And for my next trick...
by chuckb on Jul 30, 2009 2:00 AM EDT
in News
908 comments
| # of strikes | % looking | % swinging | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Reyes | 223 | 29 | 19 |
| Boggs | 231 | 26 | 19 |
| Miller | 241 | 29 | 17 |
| Wainwright | 1419 | 31 | 15 |
| Carp | 895 | 28 | 15 |
| Motte | 392 | 27 | 15 |
| Franklin | 368 | 32 | 14 |
| Wellemeyer | 1096 | 26 | 13 |
| Lohse | 751 | 32 | 12 |
| McClellan | 415 | 28 | 12 |
| Pineiro | 1164 | 29 | 9 |
It’s something that Pineiro, w/ his success this year, is at the bottom of this list but you should also notice that only Wainwright’s thrown more strikes this year and, in fact, he’s averaging only 3.43 P/PA – lowest on the team outside of Brad Thompson. To me, Boggs’ appearance at the top of this list is notable in light of Wellemeyer’s struggles this year. To me, despite the fact that he’s thrown just 400 pitches so far this year, his 19% swing and miss rate is an indicator that he can get big league hitters out. I’m not Tony, of course, but I’d trust him more than Wellemeyer every 5 days. (I’m posting this Sunday night as I’m heading to St. Louis to watch the series against the Dodgers so hopefully by Thursday, Boggs will have replaced Wellemeyer in the rotation.)
Next, we all know that "there is no such thing as ‘personal catchers’ w/ Tony so you can dismiss this next bit of information as completely irrelevant.
Pitchers’ ERAs by catcher in 2009:
| era | |
|---|---|
| Yadi | 3.71 |
| LaRue | 4.44 |
Yadi’s clearly the better catcher, right? Pitchers perform better w/ Yadi behind the plate, correct? Now try this one on for size:
Games started by pitcher w/ Jason LaRue behind the plate:
| # of starts | |
|---|---|
| Wellemeyer | 8 |
| Thompson | 2 |
| Lohse | 2 |
| Pineiro | 1 |
| Boggs | 1 |
Maybe we can’t tell much from catchers’ ERAs after all.
Finally, one of the unheralded elements of baseball is a player’s ability to run the bases. Generally speaking, faster players are better base runners than slower runners, ceteris paribus, b/c their speed allows them to take the extra base more often. They also steal more bases than slower base runners, by and large. So let’s take a look at some of the Cards’ base running stats for the season so far.
First of all, BP – which most agree does base running stats as well or better than anyone – has the Cards as the majors’ 9th best base running team so far this season and 5th in the NL. They have us as adding 2.56 runs as a team just by being able to take the extra base and steal bases well. Now, it’s important to understand that that’s only a quarter of 1 win but it translates to about 4 runs over a full season. So while base running matters, the difference between the majors’ best base running team and the worst is about 3 – 3.5 wins over a full season. Last year the difference was 33 runs – about 3 1/3 wins.
As far as our best and worst base runners go, it should come as no surprise that Yadi and Joe Thurston are at the bottom – Yadi b/c he’s slower than D.C. rush hour traffic and Thurston b/c it seems like every time he reaches base he’s pulling a Suppan-in-the-’04-Series base running snafu. At the top of the list is that guy who still has a lot to learn about playing this darn game. EQBRR is Equivalent Base Running Runs which is equal, essentially, by players advancing on hits, ground outs, fly balls, as well as stolen bases. Lugo’s, DeRosa’s, and Holliday’s numbers include their numbers from their previous teams.
| EQBRR | |
|---|---|
| Rasmus | 2.38 |
| Ludwick | 1.56 |
| Schumaker | 1.47 |
| Ryan | 1.00 |
| Lugo | 0.00 |
| Ankiel | -0.09 |
| Pujols | -0.58 |
| DeRosa | -0.68 |
| Holliday | -0.74 |
| Thurston | -1.07 |
| Yadi | -2.84 |
Rasmus’s numbers place him 25th in the majors while Yadi’s place him (gulp!) 687th. Many of you are saying, "Bullshit! Albert’s one of the best base runners in baseball. Proof is in the fact that he leads the team in steals!" My response to that is that Albert does the best he can w/ what he’s got but he’s just not very fast. He does run the bases extremely well but he also has physical limitations that don’t allow him to take as many extra bases as many other players take. Albert is actually least effective in taking the extra base on hits and on what BP calls "Equivalent Other Advancement Runs" which, I suppose, means advancing on wild pitches, passed balls, taking the extra base on overthrows or going to third on bad pickoffs at 1st…stuff like that. Again, as you see, the difference between the team’s best and the team’s worst nearly 2/3 of the way through the season is about half a win but, as close as this division is and will likely be the rest of the way, every half a win counts.
0 recs |
908 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
FR.net is broken
it won’t allow me to post the DFR.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As of 8AM I can
and I got there last night around midnight too
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
by StLHugo on Jul 30, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can get on
but i posted yesterday at like 5:00 and that is the last comment made…so something appears amiss
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 30, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ththank you for making this, because no matter what I feel like Pineiro doesn't get enough
attention. Awesome game for him. And I’ll repost what I said in the previous thread: We’ve been playing the Phils and Dodgers, the Flubs have been playing the Reds and Astros. Wait til August and Sept, we’lll surge ahead (I hope)
by mattyp on Jul 30, 2009 2:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What this Chart Tells me...
…is that Boggs should be making the start over Welly, but not overwhelmingly so. Both of them have the moost trouble locating their strikes (26% looking) – the difference being that Boggs, so far, is making a full 6% moore batters swing and miss. So, their cowmands are about the same, but Boggs has the better stuff. You’ll note that while both Lohse and Piniero have lower swinging miss%, they spot their strikes much better than Welly.
Time for Welly to moove to the ’pen and give Boggsy a shot – or, trade for Johnathan Sanchez!
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 30, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about breaking down catchers ERA by starter
like YADI WELLE _
LaRue Welle ______
and so on
Chuck Norris doesn't need a bat.
he just roundhouse kicks the ball out of the park.
by bearcatcardfan on Jul 30, 2009 2:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Definition
of a meaningless stat to me is catchers ERA. What was the guys name in Atlanta that was Maddux’s “personal” catcher? I bet his catcher’s ERA was low but so would mine if I caught Maddux. Catchers ERA is just blaming the pitchers results on the wrong person. I remember reading a quote from Bob Gibson that he reportedly said to McCarver that went along the lines of “The only thing you know about pitching is that you can’t hit it.”
And in almost every baseball game I watch I see the catcher look into the dugout, at times, before calling a pitch. Now maybe the coaches are flashing defensive alignments or maybe the dugout is calling for certain pitches.
The problem to me really is that we seem to have only have silly stats like passed balls to judge a catcher’s defense and things like catchers ERA are just stabs in the dark.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Jul 30, 2009 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
some folks have tried WOWY studies I think
but realistically the sample sizes are probably always going to be too small.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting stuff. first i would like to say
WOOOOOOOooOOOOOooooooOOOooOO!
That game was epic. Like “crime and punishment” epic but it ended with a walk off single and not (SPOILER) in a Russian penal colony.
There was no way for chuck to know this when he published today’s fanpost, of course.
A lot of people are calling into work tomorrow, I think.
Interesting stuff on the swinging strikes.have any sites run these distributions by pitch type? – it would be interesting to see if a particular pitcher’s slider gets a lot of swinging strikes or his fastball gets a lot of called strikes.
On the baserunning numbers, are those for the whole season or just time with the cards (in the case of holliday, for instance)?
Also, streaks and slumps are mostly ephemera. Last nights game should be an object lesson for those who distrust the stats.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 2:17 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
well, like crime and punishment
it did end /. finding god (hawksworth’s PG interview) but nevertheless I’ve never considered the epilogue a real part of the book.. Anyway, you’re on point w/ thew calling into work thing
by mattyp on Jul 30, 2009 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what is the "work" you speak of?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Jul 30, 2009 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cards played nine innings while I was asleep last night
(fell asleep around 9) and I still called in late to work.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 30, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
chuck, i know you're probaby in bed right now, and therefore not aware of tonights events
but you have no idea how right you are about thurston. no freaking idea.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Jul 30, 2009 2:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what did he write? I'm sure, given the pathetic state of my life, that I've read it...just need a reminder
by mattyp on Jul 30, 2009 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
uh, look up?
“As far as our best and worst base runners go, it should come as no surprise that Yadi and Joe Thurston are at the bottom – Yadi b/c he’s slower than D.C. rush hour traffic and Thurston b/c it seems like every time he reaches base he’s pulling a Suppan-in-the-’04-Series base running snafu.”
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Jul 30, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Above, my friend. Above.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Jul 30, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
EXACTLY
I was gonna post about this. My gob how is THurston not in the infamous TLR doghouse?
A baserunning gaffe IN THE 12TH INNING!
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good thing we won that game,
making the latest in the Joe Thurston Signature Series™ Baserunning F**K-Ups a merely amusing anecdote.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Signature Series DVD coming soon!
Help coach your Little Leaguer on what not to do!
by OldieWan on Jul 30, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if his EQBRR got much worse after last night?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 30, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hope thurston enjoys memphis
cause no way he sticks on this roster once they are forced to activate khalil or glaus. i will eat my hat if he does.
by lopey986 on Jul 30, 2009 2:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is the box score of the Pirates/Cardinals game from April 7th:
Of the Pirate position players, 6 of the 8 have been traded, the starting pitcher has been traded, and one of the 3 relievers has been traded.
That’s crazy to me, even for the Pirates.
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 30, 2009 2:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think they've got decent value for them all, though
with the possible exception of McClouth.
I think they won the trade with the Nats (at least, they traded low ceiling, average talent for two guys with potential to be above average, which is the way they need to be going) and it looks like they got quite a lot back from Seattle in the Snell/Wilson trade. Not sure where Clement fits in their team (maybe long-term to take over from LaRoche at 1B?) but they got some long-term pitching back (three C/B prospects), and Wilson wasn’t really worth anything to them.
I’m guessing Freddy Sanchez could be gone soon, too. I’m still of the opinion that Huntington is trading/drafting too many low-ceiling “kinda average” guys, instead of taking the risks on high-ceiling, high-risk talent that they need to to get out of the NLC basement, but at last they’re moving in the right direction.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're going to suck something rotten next year though...
I can see them breaking 100 losses in 2010.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 5:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
from McCovey chronicles re:Sanchez trade
Dammit. I think that, other than Alderson’s value as a trade chip being totally undersold, the thing that makes me the angriest right now is that I’m almost certain that the words “.300 hitter” kept rattling around in Brian Sabean’s brain. “Can I really pass up a .300 hitter? For a pitching prospect? I mean, the pitching is strong right now, and there’s only one .300 hitter on the team right now. Another .300 hitter would be worth, like, five more wins, at least.” Using batting average to evaluate the worth of a hitter is like using an Apple II+ to do your taxes, and I’m almost sure it’s going on in the Giants’ front office. Just a guess, of course, but it’s not as if there’s any evidence to the contrary.
I think he’s probably right….
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing Freddy Sanchez could be gone soon, too
or, indeed, now. Man, is that a great trade for the Pirates. And they get their new first baseman too. That could be the best trade anyone’s made this season. Just a hands-down win there.
How the fuck does Sabean still have a job….
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 5:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don't have Laroche at 1B anymore
They traded him to the Red Sox. Clement came up as a catcher, so it’s possible they’ll be moving him back there, although they have good catching in the majors and in the pipeline, so I really don’t know. Not sure how I feel about their deal with the Nats, if you believe prospect evaluators it seems like Hernandez, Milledge, and McCutchen are all pretty similar players that play the same position, center field. Not sure what you do with three centerfielders if 2 of them aren’t Jim Edmonds and 2004 Andruw Jones — guys who have the power numbers to be above average players at the corner outfield spots.
Sanchez was traded to the Giants yesterday for a B+ pitching prospect.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don’t have Laroche at 1B anymore
They traded him to the Red Sox.
ermmmmm, i know…. Hence….
not sure where Clement fits in their team (maybe long-term to take over from LaRoche at 1B?)
re: The Pittsburgh CF guys, I think Milledge could play a corner spot. Gorkys is still a couple of years away and might never develop enough of a bat to be a legitimate MLBer in my view, but yeah he’s definitely a CF. I suppose they trade McCutcheon in 2 years when Gorkys is knocking on the door (and it’s possible Milledge just flames out and becomes a AAAA player anyway).
Sanchez was traded to the Giants yesterday for a B+ pitching prospect.
ermmmm…. again, I know, hence….
from McCovey chronicles re:Sanchez trade
Dammit. I think that, other than Alderson’s value as a trade chip being totally undersold, the thing that makes me the angriest right now is that I’m almost certain that the words ".300 hitter" kept rattling around in Brian Sabean’s brain. "Can I really pass up a .300 hitter? For a pitching prospect? I mean, the pitching is strong right now, and there’s only one .300 hitter on the team right now. Another .300 hitter would be worth, like, five more wins, at least." Using batting average to evaluate the worth of a hitter is like using an Apple II+ to do your taxes, and I’m almost sure it’s going on in the Giants’ front office. Just a guess, of course, but it’s not as if there’s any evidence to the contrary.
I think he’s probably right….
Your reading comprehension sucks ;-).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops...
I just responded to your first comment, instead of reading through that whole thread. My bad.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 centerfielders in the outfield makes for a great defense
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I was thinking
You would have almost no holes unless a ball was misplayed.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 30, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure it would...
but again, you’re going to have trouble scoring runs with a bunch of slappy .280 hitters in the outfield unless your infield is filled with a ton of sluggers. Perhaps that’s their plan, but isn’t infield defense a whole lot more important than outfield defense?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Infielders get more chances and so have more of a chance to limit opponent BABIP, however outfielders have more impact on opponent SLG%.
Anyway, as long as your outfield is talented and cost-controlled, does it really matter if they are offensive or defensive players? Defense is undervalued and teams like TB and Seattle have gotten a ton of surplus value out of their plus defensive outfielders. People like Adam Dunn and Jack Cust are the obvious examples here, so limited defensively that they end up giving a substantial amount of that offense right back.
Obviously the best situation is to have plus defenders with good bats like Ryan Ludwick, Matt Holliday, and (eventually) Colby Rasmus. Not every team has this option, but Milledge and McCutcheon are also not Juan-Pierre clones- they both have pretty substantial offensive upside. I hope we don’t have to start really hating Neal Huntington in the near future.
15=/=25
by hazel on Jul 30, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
la roche long gone
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jul 30, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I KNOW
ffs… Is that not implicit in the OP? I see it could be construed otherwise…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know why people are having problems...
Not sure where Clement fits in their team (maybe long-term to take over from LaRoche at 1B?)
…seems pretty unambiguous to me
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 30, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Felonius
It seems like you’re saying “he could be a long term takeover for LaRoche at 1B” which implies that LaRoche is still at 1B. Otherwise why wouldn’t he just take over first right now? See what I mean?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I see that.
I actually kinda thought that myself when I wrote it, but as LaRoche had been traded I didn’t think anyone would read it that way. I suppose implicit in the statement is that someone HAS to take over at 1B from LaRoche (i.e. he’s not there anymore) but yes, I can see that I was probably a bit ambiguous.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
amazing,
usually baseball teams this bad don’t have so many desirable parts. Why can’t they win more if they have so many players that teams covet?
by cdb on Jul 30, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
May be a case of the whole not equalling the sum of the parts
Manager not doing a good enough job, people not wanting to play there, people not wanting to play with so and so… take your pick. But I have thought about that many times over the years, like Montreal used to be, and San Diego to an extent, they always have really good young players that end up going elswhere.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 30, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a decent question - what moves do you
Make now? We still have thompson ready,yes? I think stav and thurston should be demoted/released just on principle. We need a pitcher or so. Boggs has to come up for his welly-substitution. Who else do we even have? Walters? Scherer is on the 40-man, so if you just need a warm body,he’s a possibility. Kinney was sent down too recently to come back up, iirc.
I’d like to see boggs and at least jay come up. Do we need another pitcher too?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 2:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
i think...
… it’s really a crunch for just one or two games. Franklin hasn’t been over-used, Thompson can pitch as much as is necessary, and Motte probably isn’t over-stretched either. after a game or two Hawksworth is ready again, as is Mac. so we’re probably okay.
but if you think you need to, send down Thursty for Walters.
by kindred on Jul 30, 2009 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my thought
motte is good for a single game in a series, beyond that he only throws a fastball everytime im able to watch a cards game here in KC and if he goes in a 2nd game usually gets lit up. I do think Motte will be good soon, but man he is inconsistent right now
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jul 30, 2009 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of the reasons I was really annoyed when TLR put him in to a meaningless 9th inning the other day
I guess you can argue he was letting him get some confidence back, but really, Hawksworth/Thompson/whoever couldn’t hold a 10-run lead??? I’m not sure they should be professional pitchers, then…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he barely threw a fastball last night
well he threw this low 90s high 80s thing that got registered as a fastball, but nothing higher than 93 that I saw and lots of off speed stuff
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
by StLHugo on Jul 30, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm of the opinion
that Motte was throwing a “cutter” (rather than his four-seamer) last night; he struck out the O-Dog with a 94/95 MPH heater above the letters.
Maybe he can’t throw 95+ “gas” on consecutive days; maybe he knew he didn’t have his best “heater” warming up in the ‘pen, and adjusted accordingly; or maybe he’s trying for more movement, since he’s been burned even with his “flat” 97 MPH fastball.
As always, I Could Be Wrong!™
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra
by The Ol Goaler on Jul 30, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FINALLY
The 12th of the year where the Cards made up a one-run deficit.
But the best and most entertaining game of the year. Wow. Ludwick tying it up, Manny getting tagged out, Thurston failing to identify basic rules of the game, Lugo and Derosa choking…and Pujols with the line drive.
by olddomination on Jul 30, 2009 2:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would have pitched to Albert, too...
He’s been struggling. Holliday hasn’t…
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 30, 2009 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weaver made him look silly in his previous at bat
I definitely pitch to Albert there.
"I think he's the best hitter of all time. I think there has never been a better hitter than him. And I know I didn't see them all, but I just don't think there could be." - Adam Wainwright on The Mang
by bmorgan on Jul 30, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good question - not a fan of walking alber
But the ibb made sense. A run wins the game, first and third.
Walking albert gives you a force at any base. It also lets you pitch to holliday – no piece of cake, but not the best hitter in the game.
Two thoughts; maybe torre as a matter of pride wanted to challenge pujols; or maybe he believes in the hot bat myth and knew albert was 4 for 52 or whatever his slump was.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 2:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It was 1st and 2nd...right?
If I’m correct, then IBB Pujols puts the winning run 90 ft away and you don’t do that.
by stlfan on Jul 30, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was still Weaver up, though
didn’t he already beat Albert once? I mean, he wasn’t with us for too long, but I somehow doubt Jeff Weaver is intimidated.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
Torre, as an Italian, manages by emotional hunches.’’
I guess as someone who single-handedly lost three world series titles by incompetence, this one game was chicken-feed for torre to lose.
by olddomination on Jul 30, 2009 3:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is the final version of the VEB logo
submitted for all approval:
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2009 3:22 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
The site would look like this
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2009 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i prefer "thro moar sinkurs!!!1!"
But great work, hl.
I can’t reach fr either. Not sure what’s up.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 3:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I did too
but you can’t really read it when shrunk down.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2009 4:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you can't have both on it?
bummer
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Jul 30, 2009 6:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe it's just me
I’d make the banner straighter and put it above the arch. It’s breaking up the line of the arch. And it makes the cardinal look like it’s laboring and about to call the Humane Society.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
two thumbs up for the stache
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cudn't We...
…sneak a cow in there somewhere??
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 30, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can never "sneak" a cow in, anywhere
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps you're thinking of an African redbird
The average air speed of an American redbird would not keep a minimum 30 pound banner flying straight.
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
supposing two cardinals carried it together?
but seriously, it would look better next to the top white banner. and perhaps be more pleasing to certain robot’s obsessive tendencies.
and there’d be room for the giant eye if preferred.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are the banner and mustache temporary?
As in, the words “Viva El Birdos,” the Arch and building are all staples, then we can add temporary things like the mustache if we want?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 30, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only thought would be
- can we continue to incorporate the original VEB bird logo somehow…
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
THAT IS AWESOME.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 5:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i miss the eye
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jul 30, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have to ask
Where did this saying come from? I’ve heard it quite a bit around here lately and I’ve always wondered how it got started.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 30, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Getting [Insert Injured Player Here] back is like making that big mid-season trade for an All-Star...
“Only without giving anything up.”
“You know Dan, it really is!”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Dan" as in Dan McLaughlin and Al Hrabosky?
St. Louis’ own Miller and Morgan? Here’s an interesting question — who’s worse: Hrabosky or Morgan?
For me its Morgan hands down, but I can’t tell if its just because I’ve grown up with Hrabosky and learned to tolerate his schtick without realizing it.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 30, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why is this not green, yet?
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 30, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
can this be
a late entry into the T-shirt contest?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jul 30, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It should be automatic
use the existing red shirt, just replace the logo.
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take out the banner
Good logos aren’t super-busy, and there’s a lot going on there. Just the wrods, the arch, the dome, and the stache is more than enough.
by mojowo11 on Jul 30, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this idea.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by ilrosso on Jul 30, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It also allows you to crop out some of the black at the top
Therefore making the words more prominent, which I think they should be if it’s going to be the image everyone sees at the top of the blog.
by mojowo11 on Jul 30, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Banner allows new sayings, slogans and such to be put in it
other blogs change things like that from time to time.
And if I crop out the black, the entire perspective of the image will have to be stretched.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
beautiful
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
by tgreenfield on Jul 30, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This bums me out.....
frickin work computer is blocking images, and I cannot see it.
Philles announcers about Toronto:
"Well they go out West after this series, this weekend, against the Tampa Bay Rays"
by RiverRat on Jul 30, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might have hated the Holliday trade,
but jesus christ I’m glad we aren’t the giants.
15=/=25
by hazel on Jul 30, 2009 3:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
periodically mo just needs to call
Sabean and say “barden for bumgarner? Ok, hard bargain – tyler greene AND barden for bumgarner” and just see if he catches him while he’s high.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 3:58 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
talking head on ESPN
think it was gammons “sabean knows what he is doing out in San Fran and rarely makes a mistake.”
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Jul 30, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dodger's Blog was excited that they had 1,862 comments in their game thread...
weak… what did we end up having?
x>4000?
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 3:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
AND we're in the Central time zone...
By the way, I saw today that when Matt Cain’s name came up, you mentioned playing against Houston in regionals. I went to Houston, where did you go?
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 30, 2009 3:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bolton
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My cousin went to Bolton
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
year?
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2002
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 30, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably knew them then.. name?
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Emily Garrett
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 30, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I knew her
she was friends with one of my ex’s
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 30, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Who was your ex? I know some of her friends.
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 30, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What year did you graduate?
I know several people from Bolton…
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
03
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, enough of the
“sdrone is old” thread.
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My cousin graduated in 2004...
Zach Apel?
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 30, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chuck (or whoever)...
… i’m wondering what your table is really telling us. while it’s certainly true that one mark of a good pitcher is his ability to generate swinging strikes, that isn’t the only or even most important measure. after all, some pitchers like Piniero (this year) aren’t really trying to generate very many swinging strikes unless they have to. Franklin is another case. meanwhile, Welley and Motte are trying to get as many whiffs as they can, but are giving up a lot of BB and XBH in the process. so if the job of the pitcher is to get outs however they can, and if there is trade-off for non-elite pitchers b/t getting whiffs and yielding BBs and XBH, then why is looking at % of swinging strikes an appropriate way to measure talent or results?
just looking at the table you posted and comparing to other metrics like FIP doesn’t lead me to believe that there is necessarily a correlation b/t swinging strikes and being a good pitcher overall, at least on this year’s team.
am i wrong?
by kindred on Jul 30, 2009 4:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The ability to generate swinging strikes is an indication of how good a pitchers 'stuff' is.
But it says nothing about control or what happens when they are put into play. All things being equal more swinging misses is better. However, in the cases you point out all is not equal.
I think if you combined swing and miss % with GB% and BB/9 you would have a good rough indication of how good a pitcher is.
by DriverZn on Jul 30, 2009 5:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Swinging strike are by far the best you can do as a pitcher
Because it’s impossible for anything bad to happen when you do it. Guys like Pineiro have to get lucky (or not unlucky) to be really good, because so many balls are put in player.
Also, the leaders in swinging strikes this year, among guys with at least 300 xOuts (which is like 100 innings):
1) Javier Vazquez
2) Francisco Liriano
3) Felix Hernandez
4) Max Sherzer
5) Johan Santana
6) Dan Haren
7) Justin Verlander
8) Cole Hamels
9) Chad Billingsly
10) Ryan Dempster
And guys like Grienke, Halladay and Lincecum are all in the top 20.
The bottom 10 among qualifiers:
1) Livan Hernandez
2) John Lannan
3) Derek Lowe
4) Mike Pelfrey
5) Brad Penny (?)
6) Nick Blackburn
7) Bronson Arroyo
8) Jo-el
9) Jamie Moyer
10) Jeremy Guthrie
I think you can tell which list is better. Only Pineiro and Lowe have FIPs under 4, and they are both extreme groundballers.
Also, I think swinging strike rate has like a .80 correlation to strikeout rate, but don’t quote me on that.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i recognized...
… and recognize that the best pitchers will be able to get a lot of swinging misses. as i said above:
so if the job of the pitcher is to get outs however they can, and if there is trade-off for non-elite pitchers b/t getting whiffs and yielding BBs and XBH, then why is looking at % of swinging strikes an appropriate way to measure talent or results?
the key there is “non-elite pitchers”. i’m not concerned with the outliers in the tails of the distribution; i’m concerned with the other 95% of the distribution, the “fat middle”.
what i’m really driving at is this: should Piniero really be trying to miss more bats? that’s not what he does well. what he does well is not BB anybody and suppress XBH by preventing hard contact. sure, he’ll give up some ground ball singles here and there, but as long as he isn’t walking anybody or giving up XBH then it’s hard to get hurt too badly by singles. conversely, Motte and Reyes and Welly miss a lot of bats, but also BB a bunch, give up a lot of XBH, and have high FIPs and ERAs.
so yeah: the best pitchers will have lots of strikeouts and miss tons of bats. and the worst pitchers will probably not miss many bats. but for everybody that lives in the fat middle this seems like a misleading statistic.
by kindred on Jul 30, 2009 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, obviously there are more things that a pitcher can do
However, in my opinion, a swinging strike is the most important.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, here is tRA by Swinging Strikes scatter plot
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, I may be wrong
Of course, given that strikeouts are only one part, that’s not suprising. Here is the plot of Swinging Strike rate vs. K rate:
That’s a R of .790, which is about what I quoted. That means that if you can get swinging strikes, you can get strikeouts, which are obviously very important.
I wonder which is the most meaningful stat overall though.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW, sorry for picturizing this page
Also, statcorner is awesome.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Jo-el had a season-high (7) Ks last night
He gave up 5 ERs this month, 1.22 ERA and only 3 wins!
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jul 30, 2009 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait...
… so taken together these data indicate that if you can get swinging strikes then you can get strikeouts, but if you get swinging strikes then you are a less effective pitcher (by tRA). therefore, swinging strikes are bad. and by the transitive property, strikeouts are also bad.
something there does not compute.
by kindred on Jul 30, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not what it means
Correlation is the percentage that is explained. Meaning that tRA is explained ~35% by swinging strike rate.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, what?
Lower tRA is better. As swinging strike % increases, tRA decreases, and as swinging strikes increase, Ks increase. So therefore as Ks increase, tRA decreases. This is a good thing.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 30, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is right...
… i shouldn’t try to read graphs after drinking all night. my bad.
the correlation is still pretty weak, tho.
by kindred on Jul 30, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed, too, the weaker correlation
that is on the swinging strikes/tRA graph. So, getting swinging strikes has a stronger correlation with strikeout rate than it does with improved tRA. Not suprising, really, but it does show that there are other ways to be successful than just getting swinging strikes.
by ArkansasTravs on Jul 30, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
R2
I am no stat guy but I thought a low r2 like that meant there was no predictive value between the two. Is that what are are saying with this plot?
But when I say I’m no stat guy I really, really mean it.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Jul 30, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, basically
r close to 1 = perfect correlation/predictive value
close to 0 = no correlation/predictive value.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
However, a .125 R^2 is the same as a .35 correlation, so it isn’t that bad when you thing about it. It’s basically saying that swinging strike rate accounts for 35% of the performance off pitchers. I would bet that is the highest correlated skill that a pitcher has.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice post, chuck
I do slightly take issue with:
Many of you are saying, “Bullshit! Albert’s one of the best base runners in baseball. Proof is in the fact that he leads the team in steals!” My response to that is that Albert does the best he can w/ what he’s got but he’s just not very fast.
I’ve never really thought albert is an especially good baserunner. He makes a lot of stupid outs on the basepaths (well, maybe not that many in % terms, but he’s ON the basepaths so much that he makes a couple of boneheaded ones a year) – case in point being that abysmal single to CF on Sunday (I think it was Sunday – first game of this series, anyhow) when he ran for a double and got thrown out by about 30 feet. If Thurston had done that, the lynch mob would probably be out.
He doesn’t have a great stealing success rate either. He does make great, aggressive plays on the bases but IMO he’s always made a lot of outs, some of them rather foolish, and I’ve always thought he grades out as a kinda below-average baserunner, knowing how bad outs made on the bases actually are…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 5:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
I don’t think he’s slow (though he’s certainly not fast), but his over-aggressiveness on the bases is what hurts. But you sort of excuse them more than a guy like Thurston, because for one, Albert is on base close to 50% of the time, a good 15% more than Thurston probably. And you excuse good players more than marginal ones.
by DiscoJer on Jul 30, 2009 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really liked the idea of "baseball capital" that somebody else brought up
Albert and Yadier have a lot of it; Thurston does not
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 30, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd bet ...
that he makes up for those “bad outs” in defensive mistakes by the other team by that aggressiveness. There probably isn’t statistical data out there for it, but it would be an interesting study to see how many more extra bases he gets than others based on his aggressiveness. I would guess that better than once a week he gets an extra base that he wouldn’t have gotten based on his speed except for his aggressiveness. I would also be interested in trying to quantify the number of times that he draws the attention of the defense to allow another runner to advance.
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he might be spoiled
It keeps working against the Cubs.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the game (5 hours), I said screw it and decided to do an all-nighter
might be regretting that decision around noon
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
by The_teague on Jul 30, 2009 6:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
triple that mother at around 5pm to get through the game tonight
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Jul 30, 2009 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its noon and I'm still up fellas....UGH....
I think im going to bed.
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
by The_teague on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jc!
you deserve a medal
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hah!
I still haven’t been to bed. ‘course I listened to the extra innings while driving 100 miles to join my daughter who took her son into the ER thinking he had appendicitis. Fortunately, it seems it is probably strep throat (3 year olds are hard to diagnose) and we’re about to leave the hospital. Hopefully I’ll be home in time to catch the game tonight.
by ArkansasTravs on Jul 30, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
double coffees
Espresso has less caffeine for the same volume of grounds.
by alberich on Jul 30, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So true.
One cup of coffee (8 oz) has more caffeine than 3 shots of espresso. I would tell customers this all the time, but they insisted on buying the expensive frou-frou drinks.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
depends on who is making the coffee
I have drink some pretty weak ass coffee before
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poorly made espresso is pretty weak, too.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FUCK I missed the entire game last night
AAAAHHHH.
And like 6 trades also. Did the Giants really trade Tim Alderson for Freddy Sanchez?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 6:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yep. Har-de-har-har...
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God that is awful
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah... I have NO idea how Huntington pulled that off
But he’s been really impressive in retooling the Pittsburgh Pirates
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 30, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think their minor league system is probably top 10 now.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top 5 with Oakland and Texas graduating all of their guys
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It better be
Cause I think I can name one guy on their team now. LaRoche could be Andy not sure
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great article by David Gassko
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-treatise-on-true-talent/
He’s one of my favorite writers
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 7:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That was.... the most interesting game in the world.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 8:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
replying to gdm re: Carpenter nearly going luggage
from here. Because those overflows are too damn big.
Yeah, there was a throw to first, Albert fed Carpenter perfectly as usual, Carpenter applied the tag, and the umpire called the guy safe.
Carp was so mad he immediately whirled around and went back to the mound before he threw a punch at the guy … or whatever other form of death was going through his head.
Then at inning’s end, everyone and their ESPN camera got Carp catching the ump staring at him like he was gonna start something, and he just stopped there and said, literally, “Are you looking at me! Why are you looking at me!” All the while thinking, I can break every bone in your hand if my insurance policy didn’t say not to.
Yadi intervened, and Carp managed not to explode the rest of the game despite the shitty strike zone. He did smirk smugly when he was later called safe at first, if I recall correctly.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 9:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ah, thanks yadi. wish i could have seen it
MLB probably doesn’t have that on their site though do they?
and yes, those overflows have been insanely huge lately. VEB must have gotten hold of some magic roots from the pacific rim.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Jul 30, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not a single SC anchor mentioned that Jeff Weaver was a Cardinal in 06
Not surprising. And yet I am strangely disappointed. The editing guys lingered on Weaver’s match-ups. Their producers must be idiots.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 9:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
in fact, he was the starter of the game we won the WS wasn't he....
perhaps my favourite sporting moment of recent years :-)
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was the Game 5 starter
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh, just got into work (half an hour late)
but I’d like to thank VEB and the St. Louis Cardinals organization for making me late. It was worth it. Bonus FML: My mom (yes, she still sets up my appointments) calls me at 6:45 this morning and says, “Remember, you have a physical at 7:00.” I literally stumbled in the door at the doctor’s office. When the doc asked me if I had had a tetanus shot within the last few years, I (still being visibly under the influence of alcohol) said, “idunnnnnooooo, just shoot me up.” Was greeted with a look of disgust and contempt. Good times.
by mattyp on Jul 30, 2009 9:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i can't get my mom to make me a sammich
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Jul 30, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why the hell did I miss the game last night?
5 GAME THREADS!!!! Stupid friends.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i have discovered a possible flaw in our Serious upgrade
Some comments are no longer green. So fleeting. Such is baseball.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 9:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's really sad.
I’m not a fan of the 6-ly rec thing.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait... what?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You now need 6 recs
to turn a comment green. All old rec’d comments with only 5 recs are no longer green. Because they need 6.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They just weren’t serious enough.
by Cardinal70 on Jul 30, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Ptsh
At Halos Heaven you only need 1.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought 5 was fair.
Besides, we’re caving to an Exxon ad. I hate Exxon.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
They’re assholes.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you really have missed a lot
“That’s what — said” has also been banned, going for a smoke is now called a Khalil, and anyone with “legend” in their screenname will have a cage match to determine naming rights.
One of those is true.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when did that get banned?
how did i miss that?
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He said only one was true
I think it’s the one about Khalil
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the Khalil thing is the one that's true.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really ought to attempt a VEB glossary
Mostly I’m intimidated that I’ll miss the older in-jokes.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
apparently the image or the acronym is acceptable.
Also, MooCow has been traded to the Angels. Apparently there are more happy cows there.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hope Felonious doesn't get traded
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What'd we get back?
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
calves
Personally I think one of them is a bison.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love bison.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am skeptical about their upside
But I’ll keep an open mind.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bison typically are too large to play 3rd
This would limit them to catcher or first base greatly reducing their value to this team.
We were robbed! Bring back the cow!!
by birdo rojo on Jul 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a game.....
THAT is fun baseball. I know alot of non-baseball people would point to a game like that as the reason they don’t watch baseball, but I was on the edge of my seat all night long. Fun, fun stuff.
Good to see Hawksworth throw some good innings. We need him to be that kind of pitcher going forward. Not just this year, but in the following years. Good control. Good low strikes. I liked it.
I knew I’d like Holliday, but he is quickly on his way to becoming my 2nd or 3rd favorite Cardinal. I just really enjoy watching him play the game. He nearly always takes a good AB. Gets his rips in, but also has a very nice eye for the strike zone. If the power comes (to the tune of 25 or so HR’s a year), I’ll be thrilled having him hit 4th behind Pujols for the next several seasons.
B. Ryans defense has been nothing short of spectacular at times this season. Colby also had a VERY nice grab last night. Hopefully his bat will come around, b/c right now, OPS-wise, he isn’t adding much to the team.
Team seems to be pretty close. That is good to see after all these additions. Sometimes that can mess up chemistry, but I haven’t seen that. That is one thing I always like about the Cardinals, they typically don’t have a bunch of morons playing for them.
Sure would be nice to get the sweep tonight. I was just thinking a few days ago that we needed to go on a killer winning streak. Win 8 straight, or win 10 out of 12, something like that. Hopefully with Houston, NY, and a decimated Pittsburg team coming up, we can do just that.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ryan
has been supreme lately at SS. Every time the ball goes near him, I just think, “Out”. Hasn’t been too many Cardinals middle infielders in recent years I can say that about.
Nice to see Hawksworth actually back to being a prospect again. It’s easy to root for guys like that.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boog is 4th in RZR, 3rd in OOZ for starting NL SS
Too bad he won’t get any consideration for GG
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jul 30, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure he will
Most casual fans I know think he is an amazing defender.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeter will win it
in both leagues.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And for all positions
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's all well and good
But he’s gonna need to hit about 10 homers in the second half to have any shot at the GG.
by mojowo11 on Jul 30, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thurston's baserunning....
Here’s a question for everyone.
Do you consider his litany of baserunning errors worse than this?
Or does he have work to enter Rivera territory?
by mtalken on Jul 30, 2009 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LMAO
I don’t remember seeing that play. Funny stuff, that was terrible.
On Thurston:
I’m a fairly big Thurston supporter. I think he has talent, I love his speed, and I think he plays hard.
That said, he either has undiagnosed ADD, isn’t very smart, or simply doesn’t stay focused during games. That are the ONLY explanations I can see as being possible for his, at times, piss-poor baserunning.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mind thurston
I think he could be a passable backup IF or half a 2B platoon. But I’m kinda glad our new acquisitions mean we won’t be seeing much of him from now on…
For the league minimum I wouldn’t mind having him back next year.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Thurston's main problem is the same as a lot of guys we endu p complaining about
Overexposure. Joe Thurston is not a starting 3B; he’s a backup MI. A confluence of factors led to him being overexposed. Like Miles, he can be a useful player to have for cheap.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Style points for mattybobo!
“Confluence” is one of my favorite words.
by cardsgirl95 on Jul 30, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he ain't overexposed
now, and yet still managed to help us almost lose a game last night in his one appearance. Actually, I doubt that his baserunning ability is as far below average as it appears … but he sure has crammed a career’s-worth of boneheaded outs into one season.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I'm wondering if that's just a fluke of sorts. I mean, I'm not saying I love his baserunning or anything...
Does anybody know if he is historically a bad baserunner? With his wonky playing time and sample issues I would think it would be hard to determine.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the minors, he has been an awful basestealer
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, too his credit,
he did piss on that pitch. I’m not sure how the 1B ump could see him miss the bag from where he was though.
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They listen for it.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong.
It is possible to hit the base from the side, or barely on the corner. In fact, Thurston almost did nudge the edge of the base.
I think you are thinking of close plays at first. They can listen for when the ball is caught by the 1B, while watching the runner hit the bag.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right.
Still, even if the 1B ump wasn’t in position to see it, the home plate ump might have been. Isn’t he following the runner up the baseline?
I need to watch the video to see what the umps were doing. Either way, they made the right call.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me neither
A lot of his sucky offense is attributable to BABIP luck. He’s still walking at a nice clip , ISO isn’t terrible; but he has a .281 BABIP with a 24% LD rate.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are very bipolar
you said you hated him in the other thread!
Maybe we should start calling you Jason…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 30, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I don't know whats the deal with me and Thurston
When I think about him from a numbers point of view, I like him; when I watch him play, I hate him.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a visceral thing.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all of that.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taken as an isolated incident
that takes the cake, except for maybe Lonnie Smith in game 7 of the ’01 World Series that literally cost them a championship.
But when you look at what Thurston does (or doesn’t do) in just basic fundamental baserunning that you’re taught in little leagu, I’m baffled that he still has a spot on this roster. Once or twice over the course of a season, hey, everyone makes mistakes. But when it gets to the point of naming the daily Fred Merkle baserunning adventure after Thurston, dude needs to go.
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he's got how many
Merkles now, 5? 6?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minimum
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I should say
“Thurstons.”
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually... Thurston should say he's sorry.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 30, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry for what?
Impersonating a major league ball player?
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OOTP Baseball 10, Billy Beane & The Holliday Trade
I meant to bring this up when the trade happened, but a butterfly flitted past & my ADD kicked in.
A lot of us had talked about the three for one deal being too much talent going to Oakland. Wallace for Holliday straight up seemed more logical, but would have been a hard sell for the A’s fans to be honest. I kind of justified the trade by looking at it in one of two ways:
1. In OOTP Baseball 10, when you initiate a trade, you suggest a swap to the opposing team. Their GM lets you know what he thinks of the deal and your manager does the same. Sometimes I will offer what I think is a decent trade and their GM will agree to it, but my manager says that we should try for one more prospect. So I will just start adding players, seeing who else I can fleece off their team. I might get one or two more players, sometimes better than the original guys chosen, just for throwing possibilities out there. I’m on my third season now, and it’s really tough to do that anymore, not because I’ve developed a Beane-like reputation, but because I’ve raided the other farm systems so aggressively that all their young talent has dried up or been brought up to the majors and I don’t want to take on major league contracts.
2. In Moneyball, Beane was noted for his ability to insert himself into trades and to make it seem like he was doing you a favor for taking junk off your hands. I think something like that happened here:
“C’mon, you don’t really need Mortensen. You still have Hawksworth, Todd [not anymore], Walters, you have Garcia starting to get healthy. Just give him to me and it will help you with your 40-man situation.”
“How many outfield prospects do you have? Honestly, how many can you really use? I will take Peterson off your hands and you won’t have to deal with all those roster crunches.”
So basically Mozeliak got duped, but you can’t really blame him when he’s up against that kind of charisma.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Jul 30, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Can we kidnap Billy Beane?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What has Billy Beane won?
not being sarcastic, I really don’t know. Has he accomplished anything from his moneyball tactics, other than stockpiling prospects?
by dcfcblues on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say I wanted him
I just don’t want to have to deal with him anymore.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No
And if you take away the years where the A’s made the playoffs with the big three of Zito, Mulder, and Hudson, his reputation in terms of results takes a bigger hit, IMHO.
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From his profile MLB.com (as of 2009, not sure if it reflects current season)
The A’s five postseason appearances since the 2000 season are tied for the fourth most among all Major League teams, trailing only New York-AL (8), Atlanta (6) and St. Louis (6). They have the 4th best record in the aughts (behind only the teams already mentioned).
Say what you will about his success in the postseason, but its pretty unfair to take away players that he put on the roster – how would the Cards look in the aughts without Albert, Carp, and Edmonds?
Add in that he did all this with a payroll that is half or less much of the competition is pretty outstanding.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 30, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+100.
And let’s not forget that one year (2003?) when the A’s were this close to eliminating the BoSox in the playoffs, and you had that bizarre game where Mark Ellis missed the plate with what would have been the tying run, and then later Miggy Tejada failed to score because he stopped to argue with the ump about interference from the 3rd baseman. The A’s ended up losing that game by one run because of two players who refused to score. That team should have gone much further in the playoffs.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and isn't it common knowledge that the playoffs are a crapshoot?
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 30, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you work like he does to build a ballclub
on a payroll under $75M, it’s all about timing. You can do one of three things:
- Sell of everything of worth for prospects and suck for 3/4 of a decade before going all out when the pieces are in place and hope everyone else underachieves so you can make the playoffs (see Marlins, Florida).
- Be the worst franchise for more than a decade until you draft enough guys in the top 5 picks that you can build a ballclub. (See Rays, Tampa Bay)*
- You can try to be competitive in your division every year by drafting smart, moving your soon to be overpaid arbitration eligible players for prospects to teams in “win-now mode”, sign the other solid players you have to below-market value contracts (Ellis, Mark), and hope that your prospects all bloom at the right time while simultaneously signing veteran players at discounted contracts to plug holes (Thomas, Frank).
Beane is extremely good at doing #3. He’s got a ton of young pitching on the horizon over the next couple of years, so he’s knocking his payroll down the next two years while adding position players who are close to the majors (like Wallace) so that his club can make a run at some AL West titles as the Angels get older and the Rangers wait on their stud prospects.
*It also helps to have a front office that stops signing overpaid veterans to sell tickets and start marketing your young ballclub properly. Oh, and swindle one of the best teams at developing pitching out of a solid young arm for a highly touted malcontent.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also works in a generally weaker division with fewer teams...
by 07saluki on Jul 30, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Angels' and Mariners' payrolls are consistenly $110m+ and $100M+, respectively,
While the A’s have $60-$70. And its not like the wild card is there for the taking.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 30, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know and the Angels are the dominant force right now and will continue to be...
his method is effective to a point but there is only so much he can do. He doesnt’ have the luxury of bad contracts like the Angels.
by 07saluki on Jul 30, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I keep reading how we gave up too much.....
But just think about it, we had to be able to offer at least what BB figured he’d get back in draft choices if Holliday left after being offered arby. Wallace probably isn’t worth a first and a sandwich pick.
Also, we probably got the deal done before the deadline by offering additional players. Maybe BB said, you know, Wallace will probably get it done, but only if you are willing to wait until the deadline. Mo didn’t want to wait.
Or maybe BB had received a better offer than just Wallace. We’ll likely never know.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they have
Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, Outman, Gonzalez. I would have thought we needed Mort a lot more than the A’s did.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 30, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who wants to play 'Guess Today's Lineup'?
With a 4 game series win over the Dodgers guaranteed and big weekend series against a division rival looming, not to mention a 5 hour game that lasted til… today… We could be in for a “B-Squad game” tonight.
I’ll go first:
Schumaker 2B
Rasmus CF
Pujols 1B
Ankiel LF
Stav RF
LaRue C
Ryan SS
Thurston 3B
Lohse P
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 30, 2009 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Schu 4
Rasmus 8
Holliday 7
Ludwick 9
DeRo 3
Thurston 5
Ryan 6
LaRue 2
Lohse 1
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 30, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols plays
First off, he rarely sits at home. Most importantly though, you don’t sit a guy when he’s coming out of a slump.
I’d be the farm at least one of Ludwick or Holliday sitting.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 30, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Holliday sits
and either De Ro in Left with Thurston at 3rd, or Skip in Left with Lugo at 2nd
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like that better.
Put Skip in left and Lugo at 2nd.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 30, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea.....
Wouldn’t be shocked to see LaRue start, other than that, I’m not sure.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can almost guarantee LaRue will start
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can sleep when you're dead
Schumaker 2b
Rasmus cf
Pujols 1b
Holliday lf
Ludwick rf
DeRosa 3b
LaRue c
Ryan ss
Lohse p
by infallibleopiniongenerator on Jul 30, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I updated my GRIT formula...
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 30, 2009 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"Are Those Magic GRITS in your Kitchen?"
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 30, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT 5 MINUTES??!!
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I guess the laws of physics cease to exist on top of your stove.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Jul 30, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the yutes on the Cardinals came up big last night
(Rasmus & Hawksworth)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 30, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Boog can do Pesci?
His DeNiro is awesome.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was pure gold
peachconcrete and others are looking for a vid… in case anyone’s got it…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So which one is Ralph Macchio?
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Jul 30, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaRue...
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 30, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OH FUCK NO
“STAY THURSTY MY FRIENDS” ON SPORTSCENTER
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
crap, it was live, too
He was doing the most interesting Manny in the world schtick all morning, and then bam.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I DIDN"T SEE IT
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could feel it coming
but I was too damn busy to record in time. The one time they decide not to can live!SC.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What happened?!
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 30, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Showed the high(low)light
of Thurston missing first base then said “Stay thirsty my friends” after a bunch of similarly themed most interesting man-ny comments
by Frozen_Beltran on Jul 30, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see above
They started the morning with “I wear my glove on top of my head… I don’t always play outfield defense, but when I do … It’s the most interesting Manny in the world.”
Then Sage egged about “you have to see the look on his face when he does that” and what’s his name says he has to be in-character. A second later, the Thurston “double” comes up, he says, wait, one more time, and there it was.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sage Steele
I do like me some Sage Steele. Too bad they relegated her to mid-day stuff when I’m at work all day.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Jul 30, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
she could work on her live playcalling
She’s pretty good.
And with a name like Sage Steele, she’s probably a ninja off-hours.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
she's too classy
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you act like they don't make classy porn?
either that, or she’s Spitzer’s new call girl
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 30, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
classy for classy porn
And this conversation is spinning off the road.
Besides, in comparison to the other female anchors, Sage Steele is downright professional.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if I've ever seen her...
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 30, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Used to do
Sportscenter update thing during Mike and Mike. That’s the only time I’ve seen her.
by saladdays on Jul 30, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was Rece, btw.
He sounded a lot more relaxed than with Hannah.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my memory is hazy
was there really an IBB to get to Albert Pujols?
The highlights are cut down so much, it’s all a blur.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No
Lugo walked (not IBB), DeRosa grounded to SS and Ryan got thrown out at home, then Pujols “singled” over Kemp’s head to score Lugo and win the game.
No IBB to get to Albert Pujols, that would be ridiculous!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not that inning
earlier
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I found it, it was just a pitch-out
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
How do runners get caught missing a base? Who the hell notices that? Do you think special attention was paid by the Dodgers simply because it was Joe Thurston?
by Andyfantastic on Jul 30, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The 1st baseman
is taught to make sure he touches the base. It’s practically habit. Umps, of course, are supposed to watch for it too but oftentimes don’t. I can’t tell if your last sentence is sarcasm or not.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 30, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could see Loney staring at Thurston's feet as he rounded the base
Yes, typically the first baseman is watching. The ump should also be watching. What else is first-base ump supposed to be doing on a sure double?
by mojowo11 on Jul 30, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, credit to Loney then.
Seems to me like you’ve got to be pretty mentally locked-in to keep your eye out for something that happens maybe 1 in 1000 times. But like I said, it WAS Joe Thurston.
by Andyfantastic on Jul 30, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A pretty important hit, too
If you’re up 10-0 maybe you aren’t checking, but in extras you’d be remiss not to make sure that they touch the bases.
by mojowo11 on Jul 30, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's an umpire at every base to watch for this...
but when you miss FIRST FUCKING BASE, you’re probably going to get caught.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you can hear it
whenever they put the directional mikes on them, you can hear the thump when a guy running flat-out even brushes a base. So if an ump is standing right there, he can probably see and hear whether a base was touched.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When do they mic them up?
I’ve only seen this during Fox games
by saladdays on Jul 30, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they don't mike the bases
They either have guys miked up or there’s that directional mike by the dugout.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT:
I really enjoy the photos you people post during threads. Very entertaining stuff. I do have one request, though. Can you be sure to enter text in the subject line?
This way, when I’m done LMAO or LQTM, I can minimize the post and keep my computer happy. Please and thanks.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 11:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sbn software features I just learned about today:
1. minimizing posts by clicking on their subjects
by DanUpBaby on Jul 30, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it would be nice if minimized all posts in the same thread after it
Lets say a subject you don’t feel reading about.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love that feature
Gamethreads, in particular, are getting tough to keep up with. That would help.
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Jul 30, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lost in the awesomeness of last nights game
was that Ryan Franklin was bad again. Hopefully just another blip and not the beginning of a regression.
by dcfcblues on Jul 30, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I really didn't think he was that bad...
I mean he wasn’t good, but wasn’t necessarily a Mottedown
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he wasn't as horrible as in houston
but he wasn’t good. I guess I was spoiled by his first half dominance
by dcfcblues on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't that bad.
1st and 3rd with no out and he limited the damage. If that turns into a big inning, game over.
Here’s the good news: He’s had arguably only 3 bad outings all year. 2 of those we won.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
I just don’t like that 2 of those bad outings have happened over the past week.
by dcfcblues on Jul 30, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not worried about it yet.
If he has another rough outing in the next week or two then it will be a cause for concern.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 30, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saying "Franklin sucks" over and over
won’t be nearly as much fun, that’s for sure.
by Andyfantastic on Jul 30, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's why you need franklins.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn, it's that idiot who can't say Ludwick's name
And Luddy has the number one play today.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and no, it doesn't seem like any of these guys remember where Weaver got his ring
They spend a good 20 seconds on Weaver v. Pujols, you’d think they’d go with a compelling storyline.
Also, how hard is it to say “Pujols”? Geez.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can you not say Ludwick's name?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can hear the hard 'g'
And I’m not great at picking that up.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Lee Trade
OK, so maybe I’m too tired to figure this all out because of jet lag or something…
Why are people around here saying that the Phillies trade was such a good trade while arguing that the Holliday one wasn’t? The Cardinals gave up one great prospect whereas the Phillies gave up 4 of their top 10 prospects according to BA.
by stlfan on Jul 30, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
because they didn't give up Happ?
just my guess.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Serious question here...not up to date on my Phillies prospects
Would that be like us giving up Wallace or Rasmus?
by stlfan on Jul 30, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
Also, how long do they get Lee?
Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks. There’s too many other trades going on to keep up…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
$8M for Lee next year, iirc.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 30, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah that seems like the real kicker
lee comes at a relative bargain for another year, while holliday is either going to get some serious coin or walk next year…
Oh, and I know we’ll get the prospects if he walks, but the phils will probalby get prospects in a year for lee anyways (i’m assuming he’s type A…)
by duncans_army on Jul 30, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, Happ pitched against us last week
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happ isn't that good
It would be like giving up Boggs
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he's currently got some injury issues, no?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 30, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that's a fair assessment
The kid can pitch. And this year he’s proven his stuff at a major league level. Rookie pitchers with sub 3 ERAs don’t get traded by teams with anything approaching good management.
If Boggs were as good as Happ he’d have been an early callup with as many pitching injuries/wellemeyer starts as we’ve had.
by dugmartsch on Jul 30, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think we are seeing the top end of what to expect from Happ
regression will be a bitch
by FunkeeC on Jul 30, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happ is a mirage.
He’s 26, never had gaudy minor league numbers, and his peripherals indicate a lot of luck behind his ERA. His FIP is over 4. Not that that’s terrible, but Happ is no ace and will probably be a #3 or 4 starter type.
15=/=25
by hazel on Jul 30, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
which will still be awfully nice behind lee and hamels.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hamels is overrated also
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what would you call him -- not an ace. a #2?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In between
tRA+’s of about 115.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless he's throwing in the '08 postseason
then he’s a horse you ride all the way to title. Kinda like Jeff & Jeff in the ’06 postseason.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who will nonetheless
kick the Cardinals’ ass for years to come.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They didn't give up any of their top 4 prospects, which is amazing
Also, Lee is better than Holliday and is signed for another year after this.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
If you’re referring to the Phillies, I was under the impression that they gave up 3 out of their top 4 prospects and another in the top 10 for Lee.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 30, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No they didn't
Their top 4 prospects were Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor, J.A. Happ and Kyle Drabek. Instead they gave them their pretty good, but not great prospects. The deal for the Phillies may have been as good as the one for the A’s, but giving up Wallace hurts us a lot more than the Phillies giving up who they did.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In BA's preseason prospects list
Marson, Carrasco and Donald are each in the top 4, and Knapp is 10th. As far as the mid-season report goes, Knapp appears to be in the top 4, too.
I’m not arguing whether or not this is a good deal or trying to compare it to the Holliday trade.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 30, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carrasco and Donald fell with their struggles this year
The Phillies top 4 peices were the ones I mentioned.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think Carrasco is a middle rotation talent, upside being a 2,
but most likely a 3 or 4 starter. Knapp, however, looks like he could be a very, very good pitcher — he’s just 3-4 years away from the majors probably which doesn’t help the Phillies much this year. I think he’s going to be a better pitcher than Drabek when it’s all said and done.
Getting Ben Francisco in the deal was a huge coup for Philly though — they sorely needed another RH OF bat on the bench.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 30, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
apples & oranges
pitchers & hitters.
And pitching isn’t what this team needed.
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 30, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's crap
Replacing Wellemeyer with Lee would be just as beneficial, if not more, than replacing Duncan with Holliday.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not even close.
And espcially not in the playoffs.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explain
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If your entire argument is going to be WAR.....
Then I’m not going to change your mind.
That said, we get to go to a 4 man rotation for much of the rest of the season, if we want to. That means you are comparing Lee to Lohse. In the playoffs, Lee would likely take starts from Pineiro, and/or Lohse. Not Welly, or Boggs.
As for the lineup, it needed a spark. WAR might measure what a certain player is going to do, or add to a team, but it doesn’t measure how that player might indirectly affect the other hitters. How it might allow Tony to rest Luddy should he need it. Or not play a hurt Rasmus. Or even give AP a day or two off that he might not have otherwise gotten. And it isn’t just Holliday vs Ankiel in the WAR argument, since Ankiel wasn’t going to play everyday. It woud be part Ankiel, part Stavi, etc.
The lineup needed a boost. That is something that Lee wouldn’t have helped with, and that I think some of these stats and metrics miss the bucket on.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got any?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cant we just give sooner the troll tag
and ignore these…..
by FunkeeC on Jul 30, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
That was the same argument I made for acquiring Halladay. Another ace will improve your chance to make the playoff’s but not as much in succeeding in the playoffs. The difference between Halladay/Lee to Lohse would never be worth the amount of prospects we would have to give up.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree -- first off, our boggs/welly slot is still going to pick up
10+ starts v. 15 or so for carpenter or waino. Second, i haven’t see lohse look good since his return from the DL, so i am concerned that we may actually have two big holes in the rotation, as opposed to one. even looking at his 72 innings so far (one-third of a season) lohse has been worth 0.6 war. i think both our 4 & 5 slots look pretty weak going into october.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt we will have 10 more starts out of 5th starter
Since we have 9 days off in 9 weeks. I personally have more faith in Lohse and I think it would be a horrible idea to bench Lohse in the playoff’s or not even take him. Especially since the amount of money we have invested in him. Could create some bad blood.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i never said "bench lohse" -- i was just pointing out that it's
problematic to say that using cliff lee in lieu of, say, 5 starts by welly, 5 starts by boggs, and 5 starts by lohse wouldn’t be a huge improvement.
if lohse is healthy and effective, i think he comes with us to the playoffs. but i think he could well be off his game for the rest of the season.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But don't be mistaken
Acquiring an ace pitcher is a move against Lohse. That would be a bad Front Office move
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
lohse has a contract through 2012, right? lee’s is up at the end of the 2010 season. we’re probably going to acquire a free agent pitcher for next year anyway.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You must understand though
Imagine our playoff lineup of
Carp
Waino
Lee
Pineiro
With Lohse riding the bench or not even on the team. We still have to pay this guy another 30M for the next 3 years. It sends the wrong message and would be a very poor move
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
after he misses 1/3 to a 1/2 the seasons to the DL?
that’s a pretty sensitive dude.
i think it wouldn’t be the end of the world.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could still get some significant innings out of the bullpen, too
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm sure he'd be broken up about it...
probably go through a wad of hundreds wiping all the tears…
by duncans_army on Jul 30, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And let me try to explain this one other way.....
WAR measures what each players performance means in terms of wins.
Let’s say you took the top 5-6 WAR hitters in the league (and lets say most of them were 1B or OF’s), and you tried to field a team with them. That wouldn’t be very smart, huh, b/c you’d have some of them playing out of position, which would in turn, lessen their effectiveness.
I’m a BIG believe in the best teams being just that, the best teams. That doesn’t necessarily mean having the best overall players. It means having a complete team, one with few weaknesses. One that can win mutliple ways, and deal with all obstacles. Sometimes that might mean plugging in a guy that might not be as good WAR-wise as another guy, but he might be a better fit on that TEAM.
And example, in a way, would be our inability to do jack shit againt lefties. That was going to be a BIG problem down the road, and in the playoffs. So is it more important to go get a SP that will be worth how ever much WAR over Lohse, or is it better to go get some guys that can hit lefties (Holliday, DeRosa, Lugo)?
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I view it as a replacement problem
Not in the sense replacement level. But as in who is this guy going to replace. Holliday over Duncan, DeRosa over Thurstson, Halladay/Lee over Lohse
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read my below post
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll adress you're points seperately
1) Going off ZIPS projections, Lee has been worth about 2.5 WAR 30 starts, while Lee is projected to be about 6.5 WAR. That’s an upgrade of 4 WAR per 30 start, or .133 WAR per start. So Lee would increase our chances of winning each game by 13%. Holliday is about a 5 WAR upgrade per 150 games. That’s about a 3% increase in winning percentage per game.
So you figure that we play 19 games in the playoffs max, Lee would pitch in 6 of those, while Holliday would play in all 19. So 19*.03 = .57 and 6*.13 = .78.
So Lee would help us more in the playoffs also.
On to your second point, it’s been PROVEN that lineup protection is a myth. Many smart people have spent a lot of days researching this stuff and they have found that their is almost NO tangible effect a player has on his teammates.
To put in another way, the difference between Holliday and Lee in the playoffs is about 1-1.5 wins over a full season. Do you really think that whatever Holliday does to improve the chemistry of the lineup is worth that much?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*LOHSE has bee worth about 2.5 WAR per 30 starts
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are the other changes in WAR though
I think it’s a close call, actually. By having Holliday in the lineup you can make some assumptions elsewhere. First off, I think it’s safe to assume that the Duncan deal was a pre-req for the Holliday one. So you have Schumaker probably losing about 75-100 AB’s against lefties, replaced by Lugo. What is the impact of that change in terms of WAR? You probably also have about 50 or so less AB’s from Ankiel vs. lefties and a handful from Rasmus too….maybe vice versa, sadly. Either way, their overall production increases to a certain extent. Oh yeah, TLR is also saved from himself regarding Duncan.
The ease with which this team could be managed against had been staggering. Marginal Loogy’s could come in and have favorable matchups for a whole inning, and our answers were people like Stavinoha and Tyler Greene. Those days are over.
I don’t like the trade a whole lot because of longterm cost, but I do think this about as impactful a deal as the team could have made for just this season.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 30, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It strengthen are biggest weakness
Hitting against LHP not starting pitching our strongest asset
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares?
Lee strengthens us almost as much, and moreso in the playoffs.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Not when we are going to be playing against lefties
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prove it
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh
I will try to find something to see which split matters more hitters or pitchers splits
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not what I am saying
Prove that the difference in splits translated to runs, is equal or better to the difference that I found between Lee and Holliday in the playoffs
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know this will just cause a bigger problem
But I think WAR values for starting pitching is overvalued. Wellemeyer being arguable the worst starting pitcher in baseball this year doesn’t even have a negative value attached to him but just a 0 WAR.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm directly comparing Lee and Lohse
So it shouldn’t matter how replacement level is set.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am arguing that Wellemeyer should have negative value
But by WAR values he is just replacement level. When he is far below it in reality
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, he isn't actually
Historically, “replacement level” pitchers, which aren’t necessarily tailored by team, put up about the same production as Wellemeyer.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Replacement level pitchers are awful
They are by definition not really major leaguers.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 30, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR says Jason Motte is the worst pitcher on the Cardinals
Would you rather have Jason Motte or Wellemeyer?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Relievers are compared to other relievers
Motte, by FIP, has been more worse than the average reliever than Wellemeyer.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jason motte, but because of his
upside, not because of his production this year. he really has sucked recently.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you under estimating Holliday
The playoff’s to me mean Phillies – Hamels LHP, Happ – LHP, Moyer LHP, and now Lee LHP
He might only be worth a 3% increase all things being equal but against lefties with what he was replacing I have to imagine it was worth much more than that.
Also, where are you getting the numbers for the 6.5. I assume you are using 2008 and 2009 numbers also when in regards to the 6.5. Using 2009 numbers it is closer to 5.86. Last year Lee was striking out more and walking less people.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am prorating his ZIPS FIP projection to 200 innings.
Also that stuff about lefties is crap. Only Happ of the Philies has a lefty split, and even if they all did, the difference wouldn’t total the 1.5 win difference between him and Holliday.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So who's splits are worth more?
Cuz obviously Rasmus, Ankiel, Schumaker, and Duncan all had bad lefty splits. Three of those four guys were going to be in the lineup before, so who’s splits mean more?
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, ...
your immediate response should probably have something to do with Lee being LH against so many LH bats in PHI, but that notwithstanding ….
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that the split advantage makes up the difference between Lee and Holliday
If anyone wants to run the calculations on that, feel free to do so.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are just running the stats
While I think I am looking at the bigger pitcher. Lee would of taken more prospects than Holliday and it would of displaced Lohse in the playoffs.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lee would also be signed for another year
at 8 million, which is about 1/3 of what he was worth. Plus the package that it took to get Lee was about as good as the package to get Holliday.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about taking Lohse out of the rotation in the playoffs?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seem to value that more than anyone else here
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The mindset that we are benching a guy that we just signed to a 4 year contract
That makes the front office look like fools
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if we win a champsionship
They won’t.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It still puts the front office in a bad posistion
I could see Lohse ask for a trade in that scenario. Forcing us to eat salary to dump him
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love if Lohse asked for a trade
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this cannot be
the argument against trading for Lee.
The additional year for Lee is a huge difference between trading for Lee and trading for Holliday.
by chuckb on Jul 30, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just want to note
Earlier, I was not arguing for trading Holliday over Lee, or really even for trading for Holliday at all. I was just commenting that I think the lefty split argument has some merit if you are just talking about this year. I care about a heck of a lot more than this year, so I don’t like the deal.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 30, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you guys are crazy
If you don’t think that impacts decisions. That is a lot of money in a long term contract to flush down the drain
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how much would you pay in value
to have cliff lee over next year? he has a contract to pitch for $8m. where else are you going to get an ace-level pitcher for two years for such a small sum?
if we got lee, pissed off lohse and had to eat $5 or even $10M of Lohse’s contract, i think we’d still come out ahead.
i doubt that lohse would actually have such a big ego problem. even if he did, shedding ourselves of lohse’s contract is not an awful thing at all.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am not trying to argue
That this is a good move or not. I am trying to explain why the FO would never make a move like this
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am sure that you know the FO's mindset on this situation
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you know
Lohse personally? Because I don’t buy your assumption that his ego is so big, or his brain is so small, that he would have a fit if Cliff Lee took his rotation spot in the playoffs. Is he that petty? I doubt it.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't think
That getting cut or demoted from a team would have no effect on his ego or morale. That is not petty that is is human
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
I agree that Lohse would feel slighted. But, I’m not sure the Cardinals are inter-personally savvy enough to not make that deal for those reasons.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is not just a slight against Lohse
It is also a slight against themselves
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could be. Or maybe not.
Definitely a risk.
Anyway, none of this matters. And the speculation is all based on things we can’t possibly know, except that Cliff Lee is going to be a major asset for the Phillies this season and next, and for very little coin.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really -
1. They brought in a Cy Young! winner (never going to get bad PR for that)
2. No one predicted the Great Jo-el
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 30, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
disagree -- that's been the point of this whole
exercise. the phillies paid for lee with the back end of their top ten prospects, in a farm worse than ours was at the beginning of the year.
we MIGHT have been able to get lee and get a less-heralded RH bat. that’s why we’re talking about this.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They gave up their 2, 3, 4, & 10 ...
per BP, as it was reported this morning. How is that the “back end of their top ten prospects?”
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those weren't there 2,3,4 prospects
BP is wrong. Michael Taylor and Dominic Brown were better than than Carrasco and Donald.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=5456
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you'll notice that only Knapp makes the top 50
While 3 other Phillies are in the top 10.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're awfully big on the "prove it" ...
comment, so you’re going to have to prove how you know that one set of rankings is better than the other.
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This one is update midseason
Is BP’s? Serious question.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Small sample size
I’ll take the rankings that aren’t “influenced” by half a season of minor league stats.
There are 3 things the average man thinks he can do better than everybody else: build a fire, run a motel, and manage a baseball team.
-- Rocky Bridges
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 30, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
HAH
Small sample size
HOLY SHIT… YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING THIS!
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn results!
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by ilrosso on Jul 30, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems ...
like the Top11 rankings over at BP were all done in the offseason / beginning of the season, so it won’t take into account any ascensions / regressions of players in the first half. I would have to question what the rankings are based on there if half a season makes that big of a difference. If the rankings are more about who is closer to the bigs right now, then I could see that kind of change. If the rankings are based on potential, then it doesn’t really make sense to me that this kind of change occurred in the rankings.
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure it does
More data gives you more info.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good question though
I don’t know which splits are more true. My gut instincts the the hitter’s but I could be wrong
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am looking at his zip projections updated
I don’t see how it equals 6.5 War per 30. The have his ERA going UP not down
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HIs ZIPS projection is for 3.21 FIP
Replacement level is 5.60, so that means that over 200 innings, Lee would save about 55 runs more than a replacement level pitcher. When you use the dynamic runs to wins converter, that yields about 9 runs per win. Which (55/9) = 6.1. Then I added a .5 WAR boost for going to the NL (which admittedly might be a little high), so 6.6… I rounded down.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they project him to have a 3.53 ERA the rest of the season
Not 3.27
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3.27 is FIP
Which I, and everyone else on this boards, uses instead of ERA.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not totally against sabermetrics, and all that jazz,
but I don’t see the logic. How can you watch this lineup, compared to pre derosa & holliday, and see the difference it makes? Our top 4 starters are doing just fine, our top 4 hitters weren’t.
I appreciate the hard work put into creating these measurements, and what not, but sometimes it borders on ridiculous (and not Pujols ridiculous-ness). Holliday improved Defense & Offense (every day). Lee would improve pitching (every 5th day). on a team that, sans Wellemeyer, is pitching well, how is Holliday not worth more?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 30, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Lee makes us more than 4x more likely to win one game every few days than Holliday makes us to win each game.
15=/=25
by hazel on Jul 30, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think VEP is over valuing Lee
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regalia projections
tells me that Holliday is worth 49.3 (58 games played X .85) and Lee is worth 34.8 ( (58/5) X 3)
therefore Holliday is worth 14.5 more Regalia points, which comes out to roughly 4,860 Regalia runs over a season, divided by 162 = 30 wins. 30 wins X 35% of the season remaining = 10.5 wins better than Lee
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 30, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cliff lee's 2008 value - 7.3 WAR; 2009 value so far: 4.3 WAR
welly’s 2008 value – 1.7 WAR; 2009 value so far: 0.0 WAR.
Holliday’s 2008 value: 6.2 WAR; 2009 value so far: 3.4 WAR
Based on value so far, i would say it’s likely lee will be worth more than holliday, and probably welly will be worth less than ankiel.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Lee would help us a lot getting into the playoff's
But I still feel Holliday is more valuable in the playoffs than Lee. To me it is not about Welley but about Lohse
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Posnanski did a post
about this today … arguing that Lee is a lot closer to Roy Halladay (performance-wise) than we think; IOW, Philly did a great job in making this trade.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 30, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Than who thinks?
Halladay is a 1A type ace, maybe best-in-baseball type, but I think most people realize that Lee is only a tiny notch lower. He’s a force.
by mojowo11 on Jul 30, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Halladay is probably better we all think
Year in year out he faces the toughest hitters in baseball, and still puts up amazing numbers.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
outside of last year
what has Lee done?
(honest question)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 30, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume Drabek (the one the Phillies wanted to keep)
would be comparable to our hot prospect Walrus. We gave ours up for a rental, they didn’t give theirs up and got 1 year plus rental time.
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Philles have a much deeper farm system than we do, though
Their 4th best prospect is better than our 4th best prospect
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 30, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh here we go, more from "the list"
Ramirez and Ortiz confirmed by lawyers.
Stay tuned for more booing today.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
was about to post that....
not surprised…. just wish the whole list will come out and we can “move on”.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 30, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ortiz?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
link below
sorry bout that
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Papi-san
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 30, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
I didn’t know he did steroids
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still like that commercial
PEDs can’t take that away.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You no beeg Rabasuki!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you be right...... I hate it when I quote fail..... eggs to face any minute.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I was just having fun with pseudo-Japanese spellings
But I guess the quote usually is “You know Dan, it really is.” But whatevs.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So do the Bosox now vacate '04 title?
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jul 30, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many days before we see a sports writer propose just that?
I say two.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does
this count?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 30, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guess I'll take the under
Unless it was 1.5 hours
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and though I'll buy that it's booing Manny's "style of play"
Now it is gonna be about steroids. Even if that had nothing to do with them winning in 2004… that’s doping in 2003. People who figure they won it fair and square may not be so gracious. St. Louis has no reason not to be hostile, now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because our guys were using too?
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 30, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in 2004?
I can’t remember anyone on that team who was connected. Franklin wasn’t with us, Ankiel wasn’t with us. V was long gone. Isn’t that right?
And remember the context. They were ending their championship drought, and the Cards were winning seasons in the 90-100s. There aren’t a lot of sour grapes about the Sox championship, as bad as it was. There might be now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel pitched out of the bullpen
in 04, no?
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
and it’s rather to naive to assume nobody else on the 04 team had juiced before. Fuck, Cody McKay juiced.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 30, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just assume
that most players have at least tried it. I know I would.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would never do it
Not because of the cheating part, but because chemically enhancing yourself disgusts me on a deep level.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it's the difference
between making $400,000/year as a fringe player in MLB vs. being in the minors, I’d do it. I’d be disgusted with myself, but I’d do it.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you read that Jim Parque article?
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this the guy who wrote about
an imaginary conversation with his son pointing out every player on the 2004 world series team being on steroids?
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that would be Bill Simmons
He had decided to live forever, or to die in the attempt
by slash2049 on Jul 30, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. Linky?
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/1681419,CST-SPT-parque23.article
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting read.
Thanks.
So yeah, I’d be that guy, I guess.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think 'Greenies" and amphetimines
Have just as much effect as Steroids have. Steroids were and are mostly off season drugs to help strengthen yourself for the season. While amphetimines are drugs that help you get through the season.
This understated fact bothers me more than most.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 30, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely
agree with you.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
steroids are an instrument of moral indignation
for people who really liked baseball when they were a kid. When they were a kid baseball players used amphetamines. As a result, amphetamines aren’t important and don’t really do anything.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 30, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget the booze!!
They had to take amphetamines because they were so hungover. Oh, baseball was pure back then!
But… not like when they were drunk, pill popping, opium smoking, ethnic hating racists. That’s when baseball was truly America’s game!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 30, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i hear they help you watch 15 innings baseball
games. i’ve never, you know, tried it.
i demand derek goold be tested. his journalistic skills are being enhanced!
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You must be taking
a PED to come up with such consistent comments.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just caffeine.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately put me in this camp as well
The difference in salary is just too large a temptation to ignore. knowing that most everyone else is also doing them would lower the moral standard significantly.
I wouldn’t be proud of it, but I would have done steroids given the opportunity to establish a financial legacy that could potentially help a couple of generations.
by birdo rojo on Jul 30, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to single you out, but ...
that argument drives me crazy. That’s multiple times I’ve seen “I’d do it, but I wouldn’t be proud of it.” I don’t understand how somebody sells their own self-esteem. Morality is about the decisions you make when nobody’s watching, and it’s what you base your self-esteem on. There’s no amount of money that somebody could pay me to make me choose to disappoint or hate myself.
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grow up in the Dominican Republic
and see how quickly your “self esteem” pays for you to improve your life above the poverty level.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 30, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care.
By that thinking, then $400K is a friggin fortune, so what difference does it make? I’d rather eat dirt then choose the path you’re talking about.
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you should feel very proud of yourself.
It’s a very human thing to do things that are immoral, unethical, and disappointing. Everyone fails and everyone cheats (or tries to) at some point. Their stakes are higher than most of us will ever know or experience, so it’s hard to say we wouldn’t try something when we have no idea what that pressure feels like.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean for this to read snarky. Sorry if it did.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, sure you did, but ...
mine was full of righteous indignation, anyway. I don’t take any offense, though I’m sure I gave some.
I get aggravated at how quickly people justify tossing their morality aside. I understand your point, and if I grew up differently maybe these wouldn’t be my values.
If a person’s starving to death, I can justify stealing enough to eat. I can’t justify stealing enough to “establish a financial legacy,” though (again, not intentionally picking on birdo rojo, but it was phrased poetically). You are absolutely right that we have all done things in the past that we aren’t proud of, that’s how I know that’s not a feeling I ever want to have again.
I’m just not going to pat anybody on the back for admitting before they’re faced with a decision that they would make the immoral choice, and the situations presented above weren’t the extreme situations that TackleBox presented nor that you implied.
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think the financial argument is the most convincing one.
I don’t give much of a crap about dead men’s records, but I’m certain that I’d give even less of a crap if I was living in Haiti or the DR. People in those countries (and this one) are in such dire situations that they KILL for money on a regular basis. Taking steroids is about the blandest, most bullshit, abstract moral abuse that was ever done to make money, compared to most of the stuff that goes on in poor nations.
Become as fast, strong, athletic, and competitive as possible, and you’ll have a change to save yourself and your family from a life of rags, scraps and crime, but whatever you do, don’t do the thing that makes you all of the above, because that’s just wrong.
15=/=25
by hazel on Jul 30, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate to tell you this, but ...
people KILL for money that aren’t in the kind of dire situations that you bring up. In this country, I would venture the percentage of murders by those starving to death is significantly lower than those for much sillier reasons.
Because it’s “less” immoral in your opinion, doesn’t make it right. Rationalize as you see fit. The one above referenced the difference between making $400K/year vs. making $MM of dollars in MLB. Do you really see a fair comparison between that situation and the dire circumstances you are trying to describe?
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've turned them down before
but if they would taken me from making $50K to $400K and form $400K to $10M, I’d have tried them.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 30, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
still, I'm not talking about that
I’m talking about perception, which often has nothing to do with facts. There was a lot more emotional fallout to losing to the Astros, say, than losing to the Red Sox. Everyone assumed after that ALCS that it was “destiny”, and it’s just bad luck that it happened in our house.
I’m saying, I’m not so sure the fan-base will be as genial about that memory, now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel
5 games. I kinda suck at finding this stuff, so I dunno if he pitched in the postseason.
Again, perception — I don’t think that contribution got us to the WS vs. Manny and Papi’s contributions to their club.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel had a prescription for his HGH and used it before it was banned in baseball in 2005
Yes, the validity of the prescription is up for grabs, but he didn’t actually break any MLB rules. It’s a bit unfair to him to loop him into a category with a bunch of guys who were abusing anabolic steroids.
by mojowo11 on Jul 30, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
Again, I am still talking about perceptions. I don’t agree with some of this, but the net worth of this is = more booing.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The booing tonight will be showcased on ESPN
Book it. Mark it down. Because it will be REALLY loud, and because of the magnitude of this story, it WILL be covered.
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
by The_teague on Jul 30, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup.
I admit I was a bit amused at first… now I’m not going to be looking forward to that at all.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna go ahead guess this statement will be made on BBTN
‘You know you’ve had a bad year when the ‘best fans in baseball’ become Boo-birds’
err…or something of that nature
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
by The_teague on Jul 30, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good attempt... needs more cheesyness
think… what would Kruk say…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
'Where's the buffet?'
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
by The_teague on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that's what he's always thinking
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I bet they STILL won't mention Dream Weaver's return to STL
Wrong WS!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's odd that Bonds was not on the list
but yet the Feds obtained his 2003 samples and retested it and found PEDS……
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 30, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we sure he isn't on the list?
Maybe his name just hasn’t been leaked yet.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't know that
Someone is leaking names from the list, and I don’t believe it’s all out there. It’s a long list.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he might be right?
not all names have been released
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 30, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow.... I know I read the part about Bonds in the CBSSportlines story...
and now it’s gone…… very very odd.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 30, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cause the original test couldnt find the cream and clear perhaps?
just a guess
by FunkeeC on Jul 30, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There were/are legal questions as to whether ...
that retested sample can be accurately attached to him. Until that’s resolved, the implication from this story is a little misleading.
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm shocked...SHOCKED
to see gambling going on in this casino!!!
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Princess Bride must be the current generation's Casablanca, in terms of quotability
I mean… INCONCEIVABLE!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know Al,
it really is
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Won't that be nice ... She kissed me!
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Jul 30, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father.
You killed my father. Prepare to die.
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've never seen either movie.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's a Machine in it.
The Machine.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I came to Casablanca for the waters.
-The Waters? What waters? We’re in the desert.
-I was misinformed.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 30, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember every detail. The Germans wore gray, you wore blue
was amongst my favorite lines, just for the way Ilsa looked in that scene.
Yeah, I would have a hard time forgetting Ilsa too.
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 30, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've often wondered why you came to Casablanca
Did you abscond with the church funds? Run off with the senator’s wife? I like to think you killed a man, it’s the romantic in me.
by Cardinal70 on Jul 30, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only power guys from this whole era that really don't have a
tainted cloud over their head are Albert, Griffey, and Jim Thome.
They just need to get the names out at once as opposed to oneseys and twoseys.
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I want to know
is: are all these people who are illegally leaking the names on the 2003 list ever going to see any sort of penalty? Because, aren’t they kinda sorta breaking the law? I’m not defending steroids, but that side of the story always seems to be left unsaid.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no kinda sorta about it
the lawyers involved in these leaks should be shown the inside of a jail cell….
by FunkeeC on Jul 30, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for which crime?
i think it would depend on how they got the lists. are the lists confidential because they are medical records? or are they confidential because MLB and the players union signed a contract that stated that they would not be released?
it’s generally not a crime to break a contract.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
per Craig C @ Shysterball
“This is evidence that was seized in an ongoing criminal case that is subject to court order putatively preventing its release. The act of leaking this stuff is, at the very least, a violation of that court order and a violation of legal ethics. Depending on the exact language of the order, it could be a criminal act. I don’t know about you, but that causes me far more concern than whether Sammy Sosa took steroids six years ago. "
by FunkeeC on Jul 30, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
court orders generally are directed to a party to the proceedings or
to a witness, expert, etc. if the leak was from the attorneys or an actual party or someone involved in the case who was bound by the court order, then yes, they might be held in contempt. but if it came from another source (say, within MLB or the labs) it might not.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im pretty sure most of the leaks are descibed as "lawyers with knowledge of the case"
per NY TIMES article: “Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, the sluggers who propelled the Boston Red Sox to end an 86-year World Series championship drought and to capture another title three years later, were among the roughly 100 Major League Baseball players to test positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, according to lawyers with knowledge of the results.”
by FunkeeC on Jul 30, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if the attorneys are party attorneys and bound by the order, that's a different
matter.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention if it turns out its lab staff leaking it
there are all kinds of HIPAA violations going on which carry legal penalties as well
by FunkeeC on Jul 30, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
frank thomas, too
the big hurt has been seriously anti-steroids since he entered the league, presumably because he didn’t want everybody else to be as enormous as he was from birth.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 30, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Chipper Jones considered pretty clean too?
I’ve never heard him associated with steroids in a remotely credible way, and I think he’s made some pretty strong statements against them (then again, so did Ortiz…).
I’m not totally sure why some guys don’t have that cloud and some guys do. Looking at the active HR leaderboard, what about Guerrero, Andruw Jones, Helton (not counting the stupid comments Hagin made about him), Berkman,…?
by BTown Birds fan on Jul 30, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Andruw Jones
caught up in the whispers after he jumped to 51 homers in either 04 or 05? What really sucks is that just about everyone is under suspicion now, and I am no longer surprised in the least that Ortiz was a juicer. Look at his numbers from Minnesota, and then compare them to Boston.
And what did hagin say about Helton? I don’t recall
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hagin said that he heard through Don Baylor that Helton was on "the juice"
From this story: "I’m going to say something that is the absolute truth, and he will be mad at me for saying it if it gets out, but Todd Helton, a tremendously gifted baseball player, he tried it. I know he tried it because Don Baylor told me. He said to me, “I told him to get off the juice, that he was a player who didn’t need that, get off it. It made him into a robot at first base defensively, and may have altered his swing.’ He got off it, but he is not unlike so many athletes who have tried it because they wanted to get into that level playing field.”
Helton was very, very pissed about it, and Hagin quickly apologized and rather bizarrely claimed that by “the juice” he meant supplements like creatine, not steroids. The whole thing was weird.
by BTown Birds fan on Jul 30, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I’m surprised that Helton didn’t pursue legal action, because that’s borderline slanderous, and if he didn’t, I’m pissed at myself for automatically assuming the worst.
People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf--George Orwell.
by MilCardFan on Jul 30, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he thought about it.
but he wouldn’t have won.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 30, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and that was the beginning of the end of Hagin here
"Ludwick, I could kiss you on the nuts!" - the red baron 7-29-09
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 30, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends if you count Frank Thomas in this era.
I would put him on the list, as well.
by etp_stl on Jul 30, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Utley has caught Pujols in WAR for the season with 5.3
is it possible, that in potentially Pujols’s greatest season, he won’t actually be the MVP?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 30, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pujols will tear it up again.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still confident in this.
Remember when Adrian Gonzalez was leading the majors in homeruns? Pujols went on one of those week-and-a-half streaks where he pretends he’s a character in the Iliad who just got possessed by Athena and is completely unstoppable. He does that from time to time. I’m not quite at the point where I’m nervous.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me either.
He’ll be fine. He’s just hit a wall with his fatigue.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea i'm not worried about pujols at all
my point was that utley is incredibly underrated…and with his defense and positional adjustment…he may actually be more valuable than pujols…which is shocking to me
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 30, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's very, very good.
But Ryan! Howard! is on the same team, so he’s always going to be overshadowed.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
same thing happened to Pat the Bat, right?
It’s like a team full of Ludwicks…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if ryan howard stands between you (or citizen's bank park) and the sun, you
(or the park) will be overshadowed too.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 30, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was hoping someone would hit that tee-ball.
You never disappoint.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they made a joke about that
“That must be difficult…”
“Making the call at first?”
“Looking around Ryan Howard!”
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's slimmed down, though.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A LOT.
Looks like a different person.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that Albert needs to stop working out with him
during the off-season. But that Albert. He’s a giver. He can’t help it.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the East coast media lights burn so much brighter
Even if he is in Howard’s shadow I think he’s got a very good chance at beating Pujols for MVP.
by birdo rojo on Jul 30, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Utley is so good
Imagine being Chase Utley and watching Howard, Rollins, and then Dustin Pedroia (Wow, a 2B that hits good and stuff!) win MVPs. Where’s the love?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 30, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we should have a Chase Utley Appreciation Day
The Phillies fans sure won’t do it…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Albert needs naptime
They should give him a suite in the ballpark. The step-girl has got to be hitting adolescence, AJ has hit that needy 8yo stage, and the younger girl must be in her terrible-twos.
…hey, neat. I was googling and found this out:
Asked if he’s changed anything over the years, Pujols smiles and offers, in the manner of a man recalling with faint nostalgia a foible of his youth, “I used to high-kick with my front foot, in ’98 or ’99.”
So the ASG derby kick (or the ASG Derby Kick of 2009?) likely won’t mess up his swing.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He had a smaller kick
when he first came up, I think.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was all clean-shaven and didn't have his OMS yet
Those were the days.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coincidentally
Buerhle has a suite at the Cell for his kids to play in when he has a home game.
Gotta share this from the SI article. best quote:
Castro (catcher): oh man he’s hitting every spot. I tihnk he can do it!
Jose Contreras: Shut the f$#@ up!
by sdrone on Jul 30, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what step girl?
I want to be the no-talent ass clown!
by RosevilleRedbird on Jul 30, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
She's his adopted daughter, actually.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I couldn’t think of the term. He married Deidre knowing he’d be a father and head-of-household instantly. He was, what, barely 20?
Anyway, it’s well-known given the charity work on behalf of Down syndrome kids.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at this point, I want Health and Productivity
Albert has so many records, they will come to him in time. Flags fly forever.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
http://www.purplerow.com/2009/6/5/899303/after-losing-series-to-nl-centrals#16602754
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 30, 2009 1:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that reminds me
I was gonna check out True Blue.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we lost all 4 games that series...
sadface
"I throw him four wide ones then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on Stan Musial
by Shi on Jul 30, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Timmy K's voice just broke
SIX prospects! SIX!
That means it’s ridiculous.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Last night's winner:
Not sure I can post that photo here, but it’s worth a look to see Skippy’s face.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also worth a look:
Yadi as Manny approaches.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
here's Boog, avenged
I like how Chris Lee’s caption is “called out on a tag” not “tagged” Brendan Ryan.
Also, holy crappers, Lugo scares me.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
Someone needs to make that Lugo pic their avatar.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 30, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's scarier than evilfrog's
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 30, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs