Chris Duncan traded for Julio Lugo
by DanUpBaby on Jul 22, 2009 6:18 PM EDT
Email
PrintIt's been a weird day. Our very own Hardcore Legend broke this news this morning, only to see it apparently contradicted by Duncan's demotion to Memphis. But after some questions, an apparent La Russa/Mozeliak struggle, and several hours, it's been reconfirmed; here's the P-D link. Bosox on the hook for the remainder of Lugo's enormous contract.
First: Duncan's been a mess for two years now but it's a shame to see his Cardinals tenure end like this. In 2006 and 2007, with the team transitioning out of its MV3 offense and into... well, whatever this is, Duncan was a valuable and completely unexpected second banana. It's safe to say that without him completely outplaying his offensive projections in 2006 that the Cardinals would not have survived the tailspin second half with even an over-.500 record. Without him there wouldn't be a blog entitled What's Chris Duncan Dry-Humping This Week?, if for no other reason than there would be no trophy on which to grind. He played out of position, he battled the preconceptions that come with playing for your dad, and for two years he did it really well.
That said, he's redundant on this team, already reliant on another left-handed lottery ticket—one more recently successful—to pick up their stagnant outfield production. And it's obvious, given the circumstances surrounding this trade, that St. Louis was no longer the right place for him anyway.
Julio Lugo has been a mess since 2006, and according to Fangraphs and Red Sox fans everywhere his defense has taken a nosedive in the last year. But with the Red Sox picking up the tab it's prudent for the Cardinals to shift some low-odds upside from the outfield to the still-nebulous left side of the infield.
UPDATE: Another PTBNL to worry about. Hat tip to azru, who mentioned it in the ground zero fanpost.
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Lugo's OBP this year is .350
That’s valuable for this team
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
he can't field a lick since knee surgery
2B he might be passable, but he’s been a disaster at SS. This is trading crud for crud.
godfather of futureredbirds.net
I don't think they'd consider him at SS
unless Ryan is hurt midgame. I see him a PH (which we need badly) and a 2B platoon with Skip.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
What about 3rd?
Honestly I don’t see TLR moving Skippy out to LF. Lugo plays second only in a platoon role IMO.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
several platoons...
… Lugo/Schu at 2nd, DeRosa/Ank in LF (with Lugo or Ryan at 3B).
there are a lot of movable pieces.
which probably means that Thurston plays every day.
Lugo
has a very good arm, but very little range since his quadriceps (I think?) injury. 3B might be a good fit. Basically, he’s the right-hand side of a platoon somewhere, which makes him marginally more use than duncan.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 6:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Why would we EVER
send a PTBNL too? I understand the whole Duncan thing. One washed up, maybe-he-can-turn-it-around player for another. But honestly, adding another player? Julio Lugo is not going to help us that much . . . at all. If anything he’s only going to hurt because it’s an excuse for Ryan to not start.
Argh. Annoying.
On with the (good) youth movement!
First, we get Lugo for free for 2 seasons
Second, it is probably a player that is in the 40 man roster/Rule 5 crunch or Khalil Greene and it won’t hurt us too much.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Because BOS is eating a TON of money on this deal
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
so what? it's not like they are hurting for cash
i hope it’s KBot, but i doubt MO would do that to the guy. if he can’t play in the STL, there’s no way in hell he can play in bean town.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
No but the Cardinals may not have been the only team in the hunt
Unless this turns out to be a big name PTBNL (unlikely) then it’s nothing to get upset over.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
it also provides a little cover to the FO in Boston to make this not look like a complete
loss. sometimes, just having bodies to point to can distract fans that aren’t well tuned in.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
oh i'm not upset AZ
just curious is all
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
Really...
So if he clears waivers and the BoSox get nothing in return (what usually happens when a player is DFA’d) that’s worse than getting at least Duncan in return? There was no way that Boston was going to get out of paying Lugo’s salary, but I wouldn’t say the extra player has anything to do with saving face. The PTBNL is simply the extar piece it took to beat out the Mets or some other team.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
boston has one of the best farms in the ML.
i’m sure they care almost nothing for a C-level prospect. this is a face-saving, palate-cleansing move of a totally unpopular and ineffective player, with a minor upside potential in the possibility that dunc gets better.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
my thinking is
our low-ceiling prospects (guys on the 40-man like Shane Robinson etc) will never get a sniff of MLB in that system, so the ptbnl might be a very low-level minor league guy with a bit of upside. But I could always be completely wrong! Either way, I doubt it’s anything substantial.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 6:16 AM EDT up reply actions
the strategic impact of that is that it doesn't strangle money away
from moz. if we had to eat some of lugo’s $, it would hamper our financial flexibility for any potential moves over the rest of the season. i like this aspect of the deal. if its a C level prospect, that’s okay by my standard.
"...and pujols has given st louis the lead"
not to mention that Duncan...
was making more than the league minimum ($680K?). This deal saves us almost as much money as we’ll be spending on Lugo for 1.4 seasons.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
PTBNL
My understanding is that it is “cash considerations” or a PTBNL…which means if there is a PTBNL it won’t be any sort of a prospect. D.GOOCH
-- GOOCH
from the mlb-stlcards mothership.
The Cardinals acquired shortstop Julio Lugo and cash considerations from the Red Sox for outfielder Chris Duncan and a player to be named later or cash considerations.
So, we get cash and lugo, they get duncan and either money or a ptnbl.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I think that's almost always the case
The picking team can just choose some nominal amount if all of the choices turn out to be crap.
Lugo is not a bad player to have around
He can play multiple positions and is a good hitter. I hope that Ryan is the starting shortstop, but Lugo is mighty fine back up.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
No he hasn't
He was worth .8 WAR in each of the 2 previous seasons (one was a partial season), and his awful WAR this year is based off of a -46.3 UZR/150. You of all people should know not to take UZR seriously in such a small sample size. He’s an average hitter, and looks capable of playing average defense at short as well. I don’t see what’s not to like.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i wasn't looking at WAR...
… i was looking at offensive RAR, which has been negative each season since 2006.
the only reason why his WARs have been positive is because of the positional adjustment, which (barely) bumped him into positive territory. he has been below replacement offensively every year since moving to Boston.
Except for this year
And ZIPS projects him to be an average hitter.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
this year...
… Lugo has 100 ABs and a .333 BABIP, which has his OPS up to a whopping .719. this year, he’s still been negative in offensive RAR.
he does take some BBs, but he hasn’t slugged above .350 since 2006. moving forward, he’s probably a .680-.700 OPS guy, which is what Duncan was.
he’s poor at defense and unlikely to improve since he’s 34, but at least he’s poor at premium positions, will take a walk, and can hit lefties. so it’s not a terrible trade. but i don’t think we should expect too much from him. he’s basically what Brendan Ryan would be if Ryan was a poor fielder.
His career BABIP is .317, I don't think we have to worry about regression that much
Also, before his first two years with Boston, he was consistently an an average to above average offensive performer. I agree with the ZIPS projection. Also, with the exception of this year, he’s been an average defender for his entire career. I think it is entirely possible that he will be a productive player going forward.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
i think it's possible too...
… a .680 – .700 OPS MIF can be a valuable player, especially if his defense is close to average. and i don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation. but i wouldn’t expect him to light the world on fire or anything.
I know
But considering he’s replacing Thurston/Barden on the roster, it should net us a couple of runs.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
We need players who hit well against lefties
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 22, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree...
… i was merely noting that he has not been a “good hitter” (as viva said) for several years. fine in a platoon, and maybe even an upgrade over Duncan (assuming that Skip moves to LF and maintains his current OPS which isn’t going to happen because Ankiel will be out there most days), but if Lugo was a decent player then the BoSox — a team without a SS — wouldn’t’ve DFA’d him.
Lugo was universally hated by the fans
Also, Jed Lowrie just came back.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
OT: Marquis missing start because he blistered his widdle finger
It’s his middle finger.
[hides from cow]
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I read that it's a PTBNL or cash
still looking for link. will post it when i find it.
....my quick smells like french toast...
via the boston herald
The Red Sox today officially closed the book on the Julio Lugo era, trading the once promising shortstop to the St. Louis Cardinals for outfielder Chris Duncan and a player to be named later (or cash considerations).
....my quick smells like french toast...
How I choose to remember him
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 22, 2009 6:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This and along with his abominable defense is how I choose to remember him...
by from First to Third on Jul 22, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The Duncan Saga...
Some thoughts on the end of the Duncan era
1) I (+1) the sentiment expressed in the top of the thread. Duncan earned the nick name “Slam Dunc” both in some nice Spring Trainings and in 2006 and the first part of 2007. He looked alot like a true slugger in the making. But that he has had a serious set back in his career doesn’t change the fact he was a valuable hitter for this team…and when it needed one the most.
2) To the Duncan haters: I remember the Duncan haters (i.e. the Faction) from 2006. The nonsense about nepotism and the like. They ignored the reality of his production. They continued to harp and ridicule his defensive lapses and ineptness, despite the fact he was a productive player. Duncan’s failure as a hitter, either do to injury or an inability to recover the magic post-injury, wasn’t what they were whining about then. This isn’t proof of their case against Duncan, as their case against Duncan was nothing but Tony-hating transfered to a young player undeserving of their wrath from the beginning. True fans cheered Duncan when he was doing well for the team, hoped for him when he wasn’t, and finally, wish him well now that he is gone.
3) That said, Duncan played way too much for this team this season, after he had long proved he simply can. not. drive. the. ball. His power has been absent, except a brief binge at the begining of the season. I don’t know why Tony stuck with him…though one good and bad thing about Tony is that he is loyal to the players who show loyalty to him. I can’t help but think there was quite a bit of ‘wanting’ in the relectuance to reduce Duncan’s PT, and ultimately to make the decision that needed to be made. The simple fact of the matter is that Duncan is a LH OF in an organization replete with LH hitting and OF prospects…and he stood in the way for too long.
4) And finally, I wonder what this is going to mean for the future of Tony LaRussa. Last night he defends Chris…today Chris is traded to Boston. There’s no question about who made that deicsion…and that the manager opposed it. Does this signal the end of the Tony LaRussa era in St. Louis? And if so, what of his prodigy, Albert Pujols?
-- GOOCH
+1
Great summary, right on the money.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
No Tony, 7 more years of Pujols
is just as real a scenario
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
If tony leaves, now is the best time
That way Pujols can clearly be see that we can win just as much or more without Tony as we did with him.
If...
we can win without him. Tony is a heck of a manager, as much as he may hack me off time and time again. Hall of Fame managers don’t just fall off of trees.
-- GOOCH
But you know, it's
amazing how many managers not named Tony LaRussa have won the World Series in the last 30 years.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 22, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I guess those 8 of the last 9 WS winners that did it without Tony or Pujols
didn’t really win ?
I find it a little far fetched to say that Albert would stay only if Tony were here
If it’s all about friendships, then wouldn’t Yadi be a major sticking point for Albert? And what manager of Albert Pujols wouldn’t become his good friend?
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 22, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
Yadier is who I’m worried about. I don’t want to break up that tandem on the field, either. They could really set some records.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I know you didn't say that exactly
And I’m really just saying that I don’t think Tony’s job status will be what makes or breaks Albert’s decision to stay or go.
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 22, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
i would say
Mo would leave before Tony or big Al goes….
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
Considering how little of a threat
his bat represents in this year coming off surgery, I was impressed with how well he maintained plate discipline and managed a decent number of walks.
I had no idea he had an option remaining and am pretty much stunned that they didn’t just choose to let him rehab and fix his swing in Memphis. It’s hard for me to root for the Sawx, but I’ll be rooting for Chris Duncan if he makes it back up with them. If not, I hope we sign him as a minor league FA after this season, in which case we’d have him AND Lugo next year for the minimum or close to it.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
context link
Because I’ll probably be searching this post years from now. 7/21 fanpost.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
How will that help?
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
...like I said
It’ll help me. Fanposts do not travel along with the main blog posts. Ignore it.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Why not make a word document with all the links you want and save it on a flash drive made just for your links?
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
uh, because it's easier to click one link for this specific event?
…
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I could also
Open a delicious tag for it, tag it on firefox, put in my bookmarks, publish it to a website, create a fanshot with all the links, or put the URLs in a notepad file.
This took thirty seconds, and it’ll take me even less time years from now when I’m reading up on this happening.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Whatever floats your boat
flash drive just seems easier to me
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
that's nice.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think this is all my doing
Mo reads VEB, he sees that I am disappointed in him, he makes this move
Bernie reads VEB, he reads my plea for him to be a better journalist, his work today is quality stuff.
If you all want ot send cash my way, my email is right there after you click my name
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 22, 2009 6:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
*cough*
what’s that about ankiel matty?
by from First to Third on Jul 22, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
great
We’re gonna be drunk with power, now.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
if something happens to thurston, you know who to pat on the back
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
If Lugo's knee is what is bothering him
and we have him for next year, isn’t it reasonable to think that he can get it fixed in the off-season and be ready to play next spring?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions
To be fair
Didn’t Kennedy have a knee problem and his defense improve dramatically after the surgery?
His bat still blew chunks but his defense did get better.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The Secret Weapon will just tell him he is a disgrace to the Domincan Republic
And he will be good as new
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Jose's Puerto Rican
Almost commented that, too.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Yeah, ...
I thought about that after I posted it. I know that’s what he’s referencing, but I understand Alxfritz’s comment after I thought about it.
credit to alxfritz for being quicker than the rest of us
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think it would make more sense for him to try to rehab it
he can have surgery right before spring training if that doesn’t work out
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 22, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wish I had Photoshop
I have an idea to photoshop Wally (the Red Sox’ mascot) into the place of a certain WS trophy. If anyone has some spare time, I will offer up a free rec!
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
I have been wanting to Photoshop Dunc
With the image of Bruce Banner(Incredible Hulk) walking down the street with the backpack of his shoulder hitch hiking
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the best I can do on short notice
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 22, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh
Goatse
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 22, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
What about playing left field?
or moving Skip to left and having him play 2B?
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Just say no to 33 year old
short shots in the outfield. And I think it is completely unfair to skip to ask him to move back to the outfielder after how hard he has worked to move to 2nd base on a moment notice…
Well where do you put Lugo then?
You can’t sit Ryan or Schumaker after there performances. Possibly third and DeRosa in left. But I wouldn’t tell Tony to say no to a 33 year old shortstop in the outfield.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
DeRosa is a very good outfielder, and Lugo would likely be an above average third basemen
That sounds just dandy to me.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
i dunno
-40 or so at SS translates to +anything at 3B?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Are you seriously quoting his UZR/150 for 100 plate appearances this year?
He has a history of being a roughly average defender at short, meaning he would likely be above average at third.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
i dunno
i’m at work and too busy to research. i was going off what you(?) said
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
maybe it wasn't you
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
No, but ...
the reports have been pretty clear that he has been awful in the field since returning from knee surgery. It’s the reason the Red Sox are getting rid of him. He could get better as he gets healthier, but all reports have indicated that his fielding has been awful. If you don’t trust the stats, then you have to trust the scouting information being reported.
denied
jed lowrie is back off the DL, and was a better fielder/hitter then lugo this year…not to mention Boston hates anyone named Julio and Lugo. and loves quirky names like Jed, Nomar, Youkilis, etc….
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
giving LaRussa a player like Lugo
is like giving a child a box of legos… they will soon be all over the place. I expected nothing in return for Duncan (who I liked, but I more than agree it was time for him to go), but I see no merit in having Lugo, even for ‘free.’
I fear Lugo will NOT be anything like the ’08 Floppy; he will be like the ’07 Miguel Cairo, taking away innings from the likes of Wallace, T. Greene etc
When Wallace gets the call he will probably be a definite everyday player
and I doubt a player like Lugo will take away that significant of playing time from him. I don’t think Tyler Greene will have much playing time to take next year.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
T Greene had
his shot played decent defense in the games I saw of him, but the hitting was no better then thurston/barden. He had flashes but needs to work it out at a lower level. Lugo is batting .284 since when is that bad on a team with the likes of thurston/barden hitting like what a combined .220? his OBP is .350 better then thurston/barden and better then Dunc’s. not to mention he is hitting .333 against lefties. as much as i hate to look at stats and throw them in, in an arguement this last comment deserves it. Wallace will get a look possibly with september call ups, and next spring why rush a prospect that has quite a bit of upside
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
This year he'll get more playing time than Wallace
But next year Wallace will play more than him. And I’m not saying T Greene won’t straighten things out, but as it stands right now, we’ve got 2 better options than him in the middle infield in Ryan and Schumaker.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Gotta love seeing Chris Duncan
as a trending topic on Twitter lol
....my quick smells like french toast...
i didn't know you worked there
are you related to charlie?
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
I just started a couple of days ago
Who’s Charlie?
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
nice shout-out to your homies
Not knowing what the Sox get out of this is oddly nerve-wracking. Unless they really did want to get rid of Lugo that badly.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
After last night, I really wanted to skip watching tonight's game
I am screwed now, I have to at least watch the pre-game.
Way to go Mo!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
hi, guys in the truck
(it doesn’t get old.)
((I’m waiting for them to answer me, Matrix-style.))
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think this is better for everyone
Chris Duncan especially. Kudos to Mo for being a shrewd Gm and getting BoSox to foot the bill
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 22, 2009 6:54 PM EDT reply actions
well . . .
Since they had DFA’d Lugo, they had accepted the likely conclusion of paying him not to play for the Sox.
by schlafly seasonal on Jul 22, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Boston still had to agree to pay the contract before he made the deal, no?
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 22, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
Anyone else get the feeling
that things are gonna get real ugly between Tony and Mozeliak?
The Redbirds are of the highest priority to me... As it should be
We can only hope.
Get out the popcorn.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 22, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
it is kinda sad
but it really should have been done a while ago imo
The Redbirds are of the highest priority to me... As it should be
Are you Terrell Owens/
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
prolly
I have always had the feeling that Tony is not the easiest person to get along with cus he is always so freaking intense
The Redbirds are of the highest priority to me... As it should be
Actually
I wouldn’t mind Oquendo as manager and Matheny as pitching coach. And then Larry Walker could coach third. Is Walker still involved with the Cards? I know he was for a little bit but I don’t know what he’s up to nowadays.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Troy Glaus is not in the lineup in Game 1
of the Memphis game. Interesting.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 7:20 PM EDT reply actions
holy fucking shit
TWFS
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
that's what franklin said?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I think we need a new VEB acronym
HFS
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 22, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
meh
never expected to see him a cardinal uniform the season
i’m really surprised we saw him in a redbird uni
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Shit. Go figure.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 22, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Hm...
So Lugo has been good against lefties exclusively this year.
Khalil has done much better against righties this season.
If Greene becomes useful this season, that could be a decent 3B platoon.
Better than Barden/Thurston.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Could Lugo be this year's Floppy?
Also, he needs a nickname.
by notmorganfreeman on Jul 22, 2009 7:30 PM EDT reply actions
maybe because of his ability to hit LHP late in the game....
LOOG-go?
I’ll get my coat…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 6:38 AM EDT up reply actions
pre-game showtime
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
"even Dave Duncan [was] under the impression that Chris Duncan was traded to the Boston Red Sox"
Then the rest of the events of the morning. So the players were in the know last night-ish.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
the Cat says mixed emotions from dad
“[Dave Duncan] did kind of getting on board with the idea of Chris … getting a new start.”
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
apparently he isn't....
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 6:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Tony looks pisssed
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
what else is new?
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 22, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
being diplomatic, for Tony
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
WE LANDED ON THE MOON
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
Wow, Tony is gritting his teeth about this
Looks like he’s none too pleased
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
this is one of his shortcomings for sure
he doesnt always have the interest of what is best for the team in mind
The Redbirds are of the highest priority to me... As it should be
then again
I understand there is a human element to the whole thing that is hard to deal with
The Redbirds are of the highest priority to me... As it should be
I can honestly say that I'm both saddened and relieved about Duncan being traded.
At first I felt kicked in the gut…. It really reminded me of the scene in “The Big Lebowski” when The Dude’s car is set on fire… and he says… “We’ll they finally did it… the killed my fucking car”
Then another metaphor came to my mind about the whole thing…. I feel now like you would feel about a relative who has been battling a terminal illness for a long painful time… You are sad by their loss, but happy that they are .now in a better place.
Sorry if that’s too cryptic
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 22, 2009 7:37 PM EDT reply actions
I do feel sad about it
but this cannot be a distraction for the team. It is just not worth it
The Redbirds are of the highest priority to me... As it should be
I totally understand that Duncan seemed to be playing hurt (at least thats what it seemed to me)
but i still always thought that he was a good player when healthy… in spite of his poor fielding
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 22, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
in the long run
this is probably a bad trade, but Chris needs to get healthy, and running him out there every day isn’t going to do it. I still ageree with whichever VEB’er it was that thought it would be in Dunc’s best interest if he sat out this entire season to heal that neck properly
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
this is also a kick in the ass to me personally
I now have both a Tino Martinez (i bought it when they first got him) and a chris duncan (given to me by my grandmother) t-shirt as well as an eckstein jersey…. Thankfully I still have the pujols and tommy herr jerseys to round it out though
glad that I didn’t get the reggie sanders shirt that i wanted
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 22, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I am still waiting for my B-day for my Tommy Herr jersey
until then my Petini jersey will have to do
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
my parents got me a power blue herr jersey for christmas last year
if anybody was at the mini-homerun derby at around 2 the saturday of the ASG fanfest then they saw it…. I hit like 6 bombs but missed the gold ball :(
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 22, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
bought an
ankiel jersey after his breakout, and hoping he doesnt get traded, i absolutely hate buying jerseys of players that get traded after i buy the jersey…i usually stick to personalized
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
i know....
i have a bad feeling about it too
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 22, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
or wellemeyer?
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 22, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
i have
an ank jersey
no regrets
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
pawtucket is a better place?
more praise than has been heaped on rhode island in a long time, sir.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
no but they (boston fans) haven't yet developed a festering hatred for him
better in the sense that he is relatively unknown to them
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 22, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
it was a joke at the expense of the fine people of pawtucket.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
GODDAMN YOU
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 6:40 AM EDT up reply actions
no, this is nothing like losing a relative
have lost my dad to als, i can speak from experience.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
im really sorry if i offended you
it really wasn’t meant as a literal comparison to losing somebody from a terminal illness… it was in poor taste
SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426
by FredbirdisaDork on Jul 22, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Franklin talking to Shannon
They got in at 1:30 a.m. from Chicago before the ASG.
(He sucks.)
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Thinking back on it
I bet Tony new Chris was gone as soon as Lugo cleared wavers before he went off on the Media about Duncan a few days ago.
Which makes him even more vindictive
calling out the fans and such, while on the road, where the fans weren’t booing him.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe he checked twitter.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Maybe TLR knew...
that Duncan was going to be traded, and was trying to increase his trade value in front of the press like he has done so many times before with Scott Rolen. /s
Anyone know if shelby duncan is still in the yankees system?
Could the brothers have some epic yankees/red sox slug fests in their future?
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 22, 2009 7:48 PM EDT reply actions
yes. at aaa.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Shelley Duncan is...
on the Yankees AAA team. I can’t wait for a September call-up for both of the Duncan’s, a major fight breaks out and Shelley and Chris end up beating each other up. It would make their parents so proud…
oh, weak...
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 6:41 AM EDT up reply actions
me either
i guess i;m just gonna have to circumvent the mlb.tv blackout
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Go get Adam Dunn!!
Ok, so somewhat off-topic (well at least on the topic of trades) and I know it was dealt with in today’s front page post, but for the love of god, it sounds like the Nats will practically give Dunn away. If that’s true, I hope that the Nats scout that attended the Memphis game the other night saw what he wanted to see (and not what or WHO, we didn’t want to see). And don’t talk to me about his defense. Yes, it’s Duncan-esque, but his hitting and walk rate are all him.
Think of the lineup next year:
Rasmus – CF
Dunn – LF
Pujols – 1B
Ludwick – RF
Glaus – 3B
Derosa – 2B
Molina – C
Pitcher
Ryan – SS
Yes, Glaus is a question mark, and Skip fans will be bummed, but jesus can you imagine the run production? And other than Dunn, it’s pretty solid defensively.
There's several things probably wrong with that lineup
First off, we will not have Glaus as you kind of pointed out. We will most likely have Wallace at third.
Secondly, we might not have DeRosa either. If he keeps his Houston hitting going, he could be a type A.
Thirdly, the Dunn acquisition would most likely be to protect Pujols. So Dunn would bat 4th not 2nd. So the lineup in my mind would look like this:
Schumaker- 2B
Rasmus- CF
Pujols- 1B
Dunn-LF
Ludwick- RF
Wallace- 3B
Molina- C
Pitcher-P
Ryan- SS
It’s actually tough to put that lineup in order. I don’t really like Rasmus in the 2 hole, because he can’t steal there. So maybe Wallace in the 2-hole. I would even consider Molina in the 2 hole. Ludwick could possibly work. And I guess even Dunn might work. That would be an interesting lineup for Tony or future manager to make up. Especially if we re-sign DeRosa. I really hope we get Dunn. It’s nice to have to many players to put in a lineup that you don’t know how to make up the lineup. Don’t forget Darryl Jones could be ready next season as well.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Respectfully disagree
First off, Dunn’s walk rate of 100+/year makes him perfect to hit in front of Pujols (I’ve always believed who hits in front of Pujols is more important than who hits behind him). Not too mention, Dunn’s going to see more pitches to hit than he has since the first season he hit 30+ home runs.
No reason you can’t have Derosa and Glaus (although the later’s health is the uncontrollable factor there.
But reasonable minds can disagree.
I said Dunn might work in the 2-hole but its hard to finally acquire a big name bat like that
and no having him protect Pujols. Although having Dunn in front of Albert he could give Bonds a good run at his single season HR record*. That would be great if Wallace can prove to be a reliable power bat. But I actually think putting Wallace in the 2-hole would be better for him and better overall for the Cardinals. Dunn still gets some protection for Luddy. We have the potential to have another 20+ HR guy on the team with Wallace seeing that many fastballs. And Rasmus could finally see some bases. With the lineup I said earlier and switching Rasmus and Wallace we could have a 20+ HR for Wallace and Rasmus Dunn Pujols and Ludwick although any of the 5 may be able to get to 30 or even 40 HRs. Rasmus may even become a 30-30 guy from the 6-hole.
And the reason we can’t have DeRosa and Glaus. First of all, I’m not sure I want to pay Glaus any significant amount of money. And DeRosa will have a pay increase. So money is the reason for not having DeRosa and Glaus.
But its hard to Dunn as a Cardinal. I can’t remember a time when I saw a Cardinal player have the shift on everytime.
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
Sad to see him go.....
But as has been said, he is redundant on this team, and probably could use the fresh start. I have alot of fond memories of Duncan in STL. Wish him the best out east.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
Bizarro World
I am on the road, so I come back from dinner, turn on the WWL and fire up VEB.
I literally at the same instance see “Chris Duncan Traded for Julio Lugo” at the exact same time the talking head utters the phrase, “Rockies ace Jason Marquis”.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
Dad speaks
“The way I look at it is he was traded for a player who had very little (leverage) … he was designated for assignment,” Duncan said. "It’s highly unusual for a major-league roster player to be traded for somebody like that. So somebody wanted to get him out of the organization, and they’ve accomplished what they wanted to accomplish.
“Either that or we don’t have anybody in the minor leagues that they wanted for (Lugo). One or the other.”
Well, at least he's not bitter, huh?
This team was burdened with two flailing LH OFs and no backup SS. Now they have one flailing LH OF and a backup MIF. I guess it was clearly a personal thing against the Duncans, though.
Just looking at the comment, taken by itself, you can almost pass it off as a dad being a dad. If it were the last thing you heard from him about it, I don’t think it would be all that big a deal. Completely understandable even. Most dads would feel similarly, even if they didn’t say it.
The problem is the whole subtext. The leaked comments ripping on the farm system, even when it works against the interest of the club. Even when they are trying to make deals. The complete dysfunction between the guys wearing the uniforms and the ones wearing the suits. Something that is always right around the surface, but manages to rear its head most clearly at the most unfortunate times.
Given all that stuff, this comment seems more illuminating than it would otherwise. We get in print something we all have known is an issue. It’s only a PG version, but you can see the problems. You can see that having Chris Duncan here was dangerous even when he was hitting the ball and playing reasonably well. You can see how poisonous the situation can get when he isn’t playing well. It was clearly all igniting fast here, and I think Mo had to do this. We couldn’t afford to have this continue for a number of reasons, both on and off the field.
The thing about it is that Chris Duncan himself, as far as I can tell, never made the situation any worse than it needed to be. I don’t pretend to know these guys personally, but my sense is that he never bitched and never felt entitled. He was professional. It’s very possible, even likely, that the situation would have been much worse much faster with most people. That’s to his credit. I hope he gets the bat going again. The AL was always a more natural fit for him.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 23, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Chris Duncan, as a human being
seems a pretty good guy. He always “played a hard nine” and never seemed to bitch or moan about his treatment or the fan’s (lately rather bad) opinion of him. I warmed to the guy, but he needed to be moved.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 6:44 AM EDT up reply actions
he can't get to the team quick enough
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
sig change required I think :-)
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 6:44 AM EDT up reply actions
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