Tony Calls Out The Starting Shortstop and The Fans
by Alxfritz on Jul 21, 2009 9:58 PM EDT
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PrintRegarding the fans being "too hard" on Chris Duncan, esp. re: after his game ending PA last night, Via Leach:
"Maybe it had something to do with the fact that Valverde, [lefties are] hitting .300 versus .140 [for righties]. And did Ryan have a particularly good day? How can people ask? What's the question there? A guy who could hit a two-run homer versus Brendan doing what? Looking futile again?
"Did anybody watch Brendan's at-bats?
"Chris is a ... whipping boy. I'm so tired of the unfairness with Chris Duncan, it makes me want to vomit. You can tell anybody ... that he's getting treated unfairly. It makes me want to vomit. That's why I get upset as soon as he gets mentioned.
"They've got a great reputation in our town, but it's not a perfect reputation.
"It's a pretty clear difference [for Valverde between right- and left-handed hitters]. Plus Chris, even when he struggles, he's one of our better pinch-hitters.
"This guy is treated unfairly. For fans that have the reputation that they have, that they deserve, they do have a couple quirks that are not fair. And he's one of them.
"What's so ridiculous is, if you watch Brendan, Brendan had no chance yesterday for some reason. So he's going to do better in that at-bat? That's ridiculous if you think about it. I think it's ridiculous. And it has to do with the guy that pinch-hit. It's really a black eye for some of our fans that are not objective about him for whatever reason. I'm not sure what it is. I can't figure it out."
What is unfair, Tony, is putting in a guy who is a below replacement level player in the final at bat of the game, when you admit he is in a position to fail, and then being upset when he fails.
And, to be clear, nobody is personally mad at Chris Duncan. Most are mad at Johnny Mo for having him on the 25 man roster and not down in Memphis, others are mad that Tony La Russa continuously puts him on the field or, in this particular instance, in a high leverage situation, when it is clear t oeveryone that he is either still struggling from his fucking radical spine surgery and shouldn't be playing, or can just no longer hit.
I don't mind Tony having a virtual lifetime contract with the Cardinals, but I sure as shit mind him not being held accountable to his horrible in game decisions and the organization's ridiculous roster management (Hey, PJ Walters is still on the team!). If his only answer to criticism is to berate the fans, press, and well performing players to sacrifice one of the worst baseball players this year, so fucking be it.
But I wish one member of the Saint Louis press would remind him how terribly his teams have performed down the stretch over the last few years and that batting one of the worst OBP men on the team second, randomly sitting his best OFer, and sticking by one of the worst starters in the Major Leagues while there is an eight man bullpen during the first important series of the second half does not exactly put the team on sound footing going towards the pennant drive.
Or, they could just say:
Mr. La Russa, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I said "good day."
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This bothered me tremendously when I read it
Look, Tony…people are fair to Chris. He’s not that good anymore and, well, fans don’t feel he should play much. Treating someone fairly is not the same as patting someone’s ass when they stink, which is apparently what La Russa has decided to do with his damn nephew. What are fans supposed to do? Be happy for Little Chrissy because he is trying hard and having fun?
Furthermore, the anger and vitriol isn’t directed at Chris Duncan…it’s directed at YOU and at JOHN MOZELIAK who insist on playing/keeping on the roster someone who can’t field, is only an okay baserunner, and can’t seem to hit anymore beyond the ability to draw walks. THAT is why people are upset.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 21, 2009 10:03 PM EDT reply actions
Wow
does this mean we are stuck with duncan for the rest of the year? Stats are what is not objective TRL
I'm beginning to think
we’ll be stuck with Duncan for the rest of his career
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 21, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
that could just be the rest of the season
The poster formerly known as JoeyBombs.
NO MORE DUNCAN
"I quit because I didn't feel like the Detroit Lions had a chance to win. It just killed my enjoyment of the game."
-Barry Sanders
(Soon to be the Detroit RedWings - Henrik Zetterberg '11)
Sometimes I hate TLR
I think that all in all he’s a good manager, but he’s starting to lose it. This quote just emits an aura of douchebaggery. Why throw BR under the bus?
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
This isn't all Tony's fault
Mo should not let him be on the 40 man roster right now. Mo needs to realize he is the GM, not Tony.
But yeah, pretty sad that Tony feels the need to protect Chris at the expense of someone who is actually helping the team this season.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
ahaha yeah right
I’d be willing to bet Tony has much more pull than a regular GM has to deal with….miles anyone?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Don Tony's act is getting old.
It’s obvious that Tony doesn’t like being here anymore, and it’s obvious that his personal feelings about players are drastically interfering with his ability to be objective in evaluating the performance about said players. Ankiel, Duncan, and Wellemeyer are obvious examples of this subjectivity.
He and D. Duncan feel responsible for Rick Ankiel, so they never seem to acknowledge when he isn’t playing well. He and D. Duncan are obviously protecting C. Duncan beyond what would be done if he were anybody else (ask Skip how tough it SHOULD be to stay at the ML level). He and D. Duncan are obviously protecting their pride in keeping Wellemeyer in the rotation. He is obviously afraid to admit that this team needs Skip in LF significantly more than it needs him at 2B.
The reason why few managers ever last this long at one stop is becoming evident here, as well. Tony feels a level of entitlement to be able to do whatever he wishes. Checks and Balances systems are required in every walk of life, and nobody seems to be checking him anymore. He is out of control, and his continued attacks on the fans are going to start to show up in the ticket sales.
BTW, thanks Alxfritz for posting this. I thought it was good fodder for the board here, and your points about the situation were right on.
I don't mind TLR defending a player (Duncan)
but it was not good throw Boog under the bus. Boog has been GREAT this year at SS
I don’t suppose anyone will call out Don Tony’s hypocrisy that he’s been clamoring for a “big bat” for two years for “protection,” yet he rushes to Duncan’s defense when Chris gets rightly criticized for poor performance.
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Brendan had no chance yesterday for some reason.
is same as saying that a pitcher doesn’t his best stuff on any given night. If he says that Wellemeyer and Walters were not good today are we go to complain about him throwing them under the bus?
That was an afterthought
probably after Tony realized he was crapping all over his starting SS.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 21, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Tony lost his cool there.
That is for sure. And he shouldn’t have said it. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t incorrect in the assessment.
Playing that out in your head if someone asked him why he used Reyes after Walters gave him that second hit.
He should have just said, “I wanted power there.” or something along those lines.
I haven't seen anyone
look more futile at the plate than ankiel and duncan. What a slap in the face to Ryan. Tony “should be ashamed of himself”
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 21, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Applying the "Looking Futile Again" standard
Can anyone alert to a PA in the last month when Chris Duncan has not looked futile?
I’ve been one of Lil’ Dunc’s biggest proponents over the years. However, no one can look at him objectively this season and say, “There is a MLB outfielder.” He just isn’t. And it’s probably because of his surgery. So, in fairness to him and for the sake of the club, why don’t we send him to Memphis where he can play every game?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i hate to say it, but it's time for a change
yes we can
yes we can
yes we can get a new manager
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
I'd rather have a new left handed outfielder.
And that includes Ankiel. I love them both, but it’s not helping have TWO mightily struggling lefty outfielders on this roster.
On with the (good) youth movement!
I'd rather have a new right-handed outfielder
which is what this team has been crying out for for 2 f’ing months. Jesus, Mo, get it done already…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 5:07 AM EDT up reply actions
He did get it done
unfortunately, that guy is stuck playing third base because we don’t have anyone to man that spot right now either.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
might be
the swift kick in the ass this team needs
tony’s a great manager and he does get a lot out of a little, but he’s just worn out his welcome. thanks for all your service tony, but you ca have the clint hurdle treatment. fat chance. mainstream cards’ fans would rape mo and it would greatly hurt our chances of resigning albert
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
So if Brendan Ryan had no chance based on 3 at-bats
what does Chris Duncan have based on 50 at-bats?
Not a prayer in hell?
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 21, 2009 11:10 PM EDT reply actions
Makes a move...
…and then thinks about the logic behind it later.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 21, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
that was a much weaker
justification than the lefty-righty situation. The fact that Duncan hits lefthanded makes it a defensible position, IMO. The fact that Ryan may have looked bad 3 times is wholly irrelevant.
2 things
Really bother me, other than the obvious fact that we have nothing for left field (a supposed easy offensive position to fill). That’s just a tough result of having guys hitting nowhere near what is expected combined with a little stubbornness….but I want to skip over that.
The first thing is that these guys want to have it both ways with Duncan and Ankiel lately. You cannot play the angle that these guys aren’t 100% while you push them out there regularly. What does that count for? If they are playing they are supposed to perform. If that isn’t happening people are going to get upset. If they are hurt, DL them. You can’t shove them out there and then when they continually struggle just pass it off as being hurt. It has the look of the losers limp.
Secondly, and I see HL mentioned this above, it’s ok for him to call out Brendan Ryan because he had a couple awful at bats. That’s no problem. Him looking bad in a few at bats is relevant. With Duncan though, the fans have a problem with more or less 2 years of poor at bats…and that is enough to make him vomit. I’ve rejected the nepotism angle for the longest. You see stuff like this and you start to think the facts aren’t on your side.
TLR's first three paragraphs are perfectly right...
… Valverde does have a huge platoon split, Boog has been struggling badly at the plate (not just last night), and Duncan has been treated unfairly by fans since the day he was called up. i honestly think that batting Duncan was the right call, mostly because of Valverde’s split and the fact that Duncan has a higher OBP than Ryan. it didn’t work out last night, but that doesn’t mean that leaving Ryan in was a better option.
whether he’s injured or not, it’s true that Duncan has sucked. but he does take much more abuse than everybody else on the team who sucks, and it’s not fair to him. we have several replacement-level players on the team, but Dunc gets by far the most venom. it’s happened because his dad is the coach (nepotism!), because he’s playing out of position (not all that poorly, if you believe UZR) , and because he just looks awkward.
moreover, there is nobody in the minors who looks like they could out-perform Dunc right now. Stav/Robinson/Barden/Greenes have been horrible, and the MLEs of Craig (.648), Hoffpauir (.696), and Jay (.564) are terrible as well. over the last two years when he’s been injured and ineffective Duncan has still put up an aggregate .700 OPS, which is better than his potential replacements would likely do.
does anybody really think that TLR likes choosing between Stav, Ank, and Dunc every fucking night? or that he wanted to play Thurston every day for four months? having really, really bad options does not make one a bad manager.
should Mo make another deal? i’d love it if he could, but prices are high and only a handful of teams are in sell mode. it’s tough to see any obvious trades that would improve the team at an acceptable price.
as for the “throwing Ryan under bus” part: he should have just said that he thought that Duncan had a better chance against Valverde because both Valverde and Ryan have huge platoon splits and Duncan has a higher OBP than Ryan this year. or he could have said that he did it because both Valverde and Ryan have huge platoon splits and Duncan has been a better hitter than Ryan every single season of their careers including this one. he didn’t have to say that Ryan would “look futile again,” but Ryan DID look futile against a terrible starting pitcher last night, he looked futile against a good pitcher tonight, and he has looked futile for the past few weeks (2 hits in his last 24 ABs before tonight, with 6 Ks and 1 BB in that time). true, Ryan is in the lineup for his defense, but it was the 9th inning and we were down a run. defense is no concern in that situation. PHing Dunc for Ryan was exactly the right move in that spot.
maybe he shouldn’t’ve said it, but it’s true. is it throwing him under the bus to say he’s been struggling when it’s the truth? would anyone posting in this thread say that TLR had thrown Dunc under the bus if he criticized Dunc’s recent performance?
i doubt it.
by kindred on Jul 21, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Part of the problem
is that he’s never (ever) criticized Duncan or Ankiel. It’s frustrating.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
i see...
… so really you guys are all mad that TLR doesn’t throw more players under the bus?
bullshit.
FWIW, Goold agrees with me on the substance of the decision:
La Russa concedes that Duncan is not 100 percent physically and is obviously not 100 percent with his swing, but in the ninth inning Monday the Cardinals bench offered no alternatives. Shortstop Brendan Ryan had been peerless in the field and aimless at the plate all game, and Houston closer Jose Valverde had starkly different splits. Righthanded hitters have batted .136 against him this season. Lefties … .310.
The move was to go to a lefthanded pinch hitter. Duncan was the only one available.
You don't need to throw someone needlessliy out there
to criticize a player. Ryan deserved no mention during his quotes.
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
That's one way of twisting it
I guess.
Perhaps it is because he is throwing a player who HAS performed well this season under the bus and continues to defend two players who have played piss poor to the point that he willfully plays them injured to ‘get them going’ and refuses to criticize them.
Brian Barden has a .664 OPS this season, Duncan has a .687 OPS. If Barden has been terrible, Duncan has been just slightly less terrible with infinite more playing time.m In fact, before being demoted the last time, Barden has a .677 OPS…or 10/100’s more horrible than Chris Duncan.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Duncan has been terrible...
… i never argued that he hasn’t been. only that half the team has been terrible, but Duncan takes more than his fair share.
Also, Chris Duncan is hitting worse against RHP
this year than against LHP. The only difference is he talks more walks against RHP, probably because he isn’t afraid of the inside fastball against RHP.
So, in that situation that Tony wanted more power and a guy that could hit, he double crossed himself on the splits by sending up a guy that was worse in the situation that he should have been better in.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
sample size I think
also, he’s in the middle of a huge slump (well, this might actually be indicative of how sucky his true talent level is, but you know what I mean). For his career in MLB and MiLB Duncan has a pretty pronounced regular platoon split (hits righties better than lefties).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 5:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't disagree that ...
Duncan was the best odds in that situation. That’s an awfully sad state of affairs, but the argument there is fair. It still doesn’t absolve LaRussa, Mozeliak, or Duncan from any faults given the horrible performance of the player since the end of April.
But look who we're talking about:
Duncan – son of one of TLR’s best friends and current pitching coach
and
Ankiel – one of TLR’s favorite players, the pitching career of whom TLR feels personally responsible for ruining.
I’m not saying it’s right, but TLR is a human being and I think he can be forgiven for refusing to call those guys out in the press regardless of how much either may deserve it at any given time…
Criticizing Ryan in this situation didn’t make me too happy, but I’m not too worried about it. And I can understand when TLR gets defensive about Duncan.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
I cannot forgive nepotism
or at least accept it in a major league manager. That’s basically what you’re excusing above.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Not really nepotism, per se...
I agree that roster/playing-time decisions should not be made based on that sort of thing, but what I meant was that I am willing to look past comments (or lack thereof) to the press about players TLR is fond of for valid reasons.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
It's one thing ...
to not openly criticize them. It’s another to vehemently defend their lack of production and chastise the fan base for “having a quirk” about him. To say that others criticizing Duncan “makes him want to vomit” is quite different from choosing not to pile on.
I’ve seen many (on this board last year even) that unjustly criticized Duncan, or belittled the abilities that he had previously shown. That said, we haven’t seen that player in nearly 2 years. It is reasonable to expect that these “quirky” fans might have a bit of a problem with seeing him trotted out there every game as though he’s just in a minor funk.
duncan
takes less shit than thurston or ankiel and at least one of them has a hell of a lot more potential than him in every facet of the game. you decide who i’m talking about
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
If this team
was basing minor league promotions on MLEs Chris Duncan would never have had a sniff of the bigs with his .670ish OPS MLE. MLEs are an interesting exercise, but they are not any sort of guarantee by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that nobody knows what any particular minor leaguer is going to achieve if given a chance – especially in a small sample like over the next few weeks.
It can’t really hurt to give someone with roughly the same MLE a chance. I cannot fathom how the players you mentioned above could actually be significantly worse. Take a chance, you might get lucky and generate a spark.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
whether he’s injured or not, it’s true that Duncan has sucked. but he does take much more abuse than everybody else on the team who sucks, and it’s not fair to him.
Have you ever met gdm and his bear? Also, as the walking definition of a replacement level player, who, whether injured or not, hasn’t been good for 2 years, he is deserved of some of the scorn he is getting. Besides, as Alex said, nobody is criticizing Duncan for sucking, we are criticizing Tony for giving him 300+ at bats this year, and Mo for keeping him on the roster.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
awwww,, i have a new bear, he loves everyone
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
Too gay
not that there’s anything wrong with that…
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 5:34 AM EDT up reply actions
doh
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
i agree with most of this.
Throwing ryan under the bus is a bit much for me.
But really the only thing larussa has in his control is the schumaker experiment. I have long argued that skip should be back in LF, thurston at 2b, and barden (then later derosa) at 3b. But at this point I understand tony a) doesn’t want to piss off a guy who has worked hard to learn a new defensive position and b) thinks – maybe correctly – that the worst is over and skip will be a better than replacement 2b.
I accept he has a rationale behind the schumaker experiment. Beyond that, this is just joe thurston all over again. TLR’s choices are pretty poor. I would be tempted to call up craig just to give him a chance but there’s only a slight chance he’ll be an improvement.
Mo is on the hook here. I think a further RH LF is in order. But that’s not Tony’s fault.I’m happy to blame tony here, but I think the ankiel/ duncan business is not on him.
That said, if he plays stavinoha again….
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 22, 2009 2:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree with a lot of your points kindred
it’s tough to see any obvious trades that would improve the team at an acceptable price.
But I totally, totally disagree with that. There’s a TON of F.A.T. outfielders we could pick up for next to nothing or replacement pieces now who would be doing a better job than our current LF options, especially against LHP.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 5:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Also
it’s very pertinent that it’s exceptionally easy to improve the team, because we’re trotting out replacement level (or barely above) guys at 3B, LF and 2B most nights. Just pick up a league average player on a salary dump, one who’s languishing in AAA, a rental from a team out of contention etc etc who can play ANY of those three positions and we’ll probably add at least one win to our final total. Given how close the division is, I really think it’s pretty hopeless that Mo hasn’t sought to do this yet.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Schu is fine at second
His defense is definitely improving, and he’s an above average hitter. By the end of the year, I seriously think he’ll be league average. 3rd base doesn’t seem to be a problem with DeRosa coming back; Thurston is an acceptable backup.
Along with the 5th starter, LF is the most improvable spot. And hey! Austin Kearns could be had for a bat of balls, ditto Murton.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 5:42 AM EDT up reply actions
The good thing about all the moveable pieces is our lineup right now is that we don’t have to be shopping for just one guy or one position to improve our team. If we land a new ss then BR can go to 2band Skip can go to left. If we get a left fielder DeRosa can play 3B. If we get a 3Bman or try out Wallce DeRosa can go to left. And we can use Ankiel as a mopup guy on the mound for blowouts either way. I’m starting to thinkof him more a s a pitcher again than a position player.
I’ve also seen a few rumors that we might be looking at Dunn. When I brought this up a few weeks ago I had several people fuming, but he’s still a guy to go after in my estimation. I dont remember for sure but I think Dunn’s getting 10mil and Doc H is getting 16 mil. If thats the case and we have the money for Doc, then lets spend the 10mil on Dunn and the rest on a new fifth starter.
"I don't take no anesthetic. Did Lincoln ask for any girlie gas when they blowed his head off?"
by boba schrute on Jul 22, 2009 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Rizzo doesn't want to trade Dunn for some reason
And while I think he would be a good addition this year, he is also signed for next at well above market value.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions
he's due about 3-4m the rest of this year, 12m next year
whilst he usually only grades out as an average-ish player thanks to his appalling defence, I’m kinda prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt (given UZR’s possible fallibility) and say he’s maybe a 3-win player going forward. Although his values (despite not often being injured) have varied pretty wildly the last few years, he’s been worth 21 wins in 7.5 seasons according to FanGraphs, so that’s nearly 3 WAR anyways.
Also, I think there’s been some discussion of this here in the past, but there’s a good argument that elite offensive stats (of the sort Dunn provides) are made more important by playing alongside a historically dominant hitter like Pujols – in a way, we can argue that a 2/3-win guy who’s all offence is perhaps more valuable to us than a 2/3-win guy who’s all defence if he’s hitting before or after Albert. #5 gets on base and gets extra-base hits at such a prodigious rate that any offensive stats produced before or after him in the lineup will surely be more valuable than they would in a context-neutral hitting environment – i.e. if Dunn’s hitting 4th, his ability to hit 40 dingers a year is more valuable when Pujols is standing on 1B nearly 50% of the time he does it. I don’t think I’m arguing “lineup protection” here (i.e. I don’t think Dunn hitting 4th will improve Pujols output any, perhaps it’ll even hurt him slightly if people are less willing to IBB him, which, we’ve seen here, is generally a good result for the Cardinals), more “offensive context”.
So I’m gonna say 12 mill might not be a bad price for Dunn. Of course, the main problem is that Rizzo is reluctant to trade him (quite why, and quite why they paid out a 20m contract for a win-now sort of player when their team absolutely sucked this year, I dunno), so we might have to part with something useful, which I’d not be willing to do. But maybe if a AAA pitcher (I dunno, Mortensen?) and a C-level prospect gets it done, I’d be prepared to go for it. I realise his defence isn’t getting any better but I still think he’s worth 3 wins, and there might be a persuasive offensive-context argument there. Plus, we can always try to shift our excellent CF and very good RF a little to the left to cover for his gippy D….
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Dunn has been worth an average of 2 WAR from 06-08 and he's on pace to be slightly worse than that this year
I think he is the very definition of average. But yes, getting him in the lineup next to Pujols would be awesome, I just want know part of the 12 million owed to him next year.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 22, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Pagnozzi for Dunn
get it done!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Rizzo wants pitching
the guy the Nats would love to move is Nick Johnson. Any way HE could play LF?
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He probably wouldn't be any worse than Dunn at it
I recall the BoSox were interested in Johnson as a DH. Dunno if injury concerns of Papi turning things around a little put them off.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought they wanted Johnson
at 1B to move Youk over to 3B and end the Mike Lowell experiment there. Johnson is an above average defensive 1B when he’s healthy.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Nick Johnson
I’ve always loved him. Obviously it’ll never happen but having him in the two hole right in front of Albert would be sexy.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 22, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not sure where this reply will end up...
… so i’ll quote you, Felonius:
But I totally, totally disagree with that. There’s a TON of F.A.T. outfielders we could pick up for next to nothing or replacement pieces now who would be doing a better job than our current LF options, especially against LHP.
a TON? like who? someone said Kearns somewhere, but he’s been Stavinoha-like for the past two years. Murton? the Rockies want to trade Spillbourghs first. who else? Willingham is drawing interest from the Phillies and wouldn’t come cheap. Willy Mo Pena was a free agent not to long ago… you wanna sign him? who do you have in mind?
kearns has kinda sucked, true enough
but he’s a great defender – stav isn’t. He also has an excellent record against LHP (despite small sample size, he’s still getting on base above .350 the last 3 seasons against them, which puts ankiel to shame). I can’t help but feel that (at 29) he’s been hampered by the whole “playing for the worst team in baseball-effect” that seemed to kill felipe lopez the last couple of years.
Murton would cost something but not THAT much. We could get him for a fairly replaceable AAA SP, I’d have thought, and maybe a bit of something else. I can’t believe he’s totally off-limits if he’s languishing in AAA. Ryan Langerhans was just traded for practically nothing. The Nats are apparently wanting to rid themselves of Elijah Dukes (although I find it hard to believe he’d be traded for nothing, we could certainly put something together to get the guy). Cody Ross is another guy who’s above-average and could be had for pieces that we can spare. I can’t believe the Pirates are that high on Milledge if he’s languishing in AAA still.
There are plenty of teams who are more-or-less out of it this year who have RH OF who are about-average (or at least hit LHP well) that we could get without having to give up much. If we’re prepared to move our more flexible players around, we can pick up practically free right-handed guys to play 3B or 2B, and just leave DeRosa in LF. Ray Durham’s still out there. Grudzie.
We’re still a RHB away from being able to field a decent team vs LHP. It’s a major problem and it’ll kill us (potentially) in the post-season. We can either try to improve for basically free (Durham, Kearns or something) or give up a little bit to improve this year AND next (as we’ll still have a RHB vacancy in the OF) with Ross, Willingham, Dukes or Murton.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 7:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Grudz...
… was signed by somebody (can’t remember who) and is said to take 2-3 weeks to get into game shape. Durham is probably in the same boat.
i doubt the Marlins trade Ross. they still they’re in the WC race, Ross is cheap and under team control for awhile, and we don’t match up well with their needs.
i don’t honestly know what it would take to get Murton, but i don’t think it’s as easy as you claim.
Milledge is in AAA because he’s been terrible in the bigs every time he’s been promoted, but he’s still very young and still has a lot of potential. same with Dukes.
Willingham is having a monster year and would require a pretty hefty price. plus, the Nats need/want/demand pitching for any of their players and we don’t really have any of those pieces. they’re not going to give us Willingham for Boggs.
i’m not saying that there aren’t some creative deals that are possible to make. but l don’t think those moves are as obvious as you claim. if it were really that easy to get one of these guys it probably would’ve been done by now.
grudz got a minor league deal w. the twins.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
So, what would that look like?
I have no idea what it might look like if Tony criticized Duncan. I’ve never seen it. You really don’t think there is a double standard here?
So, Tony doesn’t think Brett Wallace is ready, and from all accounts it’s because of his glove at 3B. However, they were willing to put Duncan in LF because they had to have his bat. Now, his bat is silent, but they don’t think they should exercise the option on him because he gives them the best alternative. No, no double standard there.
If Tony weren’t so damned stubborn, Duncan would be in the minors rehabbing, Wallace would be at 3B, Thurston/DeRosa/Hoff would be at 2B, and Skip would be in LF. The problem is that too many of those items affect his pet players or projects, and it’s more important for him to be a genious than to be right.
If there is nobody in the minors that can fill Duncan or Ankiel’s shoes right now, then I don’t want to hear anymore talk about our farm system. We have three horrible players on this team, one that is surviving entirely on his defense, and one that is surviving on his bat because he’s out of position. Half of our lineup is nearly an automatic out. If the farm system can’t fill at least some of those gaps, then how do we consider that system worthwhile?
by etp_stl on Jul 22, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i doubt
that tony’s not wanting wallace is based on such reasoning. i think it’s entirely because he’s 22 and was drafted just over a year ago. i think tony decided before the season started that wallace wouldn’t be ready all year, despite whatever performance he had
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 22, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
to be fair, that's not unreasonable.
Wallace is not ready and it’s not fair to bring him up now. He’s only had a couple of months at AAA and he’s hardly tearing the cover off the ball.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Half of the lineup.....
is not an automatic out.
Skip, Raz, AP, Luddy, Molina, Ryan and now hopefully DeRosa are all fine.
That leaves the pitchers spot and one other spot in the lineup.
If you want to argue that the guys I listed above are “inconsistent”, fine. That is a FO problem though, b/c alot of those guys are just role players. We knew Raz would be up and down. Ryan is playing full time for the first time. Molina has hot and cold spells. And then there is Luddy.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 22, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Ryan is pretty much an automatic out
or at least as much of one as you’d ever want on a major league team. His defence makes up for it, but he’s a #8/9 hitter on nearly every team in baseball.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Then Colby Rasmus is an automatic out.....
Since his batting average is lower than Ryans, and his OBP is only .003 higher.
Correct?
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 22, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
As you said, ...
Rasmus is streaky right now. He’ll probably get over it. Ryan was hitting above his expectations, as an earlier fanpost described. Ryan provides no power, and his OBP is entirely made up of how often the bat hits the ball.
I’m not disparaging Ryan’s value to the team, as I believe that small bat/big glove players are just fine for me at SS and C. The fact is that he is a marginal offensive player that compensates for it with his glove.
I hadn’t been watching much lately, so I wasn’t aware that DeRosa was back. So, that removes one monkey from the lineup. I’ll give you that puts the number down to 1/3 of the lineup that is NEARLY an automatic out.
Aimed at the wrong guy.
I wasn’t one of those so offended because Ryan was included in the discussion.
Then Colby Rasmus is an automatic out…..
Since his batting average is lower than Ryans, and his OBP is only .003 higher.
Correct?
I guess so, yeah…. Although his wOBA (.333) is way above Ryan’s (.299), and he’s not been as lucky (Rasmus BABIP – .295, despite a 20% LD%, Ryan BABIP – .328, with an identical LD%). Rasmus has hit much better than Ryan has. I think you’re cherry-picking stats somewhat.
Ryan’s hitting has been very poor this year (well below average), this is the point I am making. Rasmus has been average with the bat (in fact slightly above).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions
there have been injuries at
The aaa level as well as the ML level which have sapped our supply of OF and 3b (mather, freese). Other realistic possibilities have slumped (craig, jay) or been traded away (barton). I think it’s pretty unrealistic to expect any team’s farm to have 4-5 ml average starters ready to come up at any one time for any one position.
The job of a farm is not to have a whole second league average team waiting. It’s to provide replacement level depth in the case of injury and to periodically provide a ++ player to the big club.
Right now we have a ROY CF, half a bullpen, a 3b rental who was bought with members of our farm, as well as several spot starters who are better than our #5 pitcher. Our 1b, 2b, and SS are home grown. we get pretty good value from our farm.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 22, 2009 11:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you're missing my point.
I’m saying that we supposedly don’t have a single option at AAA that could come up and outperform Duncan’s line of .108/.298/.108/.406 in the last month. If that’s the case, then we really are bankrupt down there.
half-month lines are not determinative.
of course we have guys who can bring a .400 ops to the table. an upgrade on duncan would – to me – be a guy who hits about a .680 OPS. that’s a pretty low bar, but the options are pretty limited at AAA. I would happily give jay or craig a shot. but they might well be mid-.600’s guys.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Well, ...
when I said the last month, I was using the 28 days line on B-R. I wasn’t talking about July. Just for reference, he was
.938 for Mar/Apr
.675 for May
.608 for June
.294 for July
So, tell me his .680 overall isn’t being incredibly buoyed by that first month. A mid-.600s guy would be a great improvement over the last month and a half of our LF.
Good post.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
I'm not a Tony fan...
But I do think he could defend Duncan more rationally;
Basically:
He’s not hitting, but he still takes walks. (He’s got a .257 OBP in July, despite 1 hit, which is pretty impressive, in a sad way, 8 walks, 1 hit)
He really don’t have anything better in AAA. (See Stavinoha).
That said, I do think that Stavinoha should be down, Duncan benched (or in AAA) and Hoff up and Skippy moved to LF where he belongs.
I have never had any big issues
with La Russa but this Duncan thing has gone too far. He should not be on this club. He should be in Memphis proving that he can any longer hit and with any power. Ankiel, I can abide because he is good defensively, shows some signs of coming around somewhat and he would not pass waivers. I see giving him more time to prove himself.
He in no way is hurting the club as Duncan is. Some say Duncan has some options left. I don’t know but it doesn’t matter anyway because nobody is going to claim him on waivers anyway.
The next bus for Memphis should Have Duncan riding on it.
someone would probably claim dunc, I think
but you’re right – he does have one option year left, and he most definitely should be in AAA. He’s still recovering from his injury, he can’t hit major league pitching anymore, the book is out on him, and he’s a woeful defender. He brings nothing useful to a contending MLB team and absolutely should be in AAA trying to learn how to hit baseballs again.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 5:18 AM EDT up reply actions
shelly has a yankees hard-on
sounded like big dunc tried to talk him out of it but failed
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
sad to say
but i think tony might be loseing it.
Congrats on having two of the five featured fanposts
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
and you need to get out more ;-)...
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Chris Duncan may be treated unfairly
I’m sure he probably is, but he has had help.
Fans supported him early, especially when Tony submarined him by benching him in key situations vs LHP. Even his goofs in LF weren’t that big of a deal because he showed power.
However, he got hurt in 2007 and Tony continued to play him and he played extremely poorly. From July 27th, 2007 to the end of the season, Duncan hit 1 homerun and still saw ABs in 43 games as he plummeted to a .514 OPS and a .167 average while botching plays in the OF.
He came back in 2008 and played poorly in the OF again (remember his birthday in Colorado) but his bat was better than average. However, he became injured and still played 2 whole months with a broken neck. During that time, he once again started 25 games, played in 29 and only hit 2 HRs while his SLG plummeted to .337.
Now, this year. The doctors say he won’t be healthy for a full year. Yet, until the past month, Chris had the most ABs of any OF’er on the team. He played poorly in the OF again and his bat died on May 2nd. Since then, his OPS is down to .554 and he has hit 2 HRs.
For slugging OF’er whose power is supposed to make up for his defense and strikeouts, he is playing poorly. Mostly because he is injured but it’s not like playing injured is giving us a better opportunity to win. His OPS has been .554 since May 2nd. You don’t think ANYONE in Memphis can provide that? He’s slugging .267!
Why would you play a player that is hurt and is giving you nothing of value? It makes no sense. And because it makes no sense, people begin to try to reason it with subjective things like “Uncle Tony is doing it to get Chris his service time he lost last year”, etc.
Use the DL, send the guy down. Let him get healthy and bring up someone who MIGHT get more than 2 hits a month.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 22, 2009 1:33 AM EDT reply actions
TLR should have to do all the surgery and physical therapy along with every guy on the DL
Put him under and cut him open. Maybe he’ll think twice before running guys into the ground.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Service time
people begin to try to reason it with subjective things like "Uncle Tony is doing it to get Chris his service time he lost last year", etc.
Dunc didn’t lose any time last year. He played less than 7 games in the minors so the time actually was credited to major league service time. He was a super two this off season for arbitration purposes, so he is in his arbitration years.
I agree on the other points. I also would love to know the question that caused the response.
In defence of TLR
he was right to make that move.
Valverde has a pretty pronounced platoon split. Duncan is a left-hander, and, regardless of how badly he’s hit this year and how well (lucky) Ryan has been, he’s still probably a marginally better hitter than Ryan.
I also think he’s right to verbally support and protect his players in front of the media and the fans. What is he supposed to do, say, “Yeah, you guys are right, Duncan fucking sucks”?
I don’t like LaRussa, and his prickly attitude with the press is somewhat wearing, but he was right to make the PH change, and he’s right not to throw his player under a bus.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
That may be
But for someone who is mad about how one of his players is being treated by the fans and the media, he sure goes out of his way to bash his starting SS in front of the fans and the media. It makes me want to vomit.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 22, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
that's true enough.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
yes, the issue with many of us
is not that Tony DIDN’T throw a player (Chris) under the bus, but that he DID (Brendan.)
His defense of Duncan is ok, his inadvertant slam on Ryan was not. ((in the opinion of some of us))
If Duncan and Ankiel are hurt
then why continue to play them and beat up the fans for being upset about it. Tony, when Carpenter was hurt did you send him out to the mound? When Wainright hurt his finger did you still pitch him? I think Tony needs to look at DunKiel the same way he’s looking at KGreene. When he’s healthy he’s an assett, but because he’s not, you have to look at another option. We know that that both guys have performed for us in the past couple years but if theyre not capable of doing it right now then why march them out there? We’d be better pullling up a AAA guy who may not be completely ready, but will most likely give us a few good at bats and ok defense than a couple of unhealthy outfielders who look like they are lost at the plate. I can appreciate the loyalty to those two guys, but what about the rest of the team and the fans? The best manager ever, but he’s off on this one!
"I don't take no anesthetic. Did Lincoln ask for any girlie gas when they blowed his head off?"
I agree
I think this is really what it comes down to. Why are the not at AAA trying to get healthy and work out their problems? Sheeesh, give Jon Jay a shot. I’m not sure how he could do any worse than DunKiel. At least he’s a healthy. Has a little power and speed. No use waiting to see if Glaus can play left, which is what they’re doing. That’s why no move in left has been made.
Jay
would also be an elite defender in LF. That said, his bat would stink at MLB level, seeing as he’s currently struggling to get any traction at AAA.
I’m more keen on a Schu/Craig platoon, or a Schu/FAT righty (Kearns, Murton, someone like that) platoon, and find a better option for 2B (Hoffpauir could probably handle it, I like the Escobar trade idea if he’s genuinely available, Ray Durham is still a possible if he’s kept himself in shape).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree on Craig
I think it’s time for him to get his shot out in Left (and possibly some time at 3rd). He’s got a good stick and if they hit him in the 2 hole he should see some good pitches in front of Albert (Colby against RHP- Craig against LHP). It’s worth a shot. Stavinoha and Craig should be playing over Dunkiel.
All that said, I still can’t figure out why we don’t lead off with Ryan and hit Schu in the 2 hole. Against LHP this appears to be a no-brainer, but TLR is committed to Ryan hitting 9th.
by The Misery Boys on Jul 22, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
You want Ryan leading off, "looking futile again?"
“What’s so ridiculous is, if you watch Brendan, Brendan ha[s] no chance [to lead off] for some reason.”
by Ray Lankford on Jul 22, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
All that said, I still can’t figure out why we don’t lead off with Ryan and hit Schu in the 2 hole.
Because Ryan has a .313 OBP this season? With what appears to be a fairly lucky BABIP? Ryan is an awful hitter. #9 is where he belongs. Schu, meanwhile, should never be starting against a LHP.
I wish they’d run this damn ballclub properly.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 22, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair Enough
My comment on Ryan leading off was stupid. I guess it’s just the frustration of not having a decent lead-off hitter, or #2 hitter, or…
Granted, Schu then Colby against RHP is not terrible, just not ideal. Against lefties – insert explicative.
by The Misery Boys on Jul 22, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Monk names names from the Past
Mr. Monk, you bring up a name I haven’t heard in a while, Matt Murton. Now if memory is correct Matt was a .300 singles hitter with average left field defense. A poor mans Skippy. Now I don’t know his stats so don’t quote me, and for god sake don’t argue with me, but Super Skippy and Poor Skippy in front of Phat Man Albert could be interesting. Notice I said COULD. Did anyone hear the interview with Ozzie Smith this morning in Chicago on the Score? Stop don’t tell me you can’t get that station. Seems like Ozzie is not sure about Albert and you know what! PED!!!!
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
by P.Ennis 1985 Usher of the Year on Jul 22, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
This post
just blew my mind
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
by lunchboxbomb on Jul 22, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Murton has more power than Schumaker
he could probably hit 15-20 HR in a full-time job. I’m not sure Skip’s a sure thing for double figures. Other than that, they’re very similar players, just Murton hits from the right side (slightly less vicious platoon split too) and is arguably a bit better with the glove (though they’re probably about the same).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 23, 2009 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions
going there
Because TLR can’t get used to veterans who aren’t juicing to get healthy and work out their problems.
/s.o.b.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
only if we can keep all the coaches...
Which is ironic, given this post. But there it is.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 22, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
the pattern that most disturbs me
is TLR’s insistence on running injured guys out there and demanding that they play through their pain -- to the detriment of the team and, often, the player.
he did it w/ rolen in 2005 (which is why rolen hates tony’s guts), mulder and izzy and edmonds in 2006, maroth duncan and mulder in 2007, duncan and izzy and mulder again last year, ankiel and duncan this year . . . . . for all we know, wellemeyer’s problems this year are due to the fact that la russa made him pitch through elbow pain the last half of 2008, instead of getting him some rest.
i even seem to recall that late in 2006, tony criticized edmonds because edmonds (who was recovering from a concussion) wouldn’t board a plane to houston for a key series. the doctor had forbidden edmonds to fly; edmonds obeyed the doctor’s orders; tony lambasted edmonds.
as far as i’m concerned, that’s the central issue here. it’s not about whether duncan stinks, or whether he gets a fair shake from fans, or whether he should have pinch-hit monday night, or whether brendan ryan could have had a better AB. it’s about la russa’s reckless disregard for the health of his players, and his blindness to how that impacts the organization
Ankiel last year too
and the “play through injuries” issue could be why B Ryan was in the doghouse early in his career because Ryan was regularly unavailable to start due to some minor tweaks.
Lack of minor league rehab appearances this year are another possible sign of Tony’s disregard for a player’s health.
i agree with this...
… but i wonder if this is unique to TLR, or if a lot of pro sports clubs work the same way. it seems that there is a “play through pain” fetishism in sports that might color some decisions. there’s also this mentality that there’s a difference between playing hurt and playing injured. that you can play with a bruise, but not if something is really wrong.
but that’s not true; you CAN play when something is really wrong. DeRosa is going to play the rest of the year with a torn tendon sheath, and if last night is any indication he’ll be able to do alright. Pujols has been playing with injuries that need surgery (and forced him to change positions) for years. Glaus played much of last season with a bad shoulder that needed surgery. there are plenty of other examples of players performing at very high levels even though they are injured. how many times have we heard “will require surgery at the end of the season”? a bunch, about a lot of players that are able to maintain a pretty high level performance even while injured.
perhaps TLR just has a hard time understanding why some guys can perform well while injured but other guys can’t. which is no excuse, but it might help explain some of his more bizarre behavior (e.g. the thing with Rolen).
At some point ...
the manager/head coach has to be the one to identify when a player is not performing at a level that justifies his inclusion in the lineup. Blindly assuming that a player should be able to play through the pain for months before acknowledging it isn’t working seems to be bad recognition by the manager/head coach.
You are absolutely right. There is an aspect of “tape it and play” in every athlete for every sport. That’s why it’s so important to have management that can identify when the player has to be sat down. LaRussa seems to be particularly bad at this, and he seems to take it as an affront when players don’t succeed despite injury.
maybe i had misunderstood.
i had always thought the rolen thing was about rolen wanting to be in the lineup, despite being obviously injured. i hadn’t thought that tony was the driving force keeping him on the field. i had thought that the antagonism was about tony finally benching him.
if i misunderstood, then that whole interaction has a different light on it.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Nope.
Rolen always contended that the rift began with the organization expecting him to play through his injuries. In addition, he wanted to get a second opinion, and the team told him he wasn’t allowed to go outside of the organization. It never set well with him, and he blames that for why he wasn’t able to get it fixed and rehabbed. He held it against LaRussa for taking the company line against him, instead of defending him.
The benching was more of a last straw because he felt the way it happened (not being told before he got to the ballpark) was another show of disrespect toward him by the manager.
i vaguely remember the 2nd opinion thing.
well, that makes it make more sense.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
what you do think about the news today?
that Tony & Dave threatened to quit if Chris was traded? if that doesn’t scream that Tony & Dave are blind, i don’t know what does.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
it isn't news...
… it’s complete speculation. the “news” from today was that it appeared that Dunc was going to be traded, but was then optioned instead after the BoSox made a separate trade to get a better player who plays the same position.
the idea that TLR/Dunc threw a fit and threatened to quit has not been substantiated.
The same sources ...
that indicated that Dunc was almost traded, are the same ones that indicated that LaRussa and Duncan threw a fit. Unless you know something we don’t, az & HL reported that the same sources told them both of these items.
now that the dunc/lugo trade has gone down as predicted 6 hours ago, i think we
need to consider that the sources of the information were valid on all counts.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
my interpretation...
… of HL and AZ’s posts was that the trade was done. when it looked like it could be in jeopardy, they then speculated that it was because TLR/Dunc interfered. HL said:
“I wouldn’t discredit the idea that he was traded and Dave/Tony went apeshit and instead Mo is forced to option Chris to Memphis instead.”
later he said: “Things may or may not have fallen apart. Word is Tony and Dave were so made they threatened to quit.”
both statements are much more speculative than HL’s original statement that Dunc had been traded. AZ chimed in later with stronger statements, but it’s still hearsay unless his sources were actually in the room when TLR/Dunc had their hissy fit, and neither HL nor AZ indicated that that was the case. “family/friend sources” would not necessarily be privy to a phone call between Mo and TLR.
i’m not saying it didn’t happen. but it’s possible that HL/AZ’s sources had better information about the trade than about the reaction/threats.
i should stress...
… that i know nothing about this and am not making any particular claim that TLR/Dunc didn’t react the way gdm described. i’m just saying that i don’t know.
perhaps HL or AZ (or Bernie or Goold) can shed some light.
i think that's everyone wants
can someone turn on the lights?
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
that's fair: HL, Az, can you confirm that the sources that indicated the
tiff between MO and Duncan/Larussa were the same ones originally indicating Chris had been traded?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
that's not the question i had...
… there are a lot of sources inside or outside the club that might have heard about the trade but were not necessarily privy to a conversation between Mo/TLR. these would include Dunc’s drinking buddies, his girlfriend’s cousin, jeff luhnow’s babysitter, etc.
my question would be: are your sources positioned well enough to know if TLR threatened to quit, and did they strongly indicate that he did such a thing?
AZ said in the other thread: “w/r/t the rest of the noise about TLR/DD we may never get the full story there,” which makes me think that he isn’t completely convinced in the reliability of his sources for this part of the story.
which is fine. HL and AZ did great work and shouldn’t be expected to have all of these kinds of answers. but it seems like the whole board jumped to a conclusion that TLR scuttled a deal (when it looked like Dunc was just being optioned), then decided that Mo must’ve manned up to TLR and called his bluff when the trade went through. to me, that’s reading a whole lot in to some pretty light info.
in reality, it looks (to me) like Dunc was optioned so the Cards wouldn’t be short a player for tonight’s game, BoSox had to wait until Lugo cleared waivers this afternoon to complete the deal, and that’s what the hold up was. not some spat b/t Mo and TLR, but simple technical issues that required waiting a bit.
however, Bernie/Goold/Strauss/etc. SHOULD have sources that are well-positioned enough to confirm or deny this. if they can’t get this kind of info, then maybe their precious access isn’t worth as much as they like to think it is.
we aren't the only ones though wondering whats up
tim mckernan wonders what’s up as well
i don’t know if we’ll ever really hear the full story though.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
McKernan's source...
… is VEB.
Mo directly denied any rift. he definitely could be lying, of course, but he could also be telling the truth.
right, but he's still questioning the delay
that’s all i was trying to pointing out
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
There has been a little ...
circular logic going on today from the sound of it. It’s a little funny.
Piecing together what I know and what I've heard from separate reports
This trade was in place after last nights game. At the very least there was a framework. When TLR and DD heard about it, they were very very upset. After talking with Chris, and finding out that he actually wanted out of STL for various reasons, they settled down but remain none too pleased with a) Chris’s treatment by the fans and b) their lack of involvement in the trade decision.
Bernie has now intimated on twitter that TLR and the coaches are still disgruntled about it:
@miklasz: Cardinals’ staff (TLR and coaches) will be good boys in their reax to the trade but do not accept all that you hear, my friends.
Hopefully that clarifies the situation. FWIW, I have zero doubt that there was a rift over this trade.
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Bernie has been remarkably even handed
when discussing Chris Duncan. I don’t always agree with his opinion on the subject but I’ve never felt he was doing less than being honest on it.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Also to clear up my 1am post (go to bed robot!)
Dave and Tony were told about the trade after the trade was in place and were mad prior to talking to Chris. Their story now is that “it’s best for Chris and that Chris wanted out” . . . because it’s true. The sticking point is that there was a gap between when they were found out about the trade and when they realized that Chris was on board with the trade. That’s when/why they were miffed and when/why the initial trade was scuttled. After they spoke with Chris, things returned to (a degree of) normalcy, which is where we find ourselves now.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
thanks for clarifying, azru.
i do think that chris duncan, underneath the chaw-chomping and trophy-humping, was a really good and humble guy. to his credit, he’s never complained once about media coverage or fan response. i guess cynics would say that’s because his dad and tony did it for him. but the comments from matt leach that chris was one of the most popular guys in the clubhouse and the fact that chris accepted the trade in good spirits makes me think more highly of him as a person.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Right
Even to the end, he made a bad situation as tolerable as it could be. If he held a sense of entitlement while he was here, it would have been worse, and faster. If he would have went out kicking and screaming, this thing would implode. Well….maybe it does anyway, but if it does it sure as hell isn’t Chris Duncan’s fault. He’s the adult in the room.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 23, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt we really hear the full story.
Even if the guys you mention have said access, they are not going to use it in this circumstance. They know that would mean the end of said access with this team.
I can tell you that LaRussa was not happy discussing this topic.
He was on the pre-game, and he wasn’t happy. Duncan was not on the pre-game, and I don’t think that’s a surprise to anybody, either.
I was trying to think what TLR's comment reminded me of
There’s certain parts of the internet that call it a “”http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Flounce" >flounce". Basically “when I leave, you’ll all be SORRY!” except on Chris’s behalf. We can’t ever be 100% sure, but the timing of the outburst makes it feel like a flounce.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
gee thanks preview
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Mo made some comments this AM
Was listening to 590 on the way to work and they replayed some of them. Basically, he said performance matters and that there is a special relationship with Chris and the staff that affects how Tony feels about all this. I’m pretty sure that second comment is going to touch some raw nerves, completely independent of the move he made. I don’t have a direct quote, but that angle was clearly brought up by the GM. Things are coming to a boil.
Just to be clear
I am not saying this stuff just started, or that Mo started it. It’s clearly been an underlying theme that has been there for all to see from the moment Jocketty left. All I am saying is that a comment like that from Mo, no matter how friendly the voice, tells you how bad it is if you read between the lines. He just basically gave some credence to the nepotism talk. That’s going to get some behind the scenes comments, at the very least.
by Merry CRasmus on Jul 22, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I think Mo is feeling the need to exert himself here, and LaRussa has been trying to bully him since he took over from Jocketty. It’s also been pretty obvious for at least this season that LaRussa has been increasingly agitated about the organization, the fans, and the media this year. I really expect this to be his last year in St. Louis. We already know the strained relationship between him and the fans affects his wife’s feelings about the city. You have to imagine that comes from LaRussa, too.
maybe i'm jaded
but i think la russa will be around at least next year and maybe until ’11 when pujols contract is up
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Can we get this guy to write about baseball more often. It’s not sophisticated but it isn’t spineless either.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
that's all it will take to make me happy
well that and for FSMW to have the balls to not edit his question out before it is broadcast
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
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