Where They're At: Your Second-Half-of-2009 Cardinals
Things seem to have reset over the weekend: the Cardinals traded for Julio Lugo and Matt Holliday, did well just long enough to begin a new ugly losing streak, and now sit in what I will charitably describe as a near-tie in the NL Central. Todd Wellemeyer's status, while still nebulous, seems less assured than it did in his last several bad starts.
So let's assume this homecoming is a clean slate, the Cardinals having spotted the Chicago a half game out of the goodness of their heart. The prospects are gone; the new guys are no longer new. That conceit in mind, where are we now?
STARTING PITCHING
That has to be it for Wellemeyer, it has to be. The team can't take any more of it, La Russa can't afford to continue along this particular line, and Wellemeyer simply doesn't deserve the abuse that each successive pitch is going to bring him in a Cardinals uniform. I was hoping to see him build on his first start of July—you know the one, where he didn't give up a run an inning—but he's had an ERA of at least 9.00 in five starts of his last six, a game score below 50 in eight starts out of ten. Do you remember when he was pitching well, last year? I honestly have trouble conjuring that pitcher up in my mind right now. I'm sure he does, too.
There were two stretches; he began the year resembling the pitcher he'd shown himself to be in his brief 2007 tryout, a guy who Just Won by making sure, I guess, to start on the days when the Cardinals were going to score more than the four runs he allowed in his sloppy five innings. But after the first month of the season his ERA was still around four, solidly in Jeff Suppan territory, and after a hot May he looked like this:
| GS | IP | H | ER | SO | BB | HR | ERA | K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | FIP |
| 13 | 80.0 | 65 | 25 | 62 | 25 | 8 | 2.92 | 7.0 | 2.8 | 0.9 | 3.89 |
There's certainly some ball-in-play luck here, but as Duncan Reclamation Projects go this is a shining moment in the Woody Williams echelon. But my endpoint is less arbitrary than usual—after this stretch his elbow took the first step in that most dreaded of St. Louis sequences: it started barking. He came back early, got shelled (eight runs in three innings), and then didn't pitch again until a scoreless five innings at the end of June. For the rest of the season he did this:
| GS | IP | H | ER | SO | BB | HR | ERA | K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | FIP |
| 18 | 108.1 | 105 | 45 | 69 | 34 | 14 | 3.74 | 5.7 | 2.8 | 1.2 | 4.55 |
For what it's worth, the strikeouts and home runs in this stretch—where he was pitching, if nothing else, like a solid fifth starter, a typical Duncan stop-gap—are the same as they are in 2009, up to today's start. I've spoken a few times about Wellemeyer's tendency to frame his performances in terms of perceived velocity, something he does more often and more specifically than any pitcher I've ever watched before. Some days he'll say he was topping out in the mid-nineties (he usually isn't, but like network TV radar guns a certain adjustment needs to be made) and that's just his way of saying he felt good, things felt easy. Other days he'll say it's not there.
I wonder if the halcyon velocity days he refers back to, as either something he's on his way toward or something he can't quite reach, are those first thirteen starts. That kind of command, that kind of control—it's second starter material, and he did it free and easy, throwing fastball/slider like he was an overpowering high school pitcher. But last season, even after his dead arm, he was able to find a way to hit the strike zone, and in the right places. I've only seen that once this season; every other start he's either nibbled, been certain he was about to get crushed, or thrown it in the strikezone with complete abandon, and gotten crushed.
I don't know what the problem is—maybe the elbow's worse, maybe the head is. But he can't figure that out in a major league rotation, at least not this one.
INFIELD
Albert Pujols: Pass. He's slumping right now, but if it's symptomatic of anything worse than a slump there's no point in me writing the rest of this entry. And I'd like to think that the next fifteen hundred words (sorry!) have not died in vain.
Second base: Have I mentioned, before, how much I dislike Skip Schumaker appearing in games against a left-handed starter? If the Julio Lugo trade accomplishes one thing, it assures that the poor-fielding second baseman who starts against the J.A. Happs and Johan Santanas of the world alike will at least have the platoon advantage.
The Cardinals face a left-handed pitcher about eight times a month, or at least they have up to this point; if Schumaker maintains his .547 OPS against lefties, and Julio Lugo continues to slug 1.000, I predict that the Cardinals will win an extra sixteen games in August and September. But we'll see how the sample sizes hold up.
I'm just kidding-but-seriously—the makeover the Cardinals have performed on the left-of-Albert side of the infield is nothing short of miraculous. Prior to DeRosa not missing the season with a wrist problem, like a deadline deal only you don't even have to make it at the deadline, the Cardinals had three assets spread out over four positions: Albert Pujols at first, Ryan's slumping bat and hot glove at short, and Schumaker against right-handed pitching. Here's the Thurston/Greene/Greene/Barden post-mortem:
| G | PA | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG | BRAA | VORP | MLVr | |
| Thurston | 89 | 268 | 230 | 53 | 15 | 4 | 1 | .230 | .328 | .343 | -6.1 | -0.7 | -.096 |
| K. Greene | 47 | 151 | 130 | 26 | 5 | 0 | 5 | .200 | .282 | .354 | -6.0 | -1.7 | -.181 |
| Barden | 51 | 114 | 103 | 24 | 3 | 0 | 4 | .233 | .286 | .379 | -4.0 | -0.7 | -.122 |
| T. Greene | 41 | 112 | 105 | 23 | 5 | 0 | 2 | .219 | .261 | .324 | -7.1 | -2.2 | -.244 |
I brought the Baseball Prospectus stats not because I am nostalgic for the pre-Fangraphs world—although, seriously, how useful would these BP stats be if their website weren't designed and hosted in some wormhole that connects 1998 to 2009?—but because they're uniquely informative when players are being replaced. VORP shows what you expected: these guys are, when it comes to replacement level, the rule that proves the rule. Khalil aside, the Cardinals dredged these guys out of the minor leagues, and they played exactly as well as the last ten years of baseball thought have suggested they would. No diamonds, lots of rough.
MLVr, one of my favorite stats lost behind Prospectus's bad technology de facto firewall—this table took me twenty minutes to make—is especially fun here. It attempts to measure the runs per game the player in question would add to an average team. El Hombre leads the league with .626, which sounds about right. Before today's action Julio Lugo's, with the Cardinals, was 2.44, which also sounds about right.
We're not allowed those runs back, which is too bad—that would definitely sweeten the pot on these rentals. But in two moves the Cardinals have plugged the leaky spots in the lineup, and even assuming that DeRosa (.056) will replace Thurston alone in the lineup is worth ten runs on offense over the last sixty games.
Lugo (-.05) replacing Schumaker vs. lefties (a charitable MLVr for that character would be -.250), meanwhile, is worth another three runs, assuming Skip would only play half the time anyway. And that's on top of the most valuable service he renders: keeping the replacement replacements, Barden and company, off the roster.
BULLPEN
It looks like I've been vindicated backwards again—I was mad about the Haren/Barton/Calero trade because I had the mother of all prospect crushes on Daric Barton, and when I posted my I-have-reservations-about-DeRosa news break it was without knowing that there was a PTBNL, let alone that it would be Jess Todd, the last scrap of bullpen depth floating around Memphis. Had I been alive I probably would have thought the Sam Bowie draft choice ridiculous because Sam Perkins was still on the board. (I'll be whitewashing these and other caveats from my memoirs, tentatively titled I Was Always Right, and Always for the Right Reasons.) That said, DeRosa, like Holliday, is a major improvement to this team, and we're looking at the team as it exists right now, not as it will next year.
With Wellemeyer an open question, I'm convinced that right-handed relief, where the Cardinals were stacked about fifteen deep in February, is the biggest problem on this team. I'm going to do the old Rob Neyer hidden-name trick here in Hard Mode—no ERA, either, not that it's very tough anyway. Name these right-handed relievers, and rank them in order of effectiveness:
| NAME | G | IP | H | SO | BB | HR | K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | FIP |
| Pitcher A | 40 | 43.0 | 33 | 32 | 22 | 3 | 6.7 | 4.6 | 0.6 | 4.15 |
| Pitcher B | 45 | 36.1 | 36 | 31 | 16 | 7 | 7.7 | 4.0 | 1.7 | 5.32 |
| Pitcher C | 36 | 36.0 | 24 | 28 | 8 | 2 | 7.0 | 2.0 | 0.5 | 3.03 |
| Pitcher D | 42 | 42.2 | 48 | 36 | 22 | 5 | 7.6 | 4.6 | 1.1 | 4.58 |
| Pitcher E | 37 | 31.0 | 23 | 38 | 17 | 4 | 11.0 | 4.9 | 1.2 | 4.07 |
Of course you know Pitcher C, New and Improved Ryan Franklin. Back in April I suggested he was irrelevant to the Cardinals this year. I was wrong about that. And Pitcher B probably rings a bell, too. I don't know what to make of Jason Motte's first extensive time in the majors. If he had performed more or less how he's performing now except with a higher strikeout rate it would make sense—AAA hitters are bad, but they're not bad enough that they strike out literally twice as often (Sauce struck out an extraordinary 14.8 batters per nine innings last year) as MLB hitters. The massively inflated home run rate seems like penance enough for a guy whose one pitch is nevertheless Some Pitch.
The cautionary tale is Chad Harville, another stocky guy with a blistering fastball who could never get established in the majors. But Motte was better last year than Harville ever was and has shown a movement on his fastball this season that nobody could have anticipated. I think, deployed correctly, he'll be better than he has been, now and in the future—but for a set-up reliever on a contender he leaves a little certainty to be desired.
Pitcher A is the guy I'm worried about. That's Kyle McClellan, he of the 2.93 ERA. His control was plain average last year; this year it's positively bad. If you can strike batters out like Pitcher E (that's Chris Perez, who was shipped out because of his command problems) it's okay to walk four and a half batters per nine innings. If you strike out fewer batters than Ryan Franklin, it's a bad way to keep your ERA under four. That's the Cardinals' set-up man—that's why I'm worried.
Pitcher D is Jason Isringhausen, last year. It's a rough group.
As far as the minors go, pickings are slim here in July. Of the current starters-in-waiting, Mitchell Boggs, throwing 75% fastballs already, seems best suited to have a Wainwright Moment, but he also might be the best fit in the rotation. On the farm, Memphis is down to Matt Scherer, located inexplicably on the darkest corner of the 40 man roster. Scherer was the sixteenth round pick in the Chris Lambert Draft, and left half his strikeouts in the Texas League. Since coming to Memphis he's kept his ERA low by avoiding walks and, uh, having a really low rate of home runs per fly ball, which is not a great recipe for success as an MLB reliever.
Past him there's Tyler Norrick, who's struggled with control but poured on the strikeouts as a newly christened lefty specialist, and Francisco Samuel, the Really Poor Man's Chris Perez, who walks a batter an inning and would probably be no worse control-wise if he just stood on the mound in AA Springfield and threw toward St. Louis. In the low minors there's former catcher Casey Mulligan, who's got a 69:17 K:BB ratio in 46 innings between low and high A but is apparently doing it without any projectability whatsoever, and Blake King, who looks longingly at Francisco Samuel's control problems.
It's not a promising group. Out of all of them I'd almost rather the Cardinals throw Mulligan into the high minors fire and see if he has what it takes to be Brendan Donnelly for a month; he's just as likely to be Mike Sillman, but the Cardinals are running so low on options that I would not be at all surprised to see them try this guy in the middle innings.
PROSPECTS
The Cardinals system has been worse than it is right now. Wagner Mateo, Daryl Jones, and (presumably) Shelby Miller are all more interesting prospects than could be found in the later Jocketty years, where luminaries like Jim Journell, damaged goods Blake Hawksworth, and Shaun Boyd were bringing the upside. Beyond that there are some interesting guys, the Daniel Descalsos and Pete Kozmas and Robert Stocks, and what remains of the Cardinals' once-formidable crowd of future role players and fourth starters—Lance Lynn, David Kopp, Scott Gorgen, et al.
But as we've already seen, the relief corps is now more or less eagerly awaiting Joe Kelly, and the next impact bat is sixteen years old. The farm system could provide a starter, maybe Jaime Garcia, in 2010, and in 2011 Descalso and another of the Lance Lynn set might be ready to provide payroll relief. It's a system that needs to rebuild, and has some pieces with which to start doing it.
PROSPECTS
This team looks pretty good for 2009, this last series aside. The offense is watertight, with only the starting shortstop a long bet for league average, and the starters are hamstrung by one sub-replacement-level hole, which is the easiest kind to push a little dirt into. (To use this trade deadline's vocabulary, it doesn't need Roy Halladay, it needs J.A. Happ. Or P.J. Walters.) The bullpen needs some attention; Jason Motte probably won't be Pitcher B forever, but even if he recovers it's shallow from the right side. If there's one more trade to be made it's probably Troy Glaus and a pile of money for a B- prospect or a Dave Weathers type; that's the last bullet in the gun.
I think it'll be fun to watch. It's been some time since they've hit like this, and with Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright fronting the rotation there'll be some impressive wins mixed in with these frustrating losses.
Chris Lambert's ghost just sent me an instant message auditioning for the five spot—that means I've been at this too long. I'm excited about this team this season. That's what I know.
1 recs |
739 comments
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Comments
VORP doesn't include defense
I would stick with WAR :)
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 7:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Amen Danup...
live for today I say… at least that’s what I say when the future looks muddled.
As for using VORP, read the text!!!
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did
It still doesn’t make sense.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 10:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
VORP for VORP sake
I brought the Baseball Prospectus stats not because I am nostalgic for the pre-Fangraphs world—although, seriously, how useful would these BP stats be if their website weren’t designed and hosted in some wormhole that connects 1998 to 2009?—but because they’re uniquely informative when players are being replaced. VORP shows what you expected: these guys are, when it comes to replacement level, the rule that proves the rule.
I think VORP illustrates his point just fine.
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Jul 27, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, gotcha
Lesson learned: Don’t try to read as soon as you get up :)
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And hey
Congrats on the Tom Tango shout-out! For those of you that might not have seen it, our own VEP is praised for his efforts when charting which teams have the most to gain from an extra win.
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Jul 27, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, I just saw it this morning
It’s pretty cool.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations
That’s good work and great that you are recognized on a national platform.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And take it as a compliment that MGL started picking at it
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Jul 27, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hope he doesn't find out that my numbers were pulled out of my ass
When he test them with his sim :)
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols slump
The beautiful thing is that now his minor slumps don’t drag the whole team down with him.
I am really confused about the Wellemeyer situation. Tony and Duncan always seem to play a pitcher about 5 or 6 starts after common sense would dictate they should be yanked from the rotation. I guess the question is: What do you do with him once you pull him from the rotation?
by graffin on Jul 27, 2009 8:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tony stated yesterday
That Wellemeyer will get ball for the first game against the Astros. But after that they won’t need a 5th starter due to off days.
by Evilfrog on Jul 27, 2009 8:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+infinity
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 27, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
???
You would prefer to keep Wellemeyer going out there every fifth game during august?
by Evilfrog on Jul 27, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he would prefer that Welley didn't even go out there against the Astros
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 27, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wouldn't be the first time Tony lied.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 27, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Tony meant that Welly would be his date at the Veiled Prophet Astro Ball next year.
Hell, you can always hope. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 27, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that the one
to raise funds for his rescued pitchers shelter?
I never would slip you Mickey! It is merely rhinoceros horn. This makes the champagna bubble.
by The Continental on Jul 27, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, with Jess Todd being the PTBNL...
I assume that we’re racing back to the days of Jocketty selling off anyone that’s younger than 30 to the highest bidder?
Great. I wonder who we’ll get for Shelby Miller and Daryl Jones this time next year.
by craig3410 on Jul 27, 2009 8:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't really see it that way
They gave up potential, to be sure, but they got solid major league talent. And with the emphasis in Latin America, along with Shelby Miller, I still see the prospect cupboard as more full than empty.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 9:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
We got a total of 5 months of MLB talent
…for something like 30 years of cost-controlled young talent. These moves were horrible and could prevent us from re-signing Albert Pujols. The politburo has instituted the Jockeyist scorched earth policy and 2010 could be the new 2007. As Hazel posted, smoke ’em if you got ’em. Friends, make sure you catch every game you can over these next two months. The future has been mortgaged in the Quixiotic pursuit of something, which I guess is a mere playoff berth?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a little hyperbolic, don't you think?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hardly Quixotic
In fact, these moves are the height of practicality. Quixotic is believing that those possible 30 years of cost-controlled talent will bear fruit.
I’m no fan of moving this many of our top prospects (especially Perez and Todd for DeRosa), but the pursuit of a playoff berth this year (or any year) is not nothing.
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Jul 27, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quixiotic
I guess I disagree. We may not have gotten 30 years of MLB production from those prospects, and probably wouldn’t have. But, even if we get ten or fifteen, it’s still better for our franchise’s long-term interest. We did so in pursuit of the 53% chance that we make the playoffs. So, basically, we placed all of our prospect chips on a coin flip and, in doing so, put in jeopardy the re-signing of Albert Pujols.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Showing the willingness to make the move....
Is far more important to resigning Pujols than the money spent. I can’t imagine Mozeliak or the ownership will say ‘Sorry, we’re out of money, Albert, we have to let you walk.’ But on the other hand, if we finished this season out of the playoffs and Mo wasn’t willing to take a chance to win, I could easily see Pujols leaving for greener pastures.
Now, I’m totally with you that we gave up too much for Wallace, but I think if you’re going to argue that the trade will affect our ability to resign Pujols, then I think the logical assumption is that these trades HELP, rather than hurt.
by mtalken on Jul 27, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure I get the jeopardy and Pujols part
I understand that money dedicated to a long-term contract on Holliday cannot be used on Pujols, but increased revenue from playoffs and fan loyalty (no links immediately available to me, but Baseball by the Numbers has a whole chapter on the $$$ value of making the playoffs) can be used to re-sign Pujols.
While I am a little concerned about the FO’s ability to look long-term with these two big moves (again, the DeRosa one especially), I really, really hope they aren’t so stupid as to commit to Holliday and leave themselves short of cash to sign the best ballplayer of the 21st century.
I know whom to call for a hole in my roof or a whole new roof.
by lightbulb on Jul 27, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I hope that they aren’t, as well. That is my greatest fear. He is going to command an astronomical amount of money.
Increased revenue from the playoffs and fan loyalty is a bit nebulous. They have a lot of debt to pay down on the new stadium and they cannot make long-term plans based on the cash infusion from playoff appearances. It’s not sound business to do so. As for increased fan loyalty, the fact that the Cardinals’ payroll is as high as it is, basically, is attributable to the fan base. Fan loyalty allows the Cardinals to compete as a larger market team despite their small hometown market. I guess I don’t think that Matt Holliday will make us any more likely to surpass 3MM tickets sold.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, they don't have hardly any debt, as compared to most other teams.
when DeWitt bought the team, he essentially paid for the entire purchase price with the sale of ancilarry assets. About the only debt the team carries is on the stadium, which isn’t nearly as much as the increased revenue generated by Bush III as compared to Busch II.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that the stadium and ballpark village debt was higher.
I stand corrected.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Ballpark Village
was supposed to offset some of the cost of the stadium by providing retail outlets that would lease shops and stores in the village from the club. As I understood it, the bond interest on the stadium AND ballpark village was supposed to be paid in revenue expressly from the village itself, allowing the team to operate itself on revenue gained from ballclub operations. Instead, there’s no village to pay for anything, a hole in the middle of downtown, and the team is paying the bond interest out of operation expenses. This is why our payroll has been stuck where it was. If they didn’t have to pay $17M some a year on debt, which was supposed to be paid out of village leases and such, the team could have a payroll in the $110M range and still make more money than they’re making now.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, I agree with you there.
They have royally screwed the pooch on the whole Ballpark Village thing. I have a feeling that as soon as the economy starts to turn around, we will be seeing lots of movement in that direction.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get the feeling that the economy is starting to turn around
Jobless claims are down, Dow Jones is over 9000, housing construction is up. All good signs
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the economy might be starting to turn...
but there still aren’t any controls in place to prevent the same thing from happening again. There will be another sadistic bubble on the horizon, and I think it’s going to be in government bonds and bond markets this time around.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There may not be controls in place to prevent it from happening
But I think that there MIGHT not have to be. A huge reason that the recession started in the first place was because people (for whatever reason) believed that housing prices were going to go up indefinitely. i don’t think that mindset will happen again
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as if the housing bubble was the 1st bubble in recent memory.....
by FunkeeC on Jul 27, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally recall tulip mania of the 17th century
THAT was a doozy.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 27, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luckily, my ancestors shorted tulips
Suckers
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good signs
But, if you are making a business plan, you aren’t going to make it like it’s the year 2000 or even the year 2007. You’re going to be conservative in your revenue estimates, especially if your revenue is based on people spending money at a luxury event like a baseball game. (I don’t mean luxury like a BMW, but as in something that would likely be the first thing cut from a budget if times got tough.)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
New jobless claims are down,
but existing claims are still up. The Dow is up solely because a lot of companies laid off tons of people, got free government aid, and boosted their bottom line. And construction is down, but down a lot less. I think we have seen a complete generational adjustment by the american consumer, and it may take a while for that to reset the economy.
People have finally realized that they cannot finance their way through life. They have paused spending and started saving. That takes gobs of money out of the economy. Saving is a good thing for people, but not a good thing for a consumer-driven economy.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if only it didn't cost so much so have a corporation here...
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I believed this..
People have finally realized that they cannot finance their way through life. They have paused spending and started saving. That takes gobs of money out of the economy. Saving is a good thing for people, but not a good thing for a consumer-driven economy.
But I don’t. People are saving money because they’re afraid to lose any money in the stock market right now, not because they’ve decided to change their consumption rates because they can’t “finance” their way through life. This is the same drivel that a lot of us in the tech industry heard in 2000 when the tech bubble crashed, yet we have companies like Facebook and YouTube that are running up giant debts to venture capital firms (Facebook, Twitter) or their parent companies (Google) without a single clue about how to make money. YouTube is ubiquitous among our generation, yet Hulu, a site serving much less content and getting much fewer hits, is KILLING it in revenue and profit, because people will watch ads to get their content. Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg might be the most arrogant CEO I’ve ever seen. He’s had plenty of opportunities to sell his company to someone else, but refuses, even though he has absolutely no business plan for making any money from it. This arrogance is what fueled the tech bubble in 1999 and 2000, and NOTHING has changed.
You don’t think that people would be clamoring for IPO stock of Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube? Sure they would, even though none of those companies has produced a single profit in it’s entire existence, there’s no rule that says they can’t qualify for a public offering, and an investment bank like Goldman-Sachs would be happy to pimp they’re stock up to make a quick buck and then watch as it crashes and harms the rest of us. Just like it did 10 years ago.
Goldman is currently leveraging it’s investment positions in government bonds while sinking billions of dollars in the commodities markets. Did you know that investment banks messing around in commodities futures caused the inflation in the price of oil last summer? It had nothing to do with supply and demand.
These banks need regulation. Stringent regulation. As long as they continue to run wild and build giant houses for themself in the Hamptons (the average Goldman employee earned $660,000 last year) we’re going to see this cycle over and over and over again.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seem smart.
I would like to work for you
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minor clarification:
I don’t think it is fair to blame the bubble in energy prices solely on the shoulders of the investment banks. In most instances the banks were acting as market makers in derivative transactions for corporate clients who wanted to hedge exposure to price risk by taking the other side of swaps and providing flexibility to price takers. That doesn’t mean that no traders on investment bank desks were trading on the firms account (often these swaps were quite profitable), but the vast majority of the speculation was from energy-focused hedge funds and commodities firms.
To your point, though, Goldman’s business model is basically that of a hedge fund. Its income from proprietary trading dwarfs income from typical underwriting fees. Grouping all the banks on the Street under the Goldman umbrella isn’t necessarily fair as the business models are vastly different. This is part of the reason why Goldman has scrambled to repay TARP money as fast as possible after accepting, without realizing the extent of the regulations that were to come with it.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 27, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your second paragraph...
To your first though…it IS a problem with the banking industry when each barrel of oil produced in 2010 has already been traded FIVE DIFFERENT TIMES a year before it is even out of the ground. They saw a market inefficiency and then exploited it for huge profits at the expense of the rest of us. The government is supposed to protect me from schemes like this because I can’t do it on my own and that’s part of the reason I pay taxes. Also, Goldman paid back TARP money to avoid regulations AND to exploit the next huge market inefficiency — Cap and Trade on fossil fuels. Get ready for your energy bill to go up 10 fold in the next 5 years. This plan is a disaster waiting to happen.
I’m not trying to lump all the banks under one umbrella, I’m just pointing out that there are no laws or regulations in place to prevent the next great mathematical model from destroying the world economy again. There’s new regulations in place to protect rich people from Bernie Madoff type’s, but nothing in place to prevent the next AIG or Lehman brothers. That’s what really irks me. It’s part of the reason I voted for Obama and he’s not living up to his message so far. I’ve seen very little change, just more of the same.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes I wish we had an off-baseball forum,
just so I could see conversations like this continued.
15=/=25
by hazel on Jul 27, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why can't we?
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 27, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good ?
Do any other SN sites?
This group would make a fine message board, not even STL centric.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if other sites do.
I certainly don’t have the time to set one up. The concern would be that sensitive topics or the emotional responses might trickle over from one sight to the next. It would be interesting though.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 28, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on where you are. Tourism at its lowest level in Thailand since LBJ was using the country as an aircraft carrier to bomb Vietnam
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 27, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
mozeliak would trade vietnam, thailand, and taiwan
for canada, and people would bitch about how much potential average future MvORC he gave up…
the end of every half inning IS a turning point. -Evilfrog
by SleepyCA on Jul 28, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cAn't win the ws with our bullpen. if we are going all in and wiping out the farm we need to go ahead and do it by adding the bullpen arm we need
kmac needs to go to memphis
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Jul 27, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Golly...
:=8.
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 27, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if they re-sign MH and MD
they have a guaranteed formidable lineup for 3-5 years and are almost assured AP re-signs. As to cost control, I don’t mean to be flippant, but so what? Not all those guys will pan out, and theres still talent to fill in holes. And the playoffs are a quixotic pursuit? I thought that was the reason the games were played, as opposed to a lot of cost controlled talent in Mem and Sfld.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 10:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
If we re-sign Matt Holliday,
where will the money come from for Pujols? Holliday turned down a 4-year/$72MM extension from Colorado. So, that’s the low-end starting point with him and Boras. Albert Pujols is due a minimum $15MM annual salary raise. DeRosa will get at least $8MM annually. Ludwick will get a multi-million dollar raise. What’s more, Wainwright and Yadi get raises moving forward. To afford all of these salaries, we need cost-controlled pieces to fill in the empty spots. We have Rasmus, I guess. Skippy will be cheap before he hits free agency. Ryan is cost-controlled. But, unless DeWitt increases payroll in the middle of The Great Recession, I don’t see how we afford all of these contracts.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair and valid concerns
But why wouldn’t he increase payroll? I know that the Cards haven’t been aggressive in free agency, and you may scoff at a payroll increase based on the last couple years, but they have an excellent record in re-signing players that have produced and expanding payroll to compensate. A 10-15 mil increase for payroll isn’t insane, and would probably keep Holliday and Pujols with enough to fill in quality elsewhere.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 10:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt DeRosa will get 8
not with major wrist surgery looming on top of being 34 years old.
As for Holliday, if he was offered 4 years / 72 MM again, he would take it in a heartbeat. Given the economic climate and what happened this past offseason, he’ll probably get something like 4 years / 60 MM.
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope that you are correct on Holliday.
The economic climate is something to very much consider. Both in terms of the player’s eventual contracts and in terms of how it will affect the Cards’ organizational budget.
Will the wrist surgery be major? I don’t know enough about wrist surgeries to categorize it as such. He will have surgery; that’s a given. But, if it’s to repair a torn sheath that hasn’t affected his power very much, how scary is the injury downside there?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just think..
any time a 34 year old player has surgery, it’s an area of concern for any team offering him a contract. Your body doesn’t recover as easily when you’re a 34 year old.
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Derrek Lee
Took almost 2 years to recover from his wrist injury. His power numbers in particular took long to recover.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although
A nice thing about DeRosa compared to somebody like Lee is that power isn’t exactly DeRosa’s main asset. If he can still play decent defense at more than one position and get on base I imagine he’d be pretty valuable. For power we are more dependent on Pujols, Ludwick, Holliday, even potentially Ankiel and Rasmus, before DeRosa. Lee was much higher on the power list, as it were, for those Cubs teams, right?
Maybe I’m underselling DeRo though.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I apologize if that was totally unreadable.
I should breaks things up and do more proofreading of my comments.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's already hit more HR
in the last week then I thought he would the rest of the year. That must be one hell of a tape job on his wrist to make up for having a torn sheath.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for some reason I'm okay with the ticking time bomb that is The Rose
As much as I’m okay with waiting for Albert’s elbow to go.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And now that your rose is in bloom.
His bat hits the gloom on the gray.
There is so much a wrist can tell you,
So much it can say.
it remains,
His power, my pleasure, his pain, baby.
To me you’re like a growing addiction that I can’t deny.
Won’t you tell me are you healthy, Mark?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you trying to angle for a lighter?
Or a lit cell phone?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no,
I just unrationally love that song
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice work with the related batman reference
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but now
I have to sit in my office and sing that song over and over.
(until I hear a Queen or Foreigner song to take its place)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I applaud you
Because I also irrationally love that song and it sometimes makes me wonder about myself. I think I highly overrate Batman Forever for two reasons: I irrationally love Val Kilmer, and I irrationally love that song.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is getting creepy
I love Val Kilmer as well. are we in a paralell universe? your 25, right?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I'm 25
I think maybe people like us are just a fruitful target demo for this website. I keep hoping/dreading that eventually I’ll find out I went to high school with a frequent VEB poster and the thread that results will end up going down in history as the most ridiculous thing ever.
Not as ridiculous as Albert Pujols though.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also am 25 and love Batman and Seal.
And I have a nice little Val Kilmer story for you two.
I used to live in the Caribbean, and Val Kilmer came to the island I was living on. Through the grapevine, my friends and I heard that he was there as some sort of rehab ploy because he was an alcoholic. Needless to say, this was a horrible location for that, since all people did was drink and go to the beach. And apparently, according to my friends that served him, the entire time he was there he was drinking Stoli while the people w/ him were under the impression that it was water in his glass.
"I think he's the best hitter of all time. I think there has never been a better hitter than him. And I know I didn't see them all, but I just don't think there could be." - Adam Wainwright on The Mang
by bmorgan on Jul 27, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's too bad we traded for Holliday and not Doc Halladay
(although it’s Doc Holliday not Doc Halladay)
Matt Holliday to St. Louis: "I’m your huckleberry… "
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DLee Was
Derrek also got on base equally well after the injury. Both are about the same age so Lee recouped at a younger age. Don’t know how their different positions will affect their recovery rates though. It’ll be interesting to see how fast Mark gets completely healthy again.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just hoping he gets healthy quick
because I have a feeling they’re going to at least try to bring him back for a year or two
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MD is mark derosa?
Are you seriously suggesting giving a 3-5Y contract to a 35yo having wrist surgery this winter? Walt Jocketty, ladies and gents!
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 10:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I am kind of scared about trying to give a big deal to DeRosa. I’m really hoping Freese/Craig/Descalso et al. end up being more favorably viewed by the organization come spring training.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, not at all
I would offer DeRosa a 2 yr deal. The 3-5 yrs was the timeframe I thought you could reasonably expect Albert, Luddy and Holliday to rake in the middle of the lineup together, assuming you can get Luddy somewhat long term. Sorry, shoulda been clearer on that.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 11:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Right, but the talent we gave up to get them has absolutely nothing to do with our ability to resign them.
Essentially, the talent we gave up was in exchange for a couple month “try out” with no benefits, advantages or assurances of resigning them.
Pretty stinky if you ask me. I think the Holliday trade will bite us in the ass, but I really hope I’m wrong.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 27, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw your up for the Hall next year
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(eligible)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm destined for the "Hall of Very Good" but thanks for noticing.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 27, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just start some PED rumors
about Alomar, Ventura, ect…
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So....
If 2010 is the new 2007, does that mean we are going to win a World Series this year?
That is a very optimistic outlook!
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 27, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll also have about 50 early round draft picks next year
It’s quite likely that one of DeRo or Holliday will be back, but the other one (plus possibly Troy Glaus) will likely provide at least a first round pick and a supplemental, with further supplemental picks coming from Ankiel, Pineiro and possibly Trever Miller. If, as expected, Bittle and Kelly move up the ranks quickly and we get Shelby Miller signed, we’ll at least be on the way to restocking the system by the end of 2010.
That said, we did get shockingly little return this season for trading/losing FIVE right-handed relief prospects of various levels (Perez, Todd, Gregerson, Worrell, Perdomo), a couple of marginal outfielders (Peterson & Barton), a quite-likely-to-be-respectable-#4-or-5-starting-pitcher (Mortensen) and a top-30 offence-orientated corner infielder (Wallace). I suppose you could add in the fact that we pissed anthony Reyes away last year. All of that has basically brought us a few months of DeRo/Holliday, some possible compensation picks, and some minor production earlier in the year (from the likes of K Greene & Boyer) below replacement level. Mo’s not looking like a terribly smart guy in 2009.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh and we threw Tyler Herron away earlier this year for no reason
as well as sucking at evaluating talent, we’re quite good at wasting it and getting little back for serviceable pieces. We’re not a very efficiently-run organisation, that’s for sure. For example, I’m pretty sure if we’d kept hold of Herron (even if he wasn’t in our plans), he could’ve been the “throw in” for the Holliday trade instead of Peterson.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We didn't get good return on our relief prospects -- no question
When you look at our draft strategy though, you had to see these moves coming. We drafted a ton of college reliever types in June, so you had to figure they were going to use some of the relievers that we currently had to bolster the trade pool come July. Hopefully the college relievers we drafted are in AA by the beginning of next season and guys like Derek Hooker, Lance Lynn, and David Kopp can fill the roles of Mortenson, Todd, and Worrell in the high minors next season. All is not lost — there’s still more talent in our farm system than at pretty much any point in the Jocketty era.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at the future Redbirds preseason prospect list...
Rank Prospect List Erik Roarke Azru
1 Colby Rasmus 1 1 1 (graduated)
2 Brett Wallace 2 2 2 (gone)
3 Chris Perez 3 3 5 (gone)
4 Bryan Anderson 4 6 4(injured)
5 Daryl Jones 5 5 10 (sucking, .744 OPS)
6 Jason Motte 8 7 6 (5.70 ERA)
7 David Freese 12 4 8 (.686 OPS in AAA, .490 OPS in majors)
8 Jaime Garcia 10 13 3 (injured)
9 Jess Todd 7 8 11 (gone)
10 Mitchell Boggs 9 12 7 (gone)
11 Pete Kozma 6 11 12 ( .572 OPS from a 21-year-old middle infielder)
12 Allen Craig 14 10 9 (Best prospect right now, and he’s blocked by Pujols)
13 Jon Jay 11 9 13 (.674 OPS in AAA)
14 Clayton Mortensen 13 14 14 (Gone)
15 Niko Vasquez 16 18 17 (.540 OPS, A ball)
16 Tyler Henley - 17 16 (.905 OPS in AA as a 24-year-old)
17 Tyler Herron - 16 18 (gone)
18 Lance Lynn 17 - 19 (best pitching prospect, 3.22 ERA as a 22-yo in AA)
19 Fernando Salas 18 18 - (6.17 ERA in AAA)
20 Adam Ottavino 19 - 20 (4.78 ERA in AAA)
That’s just fucking horrific. Everyone’s either gone, injured, sucking, or two old for their league.
by craig3410 on Jul 27, 2009 9:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that's what I was looking for, thanks
Is it too early for booze?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our best prospect right now's either our preseason 12th or our preseason 18th
Hell no.
by craig3410 on Jul 27, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our current top 5, in my view:
1. Descalso
2. Jones
3. Miller (once signed! Pretty sure that’ll happen)
4. Garcia
5. ermmm, really struggling now, can we count Boggs??
Descalso and Henley (who’s still only a marginal prospect) are about the only two success stories this year still in our organisation…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
With a ground ball rate near 50%, it’s going to be tough for Descalso to maintain his BABIP and BA. I think Jones might still be your best prospect, might even go with Shelby’s upside.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His Line Drive rate
is over 20% at two different levels this season as well though, and he profiles as more of a line drive hitter. I’m not too worried about the GB% at this point.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's also a 2B with a good glove
he doesn’t have to hit that much, especially in our org, to be valuable. Jose Reyes has a comparable GB% (about 45%) at major league level (though he’s likely faster) and still gets on base at an acceptable clip.
Minor league GB/FB/LD scoring, error rates etc. can be a bit gippy, too, I wouldn’t necessarily put a ton of stock in them.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Jose Reyes comp is laughable! [Sarcasm Warning Level Orange]
Sure, the GB% are similar… but Reyes currently and has always sported an E/9 of 9.3 or above (excitement points per nine innings). I’m talking about his entire professional career. As a major-leaguer Jose Reyes has a career E/9+ of 183. That’s huge!
In all seriousness though, Descalso has been fun to keep track of at F-R. Did he come out of nowhere? Because I don’t even think I was aware of him until this year. I’m far from a prospect expert though.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do they compare as far as "fun to watch" statistics go? I hear (constantly) that Reyes leads the universe in that area as well.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 27, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's definitely a perennial leader in Sparkplug Index
But I’m not sure if you can accumulate points for SI while on the DL.
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
same as you re: Descalso
I’m no prospect expert either, though. Just getting into it (a bit) this year through FR.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you hear Joe Morgan say..
…that he thinks Reyes is the most exciting player in baseball?
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Morgan knows baseball, because he played the game the right way
I wonder if Reyes compares favorably to Concepcion… I’ll have to check fangraphs.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes
Is one of the few who can succeed with a GB rate that high. Another prospect I’ve never liked much is Cameron Maybin. He’s maintained an even higher rate all throughout his career and hasn’t yet succeeded at the major league level.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
I just believe that more of those ground balls will become outs at the AAA and ML level with the improved fielding there. I don’t know the park factors of either Springfield or Memphis are though.
BTW, watched a game at AutoZone park last Monday, very nice stadium. Too many empty seats though ….
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's an exercise for you then...
Big league hitters the last two years with GB% (47%) and LD% (21%) similar to Descalso’s in 2009:
- Robinson Cano
- Shin Soo Choo
- Michael Young
- Victor Martinez
- Pablo Sandoval
Thing is, none of those guys have a lot in common except those two statistics. Sandoval is a free swinger, Martinez takes a lot of walks. Young is probably the best comp to Descalso’s hitting style, but I certainly don’t expect him to be that good of a hitter.
It’s a fools errand to look at those numbers and decide he can’t hack it at the big league level, when there are guys at the big league level hacking it just fine. Better measures would be isolated patience, isolated power, and walk rate. On these grades he does just fine, and that makes him the best 2B prospect in our system by far.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bless you
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
Choo = Most underrated in the big leagues. By far.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
and was picked in most fantasy drafts in the bottom 10 rounds this year, making him an absolute steal.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed.
hence why my fantasy team name is
I Shin Shoo Choo Choo Choose You
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
by tgreenfield on Jul 27, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is awesome
My team’s name was “Gateway Gallimaufry” and was easily the most clever in the league. But I don’t think it compares to yours.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't put much effort into my teams this year
thus why I ended up with: Boats and Pujols
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my team
is 3 Molinas 1 Cup
"I think he's the best hitter of all time. I think there has never been a better hitter than him. And I know I didn't see them all, but I just don't think there could be." - Adam Wainwright on The Mang
by bmorgan on Jul 27, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you trying
to make people throw up?
by saladdays on Jul 27, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i thought it was funny
"I think he's the best hitter of all time. I think there has never been a better hitter than him. And I know I didn't see them all, but I just don't think there could be." - Adam Wainwright on The Mang
by bmorgan on Jul 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't completely serious
I do think it’s kind of funny.
by saladdays on Jul 27, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the Molinas one.
I got “non-roster ingrates” in the VEB league…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 4:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Choo.
He’s got a pretty sweet all around game. Very underrated.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't have the energy to look it up...
…but didn’t Choo have a .950 OPS against RHP last year?
Anyway, the guy is a really good hitter. He’s reportedly one of those The Ball Sounds Different Off His Bat (TBSDOHB) guys, joining Pujols, Cabrera, Manny, and The Guy Who is Currently Facing Wellemeyer in the TBSDOHB Club. Which rolls off the tongue…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols still is
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
But I never said he couldn’t hack it at the Major League level. My only point was that some of those ground ball hits he’s getting in the minors will or could become outs. I don’t know much about him personally. This is the first place I’ve seen Descalso discussed at all. If I had known about him, I would have taken a closer look at him last Monday while at the game. Doh! Now I see that he only pinch hit in that game so I missed seeing him play along with Wallace. Anyways, thanks for the replies. One can never know too much about their enemies. :)
PS. One of my favorite players is the Kung Fu Panda.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I'm saying
is that there are a lot of guys like him who go on to have successful major league careers, and that using those two statistics isn’t a good predictor of much at the MLB level. Stats like ISOP and walk rate are much better indicators of future success.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My top 5:
1) Jones
2) Miller
3) Garcia
4) Descalso
5) Hmmmmmm.
I guess it’s just re-shuffling the deck chairs. Jones’s injury (provided it’s not a nagging problem) gains him forgiveness in my eyes.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, none of them are blue-chippers likely
I’d say Jones, a healthy Garcia, maybe Descalso and maybe Miller (if signed) are at the lower reaches of the baseball top 100, but you could probably make the argument that none of them are even top-100 at the moment. Certainly, I don’t think there’s a top 50 talent in there right now.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones and Garcia
If both are health, I agree on that one-two. If Jones isn’t healthy, Garcia may be #1. (I can’t believe I just typed that about a guy just beginning to pitch in live games after Tommy John Surgery.)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't just mean this as a replt to you, bgh
but why is everyone still so high on DJ tools?
I don’t know about his current injury, but his season last year was incredibly lucky. He had a .399 BABIP in high A and a .341 in AA. This season he is only OPSing .743 with a BABIP of .357. If he’s our number one prospect, that’s pretty sad.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jul 27, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
some hitters have higher BABIPs than others
and DJ could certainly be one of those guys with his plus speed. Apparently the knee injury has really been a big problem for him this year
by Glowsticks on Jul 27, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There were only 6 hitters
in the MLB who had BABIPs higher than .357 last season. He got lucky last year, no doubt about it. I don’t see enough evidence to show that he’s the prospect some seem to think he is. And if this season can be entirely written off because of his knee, I don’t know what else to add.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jul 27, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See him in person when he's healthy and you'll understand.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 27, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sound logic.
I went to probably 25 Springfield games last season and have been to 14 so far this season.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Jul 27, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw him way back when he was in Quad Cities
He made some spectacular defensive plays. He flew in left field at times. He also got fooled on a LOT of bad breaking balls.
Hopefully he can rest that right leg (the injury has cascaded through knee, hamstring and quad) and come back healthy soon.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 28, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DJ Tools might've been lucky last year
but minor league BABIPs are notoriously gippy – I would put no stock in them whatsoever.
Go and look at the BABIP of any number of blue-chip hitting prospects in the low/mid-minors and you’ll find that most of them are in the .350 range.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 4:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ground balls actually lead to a higher BABIP, I believe...
They find more holes than fly balls, to be sure
Someone correct me if I’m wrong?
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You Are Correct Sir
But flyballs turn into extra base hits at a higher rate. I forget the exact figures, but LDs turn into hits about 70% of the time.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why doesn't everyone just hit line drives, then?
God, hitters are so stupid.
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Was Boggs traded?
10 Mitchell Boggs 9 12 7 (gone)
Did I miss something?
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jul 27, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering the same thing
As far as I know he is still on the team.
by graffin on Jul 27, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I thought -
where did he go?
by cardsgirl95 on Jul 27, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he was traded.
I heard him in rumors and get mixed up, I guess.
by craig3410 on Jul 27, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sell them all
we don’t need prospects!!!
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 27, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right!
If they are so great, why aren’t they in the majors?
by graffin on Jul 27, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They haven't proven anything.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 27, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me, this shows
That everybody is acting like they’ve discovered fire by over valuing prospects by saving that “possible” magic bullet for tomorrow. I still maintain that mentality is for teams like Florida, KC, etc.
David Freese was projected to not even be replacement level (per pecota) but he gets involved in a high profile trade all the sudden he’s the 3b of the future. The cards give up our 3rd best and 9th best prospect for a guy that could add the marginal win to get to the playoffs? I think that’s what being a perennial contender is all about.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 27, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perennial Contention
That, I think, should be the organization’s goal and that is why I hate these trades. They have sold off virtually of our prospects who have enough talent to help the club in 2010, by being cheap and replacement level or better, which would allow for us to spend money in other areas. Now, we have 40% of the starting rotation hitting free agency (20% if we don’t count Wellemeyer—lets say, 20%), Our LFer hitting free agency, and our 3Bman hitting free agency. We simply cannot afford to fill all those holes and re-sign Albert Pujols.
David Freese wasn’t traded. Brett Wallace, on the other hand, had a half-season of pro ball under his belt. Let me know what his PECOTA is come February.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant nobody thought anything of Freese until he got press
in the Jed trade.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 27, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think anything of Freese
until hit .306/.361/.550/.911 with 26 HR in AAA last year.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get your point, but
couldn’t we fill one of the holes (3b or LF) with either Freese, Craig, or Mather and then look to spend some cash on the other. Theoretically, one of that list should prove to be capable at the ML level with the bat and do it for the major league minimum. Could we not afford to offer Holliday his contract, let DeRo walk, and plug one of Freese or Craig in the 3b hole?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could
But I think the organization is sour on Craig. It’s the only to explain their implementation of him this season. Freese’s injury makes me wonder whether he’ll bounce back for 2010. Mather’s injury makes me wonder whether he’ll bounce back for 2010. So, I don’t think that the Cards, in good conscience, can rely on either of those guys. They have to have an alternative option.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to know what Craig did to TLR's mother
to keep him from getting a chance. Mather’s injury really worries me in that it is the type of thing that robs a man of his power for a LONG time, plus it is a recurring issue. I’ll give you that one.
Freese’s injury was his foot, right? Maybe his ankle. I bet he makes it back pretty healthy.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Achilles Tendon
But, we’ve had so many false starts and stops with him related to it. I’m wondering what the long-term effects are. Plus, it’s the Cardinals, so I don’t put money on injury recoveries.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to be fair to TLR
I don’t think he had anything to do with Craig being moved to LF/1B and not calling him up. Those decisions are on others in the org (presumably Mo and whoever is making the team sheets at Memphis).
I don’t think Craig is a 3B anymore. Mather has had major wrist surgery a couple of times this year, and may never regain his power (and he probably won’t next year), and probably can’t defend at 3B well enough to be everyday. That basically leaves Freese, who’s been injured and who has precisely one meaningful minor league season in his career. I’m not saying Freese can’t do it, but putting all our eggs in his basket probably isn’t smart. He might not be much better than the garbage we’ve had at 3B throughout most of this year.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 4:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't the most important thing...
the development of impact players, not 4th starters and 4th OFers? If so, Rasmus’ success this year is easily worth the entire second half of your list, if not the bottom 3/4.
Jaime Garcia isn’t injured anymore, and he’s coming to St. Louis soon, Boggs hasn’t gone anywhere, plus you have to add Miller (hopefully) and Mateo. That makes things look a little better, no?
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if we sign Wlad...
we’ve got Holliday’s replacement.
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Balentien's K-rate
makes him pretty marginal in my view. No harm rolling the dice and seeing what he can do, but the guy is 25 and sporting a 30% strikeout rate. Although I guess his K/BB ratio is not bad at all in AAA.
Like I say he’s worth a chance but he’s no sure thing. And he’ll probably still cost something to acquire, given his gaudy AAA numbers the last couple of years.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
I used to watch him in Tacoma a lot. I can’t believe how much he struggled in Seattle. He just turned 25, consistent 300 iso in the PCL. I don’t know what you trade to get him… maybe a Hawksworth or Walters? Maybe something in the lower minors…
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we can get him for walters or hawksworth
I agree that it’s probably worth a try. It does reduce our depth a bit next year, though, which could be a problem now that Mort’s gone…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A note on Fernando Salas..
His AAA numbers are inflated presumably becuase he was pitching hurt. That 6.17 ERA 11.2 innings. He then went on the DL for a few months and is now in AA. Until last night where he got rouged up a bit, he had an unblemished ERA through 7 innings.
He’s still no where near a “can’t miss prospect” but I am interested to see how he pans out. I like his high strikeout rate.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 27, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
eduardo sanchez is now our best right-hand relief prospect
at least until he flames out. I have very little faith in Salas, Samuel or Reifer having much chance of being useful at major league level. At least, their chances are fairly slim.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking about Sanchez this weekend
Remember when the Angels called up K-Rod as a 20year old in 2002, and he baffled hitters who had never seen him with his high octane FB and mean slider.
K-Rod, at his very young age, had demonstrated good K numbers and control already in the minors. Just as Sanchez is doing now.
Just a thought, and not really serious, but how do you think Sanchez would fare right now if he were called up as a 20year old. I’m just looking at the reports of his “stuff” and the control he has demonstrated, and wondering how much he could fool major league hitters getting their first look at him.
by pitchingandefense on Jul 27, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he probably wouldn't be any worse than the rest of our pen
Franklin and Miller excepted. That said, I doubt he’d be much better either. I’d rather just let him develop.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how are their chances slim?
Control issues can be fixed, Samuel and Reifer especially have the kind of stuff that could make them dominant at the major league level.
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Control issues can be fixed?
The history of baseball is littered with broken dreams that call that idea into serious question.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 27, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I would say that control issues can occasionally be fixed. Maybe even sometimes be fixed. I think a lot of it just has to do with what’s causing the control problems. Sometimes it’s just a matter of experience, and in those cases, often a pitcher can improve. But sometimes it’s mechanical, and pitching mechanics are such a minute science at the professional level that sometimes tinkering can lead to improvements, but sometimes it just makes things worse.
Here’s a truism I just made up on the spot: People are weird. Pitchers doubly so.
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
but you’d have to admit that it’s easier to teach a guy to throw strikes that it is to teach him to throw 95-97 mph. I can learn to throw strikes, but I’ll never learn to throw harder than 70 mph.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lots of NBA teams draft guys because
you can’t teach height. And lots of NBA teams get burned for it.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see
what this has to do with the conversation. Just because they’re tall doesn’t mean they have any “talent” — that’s a whole different topic.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because they can throw a ball really hard,
doesn’t mean they are ever going to be successful pitchers. It helps, but it isn’t a determinate factor by itself.
Being 7 feet tall doesn’t necessarily mean that a person will be a good basketball player. It helps a bunch, but it isn’t a determinate factor by itself.
I think it’s a pretty good comparison.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see where you were trying to go
I just don’t agree with the analogy so much. If you can throw 95 mph, there’s a good chance that you can be coached up to throw strikes well enough to make a run at being a successful pro pitcher, with no other skills at all.
If you’re 7 feet tall, that tells me nothing about whether you can run up and down the floor or have any athletic skills whatsoever. Generally though, 7 footers who have good athletic ability stay around the NBA for quite some time if they have any basketball skill at all.
Throwing 95 mph tells me a lot all by itself, that you’re gifted at throwing a baseball. Being 7 feet tall doesn’t tell me anything about how good you are at basketball, just that your head is closer to the rim.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But even so,
physical gifts (velocity or height) are something of a prerequisite to success in the professional athletic leagues. Yes, people without them make it from time to time, and it’s better to have physical skills coupled with coordination and mental capacity, but if you only throw 70MPH or are 5’4", you’re just not likely to make it.
Also, there is a false dichotomy here, that velocity and control are always opposed. Plenty of pitchers have mediocre velocity AND mediocre control. Pitcher that have very good control are generally turned into SP prospects, while RP prospects is what high-octane, mediocre control pitchers become. It’s self-selection.
15=/=25
by hazel on Jul 27, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I was saying
was that if you throw 95 MPH you’re going to get drafted most likely, because you can’t TEACH someone to throw 95 MPH. My brother could put the ball wherever he wanted to, but he topped out at around 75 mph with two good breaking pitches…and didn’t even get a chance at pitching at the college level.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how are their chances slim? Control issues can be fixed, Samuel and Reifer especially have the kind of stuff that could make them dominant at the major league level.
Relievers like that (about a K/inning at the mid-level minor leagues) are really not that rare, and only a very small percentage of them make it to the major league level and become positive contributors. Most decent minor league systems have 2 or 3 of these guys. You’re lucky if one pans out.
Reifer has taken a step back this year and is walking far too many, and last time I looked he wasn’t out of A-ball yet. I’d say he’s barely a prospect at the moment. Samuel has good velo, good movement and a good K-rate, but he walks about a batter per inning this year. That’s abysmal control, and he won’t progress in AAA until he does something about it (which he’s showing no signs of doing).
The minor leagues are paved with failed prospects who can get by on pure stuff in the low minors, and then flame out due to their horrible walkrate when they get higher. It’s far more likely, just based on simple probability, that Samuel and Reifer will do that than learn radically better control and make it to the show.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've heard reports that
Samuel’s stuff is absolutely electric. His numbers would suggest otherwise.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 27, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It didn't look that good with PItch f/x
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Ankiel had electric stuff
His numbers (late in his career) suggested he was throwing with his non-dominant hand
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted to make a joke here about some Cardinals pitching prospect that was rumored to have insane velocity and then turned out not to
But I forgot which one it was. So here I am, posting about how I wanted to post the joke instead of posting the joke. Basically being the message board “that guy.”
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Samuel
but Samuel’s control makes Chris Perez look like Bob Tewksbury. He needs LOTS of improvement.
KJOK
by KJOK on Jul 27, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then who does Blake King make Chris Perez look like?
by flipthebird on Jul 27, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Charlotte Bronte, surprisingly.
He’s good with prosthetics.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 4:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones has been injured most of the year
Don’t read too much into his mediocre OPS
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Don’t read too much into"
This is a baseball blog! We’ll read too much into whatever we damn well please, thankyouverymuch!
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was promoted to the major league rotation
He’ll be taking Wellemeyer’s next start according to Tony.
…
JUST KIDDING HAHAHAHAHAHA
TODD WELLEMEYER IS GETTING ANOTHER START
ALL YOUR WORST NIGHTMARES ARE TRUE
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mods, ban this person please
=P
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What happened to Boggs? I didn't see that he moved on.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 27, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as far as I know he hasn't
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
by StLHugo on Jul 27, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boggs
hes gone? When did this happen?
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DanUp, does this mean we all end up loving TLR and MO in the end?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 27, 2009 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
SPOILER ALERT
Don’t worry. At the end of the third act, the conflict is resolved, Tony and Mo turn out to have been allies all along (surprise!), and Brett Wallace is returned to the Cardinals in one of the great plot twists in modern American theatre (yes, theatre, spelled pretentiously).
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
American theatre (with the British spelling).
Wonderful!
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ye Olde Americane Theatre
Because stuff is more cultured and quasi-historical when it ends in the letter E. ®
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where's Red Baron during all of this?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely didn't kidnap him
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Red Baaaaaaaaaaaaaron
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure he's off having an incredibly introspective moment.
He seems to need at least 2 of those per day.
Love ya, RB!
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's his birthday!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
anyone send him a birthday text?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I know is that the city of St. Louis better
turn up the ass-kissing to 11 for Holliday and DeRosa, otherwise this team is gonna SUCK the next few years if they leave.
by craig3410 on Jul 27, 2009 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
MIDWEST-NICE ENGAGE
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well gee whiz, Mr. Yadi2Second
We engaged that decades ago! But you couldn’t have possibly known that, of course, so nobody’s blaming you. We’re all just here to have a cordial chat about the Great American Pastime, no need for contention.
Oh hey, there’s the new neighbors. Matt! Mark! Come on over here guys, my wife cooked some just tremendous pot roast and we want to talk to you about how much we value your contributions here in the Lou. Plenty for everyone.
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
get out the air freshener
best thread response to that (wait for the comments to load)
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no pot roast for Julio?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i still think allen craig could be a serviceable third baseman for us next year
i agree that holliday needs to be resigned, but i think we have ty wiggington down on the farm, and while he won’t be rolen or glaus(last year), he’ll be better than the thurston/barden/greene trybutfailumvirate from this season
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 12 recs
rec for this
trybutfailumvirate
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jul 27, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Craig
I think his future role, as it should’ve been at some point this year, is the Spezio “corner infield-outfield/PH bench depth” guy. He could probably platoon with Ankiel in LF next year and not be totally embarassing if we go down the “Glaus/DeRo at 3B and spend the rest of the money on a SP” route.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
When we can Mark DeRosa for 3 years at $24MM? He’s a Proven Veteran.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I understand the question.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was being facetious
I apologize. I was saying, “Why use Craig in the Speez role when we can sign DeRo for $8MM annually to do that? After all, he’s a Proven Veteran.” I agree wholeheartedly with your idea. Craig should have been called up weeks ago.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair to DeRosa
he’s been a spectacularly efficient player the last few years, and he’s been (and will be) more of an everyday player than a speizio-type going forward. He’s been great value for money the last couple of years, and, despite the fact he’s likely to be in demand, I don’t actually think something like 2yr/$20m would be a bad contract for him (though obviously I’d prefer it if he was available on a 1-yr deal).
I suspect if we pay him next year, it’ll be to be our full-time 3B, in the knowledge that he can always play LF, RF or make some platoon starts at 2B if someone like Freese ends up winning the job.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has been
But I worry about his age and continued production over the course of a contract. If it’s a 2-year deal, it’s tough to argue with. In fact, I wouldn’t. I’d be excited about it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you rationally
But I remember when the Cubs signed DeRosa right after he had that “breakout” season with the Rangers that was OBVIOUSLY a mirage. I pretty much laughed off a longish-term contract for him, as did most of my Cubs fan acquaintances (whoah, I almost said “friends” here, but then I caught myself).
Then he went and turned into TLR’s wet dream of the player with a tremendous Clubhouse Guy Index, a Positional Versatility/150 over 5, and power in the 2-hole. I ate crow for dinner for like, six straight months.
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lots of protein, crows have...
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least two straight *years* of crow, right?
Last year, for the Cubs, he was stupendous. Ugh. I hope you had some BBQ sauce, or something.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Proven Veteran®
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying you're wrong
But I will say that this comment takes me back to the days of the offseason when we were all pretty sure David Freese would solidify the third base position until Glaus returned from his injury.
We were so naive then to think that a) Freese was any good at this baseball thing and b) Glaus would be returning on a reasonable schedule from an injury that occurred while he was a member of the St. Louis Cardinals.
Ah, those halcyon days of endless depth at 3B and OF.
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my first ever green post
i feel so eco-friendly!
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
go kill a whale to celebrate.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 4:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll do my part
by leaving my laser pointer at home and…uh…not beating anyone to death with my bare hands outside Busch. You know, midwest charm.
by mattyp on Jul 27, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, if you wanna be a city that knows how to win championships
sometimes you have to savagely kill people in parking lots and interfere with baseball games by potentially harming players’ eyesight. That’s what we wimpy midwesterners will never understand.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeWitt is on record
as saying they do not view Holliday as a short term rental. They made a good trade but boxed themselves into a corner. They might have to opverpay for Holliday, but the backlash from the fans would be harsh, and a failure to keep Holliday (and to a lesser extent DeRosa) would probably mark the beginning of the end of the Pujols era. BTW, I apologize in advance for gross spelling errors—I’m commenting from the mobile site from my phone. This so rocks!!!
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 9:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I'm only assuming BUT
wouldn’t you think DeWallet & Co were talking to holliday and boras before the trade to get a feel?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 27, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think so
Contrary to popular opinion, they’re not stupid, and if they trhought there was no chance of re-signing Holliday I doubt they do the deal. And I know Boras has this boogey-man rep, but they managed to have a pretty painless negotiation for Lohse.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 11:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
And I know Boras has this boogey-man rep, but they managed to have a pretty painless negotiation for Lohse.
The Lohse contract is probably not one you want to hold up as the blueprint for a “Boras-might-not-fuck-the-Cardinals-up-the-ass” deal.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if the economy hadn't plummeted
that contract wouldn’t look nearly as awful.
we paid him the going rate for a pitcher with his kind of numbers, then the economy collapsed and the going rate for a pitcher like him dropped substantially.
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
the general consensus when the deal was announced was that it wasn’t a very good one. I don’t think it’s awful but Boras certainly got the absolute maximum he could’ve got, IMO. I don’t recall anyone saying “wow, that’s a good deal!” when it occurred.
Also, Lohse has got a full no-trade clause (I think) which is a really, really bad thing to give a middle-of-the-rotation guy when you’re a mid-market team.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The deal is market value
And looks pretty good when compared to Suppan since he’s been in Milwaukee
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 11:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Not market value
According to the 2008-2009 hot stove market. I think it was probably overlong by 25% and overdollared by 25%. (I don’t know if “overdollared” is a word.) It was the first offseason pitching contract and the market demonstrated a tepidnous about middle-to-back-of-the-rotation starters.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 2008 hot stove market value
Was exactly the same as the 07 one.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The one where Kyle Lohse got a 1-year, $4.5MM deal after
posting a FIP of 4.53? After 2008, his career FIP was 4.53, as well. Sure, he had one year of a 3.89 FIP for St. Louis, but there really wasn’t any reason—other than Duncan Kool-Aid—to think that he wasn’t about a 4.50 FIPing pitching. Lo and behold, this year his FIP is 4.44. And we get to watch that 4.50 FIP for 3 more seasons after this.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He projects to have a 3.92 FIP the rest of the season
Which is about a 3 WAR player in 200 innings, which is abut 13 million in value. When you consider age decline and regression, his deal is almost perfect.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A bit confused
Are you giving us his entire season’s WAR based on an overall FIP of 3.92? Or, are you giving us this season’s WAR based on the final two month’s FIP and his season’s total IP? I’m a bit confused. Because, his projection is for 2009 is for 130 IP total. His adjusted ZiPS overall FIP is 4.14. Now, that’ll make his overall value close to this year’s salary of $7.4MM. However, moving forward, I don’t think he meets a $12MM value in Year 4 or, for that matter, in Year 3, either.
Furthermore, his Baseball Prospectus long-term forecast doesn’t project him to throw over 160 innings in any of the next 3 years. If that’s true, durability, which up to now has been one of his biggest values, has become a weakness. If he doesn’t throw 200 innings, he doesn’t reach a value equivalent to his salary, IMO, and may not even do that if he throws 200 innings.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ZIPS RoS projections
Are essentially an estimate of each players current true talent level going forward. So while Lohse may put up a 4.14 FIP this year in total, we should expect him to be about a 3.90 FIP in the future.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So,
you’re saying over the course of the remainder of the season, he’s projected to FIP 3.90.
What about the 200 IP? The ZiPS RoS prjections have him projected to throw 59 IP, which would give him 131 or so IP for the rest of the year. I don’t think that’s going to get him to 3 WAR. Am I off-base?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This year, he won't reach 3 WAR
But what I am trying to say is that he is likely a 3 WAR pitcher in future seasons.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to Disagree
Last year, he was worth over $14MM, because he threw 200 innings and FIP’d 3.89. He makes between $9MM and $10MM next season, a year I believe that he may equal his salary in terms of value, but I just don’t see him reaching $12MM in value in year 3 or 4. One of the pluses in his column was his lack of injuries. Now, this year, as he is bitten by the injury bug. I worry that this is the beginning of a recurring problem. I think he’s going to be closer to his career FIP of 4.50 than his 2008 FIP of 3.89 as the contract progresses.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s going to be closer to his career FIP of 4.50 than his 2008 FIP of 3.89 as the contract progresses.
You seem to be missing the point of ZIPS RoS projections. In addition to literally projecting how each player will do the rest of the season, they are essentially an estimate of each players current true talent level.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then,
why would you use that to project his value in Year 4 of his contract?
I conceded that Lohse would probably meet his 2009 salary ($7+MM) by the end of the year. My problem is not with his 2009 salary, my problem is with the contract’s length of 4 years and his $12+MM salary in years 3 and 4 of the contract. I don’t think his 2009 true talent level will be his 2011 or 2012 true talent level. Lohse’s true talent level, today, is probably a 3.90-to-4.00 FIP, as evidenced by his ZIPS RoS projection, which covers the 2009 season. Today, Lohse is 30 years old. When he’s 33, I don’t think his true talent level is a FIP of ~ 4.00 and 200 IP in a season.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course
You would apply and regression as well. I think you are supposed to take .5 WAR per year of his projected WAR total. So if Lohse projects to be worth 2 WAR this year and 3 WAR next year, he would be worth 2.5 WAR the year after and 2 WAR the year after that. That’s about 8.5 WAR in 4 seasons, which works out to a contract value of about 40 million assuming a 10% inflation in cost per win.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hadn't computed the inflation in.
But I even feel that a 2-WAR projection for Year 4 may be overly rosy for Lohse. Of course, my post-steroids era perceptions may be off-base there, too. I’m very worried about sustained performance past Age 32 in general.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
market value = not very good for a mid-market team
market value for Matt Holliday is $25m/yr+.
You want to pay Matt Holliday 25 million bucks a year?
Also, I think it’s a stretch to say Lohse will return 9 WAR over the 4 years of that contract. He’s half a year (in his prime) into it and he’s not up to 1WAR yet (I don’t think). He should be around that value by the end of it but there’s not a huge amount of upside. IF he stays healthy, IF he pitches kinda like he’s done the last year or two, he’ll be about market value. Which, like I said, is not very good for a mid-market team.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
market value = not very good for a mid-market team
The definition of “market value” is what the average teams pays per win. A mid market teams payroll essentially represents the average teams payroll.
Therefore, by the transitive property, market value = exact value for a mid-market team
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you want to get guys
at below market value. Like Felonius said, we’re certainly not paying “market” value for Pujols or Holliday, the only teams that could afford to pay everyone market value would be teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Cubs.
So no, I don’t think it represents what the Cardinals should be paying. If we don’t have players signed to deals that are better than market value (like Wainwright’s) then we can’t field a competitive team.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously paying below market value is great
But paying exactly market value is OK. It certainly won’t cripple your franchise, as long as you have enough players signed under market value.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the whole key
as long as you have enough players signed under market value.
And that’s exactly what bgh is saying. Paying everyone market value isn’t a successful way to run a franchise. You need a good mix of both market value and below market value. Even if Lohse’s contract is market value, that doesn’t change the fact that we could be paying him 25% less and have a better deal.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously
I’m just saying a market value contract isn’t awful.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nor did I argue it was
also, I would definitely take the “under” on Lohse returning market value on that contract. We’re betting on 2008 (a career year) being Lohse’s true talent level. I just think it’s more likely he’ll be worth less than the $40m we’re paying him than more. There’s also very little ceiling above that – the absolute maximum we’ll get out of Lohse in any one year is about 3 wins, so at most we can be in about a 3 win “profit” on that deal, even if he hits his absolute best projections. That’s a pretty crappy maximum profit on an expensive long-term contract.
Also, we threw in a no-trade clause. I dunno what the detrimental value of that is in cash terms, but I’m betting it’s >$5m, compared to a contract without it. If we need payroll relief in 2011 he would be one of our best options to salary dump.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 4:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I’m not convinced such decisions are context neutral. Whilst an average player (2 WAR) is worth ~$10m/yr, if there are cheaper options out there, it’s a bad contract. You can nearly always employ average pitchers for less than that – it’s just the Carlos Silvas and Barry Zitos of this world that skew the balancing point.
Last off-season, we had not real incentive to sign Lohse as early as we did (so I’m not buying the “didn’t know about the economy” thing because it’s our own fault for biting too early), and we could’ve had Kawakami (a similar pitcher) for one less year and $24m, or even someone like Wolf on a much cheaper, short-term deal.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 4:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The definition of "market value" is what the average teams pays per win. A mid market teams payroll essentially represents the average teams payroll.
Therefore, by the transitive property, market value = exact value for a mid-market team
not if you want to be competitive. If we have an average payroll, and pay average market value for all our players, we will have an average team. 81 wins.
We need to be striding for “above average value” in all our transactions, IMO, not mediocrity.
Originally, milcardfan was arguing that we could get a good deal for Holliday despite him being a Boras client, and cited Lohse as an example. Given that we’re barely getting market value for Lohse, that would set Holliday’s contract around the $25m mark, which would be abysmal.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 4:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we paid him the going rate for a pitcher with his kind of numbers, then the economy collapsed and the going rate for a pitcher like him dropped substantially.
Isn’t that part of the problem? They were in such a rush to sign an average pitcher off of a career year that they never bothered to see what the FA pitchers market was going to be.
As for the economy-flopping thing…I’m no financial expert, but my best friend and best man is and he was saying that he and most of his colleagues believed something severe was imminent. They weren’t sure how bad anything was going to be (opinions ranged from cataclysm to minor setback) but nevertheless they felt something was going to happen. Then he went into some long blah-blah-blah about this and that and buying Park Place and Mediterranean and stuff…but the point is that people out there with expertise felt that the economy was going to take a shock.
Note—none of the above overrules the possibility that I am an idiot and have no idea what my friend was talking about and completely misinterpreted his genius-speak.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had they not re-signed him
There would have been pitchforks and torches assembled down at the Musial statue. After letting Suppan walk, along with the Carp/Clement/Mulder fiascoes, of 2007 and 2008 they needed to get a proven innings guy that could complement Wainwright and Carp.
It’s not always about money, sometimes it’s about public relations to keep fans coming to the ballpark, which gives the team…more…money.
Hmm, maybe it always is about money, in one way or another.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't sense any sort of public demand for Lohse
As Suppan leaving showed, committing large sums of money to aging pitchers is not wise. Can you imagine being stuck with Suppan today? And for that money? Ugh. What signing back-end rotation types to deals like Lohse’s and Suppan’s does is to hamstring you in acquiring or re-signing truly impact players. In Years 3 and 4 of the Lohse contract, I fear we’ll be feeling an awful lot like Milwaukee fans when Suppan takes the hill.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we remember it differently
Look, I’m with you on the Suppan deal/overpaid back end rotation guys in general. But Lohse had come off a really good season, and the rotation, had Lohse not been re-signed, was Wainwright and 4 question marks. Lohse brought stability at a reasonable price, IMO. He’s going to give you a lot of innings and keep the team in the game 4 out of 5 starts.
They needed to get another starter had they not re-signed Lohse, and the “low hanging fruit” philosophy had blown up in their face (Clement, Mulder). I think that the Lohse signing was almost as much a PR move as it was signing a need position.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s going to give you a lot of innings and keep the team in the game 4 out of 5 starts.
But he hasn’t. He’s been injured for much of the season. And, chances are, he might be again when he’s 33 and we’re paying him $12m.
That’s the risk with signing average-ish pitchers, at their peak, to long-term deals. It’s not a very efficient way to acquire talent. It’s relatively high risk, and relatively low reward.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 5:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Supp/Lohse...Apples and Oranges
Suppan was sort of a beloved figure also. He was the semi-lovable guy who wore Hawai’ian shirts on days he pitched and stuff, but who also slayed the mighty Clemens and slammed the door on the Mets in the playoffs and helped win a ring and all that stuff. So simply letting Suppan walk after all he had accomplished in STL seemed to an unsophisticated fan an episode of nasty cheapitude…it wasn’t, it was the right decision, but the public didn’t and wasn’t going to see it that way. Lohse, on the other hand, did not have that subjective connection with people in my estimation.
Now, with that said I think that Lohse is a good fit for this team, but they were in such a piss-down-their-legs hurry to resign the guy that they didn’t bother to see what the market was going to be. The economy flopping and the subsequent stopper-out-of-the-tub of non-elite player contracts suggests they could have brought Lohse back on a more team-friendy contract, and even if that hadn’t happened there still may have been an opportunity to shorten the contract or lessen the money when it became more clear how other teams would value him. Basically, the Cardinals got in a big-damn hurry and outbid themselves.
Either way, there are some significant ramifications of this contract that have to be dealt with for the next several years.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, that was the last big deal before the collapse
Granted, if “nobody” saw it coming, then I don’t think we can deduct hindsight points.
I’m concerned that them being in a goshderntarnations hurry is part of a larger pattern of organizational philosophy.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sir, your diction please!! Substitute "definitely" for "probably".
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 27, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said,
I was on a mobile phone. I typed in definitely, I swear I did.
Definitely typed in definitely.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really think Welly is still in the rotation because Tony refuses to admit he's wrong
I actually think if we brought boggs or hawk up to make the NOlonel’s next start, we could effectively improve our rotation and our bullpen…i know the todd had a terrible relief outing against the cubs, but i really believe that in a one inning stint, he could max his fastball up to the mid-90’s and mix in his slider and/or change to get three people out in low-leverage, facing the bottom of the order spots
Seriously though, tony needs to get a clue
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LaDunc is right-
Welly is still the best option. He’s the only one who has done it at the major league level (if, as DanUp says you can still remember when). On the local Phillies broadcast Gary Matthews said it looked like his velocity had decreased from the mid to low 90’s. None of the options is very good. The others have all had chances and fumbled them. My concern is Lohse. He looked awful Saturday and hasn’t resembled last year’s consistent 15 game winner. If he comes around and the other three stay consistent they’ll win the division going away with the current lineup.
by vinniefromjersey on Jul 27, 2009 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wellemeyer hasn't looked good in a looong time.
meanwhile Mitchell Boggs has been lights out in his past 3/4 starts in AAA. It’s really a no brainer.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 27, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't PK
have some kind of scoreless streak in AAA?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AA
Philles announcers about Toronto:
"Well they go out West after this series, this weekend, against the Tampa Bay Rays"
by RiverRat on Jul 27, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tomatoo
Tomatooo
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are the same
You just held the long O longer the second time.
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
aa vs aaa
is what I was going for
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially when we are going to need to know what Boggs can do in an MLB rotation before next year
Or before the offseason, really. I mean, how else are we going to know how aggressively to pursue FA pitchers this offseason? Kinda depends on what we already have, right?
by Ray Lankford on Jul 27, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how is boggs a worse option than welly
and how did he fumble his chance? because he walked a few too many people and couldn’t go deep into games? sounds a lot like wellenmeyer and boggs doesn’t, you know, give up a two run homer EVERY INNING
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only answer
is that at one time Welly did it in the bigs, and Boggs hasn’t. Remember, this is not my idea, but my interpretation. I’d just as soon see Boggs again because I don’t think it matters. If the Cards can get to the postseason they’re in good shape, both with starters and lineup for short series. Does the fact that Welly is making good money (3+ mil I believe) factor into this?
by vinniefromjersey on Jul 27, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a horrible rationale...
is that at one time Welly did it in the bigs, and Boggs hasn’t.
So I guess we should have signed a 38 year old centerfielder in the offseason instead of bringing up Rasmus? How can you “do it in the bigs” when you never get a chance to? Boggs has exactly 4 starts at the big league level — if Wellemeyer had been judged on his first 4 starts in the big leagues he’d be bagging groceries right now.
I’d just as soon see Boggs again because I don’t think it matters.
That’s exactly our point. It doesn’t matter this year because Welley’s been so terrible. But we could make the best of a bad situation and stick him in the bullpen to see if he can help us there instead of rolling him out to fail every fifth day…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why couldn't Boggs go deep into games?
Could it be because LaRussa had him on a ridiculously short leash (measured in cm not feet)?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
Wellemeyer went 6 yesterday but he should’ve been yanked after 4 when we were 3-2 down and he was looking like giving up a gopherball practically every AB.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The suggestion that TLR would use any system of measurement that is new-fangled
Like “cm” Is utterly preposterous! Long live hectares, hands, fathoms, cables, et al!
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 27, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Listen here Mo
We need to get Holliday because our outfield depth is not even a league!
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Holliday stands head and shoulders above the other men of Judah
He’s a full cubit taller than the next tallest man. Why, he might weigh a full 15 stones, all muscle!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only someone with a Prince Valiant haircut could speak those words
Oh wait…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And who loves animals
He’s kind of a cross between Prince Valiant and Mark Trail.
Walruses are unpredictable and can be dangerous! Let’s admire them from afar!
Matt Holliday is proven! It should be protected!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel we should consult our esteemed bovine
for a second opinion.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they will not last a fortnight!!
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously hope (and doubt) that the "going deep into games" is what's holding him back right now
I mean, it’s not like Wellemeyer is going deep into games, and as of a few days ago our bullpen had the least IP of any team in the National League. I think we’ll survive. (Not that I really want to lean harder on the bullpen, which scares me a bit—I’m just saying that this isn’t 2007 anymore, when the bullpen was required to pitch about 6 innings per game.)
by mojowo11 on Jul 27, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree for a couple of reasons
- Mitchell Boggs has a 3.59 FIP in 4 big league starts this season. His last four starts in Memphis have been lights out as well. He’s going to be in the mix as a 4th or 5th starter next year, so why not give him Wellemeyer’s starts for the rest of the season and see what he can do. He can’t be any worse!
- Brad Thompson’s been better to this point in the season in his limited starts than Wellemeyer has. If you remove his bullpen mop-ups where he’s gotten hammered, Thompson (as a starting pitcher) has an FIP that’s about half a run better than Todd does this season. Neither of them can go more than 6 innings (if that) in a start, so why not move Welley to the bullpen, where he can come in for an inning and crank up the gas? Thompson doesn’t have as much value as Welley in the bullpen, so why not make use of each in a better situation?
- Blake Hawksworth has been solid for the Cardinals in relief duty and has posted an FIP of 3.08 at Memphis. How has he “fumbled his chance” to get a start? He hasn’t been given the opportunity to start!
Look, all of these guys are going to be in the mix for a rotation spot next spring — why not find out if they can get major league hitters out right now? Thompson’s already on the roster and the other two are already on the 40 man, so what the fuck are we waiting for? We have a sub-replacement level pitcher throwing every five days when we could put out some prospect pitchers who have legit upside as #3 or #4 starters and who are tearing up AAA right now.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Logic
Look, all of these guys are going to be in the mix for a rotation spot next spring — why not find out if they can get major league hitters out right now? Thompson’s already on the roster and the other two are already on the 40 man, so what the fuck are we waiting for? We have a sub-replacement level pitcher throwing every five days when we could put out some prospect pitchers who have legit upside as #3 or #4 starters and who are tearing up AAA right now.
Despite his training as a lawyer, TLR does not operate that way. Todd Wellemeyer is a Proven Veteran, nevermind what he has Proven (i.e., that he is poor at pitching). We can’t afford to run out Unproven Youngsters.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
TLR has allowed something like eleventeen youngsters make their debut this season and we’re not even to roster expansions yet.
by paposse on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A second look
TLR has allowed Wellemeyer to make something like eleventeen starts. More than one of those youngsters showed enough to merit a second opportunity in St. Louis (Walters and Boggs), with the possibility of replacing Todd Wellemeyer.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
but not in his mind. (or whomever makes that call)
My point just being he’s given lots of youngsters a look this year at several positions. He disagrees with us as to whether any are better than Wellemeyer but he has given them shots at it.
by paposse on Jul 27, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course...
..that’s largely due to injuries, not because the staff feels a youngster should be in the rotation.
by paposse on Jul 27, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
TLR’s hand was forced in many instances.
Furthermore, he should receive no credit for his assessment of Wellemeyer versus those youngsters. His judgment is tinged with a bias toward the veteran, it would seem in this instance. And, if you’re trying to Win Now, which every club is trying to do, then why on earth would you allow Wellemeyer to start another game?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What did Boggs do to fumble his chance?
I was very impressed by his (exceedingly brief) stint earlier this season. He throws harder than Worthlessmeyer, anyways, and has a better head on his shoulders.
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
If you only play guys who “have done it at the ML level” you will never have new players and eventually MLB will die b/c teams just kept recycling washed-up vets until they’ve all retired…
Obviously that’s extreme…but if you look at the numbers you will see that Todd Wellemeyer has been an abomination and if you don’t think that Mitchell Boggs can be better than one of the worst starters in baseball than you, my friend, need an extra dose of optimism.
To me, this team simply can’t afford to piss away every fifth start hoping The Colonel can turn it around. They’re in a 4-way dogfight for the division crown and every game counts. It’s possible that Boggs would do worse, but it’s also possible he could do better and the team just doesn’t know until they try it out. It’s why I hate to hear TLR say “There aren’t better options” b/c he’s unwilling to try. A known mediocrity is always better to him than an unknown commodity.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of minor leaguers..
David Freese seems to be rebounding nicely from surgery. He’s batting .500 through 19 at bats between Palm Beach and Springfield. Showing a bit of power too with a couple doubles and a homer.
I’m not sure he has anything to offer this season but look for him to be a cheap 3rd baseman next year or backup depending on whether or not DeRo is resigned.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 27, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I think the guy is a little too negative above...
Rasmus is in center, Freese/Mather/Craig makes signing DeRosa optional, Descalso is waiting to play 2nd, Garcia and Boggs will be legit candidates for the rotation. That’s not bad…
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Freese
but forgive my skepticism on a 26-year-old third basemen being able to hit single-A pitching. If he was struggling at Palm Beach and Springfield, THAT would be a major issue.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know, I guess I'm
more of a fan of “less potential but more certainty” (Wallace, Todd, Mortensen, etc) prospeects than I am a fan of “sky-high potential but good chance of flaming out” (Miller, the Dominican prospects, etc.) prospects.
by craig3410 on Jul 27, 2009 9:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not me
i like high upside , star potential more than guys who have a better chance of success at the majors but only at a slightly above replacement value level
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt
Sure, you need a good mix of both, but I’d rather have 7 guys who have the potential to be an ace pitcher or a 5 WAR position player than 7 guys who have upside as a #4 starter or utility infielder but are valuable because they have a better chance at realizing their potential. If I get 1 5 WAR stud out of that first group of 7, it’s possible he’ll be worth as much or more to my ballclub than the other group of 7 put together.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I go back and forth on this
I think you need a mix. Guys who have middle-of-the-rotation potential have value. Not paying your #3, #4, and #5 starters a combined $20MM in salary means you can fill other slots. Furthermore, they can also make pretty good relievers, allowing for a cheap fill of the big-league bullpen. When you’ve got 13 pitchers…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that assessment
but if I had a choice between 7 guys with 5 WAR+ potential and 7 guys with 1 WAR potential who have a better shot at making the big leagues, I’ll take the 5 WAR+ guys every time.
If you’re paying your top starters $400,000 a year (see Lincecum, Tim and Cain, Matt), you can spend a lot of money elsewhere too!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
If it’s an either/or proposition. However, since drafts generally, don’t work out that way. I’d take 3 high ceiling guys and 2 middle ceiling guys as my mixture.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As would I
I don’t think we disagree on this issue with each other, but we do disagree with the original comment.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seven 5 WAR players...
If you take the seven 5 WAR players, several could not play up to their potential and you’d still end up with perhaps a couple 1 WAR players but if one of those guys pans out, you’re better off. It doesn’t make sense to me to look for 4th and 5th spot in the rotation guys. Those guys are a dime a dozen.
by OldieWan on Jul 27, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunately, recent history shows that not to be the case.
our 4th and 5th guys have been $11.5 M this year and have been comparably expensive in prior years.
i wouldn’t want to draft SOLELY to get 4th and 5th starters, but they have substantial value. it’s also much easier to get a 4th/5th starter. if having home-grown 4th & 5th types means you have an extra $10M to spend on the top of the rotation, that’s a big deal. depth has a role.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree but,
I get the feeling that we’ve been drafting SOLELY to get 4th and 5th starters.
by OldieWan on Jul 27, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i even acknowledged that wasn't a great plan. it was the "dime a dozen"
comment that rubbed the wrong way.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One factor not mentioned
in these deals is Albert Pujols. I kind of alluded to it in an above post, but his attitude about how competitive the BOTB are will go a long way in determining whether or not he signs an extension. I appreciate the importance of young players and a healthy farm system, but one of the reasons you have a healthy farm system is to go out and get solid to all-star major league talent when the opportunity presents itself. I applaud Mo for pulling the trigger and sending a message to Albert and the team that they will get them what they need to win. That is something that you can’t really quantify IMHO.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 9:55 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
But
You don’t want to turn yourself into the Mets or Cubs, who’s ballclubs are full of aging, expensive veterans who can’t stay healthy and have no prospects in their farm systems to be able to make a move for anybody. The Mets have exhausted their farm system over the last couple of years to acquire players that they hoped would push them into championship contention. Instead, they’re below .500 in possibly the worst division in baseball (outside of Philly) and have a DL that looks like the who’s who of the 2004 All-Star team.
The Cubs have exactly two prospects with any kind of value — Samardzjia, who has a full no trade clause, and Vitters. They are the only two guys in the Cubs system that crack most people’s top 200 players. The Mets system is even worse. They should be selling at the deadline this year to put some talent back in their farm system, but they insist that they’re buying, which will make their farm system worse.
I agree, you do need to use future talent to acquire present talent. But when your team operates on a budget around $100M, you need some of that future talent to play for your team to keep costs down so you can afford to go out and sign big level talents to big money deals. Where would the Cardinals be without Wainwright, Molina, Skip, Pujols, and Rasmus? We drafted four of those guys and they all made the big leagues and are significant contributors to our team.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we agree
It’s important to have balance and not end up like the 2009 Mets…or the 2007 Cardinals, for that matter. I just think the Holliday and DeRosa deals don’t skew the balance. There’s enough talent on the farm remaining to complement long term deals to Pujols, Holliday, Adam, etc., without having a stratospheric payroll of aging stars.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 10:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Well
You’ll be surprised when Jay Jackson, Andrew Cashner and Starlin Castro start hitting top 100 lists. The Cubs have more prospects than you know.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm
I doubt Jay Jackson will ever crack a top 100 list. He’s mediocre, but in an otherwise mediocre farm system, he looks okay I guess.
Cashner is a reliever, so while he may crack a top 100 list, his value is minimal.
Castro I could see becoming top 20 type prospect. Putting up very good numbers in the FSL as a 19 year old, but it’s still too early to make any judgements.
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you just keep waiting then...
nothing like famous last words from a Cub fan. Wasn’t Felix Pie supposed to be the second coming as well? He’s really turned out quite well, and he WAS a top 20 prospect. None of the guys you mentioned are cracking a top 100 list this season and Castro is really the only guy who has a chance of that.
Cashner is a reliever and has pretty minimal value — he doesn’t even have stuff as good as guys you threw into trades last season. Jay Jackson will never crack a top 100 list, unless there’s someone ranking the top 100 mediocre players in the minor leagues. The Cardinals have 3 guys at A+ or AA that project to be as good as Jackson does, and none of them have been hurrying up our talent board.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 27, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget about Corey Patterson.
He was supposed to be awesome. Or Jerome Walton. He was going to be great too.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 27, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You couldn't have a more perfect sig
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Met's actually have a decent farm
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Javier Vasquez
Since we’re going for broke, anyone think we should trade for him? Sure would answer our Wellemeyer questions.
The Braves are willing to move him for offense if Tim Hudson looks good in rehab. Think they’d be interested in Ankiel and/or Glaus (Glaus could platoon with Kotchman)?
Probably only if Ankiel keeps hitting like the last few games, and Glaus look good in rehab too…but I can dream.
Pretty much FML any time Todd Wellemeyer touches a baseball.
by Cardinals645 on Jul 27, 2009 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like Dan said,
We don’t need to add another #1 starter to improve our #5, we need to add a serviceable #5 starter. And they’d never be interested in Ankiel + Glaus for Vasquez. Nobody in the world would say those values are equal
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha
No, I suppose not. But I can still dream right? RIGHT?!
I do think we’re better off adding a top of the rotation guy though. Adding a serviceable #5 isn’t really going to do much this late in the season, except of course put a new face on our pain.
Pretty much FML any time Todd Wellemeyer touches a baseball.
by Cardinals645 on Jul 27, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have 3 top of the rotation guys right now
A 4th would cost WAY more than adding a replacement level #5 starter. We simply don’t have the prospects to spare (anymore)
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That said
I agree that having 4 sub 3.00 ERA guys would be fantastic for this team, haha. It’ll just cost too much to do
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's also a bit pointless
if we acquire a new pitcher, they’re replacing Welly/AAA guys as the 5th starter. With only a couple of months left, and plenty of off-days, I think the #5 guy only starts something like 8 more times (or at least we can manipulate it that way). Then, in the post-season, our rotation will be Carp-Waino-Pineiro, with Lohse as the 4th guy. The 4th arm usually only starts a maximum of once per series; even if we make it to the WS, chances are that Lohse has started once, or perhaps twice, in the whole post-season. And Lohse is a solid enough pitcher, so to improve on him we’d have to get someone excellent (like Vasquez).
It’s just not worth it, really.
What we should have done is gone and got a FAT starter earlier in the year when we had both Welly AND puppykicker in the rotation. Chubby Chad Gaudin, who owns a career 4.4-ish FIP, with a 4.1 FIP in 2008 and a 3.7 FIP in 2009, was available earlier in the year for the league minimum when the Cubs cut him. Given the choice between San Diego (where he ended up) and St Louis, I’m sure he’d have come here if we’d wanted him. The big issue here is that we’re (as I said earlier) a very inefficient ballclub with a poor understanding of Freely Available Talent and a wasteful attitude towards our own assets.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
was just curious, so I double-checked
We acquired Jeff Weaver on July 5 that year. Looks like he made 15 starts for the Cards in regular season. So yeah… it’s a little late in the season, even if they’re going by that ‘reasoning’.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is weaver available?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
both of them?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really see it that way...
Adding Vasquez probably adds at least 1 more win over Wellemeyer, plus it helps fill out the rotation for the next two years (Carp, Wainwright, Vazquez, Lohse is a pretty incredible top 4).
But more immediately, I would personally start him over Pineiro in the playoffs. I know, Joel’s been incredible to this point, but in the postseason a starter’s K/9 is a stronger indicator of success, especially given that Vazquez’ ERA is just as low as Joel’s.
Pretty much FML any time Todd Wellemeyer touches a baseball.
by Cardinals645 on Jul 27, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vazquez only helps in 2010
he’s signed next year for 11.5m.
He probably does add 1 win the rest of the way, but the cost would be steep.
The Braves traded Brent Lillibridge (a decent shortstop prospect whose bat has stalled with a high K rate in the high minors, think T Greene/Ryan), Tyler Flowers (23-yo catcher with a lot of upside, OPSed .900+ in AA last year. He’s probably as good as any prospect left in our system), plus a lower-level 3B and a fireballing reliever with questionable control. A comparable package for us might be something like Pete Kozma, Darryl Jones, Virgil Hill and Francisco Samuel.
Also, the Braves are kinda in “win now” mode so it’s debatable that they’d even trade him.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how crazy is it
That the cardinals have 3 starters with ERA’s under 3 and one of them is named Joel Pineiro?
they should keep signing him to 1 year deals, so it’s always a contract year
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And make the WBC an annual affair
So he can keep getting rejected by Puerto Rico, since he sucks and he’s not worthy to pitch for his homeland.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as the infield goes
“If we get Kahlil Greene and Troy Glaus back, it would be like trading for Kahlil Greene and Troy Glaus without trading for them. However, we’d still have to give some one up by sending down two players but you’re not really giving them up because they’ll still be in your system and you can bring them up any time. Fuck Molina. – Al Hrabosky
I''m a Jenius!
If Adam Kennedy can make a MLB roster, anyone can!
by gibbons on Jul 27, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i Think Yer All Udderestimating.....
…pornstache LaRue, and what his facial hair influence means to this organization in terms of scraggly, fuzzy mustaches. if KBot had a handlebar ‘stache, he’d be hitting at least .286.
;=8)
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 27, 2009 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So you're saying LaRue would be hitting sub-.100 if he didn't have the stache?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaStache is a giver
not a taker. he uses his stache for the greater good of the team, since he doesn’t play much.
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
the mother theresa of backup catchers, he is
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Mother Theresa
have a little higher SLG% though?
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 27, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
VEB since the trade....

I may need to take a week off from this site. It is affecting my mood.
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I think Tony's rant
about both Ryan and us (the fans), affected us as well.
I''m a Jenius!
If Adam Kennedy can make a MLB roster, anyone can!
by gibbons on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kind of think if Lugo works out,
The futile Brendan Ryan will either be made available in a trade or shipped back to Memphis.
I find his goofy presence delightful. Of course, that’s what has him in trouble too. LaRussa’s on a roll; why stop now? A fellow that can play shortstop as well as Ryan can surely has some value, no? Go get John Grabow from the Pirates. They would like to have a stop gap shortstop so they can move Jack Wilson.
LaRussa would have another left hander and be rid of an irritant. Grabow is a left handed relief pitcher-not a loogy-that would have all kinds of new match up possibilities. I propose this because I really don’t want to see another player live his life here in the doghouse. It’s just not right.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grabow is a LOOGY more or less.
He’s just used as a set-up guy by Pittsburgh because their bullpen is abysmal, Capps aside. He’s probably no better than Reyes/Miller.
I really think trading Ryan for him would be very bad. We don’t have anyone else who can actually handle SS (I refuse to believe Lugo is still up to it, defensively) other than Tyler Greene and his pathetic bat.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't it say something
that there is a special TLR subtext to every decision now? IOW, we can’t just evaluate ideas based on good baseball sense, we have to factor in TLR’s personality tics, grudges, and wierd attitudes about roster construction?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 27, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Bob Ross screaming into a mic?
He give up on happy little trees?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
happy little trees fall on houses
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ian Snell anyone?
if tony’s determined to use Wellemeyer over someone like Boggs, why not see what Snell costs. He’s in AAA so the price tag can’t be that high. Plus, he’s still young
by kalmavet on Jul 27, 2009 11:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he is rumoured to be available
and has a nice contract. I’d be very keen on seeing what it would take. He could be our #4 starter next year, or (with his FB/breaking ball hard-throwing combo) potentially convert to be a right-handed fireman in the pen, which we’re probably going to need. Either way, there’s a lot of upside in the guy and he doesn’t seem to be fitting in at Pittsburgh right now…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rumoured to be available?
He’s on the pirates, isn’t he? Of course he’s available!
I''m a Jenius!
If Adam Kennedy can make a MLB roster, anyone can!
by gibbons on Jul 27, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huntington has said that he realizes teams are trying to buy low on Snell
And then he’s not going to let that happen.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah i that complicates it
i don’t wanna him unless it’s an aramis ramirez like return for pitt—ie, nothing
by kalmavet on Jul 27, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huntingdon saying that he's not going
To sell low on a player is like an alcoholic saying he’s gonna stop drinking tomorrow.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 11:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
hey,
it’s amost 11:00, and I haven’t had a drink yet
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 27, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're confusing Huntington with the past Pirates' regime
I think he did very well selling high on Morgan and McClouth. It’s a seller’s market out there, and he realizes that
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
by mysterui on Jul 27, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
colour me unimpressed with the McClouth haul
they got less for 5 years of nice-contract McClouth than Oakland did for 2 months of so-so-contract Matt Holliday. Holliday’s probably only 1-2 wins better anyhow.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 27, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The McClouth hall was better than the Holliday one
Just ask erik.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, possibly, I guess I can swallow that
but it should’ve been MUCH better than the Holliday one. 5 cheap years of McLouth >>>>>> 2 months of Holliday. I’d have traded the Holliday haul, perhaps even plus a little bit more, for McClouth in a heartbeat. I’m not so sure about trading Wallace, Mort and SP for Holliday…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa, I've never heard that idea around here before!
heheheh
by sdrone on Jul 27, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Bannister is awesome
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2009/7/27/964071/brian-bannister-is-my-hero#comments
Click on the link in the FanShot to hear the podcast.
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
awesome.
It’s almost as cool as the ussmariner fixing king felix.
Fuck you and your lawn, old man! Go to hardees at 4 in the morning for your coffee!
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
everyone go listen to this.
this is great to hear from a pitcher.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by ilrosso on Jul 27, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in other news
chocolate ratons went up two grams this week
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 27, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just hope we are drinking Victory Gin come October
On second thought, I guess we will have it either way
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 27, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We hit the phillies
at the wrong time in our rotation. Once Albert and Yadi rejoin the team, this lineup will cruise. Welly will survive with 6 runs of support in most games. The team needs to enforce a curfew with some of its bachelors which I think would help.
I look for the Manny/ Dodgers to wake up Albert in front of his faithful. He will go OPO tonight and turn on something later off their bull pen.
by OperaCard on Jul 27, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The team needs to enforce a curfew with some of its bachelors which I think would help.
Jesus
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You said it, man!!!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree completely Viva
If more would live Albert’s indisciplined life style, attending church regularly, they wouldn’t look like they’re hung over when the take the field for an afternoon game. And thats not just the Bachelors.
by OperaCard on Jul 27, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This reminds me...
My stripper gf wants me to “pickup” her stripper friend for us. True story. Enjoy church.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
don't bash church
i agree operacard is being too intense, but no need to bash church
if this isn’t what you meant, then forget i said anything
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not bashing shit
i just wanted John Q. Biblethumper to know what i’ll be doing while he’s on his high horse at church :)
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
by rocKStark5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i believe its John C. Biblethumper
but thats a small detail
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because people go to church
they are on high horses? wow.
I dont think this in any way relates to BASEBALL; of which this blog is about.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not that.
It’s that Opera keeps bringing up church and religion. I think rockstark5 was giving him a taste of his own medicine.
It’s all in bad taste, though. We should not discuss religion.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 27, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
She's a witch!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
burn er
…sorry spants. it’s a reflex.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but
saying
i just wanted John Q. Biblethumper to know what i’ll be doing while he’s on his high horse at church :)or
This reminds me…My stripper gf wants me to "pickup" her stripper friend for us. True story. Enjoy church.is intentional in what it says. I dont see where saying something like that, here on this blog, has anything to do with anything related to baseball.
Except of course, bashing those that attend church. It has nothing to do with baseball. Also, youre right about OperaCard.
does this make any sense?
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
Let’s just move on, though.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 27, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Consider:
The initial point about church was disparaging to non-churchgoers, lumping everyone except one player whose religion is extremely conspicuous, saying if they attended church,
they wouldn’t look like they’re hung over when the take the field for an afternoon game
High horse indeed.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 27, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I cant tell if this is directed to my comment, or another
I didnt say I agreed with what OC said. Like you say, it lumps the non-churchgoers in together. I know many, many people, that even though they dont attend church, regularly or irregularly, that wouldnt fit the mold that OC is trying to cast.
The same though, for what rockstark has said. Just because one goes to church, does not in fact mean that they are seated on a “high horse”, indeed.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you look, rockstar did say "he"
referring to OC specifically, and while he did call him “John Q Thumper” he didn’t say everyone who goes to church can suck it. OC was generalizing, but I don’t think the same can be said for RS
15=/=25
by hazel on Jul 27, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is really getting old
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eight year olds, Dude.
Philles announcers about Toronto:
"Well they go out West after this series, this weekend, against the Tampa Bay Rays"
by RiverRat on Jul 27, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I look for the Manny/ Dodgers to wake up Albert in front of his faithful.
Albert will only “wake up” b/c of Manny, not b/c he’s returning to form. Right.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 27, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
??????
The team needs to enforce a curfew with some of its bachelors which I think would help.
Do you know something we don’t? Do you have inside information?
Because if you don’t your comments go from mildly annoying, vague loads of unsubstantial and illogical slop to outright lie-filled internet slam-jobs.
Just saying…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if he's wcbw
then he has the Lohse connection
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 27, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
definitely
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
been saying this for a looooong time.
by goodymobb on Jul 27, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
then, Ive agreed with you for a looooong time.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
you should do a study on the relationship of marital status and team performance.
Don’t forget to control for age.
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Lohse and Wellemeyer had no business facing that lineup. It was brutal. Come to think of it, the bullpen got shellacked, too. We really to trade DJ Tools for a veteran reliever signed only through the end of this year. Then, we’ll be set.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 27, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Holliday trade would have been much more respectable,
if the A’s had given us Wuertz to go with him.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 27, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy crap yes
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto
I’d love to see Michael Worst crash and burn in a Cardinal uniform. His numbers this year are a complete mirage driven by career lows in hits, walks and HRs and a career high K rate. It won’t end well for any sucker who trades for him. Saturday was only the beginning ….
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not what a mirage is.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fine Mr Dictionary
It’s not an optical illusion or a French supersonic fighter-bomber either but I think you understood my meaning.
Perhaps I should have said career year or do you dispute that too?
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 27, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's having a career year
but calling it a mirage based on results isn’t the correct use of the term “mirage.” If his success is based on BABiP, LD%, etc, that’s a mirage.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What Alex said
Also, this:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/7/10/944659/expanding-on-harrys-whiff-rate
F%#& Billy Beane. Actually... I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 27, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wainwright
with the 5th best CB in baseball. I didn’t realize Gallardo’s had been so effective.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
#1 AND #2...
…on the lowest whiff rates for changeups? Our very own duo of Pineiro and Thompson.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching to contact!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why are you here?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um.
“career low in hits, walks, and HRs”
Normal BABIP of .309, sustainable LOB% of 74%, HR/9 in line with career rates at .95/9, HR/FB% 11% (career 10.4%).
K rate increases and walk rate decreases are controlled by the pitcher, therefore are based on skills and often sustainable.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 27, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
’d love to see Michael Worst crash and burn in a Cardinal uniform. His numbers this year are a complete mirage driven by career lows in hits, walks and HRs and a career high K rate.
haha. Translation: “Michael Wuertz’s numbers this year are a mirage, based on him improving his ability to do the three things that are unquestionnably in a pitcher’s control”.
Epic, epic fail.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question...
If we re-sign Lohse, keep Raz and Luds do we need DJ?
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
by Red Blazer on Jul 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lohse?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he means holliday, right?
i mean i know tony is all about versatility, but that would be too much even for him
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pitcher the the OF? he's done it before...
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 27, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm reasonably certain Tony's Dream Team is...
…Pujols, Molina, Ankiel, and 22 two-way players who pitch and hit. Maximum versatility.
Humerous thought here…imagine TLR coaching a tee-ball team. Talk about maximum versatility there…everyone can play anywhere b/c no one CAN play anywhere!!! Wait, what?
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so I'm pretty excited that I get to watch the game on espn tonight
sad to see all of our good prospects go (except for DJ, Shelby, etc) but this team is very exciting right now, it’s as if a whole new season has started
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 27, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
shelby isn't a prospect
until he gets signed
"I think he's the best hitter of all time. I think there has never been a better hitter than him. And I know I didn't see them all, but I just don't think there could be." - Adam Wainwright on The Mang
by bmorgan on Jul 27, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
I almost didn’t type his name but if they don’t sign him they will look like complete dumbasses (which I suppose isn’t out of the question)
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 27, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you miss yesterday's game?
I considered posting – it was on TBS.
Of course, it was disgusting.
by sdrone on Jul 27, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched it on tbs yesterday
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 27, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bernie's analogy at the PD is a good one
“The hitters’ OPS against Wellemeyer is .898, worst in the majors. It’s akin to Adrian Gonzalez (.900 OPS) taking every at-bat in a game against Wellemeyer.”
by bobeans on Jul 27, 2009 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh. My. God.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy crap.
Can someone show that to Duncan?
Just curious, what is Boggs’ ops against at the mlb level?
by paposse on Jul 27, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reason #393
….why Todd Wellemeyer should not be starting for this team.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Should be reason number 2
Right behind #1: He sucks
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's what my source are telling me, also.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think there must at least
1,000,000 reasons by now
by nmstar on Jul 27, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ouch
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 27, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'd do better just putting the ball on a tee and saying "There ya go big guy".
At least the tee wouldn’t cost as much.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Jul 27, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he pretty much turns every left-hander into Barry Bonds, too...
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is the same
The problem with Wellemeyer is the same problem we have with Tony approaching the FO and Farm System: They don’t seem to understand what is best for the organization going forward.
Todd Wellemeyer figuring it out doesn’t mean shit for this team. If Todd Wellemeyer figures it out for the next 2 months, who gives a crap? He’s awful and will be gone after this year. Wouldn’t it make more sense for Mitchell Boggs (who is burning his option clock, mind you) to try and figure it out over the last 2 months of the season?
Todd Wellemeyer is statistically the worst starter in baseball. It’s not even close. To continue to pretend that anyone in our organization would be worse than the worst pitcher in baseball is protectionist bullshit. The only reason Wellemeyer is still getting rope is because Todd was part of the feature story of ‘Dave Duncan’s huge success’ in USA Today.
They take it personally if Todd Wellemeyer fails. I take it personally when they actually let him pitch. It feels like an insult.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Sonnastine and Parra...
are starting again. As is Kazmir…
Point taken though. Welly is “their man.” We have a pretty good foursome though.
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those guys at least have upside, though.
What HL said about there being no reason to see if Welley turns it around is the difference.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of all qualified starters
Todd Wellemeyer in MLB:
Last in ERA
10th from last in FIP
Last in WHIP
14th from last in BB/9
Last (BY A MILE) in Opponent AVG
I’m confident in saying that the sum of the parts, Todd Wellemeyer is the worst starting pitcher in all of baseball.
AND WE ARE GOING TO GIVE HIM 3 MORE STARTS THAN ANYONE ELSE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN!
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soup, Bloop...
Owings, Cahill, Guthrie… They all have FIPs and xFIPS higher than our hero. Hell, Porcello has a higher FIP.
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With all of that said...
…In Todd Wellemeyer we are talking about a truly awful pitcher right now who, with about four exceptions this season, has been nothing but terrible this season. Mitchell Boggs could do worse, but he could better. If he does worse, we’re in no worse of a position and if he does better than the Cardinals have a better chance every fifth start.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The team's no worse off,
but Boggs’ development could be if he’s awful and is sent back down. Maybe. I’m just trying to defend the indefensible, I guess.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by ilrosso on Jul 27, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Boggs comes up and makes it, great.
If he fails then he is a known quantity, let him go to the pen and bring the heat or spend all of next season in AAA. We need to audition for the 5th spot next year, and starts where we are running a replacement level guy out there are a good opportunity.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and...
…with Cahill and Porcello you have young, very talented pitchers, so at least you’re finding a way to develop them. What is the benefit of running The Colonel out there again and again?
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 27, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No benefit...
just sayin’. I’d go with Boggs. Any game started by Welly is doomed.
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What exactly are you saying?
Other than being contrarian?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 27, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why wouldn't Sonnastine and Parra be starting?
They are owned by their organizations for the next several years. They were pitching poorly, and sent to their minor leagues to work out their issues.
They are starting because their teams have some sort of belief that they CAN be good; and because it is in their best interests to have them be good.
Everyone seems to think that pitchers just walk in fully formed, front of the rotation aces. There are a few elite pitchers that do just that. Most of them knock around like Parra and Sonnastine for a bit. Maybe you’ve never heard of Scott Baker, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, or Edwin Jackson. They all had some very ugly seasons before they learned how to pitch.
Every young pitcher that struggles is not going to figure it out, but it’s certain they won’t if their not given the chance.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 27, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unrelated, you might want to look at Perez's pitchfx data from his last few appearances.
he appears to have reverted his “new arm slot” that duncan forced on him and, has some velocity back.
by DriverZn on Jul 27, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think it as an insult to the rest of the team too
What is the chance of winning a Wellemeyer start these days? 5% 3% Even lower?
by nmstar on Jul 27, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what would happen if Mo DFA's him and calls up Boggs
without consulting Tony?
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by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Touche
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
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by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If touche is...
too-SHAY, why isn’t douche doo-SHAY?
Acquire Wlad!!!
by guayzimi on Jul 27, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we
park on a driveway and drive on a parkway?
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because douche is br-AUN
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 27, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
TURN THAT MOTHERFUCKER GREEN...
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 5:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to Joe Strauss on Bernie's show
When asked about Dewitt’s intention to sign Holliday
1 being dismissive, 10 being over the top , have to sign this guy
He said Dewitt was about a 10.5
Strauss is a pessimist, so if he thinks Dewitt is willing to go all in to bring Holliday back, I believe it.
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Eff him.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who, Strauss?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
Who, Strauss?
He is one of those known name guys with all the misinformation.
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
by Red Blazer on Jul 27, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just wasn't sure if he was venting at Strauss or DeWitt
I figured Strauss, but I thought maybe he was angry at DeWitt for making us seem desperate to sign Holliday. That wouldn’t exactly help put us in a good bargaining position. But I guess DeWitt thinks we can afford it and I don’t think he’s stupid enough to sign Holliday if it would make it impossible to sign Albert or something.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. Had they held on to Wallace I could see them letting Pujols walk.
I have no proof but it would make sense to start Wallace as a 3B and when Als contract is up and Wallace loses what range he had switch him to 1B and wave the Mang goodbye.
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
by Red Blazer on Jul 27, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont like your tone,
young man.
I cried a little inside while reading that.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cheer up they traded Wallace.
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
by Red Blazer on Jul 27, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now I'm sad.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now youve really done it.
flagged!
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting.
I hope that’s true, as long as DeWitt will extend Pujols as well. I can’t see how he wouldn’t do that, but this organization sometimes fails to make sense to me.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by ilrosso on Jul 27, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
i’m baffled by our moves at least half of the time. But at the same time, several of them work out inexplicably. So i’ll trust that they can sign Albert and Holliday or they won’t bother signing Holliday
by kalmavet on Jul 27, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeWitt got an education
during the all star week. He change tact dramatically, but for reasons different than might be obvious. The Pujols factor in many ways is an enigma in the market place. Smart businessmen look to define the parameters of the Market place, as opposed to dealing in its commodity’s.
Variables were a massive rule 5 exposure on the horizon. Probably the Semgroup Bankruptcy investigation.
by OperaCard on Jul 27, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The massive Rule Five exposure does not exist. And didn't.
I did a lengthy fanpost explaining who was in danger and who wasn’t. The numbers worked out without difficulty. Unless the FO really wanted everybody with a pulse on the roster, Rule Five put no pressure on the front office.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Tom
How many of the recent trades could be characterized as either on the forty man or unprotected in 2010?
by OperaCard on Jul 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
everybody traded but shane peterson and brett wallace were on the 40 man.
brett was almost sure to go on the 40 man in the spring — but not before the Rule V deadline, and was not in need of protection.
So instead we ended up dealing 4 guys on the 40-man (Mort, Todd, Perez, Duncan) for three guys (Holliday, DeRosa, and Lugo). Opening up exactly one spot on the 40-man. in 40-man terms, we could have accomplished the same by outrighting shane robinson or max scherer to memphis.
now maybe we don’t resign holliday and we don’t resign derosa (unlikely). we now have THREE whole spots on the roster. we could have outrighted shane robinson, max scherer, and nick stavinoha to memphis for the same end. now I realize that those three would be exposed to the rule V draft. no doubt the club would be positively unable to continue with those guys on the roster in 2010.
sorry, we didn’t just shed 4 of our best prospects to clear one spot, or even three spots, on the 40-man roster.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the research Tom
Best prospects are often just that I think. Perhaps massive wasn’t the right term.
by OperaCard on Jul 27, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps you don't know what you're talking about?
but I still love your posts.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 5:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and, while i don't know - and don't want to know - why a group hedging oil futures
would impact cardinal baseball, the semgroup bankruptcy was already concluded and Freeh’s report already published. there’s no link there and no further investigation.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that means we'll see how Albert looks in pinstripes
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think so
they just traded away Pujols insurance policy
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How are we going to afford him if we're so committed to re-signing Holliday?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 27, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Raising payroll.
That’s the only way. Hopefully DeWitt will do so. I can’t imagine him being so utterly stupid not to re-sign Pujols.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by ilrosso on Jul 27, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I actually meant to say there
was that I can’t imagine DeWitt handicapping himself by signing Holliday if that will make him unable to field a competitive offer for Pujols. I’d rather Pujols never reach FA, just re-sign him right now to a 7/190 extension, but if Pujols does get to FA, I’d hope we offer him a respectable amount.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by ilrosso on Jul 27, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as ilrosso said, a payroll increase
Dewitt has been more than willing to bump payroll in previous years and for the right players.
by dcfcblues on Jul 27, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
surely not
Red Sox.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Holliday looks kind of like Zoolander in that picture
This ballpark has to be at least 3 times as big!
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
by tgreenfield on Jul 27, 2009 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet you didn't think I'd be such a good eugoogoolizer for your farm system, did you?
Yes, I know what a eugoogooly is!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what is this? a farm system for ants?!
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
by tgreenfield on Jul 27, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is this! A stadium for ants?!?!
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
by Red Blazer on Jul 27, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saw this snippet on Goold's blog about the Cubs moving into 1st yesterday
It was the first time since August 11, 1936 that the Cubs displaced the Cardinals as the first-place team in their league or division race this late in a season." Did a little digging beyond the Elias note, and if you think of the year you’ll quickly think about what else was going on at that time. For context, that is the day this happened:
There was a picture of Jesse Owens receiving the Gold Medal for the 100 meter race at the Berlin Olympics.
In 1936. Before World War II, the jet engine, the beginning of Stan the Man’s career, television, and most importantly, VEB.
Wow….
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And I obviously get an F in using blockquotes
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we should state for the record that we have no inflated self-importance
…TWSS.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 27, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am pretty sure the jet engine was designed prior to 1936.
also, Logie Baird’s first TV images were in the 1920s.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 28, 2009 5:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Early versions of both existed,
but neither were commercial products in 1936.
by ArkansasTravs on Jul 28, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So I was looking at probable pitchers on the official website
It’s supposed to go Carpenter vs. Wolf, Wainwright vs. Billingsley, TBA vs. Kershaw, and Lohse vs. Kuroda. I like the first two, and I’m OK with the fourth, but why is there nobody slated against Kershaw? Did I miss some weird rotation shuffle recently? I have been traveling again recently so I might just be missing something.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It would have to be Pinero
I haven’t heard of any injury
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
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by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm. A little scary...
Also, was Wellemeyer injured somehow the other day? While checking the site I saw some photo caption of him bent over that mentioned an injury. Something serious enough to scrap him for a while? I can hope…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He might have tweaked a leg muscle
right as Tony was yanking him, but based on yesterday’s performance I would suspect whiplash.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sad to say but a Wellemeyer injury might be fortunate for us.
Holliday.
Uh huh, oh yeah.
Holliday.
He will be so nice.
by Red Blazer on Jul 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I am disappointed with Wellemeyers performance
I never root for an injury. I just wish the manager would wake up and either send him to the pen or Memphis, and give one of the toung guys a chance. They may not do any better, but they surely can’t do any worse.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
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by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just read on the PD website
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
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by MilCardFan on Jul 27, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how to stay on tony's good side through slumps, by Rick Ankiel.
Express interest in animal rights causes.
Express interest in fancy wines.
I launched my charity wine last weekend benefiting Stray Rescue St Louis (StrayRescue.org). Stray Rescue saves dogs and cats living on city streets and helps them find homes. My wife and I have two dogs, a rottweiler and a Siberian husky, and they are a big part of our family. The wine is a 2006 Napa Valley Cabernet blend. It’s a very enjoyable red. You can order it online at www.wineandcheeseplace.com to benefit a great cause.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 27, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
It all makes sense now.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 27, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I was a more evil man,
I would love to hack into his blog. But, I’m not.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's a Cardinal man
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 27, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whose trying to pass off a crappy bottle of wine
for $55!
Don’t mess with booze, even if it’s for charity.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The most glorious moment in Cubs history is on AMC...
Rookie of the Year is on! Rowengartner! Steadman!
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 27, 2009 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gardenhoser
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rosenbooger!
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jul 27, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Runamucker!
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
by The_teague on Jul 27, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lollygagger!
oh, sorry. wrong movie.
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 27, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funky
Butt Lovin!
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Jul 27, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll go ahead and be the first to say it.....
IF we resign Holliday, and if Ankiel keeps hitting, or management believes he’ll hit once his shoulder heals up (and we can resign him cheap), I’m all for moving Ludwick this offseason.
It isn’t that I dislike Ludwick, I just think that is going to be the easiest way to save a few dollars, AND get help at another position or in the minors.
Just a thought, but I won’t be shocked at all if it happens.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 27, 2009 3:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i love how ank gets like 5 hits and suddenly people want to forget his year long struggles
plus wouldnt that put is back at square one with an overload of lefthanded OFs
by FunkeeC on Jul 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He lowered his stance!
All is fixed!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 27, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, the starting OF would be
R-L-L, from left to right.
by longhornscardinals on Jul 27, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious--
Why would you move Ludwick? It seems—to me—that it is in the Cardinals’ best interests to keep Ludwick. Can we replace his production from the farm? Also, I’d much rather rely on Ludwick than on Ankiel.
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
by ilrosso on Jul 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
god no
i mean, i could see this happening as well…but i am totally opposed to it…luddy>ankiel every day
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Jul 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 
