Cardinals Acquire Matt Holliday in exchange for Brett Wallace, Clay Mortensen, Shane Peterson
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:27 PM EDT
1296 comments
It's a done deal: Holliday and multiple St. Louis curtain calls to the Cardinals, Wallace and co. to the Athletics.
Here are the things that are still true:
- Matt Holliday is still an excellent baseball player. Right now he's got an OPS+ of 125; in addition to that he runs well and fields well. Nobody—not even my favorite TTO guy, Jack Cust—is hitting for power in Oakland this year. If you want to get really optimistic about it you can hope that his power has been depressed to an undue degree by playing in that notorious pitcher's park in that notorious league. Even if the trade doesn't make much sense—and it doesn't—the Cardinals have upgraded.
- Brett Wallace is still an excellent baseball hitter. There are questions here—in the end it comes down to Mozeliak's stats and scouts vs. Beane's stats and scouts, who must weigh Wallace's defensive and power potential in any deal. Certainly he's worth more to an AL club.
- Which makes it weird that the Cardinals still had to throw in Peterson, one of their vaguely fringy corner bats, and Mortensen, the Golden Sinker.
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Potential lineup?
1. Skip – 2b
2. Colby – Cf
3. Albert – 1b
4. Matt Holliday – Lf
5. Ryan Ludwick – Rf
6. Mark DeRosa – 3b
7. Yadi – C
8. Pitcher
9. Brendan Ryan – Ss
Bench: Lugo, LaRue, Ankiel, Thurston?
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 24, 2009 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I know it’ll probably never happen, but I think having Holliday at 3, Albert at 4 and Luddy 5th would be even better. Meh.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 24, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gotta break up the lefties...
Schumaker 2B
DeRosa 3B
Pujols 1B
Holliday LF
Ludwick RF
Rasmus CF
Molina C
Ryan SS
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
also, Colby out of the 2 slot
One plus from all this is that he will be able to use his speed and swipe some bases not hitting right in front of Pujols.
by Huck Finn on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya he gotta use his "fair" speed
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Against lefties
Swap DeRo and Colby in the lineup, put Lugo in for Skip (and maybe swap him with Ryan).
I predict we will hit lefties better from now on.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya i think we see lugo playing 2b
against lefties
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks good. No excuses now. Time to put the pedal to the medal.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 24, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if I were manager
1. Skip – 2b
2. Cobly – Cf
3. Albert – 1b
4. Holliday – Lf
5. Ludwick – Rf
6. DeRosa – 3b
7. Ryan -SS
8. Yadi – C
9. Pitcher.
Ryan infront of Yadi because of his speed.
by Evilfrog on Jul 24, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitcher after Yadi?
Doesn’t Tony not put Molina in front of the pitcher, so he can use the pitcher to bunt over a speedy guy?
I thought he hit the pitcher 9th the other day to avoid that.
by djsmokyc on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if I were manager
I wouldn’t bat the pitcher 8th.
by Evilfrog on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dont want to be bunting Molina over tho
by njnick on Jul 24, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but, but, his super speed!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Yadi can throw himself instead of running the bases?
He does have that cannon arm…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is this like Albert exceeding the AP?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right. But I like the ideal of ryan being able to score on a molinda hit more than molina scoring on a ryan hit.
by Evilfrog on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate our bench
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want Holliday batting 2nd personally
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
vs. lhp and rhp
lhp
ss ryan
3b derosa
1b pujols
lf holliday
rf ludwick
c molina
2b lugo
cf skip
rhp
2b skip
3b derosa
1b pujols
lf holliday
cf rasmus
rf ludwick
c molina
ss ryan
by cardsforever on Jul 24, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure theyll move skip to the outfield
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
by RasRoY on Jul 24, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
i would assume Skip just sits for all lefties from now on. He pretty much does anyway…
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 24, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
skip should never ever play CF. ever.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jul 24, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hes pretty athletic
i think he could handle it for a few games a week at the most
but we gotta have a left handed hitting outfielder and shumaker hits them better than rasmus and ankiel
by cardsforever on Jul 24, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no. no. and no. skip's metrics in center are awful.
ankiel and ludwick would both be better in CF. if rasmus goes out for any extended period, we should call jay up for defense.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quickly forgot last season
skippy was CF after Ank got hurt. Ave CF so let’s not repeat that one
by ubeddie on Jul 24, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Larussa
So there will be 100 different iterations, for better or worse. All of them infinitely better than what we had before. Still need that 5th starter (and I would have preferred Dunn and the fact that we would have given up less), but this team just became one to contend with any in the league.
by mwrg on Jul 24, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This better be a sign-and-trade thing.
Otherwise, that’s a whole lot to give up for 2 months of a player. Even still, I wonder how they cover the salary considerations next year. This is a Boras guy, so I wouldn’t expect any “hometown discount” here.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Precisely
Maybe this is contingent on Holliday dumping Boras?
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta get over...
the two months hang up. We’re in a pennant race. That means these two months are enormously important.
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not an advocate of the all-in approach.
Yes, these two months are important. I’m not sure they’re sacrifice-the-next-few-years important. Maybe they believe this is the best way to get an extension done with Pujols. Maybe they think they better take advantage of LaRussa this year. If so, then it’s worth it.
They know their finances better than I, but I’ll be VERY pissed about all of the financial moaning and groaning of the last few years if they suddenly bump the damn payroll by 20%.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have a shot at the series
You take your shot.
If we were 4 games back playing sub five hundred ball and you make this trade (harden) you’re an idiot.
This is aggressive and gutsy and I really, really like it.
With DeRosa coming we go from a can’t win 2-1 games to a potent offense with one of the best starting four in baseball, an above average pen, and the best closer in the NL.
When your team is legitimately one piece away, you need to get the piece.
by dugmartsch on Jul 24, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ask Milwaukee how that turned out.
Even still, you’re talking about losing two immediate bats for 2 draft picks that we won’t see for at least 2 years. That puts some bad baseball in between.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
robinson
was never going to be helpful to the ml team. he’s a throw in. I’m a little upset about mortenson though.
by rannpb on Jul 24, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
robinson
is still memphis
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 24, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
peterson. he was "sugar shane 2: the sweetening"
he made it . . . to springfield I think? not to memphis. you’re thinking of the first sugar shane, shane robinson. we’ve still got him.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing to consider:
“Worst case scenario” could be that Holliday plays out the season and then ACCEPTS arbitration.
You could do worse than having Holliday in LF on a 1 year, $15-16M contract in 2010.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not much worse, ...
given the financial whining they’ve been doing, the current self-imposed cap, and the need to fill the Pineiro slot in the rotation. Especially, since we just gave away one of the guys that might have filled it.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no it better not be
this team cannot afford to give Holliday $15M + for several years if it intends to resign Pujols.
by chuckb on Jul 24, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my fear
Trading Wallace for Holliday isn’t worth it unless you re-sign Holliday. However, if you re-sign Holliday for $15MM+, you can’t afford to re-sign Pujols.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see it like that
What if the team simply raises payroll? Remember only a couple years ago we had a 100M+ payroll
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember a couple years ago when people had jobs,
could buy houses, and maybe even a car? That one contract would raise the current payroll over 15%. That’s a lot. We also need a 3B, a number 4 & 5 starter, a setup man, and a closer. We might need a 2B, and we’re in desparate need of bench help. We just traded away 2, maybe 3 options to fill those holes cheaply.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you have to consider
The cardinals have been bucking that trend, attendance is on pace to be close to the if not the same as last year
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
by elirock83 on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Attendance is not the driving factor in revenues in MLB
Corporate sponsorship and luxury box purchases are much bigger parts of the total revenue. This team has felt the pinch to the point that they reduced payroll drastically due to the concern of said corporate dollars. That should be pretty evident by the fact that they have gone through significant cost-cutting despite the attendance numbers.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't think you can whole sale attendance facts
A lot of the cost cutting was done to brace for poor sponsership and attendance and luxury box ( which i really include with attendance, its in the ball park and the idea is to watch the game). From what i read they are in better shape than most teams. You don’t get the kind of money a guy like dewitt has not know how to brace for shit, when the shit hits the fan
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
by elirock83 on Jul 24, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make it sound far worse than it is
Holes at closer? Setup Man? I’m pretty sure we have Fanklin, Motte, McClellan, and Todd who are all capable of filling those roles. Second Base? Schumaker can continue to play second. If for whatever reason, the team feels he is not getting the job done, Lugo could play second, or a minor league guy like Hoffpauir, Descalso, or T. Greene. Bench Help? Maybe, but again T. Greene, Hoffpauir, Craig, Freese, Jay, and Ank if resigned cheap are all inexpensive bench options who still provide value.
Really the main holes in next years Cardinals are two you identified: 4 & 5 starters and third base. I completely agree with you that those are issues, but the others are simply not and it blows it out of proportion.
by stl522 on Jul 24, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
almost all of those players you've described are replacement level.
franklin is better and to some extent k-mac. skippy could become a better than replacement value player at 2b. but there are real holes on the team.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not true
Franklin and Motte especially are above replacement level. McClellan is talented enough to be a dominant setup man. Todd, if he is not a PTBNL in the Indians deal, projects as closer material. Schumaker is above replacement level, same with a healthy Ankiel. Descalso and Freese both have the potential to be above replacement as well.
by stl522 on Jul 24, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
franklin
is replacement level?
Come on.
by dugmartsch on Jul 24, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jason motte net WAR 2009: - 0.1 win.
= replacement level
kyle mcclellan net WAR 2009: 0.1 win
rick ankiel net WAR 2009: 0.2 win
skip schumaker net WAR 2009: 0.5 win
sure, descalso or freese – if he’s healthy – could be good. but when you’re quick to label these guys good players or to suggest that Julio Lugo or Jarett Hoffpauir are answers as starters at second, i start to wonder.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im pretty sure glaus is gone
and pinero is probaby going to be offered a contract, but it will be a lot less than he is making right now. he will probably turn that down
so thats about 18 mil of payroll
then ducan gone
larue is probably gone
lugo is going to be paid league minimum
ankiel will probably be gone
ludwick is still cheap for his production
i think we will be fine but our pitching staff will probably suffer
and if the unspeakable happens to carpenter next season were so screwed for years to come
by cardsforever on Jul 24, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what if Pujols stays because we have Holliday?
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
Pujols isn’t going to stay in a ghostown.
If i were Matt Holiday and I had a chance to hit behind Albert Pujols for two or three years I’d take a discount. I’ll make my money on the backend.
The Pujols effect > the Coors effect
by dugmartsch on Jul 24, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lineup protection doesn't work that way.
Why doesn’t anyone understand this?
You can't teach a hammer to love nails.
by the red baron on Jul 25, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand.
I just think they are putting a lot of eggs in this basket if it isn’t. I’m not really concerned with the loss of Peterson, but I was pretty shocked they gave up Mortensen, too. This team is in need of cheap SP, and it seems like they’re banking a lot on the development of Boggs, Garcia, and Hawksworth.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just put up a FanPost which addresess this
It doesn’t answer the question for management, but it lays out the payroll scenario for the next few years.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 24, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
from other thread... let's go for broke
Who wants to photoshop a stache on Matt?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's Such a Man He Could Grow One This Afternoon
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's what real ball players do
It’s why Tony loves him so much.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got nothin' better to do for a few minutes...
…I’m on it.
by vexedtechie on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good work!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He looks better with the stache
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
by RasRoY on Jul 24, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday growing a mustache better be part of this deal
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or at least draw one on like Colby's
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
by RasRoY on Jul 24, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Colby has a pencil in the dugout to reapply between innings?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't ask me how I know this
I believe they have ‘performance makeup’ nowadays. Stays on all day.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Colby should apply more then
His current mustache is basically an optical illusion
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colbys game day photo reminds me of Joseph Gribel from King of the Hill
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 24, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and now in a cardinals uni?
capital letters suck.
by soccerfreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm impressed
A winner is you!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't ESPN spend untold millions on their cap-switching technology?
well done
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I can get a job for WWL...
haha
by vexedtechie on Jul 24, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or just be the resident photoshopper here... lol
by vexedtechie on Jul 24, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we pay less
but you never have to talk to any espn personalities. you have to decide how much that’s worth to you.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Flim hasn't come through for me
Can you photoshop Mo and LaRussa into the movie poster for “Dumb and Dumber”?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at a PS computer
Those were just some I have done in the past
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah
All apologies
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sweet
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I follow minor league baseball more than majors, so it is difficult for me to see three prospects go. I view this as solely Wallace for Holliday. If Holliday doesn’t resign, then Peterson and Mortensen are easily replaceable by the compensation picks. If he does, we have several 3rd -4th OF types and backend starters to replace them
Looking by MLE, I think a realistic expectation for Wallace is a OPS in the .750 – .850 range , which would likely 110 POD+ guy If he is able to stay at 3B and not be too bad defensively, he’s a valuable player. If he can’t stay at 3B and has to switch to 1B or LF, then its fairly easily to replace him.
by maurerdj on Jul 24, 2009 12:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is it a given
that we offer Holliday arb?
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes unless Mo is crazy.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 24, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is evident he is now known as
CRAZY MO!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 24, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you
Honestly, I’m kind of sick to my stomach right now.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mortensen
was at AAA and could’ve been in the rotation next year. He’s replaceable, but not next year + you never know how draft picks will turn out. Losing Mortensen has value, not as much as Wallace, of course, but it’s not nothing.
by chuckb on Jul 24, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thus why Shelby Miller
must be signed!
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jul 24, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mort can be replaced if
Garcia comes back healthy.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 24, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF. IF, dude. that's not nothing.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's time to replace
MO.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Jul 24, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Argh!
Mort too?!
I …. I can’t breathe.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 12:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel .... I feel... I feel..... I feel.... I feel like PK!!!!
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 13 recs
That. Is. Awesome.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've got a photoshop job for you (see below)
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is great
side note isn’t that cobra commander, i am truly laugh into pain
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
by elirock83 on Jul 24, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Brad Thompson IS Cobra Commander
I am just as shocked as you are
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't even think of it like that, AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Chuck Norris CAN divide by zero"
by elirock83 on Jul 24, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So THAT'S why he's not been pitching much lately.
He’s been working on the new GI Joe movie.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 24, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
great scouting
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A's fan chiming in.
You guys are gonna like Holliday.
Can somebody give me a quick and dirty rundown on Mortensen? “The Golden Sinker” is a pretty sweet nickname, I think we’ll steal that at AN.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Morts upside = Jake Westbrook
Kid has a real heavy sinker, but some serious control issues and he can be prone to the long ball. He’s a good prospect though, and if he lives up to his potential, can be a solid middle of the rotation starter
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's basically all he is
lately the cardinals have gone all-in on low-projection college pitchers, and Mortensen was perhaps the best of the bunch. He’s got a great sinker, he’s reached AAA early for draft but not age, and he’s begun to adapt to it. Unlike a lot of great sinker guys his statistical profile actually shows it—he gets a ton of ground balls.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The guy throws a decent sinker...
…but he doesn’t have much else right now. His changeup only has about 4-6 mph of difference (pretty bad of course) and he can be pretty wild. His ceiling is a 3/4/5 starter, but those are important too.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be ok with the deal
if it was just Wallace for Holliday. However; I hope we use that 1.5 Mil to sign Miller.
by Evilfrog on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They better sign Shelby Miller now
otherwise, their farm system will be ranked nearly dead last next year. No Wallace, No Rasmus, No Perez, No Mort
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
honestly
I was kind of hoping that the Athletics threw in one guy to fill out the deal and relieve some of their DH glut.
That’s right: Daric Barton.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
hah!
in your dreams. Have you come to grips with the fact that Barton may not even be able to stick as a DH?
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll go down with the ship
he’s only a year older than wallace, after all.
I’m kidding, but only mostly. His age-18 season at Peoria was my favorite prospect year of all time. That was some extraordinary hitting.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you read any insights...
as to why he hasn’t developed as expected? He’s had some injuries… Otherwise, is it just a case of a line drive bat that never gained any power?
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
it’s just a case of a guy who wasn’t supposed to really hit for power not hitting for power.
I think he’s a major league hitter, though—badly timed injuries and slow starts, more than competence, have kept him out of a starting lineup full time.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's never been projected to hit for power.
He had a bad season as a rookie offensively, but actually got REALLY good as a defensive first baseman.
He’s still only 24 and had an .840 OPS in Triple-A this season.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was Daric Barton our best positional prospect at the time of the Mulder deal?
Or at least best hitting prospect?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I ask because my knowledge of the farm was nil back then.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barton-Wallace
Yes, and Wallace’s lack of power as he’s moved up is strangely similar to Barton. However, I still think this is a bad trade.
KJOK
by KJOK on Jul 24, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
far and away
as far as I remember. He was certainly the only dreamy prospect whose pictures I clipped out of Tiger Beat.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah yes
The Tiger Beat: Prospect Edition.
Eat your heart out, Nick Jonas.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was hoping for Haren back.
What? He’s plays where now?
Pretty much FML any time Todd Wellemeyer touches a baseball.
by Cardinals645 on Jul 24, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what Luhnow is thinking today
by riotmute on Jul 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
followed by
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
With good reason
The euphoria of this trade is going to wear off quickly once people realize we’ve traded a big chunk of the future for hope. Hope that Holliday was worth it.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
time will tell if this was worth it.
but i already miss wallace.
awesome protection for pujols though.
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
crap
In the depths of my hysteria, I can’t stop calling him “Matty Ho.”
I gotta stop that…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like it.....
I think this addresses the teams biggest need, a guy in the lineup that can get on base. We have plenty of power. We have our guys like Skip and Ryan. We really needed another guy that can draw walks and hit for a decent average. We’ve got that.
Depending on how resigning Holliday and other deals go, we might even be able to move Luddy this offseason. Just something to keep in mind if you are worried about $’s.
The one bad thing I see is that it’ll be really tough to offer arby to Glaus now, in case he were to accept, assuming of course that we resign Holliday.
Wallace was blocked, and it looks like the club didn’t think he could plya 3B or LF.
Peterson wasn’t listed as one of our top 20 prospects over at FR. We have plenty of medicore OF depth ahead of him anyways, PLUS we have a full OF at the ML level.
And I know some of you like Morty, but he was ranked behind Boggs and Garcia coming into the year, he’d be behind Shelby if we
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Long-time lurker, first-time poster...
…but I wholeheartedly agree. Honestly, I think this, combined with DeRosa and, to a lesser extent, Lugo, shores up the offense very nicely (which, let’s face it, has been the major problem all season). Now, combine that with the fact that Ludwick appears to have come around…and the pitching (aside from the Colonel, of course) has been excellent…doesn’t this pretty much give us what we need to compete with the Dodgers and Phillies for the NL title?
by splhcb67 on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the whole purpose for drafting a surplus of hitters who are blocked, fringy corner outfielders, and pitchers who profile to be #4/5 at best (and don’t tell me Mort was a potential top-of-the-rotation guy…) is to move them for players who can help you win now and to be able to draft players who can be potential #1s or All-Stars.
Isn’t that the model?
I just can’t see how it’s fair to judge the deal until we know if Holliday and Pujols are re-signed. If the agreement was “DeWitt, I can make this move, but you have to up the payroll”… then how is it really that bad?
by soil_illini on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dis/Agree
I agree on Mortensen and on Robinson. I’m okay with them leaving. Guys like that should be traded. However, the value of Wallace is far greater than the value of Holliday, so why did we have to throw those guys into this deal? Wallace is a future heart-of-the-order guy. At the very least, he could be an ideal #2 hitter in front of the heart. All I know is that if this eventually leads to the Cardinals not re-signing Pujols over money demands, I’m going to be very angry and sad.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See...
I have never valued Wallace that much.
I think he tops out as Nick Johnson, but with worse defense.
I don’t think he’s even Sean Casey, and I would trade 6 years of Sean Casey for 4 more years of Albert Pujols.
by soil_illini on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Johnson????
No way
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nick johnson was/is a great hitter
he’s like best-case scenario brett wallace if brett wallace were made of glass. check out that age-20 season in AA.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seeing as how
Nick Johnson’s non-injury ability was around the .290 .419 .501 line he put up in ‘05/’06, that sounds about right actually. Which is really valuable.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 24, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am really surprised the cow is still among us
Hanging in there man?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 24, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how would moving Luddy in the offseason save us $?
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 24, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wonder
what ankiel is thinking right now.
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
probably
“I shouldn’t have sucked for four months.”
I’m hoping he gets it together as a fourth outfielder, I can’t not root for Rick Ankiel.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You realize this just
puts Colby on the pine even more often now, don’t you? First rule of a TLR team … Ank always gets chances other players don’t.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not true at all
duncan got plenty of those same chances ;)
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bases loaded
two outs, pinch hitting for the pitcher.
duncan or ankiel?
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Josh the Bat Boy
Even if he did retire.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
in all honesty i’d probably hit ank.
but duncan could possibly draw a walk which makes it tough
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case I really hate this trade.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't operate under the assumption
that tony la russa is doing everything he can to undermine this team. Ankiel will play more than, I don’t know, Stavinoha would have, but he’s not going to turn into a third-and-a-half outfielder.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't bet on that
My prediction: Minimum 140 more PAs for Ankiel this season.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ankiel wasn't playing full time
when his competition was chris duncan. I’m sorry, but I trust la russa to at least realize that matt holliday is a better outfielder than chris duncan.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is this "trust" of which you speak?
I’m sorry, this year has nearly obliterated the once-great respect I had for TLR. Nothing but insanity or megalomania explains the utterly bizarre roster and lineup management of 2009, not to mention the ugly public power plays. Even if we win the WS this is Tony’s worst Cardinal season IMHO.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have no problem seeing tony's issues.
still, even knowing him, this is a holliday/rasmus/ludwick OF barring injuries at least 3 nights out of 4. ankiel doesn’t make any sense out there.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that doesn't mean he won't find a way
to see it happen on a regular basis
by nmstar on Jul 24, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After 2 F'IN YEARS of lobbying for this guy ...
he better put him in the lineup everyday. He’s been whining for this specific “impact bat” for two years. Now he has what he wanted. If he platoons him now, I’m done.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, the argument is
that Luddy or Rasmus will be platooned, not Holliday. And I think that’s exactly what will happen, though I’ll admit my blood pressure is pushing me into road rage territory at the moment.
At the very least, I hope Moz is texting to TLR: “OK, Tony, win, and BTW, STFU.”
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ankiel will play more than we think
And Ludwick and Rasmus will play less than we think. That is my fear, at least.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ank against tough LHP
to protect the kid and Ank once a week to rest Ludwick
by ubeddie on Jul 24, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the question
is whether he realizes that colb is better than ankiel
by spencegrif on Jul 24, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please be right
I don’t doubt you, but I am having trouble being entirely rational about this still. Tony is Toni is Tone
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for all the adam carolla podcast fans out there
Tony? … Tony’s Tony.
by rannpb on Jul 24, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel is a proven veteran
When in doubt, on a LaRussa Cardinals team, default to the proven veteran.
by Michael_68_1999 on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
no matter how much he frustrated me i can’t help rooting for him..
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ank will still get playing time. That is the Larussa way.
Looking good now in the OF. All three, Raz/Holliday/Luds are all-star material, can field and hit.
I hope we sign Holliday.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't on the topic of the trade
But I just wanted to say…Matt Holliday is an absolute physical freak. I’ve seen him up-close (two seats behind visiting dugout at Busch vs. Rockies) — he is a JACKED dude. Absolutely monstrous.
Okay, back to being angry.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
...apropos to nothing
That’s what I thought in 97.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he is
Remember the opening day that wasn’t last season? The Cards played the Rockies, and the Rockies wore those ghastly black vests-with-black sleeves combo. The Tulo/Holliday/Atkins group were three freakishly stacked dudes, especially so in that particularly uni.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that's the game I was at
And then the makeup game also, I was two rows behind the Rox dugout. What a beast he is.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the one good thing this does
is that it removes any temptation in 2012 to let pujols go and move wallace to first.
I think we massively overpaid here, though. Any one of the two of wallace, mortenson was a an overpayment.
the end of every half inning IS a turning point. -Evilfrog
by SleepyCA on Jul 24, 2009 12:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If they were willing to deal Wallace...
they should have done it a long time ago. We could have used him while Duncan and Ankiel were failing miserable for the last 3 months
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, we got a one game lead so time to win some games.
Wellemeyer is an issue though so I hope we can get a 5th starter.
Honestly I would like to see Boggs get another crack.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Goold's twitter:
“Word is the deal does not include any talk of an extension for Holliday. Is going to be a McGwire, Rolen type sales pitch.”
by santiagofish on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hah
so basically he won’t be re-signing here
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott Boras
that is all.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i heard if you turn off the lights in the bathroom and turn on the faucet
and then say “Scott Boras” three times while facing the mirror, he’ll show up in your house, kick your dog, steal your wallet and eat a baby.
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this IS a horror movie
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see.....
………………
Oh my God, you’re right!
MY WALLET!
uh, and MY BABY!
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the next lohse?
capital letters suck.
by soccerfreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laughable
That makes the move even worse. The only way it makes sense is if they secured a window to discuss an extension before finalizing the deal. If we really just gave up that package for two months of Holliday, we’d better win the World Series. Making the playoffs alone does not justify this move.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There were a few posts on AthleticsNation about Holliday wanting to play in StL.
To the extent that Holliday could potentially tell Boras that he wants to play there, and to get him the best deal there, and that’s that.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is from Oklahoma...
So it’s plausible…
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 24, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love St. Louis
I love Busch Stadium. I love our tradition. I love our fans. When I was younger, I used to believe that players took less money—the hometown deal, or, Baseball Heaven deal—to play in St. Louis before the best fans in baseball. Nowadays, I look at Kyle Lohse’s and Jo-El Pineiro’s contracts and laugh, because it’s so obviously not the case. The notion that Holliday “wants” to play in St. Louis and will therefore tell the greediest man in baseball that is his desire and to make it happen at a reasonable price seems absurd to me. I don’t mean to be insulting because this could happen. Of course, Dave Duncan could come back next year after the Chris Duncan Trade, too.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Duncan
that’s the most underrated guy in the organization – let’s increase the payroll to keep that guy, not M.Holliday
by robclark on Jul 24, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's already the highest paid pitching coach in baseball.
Despite his obliviousness to release points.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"greediest man in baseball"?
Not sure I can fault the guy. His job is to get the most guaranteed money for his clients unless directed otherwise. When he’s given different instructions, he follows them, like A rod staying in nyc, lohse in stl, aaand, he’s probably done it some other time. I like how he has the balls to exploit the holes selig set up on behalf of his clients. I feel like if other agents aren’t doing that, they’re not doing their jobs or their clients have different demands.
i just can’t fault the guy for doing his job.
by spencegrif on Jul 24, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
but A-Rod went around Boras to re-sign with the Yanks. A-Rod also went around Boras to sign with the Mariners out of high school. If he would have followed Boras’s plan, and not had the intervention of a family friend, he would have probably gone to play for the University of Miami, a la Aaron Crow and in the Indy League, another Boras client.
by stl522 on Jul 24, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crow is Hendricks not Boras
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 24, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the next lohse?
capital letters suck.
by soccerfreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If by "the next Lohse" you mean "the next overpaid free agent," then yes.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i mean a boras client that didn't really hit the free agent market and probly got payed less for playing here.
capital letters suck.
by soccerfreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He got paid more in both dollars and years
Mo made an “aggressive” signing, just like with Pineiro, before the market developed. We could have had Lohse for probably 75% of the dollars and 75% of the years if we had been patient. He got the largest FA pitching contract outside of CC Sabathia.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't we all think the Pineiro signing was a good one now?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't
It was bad the day it was made, it was bad every day of last season, and it has been bad every day of this season. At that point in time, guaranteeing Pineiro two years and $7.5MM in the second of those was a poor decision. If he’d have signed him for a lesser total dollar amount, then it would have been okay. It’s just like the Lohse signing being horrible the day it was completed.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fangraphs has Pineiro being worth $14.8M just this season alone
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he has pitched great this season.
What you’re suggesting is that Mo knew Pineiro would pitch this well this season after pitching below value last year. I’m not looking at this retrospectively. At the time the deal was made, assuming Pineiro was going to be a “deal” in 2009 was silly. If the total deal’s worth had been, say, $10MM, I’d have been fine with it because Pineiro was bad. He was worth about $4MM last year. I doubt very much that Mo projected this out of Pineiro. No one did.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well then, what constitutes a good signing?
You’re being unreasonable. Starters have been getting overpaid ever since the Zito deal went down. We needed starting pitching, and maybe Mo did know that Joel had some upside. We had no place to go, and the contracts both seem infinitely reasonable now.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jul 24, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure that Mo signed Pineiro
Because of his good lucky 2 months in 07. He hadn’t actually been good since 04.
Fuck Billy Beane
by vivaelpujols on Jul 24, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And AJ Burnett
and Derek Lowe.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 24, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
I forgot about the genuine top-of-the-rotation guys. That shows you where the market was for Lohse even more. He’s nowhere near the caliber of either CC, AJ, or Lowe.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I also think that the Yanks outbid themselves for both CC and Burnett, when they would have been better served to do what he Braves did and trade for Vazquez and sign Lowe.
I agree that Lohse was more expensive than he probably should have been, but let’s just see if he outpitches his contract. Piniero is currently on pace to outpitch his entire contract this season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 24, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
&*#@&*!#*#$&$*@&@^@#$$ once again
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and how is this going to make us better long-term?
I thought Mo was going to build a long-term future by cultivating top prospects. So now he goes right back to the Jockety philosophy? This doesn’t make any sense.
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
only if Wallace sticks at 3B
if Wallace is destined for 1B than the trade makes more sense.
by ubeddie on Jul 24, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so pumped for this move
Big rockies fan was hoping the deal would have happened in the offseason, but he was so clutch in so many situations in Colorado in his time here.
by roxbombers on Jul 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
More silver lining
well for the #HPGF, at least
Does Craig move back to 3rd base at AAA?
by djsmokyc on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
tgreene
has been playing it lately anyway
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this shows the organization's true outlook on David Freese
Earlier this year, non-St. Louis broadcasters would say things like, “The front office really believes this guy is the third baseman of the future for this organization” about Freese. I would scoff and say aloud to my T.V., “Yeah? What about Wallace?” Well, now I know. I also think that the treatment of Craig this season has offered a glimpse into the valuation of Freese, Wallace, and Craig at the hot corner. It seems now that that valuation was (1) Freese; (2) Wallace; (3) Craig.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FREEEEEEEEEEEZIN
RESTIN HIS HEAD ON A PILLOW MADE OF CONCRETE
AGAIN
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oakland is in NY, so will we see Holliday in the lineup tonight?
by secretweapon on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
apparently yes
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
other thread
We decided he’s parachuting in.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a zip line that connects the two cities?
Because that would be REALLY cool.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you don't know about the zip line network?!
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
those fancy east coast commuters
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man the East Coast is so awesome
Way cooler than the Midwest. The best we have is that crummy old dirigible that goes to Memphis. At least it’s useful for roster machinations though.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in the TLR era
I’m shocked there isn’t a hovercraft between Busch and Memphis.
“To the docks, mighty Joe! You’re going to Saint Louis!”
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sigh... and the future of Albert in St. Louis
Not sure that this is a good move. Lots of talk about the “long term value” of Wallace against whatever the short-term value may be from Holliday, with caveats thrown in about the need to resign Holliday if the deal is to be valuable for the Cardinals.
That said, my concern is about how this move may have serious long term implications on whether the Cards can resign Albert Pujols. Much has been made of the need to provide Albert with protection and show in the Cards are committed to winning. This deal does that in the short term.
But the converse is that if the Cards have a hope of signing Albert and remaining competitive, a big part of that out come was and is tied to building a solid cheap offensive core around him. Wallace, in addition to Rasmus, Jones and Ludwick represented major players in putting such a core in place by 2011. With Wallace gone, so goes a major chunk of that core (cause we don’t know yet what will happen with Jones and Ludwick will get more expensive). To devote $25 million or $30 million a season to Albert, the club must have a cheap offensive core and selling of Wallace (regardless of whether you resign Holliday or not) makes those costs difficult to swallow in the future.
by JMedwick on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I look at it the exact opposite
Albert wanted to be shown by ownership/Mo that the front office is committed to winning and making the moves necessary to do so. This proves that they are serious, and will likely help his decision to sign here.
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are talking about the philosophical side
not the cold are cash side and of the two, the second matters more.
The deal, as I said, shows a “commitment to winning” because Holliday is an “known quantity” and “star.”
But in the end, none of that matters because:
A. It will cost a boat load to resign Holliday. If the Cards keep him around he will make it more financial difficult to sign Albert to a long term extension if he is demanding $25 million to $30 million a season. .
B. If the Cards loose Holliday, with Wallace gone, the Cards will have fewer young players ready in 2011 to provide cheap high-quality offensive output.
by JMedwick on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Albert said he will make it work
if the team shows him they are committed to winning. This will not jeopardize Alberts signing here at all, it likely increased the chances.
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is silly.
Babel all the catch phrases you want. It does not matter how “committed to winning” the Cardinals are, if the dollars don’t work, then it does not matter. This deal no doubt plays a roll in affirming the Cards commitment to wining, but but unless Albert is prepared to translate “commitment to winning” into hard dollars and cents (Albert has never said or indicated a willingness to do a “hometown discount” type deal ,in his first deal, Albert specifically said he wouldn’t take a discount to play in STL), then this deal does not matter. All that matters is making the money work and this deal makes that much more difficult.
by JMedwick on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Albert and total payroll
Look at it this way. Without Albert, payroll in 2012 is equal to X. With Albert, payroll in 2012 is equal to X + Y, with Y represented by the increased revenue the Cards generate by having a player like Albert on the team.
Now is Y equal to $5 mm, $10 mm or $20 mm? Don’t know but I would think the Cards have a financial model built to calculate Y.
by ubeddie on Jul 24, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well not exactly
The 2012 payroll would be explained by
X= total payroll without Albert
y= Albert
z= player on the 25 man roster who Albert Replaces
Total Payroll 2012= (x-z)+y
They is how the total payroll figure compares to the total revenue figure. Sure Albert by himself adds a lot of value to the Cardinals, but I DeWitt is now willing to up payroll and eat up the added value by returning it to the players, then the increased value does not matter. Budgets exist for a reason and the question is how Albert fits into the long term budgetary picture.
by JMedwick on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Missing the revenue side
The payroll budget is different if Albert is on the team or not is my point. The target net income number can remain the same under both scenarios with revenue being another variable. Team revenue would be different if Albert is on the team in 2012. How much different is an unknown, but it would be several million lower. That difference would equate to reduction in team payroll.
The basis for a budget is a target net income number, not an expense number.
by ubeddie on Jul 24, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hu?
And why not?
If the money doesn’t work, then the deal doesn’t get done. This you don’t pay people with wish, hopes and commitments to winning. To pay them with cash.
by JMedwick on Jul 24, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because
Albert has already said that he’ll take less money to play in St Louis if they are committed to winning. His agent, the Anti-Boras has said that Pujols has made his money, now he wants to win championships.
That’s all the guy cares about.
I wouldn’t believe it from A-Rod or really any other human on the planet. But Albert is really different. Every time I read an article about him I’m reminded of how unlike everyone else in sports he is.
by dugmartsch on Jul 24, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the philisophical side
would matter if the FO decided to start negotiations for an AP extension right now. they could say “hey look at what we just did for you!” sign albert and then it doesn’t really matter if the team doesn’t have an offensive core for a year or two because…….SHIT
by spencegrif on Jul 24, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
spot on!
I am very concerned about this trade, as we’ve most likely sacrificed a very good future for a somewhat better present. This trade makes us much more likely to win the division this year, but we still aren’t one of the favorites to win the world series. A core of Pujols, Ludwick, Rasmus, and Wallace — plus the ability to add a key free-agent or two because of having cheap talent — would have put us in the position to seriously contend for the world series in a year or two.
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My feeling
Is wallace never plays another day of third base in his life.
If he comes up as a decent bat for A’s as a first basemen/DH then god bless.
We have our first basemen and we don’t need a DH.
by dugmartsch on Jul 24, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this doesn't make sense
Wallace can play third, he just cannot play it well. So, while he might be best suited to 1B or DH, he still had substantial value to us as at 3B. Again, if TLR was perfectly happy to accept Lil’ Dunc in LF and Miles and Schumaker at 2B, then why is he so unhappy with the prospect of Wallace at 3B? Having Wallace or Craig at 3B, DeRosa at 2B, and Schumaker in LF would have increased both our offense and our defense without having to give up anything further.
Also, you cannot simply value prospects based on availability to the parent club. You have to value them in relation to prospects/players throughout the league. For example, why not try to trade Wallace for a cost-controlled player at another position (Yunel Escobar??) or a young pitcher?
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For those of us who aren't up on the farm system
I see a good definition of Mortensen above.
Peterson is a pitcher, correct? What’s he like?
by sdrone on Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If we don't win a ring this year, this is a bad trade
Given Wallace’s meteoric rise through the minors, this is going to sting as we watch him putting up solid numbers by the bay … unless Holiday is enough to win us the series this year.
And why would we need the extra throw-ins beyond Wallace? We couldn’t get a two month rental of Matt Holiday straight-up for one of the best hitters in the minors?
by bgodar on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Salaries...I'll post it again in this thread.
According to ESPN.com, our current team salary is
88,528,409, not including Holliday.
Let’s assume here that Glaus and Greene are both not going to be resigned, since essentially we don’t need either of them now and both are in the last year of their contract.
Also, with our new acquisition, we are probably not going to resign Rick Ankiel. And this salary still includes Duncan. If you take out all of those salaries for next year, we have a team salary of roughly $66million.
So, if we resign Holliday for say…$15million/year, and sign DeRosa for the same price tag he has now, that brings our total salary up to $81million, which is less than our current salary. We can fill some backup and bench spots with some "B" type players and still have around $5-10 million to work with. I’m not sure who else we would have to resign next year, but it seems to me that Holliday will fit perfectly in with the salary budget we have…at least for the next couple of years.
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have a fanpost with a spreadsheet relating to this
You are VASTLY underestimating the cost of arbitration eligible players and salary raises for players under contract next season. Not the mention, you’re not filling in any holes at 3B or either starting pitcher.
Derosa will not sign for $5M for next season, try $8M or more.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 24, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like it....
This smell like another Haren for Mulder deal.
by Cards67 on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
they weren't directly related
but 2006 happened after the Mulder/Haren Trade. If the trade isn’t made, perhaps the planets don’t align to allow 2006 to happen?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having Dan Haren in the rotation vs. Not having Mark Mulder
Don’t you think we win the NLCS in five and the World Series in four with Haren in the rotation?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we'll never know
maybe they cruise to the playoffs with Haren in the rotation? Maybe they don’t get hot at the right time? Maybe Jeff Weaver, Anthony Reyes, Jeff Suppan, ect don’t pitch quite as well?
I’m sad we missed out on Haren as a Cardinal all these years, but we don’t know what that would have meant. Maybe they don’t get swept in ’04? Maybe they win it in ’05? I buried my Haren/Mulder Angst with Wainwright curveballs to Beltran & Inge.
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
this is awful
only 1.5 mil kicked in according to espn
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
so what I wanna know is -- whither Wellemeyer? and Thurston?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hope this isn't just a flash in the pan............
I have the feeling losing Wallace is going to come back and bite us big.
by Chip Reed on Jul 24, 2009 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why?
It’s not like any trade we’ve done with Beane has ever bitten us in the ass before.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
though to get particular about it
the last ++ discipline, line drive hitter with defensive issues beane stole from us did not turn out to be the deal-breaker.
obviously, I’m suggesting that clay mortensen is going to win twenty games next year.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about?
Daric Barton is TEARING IT UP to the tune of .107/.265/.286 so far this year. Look at that OBP! It’s like 160 points higher than his BA!
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
keep in mind it was the toss-in, not the centerpiece, that bit us in the a**…
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kiko Calero?
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I looked it up and it's all blank... a blurry blank...
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If anyone wants to pretend this didn't happen
As soon as MLB Network gets back from commercial, the replay of last night’s Quick Pitch will be talking about “which NL team is leading the pack” in the pursuit of Holliday.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no mustache. fail.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
thats where you've been this morning
working on your photoshop
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is eerie
it looks like he just proclaimed himself emperor.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dictator Perpetuo...
as it were.
by mynameistyler on Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It does have that Jacques-Louis David/ Napoleon look, doesn't it
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Willingham vs. Holliday
Willingham career OPS+: 122
Holliday OPS+: 131
Scratching my head as to why we paid such a dear price when someone comparable was available for much less.
by pitchingandefense on Jul 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
With a name like pitchinganddefense...
I think you’d know the answer.
by IA Card on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because the Manager came out in the papers
in Decemeber, March, June and July saying he wanted Matt Holliday.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was he available for much less?
You really don’t know that, you’re just speculating.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jul 24, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were going to Willingham, but he failed Waino's test yesterday..
“if you can hit this curveball you’re in” ohh..darn sorry I guess we’ll take Holliday.
by ADMDrayson on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you have a good point there
No wonder Waino came back out after the rain delay…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figure
you guys are happy the Rockies turned down the Ludwick offer now…?
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we offered
luds to the rockies?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was supposedly the inital offer for Holliday in Novermber
before it was turned down and he was sent to OAK
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wrong
that’s what the Rockies asked for — Ludwick +. The Cards never offered Ludwick!
by chuckb on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...I didn't hear it that way
Ludwick made no sense as a return.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 25, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that trade
offered absolutely no benefit. this one at least proves that mozeliak understands how to value outfielders.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a stupid trade idea
That was a sideways move.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would have been great for Ludwick's career though
He would become… the next Matt Holliday! And be very rich.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the crazy youngster
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably not
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 25, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a catastrophically stupid move that this franchise will regret for years to come
I don’t understand the logic behind offloading a cost controlled player with a huge ceiling who has raked everywhere for a guy who will hit the free market in two months, is six years older, and will command 50-60 times as much, even if we do resign him. That’s not to mention his horrendous home/road splits. Giving up Mortensen on top of it makes even less sense.
FML
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i was reluctant at first
but until we see wallace play in the bigs we can’t make any assumptions.
however it is billy beane we’re dealing with…
by cardsrule15 on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huge ceiling
I have to say I disagree with that characterization of wallace. little defensive value, probably a bad baserunner, uncertain power—you have to be pre-injury nick johnson to recoup a huge ceiling on bat alone with that profile, and I don’t think he is.
It’s splitting hairs, but I’ll take any reassurance I can offer myself today.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right. But the economics of scale are not in our favor here.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
definitely not
but wallace is, for me, still on the low end of can’t miss
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the problem for me
is wallace is good enough that we shouldn’t have been required to include a pitcher like Mortenson
by kalmavet on Jul 24, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
beane definitely got the cardinals—gets a lot of teams—on the margins of this trade.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This Cow...
…is gonna be mooping for a while…
:=8/
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 24, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta say, Danup,
I’m surprised at how calmly you’re taking this.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's cool on the outside
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like blogging angry
and I never really got emotionally attached to brett wallace as a prospect. daric barton… took that away from me.
It’s like I said in today’s first post, back when they were talking ludwick for holliday I couldn’t see any plan at all, and that would have pissed me off. I can see rational thought in this one, even though I disagree with it.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude, this is like the setup to a lousy action film,
daric barton… took that away from me.
where the hardened baseball blogger, who has been hurt too much, finally allows the fresh-faced prospect to break through his cynical exterior and learns to care again.
all i can say is that if you ever get caught in a hostage situation with shelby miller . . . watch out.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shelby Miller will be played by Shia LaBeouf
A Joel Schumacher/Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer film
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If hitting in Oakland is Holliday's problem this year,
It doesn’t explain his only having 4 HR on the road.
by tarakas on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
very little protection
in the horrible A’s lineup
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing in a pitcher's park...
can screw up your whole approach.
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way this deal happened
is because Dayton Moore left Mo alone for TWO MINUTES! TWO BLEEPING MINUTES at In-N-Out Burger and Billy tricked him.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I hope we got Matt Holliday "animal style"
by bgodar on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh the mental images...
please never photoshop this
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I picture
Moore and Mo having an “Of Mice and Men” style relationship.
Beane: Hello Mo.
Mo: furtive Dayton says I’m not supposed to talk to you.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
walt jocketty is definitely Curly in that Steinbeck work.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"goddammit you little faberge egg! why'd you have to break on me? i didn't mean to hurtcha.
we was gonna live offa fatta the land. blake was gonna let me tend the college sinkerballers myself. blake’s gonna be mad at me now."
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way i'll be truly disappointed with this deal
is if Brett Wallace handles 3rd base capably for the next 4 – 5 years in the majors.
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This may come true
He played right in front of me at the Futures Game and I thought he looked at worst average.
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One game
I trust the scouts who’ve seen him play all year that have said there is no way he lasts at 3rd base.
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you trust
the equal or greater number of scouts who said he would be league averagish?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 24, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
doesn't matter
bc he could have been flipped to an AL team or one in need of 1b for younger pitching or something. that’s more equal value.
Just saying he could have provided longer-term value for the team whether he played 3b or not.
by spencegrif on Jul 24, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols and LaRussa appeased?
It’s been known that LaRussa has a major hard-on for Holiday and Pujols is always claiming that he’d like to remain a Cardinal if the front office is willing to commit to winning… hopefully this will appease these guys for long enough to resign Pujols when the time comes…
Also, should soften the blow LaRussa felt when a good player like Duncan was traded away!
by E-Dizzle on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wondered about the TLR appeasement aspect of this deal as well...
…. coming so soon on the heels of the Duncan trade, I wonder if this was an effort to keep TLR around beyond the end of the year?
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
by birdjam on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other than winning...
Yes, winning is the important, “team” thing. I get that.
But this also should keep #5 VERY happy because it should increase his chances in a reach for the Triple Crown. Seriously, I know Pujols is every bit a team player, but the new #4 hitter could make it so that he is more effective (if that’s possible).
Acquiring Holliday (with or without facial hair) also explains the Duncun-to-Red Sox move.
Hopefully the pitching holds, the home team scores more run, and all those (well, seeming a LOT of) games lost when the Cardinals scored >3 runs won’t happen because more often they’re scoring 4+ runs.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
by p_lampe on Jul 24, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Beane
And his Bay Area mind tricks.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
those weren't brownies!!
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should turn around and trade Holliday to San Francisco for Matt Cain
and then hit Billy Beane with a steal chair.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
+1
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My God...
…that’s Danny Haren’s music!
by splhcb67 on Jul 24, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
ever since grade school
I think of so many confrontations in this way.
“Beane has the referee’s attention and—oh no, his partner’s slipped him the brass knuckles! Now he’s got the Beane mask on!”
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He definitely hit us with a "Steal" chair.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love a good chair whacking. After that drop a Randy Savage elbow on him...
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jul 24, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two more points.....
We don’t have to “win the WS” for this to be a good trade, but we probably do have to make the playoffs.
Assuming we resign Holliday, we are set at every starting position next year save 3B, and I’m hoping DeRosa resigns and plays there.
Don’t forget, we still have guys like Mather and Freese who will be back next year. I think 3B and the bench will be fine.
And one more point, I guarantee that BB asked for more. Some of you are freaking out about what we gave up, but every post about Holliday on every board I’ve read this year suggested the A’s wanted more.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can say I want Pujols for Brian Bannister
It doesn’t mean I should get anywhere near that.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For all the talk about Beane being a genius and all
Really, at some point, don’t you have to stop stockpiling young talent and actually go out there and win something?
by splhcb67 on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, we have to win the pennant
that’s for sure.
Tony kicked and screamed, he got what he wanted. He gets a player for 2 months to try and win it all.
He doesn’t do that, he fails and this deal fails.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
+1
Well said.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he and Mozeliak should both be shown the door if it does.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gotta say
i agree. i’ll have about had it
by spencegrif on Jul 24, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are a stubborn TLR-hater
So excuse me if I don’t take your opinion on that to the bank.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And we all know you set the bar low
as to deflect Tony of any criticism. You are as transparent as cellophane.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This deal has nothing to do with Tony.....
Mo made the trade. Yes, Tony wanted another bat, and we all agreed that we needed another bat. Why go cheap? We have a solid team, and now, we have as good a chance of anybody at winning the WS. That said, YOU know that the best team doesn’t always win. Playoffs are a crapshoot. But we put ourself in the conversation.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony had EVERYTHING to do with this trade
unless you’ve had your head in the sand, Tony has specifically asked for Matt Holliday on 4 separate occasions.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lack of ability to hit LHP
had something to do with this along with the chance to win this year. Tony doesn’t get all the credit.
by ubeddie on Jul 24, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so, when we win, it's because tony is the GREATEST MANAGER EVAH!
and if we lose in the playoffs it’s because of chance?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
I never give Tony ALL the credit.
Had STL made some noise before this trade, I’d have given TLR more credit. I still think he’ll manage this roster better than most others would, but now he actually has a playoff roster, so yea, he’ll get a little less credit in my eyes if we win a WS.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are exactly right.
This move has to win the pennant for this to be worthwhile. Anything short, and we blew our wad on a pipedream.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we don't win the pennant...
this is a fail. Unless the draft picks net us another Rasmus or something.
When Mulder lost game 6 of the 2005 nlcs, that was when the last trade with Beane officially became a debacle.
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fail
I don’t know why in the world you would be content with simply getting to the playoffs. Sacrificing the future just to get in the playoffs, with no real expectation of winning, is the hallmark of a bad franchise. Beane had it right when he said that you should either be something special, or build towards being something special. If you don’t do that, then you accept mediocrity. I am afraid that the Cardinals are setting themselves up for a perpetual cycle of competitive but not outstanding.
If you think this deal was OK, then compare what we gave up relative to what Oakland paid to get Holiday in the off-season. Clear win for Beane here.
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's a pretty serious expectation of winning here
this is a really good team, and it got better. but the baseball playoffs really are a crapshoot. You can’t base a trade being successful on winning the world series (the flip side is that you can’t really base a trade on winning the world series, which makes this one suspect) because even the 2006 cardinals can do it.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We didn't "sacrifice" the future.....
Especially if we resign him.
Wallace wasn’t going to the see the field in STL. We didn’t trade away someone that we could just plug into next years lineup.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You speak with such authority
for someone that doesn’t like facts.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like "facts" just fine.....
What I don’t like, is the following:
1) People that try to pass opinions off as facts, and
2) People that use faulty “facts/stats” to try to make an end-all argument.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That ain't me.....
I say all the time that there is more than one way to run a baseball team. TLR has his, it has proven successful over time, and he sticks to it. Are there “other” ways to run it? Absolutely. But Tony’s way wins ALOT of games, so I defer to him. When he stops winning, I’ll start complaining.
I’ve never once said Tony’s way of doing things is the only way. You’ve never made the concession that his way isn’t necessarily wrong.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's make a distinction here between strategy and tactics
We can like a manager’s strategy just fine because he wins a lot of games through the course of his career.
But we can simultaneously question his tactics, the individual moves he makes through the season/in games.
You can defend one of these without defending the other…you don’t have to be all in either way.
So one could say “Tony is a great manager, he’s done a lot for the Cards, I’m sure happy he’s been around” and also say “WTF is the deal with Thurston on the roster!” and not be inconsistent.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is winning
really a strategy? Isn’t that every managers goal?
by cdb on Jul 24, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
poorly worded. Winning is not his strategy, it’s his goal.
Things you could list as TLR’s strategy might include:
Sinkerball pitchers/pitching to contact
Proven veterans
Exhaustive bullpen manipulation
etc.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please
explain to me the difference between strategy and tactics. One and the same to me, and IMHO TLR is the master. OK, Joe is a joke, but this mediocre team is in1 st place. I give T some credit for that.
by kkkkathmandubirdsview on Jul 24, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
Strategy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy
Tactics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactic_(method)
Quick and dirty: Strategy is general, tactics are specific. So a TLR strategy might be “Employ pitchers who excel at getting groundballs/pitch to contact”. While a TLR tactic might be “Brendan Ryan bunts with a runner on first, nobody out, when down by 1 in the late innings”.
by arch support on Jul 28, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.....
But part of his strategy is to give bench guys alot of AB’s, to put mediocre players in platoons when necessary, and not force feed rookies. Obviously there are TONS more, but you can’t change your longterm plan on a game to game basis. If his plan is to rotate 4 OF’s for the first month of the season, partly to get the rookie acclimated, partly to take advantage of righty/lefty splits, and partly just to see what you have, you can’t abandon that “just b/c”.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 24, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know this isn't the time or place for it
but for GOB’s sake man, it is A LOT….
carry on
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 24, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could have just signed him at the end of the season in the FA market,
and still have Wallace.
"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin
by all4tookie on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the playoffs are a crapshoot...
look at 2004 – the Cardinals were BY FAR the best team in the entire league in the regular season and lost in the WS and 2006 – the Cardinals were BY FAR the worst team to make the playoffs (reg. season) and won the WS.
by stlfan on Jul 24, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
personally I just view 2006 as a karmic rebalance for 2004
Still, when making decisions, you have to do the thing that will give you the highest probability of success. And here I mean greatest probability of success over the long term — not only the thing that will make you most likely to win this year.
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally,
I view 2006 as we were crappy in the regular season because of injuries and the team got healthy which led to us getting hot. (man, is that a run on or what?)
by stlfan on Jul 25, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
i mean who are we, the brewers?
by spencegrif on Jul 24, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why Not Bat Holliday 3rd and Pujols 4th?
nt
by airhad on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
More protection for The Mang with runners on base...
PLUS the benefit of Albert’s SLG in the 4 hole with runners on would outweigh the loss of his OBP in the 3rd spot. Holliday’s high OBP is a marginal step down. The trade off would be well worth it.
by airhad on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that sucks
I didn’t like a straight up deal, so I like this even less. Those guys have so many pitchers already. They should have been kicking one our way.
I am going to have to try to block this out as best I can, because Holliday is a fantastic ballplayer, and we should have a good team the rest of the way. Unfortunately, the most likely scenario is that everybody feels buyers remorse sometime between 10-1 and 11-1. There is only one outcome where this works to our benefit. There’s no poker analogies for this one. This is playing roulette.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Always bet on Black.
Is very bad to steal A-Pu's rum...is very bad.
by Power Slurve on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh we put about 10 million on a number
which number remains to be seen, since #5 is already taken.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paging Flim for Photoshop
“Mo, just when I think you couldn’t possibly get any dumber, you do something like this, and TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!!” – TLR
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Does trading Wallace
give Freese a easier passage to third base. I wonder if that was any consideration, assuming they were truly projecting Wallace at third.
by ibby001 on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One more time...to see if I get a response.
According to ESPN.com, our current team salary is
88,528,409, not including Holliday.
Let’s assume here that Glaus and Greene are both not going to be resigned, since essentially we don’t need either of them now and both are in the last year of their contract.
Also, with our new acquisition, we are probably not going to resign Rick Ankiel. And this salary still includes Duncan. If you take out all of those salaries for next year, we have a team salary of roughly $66million.
So, if we resign Holliday for say…$15million/year, and sign DeRosa for the same price tag he has now, that brings our total salary up to $81million, which is less than our current salary. We can fill some backup and bench spots with some "B" type players and still have around $5-10 million to work with. I’m not sure who else we would have to resign next year, but it seems to me that Holliday will fit perfectly in with the salary budget we have…at least for the next couple of years.
Anyone think this is how it will all work out? What others do we have to resign at the end of this year that are necessary?
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
y'know, if you want to start your own side-discussion
You could always post a Fanpost.
The comment sections are like the playoffs. A crapshoot.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
this is necessary to discuss whether or not we can re-sign Holliday…don’t you?
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but you're also fishing for comments
That’s what I was addressing.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely not...
Just trying to make a point that we will have space to sign Holliday plus the others we see as a necessity to re-sign.
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, okay
I must’ve read into posting it twice and titling it “One more time…to see if I get a response.”
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not only should it be discussed whether or not we can....
it should be discussed whether or not we should…..he’s already turned down a 4 year $72 million dollar offer from the Rockies, which is why they traded him
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the numbers he was posting then...
they were gigantic in Coors and Coors was likely the only place he could consistently post those numbers, so he was asking more to stay there. Other places his value is not that high.
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm...
you go ahead and tell Boras and Holliday that……
What’s worse is even if he does produce big numbers in Saint Louis, it makes it EVEN LESS likely that he’ll get re-signed.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they better nail those 2 draft picks....
no adam ottavino’s next year!!
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Next year
We are gonna draft Bryce Harper and some phenom high school pitcher named “Clark Kent Jr.” that nobody has ever heard of. He wears glasses but his talent is described as “other-wordly”. And he pitches better in day games.
Bet on it!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And trade them for an "impact bat" for protection when Holliday leaves
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 24, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't they the same guy?
I think Harper is Clark Jr., only after joining the witness protection program to protect himself from Lex Luthor.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bryce harper is so good
he wrote the april fools piece about sidd finch… seven years before he was born.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bryce Harper can make the first out at third base
and still end up scoring a run.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once
I saw Wieters and Harper taking BP off of Strasburg….at the same time.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 24, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harper Was Hitting Wieters' Foul Tips
…out of the park and 527 feet (on average).
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wieters foul tips go 528 feet....fair
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 24, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I once saw Wieters...
…hit a home run to dead CF and, because the ball had so much backspin, it backed over the wall, through the outfield, and ended up resting against the back of the mound.
True story.
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harper got so good at hitting...
…by hitting off of himself. Conversely, this is also how he got good at pitching. I’ll let you figure it out.
Bryce Harper is Dr. Manhattan.
Bryce Harper would be in the major leagues right now, but that would throw off the competitive balance of professional baseball.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's my question though:
If you had Superman on your team, and had to choose between pitcher or position player, which do you make him?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if he's allowed to fly, and I'm in the NL
I’m thinking he pitches, bats third, and covers the outfield on line drives. Batman’ll be pissed, but he’s never been a team player.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batman, naturally, would be the bat boy
Or would that be Robin?
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tentative lineup
1. Flash (CF)
2. Spider Man (LF)
3. Bonds (RF)
4. Superman (P)
5. Captain America (2B)
6. Iron Man (3B)
7. Mr. Fantastic (1B)
8. Thing ©
9. Nightcrawler (SS)
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thing is copyrighted
my wife is going to half to pay a lot of royalties!
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I see what you did there!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 24, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, you're
batting Superman 4th instead of Pujols?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 24, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batman would get his revenge
Given enough time to plan a trap for Superman of course. He’d put kryptonite into the rosin bag somehow, and have some sort of bat-speed increasing exoskeleton hidden underneath his uniform.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batman
“He’s not the outfielder we deserve, but he’s the outfielder we need.”
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends where he wants to play
Were it my decision, he’s pitching. He could probably throw like 138 MPH or something, so he’ll just throw gas by the hitter. Then he’ll go hit and drop bombs. Keep in mind that you don’t HAVE to use the DH in the AL.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Superman wouldn't need to rest his arm as much
Just get plenty of sunshine from Earth’s yellow sun. So he could play the field 4/5 of the time and pitch a complete game the other days.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
That $20MM per year salary will make Albert’s mind start to work. “If Matt Holliday is worth $20MM, I must be worth at least $30MM annually.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Albert should ...
be paid $30 million….but thats a totally different duscussion.
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re-sign
Not really. To re-sign him, we’re going to have to pay him market value, and we could have signed him in the off-season WITHOUT trading Wallace, so it really has no impact, other than we actually get MORE value (2 picks) by NOT signing him.
KJOK
by KJOK on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see what play logic and rationality have in this discussion
Plus the bigger question is whether Holliday will re-sign. The numbers may work out assuming he doesn’t try to squeeze us.
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A hint...
…if no one responds to your post, don’t get upset and repost it somewhere else trying to get someone to pay attention. In comment-sections like this the page refreshes often and there are side-discussions that people get involved in. If someone misses your comment, it’s nothing personal.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was not upset at all...
I apologize if it came across that way.
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Holliday will hurt his wrist on what, Monday?
Just trying to reverse-jinx it.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I Heard He Tripped Getting into the Lear and Cracked His Skull Open
Out for the season.
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I heard he wasn't paying attention and ran into the Walrus on his way out of town
Eighteen broken bones.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick will tell him to go see Carp about run support..... and look out for rug burns.
by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't talk about luggage
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It will play out like this...
…first he’s going to sit out because “it’s barking.”
Then he’ll go on the DL, retroactive of course.
Then he’ll come back early and clearly stink for a week or so.
He’ll go back to the DL and someone will say that he’s just not quite ready.
Then he’ll retire b/c of a severe injury and the Cards medical staff will look at each other with confused expressions on their faces.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This cracked me up...
+1, sir…
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's going to hurt derosa's wrist
introducing himself in the clubhouse.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sadly, I can actually see that happening
“I didn’t know my own strength!”
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Incredibly small sample size
but Holliday has an OPS+ of 185 at Busch II
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Busch III
but he doesn’t get to face our pitchers anymore.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nor would he want to anyone
Welley excepted.
by mojowo11 on Jul 24, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it's confusing...
Just call it New Busch…
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or just, you know, Busch.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 24, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony on Holliday
Tony La Russa on tonight’s lineup and Matt Holliday: “If he gets here, he plays.”
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 12:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They just asked LaRussa about Chris Duncan
And he said “Who?”
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Easiest Way to Sooth a Kid Who's Lost His Shiny Toy
…is to give him another shiny toy.
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this toy better
On the plus side here, at least the new toy is actually a very good all-around player. Plus, of course, he’s not broken.
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bit your tongue...
Plus, of course, he’s not broken.
Yet…
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no reason to expect failure
I too sense the strong potential for this to go down lake Mulder-Haren. However, there is no reason at all to expect that Holliday will break down — well other than karma perhaps — and position players are obviously less of an injury risk than pitchers. Especially less than pitchers the A’s choose to let go.
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
get the parachute ready
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly right golf hog....
people don’t realize how much we have comming off the books next year…i think its entirely possible we could resign Holliday…look at what MANNY got this year….who else is going to be after Holliday that he would wnat to play for? I doubt the Angles, Rangers, Yanks, Sox, Rays, (maybe phils or mets could) or any other perenial contender could pull off a Holliday signing in the offseason…a power RH hitting outfielder looks pretty good in our lineup this year and for years to come
by Dave0585 on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You forget that he's a Boras client.
You can’t base your decision on where he’ll sign based on the best place for him to play. He’ll go where the money takes him. Ask Jeff Weaver if Boras clients stay where they’re best suited.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you forget that
manny was a scott boras client and only got $20 mil garunteed…its a different economy and though he will be one of the most sought after FA…if we let him get there…it wont be a blockbuster $80 mil deal…yes it will take money but we had pujols, rolen, jimmy at the same time….we can take on another big contract like pujols and carps..i think 4 yr/$60 is prety fair starting point….what team is gonna go way over the top of that…realisticly.
by Dave0585 on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He still went where the money was offered, and ...
Manny didn’t have any takers cuz he’s an asshole. If he hadn’t walked out on the Red Sox, there would have been a bidding war like Boras expected. He simply underestimated the fact that owners have SOME backbone.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apples and oranges...
MannyBManny is perceived as a flake at best and a jerk at worst. He’s a poor OF’er and teams are starting to pay more attention to defense b/c it’s more easily measured now than before.
Holliday is a high character individual who is a pretty good hitter and a good fielder. Holliday is a more valuable commodity than Manny b/c of this. So yeah, Holliday is likley going to be the subject of a Boras-controlled bidding war. The Giants have a fair amount of coin and can’t hit. The Yankees have an aging and kind of crappy OF AND limitless resources. Hell even with their spending spree last season they had a fair amount of money left b/c a lot of guys came off the books. The Sawx may ditch Bay if they can get Holliday, who is a better all-around player. The Mets are a wealthy team that is in the process of exploding, so they may go after Holliday out of desperation.
Could we conceivably outbid these teams? It’s possible if Mo is willing to completely torch the barn for him. However you can pretty much kiss Albert Pujols goodbye, b/c though he’s probably willing to take a reasonable amount of coin he’s not going to take $6M per or something.
From where I sit, you can kiss Holliday good-bye.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but what if having Holliday
is merely a distraction to garner the draft picks and Jason Bay?
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yanks have plenty of cash
coming off the books. If Matt wants to pull a CC, NYY will sign him. If Boston can’t sign Bay, Red Sox will sign him. Look at the two picks combined with the playoffs as the positves in this deal. And use the cash to sign Shelby Miller.
by ubeddie on Jul 24, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So nice to know we're sacrificing our farm system
because our manager is a spoiled 8-year-old demanding things from the GM.
I want La Russa gone.
by craig3410 on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I kinda see it that way, too.
I hope they know more than I do on the subject. If this is just to placate a spoiled brat, I’ll be pretty aggravated. I still don’t think throwing in a pitching prospect was in our best interests.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jump to conclusions a little?
Not to interrupt this whine fest, but if you’ll notice we are in first place and have a pretty damn good roster finally.
Ludwick/Holliday/Rasmus in the OF and DeRosa/Ryan/Skip/Pujols on the IF.
Lugo and K Greene backing up. Glaus a possibility. This team is looking up.
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was Mo's call
Hold him accountable
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
like I posted above....
he’d better hit homeruns on both of these draft picks we MIGHT get
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love this trade if it were
for Roy Halladay….Matt Holliday…meh…he’s an improvement, but unless he’s going to sign for $12 million/year or less…not worth it. A ring changes everything though. I just don’t think this puts us over the top
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
i think the cubs are still better and will likely go on a ridiculous hot streak sometime soon.
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just laughed out loud...haha
(OT: I think it should be a man rule that men never use “LOL”)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
maybe im just paranoid
but they have all the pieces and are only a game back
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 24, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec..
a simple “haha” would suffice in all situations
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do like "LMFAO"
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is a little better...
LOL is just “cutesy” and emasculating
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
Chlorophyll? More like borophyll!
by jd is legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget
that it’s ok to use it when ridiculing someone.
by sdrone on Jul 24, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs and ridiculous hot streak just don't go together.
Especially, when there’s a pennant on the line. Having the best talent has never stopped them from folding before.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like our lineup
a lot more now than the Cubs.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially if somehow we get back Glaus and K Greene off the DL
It would be like we traded for 2 All – Stars
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know...it really is
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we get them back and also acquire a time machine, maybe...
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
by birdjam on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no way in hell the Cubs are still better
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Cubs don't trot out
Todd Wellemeyer and Lohse 40% of the time
by nmstar on Jul 24, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't compare Lohse to Wellemeyer
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wellemeyer's days are numbered...
and you speak of Lohse like he’s some piece of shit 4th starter. Kyle Lohse is better than you average 4th starter…
V, b.
by LukeMP1186 on Jul 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but is he better than Cubs' fourth?
That is what I was responding to…and yes he is certainly better than Todd although I hate his contract
by nmstar on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd do this package
for Matt KEMP, but not Matt Holliday.
by arch support on Jul 24, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Kemp is pretty awesome. And you know LA would like to replace Loney with Wallace. Does Kemp still bat 8th? I just don’t get that.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's up with loney anyway? how hard is it to find a better 1b than that?
i had thought LA matched up well with us for wallace for just that reason.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, me too. I dunno who we could have pried from them though.
[Obligatory fantasy baseball tie-in go!] I actually had Loney as a util guy on my team, and I drafted Kemp as an OF. Guess which one is still on my roster. Kemp is so good.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's like season tickets
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's terrell owen's new reality show, yes?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So
Anyone think it’d have been a good trade to deal Wallace and Mortensen for Huston Street, Greg Smith and Carlos Gonzalez?
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd laugh,
if this thought didn’t make sick to my stomach.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have done that deal last January in a heartbeat...
Now Smith is down and Gonzo seems less likely to develop…
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gonzo's potential was much > Wallace
though he’s had a rough year.
by dcfcblues on Jul 24, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damnit
I came here this morning with a bad feeling in my gut. The homepage to VEB was slow to load, and I was just staring at a white screen thinking, there better not be anything here that says we just made this trade. Then I saw for Mort too and it just got worse. I knew it was coming I just didn’t want the page to ever load.
As for the Ankiel situation, I see a very simple solution that could be very beneficial and almost make the trade worth:
Ankiel moves back to the rotation and replaces Wellemeyer.
And Craig comes up to replace him.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
by RasRoY on Jul 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If only...
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crap
Manning of FanGraphs says the A’s are big winners for acquiring Brett Wallace. Jon Heyman calls it a “great deal” for the A’s and Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus calls it an “outstanding” trade for Oakland.
jwilson
by taguchi on Jul 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I say its an outstanding deal for Oakland
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
by RasRoY on Jul 24, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah...
….they got themselves a hitter, one we shoulda kept.
Well, let’s hope Holliday’s bat doesn’t take a holiday, ’cause its a long time ’til next year.
:=8/
I hate Jason Marquis!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Jul 24, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the plus side...
Holliday is a really good baseball player. Like, really good. How good is our OF defense now, right?
And, Allen Craig now is our de facto “3B of the future.” Maybe he’ll finally get a shot.
This isn’t helping, screw positive thinking.
by IA Card on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
don't forget about freese
who’s rehabing at springfield tonight
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jul 24, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what are the corresponding Roster moves?
With Lugo and Holliday?
Barden is one. Who is the other?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If it's Thurston who is gone I fully support this trade
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 24, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hopefully...
PLEASE be Thurston…
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Walters
was sent down for Lugo.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well sort of
Walters was sent down for Barden who will be sent down for Lugo
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barden was up for Duncan
Walters down for Lugo.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bye bye little red riding peej
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah Good call
That makes sense
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably Barden...
or Stavinoha. Not sure how many OFers they want. We’ve got all kinds of flexibilty at this point.
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's gotta be
Thurston or Stavinoha….probably stavinoha
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is Mo's boy Hardcore Legend to tell him to not do this deal?
DAMNIT
I'm the guy that does his job, you must be the other guy.
by The_teague on Jul 24, 2009 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Silly Mo was feeling empowered.
Now, he doesn’t think he needs HL anymore.
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Negotiations
Dayton Moore couldn’t get into the ring fast enough with the chair.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
i said not to photoshop it...
ow my eyes
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, ...
does Billy Bean have pictures on ALL of the GMs in the league, or is it just some key ones?
by etp_stl on Jul 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Walt Jocketty and Mozeliak...
…allegedly from the same night.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so that's why the GMs have meetings
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Beane acquires OBP machine with big ass and questionable defense
In other news: Sun rises in East
by bgodar on Jul 24, 2009 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Let's just enjoy the year
I’m looking forward to watching Holliday in a Card’s uniform. I don’t care that they gave up a prospect to make this season more interesting, and I’m not concerned about payroll.
After all is said and done, we have a better lineup now.
by graffin on Jul 24, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Over/Under
50% chance of resigning Holliday and Pujols
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
by RasRoY on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
100,000 internet dollars on the over
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trekkie Reference
Two thousand Quatloos on the newcomer
SD
by Gibby45 on Jul 24, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you mean BOTH of them?
I’m taking the under. We can’t do both, IMO.
by chuckb on Jul 24, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Under
Unless one is willing to bite the bullet and take an uber-team friendly deal. That’s not happening IMO.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares about Clayton Mortensen & Shane Peterson?
Aren’t these guys a dime a dozen? And doesn’t trading both of them clear a spot on the 40-man roster for a player the organization likes better?
As far as Wallace goes, BP has a peak translation of his numbers this year at Memphis as .290/.348/.446…. Ok..
Does everyone hate this trade because you are “supposed” to hate trading prospects for players at the deadline? Isn’t it more important that we don’t waste Albert’s next few years, especially since 33 yrs old is the new 38 years old & he won’t hit like this forever?
Boomer.
by glamboomer on Jul 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How are we not wasting Albert's next few years
with 2 months of Matt Holliday?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I really don’t see this increasing the likelihood of re-signing Pujols.
Maybe they are hedging?
by thepainguy on Jul 24, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe because
The next 2 months of Matt Holliday makes the 2009 Cardinals a much better bet to win a title, especially when we didn’t give up anyone on the current roster to make it happen?
Boomer.
by glamboomer on Jul 24, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't assume things for other people
I think it’s fair to say that most of the people on this site are intimately familiar with wallace in particular’s statistics, and not traded j. prospect in general.
If you think it’s more important to maximize winning now, that’s fine—it’s a perfectly valid viewpoint. but putting ideas into the other side’s collective mouth is bad form.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well then lets win now.
fuck it. Pick up the phone, Mo, call Ricciardi, and get Colby on a plane to Toronto. Go for broke.
/kinda unfair extrapolation of what you’re saying, but I’m too incensed right now to be logical
by mattyp on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cheap pitchers
who can enter the rotation next year are a dime a dozen? Consider that right now Todd Wellemeyer is our 5th starter and we’re paying him something like $3 M and consider that Mortensen would earn about a tenth of that next year and be better and your question is answered!
by chuckb on Jul 24, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought we were paying Wellemeyer a little over $4MM?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that what Mitch Boggs is?
Or Jamie Garcia or PJ Walters?
Boomer.
by glamboomer on Jul 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They aren't interchangeable
Having four of those guys competing for our nos. 4 and 5 slots in the rotation makes the probability that two of them could do so satisfactorily higher. There’s value in that. Especially since their combined salaries would be less than Wellemeyer’s 2009 salary.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Law of large numbers
Or perhaps Law of Throwing a Bunch of Shit.
The more trials/attempts/players/shit you throw at a problem, the more likely something will work.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 24, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So... once again...
doesn’t this just mean that one of the above pitchers plus Ottavino or Hawksworth or Heane or Lynn fill into the spot for Mortensen?
Boomer.
by glamboomer on Jul 24, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
now who thinks that prospects are interchangeable?
hearne and ottavino are pretty low on our SP list.
the pitchers with the biggest upside in our rotation were garcia – who is injured — and then probably mortensen and boggs, probably in that order. given that our top prospect for next year’s rotation is coming off surgery, losing the next-best guy is kind of a biggish deal.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we'll just have to hope Garcia bounces back like Carp.
(2009 version)
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not the 2006, 2007, 2008 versions?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 24, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe 2006
How did the pig corner the breakfast market?
by STLRegalia on Jul 24, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's clear...
that Mort would be better. He might be, he might not. And anyway isn’t Boggs ahead of him? And a championship contender really can’t have more than one of Mort/Boggs/Welly in the rotation.
by guayzimi on Jul 24, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nonononononono!
The real problem with this trade is that Wallace could have contributed positively to our offense right now — especially since we need production from 3B as well as LF — and also freed up the cash to sign someone like Holliday as a free agent this winter. So we gave up a ton to get an improvement for just two months. Holliday over Wallace this year represents a significant but not overwhelming improvement. Wallace + Mortensen cheap over the next six years are so incredibly more valuable than Holliday at free agent market salary that this trade is a huge loser unless we win the world series this year. And we’re still certainly not the favorites to win the world series, or even to win the pennant.
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would Wallace's contribution..
be any greater than even someone like Allen Craig’s would be this season?
Would it be fair to assume that there is the possibility that Holiday’s contributions for just the next two months may be greater than those of Wallace / Mortensen over the next 4 years?
And doesn’t getting the $1.5M back raise the likelihood of signing a Shelby Miller, someone who projects to be much more than Clay Mortensen?
by glamboomer on Jul 24, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This season? Probably not
Over the next four years, it is highly likely that their combined WS will be substantially more than what Holliday gives us in 2 months, even if their playing was limited.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jul 24, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure, this is all about marginal value
I agree that contributions over the next two months should be weighted more than strictly the stats show, given that we have a good chance to make the playoffs. However, this trade does not make us the favorite to win either the pennant or the world series, so I think it’s not worthwhile for us to sacrifice the future for it.
In other words, having Wallace + Mortensen instead of Holliday actually makes us more likely to win the world series — just perhaps next year or the year after instead of this year. So we’ve sacrificed our best chance of ultimate success over the long-term option for immediate gratification. That’s a fail.
As for Allen Craig, I don’t understand why he isn’t in the lineup RIGHT NOW, given our pathetic bench and glaring vulnerability to left-handed pitching. I understand that defense is a problem, but why exactly do we accept sub-par defense from some players (Duncan, Miles, Thurston, etc.) while making it a huge barrier to others?
by apack on Jul 24, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question...
And this is pretty lame, I know, but if Holliday does play tonight, does he wear a blank jersey? Do we already have him one printed up? If so, how the heck does that work?
Go Cards!
GolfHog44
by golfhog44 on Jul 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs