Addition by subtraction
by Cardsray on Jul 2, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
50 comments
So the Cardinals are 80 games into the season and everyone seems to be concerned about who the cardinals should go after to help bolster our team and make a playoff run. Who should we "add" to the team to make it better? I have an idea...how about addition but subtraction. Take a look at this line and tell me if you would like this player to play 71 of the 80 games played so far.
games: 71 AB's: 187 AVG: .219 HR: 1 RBI: 19 SB: 3---CS 2
Who is this player....that would be Joe Thurston.
My point here is maybe the Cardinals don't need to make an "Impact trade" or get an "Impact bat". Maybe what they need to do is quit giving playing time to players that hurt them. We don't need to ADD things to be successful, we need to SUBTRACT the negatives.
Personally, I like Thurston. Seems to be a great guy and hustles in everything he does. But we just DFA'd a guy who put up these kinds of numbers. His name was Adam Kennedy. I'm sorry, but if I'm a manager, having a charming personality would not be the difference between DFA-ing and keeping (and playing) two players who put up similar (crappy) numbers.
Just my thoughts....whaddyathunk??
1 recs |
50 comments
Email
Print
Comments
Who replaces him then?
They do not currently have a better option in house.
by dcfcblues on Jul 2, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
really, how do we know this?
Thurston was playing good for the first month, but since may first he is a .195 .310. .331 hitter. If you take it from June first he is .182 .280 .258
I don’t understand this logic about not having someone better in house, they way he has been playing for the last 2 months it would be a damned feat if whoever replaced him manged to do any worse. It isn’t like if we lose Joe Thurston we have lost any chance at making the playoffs.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 4, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I don't understand your logic of only using Thurston's slump in your evaluation of his talent
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 4, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there is no logic behind it, I am just frustrated with sub-par starters
I know Thurston isn’t really this bad, I am also pretty sure if Tony was running Greene out there every day I would be frustrated with him too. I just want Rolen back damn it.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 5, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
i just hopped over to baseball reference out of curiosity before i came here to take a look at Rolen’s stats, and wow… yeah… bummer.
"I've played a couple of hundred games of tic-tac-toe with my little daughter and she hasn't beaten me yet. I've always had to win. I've got to win." - Bob Gibson
by MUGATU on Jul 5, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Addition by subtraction”
“What does that even mean? That is impossible”
by mattyp on Jul 2, 2009 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
There could be several players that fit the category
Thurston, Ank and Dunc come up to mind immediately… but Thurston should definitely be gone. He’s made terrible decisions (ie, latest baserunning gaffe) and couldn’t hit a hanging curve if he had 100 tries.
Welcome to Baseball Heaven.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 2, 2009 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My point
was that he should not have played 71 games so far this season. Its great to have a guy like this around in case of an emergency. But there is no justifiable reason that he has played 71 games. I actually don’t mind Tony “getting players some rest” now and then. But Tony’s use of Thurston has gone beyond that. There is no reason that Thurston should ever play over Brendan Ryan, Tyler Greene, Duncan etc. Duncan’s numbers aren’t great, but they’re better. Why not always play the best you have unless there is injury.
by Cardsray on Jul 2, 2009 12:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
dfa TLR?
4B - beer baseball bands blog
DeRosa>MB
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 2, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be interesting
to see who claimed him on waivers.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 2, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you can argue that none of those guys are appreciably better than Thurston
Thurston playing as an everyday 3B at MLB level is pretty embarassing, but, come on, Tyler Greene’s going to do a better job? The same Tyler Greene who strikes out about 30% of the time for most of his minor league career and has a shiny .600-something OPS in the majors so far? Besides, Greene and Ryan are mostly required for the middle infield (where they actually play, rather than moving them out of position as they have done with Thurston). Duncan is a left fielder, and a pretty awful one at that, so I don’t even see how he comes into this discussion.
The guy I’d have given more time to is Brian Barden, as he’s a defensive + and has a bit more pop than Thurston, but I don’t think he’s an average MLB 3B either.
We need to go outside the org for another player, and yes, thurston is pretty bad as an everyday player but he’s not a terrible backup infielder, which is what he should be doing. None of our internal options figure to be much, if any, better. I would give Barden another run if/when he’s back from injury but I’m not expecting miracles.
And using RBI and BA as arguments for or against a player will probably (rightly) not get you very far with this audience…
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 2, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
brendan isn't
“appreciably better” than thurston?
gimme a break
by prophetjohn on Jul 2, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's probably a worse hitter
and a considerably better fielder. Do you really think he’s much more than a replacement-level 3B over the course of a season, though? I reckon both might be in the 1-win range, probably Ryan’s a bit better, but then he should be playing 2B or SS.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 3, 2009 5:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
T. Greene and Ryan
are better options. At least they have some upside potential.
Mike
by juggler on Jul 2, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They're better defenders
but Thurston’s a better hitter than either of them. It’s pretty much a wash, I’d say, and I’d rather see Greene and Ryan utilised most days as our starting SS and 2B, if we’re not going to go out and get durham or someone.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 2, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thurston’s a better hitter than either of them
my god
by prophetjohn on Jul 2, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan's got a slightly better career record in MLB
but Thurston’s always been a better hitter than he has in the minors, and this year the difference in BABIP between two guys who are both slappy hitters with no power (actually, I think Thurston has more power than Ryan) is significant – Ryan’s BABIP is around .340, Thurston’s is around .260. With equal luck I think Thursty Joe would be doing better than Ryan. Thurston’s walk rate is much better and he’s hit more for extra bases – Ryan’s just doing better at getting bloops and groundballs into gaps. I’m not sure that’s a repeatable skill.
Tyler Greene is an awful hitter. He’s just dreadful. The guy’s sustained like nearly a 30% (30%!!!!) K% in the minors, and has never wOBA’d more than .334 in a reasonably full minor league season (and that was AA – Thurston’s last three years at AAA he’s wOBA’d in the .350s). Greene’s OPS and wOBA are lower than Thurston’s this year. He has a great glove but his bat is probably going to be sub-Izturis.
Honestly, you can’t even argue that Tyler Greene is a better hitter than Thurston, he just isn’t. It’s not even close, in fact.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 3, 2009 5:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
doesn't Thurston at sometime have to show a hint that he can hit ML piching though?
it isn’t like he has been in a 2 week slump, he has been weak with that bat for months now. How much time to you give him to come out of it? I love projections from the minors to the majors, but at some point the production has to override the projection.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 4, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's been proven that a prolonged slump in not predictive of future performance
Instead, it is something to be factored (slightly) into a players projection. Let’s just look at some guys in the majors who had horrible, horrible slumps to start the season:
Derrek Lee
BJ Upton
David Ortiz
Tell me what you see in those links.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 4, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but
which of the possible internal options have shown they can hit major league pitching? Ryan’s a slap-hitter who’s been quite lucky this year, and has broadly sucked in his parts-of-3-seasons major league career. I think he’s figures things out a bit this year but, realistically, he is a bad hitter and always will be.
Tyler Greene is an appalling hitter. He was poor in the minors, with a skillset (contact hitting, free swinging, TONS of Ks, very few BBs) that traditionally transitions badly to the majors, and, guess what, he’s totally stunk up the joint against major league pitching.
Craig hasn’t played third base at all this year, and hasn’t hit especially well in AAA. I’d happily see him up, but I’m under no illusions that he’ll be much better than Thurston, but yeah, it might be worth a go (at least he could take some of Dunc’s starts in LF).
Barden is another guy who I think might’ve been sent down a bit soon, he was slumping, but after a month of limited playing time. Solid glove, versatile, and has a better approach at the plate, I think both he and Hoffpauir should get a bit of a chance to play but realistically both are backup players (at best), and Barden’s been injured recently. Also, he kinda stunk with the bat when he was up earlier in the year.
Freese is injured. Mather is injured. Wallace isn’t ready and has a bad glove at 3B.
Yeah, Thurston sucks. He shouldn’t be playing everyday. But I don’t think any of the non-DeRosa alternatives are likely to do much better.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 5, 2009 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No brainer
I like the guy, but he’s gotta go.
THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!
by stltrav09 on Jul 2, 2009 12:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thurston is only playing
because plans A, B, and C at third base (ie Glaus, Freese, and Mather) are all on the disabled list. for that matter, you could say plan D (khalil greene) is disabled too. so thurston is plan E. if the team had better options, he wouldn’t be playing.
and in thurston’s defense, he has decent secondary stats - an OBP of .327 and an isolated power of about .140, which are not terrible figures. his wOBA (to use the latest super stat) is .301, better than any of the other healthy candidates to play 3b - barden posted a .298, tyler greene a .288.
if you junk plan E and the only available option is plan F, i don’t see how it improves the team.
by lboros on Jul 2, 2009 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hurt for now.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 2, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
derosa was only acquired a few days ago
the author is asking “why has joe thurston played 71 of the first 80 games” ?? and the answer is that the top 3 or 4 options were injured, leaving thurston to compete for playing time with tyler greene and brian barden. in that competition, thurston is arguably the best option.
now the d-ro is here, thurston’s playing time will go down -- but when d-ro starts in left field, thurston will probably make a few starts at 3b.
despite the low bating average, thurston’s OBP and SLG are about equivalent to what aaron miles’ were:
thston 2009: .327 obp, .353 slg
miles 2008: .355 obp, .398 slg
miles 2007: .328 obp, .348 slg
miles 2006: .324 obp, .347 slg
not a ringing endorsement, of course, because miles isn’t much a player. . . . .
by lboros on Jul 2, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for that matter
compare thurston to abe nunez when he filled in for rolen in the last half of 2005:
thustn 2009: .327 obp, .353 slg
nunez 2005: .343 obp, .361 slg
sometimes you have to look past the batting average . . . .
by lboros on Jul 2, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t suggest this.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 2, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he meant the author of the OP
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 4, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
mr f?
i don’t see how tobias funke is going to help the team
kidding… kidding…
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jul 2, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this
Thurston is not responding, not colaborating, and is barely doing his job. Yesterday´s game proves this point with his 3 K´s, one being in a clutch moment of the game. Thurston is clogging, to me, 3B which could be filled by Tyler Greene or Hoffpauir at the moment. Later on, of course, DeRosa. And once DeRo is back, there is simply no spot on this team where Thurston will contribute. SS seems to be Brendan’s, 2B is for Schumacher and the outfield seems to be already crowded. I say that once DeRo can play, we do whatever we can to prevent another outing by Thursotn in St. Louis… Unless, of course, he is playing for a visiting team. Which would be benefitial for us, to say the least.
Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!
by Paulspike on Jul 2, 2009 1:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hoffpauir is not a third baseman
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 3, 2009 5:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Contragulations!
You managed to use “clutch” and “clogging” in the same sentence. You’re still not as good as Murray Chass though.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 4, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some Are Forgetting
that Thurston played LF the other night while Rasmus, Schumaker, and Duncan sat. Rasmus was suppose to be unavailable and then came into the game to get two hits late. No way should Thurston be starting in LF period, but he played there with Schumaker sitting on the bench. This is the problem with Tony. Sure there are not many options for 3B until DeRosa comes back but don’t forget all the other times that Thurston has played when there were other options.
This team clearly needs another player although DeRosa will help a lot when he comes back. Even though the team needs another player part of the problem is the crazy substitution pattern. Rasmus and Ludwick have benched to much while Duncan and Ankiel have been played way to much. When is enough – surely Ludwick and Rasmus will get consistent playing time now but who knows with Tony LaRussa managing.
To answer the question – Yes there are better internal options and Thurston should have been released a long time ago.
by Warcard on Jul 2, 2009 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
don’t forget all the other times that Thurston has played when there were other options.
i was frustrated earlier this season about barden not getting playing time, but at this point i doubt many people are going to stand up and say we need to recall him from memphis. these brendan ryan and tyler greene-at-3b theories are just robbing peter to pay paul — we have a pretty sparse supply of players at 2b and ss. maybe hoffpauir surprises everybody, but
To answer the question – Yes there are better internal options and Thurston should have been released a long time ago.
simply claiming there are better internal options without actually pointing one out is ridiculous. i do agree about LF – nobody wants to see thurston in LF, but i can only recall two instances of that.
generally, all this thurston-bashing has just been fist-pounding rather than serious discussion of other options. if people want to see a brendan ryan at 3b, tyler greene at ss, and skippy at 2b infield, with joe and hoffpauir as our backup, i guess that would be somewhat palatable. but that’s not a panacea — we’re introducing tyler’s still developing bat on a daily basis. and i sure don’t see the outright dismissal of joe to memphis or out of the system as a solution. he remains a replacement value player (taking his baserunning into account) in an area where we have pretty limited resources.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 2, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thurston by the numbers.
He’s not going to get better, ever. I’d rather see him off the team entirely at this point, replaced by Hoffpauer, Craig, someone off the scrapheap, whatever.
Joe’s slashline for his last 28 days: .113/.217/.170/.386. Can anyone really defend a line like that? That’s 23 games, 62 AB, so not quite full time. If you want more:
April: .278/.371/.407/.778 (54 AB)
May: .209/.338/.403/.741 (67 AB)
June: .194/.296/.274/.570 (62 AB)
Yes, they’re all small sample size, but at this point, I agree with the sentiment of the original post. Addition by subtraction. He isn’t adding any value to this team any more – and in fact, his June numbers are brought up a bunch by 1 good game on June 1st where he hit 25% of his hits for June – 3 hits, 2 2B and a 1B. That’s sad.
by rencelas on Jul 2, 2009 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
craig is on the dl.
hoffpauir is a very poor second baseman – which means he’d likely be an even worse 3b – and has no ML track record at all for you to fairly compare him to thurston. if you want to compare thurston’s AAA numbers to hoffpauir’s, be my guest.
nobody thinks thurston is a long-term 3b, but you need to come up with realistic ideas. the reason thurston is at 3b is because there aren’t great options.
and even in his worst month, he’s still getting on base .296 of the time, which on this team, is not bad. it puts him ahead of rick ankiel, tyler greene, khalil greene, and ryan ludwick. june has been a bad month for everybody whose name doesn’t rhyme with “shoe poles” or “plazmess.”
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 2, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or
“stanklin”?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 2, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was thinking position players, but yes.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 2, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good post tom
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 3, 2009 5:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jul 2, 2009 8:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good post on the overall dreariness of the team. Recall moving into spring the optimism was brimming with . .
third base and outfield expectations. Who ended a sit com with, "What a revolting development this turned out to be. . . . "?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 3, 2009 5:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thurston does take his walks
When you’re dealing with a pool of hitters this crappy, OBP actually becomes a better measure when trying to define their offensive usefulness. Last I looked, Thurston was 6th on the team in OBP. Baserunning blunders aside, at least Thurston is getting on base in between his weak grounders and pop outs. The other guys just give you weak grounders and pop outs.
by olddomination on Jul 3, 2009 5:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thurston isn't that great
He’s a bozo on the bases, a poor 3rd baseman, and he’s not a very good hitter.
BUT: we must remember that Joe Thurston is a career 2nd baseman who is being asked, neigh, forced to play third base because Glaus, Mather, Freese all went down with injuries or were ineffective and then got hurt. La Russa probably should have given more PT to Barden, but he’s not been very good either so it’s probably an moot point anyway. TLR tried Khalil Greene there, but Greene isn’t psychologically ready to play ML baseball yet, at least if the FO is to be believed on the issue (and no reason not to if you ask me…). He’s tried Greene T (my new nickname for the guy, hopefully it sticks!!!), but he’s just not any kind of good hitter. They brought in DeRosa, and damn it all if he doesn’t turn around and get hurt! By my count, six guys have been considered better options than Thurston, and all 6 are completely unavailable.
So what can you do at this point? Yeah, Thurston isn’t a good fielder over there and doesn’t bring much to the table but a respectable eye…but someone has to play third! It’s not Thurston’s fault he’s not that great…it’s La Russa’s fault for playing him there if he’s got better options, and it’s fate’s fault that he’s playing there if there aren’t better options.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 4, 2009 1:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent comment
I would also like to add that Thurston isn’t the worst player in the world, like people here are making him out to be.
His current WAR is 0.3. Prorate that to a full season, and he is basically playing like a 1 WAR player. However, he also has a .262 BABIP and will likely improve at third defensively as he was an above average second baseman. I could see him approaching league average numbers at the end of the season.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 4, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I don’t like thurston and believe (broadly) he sucks as a MLB 3B and should be used as a backup player, but realistically I think Ankiel and Duncan are much bigger issues right now.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 5, 2009 6:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
It still seems that Ankiel has some upside, especially because he can be an above average defender in a corner; but Duncan seems like a lost cause to me. He hasn’t hit in 2 years (whether the fault of injury or not, there is clearly something wrong with his power) and he is still a -10 defender in left.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 5, 2009 6:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cardsray's comment is excellent and applicable
but I would tweak it by calling for “addition by subtraction… PLUS promotion.”
Call up the Walrus…asap. It’s not like he is being asked to repalce a major cog… not, for instance, a situation where he would be replacing a Troy Glaus.
There has BEEN NO Troy Glaus all year
No pressure. To hell with that one year closer to free agency bit; we need Wallace NOW
by the Tewk on Jul 6, 2009 2:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
Related FanPosts on Viva El Birdos
Related FanShots on Viva El Birdos
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
