Cardinals Acquire Matt Holliday in exchange for Brett Wallace, Clay Mortensen, Shane Peterson
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:27 PM EDT
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PrintIt's a done deal: Holliday and multiple St. Louis curtain calls to the Cardinals, Wallace and co. to the Athletics.
Here are the things that are still true:
- Matt Holliday is still an excellent baseball player. Right now he's got an OPS+ of 125; in addition to that he runs well and fields well. Nobody—not even my favorite TTO guy, Jack Cust—is hitting for power in Oakland this year. If you want to get really optimistic about it you can hope that his power has been depressed to an undue degree by playing in that notorious pitcher's park in that notorious league. Even if the trade doesn't make much sense—and it doesn't—the Cardinals have upgraded.
- Brett Wallace is still an excellent baseball hitter. There are questions here—in the end it comes down to Mozeliak's stats and scouts vs. Beane's stats and scouts, who must weigh Wallace's defensive and power potential in any deal. Certainly he's worth more to an AL club.
- Which makes it weird that the Cardinals still had to throw in Peterson, one of their vaguely fringy corner bats, and Mortensen, the Golden Sinker.
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Potential lineup?
1. Skip – 2b
2. Colby – Cf
3. Albert – 1b
4. Matt Holliday – Lf
5. Ryan Ludwick – Rf
6. Mark DeRosa – 3b
7. Yadi – C
8. Pitcher
9. Brendan Ryan – Ss
Bench: Lugo, LaRue, Ankiel, Thurston?
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
Actually
I know it’ll probably never happen, but I think having Holliday at 3, Albert at 4 and Luddy 5th would be even better. Meh.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 24, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
gotta break up the lefties...
Schumaker 2B
DeRosa 3B
Pujols 1B
Holliday LF
Ludwick RF
Rasmus CF
Molina C
Ryan SS
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Against lefties
Swap DeRo and Colby in the lineup, put Lugo in for Skip (and maybe swap him with Ryan).
I predict we will hit lefties better from now on.
ya i think we see lugo playing 2b
against lefties
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Looks good. No excuses now. Time to put the pedal to the medal.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
if I were manager
1. Skip – 2b
2. Cobly – Cf
3. Albert – 1b
4. Holliday – Lf
5. Ludwick – Rf
6. DeRosa – 3b
7. Ryan -SS
8. Yadi – C
9. Pitcher.
Ryan infront of Yadi because of his speed.
Pitcher after Yadi?
Doesn’t Tony not put Molina in front of the pitcher, so he can use the pitcher to bunt over a speedy guy?
I thought he hit the pitcher 9th the other day to avoid that.
but, but, his super speed!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Yadi can throw himself instead of running the bases?
He does have that cannon arm…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
is this like Albert exceeding the AP?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I want Holliday batting 2nd personally
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
vs. lhp and rhp
lhp
ss ryan
3b derosa
1b pujols
lf holliday
rf ludwick
c molina
2b lugo
cf skip
rhp
2b skip
3b derosa
1b pujols
lf holliday
cf rasmus
rf ludwick
c molina
ss ryan
by cardsforever on Jul 24, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure theyll move skip to the outfield
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Yeah...
i would assume Skip just sits for all lefties from now on. He pretty much does anyway…
V, b.
skip should never ever play CF. ever.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 24, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
hes pretty athletic
i think he could handle it for a few games a week at the most
but we gotta have a left handed hitting outfielder and shumaker hits them better than rasmus and ankiel
by cardsforever on Jul 24, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
no. no. and no. skip's metrics in center are awful.
ankiel and ludwick would both be better in CF. if rasmus goes out for any extended period, we should call jay up for defense.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
It's Larussa
So there will be 100 different iterations, for better or worse. All of them infinitely better than what we had before. Still need that 5th starter (and I would have preferred Dunn and the fact that we would have given up less), but this team just became one to contend with any in the league.
This better be a sign-and-trade thing.
Otherwise, that’s a whole lot to give up for 2 months of a player. Even still, I wonder how they cover the salary considerations next year. This is a Boras guy, so I wouldn’t expect any “hometown discount” here.
Gotta get over...
the two months hang up. We’re in a pennant race. That means these two months are enormously important.
I'm not an advocate of the all-in approach.
Yes, these two months are important. I’m not sure they’re sacrifice-the-next-few-years important. Maybe they believe this is the best way to get an extension done with Pujols. Maybe they think they better take advantage of LaRussa this year. If so, then it’s worth it.
They know their finances better than I, but I’ll be VERY pissed about all of the financial moaning and groaning of the last few years if they suddenly bump the damn payroll by 20%.
You have a shot at the series
You take your shot.
If we were 4 games back playing sub five hundred ball and you make this trade (harden) you’re an idiot.
This is aggressive and gutsy and I really, really like it.
With DeRosa coming we go from a can’t win 2-1 games to a potent offense with one of the best starting four in baseball, an above average pen, and the best closer in the NL.
When your team is legitimately one piece away, you need to get the piece.
Ask Milwaukee how that turned out.
Even still, you’re talking about losing two immediate bats for 2 draft picks that we won’t see for at least 2 years. That puts some bad baseball in between.
robinson
was never going to be helpful to the ml team. he’s a throw in. I’m a little upset about mortenson though.
robinson
is still memphis
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
peterson. he was "sugar shane 2: the sweetening"
he made it . . . to springfield I think? not to memphis. you’re thinking of the first sugar shane, shane robinson. we’ve still got him.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Another thing to consider:
“Worst case scenario” could be that Holliday plays out the season and then ACCEPTS arbitration.
You could do worse than having Holliday in LF on a 1 year, $15-16M contract in 2010.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Not much worse, ...
given the financial whining they’ve been doing, the current self-imposed cap, and the need to fill the Pineiro slot in the rotation. Especially, since we just gave away one of the guys that might have filled it.
no it better not be
this team cannot afford to give Holliday $15M + for several years if it intends to resign Pujols.
That's my fear
Trading Wallace for Holliday isn’t worth it unless you re-sign Holliday. However, if you re-sign Holliday for $15MM+, you can’t afford to re-sign Pujols.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I don't see it like that
What if the team simply raises payroll? Remember only a couple years ago we had a 100M+ payroll
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember a couple years ago when people had jobs,
could buy houses, and maybe even a car? That one contract would raise the current payroll over 15%. That’s a lot. We also need a 3B, a number 4 & 5 starter, a setup man, and a closer. We might need a 2B, and we’re in desparate need of bench help. We just traded away 2, maybe 3 options to fill those holes cheaply.
you have to consider
The cardinals have been bucking that trend, attendance is on pace to be close to the if not the same as last year
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
Attendance is not the driving factor in revenues in MLB
Corporate sponsorship and luxury box purchases are much bigger parts of the total revenue. This team has felt the pinch to the point that they reduced payroll drastically due to the concern of said corporate dollars. That should be pretty evident by the fact that they have gone through significant cost-cutting despite the attendance numbers.
i don't think you can whole sale attendance facts
A lot of the cost cutting was done to brace for poor sponsership and attendance and luxury box ( which i really include with attendance, its in the ball park and the idea is to watch the game). From what i read they are in better shape than most teams. You don’t get the kind of money a guy like dewitt has not know how to brace for shit, when the shit hits the fan
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
You make it sound far worse than it is
Holes at closer? Setup Man? I’m pretty sure we have Fanklin, Motte, McClellan, and Todd who are all capable of filling those roles. Second Base? Schumaker can continue to play second. If for whatever reason, the team feels he is not getting the job done, Lugo could play second, or a minor league guy like Hoffpauir, Descalso, or T. Greene. Bench Help? Maybe, but again T. Greene, Hoffpauir, Craig, Freese, Jay, and Ank if resigned cheap are all inexpensive bench options who still provide value.
Really the main holes in next years Cardinals are two you identified: 4 & 5 starters and third base. I completely agree with you that those are issues, but the others are simply not and it blows it out of proportion.
almost all of those players you've described are replacement level.
franklin is better and to some extent k-mac. skippy could become a better than replacement value player at 2b. but there are real holes on the team.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Not true
Franklin and Motte especially are above replacement level. McClellan is talented enough to be a dominant setup man. Todd, if he is not a PTBNL in the Indians deal, projects as closer material. Schumaker is above replacement level, same with a healthy Ankiel. Descalso and Freese both have the potential to be above replacement as well.
jason motte net WAR 2009: - 0.1 win.
= replacement level
kyle mcclellan net WAR 2009: 0.1 win
rick ankiel net WAR 2009: 0.2 win
skip schumaker net WAR 2009: 0.5 win
sure, descalso or freese – if he’s healthy – could be good. but when you’re quick to label these guys good players or to suggest that Julio Lugo or Jarett Hoffpauir are answers as starters at second, i start to wonder.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
im pretty sure glaus is gone
and pinero is probaby going to be offered a contract, but it will be a lot less than he is making right now. he will probably turn that down
so thats about 18 mil of payroll
then ducan gone
larue is probably gone
lugo is going to be paid league minimum
ankiel will probably be gone
ludwick is still cheap for his production
i think we will be fine but our pitching staff will probably suffer
and if the unspeakable happens to carpenter next season were so screwed for years to come
by cardsforever on Jul 24, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
what if Pujols stays because we have Holliday?
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
yep
Pujols isn’t going to stay in a ghostown.
If i were Matt Holiday and I had a chance to hit behind Albert Pujols for two or three years I’d take a discount. I’ll make my money on the backend.
The Pujols effect > the Coors effect
Lineup protection doesn't work that way.
Why doesn’t anyone understand this?
You can't teach a hammer to love nails.
by the red baron on Jul 25, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand.
I just think they are putting a lot of eggs in this basket if it isn’t. I’m not really concerned with the loss of Peterson, but I was pretty shocked they gave up Mortensen, too. This team is in need of cheap SP, and it seems like they’re banking a lot on the development of Boggs, Garcia, and Hawksworth.
I just put up a FanPost which addresess this
It doesn’t answer the question for management, but it lays out the payroll scenario for the next few years.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
from other thread... let's go for broke
Who wants to photoshop a stache on Matt?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He's Such a Man He Could Grow One This Afternoon
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's what real ball players do
It’s why Tony loves him so much.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I got nothin' better to do for a few minutes...
…I’m on it.
by vexedtechie on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
good work!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He looks better with the stache
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Holliday growing a mustache better be part of this deal
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
or at least draw one on like Colby's
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
I wonder if Colby has a pencil in the dugout to reapply between innings?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
don't ask me how I know this
I believe they have ‘performance makeup’ nowadays. Stays on all day.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Well, Colby should apply more then
His current mustache is basically an optical illusion
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Colbys game day photo reminds me of Joseph Gribel from King of the Hill
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
we pay less
but you never have to talk to any espn personalities. you have to decide how much that’s worth to you.
Flim hasn't come through for me
Can you photoshop Mo and LaRussa into the movie poster for “Dumb and Dumber”?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Not at a PS computer
Those were just some I have done in the past
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah
All apologies
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
sweet
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I follow minor league baseball more than majors, so it is difficult for me to see three prospects go. I view this as solely Wallace for Holliday. If Holliday doesn’t resign, then Peterson and Mortensen are easily replaceable by the compensation picks. If he does, we have several 3rd -4th OF types and backend starters to replace them
Looking by MLE, I think a realistic expectation for Wallace is a OPS in the .750 – .850 range , which would likely 110 POD+ guy If he is able to stay at 3B and not be too bad defensively, he’s a valuable player. If he can’t stay at 3B and has to switch to 1B or LF, then its fairly easily to replace him.
Is it a given
that we offer Holliday arb?
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes unless Mo is crazy.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
I'm with you
Honestly, I’m kind of sick to my stomach right now.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Mortensen
was at AAA and could’ve been in the rotation next year. He’s replaceable, but not next year + you never know how draft picks will turn out. Losing Mortensen has value, not as much as Wallace, of course, but it’s not nothing.
thus why Shelby Miller
must be signed!
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jul 24, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Mort can be replaced if
Garcia comes back healthy.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
IF. IF, dude. that's not nothing.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Maybe it's time to replace
MO.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jul 24, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel .... I feel... I feel..... I feel.... I feel like PK!!!!
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 13 recs
That. Is. Awesome.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I've got a photoshop job for you (see below)
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
that is great
side note isn’t that cobra commander, i am truly laugh into pain
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
Yes, Brad Thompson IS Cobra Commander
I am just as shocked as you are
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i didn't even think of it like that, AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
So THAT'S why he's not been pitching much lately.
He’s been working on the new GI Joe movie.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
great scouting
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
A's fan chiming in.
You guys are gonna like Holliday.
Can somebody give me a quick and dirty rundown on Mortensen? “The Golden Sinker” is a pretty sweet nickname, I think we’ll steal that at AN.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Morts upside = Jake Westbrook
Kid has a real heavy sinker, but some serious control issues and he can be prone to the long ball. He’s a good prospect though, and if he lives up to his potential, can be a solid middle of the rotation starter
that's basically all he is
lately the cardinals have gone all-in on low-projection college pitchers, and Mortensen was perhaps the best of the bunch. He’s got a great sinker, he’s reached AAA early for draft but not age, and he’s begun to adapt to it. Unlike a lot of great sinker guys his statistical profile actually shows it—he gets a ton of ground balls.
The guy throws a decent sinker...
…but he doesn’t have much else right now. His changeup only has about 4-6 mph of difference (pretty bad of course) and he can be pretty wild. His ceiling is a 3/4/5 starter, but those are important too.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I would be ok with the deal
if it was just Wallace for Holliday. However; I hope we use that 1.5 Mil to sign Miller.
They better sign Shelby Miller now
otherwise, their farm system will be ranked nearly dead last next year. No Wallace, No Rasmus, No Perez, No Mort
honestly
I was kind of hoping that the Athletics threw in one guy to fill out the deal and relieve some of their DH glut.
That’s right: Daric Barton.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
hah!
in your dreams. Have you come to grips with the fact that Barton may not even be able to stick as a DH?
I'll go down with the ship
he’s only a year older than wallace, after all.
I’m kidding, but only mostly. His age-18 season at Peoria was my favorite prospect year of all time. That was some extraordinary hitting.
Have you read any insights...
as to why he hasn’t developed as expected? He’s had some injuries… Otherwise, is it just a case of a line drive bat that never gained any power?
yeah
it’s just a case of a guy who wasn’t supposed to really hit for power not hitting for power.
I think he’s a major league hitter, though—badly timed injuries and slow starts, more than competence, have kept him out of a starting lineup full time.
He's never been projected to hit for power.
He had a bad season as a rookie offensively, but actually got REALLY good as a defensive first baseman.
He’s still only 24 and had an .840 OPS in Triple-A this season.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Was Daric Barton our best positional prospect at the time of the Mulder deal?
Or at least best hitting prospect?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I ask because my knowledge of the farm was nil back then.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Barton-Wallace
Yes, and Wallace’s lack of power as he’s moved up is strangely similar to Barton. However, I still think this is a bad trade.
KJOK
far and away
as far as I remember. He was certainly the only dreamy prospect whose pictures I clipped out of Tiger Beat.
Ah yes
The Tiger Beat: Prospect Edition.
Eat your heart out, Nick Jonas.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I was hoping for Haren back.
What? He’s plays where now?
Pretty much FML any time Todd Wellemeyer touches a baseball.
by Cardinals645 on Jul 24, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
followed by
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
With good reason
The euphoria of this trade is going to wear off quickly once people realize we’ve traded a big chunk of the future for hope. Hope that Holliday was worth it.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
time will tell if this was worth it.
but i already miss wallace.
awesome protection for pujols though.
crap
In the depths of my hysteria, I can’t stop calling him “Matty Ho.”
I gotta stop that…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I like it.....
I think this addresses the teams biggest need, a guy in the lineup that can get on base. We have plenty of power. We have our guys like Skip and Ryan. We really needed another guy that can draw walks and hit for a decent average. We’ve got that.
Depending on how resigning Holliday and other deals go, we might even be able to move Luddy this offseason. Just something to keep in mind if you are worried about $’s.
The one bad thing I see is that it’ll be really tough to offer arby to Glaus now, in case he were to accept, assuming of course that we resign Holliday.
Wallace was blocked, and it looks like the club didn’t think he could plya 3B or LF.
Peterson wasn’t listed as one of our top 20 prospects over at FR. We have plenty of medicore OF depth ahead of him anyways, PLUS we have a full OF at the ML level.
And I know some of you like Morty, but he was ranked behind Boggs and Garcia coming into the year, he’d be behind Shelby if we
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
Long-time lurker, first-time poster...
…but I wholeheartedly agree. Honestly, I think this, combined with DeRosa and, to a lesser extent, Lugo, shores up the offense very nicely (which, let’s face it, has been the major problem all season). Now, combine that with the fact that Ludwick appears to have come around…and the pitching (aside from the Colonel, of course) has been excellent…doesn’t this pretty much give us what we need to compete with the Dodgers and Phillies for the NL title?
Right
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the whole purpose for drafting a surplus of hitters who are blocked, fringy corner outfielders, and pitchers who profile to be #4/5 at best (and don’t tell me Mort was a potential top-of-the-rotation guy…) is to move them for players who can help you win now and to be able to draft players who can be potential #1s or All-Stars.
Isn’t that the model?
I just can’t see how it’s fair to judge the deal until we know if Holliday and Pujols are re-signed. If the agreement was “DeWitt, I can make this move, but you have to up the payroll”… then how is it really that bad?
by soil_illini on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Dis/Agree
I agree on Mortensen and on Robinson. I’m okay with them leaving. Guys like that should be traded. However, the value of Wallace is far greater than the value of Holliday, so why did we have to throw those guys into this deal? Wallace is a future heart-of-the-order guy. At the very least, he could be an ideal #2 hitter in front of the heart. All I know is that if this eventually leads to the Cardinals not re-signing Pujols over money demands, I’m going to be very angry and sad.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
See...
I have never valued Wallace that much.
I think he tops out as Nick Johnson, but with worse defense.
I don’t think he’s even Sean Casey, and I would trade 6 years of Sean Casey for 4 more years of Albert Pujols.
by soil_illini on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
nick johnson was/is a great hitter
he’s like best-case scenario brett wallace if brett wallace were made of glass. check out that age-20 season in AA.
Seeing as how
Nick Johnson’s non-injury ability was around the .290 .419 .501 line he put up in ‘05/’06, that sounds about right actually. Which is really valuable.
Not afraid to nitpick
I am really surprised the cow is still among us
Hanging in there man?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
how would moving Luddy in the offseason save us $?
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
probably
“I shouldn’t have sucked for four months.”
I’m hoping he gets it together as a fourth outfielder, I can’t not root for Rick Ankiel.
You realize this just
puts Colby on the pine even more often now, don’t you? First rule of a TLR team … Ank always gets chances other players don’t.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
bases loaded
two outs, pinch hitting for the pitcher.
duncan or ankiel?
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Josh the Bat Boy
Even if he did retire.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
in all honesty i’d probably hit ank.
but duncan could possibly draw a walk which makes it tough
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
In that case I really hate this trade.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't operate under the assumption
that tony la russa is doing everything he can to undermine this team. Ankiel will play more than, I don’t know, Stavinoha would have, but he’s not going to turn into a third-and-a-half outfielder.
I wouldn't bet on that
My prediction: Minimum 140 more PAs for Ankiel this season.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
ankiel wasn't playing full time
when his competition was chris duncan. I’m sorry, but I trust la russa to at least realize that matt holliday is a better outfielder than chris duncan.
What is this "trust" of which you speak?
I’m sorry, this year has nearly obliterated the once-great respect I had for TLR. Nothing but insanity or megalomania explains the utterly bizarre roster and lineup management of 2009, not to mention the ugly public power plays. Even if we win the WS this is Tony’s worst Cardinal season IMHO.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
i have no problem seeing tony's issues.
still, even knowing him, this is a holliday/rasmus/ludwick OF barring injuries at least 3 nights out of 4. ankiel doesn’t make any sense out there.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
After 2 F'IN YEARS of lobbying for this guy ...
he better put him in the lineup everyday. He’s been whining for this specific “impact bat” for two years. Now he has what he wanted. If he platoons him now, I’m done.
No, the argument is
that Luddy or Rasmus will be platooned, not Holliday. And I think that’s exactly what will happen, though I’ll admit my blood pressure is pushing me into road rage territory at the moment.
At the very least, I hope Moz is texting to TLR: “OK, Tony, win, and BTW, STFU.”
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ankiel will play more than we think
And Ludwick and Rasmus will play less than we think. That is my fear, at least.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
the question
is whether he realizes that colb is better than ankiel
Please be right
I don’t doubt you, but I am having trouble being entirely rational about this still. Tony is Toni is Tone
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
for all the adam carolla podcast fans out there
Tony? … Tony’s Tony.
Ankiel is a proven veteran
When in doubt, on a LaRussa Cardinals team, default to the proven veteran.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
no matter how much he frustrated me i can’t help rooting for him..
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Ank will still get playing time. That is the Larussa way.
Looking good now in the OF. All three, Raz/Holliday/Luds are all-star material, can field and hit.
I hope we sign Holliday.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
This isn't on the topic of the trade
But I just wanted to say…Matt Holliday is an absolute physical freak. I’ve seen him up-close (two seats behind visiting dugout at Busch vs. Rockies) — he is a JACKED dude. Absolutely monstrous.
Okay, back to being angry.
...apropos to nothing
That’s what I thought in 97.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he is
Remember the opening day that wasn’t last season? The Cards played the Rockies, and the Rockies wore those ghastly black vests-with-black sleeves combo. The Tulo/Holliday/Atkins group were three freakishly stacked dudes, especially so in that particularly uni.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that's the game I was at
And then the makeup game also, I was two rows behind the Rox dugout. What a beast he is.
the one good thing this does
is that it removes any temptation in 2012 to let pujols go and move wallace to first.
I think we massively overpaid here, though. Any one of the two of wallace, mortenson was a an overpayment.
the end of every half inning IS a turning point. -Evilfrog
If they were willing to deal Wallace...
they should have done it a long time ago. We could have used him while Duncan and Ankiel were failing miserable for the last 3 months
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT reply actions
Well, we got a one game lead so time to win some games.
Wellemeyer is an issue though so I hope we can get a 5th starter.
Honestly I would like to see Boggs get another crack.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
From Goold's twitter:
“Word is the deal does not include any talk of an extension for Holliday. Is going to be a McGwire, Rolen type sales pitch.”
i heard if you turn off the lights in the bathroom and turn on the faucet
and then say “Scott Boras” three times while facing the mirror, he’ll show up in your house, kick your dog, steal your wallet and eat a baby.
this IS a horror movie
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's see.....
………………
Oh my God, you’re right!
MY WALLET!
uh, and MY BABY!
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Laughable
That makes the move even worse. The only way it makes sense is if they secured a window to discuss an extension before finalizing the deal. If we really just gave up that package for two months of Holliday, we’d better win the World Series. Making the playoffs alone does not justify this move.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
There were a few posts on AthleticsNation about Holliday wanting to play in StL.
To the extent that Holliday could potentially tell Boras that he wants to play there, and to get him the best deal there, and that’s that.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
I love St. Louis
I love Busch Stadium. I love our tradition. I love our fans. When I was younger, I used to believe that players took less money—the hometown deal, or, Baseball Heaven deal—to play in St. Louis before the best fans in baseball. Nowadays, I look at Kyle Lohse’s and Jo-El Pineiro’s contracts and laugh, because it’s so obviously not the case. The notion that Holliday “wants” to play in St. Louis and will therefore tell the greediest man in baseball that is his desire and to make it happen at a reasonable price seems absurd to me. I don’t mean to be insulting because this could happen. Of course, Dave Duncan could come back next year after the Chris Duncan Trade, too.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Dave Duncan
that’s the most underrated guy in the organization – let’s increase the payroll to keep that guy, not M.Holliday
He's already the highest paid pitching coach in baseball.
Despite his obliviousness to release points.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
"greediest man in baseball"?
Not sure I can fault the guy. His job is to get the most guaranteed money for his clients unless directed otherwise. When he’s given different instructions, he follows them, like A rod staying in nyc, lohse in stl, aaand, he’s probably done it some other time. I like how he has the balls to exploit the holes selig set up on behalf of his clients. I feel like if other agents aren’t doing that, they’re not doing their jobs or their clients have different demands.
i just can’t fault the guy for doing his job.
I agree
but A-Rod went around Boras to re-sign with the Yanks. A-Rod also went around Boras to sign with the Mariners out of high school. If he would have followed Boras’s plan, and not had the intervention of a family friend, he would have probably gone to play for the University of Miami, a la Aaron Crow and in the Indy League, another Boras client.
If by "the next Lohse" you mean "the next overpaid free agent," then yes.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i mean a boras client that didn't really hit the free agent market and probly got payed less for playing here.
capital letters suck.
He got paid more in both dollars and years
Mo made an “aggressive” signing, just like with Pineiro, before the market developed. We could have had Lohse for probably 75% of the dollars and 75% of the years if we had been patient. He got the largest FA pitching contract outside of CC Sabathia.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Don't we all think the Pineiro signing was a good one now?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't
It was bad the day it was made, it was bad every day of last season, and it has been bad every day of this season. At that point in time, guaranteeing Pineiro two years and $7.5MM in the second of those was a poor decision. If he’d have signed him for a lesser total dollar amount, then it would have been okay. It’s just like the Lohse signing being horrible the day it was completed.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Fangraphs has Pineiro being worth $14.8M just this season alone
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he has pitched great this season.
What you’re suggesting is that Mo knew Pineiro would pitch this well this season after pitching below value last year. I’m not looking at this retrospectively. At the time the deal was made, assuming Pineiro was going to be a “deal” in 2009 was silly. If the total deal’s worth had been, say, $10MM, I’d have been fine with it because Pineiro was bad. He was worth about $4MM last year. I doubt very much that Mo projected this out of Pineiro. No one did.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Well then, what constitutes a good signing?
You’re being unreasonable. Starters have been getting overpaid ever since the Zito deal went down. We needed starting pitching, and maybe Mo did know that Joel had some upside. We had no place to go, and the contracts both seem infinitely reasonable now.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
I'm pretty sure that Mo signed Pineiro
Because of his good lucky 2 months in 07. He hadn’t actually been good since 04.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And AJ Burnett
and Derek Lowe.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Right
I forgot about the genuine top-of-the-rotation guys. That shows you where the market was for Lohse even more. He’s nowhere near the caliber of either CC, AJ, or Lowe.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Well
I also think that the Yanks outbid themselves for both CC and Burnett, when they would have been better served to do what he Braves did and trade for Vazquez and sign Lowe.
I agree that Lohse was more expensive than he probably should have been, but let’s just see if he outpitches his contract. Piniero is currently on pace to outpitch his entire contract this season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
&*#@&*!#*#$&$*@&@^@#$$ once again
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
and how is this going to make us better long-term?
I thought Mo was going to build a long-term future by cultivating top prospects. So now he goes right back to the Jockety philosophy? This doesn’t make any sense.
so pumped for this move
Big rockies fan was hoping the deal would have happened in the offseason, but he was so clutch in so many situations in Colorado in his time here.
More silver lining
well for the #HPGF, at least
Does Craig move back to 3rd base at AAA?
tgreene
has been playing it lately anyway
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this shows the organization's true outlook on David Freese
Earlier this year, non-St. Louis broadcasters would say things like, “The front office really believes this guy is the third baseman of the future for this organization” about Freese. I would scoff and say aloud to my T.V., “Yeah? What about Wallace?” Well, now I know. I also think that the treatment of Craig this season has offered a glimpse into the valuation of Freese, Wallace, and Craig at the hot corner. It seems now that that valuation was (1) Freese; (2) Wallace; (3) Craig.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
FREEEEEEEEEEEZIN
RESTIN HIS HEAD ON A PILLOW MADE OF CONCRETE
AGAIN
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
apparently yes
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
other thread
We decided he’s parachuting in.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
you don't know about the zip line network?!
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Sigh... and the future of Albert in St. Louis
Not sure that this is a good move. Lots of talk about the “long term value” of Wallace against whatever the short-term value may be from Holliday, with caveats thrown in about the need to resign Holliday if the deal is to be valuable for the Cardinals.
That said, my concern is about how this move may have serious long term implications on whether the Cards can resign Albert Pujols. Much has been made of the need to provide Albert with protection and show in the Cards are committed to winning. This deal does that in the short term.
But the converse is that if the Cards have a hope of signing Albert and remaining competitive, a big part of that out come was and is tied to building a solid cheap offensive core around him. Wallace, in addition to Rasmus, Jones and Ludwick represented major players in putting such a core in place by 2011. With Wallace gone, so goes a major chunk of that core (cause we don’t know yet what will happen with Jones and Ludwick will get more expensive). To devote $25 million or $30 million a season to Albert, the club must have a cheap offensive core and selling of Wallace (regardless of whether you resign Holliday or not) makes those costs difficult to swallow in the future.
by JMedwick on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I look at it the exact opposite
Albert wanted to be shown by ownership/Mo that the front office is committed to winning and making the moves necessary to do so. This proves that they are serious, and will likely help his decision to sign here.
You are talking about the philosophical side
not the cold are cash side and of the two, the second matters more.
The deal, as I said, shows a “commitment to winning” because Holliday is an “known quantity” and “star.”
But in the end, none of that matters because:
A. It will cost a boat load to resign Holliday. If the Cards keep him around he will make it more financial difficult to sign Albert to a long term extension if he is demanding $25 million to $30 million a season. .
B. If the Cards loose Holliday, with Wallace gone, the Cards will have fewer young players ready in 2011 to provide cheap high-quality offensive output.
Albert said he will make it work
if the team shows him they are committed to winning. This will not jeopardize Alberts signing here at all, it likely increased the chances.
That is silly.
Babel all the catch phrases you want. It does not matter how “committed to winning” the Cardinals are, if the dollars don’t work, then it does not matter. This deal no doubt plays a roll in affirming the Cards commitment to wining, but but unless Albert is prepared to translate “commitment to winning” into hard dollars and cents (Albert has never said or indicated a willingness to do a “hometown discount” type deal ,in his first deal, Albert specifically said he wouldn’t take a discount to play in STL), then this deal does not matter. All that matters is making the money work and this deal makes that much more difficult.
Albert and total payroll
Look at it this way. Without Albert, payroll in 2012 is equal to X. With Albert, payroll in 2012 is equal to X + Y, with Y represented by the increased revenue the Cards generate by having a player like Albert on the team.
Now is Y equal to $5 mm, $10 mm or $20 mm? Don’t know but I would think the Cards have a financial model built to calculate Y.
Well not exactly
The 2012 payroll would be explained by
X= total payroll without Albert
y= Albert
z= player on the 25 man roster who Albert Replaces
Total Payroll 2012= (x-z)+y
They is how the total payroll figure compares to the total revenue figure. Sure Albert by himself adds a lot of value to the Cardinals, but I DeWitt is now willing to up payroll and eat up the added value by returning it to the players, then the increased value does not matter. Budgets exist for a reason and the question is how Albert fits into the long term budgetary picture.
Missing the revenue side
The payroll budget is different if Albert is on the team or not is my point. The target net income number can remain the same under both scenarios with revenue being another variable. Team revenue would be different if Albert is on the team in 2012. How much different is an unknown, but it would be several million lower. That difference would equate to reduction in team payroll.
The basis for a budget is a target net income number, not an expense number.
by ubeddie on Jul 24, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hu?
And why not?
If the money doesn’t work, then the deal doesn’t get done. This you don’t pay people with wish, hopes and commitments to winning. To pay them with cash.
because
Albert has already said that he’ll take less money to play in St Louis if they are committed to winning. His agent, the Anti-Boras has said that Pujols has made his money, now he wants to win championships.
That’s all the guy cares about.
I wouldn’t believe it from A-Rod or really any other human on the planet. But Albert is really different. Every time I read an article about him I’m reminded of how unlike everyone else in sports he is.
the philisophical side
would matter if the FO decided to start negotiations for an AP extension right now. they could say “hey look at what we just did for you!” sign albert and then it doesn’t really matter if the team doesn’t have an offensive core for a year or two because…….SHIT
spot on!
I am very concerned about this trade, as we’ve most likely sacrificed a very good future for a somewhat better present. This trade makes us much more likely to win the division this year, but we still aren’t one of the favorites to win the world series. A core of Pujols, Ludwick, Rasmus, and Wallace — plus the ability to add a key free-agent or two because of having cheap talent — would have put us in the position to seriously contend for the world series in a year or two.
My feeling
Is wallace never plays another day of third base in his life.
If he comes up as a decent bat for A’s as a first basemen/DH then god bless.
We have our first basemen and we don’t need a DH.
this doesn't make sense
Wallace can play third, he just cannot play it well. So, while he might be best suited to 1B or DH, he still had substantial value to us as at 3B. Again, if TLR was perfectly happy to accept Lil’ Dunc in LF and Miles and Schumaker at 2B, then why is he so unhappy with the prospect of Wallace at 3B? Having Wallace or Craig at 3B, DeRosa at 2B, and Schumaker in LF would have increased both our offense and our defense without having to give up anything further.
Also, you cannot simply value prospects based on availability to the parent club. You have to value them in relation to prospects/players throughout the league. For example, why not try to trade Wallace for a cost-controlled player at another position (Yunel Escobar??) or a young pitcher?
For those of us who aren't up on the farm system
I see a good definition of Mortensen above.
Peterson is a pitcher, correct? What’s he like?
peterson
is an outfielder. good hitter, in the scout sense, suspect bat. lots of similar guys (jon jay) in the system.
If we don't win a ring this year, this is a bad trade
Given Wallace’s meteoric rise through the minors, this is going to sting as we watch him putting up solid numbers by the bay … unless Holiday is enough to win us the series this year.
And why would we need the extra throw-ins beyond Wallace? We couldn’t get a two month rental of Matt Holiday straight-up for one of the best hitters in the minors?
Salaries...I'll post it again in this thread.
According to ESPN.com, our current team salary is
88,528,409, not including Holliday.
Let’s assume here that Glaus and Greene are both not going to be resigned, since essentially we don’t need either of them now and both are in the last year of their contract.
Also, with our new acquisition, we are probably not going to resign Rick Ankiel. And this salary still includes Duncan. If you take out all of those salaries for next year, we have a team salary of roughly $66million.
So, if we resign Holliday for say…$15million/year, and sign DeRosa for the same price tag he has now, that brings our total salary up to $81million, which is less than our current salary. We can fill some backup and bench spots with some "B" type players and still have around $5-10 million to work with. I’m not sure who else we would have to resign next year, but it seems to me that Holliday will fit perfectly in with the salary budget we have…at least for the next couple of years.
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
I have a fanpost with a spreadsheet relating to this
You are VASTLY underestimating the cost of arbitration eligible players and salary raises for players under contract next season. Not the mention, you’re not filling in any holes at 3B or either starting pitcher.
Derosa will not sign for $5M for next season, try $8M or more.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
they weren't directly related
but 2006 happened after the Mulder/Haren Trade. If the trade isn’t made, perhaps the planets don’t align to allow 2006 to happen?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
Having Dan Haren in the rotation vs. Not having Mark Mulder
Don’t you think we win the NLCS in five and the World Series in four with Haren in the rotation?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
we'll never know
maybe they cruise to the playoffs with Haren in the rotation? Maybe they don’t get hot at the right time? Maybe Jeff Weaver, Anthony Reyes, Jeff Suppan, ect don’t pitch quite as well?
I’m sad we missed out on Haren as a Cardinal all these years, but we don’t know what that would have meant. Maybe they don’t get swept in ’04? Maybe they win it in ’05? I buried my Haren/Mulder Angst with Wainwright curveballs to Beltran & Inge.
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
this is awful
only 1.5 mil kicked in according to espn
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
so what I wanna know is -- whither Wellemeyer? and Thurston?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Hope this isn't just a flash in the pan............
I have the feeling losing Wallace is going to come back and bite us big.
Why?
It’s not like any trade we’ve done with Beane has ever bitten us in the ass before.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
though to get particular about it
the last ++ discipline, line drive hitter with defensive issues beane stole from us did not turn out to be the deal-breaker.
obviously, I’m suggesting that clay mortensen is going to win twenty games next year.
What are you talking about?
Daric Barton is TEARING IT UP to the tune of .107/.265/.286 so far this year. Look at that OBP! It’s like 160 points higher than his BA!
I looked it up and it's all blank... a blurry blank...
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
If anyone wants to pretend this didn't happen
As soon as MLB Network gets back from commercial, the replay of last night’s Quick Pitch will be talking about “which NL team is leading the pack” in the pursuit of Holliday.
no mustache. fail.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
thats where you've been this morning
working on your photoshop
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It does have that Jacques-Louis David/ Napoleon look, doesn't it
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Willingham vs. Holliday
Willingham career OPS+: 122
Holliday OPS+: 131
Scratching my head as to why we paid such a dear price when someone comparable was available for much less.
by pitchingandefense on Jul 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT reply actions
Because the Manager came out in the papers
in Decemeber, March, June and July saying he wanted Matt Holliday.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Was he available for much less?
You really don’t know that, you’re just speculating.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
They were going to Willingham, but he failed Waino's test yesterday..
“if you can hit this curveball you’re in” ohh..darn sorry I guess we’ll take Holliday.
you have a good point there
No wonder Waino came back out after the rain delay…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I figure
you guys are happy the Rockies turned down the Ludwick offer now…?
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT reply actions
we offered
luds to the rockies?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
it was supposedly the inital offer for Holliday in Novermber
before it was turned down and he was sent to OAK
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm...I didn't hear it that way
Ludwick made no sense as a return.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 25, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
that trade
offered absolutely no benefit. this one at least proves that mozeliak understands how to value outfielders.
That was a stupid trade idea
That was a sideways move.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It would have been great for Ludwick's career though
He would become… the next Matt Holliday! And be very rich.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
the crazy youngster
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Probably not
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 25, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
This is a catastrophically stupid move that this franchise will regret for years to come
I don’t understand the logic behind offloading a cost controlled player with a huge ceiling who has raked everywhere for a guy who will hit the free market in two months, is six years older, and will command 50-60 times as much, even if we do resign him. That’s not to mention his horrendous home/road splits. Giving up Mortensen on top of it makes even less sense.
FML
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
i was reluctant at first
but until we see wallace play in the bigs we can’t make any assumptions.
however it is billy beane we’re dealing with…
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
huge ceiling
I have to say I disagree with that characterization of wallace. little defensive value, probably a bad baserunner, uncertain power—you have to be pre-injury nick johnson to recoup a huge ceiling on bat alone with that profile, and I don’t think he is.
It’s splitting hairs, but I’ll take any reassurance I can offer myself today.
You may be right. But the economics of scale are not in our favor here.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
and the problem for me
is wallace is good enough that we shouldn’t have been required to include a pitcher like Mortenson
Gotta say, Danup,
I’m surprised at how calmly you’re taking this.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
he's cool on the outside
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I don't like blogging angry
and I never really got emotionally attached to brett wallace as a prospect. daric barton… took that away from me.
It’s like I said in today’s first post, back when they were talking ludwick for holliday I couldn’t see any plan at all, and that would have pissed me off. I can see rational thought in this one, even though I disagree with it.
dude, this is like the setup to a lousy action film,
daric barton… took that away from me.
where the hardened baseball blogger, who has been hurt too much, finally allows the fresh-faced prospect to break through his cynical exterior and learns to care again.
all i can say is that if you ever get caught in a hostage situation with shelby miller . . . watch out.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Shelby Miller will be played by Shia LaBeouf
A Joel Schumacher/Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer film
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
If hitting in Oakland is Holliday's problem this year,
It doesn’t explain his only having 4 HR on the road.
The only way this deal happened
is because Dayton Moore left Mo alone for TWO MINUTES! TWO BLEEPING MINUTES at In-N-Out Burger and Billy tricked him.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
oh the mental images...
please never photoshop this
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I picture
Moore and Mo having an “Of Mice and Men” style relationship.
Beane: Hello Mo.
Mo: furtive Dayton says I’m not supposed to talk to you.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
walt jocketty is definitely Curly in that Steinbeck work.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
"goddammit you little faberge egg! why'd you have to break on me? i didn't mean to hurtcha.
we was gonna live offa fatta the land. blake was gonna let me tend the college sinkerballers myself. blake’s gonna be mad at me now."
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
The only way i'll be truly disappointed with this deal
is if Brett Wallace handles 3rd base capably for the next 4 – 5 years in the majors.
This may come true
He played right in front of me at the Futures Game and I thought he looked at worst average.
One game
I trust the scouts who’ve seen him play all year that have said there is no way he lasts at 3rd base.
do you trust
the equal or greater number of scouts who said he would be league averagish?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
doesn't matter
bc he could have been flipped to an AL team or one in need of 1b for younger pitching or something. that’s more equal value.
Just saying he could have provided longer-term value for the team whether he played 3b or not.
Pujols and LaRussa appeased?
It’s been known that LaRussa has a major hard-on for Holiday and Pujols is always claiming that he’d like to remain a Cardinal if the front office is willing to commit to winning… hopefully this will appease these guys for long enough to resign Pujols when the time comes…
Also, should soften the blow LaRussa felt when a good player like Duncan was traded away!
I wondered about the TLR appeasement aspect of this deal as well...
…. coming so soon on the heels of the Duncan trade, I wonder if this was an effort to keep TLR around beyond the end of the year?
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
Other than winning...
Yes, winning is the important, “team” thing. I get that.
But this also should keep #5 VERY happy because it should increase his chances in a reach for the Triple Crown. Seriously, I know Pujols is every bit a team player, but the new #4 hitter could make it so that he is more effective (if that’s possible).
Acquiring Holliday (with or without facial hair) also explains the Duncun-to-Red Sox move.
Hopefully the pitching holds, the home team scores more run, and all those (well, seeming a LOT of) games lost when the Cardinals scored >3 runs won’t happen because more often they’re scoring 4+ runs.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
Billy Beane
And his Bay Area mind tricks.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
those weren't brownies!!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
We should turn around and trade Holliday to San Francisco for Matt Cain
and then hit Billy Beane with a steal chair.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
+1
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
My God...
…that’s Danny Haren’s music!
by splhcb67 on Jul 24, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
ever since grade school
I think of so many confrontations in this way.
“Beane has the referee’s attention and—oh no, his partner’s slipped him the brass knuckles! Now he’s got the Beane mask on!”
He definitely hit us with a "Steal" chair.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I love a good chair whacking. After that drop a Randy Savage elbow on him...
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
Two more points.....
We don’t have to “win the WS” for this to be a good trade, but we probably do have to make the playoffs.
Assuming we resign Holliday, we are set at every starting position next year save 3B, and I’m hoping DeRosa resigns and plays there.
Don’t forget, we still have guys like Mather and Freese who will be back next year. I think 3B and the bench will be fine.
And one more point, I guarantee that BB asked for more. Some of you are freaking out about what we gave up, but every post about Holliday on every board I’ve read this year suggested the A’s wanted more.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
I can say I want Pujols for Brian Bannister
It doesn’t mean I should get anywhere near that.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
For all the talk about Beane being a genius and all
Really, at some point, don’t you have to stop stockpiling young talent and actually go out there and win something?
No, we have to win the pennant
that’s for sure.
Tony kicked and screamed, he got what he wanted. He gets a player for 2 months to try and win it all.
He doesn’t do that, he fails and this deal fails.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
+1
Well said.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
And he and Mozeliak should both be shown the door if it does.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
gotta say
i agree. i’ll have about had it
You are a stubborn TLR-hater
So excuse me if I don’t take your opinion on that to the bank.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
And we all know you set the bar low
as to deflect Tony of any criticism. You are as transparent as cellophane.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This deal has nothing to do with Tony.....
Mo made the trade. Yes, Tony wanted another bat, and we all agreed that we needed another bat. Why go cheap? We have a solid team, and now, we have as good a chance of anybody at winning the WS. That said, YOU know that the best team doesn’t always win. Playoffs are a crapshoot. But we put ourself in the conversation.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
Tony had EVERYTHING to do with this trade
unless you’ve had your head in the sand, Tony has specifically asked for Matt Holliday on 4 separate occasions.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
lack of ability to hit LHP
had something to do with this along with the chance to win this year. Tony doesn’t get all the credit.
so, when we win, it's because tony is the GREATEST MANAGER EVAH!
and if we lose in the playoffs it’s because of chance?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Huh?
I never give Tony ALL the credit.
Had STL made some noise before this trade, I’d have given TLR more credit. I still think he’ll manage this roster better than most others would, but now he actually has a playoff roster, so yea, he’ll get a little less credit in my eyes if we win a WS.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
You are exactly right.
This move has to win the pennant for this to be worthwhile. Anything short, and we blew our wad on a pipedream.
If we don't win the pennant...
this is a fail. Unless the draft picks net us another Rasmus or something.
When Mulder lost game 6 of the 2005 nlcs, that was when the last trade with Beane officially became a debacle.
fail
I don’t know why in the world you would be content with simply getting to the playoffs. Sacrificing the future just to get in the playoffs, with no real expectation of winning, is the hallmark of a bad franchise. Beane had it right when he said that you should either be something special, or build towards being something special. If you don’t do that, then you accept mediocrity. I am afraid that the Cardinals are setting themselves up for a perpetual cycle of competitive but not outstanding.
If you think this deal was OK, then compare what we gave up relative to what Oakland paid to get Holiday in the off-season. Clear win for Beane here.
there's a pretty serious expectation of winning here
this is a really good team, and it got better. but the baseball playoffs really are a crapshoot. You can’t base a trade being successful on winning the world series (the flip side is that you can’t really base a trade on winning the world series, which makes this one suspect) because even the 2006 cardinals can do it.
We didn't "sacrifice" the future.....
Especially if we resign him.
Wallace wasn’t going to the see the field in STL. We didn’t trade away someone that we could just plug into next years lineup.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
You speak with such authority
for someone that doesn’t like facts.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I like "facts" just fine.....
What I don’t like, is the following:
1) People that try to pass opinions off as facts, and
2) People that use faulty “facts/stats” to try to make an end-all argument.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
That ain't me.....
I say all the time that there is more than one way to run a baseball team. TLR has his, it has proven successful over time, and he sticks to it. Are there “other” ways to run it? Absolutely. But Tony’s way wins ALOT of games, so I defer to him. When he stops winning, I’ll start complaining.
I’ve never once said Tony’s way of doing things is the only way. You’ve never made the concession that his way isn’t necessarily wrong.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
Let's make a distinction here between strategy and tactics
We can like a manager’s strategy just fine because he wins a lot of games through the course of his career.
But we can simultaneously question his tactics, the individual moves he makes through the season/in games.
You can defend one of these without defending the other…you don’t have to be all in either way.
So one could say “Tony is a great manager, he’s done a lot for the Cards, I’m sure happy he’s been around” and also say “WTF is the deal with Thurston on the roster!” and not be inconsistent.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
is winning
really a strategy? Isn’t that every managers goal?
Sorry
poorly worded. Winning is not his strategy, it’s his goal.
Things you could list as TLR’s strategy might include:
Sinkerball pitchers/pitching to contact
Proven veterans
Exhaustive bullpen manipulation
etc.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Please
explain to me the difference between strategy and tactics. One and the same to me, and IMHO TLR is the master. OK, Joe is a joke, but this mediocre team is in1 st place. I give T some credit for that.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jul 24, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure
Strategy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy
Tactics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactic_(method)
Quick and dirty: Strategy is general, tactics are specific. So a TLR strategy might be “Employ pitchers who excel at getting groundballs/pitch to contact”. While a TLR tactic might be “Brendan Ryan bunts with a runner on first, nobody out, when down by 1 in the late innings”.
by arch support on Jul 28, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough.....
But part of his strategy is to give bench guys alot of AB’s, to put mediocre players in platoons when necessary, and not force feed rookies. Obviously there are TONS more, but you can’t change your longterm plan on a game to game basis. If his plan is to rotate 4 OF’s for the first month of the season, partly to get the rookie acclimated, partly to take advantage of righty/lefty splits, and partly just to see what you have, you can’t abandon that “just b/c”.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
I know this isn't the time or place for it
but for GOB’s sake man, it is A LOT….
carry on
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
We could have just signed him at the end of the season in the FA market,
and still have Wallace.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
the playoffs are a crapshoot...
look at 2004 – the Cardinals were BY FAR the best team in the entire league in the regular season and lost in the WS and 2006 – the Cardinals were BY FAR the worst team to make the playoffs (reg. season) and won the WS.
personally I just view 2006 as a karmic rebalance for 2004
Still, when making decisions, you have to do the thing that will give you the highest probability of success. And here I mean greatest probability of success over the long term — not only the thing that will make you most likely to win this year.
Personally,
I view 2006 as we were crappy in the regular season because of injuries and the team got healthy which led to us getting hot. (man, is that a run on or what?)
More protection for The Mang with runners on base...
PLUS the benefit of Albert’s SLG in the 4 hole with runners on would outweigh the loss of his OBP in the 3rd spot. Holliday’s high OBP is a marginal step down. The trade off would be well worth it.
Well that sucks
I didn’t like a straight up deal, so I like this even less. Those guys have so many pitchers already. They should have been kicking one our way.
I am going to have to try to block this out as best I can, because Holliday is a fantastic ballplayer, and we should have a good team the rest of the way. Unfortunately, the most likely scenario is that everybody feels buyers remorse sometime between 10-1 and 11-1. There is only one outcome where this works to our benefit. There’s no poker analogies for this one. This is playing roulette.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Always bet on Black.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh we put about 10 million on a number
which number remains to be seen, since #5 is already taken.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Paging Flim for Photoshop
“Mo, just when I think you couldn’t possibly get any dumber, you do something like this, and TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!!” – TLR
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
Does trading Wallace
give Freese a easier passage to third base. I wonder if that was any consideration, assuming they were truly projecting Wallace at third.
One more time...to see if I get a response.
According to ESPN.com, our current team salary is
88,528,409, not including Holliday.
Let’s assume here that Glaus and Greene are both not going to be resigned, since essentially we don’t need either of them now and both are in the last year of their contract.
Also, with our new acquisition, we are probably not going to resign Rick Ankiel. And this salary still includes Duncan. If you take out all of those salaries for next year, we have a team salary of roughly $66million.
So, if we resign Holliday for say…$15million/year, and sign DeRosa for the same price tag he has now, that brings our total salary up to $81million, which is less than our current salary. We can fill some backup and bench spots with some "B" type players and still have around $5-10 million to work with. I’m not sure who else we would have to resign next year, but it seems to me that Holliday will fit perfectly in with the salary budget we have…at least for the next couple of years.
Anyone think this is how it will all work out? What others do we have to resign at the end of this year that are necessary?
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
y'know, if you want to start your own side-discussion
You could always post a Fanpost.
The comment sections are like the playoffs. A crapshoot.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think...
this is necessary to discuss whether or not we can re-sign Holliday…don’t you?
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
yeah, but you're also fishing for comments
That’s what I was addressing.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Definitely not...
Just trying to make a point that we will have space to sign Holliday plus the others we see as a necessity to re-sign.
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
oh, okay
I must’ve read into posting it twice and titling it “One more time…to see if I get a response.”
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
not only should it be discussed whether or not we can....
it should be discussed whether or not we should…..he’s already turned down a 4 year $72 million dollar offer from the Rockies, which is why they traded him
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at the numbers he was posting then...
they were gigantic in Coors and Coors was likely the only place he could consistently post those numbers, so he was asking more to stay there. Other places his value is not that high.
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
umm...
you go ahead and tell Boras and Holliday that……
What’s worse is even if he does produce big numbers in Saint Louis, it makes it EVEN LESS likely that he’ll get re-signed.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
they better nail those 2 draft picks....
no adam ottavino’s next year!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Next year
We are gonna draft Bryce Harper and some phenom high school pitcher named “Clark Kent Jr.” that nobody has ever heard of. He wears glasses but his talent is described as “other-wordly”. And he pitches better in day games.
Bet on it!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Aren't they the same guy?
I think Harper is Clark Jr., only after joining the witness protection program to protect himself from Lex Luthor.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
bryce harper is so good
he wrote the april fools piece about sidd finch… seven years before he was born.
Bryce Harper can make the first out at third base
and still end up scoring a run.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I once saw Wieters...
…hit a home run to dead CF and, because the ball had so much backspin, it backed over the wall, through the outfield, and ended up resting against the back of the mound.
True story.
Harper got so good at hitting...
…by hitting off of himself. Conversely, this is also how he got good at pitching. I’ll let you figure it out.
Bryce Harper is Dr. Manhattan.
Bryce Harper would be in the major leagues right now, but that would throw off the competitive balance of professional baseball.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's my question though:
If you had Superman on your team, and had to choose between pitcher or position player, which do you make him?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
if he's allowed to fly, and I'm in the NL
I’m thinking he pitches, bats third, and covers the outfield on line drives. Batman’ll be pissed, but he’s never been a team player.
Batman, naturally, would be the bat boy
Or would that be Robin?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
tentative lineup
1. Flash (CF)
2. Spider Man (LF)
3. Bonds (RF)
4. Superman (P)
5. Captain America (2B)
6. Iron Man (3B)
7. Mr. Fantastic (1B)
8. Thing ©
9. Nightcrawler (SS)
Thing is copyrighted
my wife is going to half to pay a lot of royalties!
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wait, you're
batting Superman 4th instead of Pujols?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Batman would get his revenge
Given enough time to plan a trap for Superman of course. He’d put kryptonite into the rosin bag somehow, and have some sort of bat-speed increasing exoskeleton hidden underneath his uniform.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Batman
“He’s not the outfielder we deserve, but he’s the outfielder we need.”
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Depends where he wants to play
Were it my decision, he’s pitching. He could probably throw like 138 MPH or something, so he’ll just throw gas by the hitter. Then he’ll go hit and drop bombs. Keep in mind that you don’t HAVE to use the DH in the AL.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Superman wouldn't need to rest his arm as much
Just get plenty of sunshine from Earth’s yellow sun. So he could play the field 4/5 of the time and pitch a complete game the other days.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Right
That $20MM per year salary will make Albert’s mind start to work. “If Matt Holliday is worth $20MM, I must be worth at least $30MM annually.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I think Albert should ...
be paid $30 million….but thats a totally different duscussion.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Re-sign
Not really. To re-sign him, we’re going to have to pay him market value, and we could have signed him in the off-season WITHOUT trading Wallace, so it really has no impact, other than we actually get MORE value (2 picks) by NOT signing him.
KJOK
I don't see what play logic and rationality have in this discussion
Plus the bigger question is whether Holliday will re-sign. The numbers may work out assuming he doesn’t try to squeeze us.
A hint...
…if no one responds to your post, don’t get upset and repost it somewhere else trying to get someone to pay attention. In comment-sections like this the page refreshes often and there are side-discussions that people get involved in. If someone misses your comment, it’s nothing personal.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I Heard He Tripped Getting into the Lear and Cracked His Skull Open
Out for the season.
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I heard he wasn't paying attention and ran into the Walrus on his way out of town
Eighteen broken bones.
Ludwick will tell him to go see Carp about run support..... and look out for rug burns.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
we don't talk about luggage
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
It will play out like this...
…first he’s going to sit out because “it’s barking.”
Then he’ll go on the DL, retroactive of course.
Then he’ll come back early and clearly stink for a week or so.
He’ll go back to the DL and someone will say that he’s just not quite ready.
Then he’ll retire b/c of a severe injury and the Cards medical staff will look at each other with confused expressions on their faces.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
sadly, I can actually see that happening
“I didn’t know my own strength!”
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Busch III
but he doesn’t get to face our pitchers anymore.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Or just, you know, Busch.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
Tony on Holliday
Tony La Russa on tonight’s lineup and Matt Holliday: “If he gets here, he plays.”
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
They just asked LaRussa about Chris Duncan
And he said “Who?”
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I like this toy better
On the plus side here, at least the new toy is actually a very good all-around player. Plus, of course, he’s not broken.
Bit your tongue...
Plus, of course, he’s not broken.
Yet…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
no reason to expect failure
I too sense the strong potential for this to go down lake Mulder-Haren. However, there is no reason at all to expect that Holliday will break down — well other than karma perhaps — and position players are obviously less of an injury risk than pitchers. Especially less than pitchers the A’s choose to let go.
get the parachute ready
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Exactly right golf hog....
people don’t realize how much we have comming off the books next year…i think its entirely possible we could resign Holliday…look at what MANNY got this year….who else is going to be after Holliday that he would wnat to play for? I doubt the Angles, Rangers, Yanks, Sox, Rays, (maybe phils or mets could) or any other perenial contender could pull off a Holliday signing in the offseason…a power RH hitting outfielder looks pretty good in our lineup this year and for years to come
You forget that he's a Boras client.
You can’t base your decision on where he’ll sign based on the best place for him to play. He’ll go where the money takes him. Ask Jeff Weaver if Boras clients stay where they’re best suited.
you forget that
manny was a scott boras client and only got $20 mil garunteed…its a different economy and though he will be one of the most sought after FA…if we let him get there…it wont be a blockbuster $80 mil deal…yes it will take money but we had pujols, rolen, jimmy at the same time….we can take on another big contract like pujols and carps..i think 4 yr/$60 is prety fair starting point….what team is gonna go way over the top of that…realisticly.
He still went where the money was offered, and ...
Manny didn’t have any takers cuz he’s an asshole. If he hadn’t walked out on the Red Sox, there would have been a bidding war like Boras expected. He simply underestimated the fact that owners have SOME backbone.
Apples and oranges...
MannyBManny is perceived as a flake at best and a jerk at worst. He’s a poor OF’er and teams are starting to pay more attention to defense b/c it’s more easily measured now than before.
Holliday is a high character individual who is a pretty good hitter and a good fielder. Holliday is a more valuable commodity than Manny b/c of this. So yeah, Holliday is likley going to be the subject of a Boras-controlled bidding war. The Giants have a fair amount of coin and can’t hit. The Yankees have an aging and kind of crappy OF AND limitless resources. Hell even with their spending spree last season they had a fair amount of money left b/c a lot of guys came off the books. The Sawx may ditch Bay if they can get Holliday, who is a better all-around player. The Mets are a wealthy team that is in the process of exploding, so they may go after Holliday out of desperation.
Could we conceivably outbid these teams? It’s possible if Mo is willing to completely torch the barn for him. However you can pretty much kiss Albert Pujols goodbye, b/c though he’s probably willing to take a reasonable amount of coin he’s not going to take $6M per or something.
From where I sit, you can kiss Holliday good-bye.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
but what if having Holliday
is merely a distraction to garner the draft picks and Jason Bay?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
Yanks have plenty of cash
coming off the books. If Matt wants to pull a CC, NYY will sign him. If Boston can’t sign Bay, Red Sox will sign him. Look at the two picks combined with the playoffs as the positves in this deal. And use the cash to sign Shelby Miller.
FANPOST
on this subject up. Your analysis of this is way off and so is golf hog’s.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
So nice to know we're sacrificing our farm system
because our manager is a spoiled 8-year-old demanding things from the GM.
I want La Russa gone.
by craig3410 on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I kinda see it that way, too.
I hope they know more than I do on the subject. If this is just to placate a spoiled brat, I’ll be pretty aggravated. I still don’t think throwing in a pitching prospect was in our best interests.
jump to conclusions a little?
Not to interrupt this whine fest, but if you’ll notice we are in first place and have a pretty damn good roster finally.
Ludwick/Holliday/Rasmus in the OF and DeRosa/Ryan/Skip/Pujols on the IF.
Lugo and K Greene backing up. Glaus a possibility. This team is looking up.
This was Mo's call
Hold him accountable
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
like I posted above....
he’d better hit homeruns on both of these draft picks we MIGHT get
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd love this trade if it were
for Roy Halladay….Matt Holliday…meh…he’s an improvement, but unless he’s going to sign for $12 million/year or less…not worth it. A ring changes everything though. I just don’t think this puts us over the top
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:03 PM EDT reply actions
agreed
i think the cubs are still better and will likely go on a ridiculous hot streak sometime soon.
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I just laughed out loud...haha
(OT: I think it should be a man rule that men never use “LOL”)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
maybe im just paranoid
but they have all the pieces and are only a game back
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
rec..
a simple “haha” would suffice in all situations
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I do like "LMFAO"
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
it is a little better...
LOL is just “cutesy” and emasculating
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget
that it’s ok to use it when ridiculing someone.
The Cubs and ridiculous hot streak just don't go together.
Especially, when there’s a pennant on the line. Having the best talent has never stopped them from folding before.
Especially if somehow we get back Glaus and K Greene off the DL
It would be like we traded for 2 All – Stars
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't compare Lohse to Wellemeyer
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Wellemeyer's days are numbered...
and you speak of Lohse like he’s some piece of shit 4th starter. Kyle Lohse is better than you average 4th starter…
V, b.
but is he better than Cubs' fourth?
That is what I was responding to…and yes he is certainly better than Todd although I hate his contract
I'd do this package
for Matt KEMP, but not Matt Holliday.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
Kemp is pretty awesome. And you know LA would like to replace Loney with Wallace. Does Kemp still bat 8th? I just don’t get that.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
what's up with loney anyway? how hard is it to find a better 1b than that?
i had thought LA matched up well with us for wallace for just that reason.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Yeah, me too. I dunno who we could have pried from them though.
[Obligatory fantasy baseball tie-in go!] I actually had Loney as a util guy on my team, and I drafted Kemp as an OF. Guess which one is still on my roster. Kemp is so good.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
it's like season tickets
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
that's terrell owen's new reality show, yes?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So
Anyone think it’d have been a good trade to deal Wallace and Mortensen for Huston Street, Greg Smith and Carlos Gonzalez?
Not afraid to nitpick
I'd laugh,
if this thought didn’t make sick to my stomach.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I would have done that deal last January in a heartbeat...
Now Smith is down and Gonzo seems less likely to develop…
Damnit
I came here this morning with a bad feeling in my gut. The homepage to VEB was slow to load, and I was just staring at a white screen thinking, there better not be anything here that says we just made this trade. Then I saw for Mort too and it just got worse. I knew it was coming I just didn’t want the page to ever load.
As for the Ankiel situation, I see a very simple solution that could be very beneficial and almost make the trade worth:
Ankiel moves back to the rotation and replaces Wellemeyer.
And Craig comes up to replace him.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Crap
Manning of FanGraphs says the A’s are big winners for acquiring Brett Wallace. Jon Heyman calls it a “great deal” for the A’s and Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus calls it an “outstanding” trade for Oakland.
jwilson
I say its an outstanding deal for Oakland
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Oh yeah...
….they got themselves a hitter, one we shoulda kept.
Well, let’s hope Holliday’s bat doesn’t take a holiday, ’cause its a long time ’til next year.
:=8/
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
On the plus side...
Holliday is a really good baseball player. Like, really good. How good is our OF defense now, right?
And, Allen Craig now is our de facto “3B of the future.” Maybe he’ll finally get a shot.
This isn’t helping, screw positive thinking.
don't forget about freese
who’s rehabing at springfield tonight
....my quick smells like french toast...
So what are the corresponding Roster moves?
With Lugo and Holliday?
Barden is one. Who is the other?
Stat Whore
If it's Thurston who is gone I fully support this trade
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 24, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Walters
was sent down for Lugo.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
Well sort of
Walters was sent down for Barden who will be sent down for Lugo
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
bye bye little red riding peej
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Ah Good call
That makes sense
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably Barden...
or Stavinoha. Not sure how many OFers they want. We’ve got all kinds of flexibilty at this point.
it's gotta be
Thurston or Stavinoha….probably stavinoha
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Where is Mo's boy Hardcore Legend to tell him to not do this deal?
DAMNIT
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
Negotiations
Dayton Moore couldn’t get into the ring fast enough with the chair.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
i said not to photoshop it...
ow my eyes
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Walt Jocketty and Mozeliak...
…allegedly from the same night.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
so that's why the GMs have meetings
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Billy Beane acquires OBP machine with big ass and questionable defense
In other news: Sun rises in East
by bgodar on Jul 24, 2009 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Let's just enjoy the year
I’m looking forward to watching Holliday in a Card’s uniform. I don’t care that they gave up a prospect to make this season more interesting, and I’m not concerned about payroll.
After all is said and done, we have a better lineup now.
Over/Under
50% chance of resigning Holliday and Pujols
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Under
Unless one is willing to bite the bullet and take an uber-team friendly deal. That’s not happening IMO.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Who cares about Clayton Mortensen & Shane Peterson?
Aren’t these guys a dime a dozen? And doesn’t trading both of them clear a spot on the 40-man roster for a player the organization likes better?
As far as Wallace goes, BP has a peak translation of his numbers this year at Memphis as .290/.348/.446…. Ok..
Does everyone hate this trade because you are “supposed” to hate trading prospects for players at the deadline? Isn’t it more important that we don’t waste Albert’s next few years, especially since 33 yrs old is the new 38 years old & he won’t hit like this forever?
Boomer.
How are we not wasting Albert's next few years
with 2 months of Matt Holliday?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe because
The next 2 months of Matt Holliday makes the 2009 Cardinals a much better bet to win a title, especially when we didn’t give up anyone on the current roster to make it happen?
Boomer.
don't assume things for other people
I think it’s fair to say that most of the people on this site are intimately familiar with wallace in particular’s statistics, and not traded j. prospect in general.
If you think it’s more important to maximize winning now, that’s fine—it’s a perfectly valid viewpoint. but putting ideas into the other side’s collective mouth is bad form.
well then lets win now.
fuck it. Pick up the phone, Mo, call Ricciardi, and get Colby on a plane to Toronto. Go for broke.
/kinda unfair extrapolation of what you’re saying, but I’m too incensed right now to be logical
cheap pitchers
who can enter the rotation next year are a dime a dozen? Consider that right now Todd Wellemeyer is our 5th starter and we’re paying him something like $3 M and consider that Mortensen would earn about a tenth of that next year and be better and your question is answered!
I thought we were paying Wellemeyer a little over $4MM?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
They aren't interchangeable
Having four of those guys competing for our nos. 4 and 5 slots in the rotation makes the probability that two of them could do so satisfactorily higher. There’s value in that. Especially since their combined salaries would be less than Wellemeyer’s 2009 salary.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Law of large numbers
Or perhaps Law of Throwing a Bunch of Shit.
The more trials/attempts/players/shit you throw at a problem, the more likely something will work.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
So... once again...
doesn’t this just mean that one of the above pitchers plus Ottavino or Hawksworth or Heane or Lynn fill into the spot for Mortensen?
Boomer.
now who thinks that prospects are interchangeable?
hearne and ottavino are pretty low on our SP list.
the pitchers with the biggest upside in our rotation were garcia – who is injured — and then probably mortensen and boggs, probably in that order. given that our top prospect for next year’s rotation is coming off surgery, losing the next-best guy is kind of a biggish deal.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
we'll just have to hope Garcia bounces back like Carp.
(2009 version)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
not the 2006, 2007, 2008 versions?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I don't think it's clear...
that Mort would be better. He might be, he might not. And anyway isn’t Boggs ahead of him? And a championship contender really can’t have more than one of Mort/Boggs/Welly in the rotation.
nonononononono!
The real problem with this trade is that Wallace could have contributed positively to our offense right now — especially since we need production from 3B as well as LF — and also freed up the cash to sign someone like Holliday as a free agent this winter. So we gave up a ton to get an improvement for just two months. Holliday over Wallace this year represents a significant but not overwhelming improvement. Wallace + Mortensen cheap over the next six years are so incredibly more valuable than Holliday at free agent market salary that this trade is a huge loser unless we win the world series this year. And we’re still certainly not the favorites to win the world series, or even to win the pennant.
Would Wallace's contribution..
be any greater than even someone like Allen Craig’s would be this season?
Would it be fair to assume that there is the possibility that Holiday’s contributions for just the next two months may be greater than those of Wallace / Mortensen over the next 4 years?
And doesn’t getting the $1.5M back raise the likelihood of signing a Shelby Miller, someone who projects to be much more than Clay Mortensen?
This season? Probably not
Over the next four years, it is highly likely that their combined WS will be substantially more than what Holliday gives us in 2 months, even if their playing was limited.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
sure, this is all about marginal value
I agree that contributions over the next two months should be weighted more than strictly the stats show, given that we have a good chance to make the playoffs. However, this trade does not make us the favorite to win either the pennant or the world series, so I think it’s not worthwhile for us to sacrifice the future for it.
In other words, having Wallace + Mortensen instead of Holliday actually makes us more likely to win the world series — just perhaps next year or the year after instead of this year. So we’ve sacrificed our best chance of ultimate success over the long-term option for immediate gratification. That’s a fail.
As for Allen Craig, I don’t understand why he isn’t in the lineup RIGHT NOW, given our pathetic bench and glaring vulnerability to left-handed pitching. I understand that defense is a problem, but why exactly do we accept sub-par defense from some players (Duncan, Miles, Thurston, etc.) while making it a huge barrier to others?
Question...
And this is pretty lame, I know, but if Holliday does play tonight, does he wear a blank jersey? Do we already have him one printed up? If so, how the heck does that work?
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
jerseys and such can be embroidered on the spot
You gotta keep up with the textile technologies.
Look at the Nationals.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
link because I'm a nerd
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
the Japanese are making baseball playing robots
Ichiro is just the prototype…….
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I hate that commercial
Hey customer, you shouldn’t buy cars from that foreign company! They also make other useful stuff besides cars, and that’s lame!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Most large Japanese companies
are conglomerates. They are often in multiple very different business that, in the U.S., would be separate companies.
I guess there's only one thing left to do....
Win the whole, f*cking, thing.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Just out of curiosity
Is it possible that our impending Rule 5/40-man roster problems played a role in our willingness to part with the spects in this deal (not Wallace, obviously, but the other two)?
I'm not seeing a huge crush...
on our 40-man. Pre-trade we had 38 spots filled with potential deletions in the form of:
Barden
Ankiel
Thurston
Stavinoha
Glaus
K Greene
Wellemeyer
Thompson
Kinney
Maybe we have a huge need coming up from below, I don’t quite know about that.
Mo just validated
Duncan and TLR, along with Strauss and company. Apparently Mo agrees that there is very little down there.
Well, from a very general and optimistic view...
Regardless of the future consequences of this deal, it’s hard to argue that it doesn’t solidify the Cardinals as the best team in this division. It’s safe to say the lineup is the best in the division with DeRosa and Holliday, and you could make the same argument for the rotation (whenever Wellemeyer is kneecapped) and the bullpen. So I sure hope it’s worth it…
V, b.
To replace Wellemeyer
We should just call up Morten—-
Wait
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
I'm worried about the Cubs
Harden is pitching more like Harden, Z is pitching well, Lilly is still pitching well…Lee has his power stroke back, Ramirez should improve as he gets back in the swing of things, and it’s hard to imagine that Bradley won’t pick up the pace.
Mo sees these things, too. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cubs are a major reason this trade was made.
Its not that hard to imagine Bradley won't pick up the pace
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
OMG
I hadn’t even considered that. Just imagine if the Cubs still beat us out for the division this season. We will never live it down. Ugh. Time to start drinking, or I’m going to lose my mind the rest of the day thinking about all these angles.
There's still the Wild Card...
No one from the East scares me outside of the Phillies, so you basically just have to be better than Colorado and San Francisco…
V, b.
Lilly is hurt
and I believe he’s missing his next start (today?) with a knee problem.
We could possibly have an orgy of Draft picks next year
Holliday – Type A
Glaus – Type A
DeRosa – Type B but is one away from being a Type A
Ankiel – Type B
Pineiro – Type B
Wellemeyer – Type B
Stat Whore
Possibly being the key word.
Do you really think we offer arb to Glaus?
I’d bet on DeRosa being re-signed. Wouldn’t surprise me if Ank is resigned either if he agrees to play for cheap.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
If he recovers, Yes
The 3B market is pathetic next season
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
David Freese
I think that Mo has essentially handed Freese the 3B job in 2010 with this move. I don’t think that we re-sign DeRosa, we re-sign Pineiro, and then have a youngster contest for the no. 5 slot.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I don't want DeRosa back if he is Type A FA
I would rather have the picks
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but now that
TLR’s been appeased, what’s to keep him from pressuring Moz again next year for a new 3B (not Freese?).
The problem with giving in to bullies is that they continue to bully afterwards.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
And Pineiro
And multiple other Proven Veterans…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I really do not believe
that Tony intends to play Freese at 3B. He certainly has no intention of trying Alen Craig. It’ll be DeRosa or Glaus.
(((crosses fingers)))
Come on David Freese Rehab
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Would it be so horrible to have a healthy Glaus at 3B next year?
Schu
Raz
Pujols
Holliday
Ludwick
Glaus
Molina
Ryan
We won’t have anymore problems with lefties.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
ank
do the cards offer arb? i don’t think i would.
WTF WELLEMEYER CAN"T possibly be a TYPE B
Chuck Norris doesn't need a bat.
he just roundhouse kicks the ball out of the park.
by bearcatcardfan on Jul 24, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Elias Rankings are horrible
Glaus is a Type A and hasn’t even played this season
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
they take into account two years of stats
and i’m guessing a few of the stats taken into account are counting stats. it also probably helps that he has 7 wins this year.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
I don't know who Brian Feldman is
but he just shit all over Ryan Ludwick and the entire farm system on national television.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:25 PM EDT reply actions
I can understand shitting on the farm system
But how could anyone really shit on Ryan Ludwick? I mean, he was amazing last year and he’s heating up again—hitting, like, .400+ this month.
Screw you, mysterious Mr. Feldman.
I personally liked how he crapped all over Ludwick as struggling
yet his numbers are better than Holliday’s.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So, has he not paid any attention to the Cardinals in the month of July?
Ignorant foppishness there.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
In fairness to Mr. Feldman
I’m always astounded by how good Luddy’s numbers are when I look at them.
Then again, Mr. Feldman is paid to know these things. So screw that guy.
We didn't anyway
Not without coughing up Rasmus. Word is that the Jays want Happ AND Drabek from the Phillies. That’s a blue-chip pitching prospect and a guy who’s been totally dominant in the majors so far this year. We can’t match that.
yes, roy halladay cried a single cy-young-quality tear.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
he's on 101.1 espn radio in st. louis
usually reasons like a dumbass
....my quick smells like french toast...
He is on ESPN 101.1 in Saint Louis
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Brian feldman
Is one of Wallace’s biggest fans. He more than likely was crying on his couch sending Goold text messages of “why god why?!?” right before going on ESPN.
I really think this was all part of the plan
to replace Ankiel in the outfield so he could be used to replace Wellemeyer. I think thats worth a shot.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
He hit a HR last night
I’m ashamed of Cardinals fans. I thought they had good memories!
Vomit.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well yea, he has had a good three games
But its hard to play a .219 BA much with Holliday, Rasmus, and Ludwick
so why not put him somewhere where he could be more useful?
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
is this serious??
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 24, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll wait to evaluate this trade on November
I’ll probably hate Mo and LaRussa then, but until then I am going to enjoy watching Albert hit in this lineup. Wow!
It's hard to say whether this is a good trade or not.
It’s definitely one of those “wait and see” type of deals.
That being said, I’m pumped because we just became World Series contenders overnight. I’m also pumped because I live in Chicago and Cubs fans are absolutely shitting themselves right now.
Let’s go win this damn thing.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
At least its good timing
I’d have to say I’m still on still on the fence with this trade. I’m not very familiar with the farm system personally but from prior discussions on VEB it sounds like we lost a lot. What I do like about this trade is the timing. We’re about to start a tough stretch of games against Philly then LA. I feel if this trade helps our odds at winning one or two games here that we would have lost then tossing in Mortensen and Peterson just to get a deal before the deadline may be well worth it.
rec'd
First one I’ve ever given out. You get a standing O from me, sir.
Now be prepared to get bombarded with comments like “DONT TELL ME HOW I SHOULD FEEL”
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
don't tell me how I should feel
about his comment
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Glass Half Full
I appreciate everyone’s collective passion, knowledge and insight into my favorite team and organization. But it pains me and saddens me to read things like, “if they don’t win a ring, then it’s a bad trade”; “I feel sick”; “Our future is sunk”. Number crunching and speculation aside, can’t we for a moment step away from the sabermetric machine and appreciate our club trying to make a move to excite the fanbase and compete for a title. Win or lose, it will be exciting and I have a feeling our future will work out – with or without Wallace, who, by the way, does not have a single major league at bat – so I’m pretty sure we have no idea how he will perform. This community of fans is so important to me, but you all have such a tendancy to be so pessimistic, mired in trees, forgetting about the forrest. We now have a very exciting second half of the season ahead of us. Let’s be hopeful and supportive?
by mattysha on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I'm hopeful, but also pretty reserved about it
You can’t just turn the way you think about baseball on a macro level off. You’re right inasmuch as I am really going to enjoy watching Matt Holliday play here for a few months. It will be exciting. But you can’t not think about the circumstances that got him here.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Exactly right.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I basically feel the same,
I mean, it’s nice that our team can do this kind of thing as there’s no indication that Chicago (no prospects) or Milwaukee (no money) are going to match us with a move. This puts us up on them once again, but it’s difficult to swallow when you look at the surplus value numbers. In the long run, two months of Holliday just can’t be worth this much.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
When you root for a team
over the course of years or even a lifetime, then you want to minimize those years in which the team is mired in 3rd, 4th, and 5th place finishes. Without this trade the Cardinals were in contention. They might not have made the playoffs, but they were a playoff contender. The team was then well-positioned to fill at least one hole (third base) with a guy who was possibly/probably and impact player, and six years of implact player-ness at that. Now, if you resign Holliday, you put the team in tight financial constraints when it comes to signing two starting pitchers and a third baseman. That’s not to mention the looming cash-crunch that will come with Pujols’ next contract. If you don’t resign him, you get the picks, which could help you in 2-3 years.
Looking at it from the perspective of wanting to watch a playoff-bound (or at least contending) ball club in 2010 and 2011, it seems this puts us in a weaker, not stronger position.
Beane has said that you’re always either trying to win a championship now, or are rebuilding to win one in a few years. In this trade, he essentially said, “since I’m not winning now, I’ll take the pieces that will help me win in a few years.” And he’s taking those pieces from the Cardinals. While it’s not a direct correlation, his taking pieces to win later makes the Cardinals less (and in this case I believe much less) likely to put out a playoff-bound ball club in the next two or so years. This year, yes. Beyond that, no.
I like our chances alot moving forward for this season
but in processing the trade on the whole, I don’t like the long-term ramifications. If by some miracle we can keep Holliday and still afford Albert when the time comes then I’d be happy. That said, it’s very unlikely that in the longrun we look back at this move favorably
that's pretty harsh, dude.
What I like about Cardinals fandom and VEB in particular is that if something good happens, we crap ourselves going crazy about it. If something bad happens, we do… well, the same, except with facts and supportable opinion.
Also, before this goes any further (I’ve seen a few other comments to this effect), is anybody slamming Matt Holliday the man? I don’t think that’s the case. He’s going to get a warm welcome. Even the jokes about injuries are slams on the Cardinals medical staff, not actual wishes of harm. This comment thread is by-and-large about the trade. You don’t have to agree with the reaction, but you’re talking to, by and large, people who have been watching developments for a few years, who have the facts and projections, and are reacting to that, not what ESPN spoon-feeds us.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
yeah
everybody was nutting over the derosa trade
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
We just lost our best position/hitting prospect and our best starting pitching prospect (IMO) for two months of Matt Holliday.
Thanks, but I’m seeing the forest just fine from here.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 24, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
we do have an idea of how wallace will perform
what we don’t know is how good he will be. this is the same thing i heard last year at this time about rasmus. it was all “unproven” this and “bust” that and now he’s untouchable by the majority of the fanbase.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Rasmus has a position
Wallace is still trying to stick at 3B and is no lock for a position other than 1B
not this time last year
rick was the 30 year old CF of the future and colby was blocked.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Because, of course,
Ankiel=Pujols
Right….
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
last year at this time he was hitting well
and people were saying that we could sign him to a 3 year deal and trade colby.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
it was all the rage during the peavy talks
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
you're not actually reading the opinions of most of these posters.
i see very few people saying “Wallace was our 3b for the next 6 years.” i think you would find very few people who actually think wallace was untouchable in the way colby rasmus is. colby really IS our CF for the next 6 years.
people just think it sucks to trade our #1 prospect for an overpriced LF who will be either gone in three months or EXTREMELY expensive.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
That's a bit extreme
This has very little to do with number-crunching or anything like that.
John Mozeliak just swapped a respectable starting prospect and a pretty damn good hitting prospect for two months of a pretty good player.
And no…I can’t just step aside and say "Oh, well at least Mo wants to win!’ I expect our GM to want to win, and I expect him to make decisions with both micro and macro-level issues in mind. This is unquestionably a micro-level deal. There is no way that Holliday resigns here, no matter the lip-service about making a competitive offer or whatever.
with or without Wallace, who, by the way, does not have a single major league at bat – so I’m pretty sure we have no idea how he will perform.
No he doesn’t. But neither had Albert Pujols in 2000, nor Colby Rasmus in 2008, nor Babe Ruth in 1900. You never know what a prospect will do until they step on the field, but we do have scouts and statistics that give you a pretty good clue. Wallace has always been a high average/some pop hitter and likely will always be. If he can play third passably he’ll be a pretty valuable player and will be said valuable player for quite some time for quite a low price.
The Cardinals are gambling that a few months of Holliday can bring a title, and are betting several years of cost-controlled talent. I’m not simply going to overlook that just b/c it’s exciting or whatever.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and something else
Don’t forget, we also don’t know how Holliday will perform either. It is a logical fallacy to presume that “established players” will perform to historical norms while assuming that “prospects” won’t. Every player’s future performance must be projected. It will be interesting to see their relative performance if the A’s bring up Wallace this year, as many people (notably Keith Law) think Wallace’s bat plays well in the majors right now.
Its almost as if...
before this season began, Beane knew if he acquired Holliday he could later use him to fleece that Cardinals for Wallace. Mo never stood a chance against his evil ways
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:31 PM EDT reply actions
Holliday will be in Philly in time for tonight's game, right?
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
actually, untrue
They chartered a train.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
er, I mean the DC to Philly jump
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
don't even joke about that...
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
FLAG'D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
But seriously, what does this do to the bench
Particularly if Glaus comes back? Lugo stays, LaRue stays, Thurston/Hoffpaur/infielder stays, does Ankiel or a 13th pitcher? The schedule is a little less brutal. Just wondering
13th pitcher will be gone by August
Moz said it awhile ago
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
untrue. we have an easy stretch on the horizon, but it will be the last easy stretch
gimme a minute to find my spreadsheet
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
So what is Ankiel's reaction to this trade?
He’s gotta be pissed, his playing time just plummeted.
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
Colby's probably did too
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope not
the kid needs a chance to break out of his slump
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
you're very restrained. i expected to see a few electronic cow pies posted.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
You guys
are too hilarious. I was riding my Harley the other day somewhere and saw a sign that reminded me of Moocow, but now I can’t remember it. It was hilarious, and appropriate. It had nothing to do with cowpies! Peace brothers!
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jul 24, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
This made me laugh...
RT @2xAught7 Troy Glaus on Facebook (hold back the laughter) Troy Glaus can’t wait to play catch with Matt Holliday! Fuck Ya! 3 minutes ago
....my quick smells like french toast...
who's the 3rd guy playing catch haha :)?
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Happy thoughts:
This lineup is really, really good.
The bullpen has been solid.
There’s decent OBP off the bench.
And we have a pretty damn good front four in the rotation.
We’re in first place!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yes we can!
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
on the plus side.
We know have a real lineup with few wholes. (Ryan now being our worst hitter in the every day line up.) and our top 3 pitchers match with every other teams top 3. I like our changes a lot.
He needs to release Wellemeyer to improve the heart health of Cardinal Nation
REgardless of stats, he has been attrocious to behold as a pitcher every fifth day.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
FFUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by chuckb on Jul 24, 2009 1:35 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kaaaaaaaaaaaaahn!
My thought exactly.
But remember that he was playing him (hours = minutes).
I expect Mo to do the same.
By the book, Mr. Spock
Mo doesn’t believe in the no-win scenario!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Got a commendation for original thinking
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaann!!
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
What happened?
to engender that long string of expletives deleted?
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jul 24, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck me in the goat ass.
I hate this trade.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions
"Me too, bro."
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
you're thinking of the Mets
or Juaquin Andujar
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
I usually agree with your posts. But why do you hate it? I don’t think that Wallace would ever have been our 3B because of D, so I think that it works. To me, we got rid of Chris for Holliday. I see the 2 trades as linked. It is all good, because I don’t see Mortenson as front line P. Many folk talk about Jocketty as a guru, but IMHO Mo is doing it too. I look on this as a Larry Walker-like trade. There was nothing wrong with that one either. Cheers from the mountains!
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jul 24, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
A few reasons...
Wallace was our number one hitting prospect and Mort was (IMO) our number one starting pitching prospect. Peterson could be ok (I don’t know why he didn’t get more Daryl Jones comps – though, then again, I’m not that high on DJ “Tools” because I think some of those tools aren’t as good as we think – namely speed, arm, and power.)
To me, Wallace might have been able to take over 3rd next year since it looks like we’re going to need one of those and was also longer-term Pujols insurance at 1st (God forbid). Mort was that 3rd-4th starter that could have been good with Duncan and saved us some money on the FA market.
So, bottom line, I thought we gave up too much in prospects. I don’t know that I ever got a real good read on Wallace’s defense – if he was as bad as some say, that lessens the blow of course.
Last, Holliday (IMO) will be too expensive to sign in the future (at least we’ll get the draft picks).
As for your other point, I was fully on board with jettisoning Duncan. I’ve always thought Ank should play left because of his D and Duncan should never play except for PH and backup 1b.
In any event, I like the way the lineup looks now with Lugo as a RH platoon partner with Schu, Derosa at 3b and Holliday in LF. Let’s see us get to the playoffs and I’ll be the first to give Mo an internet high five.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 28, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I love how Sportscenter has 50 billions stories on Football in July
And a few baseball stories, scattered in-between.
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
They only care about the NFL...
That was supposedly one of MLB’s major motivations to finally start its own network…
V, b.
Ratings, ratings, ratings
NFL stuff kills on TV.
Now we're screwed 2010 and on unti the Dominicans come up
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
The depressing thing is that
We gave Beane Haren, then he turned around and turned Haren into prospects, and then he turned around and turned those prospects into Holliday, and now we’re trading him more good prospects for Holliday.
Beane is such an evil genius.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
[cries]
rec
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
and just like evil geniuses
has nothing to show for it in the end. Really, when is he going to actually win something.
good point...
0 rings for Beane
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
This year, I don't really fault him
He got a steal on Cabrera — Cabrera tanks.
He got a steal on Giambi — Giambi tanks.
He traded for Holliday — Holliday’s power disappears.
Cust stops hitting.
Buck stops hitting.
Ellis stops hitting.
I mean, seriously, someone cursed that team’s offense. It’s bizarre.
Right...
everything that goes well is a feather in Beane’s cap, and everything that goes wrong is due to supernatural intervention.
He’s a good exec. They haven’t won crap during his tenure.
They made the playoffs four years in a row from 2000-2003...
With a tiny payroll compared to the M’s, Angels, and Rangers. We are treading water in the weak NL-central with a $90 million payroll, twice or more what Beane had. I think he did ok.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Building great farm systems since 2003
new Beane slogan? Oakland plays in the AL West. He should be able to pull a title more than once every six seasons if he is such a genius.
That is only true if he has equal opportunities as his competition.
The fact that he wins at all is pretty great considering his payroll is in the bottom 5 of the league every year. They have won 4 of the last 10 AL west division titles for fuck sake, with the Mariners and Angels each spending $100m+! What do you want for him to be considered a genius?
He sticks with prospects and young ass teams because he cant afford FAs. He lets them go get paid somewhere else and gets prospects (like Wallace) and draft picks to replenish the cycle.
Start a fantasy draft, give yourself 60% of what everyone else in the league gets in salary cap, and see if you win 4 out of 10 times.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Beane keeps getting the genius tag
based on his performance in the early Moneyball era. His team has won 1 of the last 6 AL West titles. His method appears not to be working lately.
Gee, I don't know...maybe it had something to do with the fact
that the book about him started a revolution in the way other GMs thought and teams eventually copied him?
“Fuck Thomas Edison, what the fuck has that dude invented lately?”
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
OR
the fact that he manages a team that never spends any fucking money? If he had the Cardinals payroll, I’d be interested to see how he’d do.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
He would shit his pants and not know what to do.
He wouldn’t be able to look like such a genius, because the Cards wouldn’t trade their superstars just to bolster their farm system.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
this entertains me
Almost as much as TLR managing the Mets.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He would field a team for $70 million,
Win the 130 games, and pocket $30m.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Agreed Beane revolutionized the FO
just as Tony revolutionized the bullpen. Doesn’t mean I have to call their every move a genius move.
We disagree okay.
Beane does do some things very well.
He finds talent that others might overlook because of size, shape, lack of power, or missing tools. Rajai Davis types if you will. Nice, cheap, spare parts.
He’s excellent at finding young pitching, both in drafts and trades, and willing to have the patience required to develop it. I think a lot of teams would do well to try and pilfer his scouts/minor league/major league pitching coaches to find the secret formula.
What he’s not good at is putting a WHOLE team together that makes sense on the actual playing field. Some of that has to do with funds. Risky signings, too many of them, are not a solid foundation on which to build a team. Their managers are never very good either-I think because Billy does have to be the smartest man in the room.
I am an A’s fan too. I like this deal from that side of me-they were going nowhere with Holliday, so cashing in makes sense.
For what it’s worth, the park the A’s play in has about 27,000 square miles of foul territory. It really hurts anyone trying to hit there.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
I don't know if it's necessarily
that “Billy has to be the smartest man in the room”.
Rather, I think his baseball philosophy is so particular, and most baseball managers so “old school”, that he has to get someone he can dictate to. Can you imagine if La Russa or Cox or Piniella were his manager?
It’s not an ego thing, it’s a compatability with the program thing.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Compatability, sure. I think ego too.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Oh really?
Several 100 win seasons and an ALCS appearance in 2006, all with a weak payroll. That’s not winning something?
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep in mind...
he’s been to the playoffs once in five years, and then he got swept out of the ALCS.
mmmmm, pendants
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
haha
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
The result of A's trading
As someone on MLBTR pointed out. The A’s gave up Huston Street, Carlos Gonzalez, Greg Smith and 1.5 million for Wallace, Mortensen, and Peterson.
Not the greatest trade in my book.
too bad he doesn't have any rings to show for it
the evil genius always loses in the end
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
I'm way late
and should have read ahead before commenting
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
I hate this trade.
Basically we gave away a great and good prospect for a 2 month rental. Even if we do sign Mulder- I mean Holliday, it will be at market cost. Wallace will be a fine corner IFer for at least 4-5 cost controlled years.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
Does anyone see another move for a back-end of the rotation guy?
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
I see it in the form of a promotion
from Memphis for Either Boggs or Hawksworth
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think so
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Comment from an A's fan on MLB
Okay so I am an A’s fan who is depressed about our team but I just wanted to let the Cardinal fans know something that they may not already know: Holiday was approached by Mark McGwire in spring training and McGwire convinced Holiday to change his hitting stance a little to “help him accomodate the spacious Oakland Collisium”. Well Holiday tried it for 1/2 a season and it did not work for him. Shortly before the allstar break he ditched what McGwire showed him and he has been hitting over .400 since and also hitting more HR’s. I think the Cardinals are getting him at the right time. I still don’t think the A’s should have ever traded FOR Holiday being that our budge is about $40 bux right now but I think Cardinal fans will be happy with what he gives them from this point on. That being said the A’s are thrilled to get the prospects that St. Louis gave them and I do agree that St. Louis fans will be ticked if Holiday does not sign a long term deal and walks after the season.
7/24/2009 1:26:47 PM
Thanks for the imput
Enjoy the Walrus as your future 3B/1B/DH.
"I will grow a mustache bigger than Wyatt Earp's if we keep winning," - Adam Wainwright
by Beware the Molinas on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
that was a quote
the poster is a Cards fan. but I did check out Athletics Nation and I’d describe the mood there as somewhere bewteen cautious optimism and effusive gushing over this trade.
Sounds about right.
This is some vintage Beane.
"I will grow a mustache bigger than Wyatt Earp's if we keep winning," - Adam Wainwright
by Beware the Molinas on Jul 24, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it's on a Yahoo sports column
He’s back to his signature leg kick.
This
is the stuff of my nightmares…
No!…
IMPACT BAT!…
Don’t do it!…
I didn’t think Beane was still capable of this kind of fleecing. I assume the TRL/Chris Duncan revenge trade demand rumors are swirling somewhere around here…
"I will grow a mustache bigger than Wyatt Earp's if we keep winning," - Adam Wainwright
by Beware the Molinas on Jul 24, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions
total request live?!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Tony RaLussa
"I will grow a mustache bigger than Wyatt Earp's if we keep winning," - Adam Wainwright
by Beware the Molinas on Jul 24, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Good trade
Holliday will more than likely be a 131ish OPS+ player for the Cardinals. Assuming he gets a 3-5 year deal with the Birds on the Bat he’ll put those numbers up for quite a while here.
Brett Wallace could hit about the same with much less speed, much less to no defense at a less difficult position or could become the next Daric Barton.
Clay Mortensen will probably be, at best, a #3 starter in the big leagues. He has been heralded as a poor man’s Luke Hochevar in the minors.
I’ve never really heard much about Peterson, but we have several corner outfielders still in the minors, all of whom hope to someday be Matt Holliday and (more than likely) none of whom shall ever be Matt Holliday or thereabouts.
I like the deal.
we pay an extra 50 million
lose a potential #3 starter, and get plus defense. you like that deal?
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
as an addendum
i fucking hate sb nation and this scrolling nonsense right now
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Always hated that
thats why I am not as active on VEB
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
what? people agreeing?
i fucken hate agreements!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
wait
jesus, i should really find context before i post
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
F context
people just want to disagree. Being a Cards fan on VEB is like being married. It sucks!
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jul 24, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
At best...
we get another Ludwick with better speed, better defense, and better on base percentage for another 3-5 seasons. All we had to give up was, potential.
what makes you think we re-sign holliday?
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Boras.
"I will grow a mustache bigger than Wyatt Earp's if we keep winning," - Adam Wainwright
by Beware the Molinas on Jul 24, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Lohse
Let’s hope Mo gets some Boras goodwill because he screwed us so bad on Lohse.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Yes, but ...
not at less than market value. Hell, normally not even market value.
I would be surprised if Holliday settles for a 3-5 year deal, and I wouldn’t expect to get him for less than what Albert makes now. It’ll hurt to re-sign him.
When we
are the top bidders.
"I will grow a mustache bigger than Wyatt Earp's if we keep winning," - Adam Wainwright
by Beware the Molinas on Jul 24, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
nope, sorry
If you believe this, then why couldn’t we have kept Wallace and Mortensen, and then just signed Holliday in the off-season? No matter how you cut it, we have given up one premium prospect and one pretty good prospect for two f’in months of Matt Holliday! Not good.
Assuming he gets a 3-5 year deal with the Birds on the Bat he’ll put those numbers up for quite a while here.
What’s the likelihood of that happening? He’s a Boras client and I can think of 3 teams right off the top of my head who have the resources and desire to go after him.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I posted this above, will again...
We shouldn’t value this trade by our ability to resign Holliday. We could do that in the FA market and still have Wallace.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
I wrote what I wrote in RE: to stlfan's comments
I highly doubt Holliday is resigning with the Cardinals or would sign with us in the off-season. Nothing more, nothing less…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, sorry, I am 100% in agreement with you.
Just emphasizing your point.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
don't they need a bat NOW though
not after the FA season?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
My point was that you can't put possible future years with Holliday in the plus side of this trade
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
prediction
Holliday makes about $17.5 million more than Wallace next season
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not sure you can call a fact a prediction
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Holliday doesn't have a
contract next season…so it is a prediction
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Holliday hasn't been bad
Yes, he was helped for being in Colorado, but even his away lines in Colorado suggested he, while perhaps not elite, was a solid major league corner OF. Look at his numbers this year – after a disastrous start, he’s been solid, albeit, solid but streaky with the power. That said, it’s not like Oakland’s park has depressed his power – his SLG is fine there. It’s actually his away line, which suggests to me a guy that hasn’t adjusted to the league just yet.
I think the trade was worth the gamble for you guys. There’s a part of me that thinks that Wallace could’ve been better utilized as a trade asset for something else, but I’m having trouble coming up with anything that could’ve been done.
roy halladay
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
clay f-in buchholz.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I think it'll
be a fun 2 months – resulting in a short playoff run.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
If pitching wins in the playoffs...
Cross your fingers that Carp/Waino/Pinny/Lohse and healthy and effective come playoff time.
I'd rather see Holliday-Pujols-Ludwick-Rasmus
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I rather see Rasmus lead off
Than Holliday, Pujols, Ludwick, Skip, Derosa, Yadi, Pitcher, Ryan
I just came.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I cannot count high enough to +### this comment appropriately
I am jittery from the mix of fury and excitement.
i'm gonna enjoy this year
but wallace was an exciting prospect. not happy about the big picture
let’s go and win and shut all of us up for a couple months, now
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
It's a dangerous lineup
but cocaine is a hell of a drug. The ride is high but afterwards…
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Buy the ticket, take the ride
Other mysteries remain. TL
Yeah.
I’m not sure it was a great deal, but honestly:
- We filled the gaping holes at 5 & 6 in the lineup
- We significantly improved our defense in the OF (& prolly 3B, too)
- We still have as good a rotation as anybody in the league (hold on Joel)
- & so far we haven’t lost anything from this team.
We should have a heck of a chance.
Agreed
when it comes to 09, but next year:
a) resign Holliday
-result: cash strapped to fill three vacancies (3rd and two starting pitchers) and making it harder to resign APu
b) don’t resign, take the draft picks
-result: need to find a 3rd baseman (at considerably greater cost than Wallace), left fielder, and two starting pitchers.
would have been nice to plug what was likely an impact bat into that 3rd base hole.
Well, your scenarios do forget that
we will still have Craig, Mather, and Freese next year. I know none of them will be superstars, but I’m willing to bet that at least one of them proves to be a capable MLB player.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
im not pissed
Disappointed I’ll miss a Wallace hitting long balls next year. But I trust will have more prospects for us to get excited about soon.
(PS Mo. Sign Miller already.)
Me
Despite having read BTB’s analysis of Halladay’s (I do mean Halladay) value vs. Wallace, it’s done now, beyond our control, and we’re left with the spectacle. Point being – though it is obviously a heavy price to pay, we get to watch it unfold and once we’ve accepted there’s no turning back on this one, i.e. consumed enough pepto bismol, this excellent distraction to life that is baseball, is all ours. Now go out and sick that lineup on the world ~ “There’s not to reason why / There’s but to do or die.”
Other mysteries remain. TL
"There's" = "Theirs"
Sorry. Yes I’m that guy.
by santiagofish on Jul 24, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
"Theirs" = "Their's"
Then you’ll really be that “guy” :)
Other mysteries remain. TL
I think I'm right!
“Theirs” is possessive in the same way that “its” is, too, even without the apostrophe.
by santiagofish on Jul 24, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm quoting
from Alfred, Lord Tennyson, not Wagner’s English Grammar ~ but if you wanna go dig him up and tell him otherwise, gets to it!
Other mysteries remain. TL
Also "sick" = "sic"
Other mysteries remain. TL
So who else is really pissed
But kinda excited to see Raz-Pujols-Holliday-Ludwick?
exactly the same. But mostly a bit depressed.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 24, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
[slowly raises hand while glancing around with an embarrased smile on his face]
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 24, 2009 6:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I have a strange feeling you'll like it by the end of the year
now, come 2012, this may suck.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
i was definitely on the dont do it Mo side of the fence
However I think there are some things to consider -
1. Mo and Lunhow are farm system guys in terms of philosophy. They want to build from within but thought this was the best move for the team. That tells me Wallace was going to be a 1B or nothing, which eliminates his value to our roster.
2. I dont think it jeopardizes the future as much as others. We can try to get Holliday on an extension or spend the money from him and Glaus elsewhere.
exactly
if the Cardinals scouts/brass thought Wallace had any chance at sticking at 3rd base, they would not have made this deal.
But they could have gotten much more for the package they sent to Oakland
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you
and in a perfect world, maybe we would’ve gotten something better. However, the biggest bat on the market was Holliday, and that’s what it took to land him.
I would be comforted by
your theory … except that I see the fingerprints of TLR — and DeWitt’s fear of angering TLR — all over this. I am afraid this trade was not JUST about baseball. And I’m betting even money that Moz is a little bit nauseous right now.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm betting Mo is a happy man
because right now he has a happy clubhouse (minus Ankiel), and a happy majority of the fan base (the average Cardinal fan doesn’t give a fuck about Brett Wallace, we live in a nation that loves instant gratification, and Matt Holliday offers that).
instant gratification
and here I thought thinking about baseball helped with that…
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Unless he was forced into this,
by his boss trying to appease our bizarre manager, which I think is quite possible. Like it does for the Cardinals, this move gives Moz temporary relief and increases the headache quotient in years to come.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm pissed
This was dumb beyond all reconizitiionn.
by DriverZn on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
You have been spell check'd
This Spell Check is brought to you by Karl’s Jr.
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
by The_teague on Jul 24, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
awesome
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, when you wake up to this news
Its hard to type while bashing you head against the keyboard out of frustration at the extreme stupidity of this trade.
Seriously this is just as bad as the Mulder for Haren deal.
OT: Anyone just see John McEnroe own that guy on SC?
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
When you get depressed about Wallace, THINK THIS:
We have just acquired:
-A 3-time All-Star.
-A 3-time Silver Slugger Winner.
-A base-stealing threat (28 last year, 12 this).
-An exceptional defensive LF (we just saved runs out there).
-The 2007 NLCS MVP.
-The 2007 NL MVP runner-up.
-Late and close in a game last year he hit .330.
-This year he’s hitting .313 in the 9th inning…
…and .351 with 2 outs and RISP.
-The dude is a player. He gets on base. He’s clutch. He’s a Cardinal.
-And Mark McGwire worked with him in the offseason. There’s your STL salesman and reason for re-upping optimism.
Let’s stop thinking about Billy Beane for now and watch the fun.
watch the fun, for ten weeks, maybe 14
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
This will make me feel great come November
And then next April when Holliday takes the field for the Yankees.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Okay I'm done being mad
I can’t undo the trade, and it will be fun to watch our revamped lineup.
At least now the STL media will stop saying that Mo is too cowardly to do things. On some day soon our lineup will have DeRosa, Lugo, and Holliday in it.
Let’s go win the goddamn division. I’ll have years to pretend that I don’t remember who Wallace is, or to talk about the invisible player who’s DH’ing for Oakland.
Hmmm ... maybe
so about the “media,” but this trade will appease the stupider fans for about … 2 weeks, I’m guessing.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not
holliay is a good way to end up in the playoffs, but without the pitching to shut down the opponent in a 7 game series, we’re toast. for us to really advance, we must have sterling outings from middle of the road pitchers like lohse and piniero. what are the odds?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
I dunno if you noticed
But Pineiro hasn’t really been “middle-of-the-road” this year. He’s been more like “super-fucking-awesome.”
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Will Wallaca play for Oakland this season?
Will he play for them this week?
I say yes for both…
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
Or Wallace even
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I seriously doubt it
By all accounts he’s not yet quite ready, and the A’s have zero reason to start his arby clock right now.
Seriously, what the fucking fuck?
The fuck, man, the fuck????
This is pretty cool though:
Schumaker
Holliday
Pujols
Ludstick
Rasmus
DeRosa
Molina
Ryan
Pitcher
Derosa.
One of the best parts of this trade
Is that Joe Thurston will be starting a LOT less. Ditto Ankiel. I feel much better with those guys on the bench.
I'm not saying he's all better now, but ...
over the last week Ankiel has looked like a baseball player again. .286/.286/.571/.857
If he breaks out of his funk, that could be quite a boon to the team.
Me likey
Who did we trade? Wet Brallace? Never heard of him.
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Two of my favorite things together.
Wet and Braless.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
haha
rec
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Most walruses (walri?) are wet and braless.
I say ‘most’ because there’s no such thing as a sure thing.
by notmorganfreeman on Jul 24, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Walrus is plural, as well.
Much like ‘Moose.’
by mynameistyler on Jul 24, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not sure what will happen to the roster
If Glaus and K Greene come back. It will be a deep bench though
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Colby to Memphis?
I FLAG’D myself
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Still
For a team that PH A LOT. He would be a nice bat off the bench.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, ...
I’m not bad-mouthing that. Sorry, if I sounded like that worsened the bench depth. I was more answering your question about what to do with the roster.
Naw I didn't take it as bad mouthing
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Glaus
Will he be able to be traded by the deadline? Because, we should really try to move him to the AL where he can DH.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
deadline is in a week
doubt it
maybe if he hits we can try and move him on waivers. tricky, thoguh
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Not really
He makes a lot of moeny and is injured
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Career w/RISP (row1) and Men on (row2)
OPS
Apu 1.159
1.082
Hol 0.982
0.929
Lud 0.925
0.879
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
We had to include Mortenson AND Peterson too?
I don’t know how a guy could be so bad at his job- he should get fired immediately for this.
Derosa.
My thoughts exactly, think about what the A's traded for a full year of Holliday to being with
MO comes of looking like an IDIOT to me.
Willing to bet he is more intelligent than you, and knows more about baseball
but please, let your overflowing anger out.
Well it's kinda hard
When you GM makes a trade that EVERYONE knows is bad, likely to appease La Russa.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually it's not hard at all
it’s called perspective and not whining like a 12 year old whose mommy took away his toy.
well you're
is certainly more helpful
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
your
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Your comment isn't even a logical argument, its just baiting.
VEP has put a lot more time and effort into his opinions than mostly anyone on VEB, and his opinion is certainly well constructed when it comes to roster management and payroll decisions.
In no way was he whiny, he simply stated his view on the trade and the ramifications that should come of it. Your comment above is much more inflammatory.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
you're totally right
constantly saying “fuck” and bashing the GM is very informative. get off his jock, junior.
Did I accidentally sign on to the P-D forums?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
So... perspective on what?
What exactly does this deal bring us? A slight improvement in our playoff odds and a sexy name to put in commercials? I fail to see any reason for this trade.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
the key to winning an election
is getting votes from the less informed. Moz just locked up a victory by making the majority happy with promises of hope. it doesn’t matter if he has put the future in jeopardy.
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
OK
children. enough of the name calling. You may disagree with the trade. Me too. but to say he is an idiot is ignorant. You do not know the man. you do not know his thought process. you do not know their opinion of wallace defensive prospects. you don’t get that job for being an idiot.
I don't know Hitler,
but that doesn’t mean I can’t judge his decisions.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
are we really...
comparing this trade to the holocaust?
That was quite a logical jump you made there
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
on my part?
but not a logical jump to go from comparing Mo’s poor decisions to Hitler’s?
He wasn't comparing Mo's decisions to Hitler's...
He’s simply saying you don’t have to personally know someone to identify a poor decision on their part.
V, b.
You're arguing from ignorance,
I’m just pointing out why it’s a fallacy.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
my point
I wasn’t arguing anything. my point was only that we are all relatively ignorant when compared to the amount of knowledge that must have gone into this decision. Thus, calling mo an ‘idiot’ is ridiculous. It is a judgement call, which may effect the future of the cardinals franchise. However, it does so in a way that does not result in the death of millions.
Relax people. I don’t like the trade either. I just think we are overreacting a bit here and becoming rather childish.
Hitler was an evil genius
so isn’t he more like Billy Beane?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
Hey, all the speculation about whether Wallace could actually play third base, whether Mortenson was the answer to the 5th starter question and whether the Cardinals can hack up enough money to make this more than a two month deal will all go straight out the window the first time this guy steps into the on deck circle with Albert at the plate. All the rest is gravy. The question to ask is not whether Cardinal fans are are pro or con here, but whether Cubs, Brewer and Astro fans like it. They are all headed to the bathroom before they mess their shorts and they are all looking at some serious time off in mid September.
Bravo Mo – you have the makings of a good one.
Matt's big holiday in St. Louis
Will shape up like this:
CLICK FOR LARGER
and if the live Google Document is not failing for you, here it is.
Dark green is a team well over .500, light green is a team on the borderline, or one game over. Bold is a home game for that team. Italics is within the division. No, I couldn’t bother to fill in the Reds and Pirates.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
oh no, now I've gone crosseyed
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jul 24, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
it's the schedule
Each opposing team’s winning percentage. So on the 24th of July 2009, the Cardinals meet a team that is not in our division (not italic) and not at Busch (not bold) with a winning percentage of .580. That’d be the Phillies.
Click for larger?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
in other words, we have a soft schedule for part of August and that's IT, folks.
September will be grueling for everyone, so there’s that. Those italics across the board mean the division’s all playing each other, which bodes ill for my liquor supplies… if no one has a clear lead by September 1st, whomever fades down the stretch even a little will not be making the playoffs.
The good news is the Cubs have a nonstop marathon of make-or-break games in September, plus the Giants who might still be in the running for the Wild Card. If they stumble there, there’s no going back.
The bad news is, the Brewers’ tough schedule … is only tougher than ours because of the THREE series they have with the Cardinals between September 1 and the end of the season.
No September? No October.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Ok...... AND I am done
I am now onto loving Holliday for being the great player he is. What is done is done. Everything is redunant and already being talked about. All we can do now is see how the events fold out
Stat Whore
if we don't win the ws
then what?
i would like for the cards to have both holliday and albert on the payroll with current contracts, but is that really possible? if it dopes turn out to be wallace for 2 months of mh, then mo is an idiot many times over. we could get holiday in the open market in two months and give up nothing, except maybe a draft slot. sounds exciting to get him, bot overall, it is a sucky move
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
thanks for that slap back into reality, Flim
considering its now 1:13 and I haven’t done a single work-related thing yet, which means I’m going to ne staying late now on a Friday night to finish it. Come to think of it, you could argue me staying late is all that goddamn Billy Bea….I mean, its no big deal. ::back to work::
I still haven't gotten over the Haren trade, and we got fleeced again by Beane
I don’t know what Beane’s best quality as a GM, probably finding the Mos. God his plan was so obvious all along, trade Street for Holliday at the beginning of the year and dump him off to a overly desperate and stupid gm.
Did you feel fleeced in the Haren trade when it happened?
Most likely not.
You felt fleeced after the fact. Let me quote you some Kung Fu Panda
You are too concerned with what was and with what will be. Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the present.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Did I feel fleeced with the Haren trade, I barely followed baseball at that time in my life
I was on Hiatus, so I felt nothing.
That deal sucked
Because Mulder got hurt. If Mulder was the same pitcher in St. Louis that he was in Oakland we would have looked at that deal much differently.
Not 03 04 Haren
Mulder used to be the best left handed pitcher in baseball at one time
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
the issue
was that it turned out mulder was probably already hurt. the one season of supercharged jeff suppan they got out of him was probably not what jocketty anticipated.
That is my view also
My issue with the Mulder trade was the fact we got him hurt
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
right
mulder had dropped off considerably for quite a while before the trade. i t was bad from the start. you can throw marioth in as another injured person we gambled on for some reason. and k greeene was ot properly researched, etc. more cases of us getting fleeced on these guys than not. a mystery to me.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
we got maroth and greene for free more or less
(3 mediocre AAA RPs)
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 24, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
He wasn't going to be that pitcher...
…and if WJ had been paying attention he would have known that. Mulder’s velo and K rates had been falling precipitously for a few years. Hell, even in 2005 Haren outpitched Mulder. The trade was failed from the start…the injury was the coup d’grace.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I felt fleeced at that time.
But Dan Haren was then and is still my favorite player in the MLB.
by mynameistyler on Jul 24, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
yea
look what beane got for someone he could never resign. look what boston got for someone they DFA’s. mo is the baseball equivalent of a garbage can. he picks up what other won’t or can;t move. beane made out like a bandit, again.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
we had better make the playoffs
right now we are in a 4 team race for the NL central and only on pace for 86 wins. so holliday adds 2-3 wins to that? do we really think 89 games wins us the division or the wildcard. imo we still have to play our asses of just to get to the playoffs. as bad as the other four teams have been this year they are still right there with us.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
The (potential) Pujols Problem
If we re-sign Holliday, and don’t be delusional, Boras is going to want 6/100, we are potentially going to be handcuffed at the end of next year when Albert needs 10/300 for us to keep him.
If we don’t, then we have the same corner OF problem we had before today AND no one to play third, and presumably big holes at the back of the rotation. Then, we potentially have to try to sign Albert coming off a 78-win season. Probably with no TLR, too- I can’t see him sticking around after this year, he’s even more ornery than usual.
The potential solution was right there for us, but Tony is just so stubborn: Skip to LF, Derosa to 2nd, Wallace up if no Glaus.
If we were really going to bet the farm, why not trade Wallace for young pitching or even in a Halladay deal?
We’d really better get to the playoffs this year.
addiomng halladay a much widser option,, if it was was an option for the same players. with halladay, we could win the ws. with holliday, a firm 'possibly"
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
widsrtihsfck?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
blame my fingers and my recent receipt of the news
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
thoughts on the trade
- I think the Cardinals are going back to a defensive focus after a couple of shifty seasons… Brett Wallace does not fit into this, unless, perish the thought, Pujols goes elsewhere (at which point I would be twice as pissed off)
- Holliday will be a very significant upgrade over Ank
- Pujols will be more apt to stay if Holliday is on the team, and vice versa
- we just gave up a lot for Holliday, he better not be a dud
- MV4: Pujols, Holliday, Ludwick, Derosa
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:20 PM EDT reply actions
what is rick-dick's role now?
seeme to me he just got his bus ticket
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
he should be the back up outfielder
especially since he can play all three spots
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
or maybe they'll trade him for another lugo
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
THAT'S NOT FUNNY!
ok, maybe a little.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Ok now, come on. Derosa?
I like the guy but I don’t think I’d put him in that equation.
he's already hit 3 home runs for us
and was better than Ludwick last year
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
if you go by wOBA
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
or just replace DeRo with Yadi if that works for ya
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Note...
…as of right now, VEB is on pace for the ballpark of 2000 posts on the two main threads for the day. I would call that an internet explosion.
Maybe this is VEB’s attempt to take down the whole damn internet, a la the wake of Michael Jackson’s death. That literally almost tore apart the internet. No, seriously….
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions
How many do you guys average a day?
That is something I have always wondered and tried to track down
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a sitemeter link on the bottom
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Good lord...
…I’m literally in awe. Well, as much in awe as I can be of a bunch of middle-aged men in their sweaty boxers rushing to the computers in their mom’s basements…or something.
I say this as I type on a two-year old Dell surrounded by concrete walls and sitting beneath floor joists in a wife-beater and an old pair of sham-rocked boxers. I’ve not bathed in two days and…
Okay none of this is true.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
yup
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
im over the initial shock
I was really pissed off at first but then I reminded myself that its all about winning the world series. Any year your team doesn’t win the WS is ultimately a failure. Holliday dramatically improves the team’s chances to not only win the division but be a legitimate post season force this year. He is an all around solid player with good power. Certainly better than those who have had his spot in the lineup so far this year. If they can afford him on a new contract, good. If they gain supplemental picks after he turns down arbitration, good. Either way they have made a case to Albert (and Tony for that matter) that they are serious about winning titles. With the expiring contracts after 2009, they remain versitile and may be able to sign Matt long term and have enough coin left for AP. If not, the prospects could be replaced in the supplemental picks they get when Matt leaves. It doesn’t seem to me like the franchise really envisioned Wallace as a legitimate 3b or LF. Mortenson may hurt some day but I don’t percieve a huge gap between his potential and the potential of Boggs, Garcia, or Hawksworth. With Carp, Wainer, and Lohse signed long term, someone had to go. Finally, if I’m not mistaken there was some concern over being able to protect some important guys from the rule 5 draft, so trading some prospects for a difference maker (hopefully) like Holliday aleviates that scenario. Is this a gamble? Yes. But I think they ultimately neede to gamble on someone if they were going to give themselves a chance this year. I’d rather have Halladay but that was probably never a possibility. My sig has always been my mantra for the cardinals so I have to stick to it.
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 24, 2009 2:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The brother of the "great" Angel Hernandez is my next door neighbor...
And he goes outside to talk on his phone, and he is LOUD. AS. SHIT. I have never in my life heard someone talk so loud on the phone. I’m sitting in my bedroom and I can hear every single one of his words. It’s completely ridiculous. I hope he never answers that thing in a restaurant…
V, b.
an open memo to John Mozeliak
Dear John,
1. Please stop channeling Walt Jocketty and Tony La Russa. We want to see a strong, highly competitive ballclub that can compete seriously for the world series every year, and we are willing to be patient to get that. We are not happy that you sacrificed the promise of several years of a top-quality club for a modest improvement in our chances to win the world series this year.
2. Nonetheless, we are excited to have Matt Holliday wear the birds on the bat, and we look forward to watching him and the rest of the Cardinals play for the rest of the year.
Yours truly,
The well informed fans
Rough trade
Beane probably raped the Cards again.
From a baseball standpoint, the deal may be OK. Holliday can help the Cardinals now, and arguably he was the best hitter available if you read the internet. Mo isn’t the kind of GM that will be able to create trades for hitters that aren’t on the market according to Buster Olney.
From a money standpoint, this is a disaster. Prospects for a severely overpaid outfielder that will be owed a ton in arbitration.
A world Series title really is all that could justify this in the long term, and this move doesn’t help them all that much to that pipe dream.
On the other hand, I think the Cards have a fighting chance to avoid finishing 4th in the Central this year!
Countdown to when Mo schedules his next JSL!!! chat, where he can
enjoy credit for sigining Holliday and DeRosa and trading Duncan.
10 . . . 9 . . . 8 . . . .
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Who ya got? Walrus 2009 A's stats vs. Holliday 2009 Cards stats?
Wallace may well finish the season with better numbers for the A’s this year than Holliday with the Cards.
He’s pretty much ready to hit at the big league level, and there’s no reason he doesn’t start right away for the A’s.
arb clock is a good reason, no?
From the way I understand it he wont be free until September. Shouldn’t burn that time for a month on a non-contender, no?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
my gut reaction is this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT8sl9ZyICE
but a prospect is a prospect and we’ll see what happens…btu for 2 months it seems liek alot..if they win the WS no one will complain, but if they dont even make playoffs…wow
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
i couldnt find just the clip of mr horse
saying his phrase
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
Winning the WS in a given year is so luck dependant, how can you justify this move
This trade elevates the Cards to the other playoff contenders at best, it’s not like we’ve greatly surpassed anyone. So it’s not like our chances are good now. You don’t become a successful organization by building up and betting it all one year. You either consistently develop a bunch of good young players so you can compete year after year, or you spend a lot of money. Since the Cards can’t do the latter we’re really rolling the dice on this one.
To give us a shot at the playoffs
That’s all.
Now they can actually field a lineup of major league quality hitters.
by olddomination on Jul 24, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
We had a great shot at the playoffs to begin w/
Boy did that Houston series send everyone into a panic.
We already had a shot at the playoffs
Actually, we were the division favorites. The ammount that Holliday improves the odds of us making the playoffs is no where near Wallace’s worth.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
not quite
We’re still clearly below the Phillies and Dodgers in the NL, plus several teams in the AL. So all this really does is make us the best team in the NL central. If it elevated us to the status of world series favorite then I’d be OK with it, but it doesn’t do that. Sacrificing the future just to get into the playoffs is a really bad idea.
I'd say we're ahead of the Phillies now
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess we'll find out, huh!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I disagree
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
we are not sacrificing our future
Wallace was not the future in St. Louis. He was not our future third-base man. He was not our future left fielder. And I really hope he wasn’t our future first-base man. The guy can mash. There is no denying that. He will hit at the Major League level. But I don’t think the FO seen him fitting in with the Cardinals. We may have given up a little to much for Holliday but I don’t think this will make the Cardinals a non contender in years to come. Even if Wallace was a major player in the FO’s future plan I trust that we will have many prospects lining up behind Wallace.
Do you feel the brewers should have Kept Matt LaPorta instead of trading for CC because they didn’t win the world Series?
If we get into the playoffs I’ll take our chances with Carpenter, Wainwright, and Pineiro/Lohse.
PS. Mo; sign Shelby Miller.
of course
they should’ve kept la porta. it’s even more obvious since fielder will be gone soon
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Even though I hate the trade
Bet your ass when you see me in Philly this weekend I’ll have “Holliday” taped on my back. Let’s fucking smoke em while we got em.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 24, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Better hurry up and smoke 'em, then.
Because they won’t be around next April.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Irony
IF Holliday statistically explodes at the plate and helps Cards win World Series, THEN Boras nets him 9 figure deal in the offseason.
OR
IF Holliday performs in line with 2009 statistics and Cardinals win World Series, THEN Holliday and Lohse tell Boras to “get Matt signed by STL”.
OR
IF Holliday and Cards fall short of winning WS and or deep into playoffs, THEN Holliday’s value drops to an appropriate level for the Cardinals to resign him.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
Option E
go back in time and stop Beane from ever becoming a GM. taking a GM job with a team besides the Cardinals.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
does beane
become moneyball with a 100M payroll?
I don't want to resign Holliday
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
seriously, if we really want to offer a monster contract to an OFer we can always give it to Ludwick.
but Ludwick isn’t proven.
+1
Everyone says deal is a buster only if we sign Holliday. But signing Holliday is seperate from this deal
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
the holliday-boras-ankiel love triangle should be fun
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Mo Must Feel As Though...
he can’t do anything right. He ditches Duncan and La Russa pitches a hissy fit. He brings in a highly respected hitter and the fans pitch a hissy fit.
I wouldn't mistake "the fans"...
for those who comment here. Nothing against VEBers, but I’d venture that most fans don’t give two shits about Brett Wallace and want to see the playoffs this October.
agree
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
so what does VEB consist of?
im a fan and i care about brett wallace, but not like some..Im not that into minors stuff but since I have been coming here have gotten more into it…still nto crazy about all the deep stats but hey
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
Can I give two shits about Wett Brallace AND want to see the playoffs this October?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Bra lace...what were we talking about again?
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
no you have to choose
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
job security
what %tage of this trade comes from Mo not wanting to be a lame duck GM 2 years in a row? i think more than i would like :(
gotta bolt because this thread is making my computer crash
this trade is a tough pill to swallow, but I am not too pissed off about it.
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:56 PM EDT reply actions
yes
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i mean
i have nothing to back this up except the fact that he’s only two hours away and la russa’s quote, “if he’s here, he’s playing”
i don’t see how he can’t make it to philly in the next four hours if he’s not already there
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
already done
that’s why this happened around noon instead of 9 or 10 am
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Yahoo said
it has not happened, and if it does it will have to happen in Philadelphia.
i dunno
that’s what bernie was reporting. the deal was only waiting on the physicals. maybe i misread
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Foreshadowing Like a Fox
Mo has proven to be pretty cagey. He was ripped for not making moves during the winter. Now, he gets something for Duncan, he pulls the trigger on a prospect for a proven player, and in a final act of brilliance, he posts a VEB picture forecasting his next move; Holiday is catching a fly ball in the face of our next target … trade Ank, Glaus and the remainder of Memphis for Michael Young. Now we are talkin!
SD
more like
"A slick way to out-figure a person is to get him figuring you figure he's figuring you're figuring he'll figure you aren't really figuring what you want him to figure you figure." ~ Whitey Herzog
DeWitt's accountant just called the Geithner
to see if we can get bailed out of Michael Young’s contract.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Wallace, etc
Not sure I understand the hatred over this trade. There could have been slightly better options (Dunn for less), but it’s hard to say that this trade doesn’t dramatically improve the team.
And it’s not as if the jury wasn’t still out on Wallace. We’re already aware of his fielding abilities, or lack thereof, and it isn’t as if he has completely raked AAA pitching. I’m sure he has the ability to be a good player, but that might not have been at 3rd base. And if not there, the only option would be 1st. I think we have that spot covered (hopefully), for a good long while. In fact, I think trades like this make it all that more likely that Pujols is here to stay.
This trade does dramatically improve this team
And it does significantly improve our odds of making the playoffs. However, as we discovered in the thread this morning, that improvement will likely not end up coming close to matching the value that Wallace + the two prospects give us.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe
just maybe, we can get lucky in the draft again. worked the last two years with our first picks
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
thats why they play the games
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
Yes, because a GM has perfect foresight into exactly what will happen
You can only evaluate deals based on the most likely outcome. And in this case, it’s likely we got owned on this deal.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
To be clear, I'm excited to have Holliday to make a playoff run
I also feel this was a very knee-jerk move, when there were other options that would have been better.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you know?
We weren’t at the table with the Nats or whomever else.
Please stop.
Simple math shows that Holliday is worth less than $15M to us while Wallace plus Mort and Shane2 is $30M.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
yeah
you’re not contributing anything
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
And you are, because you're already so convinced
Glad you speak for everyone as well. I’m going to back off you, because you seem a little foamy around the mouth….
i am
because i’m taking the argument that people are presenting and using it, not turning it into something that’s easy refute
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Really?
So the thread is all knowing? They’re prospects, hard to say vs. a proven all-star.
Prospects, that have a combined 18 cost controlled years vs. 2 months of a proven all-star
Hmmm…
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't know you worked in the front office?
I think it remains to be seen on a couple of fronts:
1) None of us know what will happen/may have already happened on the re-signing front;
2) If it gets a world series, would you take that?
right
you have to be a FO employee to form an educated opinion
your anti-intellectualism is something be admired surely
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Intellectualism?
No need to get personal. I didn’t see you answer the question(s) though?
well
i don’t see how it’s personal. i disagree with the fact that you need to work for the cardinals to have a valid opinion
let’s say holliday gives us 3 WAR the rest of the year (very generous)
wallace would need to average <.5WAR/yr during his cost controlled years and the other two would need to be worth 0 or less to not be more valuable than holliday. don’t see that being the case. wallace will be good
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You heard it here
“Wallace will be good”. Well, that changes everything, I now see your point.
if there's no way to know
why do the cards pay so much money for prospecting, scouting and drafting?
we don’t know anything, but you can’t be dumb enough to think there is absolutely no level of predictability here
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
you might've lost 'em at "WAR"
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
It's not science
You can’t be dumb enough to think that it isn’t highly subjective, with a high degree of randomness.
sure
but it’s objective enough to know with quite enough certainty that wallace’s MiLB numbers translate to being better than aaron miles
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Is 15 more or less than 30?
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
Garbage in garbage out
I think you should send your resume to the FO.
Knock it off
This is getting silly.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I love reading bullshit like this
If anyone criticizes the management they’re always told to “send their resume to the front office!” Just to be clear — it’s ok to criticize management here just as it’s ok to continuously apologize for it.
And Holliday doesn't ad 100% of that
He adds about 15%
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Sort of.
There is a time value of WAR just like there is a time value of money. 0.5 WAR from Wallace 6 years in the future is worth less than 0.5 WAR this season.
Still, MO is attaching a mighty big discount rate to Wallace’s contributions and giving considerable value to Holliday for this to make sense. It pretty obviously doesn’t.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
You're right
“Sort of”. In other words, you don’t place your entire decision making apparatus on it and other statistical analysis.
Glad you mentioned time value of money. I work in the investment field, and everyone has a model. Most them are crap, and the ones that work maybe do so half of the time.
The best investors and traders in the world employ a certain amount of feel. You think Warren Buffet only looks at the financial ratios of the companies he buys and never say interviews the management, or looks at what their competitors are planning?
The statistical bible crowd has become almost religious in it’s adherence.
How else do you make a decision on trade?
Flip a coin?
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
intuition
i believe is his argument
i don’t see any of us reasoning with him. knock youself out, but i’m gonna save myself the frustration
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Said who?
It’s not the only thing I would use. But it’s good to know that your statistical analysis already has it all figured out.
How else would you judge the trade?
Serious question.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't entirely yet
Why do you? Particularly with so many unknowns. I do know it makes the club more competitive right now. Not true?
Name one person who argues that point
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
On this blog?
Probably no one. But that of course means it must be wrong?
he's saying nobody's arguing against the point you made,
that it makes the club more competitive right now. I’ve said that in the last two blog entries.
The point being argued is whether or not that gain in this season is worth the probably negatives this trade causes in the long term.
I see
And no, I think those are good arguments (but not the only ones), but a little early to say with any certainty. Which I’m sure you probably agree with?
The point is that
based on the information we have, the trade appears to be so lopsided that any other info that we don’t have couldn’t possibly make it a good trade.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
not with total certainty
but trades can be judged on the information at hand to some degree—if they couldn’t, no team would make them.
The information most people are looking at here, namely Wallace’s cheap and almost certainly effective bat and Holliday’s imminent expensiveness, makes it a tough deal to defend over the course of Wallace’s team control. From there you have to decide what the additional odds Holliday gives you in these playoffs are worth to you and this team.
Nobody’s denying that finally you have to play the games to know, but there are legitimate conclusions to be made from what we know now, too.
Yes
Of course, we also “know” based on the information that we have that it is likely an awful move for the future.
The only way you can evaluate things is based off of the information available.
And personally, there is not one hidden thing that could make this a good trade.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, that strawman is dumb, huh?!
we don’t know anything
this has been my stance all along
come back to me when you can use my argument against me
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Not really
I would consider a couple of things:
1) How much value does Holliday provide for us?
2) How much value do the 3 prospects provide for us?
1 includes things like how much he improves our chances of making the playoffs, the value of the draft picks, additional revenue for acquring an allstar.
2 is based off of regression analysis of previous prospects. It includes the odds that they will buts, or that they will be an allstar, assigns a value to those options and weighs them properly.
Combinining that, will essentially cover almost all factors in play. Believe it or not, we actually did that in the other thread this morning and found that the trade was lopsided in the A’s favor.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
but, VEP, don't forget, these are just PROSPECTS.
they’re not real baseball players.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Thank god they didn't have their way with Rasmus
Wallace does not = Rasmus, but the willingness people have to throw away these guys amazes me. What amazes me even more is that a 10-25 week to start their big league career would change many of these people’s minds completely.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 24, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, your at the table, then huh?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
right
and i was making fun of your point. sorry if that was ambiguous. i’ll dumb it down so you can troll it easier next time
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I work in finance as well.
If anyone checked under the hood of our prop desk’s trading algorithm, heads would explode. There are traders that move on gut or whatever else on their own account, but the firm’s money (and Buffet’s too) is only deployed after the most rigorous of available tests.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
I would say
Buffet’s especially. It’s pretty well known that he checks THOROUGHLY into fundementals
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
That's right
And ONLY fundamentals I’m sure…..Bet he never interviews management for instance, right? Sorry, I can’t believe you guys throw all of your faith in statistical models. Sounds like zealotry….
Don't be ridiculous.
No one is saying to buy a stock on a large scale without visiting the company or doing diligence or any of that. Just like we aren’t saying to sign prospects without seeing them play or evaluating their talent outside of the box score.
This all started because we don’t think you have to be FO to judge decisions. Sorry that I do not put 100% faith in MO and TLR.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
i smell a troll
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You mean someone that doesn't agree with you?
You seem to be rather self-righteous about this. Having all the answers and all.
I’m saying it’s a tad too early to know.
yep i have all the answers
that’s what i mean by
we don’t know anything
you got me
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I should save this as much as I use it:
I think what "these guys" and I are saying is that given the facts at hand, there is no logical explanation for the [trade being advantageous to the Cardinals].
We are not completely ignoring the possibility that there is some influence or other facts we are not privy to that has impacted [this value]; we are merely opining that the likelihood of such information existing and existing in such a way to warrant the move is zero or approaching zero.
Judging the situation by considering all the facts at hand and then attempting to quantify the likelihood of unknown material information is the only way to judge any scenario. Otherwise any decision made by anyone in authority with access to insider information (TLR, MO, Obama, my mother, etc.) could be written off by saying, "Well, he/she must have some reason for doing this!", granting virtual infallibility. Knowing my mother (and TLR), infallibility is simply not the case.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 24, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who said that?
I’m guessing it was in the Tony’s crappy roster management thread
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yours truly
and yes
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Traders?
Most of the best ones in the world would laugh at that statement. Sorry.
The best traders in the world sit in front of a bloomberg terminal
with access to sophisticated models and information at their fingertips. This isn’t 1960 where you call your buddies for some inside info. Its 2009 and information flow is extremely efficient – finding value is more difficult than ever before.
Does that mean that relationships, insight, and experience aren’t important? For fuck sake, no. But don’t tell us that traders make important decisions based on less than the best info available – and if they do they are on the way out.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
Didn't say that
They just don’t really ONLY on the models, information flow, etc.
and no one said
that we should rely ONLY on statistics. stop whining about your point of view being misrepresented only to turn around and do the exact same thing
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
None of us know what will happen/may have already happened on the re-signing front;
Signing Holliday past this year is independent of trading for him. I garauntee you Boras isn’t going to give us a discount.
If it gets a world series, would you take that?
Well, I guess that would be fine. Then again, nobody can possibly know that he will actually give us a world series. In fact, I’ve actually looked into this, and Hollday doesn’t actually improve our odds that much!
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
some people need visual information, I guess...
This is what “signing past this year is independent of trading for him” can look like.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Yea I know
There’s only 1 example, and it’s always bad. Right?
Signings like this never re-sign….
That last part was a joke, right?
“In fact, I’ve actually looked into this, and Hollday doesn’t actually improve our odds that much!” I think you were kidding? If not, were can I “look this up”.
And as to the signing past this year, the amount of cash we got is undetermined at this point, as is what may already be going on behind the scenes.
why are you so condescending
most of us are trying to have a decent discussion with you
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Honestly Dude
I think if you go back, you’ll note that that’s been you. It’s a baseball game, not life or death. You’re a little weird, and I’m going to check out now. Yea, that last part was finally condescending.
sweet
i hope you have more will power than me because i can’t resist
and i’m not being condescending. look up the definition. first i was being pretty reasonable. now i’m being an asshole. there;s a difference
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Really
I think you started in pretty early on with the lack of ‘intellectualism’ and ‘reading comprehension’. I’d better look up the definition of ‘condescending’ however to make sure that’s what that was.
I’m out, you’ve become tiresome and too easy a target.
well
anti-intellectualism is the best word i could use to describe it. that’s doesn’t mean you’re stupid, it means you have no pursuit of knowledge and actually discourage such pursuits. seems like what you’re doing with all this “you’re not at the table” bullshit. you’re just stifling debate
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Try any of his various blogs
drivelinemechanics
Beyond the Boxscore
He write for sabremetric blogs… He knows what he’s talking about. You don’t
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Maybe that's the problem
I suppose if it was my job, I would evangelise the gospel as well.
Now that you’ve told me that “I don’t know anything”, I’m getting very self conscious…
i highly doubt he gets paid
he seems like a hobbyist from what i’ve seen of him
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Nobody is saying it's gospel
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody is saying it's gospel
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If it's the only argument
Then yes, I would say it’s being delivered that way.
offset by 12 years of the draft picks
need to count them if Shane is worth 6 cost controlled mlb years.
That's somewhat disingenious...
these two months are extremely “high leverage” games. There’s no difference between acquiring a guy for 162 games (as the A’s did with Holliday) because you think you have a good shot to win the division, and acquiring a guy for 54 games because you think have a good shot to win the division.
If there were10 games to go in the season and we needed a bat in order to go 7-3 and win the division, it would still make sense to trade the farm for short term gain, if we thought that’s what it took.
i dont think the combined cost-controlled number is all that interesting
because they are cost controlled at the same time and being that there are 25 roster spots they’re value is not what being cost controlled for 18years would be.
Plus at what point in the cost control is their most value to us...
if it is in the last year of cost control for example then they get a lot more expensive the next year.
are you serious? "proven all stars" crap out all the time. let's run out a list
of proven cardinal all stars. here goes:
jason isringhausen
david eckstein
scott rolen
jim edmonds
mark mulder
chris carpenter
do you start to see a trend here?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Proven all-stars
That’s right, you should never trade for one. Lord knows Rolen, Edmonds, Carpenter, Isringhausen, and Eckstein brought little value to this club. A couple of world series appearances, a ring, and a host of playoff appearances.
Unless of course you’re being ironic? If so, I get the joke.
not what he was saying
reading comprehension ftw!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Reading comprehension on who's part?
Last time I checked, non-all-stars crap out all the time too (probably at a higher rate). I guess you’d rather not have their production around though? Better think constantly plan for next year.
FYI – None of Beane’s teams have even made it to a World Series….the ultimate prospect aggregator.
anybody has the possibility of crapping. that’s not what you took issue with
That’s right, you should never trade for one.
it’s really hard to argue with someone who is constantly changing their stance and contorting other peoples’ opinions
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
it's a don ayler reference
i don’t expect you to know that i don’t expect you to know that i don’t consider myself a prophet and my name isn’t john
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
no one doubted
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
the implication is that the list are proven all-stars that have crapped out.
I guess you need to define crapped out…if you mean get old and lose their prime then izzy, edmonds, fit that bill..rolen maybe too…but injury and TLR messed him up….Mulder I think is only one that “crapped out” in the sense that he was all-star and still in seeming prime performed way under his peak.
Carp..got injured but I still think even in light of that Im glad we had signed him and he still has not “crapped out”
Eck was an all-star because he over-performed and dropped back to his norm
I guess my avatar now...
is unloyal for the Cards… This trade, to me, only works if we are able to re-sign DeRo and Holliday next year, along with APu in the foreseeable future. Which is unlikely, to say the least.
Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!
*No. 1 supporter of The Walrus*
I like the idea of resigning DeRosa because he's only and the contract won't be that many years
But with Pujols’ future with the team still in limbo, I can’t really say I’m comfortable with paying Holliday.
derosa
he’s pretty much a must have now. having question marks at 2nd, 3rd, SS, and backup OF make him very valuable imo.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
My previoud idea for '10
was to re-sign DeRo for around 8M to play LF, re-sign Pineiro for an estimated 9M. bring Wallace up to be our 3B (saving millions there) and bring an in-house SP to be the #5 guy. This frees up some salary with the departure of Glaus to sign Pujols. And I am quoting Charlir Harper: “But I guess that ship has sailed”
Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!
*No. 1 supporter of The Walrus*
If Holliday plays tonight...
It will probably mean both new Cardinals in the lineup. I imagine Lugo will start at 2nd against the lefty…
V, b.
that was all part of the plan
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 24, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The asking price for Roy Halladay is outrageous...
The latest on MLBTR says this:
2:04pm: MLB.com’s Ken Gurnick passes on comments Dodgers GM Ned Colletti made this morning on KABC Radio. Colletti says the Jays want two or three current Dodgers, including a young pitcher, or five or six prospects.
Five or six prospects? Jesus Christ…
V, b.
Man
That’s like trading a top 25 prospect and a top organizational pitching prospect for only two months of Matt Holliday…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Until Holliday plays tonight... yes
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
we will need a priest in here if he goes 0 for 4
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
Hold on...
Let me kick it again and see.
Why would we trade Brett Wallace, Clayton Mortensen (the pitcher in the org who best fits Dave Duncan’s philosophy), and an OFer for a mere 2 months of Matt Holliday?
It whinnied. Still alive. Ladie and gentlemen, kick away!
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
So to be clear...
You would rather deal SIX good prospects for an extra year of Roy Halladay? Neither deal is very good, but that one is A LOT worse in my mind…
V, b.
No
he’d rather not do either, and has said so for going on 4 weeks now.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
As fourstick said,
I wouldn’t do either. I think they are both poor decisions.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Mort doesn't fit Dave Duncan's philosophy
he’s not a washed up or misguided veteren in need of a sinker and gameplan
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
It's like the cow in Me, Myself and Irene
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
my favorite Jim Carrey movie
(how the heck do you spell his last name?)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
Who would possibly do that?
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
as long as it's not the Brewers...
Is this like trading Albert for the Orioles?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Reminds me of the Hershel Walker trade a bit
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It sounds like they want:
Kershaw and Hu plus another 2 or 3 C prospects. No way am I doing that if I’m the Dodgers. Kershaw might be worth 4 WAR next season if he continues to pitch the he’s been lately.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I'm not sure why the Dodgers want Halladay
They are already a lock for the playoffs
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
it's funny how...
whenever big news hit, I just move into VEB and do nothing else.
there’s are hundreds of us staring at this thread updating itself and trying to find every positive Matt Holliday stat we can. love it.
I blame HL.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
According to Baseball Reference
Matt Holliday is able to grow mustaches!
Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!
*No. 1 supporter of The Walrus*
huzzah!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I just got an email from stlcardinals.com
It’s a “News Alert” telling me that the “Cardinals trade for Matt Holliday.” At least they didn’t call it “breaking news.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I found this interesting
Lest we forget, Beane traded away Dan Haren for, yes, of course, more prospects. Check out a couple of the names in that trade…they should look familiar after today.
No no...
I was kidding. We don’t refer to Dan Haren by name around here because of the great pain it causes. I see you’re new, though…
V, b.
what we all need
is a column of taught prose from Mr lboros.
taut?
+10000000
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
For sure
Where is LB on this anyway?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He commented on it in my Fanpost
but I haven’t seen him in here. Possibly avoiding all the craziness in the main threads today.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
On the plus side with Holliday and Ludwick hitting behind Pujols he will get a fair shot at a Triple Crown
Also we need an overflow thread it took me 8 minutes to post.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
He'd have a better shot if a high-OBP guy hit in front of him
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
No, actually
I’m in favor of Rasmus hitting lower in the order, between Pujols-Holliday-Ludwick and Molina. His OBP isn’t high enough. Plus, we can use his speed and let him run a bit more, perhaps leveraging our singles hitters into RBI men more often.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
hmm.
Really the only other high OBP would be Yadi or DeRosa. Maybe Thruston. Are you suggesting we put Holiday in-front of Pujols? His .378 puts him second on this team. Wow. I didn’t realize that.
I would love Holliday second, frankly
But, DeRosa there is perfectly acceptable.
If we do the “double leadoff man,” a lineup I agree with wholeheartedly, and batter Holliday second, it would be awesome. If I were the manager, that’s probably what I would do. Something like this:
1) Skippy
2) Holliday
3) Pujols
4) Ludwick
5) Rasmus
6) DeRosa (This is simply to break up the handedness of the batters. I’d be fine with swapping Rasmus & DeRosa.)
7) Yadier
8) Pitcher
9) Ryan
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
why not swap them? ludwick KILLED last year in the 2 slot.
skippy/luddy/pujols/holliday/razzle/derosa/molina
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Holliday will be in the lineup tonight...
wearing number 15
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 3:49 PM EDT reply actions
Funny
We retired Dizzy Dean’s after he went to the Cubs.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I wasn't in the least bit serious...
But regardless, I’m pretty sure free agency was nothing but a glimmer in the eye of Curt Flood’s father at that point…
V, b.
I agree
That move stings. I may have to wear my Edmonds shirt for the weekend.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
agreed
Edmonds is dead to me for at least another year.
by RedbirdAvenger on Jul 24, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
never... i was within 30 feet away from him when he saved game 7 in the 2004 NLCS
with a diving catch towards the wall
Don't forget Game 6, either.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Either is unacceptable.
Both 51 and 15 should be off limits for at least the next 20 years.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd, but fixed
Both 51 and 15 should be off limits. for at least the next 20 years.
On that same note, no one has wore 51 or 25 yet, have they….
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
No they haven't. Yet.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
Yikes! The horror....how could they.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
When you wear some version of 5
this club is full of landmines, 5 is out forever, 15, 25, 35 (taken), 45, 51, 55 (taken), hell even 85 is retired (oh, and he wore 24 in high school, also taken for now). I’m not going to hold it against him.
by Rep the High Socks on Jul 24, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll personally accept all the boos on his behalf if he wears 51
Jim Edmonds was less cuddly but he was a better player. Plus he played in my childhood, so I am doomed to fight this for the rest of my life.
I was personally rooting for 25
just for the double-take factor, but I know that’s probably not a popular position to take.
by Rep the High Socks on Jul 24, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The real question is
what number will Hal McRae be sporting tonight now that he’s yielded 15 to Holliday!?
by Rep the High Socks on Jul 24, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
top of this post
In green.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
one good thing...
Holliday will have a chance to make an immediate impression in Citizens Bank Launching Pad…er Park
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions
Lineup tonight via FSMW tweet:
Lugo 2B
DeRosa 3B
Pujols 1B
Holliday LF
Ludwick RF
Molina C
Ankiel CF
Ryan SS
Pineiro P
....my quick smells like french toast...
Here's what happens tonight:
Kwanzaa (well, someone had to start attempting to come up with a nickname for Holliday now that he’s a Redbird) hits 4 homers, robs Ryan Howard of 2 homeruns, and pitches a scoreless 9th for the save. Albert vows to play in St. Louis for the league minimum if we resign him after this season.
I like his chances.
that's already...
Halladay’s nickname.
by RedbirdAvenger on Jul 24, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Peter Gammons is on 101.1 ESPN
He is making it sound like Holliday is going to love the fact he is playing here. Who ever the host is the though is a complete idiot. He was talking about Holliday was a bad defensive player.
Stat Whore
he has that rep among a certain set for some reason
I never understood it—it seems like high average, medium power guys with average speed are usually overrated on defense, doesn’t it?
I heard that interview too
Gammons was real high on the deal, even threw out the term “home town discount” when talking about a possible Holliday resigning. If nothing else it’s nice to hear Holliday is seen as a quality guy, two solid clubhouse additions with him and Derosa
by Rep the High Socks on Jul 24, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
So, like
if you are in this thread you don’t realize how massive it is to load.
We need an overflow.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 4:21 PM EDT reply actions
It's not it loading now
it’s trying to get it load from the outside coming in.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
FF 3.5 maybe?
I don’t have any problems with it but hard to judge when I’m sitting on a T3.
when will holiday be sporting the birds on the bat?
sorry is this has already been discussed … long thread today
6pm central
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Ok This is some of the worst analysis iv ever read.
So many people hate this deal. Some valid points but.
First of all we need to address all of the assumptions that bc we dealt with bill bean this is a bad trade. Why? Because Mark Mulder got injured? Ok…out of those big there (Hudson/mulder/zito) Mulder was the most consistent when healthy and by most accounts had the most upside. Furthermore there have been a number of great players to come out of that organization. Mark McGuire anyone remember that guy.
Another point I hate. Because Skip isn’t a great second baseman we should run Wallace, another shity infielder out there. OK yes lets just fuck the defensive aspect. There is a reason they call it the "hot corner." Having a below average second baseman is not the same thing as having a below average guy at third….ill take my chances at second please.
Finally, I think the main point of today’s point is that all things being equal what do we get/give up. Well we get a proven MAJOIR LEAGUE player. We resolve all doubts about winning our division. AND (barring the roy h. trade…I think we are the second best team in the NL. Last time I checked going to the WS is what we are shooting for. At the beginning of the season I would have been against this trade but a lot of weakness have been exposed…especially in our division….I think we have a chance.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~Berra's Law
by the_cardnial_rule on Jul 25, 2009 8:55 PM EDT reply actions
You are an idiot.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 26, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You mis-spelt
Cardinal in your username. Seriously?
The first thing that a pitcher has to understand is that Albert is better than you.-- Jim Palmer
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