he is homeschooled
and his mom failed him last year…he has to do home-summer-school…and his mom is a cards fan…so yeah, he’s having a fun week at school
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 8, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can tell a lot about a person from a photo.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Na he just attends...
…here. Must have been in town on a brief vaca.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sucks
I like how they punish the kids for the schools mistake. They shouldn’t give the school the option of making the days up. They should just charge them the $$$ and move on
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jul 8, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or whatever kids do when they're not in school
damned freeloadin’ kids…
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 8, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soto strained oblique in batting practice
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"batting practice" = taking huge bong rip
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
he was pretty mellow about the injury after the fact.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spants are you a girl?
just kiddin :)
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 8, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont see this as a huge blow to them
considering that soto wasnt hitting this year anyways
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 8, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was getting better though and he plays good defense
not a major blow, but certainly it doesn’t help them one bit
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he really picked it up in June
Which sucks. .916 OPS.
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try John Dowland's seven tears RB
They crafted a Melancholy Society and it had a huge following in the 16th century. It was thought that a full immersion was the only way to temper the harsh effects of what they determined was really a most blissful state. I think it works when I play them. Try just listening.
On Halladay, do you think you can win a world series scoring 1 run per game? Halladay is just going to give you another chance to win a 1 run game. Also, Carpenter is one of the greatest competitors I’ve ever seen. He is playing for one of the most peculiar baseball teams I’ve ever seen. We don’t need pitching. We need offense.
by OperaCard on Jul 8, 2009 3:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if you aren't the next incarnation of westcoastbirdwatcher
I will be surprised
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing westcoastie about this post imo
And I think it is getting really old with everyone bringing WCBW up every freaking time Opera posts. Didn’t you get mad last week when people were picking on you?
by OCCardsFan on Jul 8, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
maybe his/her posts are weirder than wcbw
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can have your opinion
and I can have mine
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My subjective opinion on matters is always right
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 8, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
now that
was awesome. I have a soft spot for weirdness and the absurd from out of the blue
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More Blue Jays News
According to Twitter:
The Blue Jays release BJ Ryan
"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 8, 2009 3:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
another reason why the best moves are sometimes the ones you don't make.
i’m glad we avoided both bj ryan and putz this offseason. both were names that got knocked around and both had flashing red sirens over their heads.
one of the many things i like about mo is that he didn’t make stupid moves this offseason just because the throngs were clamoring for them.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF happened to BJ Ryan huh?
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no idea - he was pretty solid last season
"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 8, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Velocity is way down
no control.
All work and no beer make Homer go something something.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Torn supraspinatus or labrum.
Just guessing.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could guess if you want
or you could maybe read up a little about him. He’s a pitcher that had Tommy John surgery who has never been quite the same since the procedure.
Maybe you’re right and he does have a problem with his shoulder; or maybe he’s just one of the unlucky 10-15% of Tommy John patients that DON’T recover and return to their old form. Velocity does dip when you can’t move your elbow properly, you can’t throw a slider if you can’t move your elbow properly either.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 8, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like you are just guessing too
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot to add the phrase "I'm guessing too."
It is, however, a fact that he has a long standing elbow problem-bad enough to require surgery. So you can’t ignore that as a source of the trouble. I guess that’s my guess.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 8, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be he altered mechanics to take stress off his elbow,
increased stress on his shoulder. Usually it goes the other way around, who knows.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kyle predicted this, right?
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 9, 2009 4:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awful, awful mechanics
Predicting injury based off of Biomechanics isn’t always prudent, but in this case it was clear that Ryan was a significant injury risk.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 9, 2009 4:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Derosa
I am going to be optimistic and say that he comes back and contributes this season. I also think that he is going to re-up with us as Tony will LOVE the guy…. Just from everything I have heard I think that there are some people ready to leap off the bridge about this.
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 8, 2009 3:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re-up wise, I'm kinda hoping TLR's opinion doesn't matter
‘cause he won’t be here.
But I know better. Sigh.
by sdrone on Jul 8, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whod you put in instead of tony? and they have to be reasonably available?
by ADMDrayson on Jul 8, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jose oquendo or manny acta would both be great options.
both probably count as available.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ted Simmons.
He’s had every role except manager. Imminently qualified, extremely intelligent. That’s my choice, and I’m sticking to it.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 8, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, can we make sure his wrist heals first, okay?
Let us see how he plays for us first, too.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 8, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I think we need a bat instead of going after Halladay if we land him I will scream like a little girl.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 8, 2009 4:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if we get Holliday, I think we should just start playing the best defensive lineup all the time
and be an all pitching and defense team that just happens to have Albert Pujols
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually meant Halladay
man I need glasses
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is this "Halliday" person?
Is he a combination of a top 3 in the majors quality pitcher with an overrated but still excellent outfielder? I’d like to have that guy!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 8, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay =/= Holliday
Big difference.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry about that heh
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let us just get both
so nobody gets confused.
And if we get either, their theme song must be MMJ’s “One Big Holiday” or else I quit.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 8, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Madonna's "Holiday?"
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh dear Lord
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kid, I kid.
That song is terrible.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like 80's Madonna, but that sound gives me fits.
Buckingham’s “Holiday Road” would be enjoyable, though, but there are times when I feel like I could run through a fucking brick wall after listening to “One Big Holiday” and I don’t even run very fast.
(The Who’s “Emininence Front” has the same effect on me.)
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 8, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is dawning of the rest of our lives...
..on Ho/alli/aday
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Reds through their first 80 games:
40-40 overall record
20-20 at home
20-20 on the road
36-36 in 9 inning games
4-4 in extra inning games
28-28 against righties
12-12 against lefties
by mysterui on Jul 8, 2009 4:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That's insane!
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
very odd
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
from PD comments
If the object is to win right now, how about this? Pujols and Ankiel for Halladay, Lyle Overbay and Vernon Wells.
Albert might welcome the chance to become the all-time greatest player in Canada, and the Cards’ rotation becomes suddenly dominant in the NL.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
my eyes hurt
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no "win right now" without Pujols
At least, the way the roster is currently constructed. Even if we got back what said poster is saying, it would still make us a worse team overall, IMO.
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who in the fuck said that?
What an unintelligent person.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 8, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd trade Wallace for Halladay.
Not sure what the rest of the package would be, but we’d have the best rotation since the mid 90s Braves.
But trading him aside, why not call Descalso and the Walrus up? I have thought all season that we shouldn’t see either until September, but Thurston shouldn’t be playing every day, and Ankiel is obviously lost.
They both turn 23 in the next few months, so they’re not extremely raw talents. Their MLE OPS’s both fall in the .675-.695 range (better than the current lines of Thursty and Ankiel), and in a lineup where they wouldn’t be considered the top producers, I would think both could be capable of an OPS greater than .700. It seems that the professional hitters sometimes perform better at the major league level, when they aren’t the lineup centerpiece and pitchers actually know where the ball is going.
Descalso would play his natural position of 2B, Skip moves to his natural LF (defensive upgrades at both positions), and Wallace plays 3B (slight downgrade from Thursty, I assume). Then Duncan can be your 4th OF/ pinch-hitter/ backup 1B, and DeRosa can be used wherever TLR wants him when he comes back. So your defense improves overall, helping the pitchers, and the lineup gains some upside.
I am a big Ankiel fan, but the guy needs a stint at AAA to regroup. Right now he looks as lost at the plate as he did on the mound that fateful day vs. the Mets.
by pitchingandefense on Jul 8, 2009 4:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
wallace might be ready
but i’d rather wait until september to know for sure. then we’re at least not burning and arb year.
descalso just made it to AAA. we don’t see him this year
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree
But we’re filling the lineup with two black holes each night, and this division is there for the taking. I’d risk an arb year for the chance of jumpstarting the bottom half of the lineup, and making a run during a superb season by El Hombre.
And at his age, Descalso should be capable of the transition from AA to the Majors, but you are probably right, we won’t see him til 2010.
by pitchingandefense on Jul 8, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace will have to be put
on the 40 man roster to be brought up this September. I really don’t think that is going to happen unless he really catches fire.
by ridgesee on Jul 8, 2009 5:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Which he has.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 8, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From a business sense though
It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to do that with the 40-man crunch we’re facing already.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 8, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But...
that could make him eligible for the post-season!
/pipe dream.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 8, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hope the Cardinals in general are eligible for the post season
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wallace
isn’t on the 40-man
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he could be.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 9, 2009 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay as Pujols bait
If the ultimate goal for the Cardinals franchise is to re-sign or extend Albert Pujols and Albert has stated that his choice will be based on the team that the Cardinals are able to put around him. Not that Pujols should be consulted on every transaction, but I would ask him if he would prefer Roy Halladay pitching every day for the next 1.5 years or Wallace hitting behind him for the next six (starting next season).
I think a push for a championship this year and next with Halladay is a greater incentive for Pujols to sign an extension.
Wallace + Kozma, the leftover of Todd and Samuel and another pitcher would be my offer. I think Daryl Jones has a future spot in the StL outfield.
by djsmokyc on Jul 8, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Halladay
can start every day, then hell yes we should get him.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should trade for Halladay and immediately sign a long-term extension,
of Albert Pujols.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 8, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the very least
The Morans bitching about Doing Something® would shut the fuck up.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 8, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way I would consider this deal
is if Albert Pujols was extended as part of the deal. It really doesn’t make any long-term sense to make the deal, so give me Albert long term and I will be content.
Does anybody see a reason to hold tightly to DJTools? If he really projects as a corner OF, then I don’t think he will provide enough offense to be that valuable of a player. I would sell high on him.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 8, 2009 5:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jones has dropped to 19th in the league in OBP
this while fighting an injury the last two weeks. He’s also dropped to 30th in wOBA, but again, he had a nose dive while playing injured. He just turned 22 two weeks ago.
I don’t know that he needs to provide that much power if he can provide good defense and a high OBP. Hitting out of the leadoff spot, his middling ISO but above average walk-rate makes him very valuable.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to have a speedy leadoff hitter with high OBP
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
but it sounds a lot like Skip Schumaker to me without the arm. Don’t get me wrong, I am not against the guy and I am aware of his tools. But he apparently doesn’t have elite speed, so his only likely skills are OBP and good defense. I don’t think that is all that rare a skillset unless you are talking about a CF or a MIF.
What type of injury is he fighting?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 8, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the Skip comparison
Still, that would make him an above average player who will be cost controlled, which is an amazingly valuable commodity.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 9, 2009 4:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah but Skip doesn't have all that great of OBP and probably isn't nearly as fast
Nasty like Nas, Batman combined with Method Man
G. Rap hydraulics, supersonics call me Shark Man
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 9, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tonight's lineup:
CARDINALS
Schumaker 2b
Rasmus cf
Pujols 1b
Ludwick rf
Duncan lf
Molina c
Thurston 3b
Wellemeyer p
Ryan ss
BREWERS:
Counsell 2b
Hardy ss
Braun lf
Fielder 1b
Catalanotto rf
Cameron cf
Gamel 3b
Kendall c
Suppan p
by santiagofish on Jul 8, 2009 6:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mmmm Rasmissle
TLR, doesn’t it feel good to have a regular #2 hitter and dominant defensive CFer?
It’s a crime that we have to wonder whether our 2nd best hitter and best defensive player is playing on a given day.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 8, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That might be the best lineup we can trot out there right now
Except the pitcher of course
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And 3B
Not sure why we bothered to call up Brian Barden.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Barden should play everyday for a while. At least you would get good defense and hopefully avoid baserunning gaffes. And maybe given some regular playing time his bat would come around. I don’t see any reason to keep trotting out Thurston merely because he stands on the correct side of the plate from which a hitter should have an advantage against a righthanded pitcher.
by OCCardsFan on Jul 8, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's my only complaint there, too.
fwiw, ba’s updated STL prospects list.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BB Against the RHP?
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not?
Barden OPS against RHP – .734
Thurston OPS against RHP – .639
And even if Barden couldn’t hit righties, I’d still rather have him out there for defense.
by OCCardsFan on Jul 8, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For what it's worth
Jim Callis of BA said Wallace, Jones and Kozma wouldn’t be enough for Halladay.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 8, 2009 6:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Then we shouldn't make the deal.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'd have to agree
to me, that’s a steep price.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
then what on earth would?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we have to throw in Duncan too
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what if we tell 'em ank will pitch?
by BirdsonFire on Jul 8, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that would work
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rosenthal on MLB Network says
The Blue Jays are also selling Alex Rios “aggressively” and would listen to offers for basically anyone, including Scott Rolen.
Anyone else on the Blue Jays we want? Alex Rios with his contract?
by mojowo11 on Jul 8, 2009 6:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd like Scott Rolen, please
Tony can shut up and deal with it.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Me, too.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can you imagine what Scott Rolen would look like in a Cardinals uniform?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been kinda
shocked they gave it away so fast. Especially to Tyler Greene.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 8, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he is from Jasper
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 8, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How good would this lineup look?
2B Skip – 0.0
CF Rasmus – 2.9
1B Pujols – 4.9
RF Ludwick – 0.4
3B Rolen – 2.6
C Molina – 1.8
LF Ankiel – 0.2
PITCHER
SS Ryan – 1.8
That lineup would be worth 14.8 runs right now and would obviously increase the overall WAR of the team to 12.1, putting us roughly around that of the Red Sox. Adding a player like Freddy Sanchez a long with that, moving Skip to LF and we’d be up in the Top 3 of 4 lineups in the league.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 8, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you sir
are a master of photoshop – it actually looks like Rolen WAS a cardinal…
by cdb on Jul 8, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was the smile on tony's face he had to photoshop on.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who's scott
and why do you want him rolling?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea
Their 2B.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 8, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like Marco Scutaro as a throw-in to a Halladay deal
Aaron Hill would also be pretty nice.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 8, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, yes, yes
Rios is a 4-5 WAR player, signed to the contract of a 3.5 WAR player.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 9, 2009 5:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just pwned a cubs fan who was whining about losing the series to the Braves
and claiming that the Cubs had better team pitching and batting average. Braves actually lead the Cubs in most offensive categories and team pitching
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cardinals hitting is pretty middle of the pack
we have the second best team WHIP in the majors and third best era (5th in fip)
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay over replacement
It just doesn’t make sense to me to acquire Halladay. Halladay would give us too much depth that we really don’t need. He would be replacing Wellemeyer which would be great for the regular season but would replacing either Pineiro or Lohse in the playoff’s. You don’t need 5 starters in the playoff’s. The difference between Halladay and Pineiro/Lohse does not equal Wallace/Kozma/PTBNL.
Halladay makes sense for a team that has a strong chance already to make the playoff’s and their biggest hole is a top line starter. We don’t have that hole right now with Carp/Waino/Pineiro/Lohse. It makes sense for a team with a number 3 starter that is really a #5 starter. Honestly the Phillies fit the bill here but I just don’t know their system well enough to know if they have what it takes to acquire him.`
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 8, 2009 6:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I’d be surprised if we make this trade unless they give us a good deal
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 8, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Replacing Pineiro or Lohse
w/ Roy Halladay in the playoffs doesn’t make any sense?
That’s a problem I’d like to have.
by chuckb on Jul 8, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You know,
While his value is high, I wouldn’t mind flipping Pineiro while his value is high. A three team trade, with us taking Halladay?
by Ray Lankford on Jul 8, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is ridiculous logic
Having strong starting pitching in the playoffs has been shown to be a strong predictor of success. Replacing Lohse or Pineiro, who are both projected to have FIP’s right around 4, with Halladay would be a huge upgrade. Not to mention the fact that Halladay would improve our chances of getting into the playoffs more than any other player out there.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 9, 2009 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
anyone know...
where to get the game on the internet (not mlb.tv). the game is blacked out on comcast in central illinois again today…
by njmcelh on Jul 8, 2009 7:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
there's at leas tno link up
for myp2p yet. so, looks like no
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 8, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tvants://list.tvants.com/tvants/?k=9b0ea351e7d84ad91f87a68bbb6c23d4
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 8, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
