Khalil Greene set to play in AA Springfield tonight
As the plot thickens, the Khalil Greene Strange Interview Tour makes an unscheduled appearance in Springfield:
St. Louis Cardinals infielder Khalil Greene is not scheduled to play tonight, but he's looking forward to getting back on the field in the minors. He came up through the Padres organization, so he didn't get to play in the Texas League.
"It's fun, to be honest with you, to play in a place I've never played before," Greene said. "I've never been to this stadium or been to this league. It's always neat, I think, getting a chance to come back. I'm starting to see the differences in the levels and how the game is approached. ... It's interesting, just from a sociological standpoint."
What's to say at this point? For this team a marginally effective third baseman, like Khalil Greene sans anxiety issues, would be a major upgrade. But it's not worth guessing, at this point, what he'll be able to do, and more seriously how he'll be able to cope when he's not quite doing it. I don't know if this is the right way to deal with Greene's condition, but then a) I hardly know Greene's condition and b) if intuition were still the way we dealt with medical problems Team Barber Paletta would be bleeding the sickness out of him.
(Not that I can confirm that isn't the way it's being dealt with.)
I'll hope for the best; in the meantime, I'll expect nothing. Afternoon thread, edited to account for this news, up in the afternoon.
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I feel sympathy for this guy, but...
The club is paying him +6M this year to play in the major leagues. I’m glad he thinks its “fun” to spend some time in Springfield, but somehow I don’t think his priorities are right on this one.
It will never happen, but I wish there was the will and a way for Khalil to talk with the union, return the bulk of his contract, accept a minor league contract and work his way back up through the system. That would take the “pressure” off performing, and give him time to get his groove back. (Yeah, I know, wishful thinking.)
by JWO on Jul 17, 2009 8:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that discounts the severity of a mental condition
I think he’s just trying to get in a positive state of mind. Or at least trying to take his mind off his poor playing by focusing on the change of scenery.
R.P.O.F.Y.M.
by BVHeck on Jul 17, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I think he’s just saying things to 1) try and be positive and 2) try and convince his bosses and everyone else he’s positive.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strange quote, indeed.
It almost sounds like an outlook pushed by a therapist.
“Khalil, Just look at it as an enjoyable experience. Its a new stadium, a new league, and a new start.”
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 17, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it does.
Better than saying “I hate this f@#kin’ place” I guess.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you do that?
‘Cause I’m not in the habit of turning down $6m.
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I can’t fault the guy for that. He signed a contract, the money is his. The best we can hope for is that he’s getting help and trying his best, and we have no reason to believe he isn’t doing that. Tough situation, I admit, but it’s not cause enough to get in the “return the money” bandwagon
by mattyp on Jul 17, 2009 9:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It might be a little dicier than that.
Yes, he signed a contract that pays him 6 M dollars. However, that contract also implies that he’s going to be playing baseball at the major league level to earn that 6 M dollars which he currently is not doing.
Remember, there are always two sides to a contract and there are obligations by both sides. Unfortunately for the club, the contracts are guaranteed but that doesn’t mean Khalil is upholding his part of the deal.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I get what you are saying
But the contract doesn’t condition payment on Khalil’s completion of a full season of service in the majors. Although I haven’t read his contract, there’s no way it can. What it probably requires is for Khalil to use his best efforts in playing – ie: he can’t sit on his ass and not show up for practices, batting practice, etc. As long as he’s putting forth his best efforts, I really don’t see how its all that dicey at all. Its an injury, albeit a mental one.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that happens all the time
Players sign deals and then play at sub-ML levels all the time. None of them give the money back. Yes, Khalil happens to be suffering from anxiety, but the point is that just because we didn’t get what we hoped for doesn’t mean he’s obligated in any sense to give the money back. The Yankees didn’t get their money back from Pavano, either.
This is the whole concept behind a guaranteed contract. Saying he should give the money back is ridiculous. He signed the deal knowing that come hell, career-ending injury, or high water, he was going to get that money. If that guarantee hadn’t been in place, likely the contract would have been structured differently, don’t you think?
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying he should or shouldn't give the money back.
I was addressing the statement that “he signed the contract so the money is his”. Well, he signed a contract to play baseball for x amount of seasons. Which is also why I used the word “dicey” since this isn’t a cut and dry situation and leaves a lot to interpretation.
I know the Padres were at one point going to file a grievance or something against him to make him pay back his 2008 salary. They didn’t for whatever reason. But, if you are deemed to be healthy enough to play and you aren’t, then you are not fulfilling your part of the contract. Guaranteed or not. Unfortunately for the team, this really comes down to whether Khalil feels well enough to play. There is no test you can run and there is no doctor who can make a 100% (or even close) statement that he is or isn’t ready to play.
Ultimately it’s all up to Khalil.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The front office and the MLBPA would never allow him to give the money back.
Contracts are guaranteed and Khalil would absolutely be playing at or above the value of his contract if he could. It’s in his own best interest, and there is an implication in your argument that he doesn’t deserve the money. That’s not for us to decide as the legal nature of the contract states that he does deserve the money, and that more importantly it should not be a point of discussion as long as his problems are real.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not buying it.
I know the Cards aren’t going to try to get their money back. Honestly, it’s Mo’s fault they’re in this situation. But, the contract doesn’t say he gets the money no matter what.
By guaranteeing the contract, the team is obligated to pay the player whether they want him or not (unless another team takes the contract). However, it does not guarantee he’ll get payed if he decides not to play (i.e., a retirement or simply quitting baseball).
I’m bringing this up (and no one has yet to address what I’ve asked or stated), this whole “injury” is based on his own self diagnosis. There are no medical tests to say “he is healthy enough to play” or “he is still injured”. Ultimately, it’s his decision. And that’s what makes this a “dicey” situation.
The team has to take his word for it and as long as he says he’s “trying” then the team has to pay him even if he has no intention of ever playing baseball again. Yet, if this were a broken arm, and the x-rays said the break had healed and he was passing physicals but the player said he didn’t feel healed or was not coming back, then you could get the player on breach of contract.
In this case, there is proof that the player is healthy enough to play yet he’s not. In Khalil’s case, we just have to take him at his word.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your ignorance of mental health is bordering on insult,
so I suggest you choose your next words carefully.
Khalil Greene has been very bad this season. That point can satisfy even your willful blindness. His stint on the DL is more helpful to the team than his riding the bench, but your implication that he is dogging it, making up the injury, and riding around the minor leagues just so he can collect $6M without “working” is bullshit. It’s in his best interest to play. He’s in the last year of a contract and should presumably be looking forward to signing an even longer, even more lucrative one this winter. His secret evil plan to fleece the Cardinals of $6M is costing him far more than it is helping him.
Furthermore, there are dozens of injuries that you are forced to “take the player’s word on”. Essentially every complex shoulder injury involves a drawn out “well, the MRI showed no structural damage, we’re going to rest it and try again soon” drama. The first and most obvious indicator is that he has been horrible at playing the game of baseball. No one was trying to say Mark Mulder was just making his injury up despite the fact that he was repeatedly declared healthy and then came back only to post an ERA of 15. And Mark Mulder constantly pushed the timetables, baseball players always push the timetables, because they want to be normal and they want to play baseball.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice.
Never once did I say he was dogging it or making it up. Are we so protective and PC that we can’t ask questions about a situation? Have you followed along? Did you not notice I only threw out examples since I was trying to convey why this wasn’t a cut and dry issue and why I said it was “dicey”?
Or maybe I should just close my eyes and think he or anyone else in the world is totally beyond deceit or manipulation of a situation. I’ve known cutters and they were anything but forthright about their injuries and did a hell of a job to hide it until they wanted it to be seen (and, no, i’m not accusing him of being a cutter since we haven’t really been given any solid information, just veiled statements from him and a comment from a teammate).
But what I find amazing is that you assume first of all, that every one is motivated by money and secondly that he absolutely, 100% wants to continue his baseball career. That’s complete speculation.
There are instances of professional athletes who give up their careers because they no longer enjoy the game (i.e., job) and would give up the money to get away from the spotlight and the pressure or maybe the grind of the game. And before you accuse me of labeling Khalil, please note that I’m not. I’m speculating on a unique case and understanding that human nature is not always predictable nor is it rational.
Not once, have I accused him of doing anything. I said this was a dicey situation and tried to give examples why it could be “dicey”. Never once did I accuse him of anything.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure
that he’s under psychiatric care. And I’m sure the mental health professionals that are working with him have a diagnosis and treatment plan.
Remember – the team asked him to go on the DL. He didn’t have to. He could’ve just kept trying to play.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 17, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never once did I say he was dogging it or making it up.
The team has to take his word for it and as long as he says he’s "trying" then the team has to pay him even if he has no intention of ever playing baseball again.
You’re air quotes around trying is an implication that he is not. That counts as saying it.
this whole "injury" is based on his own self diagnosis.
Not once, have I accused him of doing anything.
the contracts are guaranteed but that doesn’t mean Khalil is upholding his part of the deal.
Okay, so you’re saying Khalil is getting paid for doing nothing, and that the injury is entirely self-diagnosed. Once again the implication is that he doesn’t want to play, but he’s self-diagnosing a nonexistent injury.
In this case, there is proof that the player is healthy enough to play yet he’s not.
Posting a .282 wOBA, a -0.5 WAR. He’s able to get onto the field but he’s not playing worth a damn. The DL stint was voluntary on his part, recommended by the team to help him cope with the issues created by his team-diagnosed anxiety problems. He’s done everything asked of him to prove his mental illness, but more importantly, where exactly do you get off accusing him of making it up? Do you have ANY evidence of that? If Khalil wanted to collect checks for doing nothing, all he would have to do is ride the bench in the way that crappy vets do all the time. Hell, Alfonso Soriano and Milton Bradley are putting up the same amount of value as Greene this season, and no-one is accusing them of secretly wanting to quit baseball. Your entire line is backward and your “skepticism” is just a cynical take without a shred of evidence to back it up.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine. I see how it is.
I have yet to make one accusation, yet you feel totally obligated to twist the words in whatever makes you happy.
If you want to go back and see where this all started, please feel free. I’ll attempt to explain it one more time and that’s it.
I originally said this was a “dicey” situation (which is my opinion and apparently not one held by anyone else since the rest of the VEB community seems to see this as a straight-forward and clear-cut situation) and when questioned why or how i could make such a statement, I gave example of what could possibly happen since there is no CT scan or x-ray or medical test (other than running him out there and see what happens) to show a reasonable level of health. Prodded further, I kept talking and giving more examples until you decided I was on a witch hunt or something.
Really, it’s tired. Because I never said “Khalil is faking it” nor did I say “Khalil made up his condition and is trying to steal money from the Cardinals”. What I did say was that there was no way to really know and honestly, it’s kinda lame that you are trying so hard to make the connection to me indicting him for the sole purpose of wanting to argue today.
You’re air quotes around trying is an implication that he is not. That counts as saying it.
Really? Are we taking things this literal today? I didn’t know. I also used quotes around the word “injury” because Ray Lankford did it first but you didn’t seem to have an issue with that one. And, for the record, I’m using quotation marks around the word because it’s a subjective term. My personal definition of if I’m “trying” is different than what your definition would be, and what everyone else’s definition would be. Just saying “I’m trying” really means nothing because you have to take the person’s word for their effort. You really can’t know.
(Awesome. I just re-read that last paragraph and i realized you are going to accuse me of saying that Khalil is a liar or something else. Well, I’m not. So, save it.)
Anyway, this whole thing started out as being hypothetical yet you seem to be hell bent on distorting it into something you can take a stand against which apparently gives you the right call to me ignorant and shit like that. It’s tiresome really. But, if it’s made your day, then all is good, I suppose.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think you're underestimating
The unreliability of psychological testing and the reliability of physical tests. Psychologists don’t just ask, “do you have anxiety?” And go with what the patient tells them. Part of screening includes trying to discern who is malingering and who is truthful. To say this is all self-reporting is likely untrue.
Further, while a bone break is verifiable, a lot of soft-tissue injuries are hard to verify, or their severity is hard to verify. Whether a pitcher goes back on the field frequently depends, not on a scan but on whether his arm hurts when he throws. I’ve seen pitchers accused in the press(pavano) of not being “tough enough” to pitch through pain. We actually refer to self-reporting on physical injuries often.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 12:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
anxiety
I have worked with a brave and exceptionally talented colleague who has anxiety issues. His anxiety issues are not merely “self-diagnosed,” and I admire his dedication in the face of genuine barriers to performing a job he loves.
I don’t know what goes through Khalil Greene’s mind, but I don’t find it hard to accept that he wants very much to play, and is likely harder on himself than we can imagine.
by madridbend on Jul 17, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He may very well want to play
But you or I or anyone else has no idea and can only take his word for what it is. I’m not saying I don’t believe him or doubt him, I’m simply saying you cannot know a person’s true motivation or meaning no matter how well you know them.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that can be said
for any player who isn’t performing. the effort in trying to determine whether it’s true or not is so futile, that it’s pointless for you to bring it up. maybe ank doesn’t want to play. dunc? welly? let’s indict them all if we’re indicting kaheel
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow.
you’re not buying it?
no proof?
have to take at his word?
come on – that’s uncalled for. is the fact that he was physically abusing himself after a bad day at the plate not at least raise you suspicion level? it’s fair to say that maybe Mo didn’t have the entire “health” history on this guy because it sounds like psych screening hasn’t been occurring with any regularity – because the front office has admitted as much.
this is something that affects his performance on the field, but also his life outside of baseball and oftentimes in patients like this their physical well-being. Your comparison to a broken arm is very off track. honestly I think that finding a way to reframe his way of thinking is probably a good thing, although this case would be surprising if medications were not the primary intervention. I am surprised how quickly they are trying to bring him back (again).
by ribbij on Jul 17, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is this so difficult to understand.
I never said he was faking his condition.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. You just implied that he might be.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 17, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope.
I said it was a possibility since we can never now the true intentions of a person (any person). This has nothing to do with Khalil as a person, but more about human nature. That’s not “implying”. That is saying there is a chance something can happen or won’t happen. By “implying” I would say that I “think he’s faking” or “It wouldn’t surprise me if he were faking”.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you don't understand
the meaning of the word “imply”
your examples would be you directly stating that you think he’s faking. not quite an implication, now is it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should have specified
I wasn’t really replying to you, more to the thread in general, just so you don’t think I was arguing with your post.
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't the NFL
MLB contracts are guaranteed. He’s getting his money unless he retires. And if he tries to retire, his union most likely wouldn’t let him.
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for pointing that out.
But since you might have missed it. I wrote.
Unfortunately for the club, the contracts are guaranteed
However, if he refuses to play, then the team doesn’t have to pay him.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that's not what's happening though
He’s not refusing to play. The team put him on the DL, because he’s “injured.” I only put it in quotes because its not a traditional injury, but there’s little doubt that it is an injury.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get that it's not a "traditional" injury.
But who determines when he’s healthy enough to play? Or how long he will be “injured”? Does he have to pass a physical? Can they take an x-ray of his noggin?
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest, I don't really know how you determine when he's ready to play
That’s a tough question. But the point I’m making is that you can’t say, “well, he’s just not trying, and since he’s not playing at the MLB level, he’s not due his salary.”
Dude’s already tried to come back once, and apparently the team saw something they didn’t like, so they DL’d him. Now he’s starting a second rehab assignment at the team’s direction. Khalil has done everything asked of him, except control an anxiety disorder, and I gather that he’s trying to do that.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, they did DL him
but in this type of case, he has to 1) agree to go on the DL and 2) agree to stay on the DL. If he didn’t want to be DL’d, they couldn’t force him and when his 15 days are up, they can’t keep him there against his will or make him go on a rehab assignment.
And what they saw wrong was probably the 0 for 13 or whatever it was and his reaction to everything surrounding it. They then offered the DL and he took it. And honestly, you (or none of us) have any idea if he’s done everything asked of him or is actually trying to get better. There’s only one person who knows that for sure and his name is Khalil. It’s hard to take him at his word because people who self mutilate or whatever it is he was doing are good at deception.
Needless to say, I still stand by my original statement that this is a “dicey” situation. I wish the guy well but I’m just looking at this from what I see as a realistic viewpoint and that’s that you can’t always take people for their word and you’ll never really know a person’s true intentions. Maybe I’m just too much a skeptic.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly can't tell if you are just doing this to stir up argument or not
I’ll echo hazel above and note that your description of mental health issues could be insulting. I trust you don’t mean to be.
Surely you realize that mental health issues can pose serious, even lifethreatening consequences. In fact, you point out that Khalil is rumored to be a cutter.
Now, with that in mind, I’m sure you’ve considered the possibility that the Cards have Khalil working with a psychologist or psychiatrist to evaluate his mental wellbeing. However, I’m sure that in your opinion, psychologists and psychiatrists are nothing more than snake oil salesmen and women. After all, the only one who knows if they are trying to overcome their problems is the patient himself.
Just so we are clear, your theory is that a man with mental health problems serious enough to self-mutilate is deliberately manifesting his symptoms so that the club will 1) find out and 2) “suggest” that he be put on the DL. You also speculate that he is deliberately not making progress in his recovery so that he can play ball in the minor leagues and collect a check, notwithstanding the fact that he’s in the last year of his contract.
If that’s really what you believe, then cool. We’ll agree to disagree.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've not said any of that.
Btw, thank you for being at least civil.
All I originally stated was that this was a “dicey” situation since there are no parameters or guidelines and there really are no tests (other than putting his ass out there and seeing if he can handle it at the major league level).
When probed how I could possibly think this is anything different than a regular ol’ “injury”, I tried to give examples as to what could happen that make it different. Apparently, my reasoning was totally uncalled for “bullshit” and I’ve got my head up my ass or something and just offended every human being on the planet. I don’t know. I tried to explain myself but I’ve realized some are either too sensitive to think anyone could manipulate anything or that they simply would rather only think only positive thoughts.
Whatever. I really don’t give a shit anymore. I hope Khalil the best and that’s all I can really say.
It’s unfortunate that since I find this case to be unique and without any parameters I’m an ignoramus, but it just goes to show you that if someone doesn’t like what you have to say, they have every right to call you ignorant.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not that people are too sensitive or willfully blind to your theory
Honestly, it just doesn’t make sense to me, and probably other people too. I’m really not trying to be a dick, but as I described in my post above, if that really is your theory, then that’s cool – just be a little more mindful of the rhetoric you use to describe people with mental health issues.
I’m a skeptic myself, but there really aren’t any indications that I’ve seen that Khalil has been manipulative in any way. I don’t want to rehash it all, but that’s our fundamental difference of opinion, I think. Also, Joey Votto was also sidelined this year with anxiety problems. It happens. Doesn’t mean there are nefarious motives at play.
Also, people aren’t calling you ignorant because they don’t like what you are saying. They are calling you ignorant because your discussion of mental health problems reflects a misunderstanding of or lack of knowledge about them. Again, not to be a dick, but its the proper use of the term.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then should I be able to call someone ignorant
if they can’t understand that I’ve never accused him of anything yet continue to give me made up examples of how I did?
I’m sorry I ever put this to words. I really am. But people on here accuse Chris Duncan and Rick Ankiel and a host of other player for not being honest about their health, why should we have to take Khalil’s word one way or another.
And, I’m still not accusing him of anything. Please understand that. And yes, I’ve spoken in fairly vague terms and if that’s what has pissed everyone off then I apologize. But, I’m so damn annoyed at having people twist my meaning into something it isn’t, I’ve come to my wits end with this bullshit and I’m tired of explaining myself.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
people accuse ank of playing when he’s not healthy enough to. not really the same thing and you know it. spare us
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose I can apologize for being less than charitable and profane.
But as RL said, it’s not as though this case is “unique and without any parameters”. Greinke, Votto, and Willis among others have all had relatively high-profile anxiety issues. Meanwhile there are plenty of players collecting large salaries and failing to produce (Soriano, Bradley). It just seems to me to be a non-sequitur to start calling someone a liar for having both.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never called him a liar.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because you are being ignorant
even if we assume your proposed theory that he’s a cutter and being willfully deceptive, that’s a symptom of his condition and is good enough for me to keep him out of the pressures of the MLB until he can get his shit together. this isn’t about the cardinals and the contract anymore. this is about khalil’s well being. people who cut themselves are not healthy enough to be on the roster. now, whether he’s manipulating the situation and intentionally trying to be DLed is not the point. he needs to be DLed if he is self mutilating. simple as
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if it's about his well being, why does he not just retire
and do something else?
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i guess
because he wants to play baseball. you’d have to ask him
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just popped into my head
sort of a rhetorical question I suppose
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly
in the end, leaving baseball might be good for him. he’s made enough money that he could never work again. i’d like to see him pull it together, though, and have a lucrative career
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This has nothing to do with "if" he's manipulating the situation?
Why not?
And it’s not “my” theory. I wasn’t the only one to come to that conclusion or the first to write it. But thanks for putting that on me as well.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hold the deal!
I did not want to get into this argument but let’s call a spade a spade. Tackle box is not trying to stir up an argument. He is only trying to defend himself from a couple of “know it Alls” that want to misinterpet what he has really said and start a fracas to bring attention to themselves.
I probably have more experience with mental illness than anybody on this site (having to deal with it in my family for close to 20 years) and I have reread his orginal post closely and I kind of see what he was saying. Certainly not enough wrong to launch the attack that has been leveled on him.
I read what he said,to it for an opinion and moved on..but no, this site has a few attack dogs and a few that like to tag along and pile on….get a life.
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm fine with this post up to get a life
Personal attacks are as unnecessary here as they are anywhere else in the argument that precipitated this post.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 17, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right Danup
I got a little too heated. my error.
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
this is semantics bickering, recd
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The semantic difference between,
“he is being deliberately deceptive”
and
“he is lieing”
does not make this semantics bickering.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*lying
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 18, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saying that the mentally ill are “good at deception” is unfounded and just ignorant. I don’t know why you’d say that. I think you need to think hard about whether you just called a number of people on this board liars. And probably apologize.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 12:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I said cutters are good at deception.
They do it. They hide it. They deny it. If you don’t want to accept that, then I’m not the one who’s ignorant.
Please stop twisting my words
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so basically
people who have things they are embarrassed of are good at deception
solid
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
Way to go global with that statement.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but you're not accusing him of hiding or denying his
problem . you’re suggesting that the situation is “dicey” because he may be untruthful when he says he is having symptoms of anxiety. there’s no reason to say that.
Disguising health problems is not the exclusive territory of the mentally ill. duncan, ankiel, isringhausen, mulder, etc. have all said they didn’t have a “problem” at various points. you might as well have said that baseball players have a problem with not disclosing injuries.
also, why would you accept that he’s a “cutter” without proof, yet say that it’s dicey that he’s actually so afflicted that he can’t play? the logic there is pretty circular.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fantastic.
This quote is taken directly from my own post.
(and, no, i’m not accusing him of being a cutter since we haven’t really been given any solid information, just veiled statements from him and a comment from a teammate).
And here’s the original story by Joe Strauss.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tackle box
how would you characterize your own feelings on the matter? this quoting and response is only making things less clear; it might help to just rewrite, once and for all, your opinion about this.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 17, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've tried to and it only seems to make matters worse.
But thanks DanUp for calling a timeout.
All i’ve said all along is that this is not a typical situation. It’s a mental disorder and that in turn makes it a much more difficult situation to read (either as an amateur or professional). It’s also much harder for the Cardinals and MLB to address since there is not protocol or really anything more than a handful of cases we’ve heard about. Some ending well, some not so much. But, there are also a lot of cases that go un-noticed or pushed aside due to either camouflaging the signs or simply leaving the game before it’s diagnosed.
I also noted that since this falls under “mental health”, there is much less that is know about the causes, severity, chance of relapse, and cure as a whole and on a personnel level. Each case is different. Granted, so are physical injuries, but there is a lot more knowledge about most physical injuries and how to heal than there are about mental conditions.
Finally, I tried to make statements about people in general. There are some subjective terms out there like “trying” and “healthy” especially when it comes to mental health. “Trying” to one person is totally different than “trying” is to another person. Same with “health”. If someone doesn’t know what it feels like to be “healthy” mentally, then it’s difficult to understand if and when they truly become healthy and for how long that might last.
Also, we’ll never be able to truly know one’s true state of mind, intentions, or motivations. We can only take them at their word and you have to use judgement (or blind faith) as to whether you believe them or trust them.
Once again, these are general statements and were no way an implication of what I believe Khalil is up to. There are always possibilities and I feel that if you don’t at the very least consider all possibilities, then you are at fault when something you didn’t foresee happens.
Sorry for being long winded and while I’m not quite as eloquent as many here, I’m trying to be as clear about my meaning as possible (here and in above comments).
Thanks again DanUp. If I’m offbase in a way that is totally offensive please let me know. I didn’t think I was.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good points
mental health is completely subjective
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
although
when you word it “what he is up to” that just makes you sound paranoid
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
acknowledged
I didn’t mean to “imply” anything with that.
Should have said,
Once again, these are general statements and were no way an implication that Khalil is up to anything.
Plus, I ended that sentence with a preposition so it should be apparent i didn’t really proof read what I wrote……
I’m just tired of this whole damn thing and realized you’re probably the only person other than DanUp who will take the time to actually read what I wrote. It’s long and it comes at the bottom of this entire thread. Kind of a wasted effort probably.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems to me you're the one
the brains, Tackle Box
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
why would he be a pitch?
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saying that the mentally ill
are good at deception is NOT unfounded and ignorant. It is excepted as real among therapist. A mentally ill person can be very cunning and deceptive. You just have to weed out whether he really ill or is it fake but the deception is there either way.
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference between saying "people with mental
illness are prone to hide their illness" and saying that they are generally prone to deception. Hiding mental illness does not come from being dishonest because you’re mentally ill; it comes from the social shame and stigma associated with it. That’s why some victims of sexual abuse or rape, some gay people, other people who have any kind of stigmatized condition or status will try to hide it.
and tackle box wasn’t arguing that khalil was trying to hide his condition; he was arguing at least the possibility that khalil was doing the opposite, in falsely promoting the severity of his illness. there’s no research or founded basis for saying that mentally ill people as a group are prone to be untrustworthy in general.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go back and read what you posted
That’s what i took issue with and if you are careless with your posting can’t you overlook Tackle Box in his. I’m not sure he was arguing what you say anyway. I missed it. show me the quote/
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the quote:
There’s only one person who knows that for sure and his name is Khalil. It’s hard to take him at his word because people who self mutilate or whatever it is he was doing are good at deception.
saying that somebody is “hard to take at his word” because he has anxiety or cuts himself is a pretty serious dig at people with mental illness.
i stand by what i said before. i think it was fair. i don’t think it was careless.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see what you're saying.
But I still think you’re mis-representing my words.
My comments were in regards to his mental health and if someone in this condition is actually getting better and whether or not they’re back to hiding what they’ve been doing and being forthright about it.
From what I can read, you are making a pretty big jump by interpreting my words as “cutter = liars”.
“hard to take at his word” in general? No. In regards to his mental health? Quite possibly.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what, in relation to his mental illness, makes
you think he would exaggerate his condition?
i realize there’s $6.5M at stake, or boredom/disinterest with baseball. but that wasn’t your premise. those are real possibilities, but have nothing to do with mental illness.
your premise – and i am trying to be very fair here – was that somehow his mental illness impacted your ability to trust that his symptoms were as BAD as they are. how so? what about his illness make you think he would exaggerate?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, that's a seperate topic.
Regarding my comments about him getting better are what I was talking about here. He’s already tried to disguise it in the past, who’s to really know if he’s disguising it now or has found a new outlet that’s just as damaging but less noticeable (keep in mind, I’m saying “he” and “him” but am speaking more generally about people with this condition).
As for his motivation to get back, this is where the question of one’s personal motivation comes in to play. People with his condition are apparently hard on themselves, right? Have a hard time accepting failure or might perceive a failure to be much grander than it might actually be. Well, someone like this might actually be scared to go back to where he had so many problems but could be afraid to let his family or the team down with his failures. Since he might know that there’s a very real possibility he could fall into the same situation.
You don’t have to be a cutter or have a mental illness to feel the pressure to be strong for your family or team or company or whatever. It’s hard enough for some people to cope who are considered mentally “healthy”. For him or someone like him, it might even be greater than what he feels like when he fails. Like every strike out is big, but telling your parents or MO or whoever you’re scared to try it again could actually be worse.
I don’t know and I don’t pretend to know. What I do know is that there are people who stay in jobs (even baseball) when they really don’t like what they do but feel an obligation or something to not let others down.
I don’t know, it’s all speculation and not directed at Khalil specifically (although his situation has made me think much more about the topic than I have before), but there are a lot of factors in play and i think it’s at least worth it to be aware of different possibilities.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i still am pretty mystified by what
your original comments have to do with this comment. it seems like you’re still giving reasons for why he would conceal his illness rather than pretend it is a bigger deal than it is – your comments about being afraid to tell Mo that he’s scared to try, for instance, suggest he would conceal his symptoms, not exaggerate them.
i guess i will just accept that i am somehow misunderstanding your point. clearly, i was not the only one who was bugged by your comments.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
an anxiety disorder
is not the same as the day to day stress one feels at their job. it’s going grocery shopping at 3 am because you can handle being around so many people without your heart racing and feeling completely exhausted by the time you walk out of the hell hole
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but I don't get quite get
the interpertition you do. He used the term deception but did not define what kind of deception and from experience, a mentally ill person can be deceptive.
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they can be, but so can everybody else.
when someone says that a group is “good at deception,” you’re singling those people out as particularly good at deception, over and above other people.
people could very well read TB’s comment as saying that the mentally ill are sneaky and deceptive. if that’s not what he meant, he should make it clearer.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did.
It was an hour before this comment and it was a direct reply to you and you even replied to it.
I guess if you don’t want to accept it then that’s your prerogative.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look -
as far as we know, KG hasn’t pulled an A-Rod. Remember a few weeks ago when A-Rod was too fatigued to play, but was then spotted out with his lady friend at like 2:00am? THAT is malingering. Having a mental health disorder that you don’t understand is NOT.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 17, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
examples of self mutilation
I may have missed it, but where was it reported that Khalil had performed self-mutilation?
Ribbij above also refers to Khalil physically abusing himself after a bad day at the plate.
I’m only aware of him punching the cooler when he was with the Padres. I’m curious about any other published reports. I may have missed it, as I don’t live in St Louis.
by Fred Head on Jul 17, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its been widely speculated
It started, if I’m not mistaken, after he went on the DL a second time and the report referenced him inflicting self punishment. I’ve spoken to a doctor friend of mine who thinks it is pretty well accepted within the medical community that means self mutilation. I have no idea if he is correct, but I think quite a few people picked up on that, and noticed that he always wears long sleeves, etc.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't he use he phrase "self-punishment" or something similar in an interview?
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was quoted
saying something to that effect.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 17, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm looking through the archives- i thought it was in a front page story,
no luck so far.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was on stltoday.com
not stlcardinals.com, just in case you’re looking there.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 17, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the second dl stint
was reported to be a result of a “relapse”
relapse isn’t a term used for experiencing anxiety again. cutting is treated as an addiction, and therefore relapse is an appropriate term
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd have to assume
He works on it with a psychiatrist, and they decide together when he’s ready to give it a shot.
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The dude has anxiety problems
I’ve never experienced what he’s going through, thank goodness, but I’m guessing that he’s really trying to be positive and not worry about pressure or fans who think his "priorities’ aren’t what they should be. I was actually glad to see a positive quote from him, even if it was somewhat contrived, as Zou suggests.
Honestly, the least of my concerns (and I hope the Cardinals’ concerns too) are the 6 mill he’s getting paid this season.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Context is important
He was probably prompted something like, “What do you think about the Texas League?”
And, I mean, what do you expect him to say? “I hate this place! What a dump!”
I think it’s kinda amusing that he’s looking at it from a “sociological” perspective (what a strange dude), but I don’t think this indicates his priorities are out of whack. He’s just feeding the press the lines they need so they can print something.
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sociological
That was a really odd thing to say.
I think he just needs to take a tip from Albert and just stay busy all the time. No shenanigans. Idle thinking can be a killer.
by dugmartsch on Jul 17, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is ridiculous!
by that I mean, this whole super long paragraph bickering thing
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meanwhile
Is there any comparable news of DeRosa?
by StanTheManFan on Jul 17, 2009 9:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he took batting pratice yesterday
and will again today.
by Evilfrog on Jul 17, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems to me
That this is pretty good news, given that he hurt the wrist swinging.
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something else that caught my eye.
From today’s article by Strauss
DeRosa took swings indoors Thursday for the first time since going on the disabled list due to a strained tendon sheath near his left wrist.
I thought it was partially torn? Is this a new diagnosis that possibly came out after some swelling subsided? And if it is, this is definitely good news.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone correct me if I'm wrong
But I believe a strain and a partial tear are the same thing.
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
You are correct. A strained muscle is a partially torn muscle. I’m pretty sure it is the same with tendon sheaths.
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 17, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay.
I guess I interpreted it as a tear that was like 25% through the sheath or something.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a tendon strain is a tear.
if he’s not getting surgery (yet), than it still has some viability. once again, this MD doesn’t believe that he’s going to be back soon and playing at a level we all thought we were trading for.
by ribbij on Jul 17, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it popped
so it would take a really long time to heal. minor pop though I guess. woooo!
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won't woo til I see it
That’s my permanent stance with the Cardinals med staff.
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point
I will try to contain my jubilance ;)
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be activated this weekend
More likely early next week
by riotmute on Jul 17, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor KG - let the guy work out his problems where he can receive the maximum benefit without further limiting the team.
It seems like each return to the bigs is a self-fulfilling prophecy of regression. It would be great to have healthy Derosa, Greene and Glaus, but probably unrealistic to think that more than one will contribute in any significant way this year.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Jul 17, 2009 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Glaus can hit
Do you think we can get a reliever for him from an AL team? I have no idea what he’s worth, but it seems like he could make for a DH in exchange for a veteran reliever. No?
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glaus to Cleveland for Perez!
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 17, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we are trading with Cleveland, then
I want that one pitcher they have. What’s his name? Hmmm . . . the one with the flat bill . . .
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the one that just had tommy john?
I’ll take perez , thank you
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 17, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just announced that perez will have that bone spur taken off his heel this winter.
i would imagine you won’t see him before the ASB in 2010 — a shot in the dark there, but i think that’s probably realistic. somebody recently had the same “bone spur” removal . . . trying to remember . . . .
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we can get someone to take Glaus
and the remainder of his salary, I don’t care if we get anything back in return. Freeing up the payroll space should allow a far more meaningful acqusition than whatever “prospect” we could get for him.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 17, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surfer boy is ripping on Texas
The backwards people down here are interesting “from a sociological standpoint”.
He’s lucky they can’t read or his anxiety would get ratcheted up a notch.
by olddomination on Jul 17, 2009 9:44 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not really.
Since his comments weren’t directed towards the people of Texas but instead at how the league is run.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
Oh, this must have been “satire”….I’ve gotten in trouble here before over this. Please forget I said anything.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't be condescending, man
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good news
Multiple reports (Post-Dispatch, rotoworld sidebar, etc.) saying that Rasmus will not be in the trade talks for Halladay.
by stlfan on Jul 17, 2009 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought that went without saying
Rasmus is untouchable
by mysterui on Jul 17, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I'll go ahead and keep my torch and pitchfork in the shed then.
by Ray Lankford on Jul 17, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weak
I had a Flamethrower ready just in case
by mattyp on Jul 17, 2009 9:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Joel Zumaya

Was he warming up in your bullpen?
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 17, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do a kegstand bra!!!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 17, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he got hurt playing guitar hero,
let’s not have him attempting anything actually physically demanding.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm keeping my torch lit, just in case
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 17, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question...
Which player would you trade the Rookie of the Year front runner for?
maybe Justin Upton or Tim Lincecum…. but there are very few…. Definitely not Halladay!
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 17, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I had Halladay locked up for exactly a 3-year contract extension
I’d consider it. Less than that, and he’s not worth a career full of Raz. More than that, and you wind up paying for his decline phase. But on that horizon, you’d have to look carefully at making a deal. Halladays don’t grow on trees.
by StanTheManFan on Jul 17, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think may of us were worried about that.....
I really didn’t see any way the FO would move Raz in this deal. Talk about a shitty OF if that happened, even if we got VW back as well, which I’d be against.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 17, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I'm just pleased that we're trying.
It can’t hurt to try and get the guy. ANd if you get him, Pujols is saying “hey, these guys want to win and maybe I won’t be mad when they run TLR out of town.”
Or maybe I’m just paraphrasing.
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about derosa?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he has formed his opinion on the Texas league yet
by Evilfrog on Jul 17, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
supposedly he is getting better
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard he was turned into a newt
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 17, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Almost
Now Paletta is making him go fetch… ANOTHER SHRUBBERY!!! It’s part of his rehab.
And after that, he has to fell the tallest tree in the forest with… A HERRING!!!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 17, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it better not be a frozen herring
Because hello new wrist injury.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 17, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The medical staff
say he’ll be an eft by next week, but I doubt he’ll be an eft before the middle of August
www.mpgillusion.com
by ncgostl on Jul 17, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
everyone's a comedian these days
sheesh
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
K. Greene
Based on what we’ve seen this season, I’d say that it’s highly unlikely that he’ll be a Cardinal after this year. Really, I feel bad for the guy. I don’t remember seeing him having anxiety issues in San Diego, but maybe he’s been putting a lot of pressure on himself because STL is a big baseball town.
Nelly > Dunc
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 17, 2009 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not sure that's even a question
His contract is up and Brendan Ryan has better defense and is pleasing to most people.
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
O/T still Cardinal baseball related
Are we missing the emergence of Adam Wainwright as a really effing good pitcher?
With a k/9 of nearly 8 and a BB/9 of 3.3, he has a nearly 2.5 K/BB ratio. He’s struck out 115 in 130 innings (which was his innings TOTAL last year). He’s throwing nearly over 6.2 innings per start. There’s nothing that jumps out as an incredibly flukish (the strand rate is probably a bit high but only by a couple % points). He’s having a hell of a year and this is part of the reason why that contract extension was a really good one.
When Wainwright was coming up, I never thought he’d be this good. I saw him more as a middle of the rotation kind of pitcher but he’s shown, imo, a skillset very similar to Carpenter: a nice sinking fastball, multiple breaking pitches, a servicable changeup, and the ability to go deep into games. Needless to say, I’m thrilled with his progress and hope it continues.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2009 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
From the middle of '06 I thought he'd be something special
There was just something about Wainwright that screamed “future ace” to me back then. I remember getting really excited when he’d come into a game and go berserk when he’d smash a batter with the yellow hammer. Seeing batters bail out of the box and have that sucker drop in for a strike just made me giddy.
In the beginning of the year when he was struggling with his command I found myself acquiescing a bit, but in retrospect it was a perfect sign that he could be an ace—he gutted through those bad outings and turned them into wins. They were the type of games that, if Welemeyer were starting, could have been 10-0 before the Cardinals even got a chance to bat…as the visiting team. Somehow, Wainer got through 6 with minimal damage.
When you look at his numbers at the all star break, he could almost be a Cy contender if we weren’t in a league with the likes of Haren and Linsecum. Amazing.
by cloistermaximus on Jul 17, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"smash a batter with a yellow hammer"
donkey kong!!! Anyone out there watch the documentary “King of Kong”? Friggin awesome.
by cdb on Jul 17, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love that movie
It’s been awhile since I watched it, but the way that it pulls you in and makes you root for the underdog…
by mysterui on Jul 17, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Wainwright was in the Braves
orginization I thought he would be good. I was definitely shocked that they traded him. I liked Marquis also back then but I thought Wainwright was better
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people are still remembering him as the pitcher who pitched the first 5 games of the season (shaky control, leading to high pitch counts). I stopped to look at his stats the other day and I was ASTOUNDED at how good he was this year. He’s young, signed to a very team-friendly deal, and seems to be able to handle 100+ pitch counts pretty well.
He was never that good in the minors, I don’t think. He battled injuries a lot, but I just didn’t think he would be that good
by mysterui on Jul 17, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was watching him a couple of starts ago
and yeah, that’s what I was thinking. He was just going after hitters with fastball and curveball, curveball and fastball. 2 slightly different curveballs (different speed and break). Really made me think of Carp.
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been loving those strikeouts
since the start of the season. I don’t know whether it’s better approach or better stuff but he’s started throwing that curveball by people in a way that he simply didn’t in his two de facto-ace years.
by DanUpBaby on Jul 17, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His trajectory this season has been awesome
especially since he started out so shaky.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 17, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ack. Not sure how that happened.
Anyway, I feel like he’s currently pitching the best out of all our starters. I could be wrong about that, I dunno. But if he keeps this up he might not be overshadowed by Piñeiro and Carpenter anymore.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 17, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pitch counts?
The strikeouts are great. And he is pitching deep into the game which is great. However, he seems to be throwing 120 pitches a game. How long can he keep this up? I remember a post not that long ago talking about pitch counts and that the magical 100 limit was garbage – a statement which I can agree with. But can we make any predictions as to how WW will handle this kind of load?
by cdb on Jul 17, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently (according to LaDuncan)
He throws fewer warmup pitchers than anyone else, so he can go deeper into games
by mysterui on Jul 17, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is #1 in IP
right now in the NL….
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 17, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone posted a link to pitcher abuse points recently
Wainwright was #9 in the league (can’t remember if it was all MLB or just NL)
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 17, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think some people (me specifically),
have just always thought Wainwright basically was the ace and that freak events were the only thing standing in his way. Naturally, the first time I started paying attention, he was in the bullpen and I wanted him in the rotation after I had seen ~2 appearances. Good on him for finally making my fantasy-draft reaches for him worthwhile.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a few things are workin against WW getting the recognition he deserves
- His slow start: I think after his fourth or fifth game some people just kinda stop paying attention
- Chris Carpenter being Chris Carpenter: The return to form of a Cy Young award is a huge story.
*Jo-El’s sinker of doom: We might be witnessing a “washed up” finally putting all the pieces to gether to emerge as a very good pitcher
- The Colonel’s struggles: He has been as surprisingly as bad as Pineiro has been surprisingly good.
- All Star Franklin: The guy sucks as a closer but somehow makes the All Star team and has a living beard.
- Motte’s role as a setup man: He is having one heck of a rookie year.
I think when you take all these things combined it gives the writers plenty of story lines to talk about. Wainwright doing what a lot of people expected him to do this year is just not as good as story most of the above. I also think the Job McClellan is doing this year is being over shadowed as well.
by Evilfrog on Jul 17, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember when we were all worried about...
….the Wagonmaker’s ability to throw strikes? Looks like he’s gotten that straightened out.
The thing that was always, in my mind at least, keeping him from being a legitimate #1 was his issues with missing bats. Well…he’s not not missing them anymore, hence the higher K-rates. Hopefully we’re seeing an emergence and not a blip.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 17, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have noted it
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see a need for a SP.....
that takes the place of Wellemeyer.
If Lohse is going to pich well, and Carp/Waino/JP keep pitching as they have and stay healthy, I think we can get by with a weak #5 guy. And for those that say I never criticize the FO, or Tony (I think this would be more of the FO), I think Boggs, or whichever of the AAA/mopup guys, should be given first chance at that rotation spot. Or Thompson, even. He wasn’t THAT bad.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jul 17, 2009 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
plus, when taking account remaining schedule
we have 9 days off in the final 9 weeks, and the lightest remaining schedule of any team in either league. therefore our fifth starter would be used less often, barring injury of course.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jul 17, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wellemeyer has somehow held onto that fifth spot,
mainly due to injuries, but also weathering better performances by a few rookies (Hawksworth, Boggs). I see him as equivalent to slightly better than Thompson, but even that race is closer than it should be.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Puppy Kicker
Thompson was and will be pretty bad. His FIP is 5.02 right now, which is ghastly. He barely strikes out more than he walks. He doesn’t have any kind of repertoire that would suggest possible improvement. Thompson should be the absolute last option to get starts from here on out.
VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 17, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thompson
Thompson is a replacement level pitcher, no question, but he gives me with more confidence than Wellemeyer (or Marquis in 2006), who just seem to melt down, flail, give up, I don’t know what.
Thompson is what he is: a groundball pitcher (gb/fb ratio above 2) with a low enough walk rate (WHIP of 1.29) to survive. It’s not overpowering. But it sure seems steadier than the Wellemeyer/Marquis experiences. I’ll take it over Wellemeyer right now.
And I’d like to see Boggs.
www.mpgillusion.com
by ncgostl on Jul 17, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
have we been watching the same Thompson for the last month?
has he been this terrible at any point in his less than stellar major league career?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 17, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
without looking at numbers
i’d say he’s been pretty consistently this bad
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a choice between wellemeyer and thompson
who do you want?
Then we can talk about trades for Halladay, promoting Boggs, etc.
Whether those things happen, or should, the key question is whether you keep going with wellemeyer or with the standard replacement guy, thompson?
No evasive choice of “neither” or “halladay” or “boggs”.
www.mpgillusion.com
by ncgostl on Jul 17, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's easy
Welley. He has the ability to have a decent start more than once every two months
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jul 18, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really dont know what can be done with K Greene
I think if I were Mo and/or Tony, I’d have written him off for the season. I know I may take some heat for what I’m about to say but I’m gonna say it anyway. I think Kahlil’s condition may have gotten in to the heads of some of the other guys on this team. I just can’t ignore the fact that some players seemed to start slumping around the time his rumored self abuse came out. We all know that Ankiel espeacially has a fragile psychy, and this game takes incredible confidence to play well. I’m probably way off but I think his anxiety kind of spread to some of the less confident guys on the team. Yes, I know social anxiety is not a virus. But I think wittnessing this kind of anxiety can really get in a persons head. Almost like they didn’t realize how scary it was to go to the plate until they saw how scared he was.
Am I way off? I just don’t want him back.
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 17, 2009 10:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
You might have something there Mr. Underware
and that is why the Cardinals will handle the K Greene situation as graciously as possible. I look for him to gallop slowly off into the sunset.
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greene, etc.
Mental health ‘issues’ in baseball are certainly not new, or even more prevelant, just more in the open.
Gary Templeton and Phil Bradley, just to name a couple with Missouri ties, had mental health issues.
Templeton overcame his, although he never played as well again, but Bradley retired from baseball.
KJOK
by KJOK on Jul 17, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chuck Knoblauch
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 17, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A nice, flowing narrative is comforting,
but I think it was the contact between Ank’s psyche and the left-center wall more than his contact with the depressed KGreene that started his slump in earnest.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 17, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, the wall won that one
Let’s put it this way. If K. Greene’s condition were “contagious”, our dugout would resemble the Cubs’.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 17, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
our dugout doesn't resemble the Cubs?
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope not
They’ll be tossing the Bubble Yum buckets, in that case.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 17, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone seems to forget that Ank was slumping before he hit the wall...
He has consistently sucked all year.
'Stay Thursty My Friends' - Tony LaRussa
by The_teague on Jul 17, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Los Angeles Dodgers fans
Did anyone see Dodger’s fans’ reaction to Juan Pierre’s pinch hit appearance last night? As he was announced, they gave him a standing ovation in appreciation of the work he put in as Manny Ramirez’ “absence”.
Classy move.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
totally OT, but I simply have to post this
In today’s Chicago Sun Times, two sports writers, Dan Jiggets and Mike North have an article in which each argues which Chicago baseball team will make the post season. Dan Jiggets argued that the Cubs will. Mike North says the White Sox.
To get to the point, I quote Mr Jiggets third paragraph.
“While the Cardinals, who are in first place right now, have been at or near the top of the central for the first half, they have had their full complement of players and have been running at full throttle. This might be as good as it gets for them. Cards skipper Tony La Russa is known for getting everything he can out of his teams, and this season is no exception.”
I’m continually amazed at how paid professionals in Chicago will write about the Cardinals when they have absolutely no clue what’s going on with them. For those of you who may have wondered before what it would be like to live in Chicago as a Cardinals fan, this is a prime example. “Full compliment of players”? Are you effing kidding me? I just can’t believe this paragraph is actually in print in a respected news paper. What a clueless jack ass.
The purpose of the exercise is to win the World Series
by Walking Underwear on Jul 17, 2009 12:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
wow. that's incredibly uninformed.
none of my friends who are sports fans (and not Cards’ fans) would even attempt to make that argument.
"I think he's the best hitter of all time. I think there has never been a better hitter than him. And I know I didn't see them all, but I just don't think there could be." - Adam Wainwright on The Mang
by bmorgan on Jul 17, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your first mistake
is assuming Jiggets or North are sports “writers”.
While, JIggets is a sports “personality” here in Chicago, he’s not exactly known to be much more than a radio/tv commentator. North on the other hand is a hot dog vendor turned radio personality and he, for one, never ever let facts get in the way of his story.
Honestly, I a little disappointed in Jiggets in this case, but I’m not sure he’s even been out of the city of Chicago let alone knows anything else actually exists south of I-80, west of DeKalb, north of Great America, and east of…..well, what could be east of Chicago? Hell, I can’t even see across that big ocean on our shores.
I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.
by Tackle Box on Jul 17, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Link?
I want to forward this to my brother….. Big Cards fan in Chicago!
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 17, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My husband is reading over my shoulder
and he is the biggest White Sox fan in the world. Those Chicago guys mostly pay attention to CHICAGO. It’s a big city with a lot going on and they are every bit the homers that folks are in this city. Just go ahead and assume they know their own teams (they do) and realize they don’t know about the other teams (because they don’t) and that’s that.
Anyway, the White Sox have a better shot at winning their division. Ozzie is absolutely masterful at handling a pitching staff, and pitching wins in short series.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Asked My Brother in Chicagoland about this
His response:
Jiggets is football guy, and Mike North is his partner in crime. North was a hotdog
vendor at Comiskey Park back in the day :) Both of these gentleman use to work
for a convicted felon @ Chicago Sports – Webio
Enjoy the read & take everything they say w/ a grain of salt.
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 17, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I continue to marvel
At how everyone seems to ignore the fact that we’ve been without Glaus all year. My friend was telling me how the Cubs had it rough because they were missing Aramis Ramirez for a while. I bitched him out good.
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, no kidding
Glaus was awesome last year. Going from All-Star caliber to replacement level at 3B really hurts.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 17, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jiggets is a football guy. And a TV/radio guy.
Dunno what editor came up with the stupid idea to have him write about baseball.
by sdrone on Jul 17, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: About to go the Library
Been flying through books and need a new one. I prefer Non-fiction history books but open to a good science fiction book also. It doesn’t matter if the book is new or old
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 17, 2009 12:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
gotta recommend the Satchel Paige biography
Doesn’t deify, shows a jock that had great successes and heartbreaking losses, with a backdrop of mid-20th century america.
Did you read “Getting to know you” short stories by D Marusek?
by baked mcbride on Jul 17, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
have you read
the Winds of War yet?
by Evilfrog on Jul 17, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems good
I put it on a reserve list to check out. It is at a far away library
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 17, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of my favorite books I've read over the last 5 years or so is
The Science of Good and Evil… brilliant book. mostly about sociology, but has some history and philosophy in it too. for sci-fi I recommend Valis if you have not read that yet. or Deathbird Stories by Harlan Ellison is an amazing collection of sci-fi related short stories.
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Science of Good and Evil
Seems like a book I would like and it is at my local library so I will check it out
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 17, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously
I was blown away by the depth of research and the amount of insights in that book
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Non fiction historical accounts of events, maybe a bit more sociology
but two of my very favorite books, non fiction, involve fires, fires that changed the country-Triangle:The Fire that Changed America by David von Drehle is an account of the fire at the Triangle Shirtwaist Co and how that set the stage for unionization of the garment industry in NYC, and Circus Fire: True Story of an American Tragedy which is about the fire at the Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus performance under a tent that caught fire in Hartford, Ct. which pretty much prompted new rules and regulations at places where crowds gather.
I know you didn’t ask for fiction recommendations, but still, I feel like I’d been remiss is I didn’t mention Pete Hamill. He’s written some exquisite books about life in NYC that give you a great feel of the history of the city and the people who live in it.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have always been interested in
In learning more about the Worker Rights movement in this country. I will look at the Triangle Fire
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jul 17, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't read a ton of science fiction
but Robert Sawyer writes some great stuff in that area. Nice short, encapsulated reads that are often very thought provoking. One of his books, Flash Forward, is being made into a TV series by JJ Abrams this year or next. I also enjoyed Calculating God and just picked up the first book in the Neanderthal Paradox.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure if you put fantasy on the same page (har har) as sci-fi
but if you do, check out Steven Erikson’s Malazan Book of the Fallen series. First book is entitled Gardens of the Moon. His books are amazing, entertaining on multiple levels (humorous, philosophical, etc) and refreshing. He enjoys throwing classic fantasy conventions on their heads. Great stuff
by kalmavet on Jul 17, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dostoevsky
bukowski
vonnegut
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
non fiction history books
disregard
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
aren't we well read
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not really
i’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not either
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you read
Guns, Germs and Steel?
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
by giveml on Jul 17, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a good one, absolutely.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 17, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
almost mentioned that one
but figured he’d read it already
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about the Devil in the White City
I read it recently and found it to be a great read.
by OCCardsFan on Jul 17, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a great book.
I didn’t put it down until I was finished.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jul 17, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a terrible book
Just kidding. It was great, I loved it.
by mojowo11 on Jul 17, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can't read
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jul 17, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you can type though
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you sure? look below
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jul 17, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would read a book by Khalil Greene about sociological observations in baseball
sounds like it would be a great read
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Off subject....but
it is really going to be interesting to see how the Cards fare at the end of this month. They really have a tough schedule coming up with no off days while the Cubs and Brewers have a relatively easy schedule in the same time.
I don’t think they can hold 1st place, but I hope they can stay within a couple games and not wear out a pitching staff.
by ridgesee on Jul 17, 2009 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's a legitimate question
and I really hope not to offend anyone by the mere suggestion of this hypothetical situation ever occurring. If Pujols somehow injured himself and was out for a prolonged period of time (god forbid), would the Cardinals be forced to call up Wallace? I think it would be almost impossible for them not to but I’m curious about what others think
by riotmute on Jul 17, 2009 1:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think some people wil lambast you for "cursing" the Great and Powerful Pujols
but you do have to think of these possibilities. I, for one, would see if Glaus could play even a passable 1b. If not, give Wallace 2 weeks to get the position, and call that man up immediately. Hope that his bat carries us into October.
Of course, you could easily go the other way and give up on the season, and trade a couple of guys (Pineiro, Franklin, DeRosa if he ever comes back) and see what you get in return. That would also be a valid way to go about this
Yep, every Hall of Famer did something unique. Mike Schmidt played with his hat sideways. Roberto Clemente chewed other people's fingernails. Tris Speaker was Japanese. Lou Boudreau rode a dolphin into the batter's box. Nap Lajoie would only use John Wilkes Booth's dismembered leg as a bat. And he corked it. Johnny Mize was from the future. - FJM
by Choix003 on Jul 17, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
Glaus at 1B
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets clear something up
Wallace will be good. Emphasis on the word “WILL”. He is not ready yet .
The Walrus is not getting a callup this year, even if half the team was on the DL. Unless they trade him for a premium blue-chip player like Halladay, Brett will get his ABs in Memphis, and be ready to go next year. NEXT YEAR. Did I mention the words, “NEXT YEAR”?
Good.
by JWO on Jul 17, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey you guys
Remember when there were baseball games to watch? Man, those were the days. We all used to talk about pitching match-ups and Tony’s crazy-go-nuts lineup of the day, and whether Albert Pujols would break parts of the stadium. But that seems like such a distant memory now… almost like the days of my childhood when—
Oh, there’s a game tonight. Frickin’ Sweet!!!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Jul 17, 2009 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
haha
i’m excited for a games that matter too! but then it occurs to me that I haven’t been mad about anything all week so maybe I should appreciate the break more….
by kalmavet on Jul 17, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't you know?
The All-Star game mattered!
"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer
by jd is legend on Jul 17, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, now I still have impressions from the All Star game
Prince Fielder is a likable fellow
Ted Lilly has a sense of humor
Zack Grienke (sp?) is the one pitcher I want the most on my team
Joe Nathan is absolutely fearless on the mound
Carl Crawford? Wow!
Albert Pujols can pick it
Tim Lincecum looked nervous and uncomfortable on the mound
Marino Rivera oozes class-he has earned all the praise and dollars bestowed on him
Joe Mauer was the most pleasant and polite player on the field. During the home run derby, he spoke to the catcher, met his pitcher half way to thank him for pitching to him, and made eye contact and thanked the child that gave him a towel and some gatorade. JOE MAUER for PRESIDENT!
I can’t wait to see how the rest of the season plays out-there are a lot of teams still in it.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
yeah
I think they shouldn’t have started Lincecum in hindsight… he’s too young and has not been in any big games. he really looked nervoues. and greinke would be nice…
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you watch Nathan as he left the field?
dude went “WHEW” and let out a big ole breath in relief he got outta that. i agree he’s fearless. he’s also pretty damn good considering he got outs when he clearly didn’t have his best stuff.
Mauer’s the only guy i want behind the plate not named Yadda. such a great all around player.
do not agree about lilly pad & fielder. i think they knew they were on a national stage & put on a good face. both those guys have shown over the years when they played the Cards they aren’t the people they showed to the rest of the world monday & tuesday.
everything else i agree with. especially the Grienke part. holy cap he’d look awesome wearing the BOB’s.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jul 17, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
holy cap, indeed
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 17, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, gee. Ted Lilly raised his cap and laughed as the boos cascaded down on him.
He was a least a good sport about it.
Fielder was gracious when he won the home run derby.
They play us hard; they should. It’s their job. I find no fault with that.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jul 17, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ask Yadda how good of a sport lilly pad is
i have no problem with Big Veg’s hard play. it’s he & his teams immaturity & lack of class that i have a problem with.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jul 17, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
crap
thought the game was an afternoon game. going to Pitchfork Fest tonight to see The Jesus Lizard, wooooo!
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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