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First Half Catcher Defense

Yadi's done more than swing the bat for the Cards in '09.(AP Photo/Charlie Riedel)

More photos » by Charlie Riedel - AP

Yadi's done more than swing the bat for the Cards in '09.(AP Photo/Charlie Riedel)

A couple of times after last season, I addressed the fact that last year was Yadi’s worst season defensively. Last year he had a career low caught stealing rate and allowed the most wild pitches + passed balls of his career. He also had the most errors of his career. Despite his regression last year, he won his first Gold Glove. Some of that was undoubtedly attributable to the fact that last year was Yadi’s best offensive season. Well, his offensive ascension has continued this season. As of right now he has a career high wOBA, OBP and BB rate. He’s on pace for a career high in runs created and homers. His fine defense and improving offense, to say nothing of the fact that the All-Star Game was played under the arches, played a part in the fact that Yadi was voted to start his first All-Star Game.

Over the first half of this season, it appears as though Yadi’s defense is rebounding from a relatively poor 2008 season. His CS% is up, his WP+PB/G is down, and he has just 2 errors on the season. A catcher’s defensive value is very difficult to capture b/c, unlike every other position’s, range plays a very small part – despite Yadi’s terrific play on Mark Teixeira’s squibber in the ASG last night. This is why there’s no UZR for catchers and why it’s not reported over at fangraphs.

In order to compare Yadi’s defensive value so far to the other NL catchers, I used the stolen base and caught stealing data from baseball-reference and the other data was gathered from THT. The run values for the various events were gathered from everybody’s favorite discussion piece -- The Book. A passed ball is worth 0.269 runs, a wild pitch is worth 0.266 runs, a stolen base is worth 0.175 runs, and a caught stealing is worth minus 0.467 runs. In the table below, BR runs represents the number of runs that a catcher has cost his team by being unable to throw base runners out. A negative number means that he’s prevented more runs than he’s cost his team by throwing runners out. Miss runs represents the number of runs that the catcher has cost his team through wild pitches and passed balls. Finally, what hasn’t been accounted for is the deterrent effect of a catcher’s reputation. How many runs does Yadi’s reputation save by preventing runners from even attempting to steal? I estimated this determining each player’s expected stolen base attempts against – simply the league average SBA (0.80 per game) times the catcher’s number of games. Subtract the actual SBA from the expected SBA and multiply that times the value of the stolen base (0.175 runs – since runners are forgoing the opportunity to add .175 runs to their total b/c of the catcher’s rep) and that gives us Rep Runs. Add the BR runs, the Miss runs and the Rep runs together to get the Total Runs against. TR/150 puts the Total Runs against on a 150 game scale. RAA is then the number of runs above (if positive) or below (if negative) average for each catcher. Obviously, low scores are better for TR/150 and high scores are better for RAA.

Inn SB CS WP+PB BR runs Miss runs Rep runs Total runs R/150 RAA
Yadi 674 15 12 25 2.98 -6.69 3.20 -0.51 -1.03 15.05
Ruiz 448 26 15 8 2.46 -2.14 -0.13 0.18 0.54 16.62
Hanigan 376 14 11 16 2.69 -4.28 0.83 -0.77 -2.76 13.32
Pudge 570 23 10 20 0.65 -5.35 2.15 -2.55 -6.05 10.03
Santos 375 21 7 8 -0.41 -2.14 0.70 -1.85 -6.65 9.43
Hernandez 410 31 16 13 2.05 -3.47 -1.22 -2.64 -8.71 7.37
Iannetta 468 32 10 16 -0.93 -4.28 -0.05 -5.27 -15.20 0.88
Martin 658 40 20 38 2.34 -10.17 -0.18 -8.01 -16.43 -0.35
Kendall 666 38 10 31 -1.98 -8.29 1.55 -8.72 -17.68 -1.70
Soto 542 38 16 25 0.82 -6.69 -0.72 -6.58 -16.39 -0.31
McCann 541 39 14 22 -0.29 -5.89 -0.63 -6.80 -16.98 -0.90
Jaramillo 392 29 9 14 -0.87 -3.74 -0.42 -5.03 -17.33 -1.25
Montero 414 33 11 20 -0.64 -5.35 -0.94 -6.94 -22.62 -6.54
B. Molina 630 55 12 32 -4.02 -8.56 -1.58 -14.16 -30.34 -14.26
Baker 482 50 13 31 -2.68 -8.28 -2.80 -13.76 -38.54 -22.46
Hundley 363 41 4 14 -5.31 -3.74 -2.03 -11.08 -41.21 -25.13

Catchers’ defense, of course, isn’t as simple as I’ve made it appear. Pitchers have an impact on the number of wild pitches thrown and stolen bases attempted. The score, the opponent, and the ballpark will also affect the number of stolen bases attempted. But, if you’re looking for a strong defensive catcher, you want one who can throw out base runners and block balls in the dirt. IMO, this measurement captures that as well as I’m capable of capturing it though I’m certainly willing to listen to your feedback.

It shouldn’t go unnoticed that Yadi comes out on top – largely b/c of his reputation and his ability to throw out base runners. He’s actually not done particularly in preventing wild pitches or passed balls. Carlos Ruiz of the Phillies has had a tremendous first half defensively and is only hurt by the fact that he hasn’t yet developed the reputation that people like Yadi and Pudge have. In any case, Yadi appears to be having a career season. My only concern is that his workload will catch up to him and he’ll wear down over the season’s second half. Still, Yadi at 75% has got to be better than Jason LaRue at 100% so I suppose we’ll have to chance that, won’t we?

Edit: I've made a substantial change to the Rep runs column. After rethinking it some, it seems to me that the value of a catcher's reputation is that the runner gives up the opportunity to steal the base. The value of that steal to the runner is equal to the value of the SB (0.175 runs) times the likelihood of success (1-CS%). In the original spreadsheet, I only used the 0.175 runs. Making this change alters the results some and drops Yadi below Carlos Ruiz by about a run and a half. Still, I think this is the correct methodology. It puts Yadi on about a 6 run prevented pace based on reputation and a half a win sounds a little more accurate than the full win pace I had initially.

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On the non-numbers side of the isle:

Was Yadi’s transcendent defensive play his scoop and pick off last Saturday at Wrigley, or was it when he threw a guy out at second from his knees while literally diving across the plate last year?

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 2:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Is this the first VEB comment to ever go green

without a “rec” or “how is this thing not green?!” comment in reply to it?

"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer

by jd is legend on Jul 16, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It does seem strange to have all those recs and no replies.

I guess it just spoke for itself. Until we ruined it!

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me FAIL

"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer

by jd is legend on Jul 16, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Heheh

I was wondering about this myself.

by sdrone on Jul 16, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was against Theriot as well

Link. You think he would have learned.

"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin

by all4tookie on Jul 16, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this photo is a classic

hahaha.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 16, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

man thanks for the link

I’d been looking for video of Molina picking off Theriot.

by sdrone on Jul 16, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Welly

I miss Welly’s 94 mph sinker from that video.

by MRCARD on Jul 16, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scoopie to pickie

He’s pulled off the throw from the knees at least twice, once against the Braves in ‘07 I believe. I’ve never seen anything like that scoop to pickoff.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 16, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here it is

Link
Suck it, Willie Harris.

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Jul 16, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

your second is my avatar picture

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 16, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

last Saturday

link

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 16, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

April in Georgia

link

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 16, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

FYI

That’s the same play.

I have a very, umm...photographic brain. A lot like Ansel Adams but in color and with a lot more, uh.....insertion and pubic hair.

by Tackle Box on Jul 16, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

damn

It’s so easy to link-fail on the MLB site. That’ll teach me to open a new tab every time.

Thanks for the catch.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 16, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

trying again

Yadier picks off Yunel

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 16, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isle?

Like on the other side of an island? I jest…

VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 16, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

20 runs!!!

That seems very high too me, but your method looks fine, so I probably don’t know what I am talking about.

Fuck, that’s amazing. 20 runs!!!, that’s 2 wins. He’s already been worth 1.8 WAR this year, on his offense and position alone. Add in the 2 wins on defense, and he has been one of the most valuable players in the majors this year.

Derosa.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 16, 2009 2:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Someday

if there’s ever a way to quantify “how you call a game” I have a feeling Yadi will be high up there, with Matheny not too far behind.

Yadi especially just seems to have a sixth sense behind the plate. He’s really quite special and I truly love watching him play.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

calling the game

Occasionally catchers will get talked about at not working well with pitchers, but they never seem to get blamed for calling a bad game. They probably don’t get enough credit on the good side either, but I don’t know if I’ve ever heard someone say that catcher X called a bad game. bad games are 100% the pitcher and good games are 50/50

How did the pig corner the breakfast market?

by STLRegalia on Jul 16, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Catchers “suggest” pitches, pitchers “choose” pitches

That simple difference could be the cause of the credit shifting. If a catcher is called off all the time and a pitcher throws a great game then the Catcher did a bad job but the pitcher correct it. If a pitcher doesn’t call of a catcher and has a bad game who is really at fault? The one that suggested the bad move or the one that took that suggestion? You also have to look at execution of that game calling too, if the pitcher is not executing it isn’t the catchers fault unless he keeps calling for breaking balls when the only thing the pitcher can command is his fastball.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Jul 16, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When Jonathan Sanchez threw his no hitter

recently, he specifically thanked his catcher Eli something, for calling a great game. How you quantify it, I don’t know. To me, a catcher who calls a good game recognizes early on what is working for the pitcher and adjusts his game calling to the pitcher in real time. If that means throwing out the original game plan, you throw it out. If it means scratching a certain pitch for the day, you scratch it. The game calling of a catcher should be to get the best out of that pitcher that day.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eli Whiteside

He was the second cinderella in the cinderella story. Only his 10th major league game (subbing for B. Molina who was with his wife when she was having a baby):

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/31859651/ns/sports-baseball/

www.mpgillusion.com

by ncgostl on Jul 16, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure if this falls into the "calls a game" or not?

But how about how he handles the staff in itself? Not one pitcher, but a variety of pitchers. Each with his own quirks and peccadilloes. To keep them headed in the direction that they need to guided during a game. If they start to deviate then he has to straighten them back out. The innate ability to do that is hard to quantify but valuable none the less.

by cardfanndeboonies on Jul 16, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

YADI.

"I've played a couple of hundred games of tic-tac-toe with my little daughter and she hasn't beaten me yet. I've always had to win. I've got to win." - Bob Gibson

by MUGATU on Jul 16, 2009 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good question

b/c I’ve been back and forth on this. THT seems to have Yadi w/ 8 caught stealings in 23 attempts but B-R and MLB have him as 12 of 27. I can only assume that the 4 for 4 difference between the 2 is that B-R and MLB include pickoffs but THT does not. I couldn’t find an answer but that seems to be the only logical conclusion. So, the answer is that yes, I believe it does include pickoffs since I used the B-R data. I think so but couldn’t find a definitive answer either way.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2009 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rep runs

Great article, Chuck. Thanks.
However, in my humble opinion, Rep runs might be a bit smaller than you suggested.

It seems like your Rep runs are calculated like this way:

Rep runs = [ ( Inn / 9 ) x 0.8 – ( SB + CS ) ] x 0.175

However, stolen base attempts cannot be successful every time; the expected value of a stolen base attempt should be lower than 0.175 runs.

Expected outcomes of a stolen base attempt would be:
1. SB
2. CS
3. Not SB, but runner is safe (throwing error, injury, etc.)

I could not find the % of case 3. So let’s ignore it and calculate the expected value with case 1 and 2 only. So far in this season, 2,305 stolen base attemps were made and 1,692 of them were successful. That gives us 73.4% of success rate. A SB is worth 0.175 runs and a CS is worth negative 0.467 runs, so the expected value of a stolen base attempt should be calculated like this:

EV = 0.734 × 0.175 + ( 1 – 0.734 ) x ( – 0.467)

That gives us only 0.004228 runs. If we re-calculate Molina’s Rep runs with this expected value of a stolen base attempt, we get only 0.14 runs, significantly lower than your original calculation.

Don’t get me wrong; I don’t want to say a catcher’s strong reputation is worth almost nothing. Aggressive baserunning puts a lot of stress on opponents and does increase the chance of fielding errors. If your opponents choose not to run on you, you certainly gain some value. I just think the effect of a catcher’s reputation would be a bit smaller than originally suggested, because the expected value of SBA is pretty small.

Cardinals fan from Korea

by FreeRedbird on Jul 16, 2009 4:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I couldn't tell, ...

was the assumption above that every steal not attempted due to reputation would succeed? Would it be better to apply the catcher’s CS% to those attempts, and the corresponding runs associated, to try to get a more accurate picture of what would have probably occured had those attempts taken place?

Of course, reputation has a detrimental effect on a catcher’s CS% to some extent, also. If a catcher has a strong reputation for throwing out runners (ala Yadi or Pudge), then the attempts that are made are most likely going to be “better” attempts in that they’ll be more stolen off of the pitcher than the catcher.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In addition to your good point:

“If a catcher has a strong reputation for throwing out runners (ala Yadi or Pudge), then the attempts that are made are most likely going to be "better" attempts in that they’ll be taken only by the best base stealers.”

"I'll be glad to have Ryan [Braun] help if he wants to. I'll give him a badge and he can be my deputy." - Doug Melvin

by all4tookie on Jul 16, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.

That’s also a good point.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure that I'd make a WP...

equivalent to a PB in this scenario. A wild pitch is technically supposed to be on the pitcher and not the catcher (though a good catcher will prevent many a wild pitch). I see Yadi’s WP+PB is higher than the next 6 guys on the list (though with a great deal more playing time), and wonder what it would be if it were .5WP+PB. I don’t know if it’s fair to say that half of all wild pitches are outside of a catcher’s control, but I don’t know what an accurate % would be.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Jul 16, 2009 8:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I would second this.

Especially with the number of young, control-challenged pitchers that Yadi has had to deal with. I always thought the purpose between having two different statistics there is to try to differentiate what the catcher should have been able to reasonably affect the outcome of (wow, what an attrocious sentence, but I’m not fixing it). I don’t think weighting a WP and a PB the same is fair to a catcher. Unfortunately, with the horrible state of official scoring, I would be in favor of saying that half the time the scorer gets it right on the WP, as cardzfanbub suggests. The scorers very seldom make the mistake on the PB, as they don’t seem to do anything to help the pitcher.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now if we could only get Yadi to run to first

/hrbosky

Actually, I agree with Al on that. But I still love Yadi.

by paposse on Jul 16, 2009 9:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, ...

something LaRussa doesn’t seem to understand is that you can criticize without condemning. If Yadi, or Albert, or anyone else takes some plays off that could potentially cost the team, it is fair to criticize them for that. Over the course of 162, no player is going to be at his best every time. I don’t remember Al saying that he thought Yadi was lazy, he just didn’t appreciate his lack of hustle on that play.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's ok

that LaRussa stood up for Yadi. I think he’s wrong but, as the manager, he needed to do that.

I am glad that Al feels free to criticize players and hope that this spat doesn’t come back to haunt Al. I don’t like Al at all but think it would be a huge mistake for the organization to get rid of Al over something like this. The people in the booth need to be able to criticize the player or the manager w/o fear of retribution. I hope that he continues when it needs to be said.

by chuckb on Jul 16, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Open question for everyone

Am I the only one who would have been totally unaware of the whole issue were it not for people talking about it on the internet? Caveat: I had been traveling recently and may have entirely missed the game in question. But it sure feels like this is much ado about nothing.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

I also missed this part of the game… and I think I was watching.

by soil_illini on Jul 16, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it was easy to miss

Because it was in the middle of a Cubs miscue, and the crowd was going wild over that. Dan was attempting to keep it on topic when suddenly Al did his thing.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 16, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would have missed it ...

if stltoday.com hadn’t reported on it. Actually, if LaRussa had so no comment on it at the beginning we probably never would have heard of it, either.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree on your take about Al.

The organization needs to have objective criticism. I don’t need the Philly “everything sucks unless it’s perfect” approach, but I don’t want everybody associated to be just “yes men/women.” I would feel better about LaRussa standing up for his guys in public if:

1) He didn’t dress his own players down in public
2) He was holding veterans accountable in the same manner as rookies

I agree that a manager should stand up for his players in the press, though. I will be really aggravated if LaRussa attempts to use his pull to get Al fired, as you will never get another guy to criticize the team’s effort while he’s here.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they could try and sign Steve Stone from the sox

How did the pig corner the breakfast market?

by STLRegalia on Jul 16, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

I will add to this that I was actually pleased when Al criticized a Proven Veteran for not playing The Game the right way. I feel that his criticism was warranted. I don’t blame TLR for sticking up for Yadi, but, as ept so accurately points out, this is a guy who does the same thing, in the media, to players. By doing so, TLR is implicitly saying that it is okay for him to call out players in the media because he’s the manager, but it’s not okay for those in the media to call out players, because they are members of the media.

Reading up on the back-and-forth, it seems that when TLR responded on the radio show, he didn’t know what the caller was referring to—either the play or The Mad Hungarian’s criticism. He then reiterated his criticism of Al to the P-D when he learned of which play Al was talking about, offering up all kinds of excuses for Yadi. If you don’t know what a caller is talking about, why not decline comment? Why not say, “Al has his job to do, I have my job to do, and we’ll leave it at that.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 16, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your suggestion

seems way too grown up for TLR’s dogmatic ways.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some things

that I believe are true.

1) Yadi is very, very slow. This is true of all Molina’s.

2) He is being over worked at a critical time of the season.

3) It is not so much Tony’s whip as it is Yadi’s shared recognition of teams needs and his volunteering to take on this burden. (LaRue’s mustache weighing heavily)

4) We are all aware of Albert’s special needs and his discretionary use of “pacing” in his base running activities.

Here in lies the problem. As Yadi is producing more, his decision to use “discretionary pacing”, borrowing from the privileges and exceptions granted to the anointed one, we get to that ticklish area of "mental discipline vs attitudinal display based on your hitting effort and or slack game situation recognition.

I believe Tony is aware of the fine lines involved in this problem. He chose to protect his privilege to be the judge of an appropriate effort in this situation. His concerns are for Yadi and protecting the delicate psychological issues surrounding his increased productivity.

I yell at Yadi running across my tv screen all the time. It looks like a digital freeze sometimes. Thats my privilege. Al pointing at a need to play hard is his privilege. Tony protecting a player is his privilege. Its time to play ball again so just let it go.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree

with the “time to play ball again so just let it go” part.

Some of the other stuff (e.g., “LaRue’s mustache weighing heavily”), well, almost made my head explode.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You need

to let me show you how to use traditional origami in crafting a hat made of high quality “tin foil”. It could help with your head problems. It sure works for me. And yes, this was all inside information.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would actually pay you if you'd be willing to make that hat.

I will meet you by the Grassy Knoll. How ’bout just before 9/11?

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hah!

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, but I have a caveat

When LaRussa came out and criticized him, Al should have just left it alone. He knew he was right to criticize Yadi, so there should be nothing more to say. By responding to LaRussa, who, I agree, has a duty to stand up for his players, you’re putting the fanbase in a situation where they have to side with either you or Tony, and they’re almost never going to side with Al in that situation. I feel like the VEB community criticizes TLR a whole lot more than the fanbase as a whole, yet we’re still split on this issue for the most part.

Once it became a point of “pride” or “ego” it doesn’t matter who was right, it just makes Al look like the crotchety old announcer who’s throwing stones from the press box, because you can defend TLR for standing up to his players. Had he not responded to LaRussa, he avoids all of that because he was right to criticize him at the time — he shouldn’t have to defend himself.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 16, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

I will give Al credit for one thing...

…he is willing to criticize players. I think he’s misguided most of the time (see Rasmus, Colby), but then again an announcer who is endlessly deferential to the players is boring too. I mean, why have a former player in the booth if not to pick out mistakes and point out successes?

It’s a start anyway…

VivaElBirdos...Scoring less, but more frequently since approximately 1903.

by redbirdnation8206 on Jul 16, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand why

Yadi’s getting criticized at all on that play. Look, I’m the biggest believer in hustle around, but I’m not going to ask my catcher to sprint to first on a popup with less than two outs and first base occupied. He only has to do exactly what he did. Yadi didn’t give up on the play. He trotted down the line and was attentive, so he could get to first if it was misplayed. He didn’t sprint, but he didn’t have to, because there was no way to advance past first.
I do think there was a lack of hustle on the play though, and it was by the guy forced out on the play – Rick. Everyone was so worried about Yadi carrying his bat that no one questioned where Rick’s head was. They wouldn’t show the replay of him on the bases, but he wasn’t even in the frame when the throw came in to second. If he had taken an appropriate secondary lead, and paid attention to the play, I think he should’ve been a lot closer to second by the time the ball was gathered off the turf and the throw came in. Maybe could’ve been safe, in my opinion. Why isn’t anyone talking about that?

by hit and run on Jul 16, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Was he watching, or did he have his head down?

He was in the baseline and watching the play, if I remember the replay correctly. He continued to advance toward first, albeit slowly, such that when the ball was dropped he could make it to first. I don’t care so much about the disappointment visible in his expression; he’d just popped up in the middle of a rally. But whether we agree on the appropriateness of Yadi’s level of effort or not, I’d still like to know what you think about Rick’s effort on the play. In my opinion, he’s the one that gave up; more attention and effort from Rick might’ve prevented the out. Yadi did not get put out, and I don’t think he was in a position to have been put out even if the throw had come into first. Which one deserves more criticism? Why is Yadi the only one in question?

by hit and run on Jul 16, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wha??

On a routine popup to short left, Ankiel’s job was to stay pretty close to 1B because that ball is caught 96 times out of 100. Ank didn’t do anything wrong.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 16, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has to take a secondary lead

for these occasions. In this case, with the ball in left field, he can safely stray farther than Luddy could have from second due to the distance of the throw. “Pretty close” is vague; I’d say about a third of the way is appropriate, so you can make it back if the ball is caught, but give yourself a chance to advance if an error is made. If you turn your back to the play and walk back to the bag, you’ve given up on the small percentage of times that ball is dropped. That’s a lot worse than the batter jogging toward first in this case, because there’s no opportunity to advance past first for the batter – as long as he doesn’t head to the dugout before the out call, he’s not giving up anything.

by hit and run on Jul 16, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah...

I didn’t see the play, but unless the ball got quite a ways from Soriano Ankiel’s out no matter what he does. He has to stay close enough to first base to not get doubled off. That’s probably one of those plays where no matter what happens you end up with an out, and runners right where they were. The more I’ve read about it, the more I think nobody was in the wrong…unless there was a possibility of Molina being thrown out at first had the throw went there.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Jul 16, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watch the play

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2009_07_10_slnmlb_chnmlb_1&mode=wrap

It doesn’t show the runners, but you can see that the ball bounces a couple times, and when the throw comes into second, Rick’s not even in the picture. It seems to me that he would’ve been closer unless he gave up on the play and walked back to the bag even though it was not a tag-up situation.

I think you might be right that this is all just nitpicking, and might not have turned out differently either way. But a lot of people have been talking about this for a week now, and all the criticism has been on Yadi, but it seems to me that the only way it could’ve turned out differently is if Rick had done something differently – not Yadi.

by hit and run on Jul 16, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hard to say...

but it does show Ludwick right before the catch, and I think he’s out at third if Soriano throws there. Granted Ludwick, unlike Ankiel, was too close to the play to be able to get a lead. I agree with your last line. If Yadi did that with two outs or nobody on first it’s a whole ’nother thing. In this case he could have walked to first and still been safe.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Jul 16, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're right

Luddy is in a more difficult position than Rick. Due to the proximity of the play to second base, he can’t stray off as far without risking the double-off. It’s debatable, but could be argued that the appropriate reaction for the runner on second is to feign the tag-up to draw a throw, but that ball probably isn’t deep enough for it to be believable, so there’s really not much else he can do.

by hit and run on Jul 16, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't see the play, so ...

I’ll have to go by what was reported. Al has never chastised Molina for not running hard down the baseline, and he said he would not have criticized him had he come down the line immediately. The issue that he took exception to was that, in his description, Molina had turned out of the base path and was walking with the bat in his hand. It wasn’t until the ball dropped that he got his head back in the game and continued down the first base line. That I have a problem with. The same way I have a problem with a guy not running out a dropped third strike.

If Yadi is being overused, then LaRussa should get defensive about this because he’s the one at fault. No, LaRue isn’t great, but he’s not a butcher behind the plate. His deficiency is at the plate, and once again the Cards’ inability to hit the baseball after the 4 spot in the lineup makes Yadi’s bat necessary. Set the man down to rest, regardless. It’s only been a half a season, and he’s already wearing out.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so...

you’re down 0-2 and the pitcher uncorks what will obviously be a wild pitch. Do you swing and take off?

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Jul 16, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends.

Is a baserunner all you need, or do you really need the hit? It will depend on the game situation, but it’s one of those plays that would make stop and say “Damn, that was one of the smarter plays I ever saw.”

I remember my dad talking about a Keith Hernandez AB where the other team tried to IBB him to keep him from driving in a run. He apparently threw the bat a pitch well outside, and got a base hit from it. It’s a pretty cool story, and on par with what you’re talking about.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Miggy C

did that a few years ago. I’m waiting for Pujols to hit one someday.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did see the play

And what I remember is Yadi trotting down the line with his bat in his hand, but not leaving the basepath and not taking his eyes off the play. In fact, he didn’t even have to speed up in order to make it to first, he just continued trotting at the same speed. All this led me to believe he acted appropriately for the specific play in question, although that is not the appropriate amount of effort for most other plays. I have tried to find video of it today to support my statements, but couldn’t.

When the play was over, my impression at the time was that if anyone had done something wrong, it was Rick. I would think that if people were going to talk about it for a week, this would become part of the discussion.

by hit and run on Jul 16, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Ankiel didn't do his job on that play ...

then I agree with you. He should be criticized, as well. The week-long discussion is more about the right of the on-air personalities to criticize the effort of players, and the right method for the manager to protect his players. Molina’s action was simply the impetus of the discussion, because of the typical over-reaction by the team’s manager, IMO. Or, at least, I guess, the inconsistent response of the manager based on his body of work.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

I don’t really care about the drama with the media, and focused my attention to the actual play. FWIW, I’m not trying to extrapolate the level of effort on this play to either player’s attitiude in general, just trying to discuss the best strategy for that specific situation. I couldn’t believe that Yadi’s effort on the play kept being discussed, because I saw nothing wrong with it and I’m usually the first to call out a lack of effort.

by hit and run on Jul 16, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, if it leads to Al getting let go this offseason

I’m all for it.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Since the update changed the order

can you update the order in the chart? Easiest way to see relative position for me.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Jul 16, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Albert is ridiculous

Albert has come up to the plate thirty six times this year (two thousand and nine) with a runner at third base and less than two outs.
- Eleven times he has walked (all intentionally)
- Out of the remaining twenty five times he was allowed to hit, eighty percent of the time he drove in at least the runner from third base (thirty eight total RBI’s)
- Four grand slams and one two-run homer
- One RBI double, one two-run double
- Three RBI singles, three two-run singles
- Five sacrifice flies, including one good for two runs
- Two RBI grounders
- Two double plays hit into, neither of which scored a run
- Two strikeouts and one liner to third

Albert is fully awesome

Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.

by Solanus on Jul 16, 2009 11:39 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OT -- Funniest thing I've read this week

Zimmerman at BTB

101 Ways to Improve Your Parents Basement.

My personal favorites:

  • Paint the spool you are using for a coffee table, maybe in your favorite team colors from The Home Depot.
  • Buy your own microwave, if you are going to eat only Hot Pockets, no need to walk up the stairs to warm them up.
  • Have something besides Major League, Bull Durham, The Program, Any Given Sunday and Slap Shot in the DVD changer. How about replace one movie with Brian’s Song or Pride of the Yankees. You don’t want to go too over board and put anything non-sports related in it.

I’ve bought every one of those movies on both VHS and DVD. I don’t live in my parents basement, but I’m not sure what else that says about me…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 16, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OT- Sunday tickets (sorry for the plug)

I threw up a quick FanShot about this, but those things tend to get pushed down really quickly. Anyway, I have 2 tix to Sunday’s game vs. the DBacks that I can no longer use. It’s a 1:15 start.

I wish I could simply donate them to a VEBer, but that won’t fly with my budget. I’ve got them posted at a bunch of different outlets and could probably stomach taking a little less from a VEBer if it came down to it.

Some really good pitcher is slated to start for Arizona, so if you’d like to see him and want more details, let me know. Feel free to post stuff here or send me a private message.

Again, my apologies for the advertising.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I am not aware of any good pitchers on the Diamondbacks

Brandon Webb was pretty good, but now he’s incognito and pitching for the Cardinals (the mustache is the best part of his disguise!).

by mojowo11 on Jul 16, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They have that

kid from Missouri…Scherzer (spelling?).

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Jul 16, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha, Ha. Hope it lasts. Brandon=Joel? I think Webb had a better K rate.

I guess you haven’t heard of Dan Haren or Max Scherzer? I would classify them as “good” pitchers, but that’s just me.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scherzer was mentioned above. What's with the plural "pitchers"?

Just curious: why is there a big empty space in your comment? It’s right after the word “of” and before “Max Scherzer” and it’s really confusing. At least, when I look there I don’t see anything. It’s almost like there’s something there but as soon as I focus on it it disappears. Strange…

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Huh?

I guess I’m too dim to follow what the heck you are talking about here.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dan Haren

does not exist anymore.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What doesn't exist???

Must be some VEB glitch.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

looks blank to me too....

It’s almost like she typed a proper noun in invisible ink font somehow. Weird.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am baffled both by...

…the strange blank space after “heard of” in your comment, and also by the uncontrollable flood of tears.

by mojowo11 on Jul 16, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn you guys and gals!

I came back from lunch and saw some yellow new comments under my ticket post and got all excited!

Of course, everyone takes this opportunity to talk about not talking about one of the DBacks’ starters (what was his name again?) and no one wants my tickets.

Crap.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I might've wanted your tickets

I just think that it could be boring with nobody starting for the Diamondbacks that day.

(Also I live in Chicago and am too poor to be going to baseball games these days.)

by mojowo11 on Jul 16, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ha....

(to the “nobody starting for the Diamondbacks” part, not the being poor part)

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wonderful post, chuckb

The quantification of catching defense is a noble pursuit, and I think you put together a great run at it.

Some questions for you and everyone else:

(1) So, we should pencil Ruiz in for a Gold Glove in 2012, but only if his BA is about .275?

(2) Now that catching defense has been handled, should chuckb get to work on tracking down Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster as his next feat?

(3) Lastly, how many times out of 10 would Yadi throw out 1987 Vince Coleman? (I am envisioning some sort of ABC Wide World of Sports special at Busch Stadium II with Yadi and Vince wearing “The Great Steal Challenge Which Violates the Time/Space Continuum” jerseys, Jack Buck doing the play-by-play, Fredbird, Musial throwing out the ceremonial first pitch, astroturf, and American-made Busch beer as the sponsor. Come to think of it, Nessie and Bigfoot can wait. Chuck, please get to work on time travel…)

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Jul 16, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hmmmm
Lastly, how many times out of 10 would Yadi throw out 1987 Vince Coleman?

Well, who’s pitching? If Greg Maddux is pitching, Vince wins every time. If Andy Pettitte or John Tudor are pitching, I think Yadi throws him out about 8 out of 10 times. I know this violates the spirit of what you’re trying to do here, but bases are stolen off the pitcher more than the catcher.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 16, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which sort of makes Yadi's ability to intimidate

Even more impressive, if you ask me. The fact that usually you can run off a pitcher regardless of catcher, but that Yadi sort of transcends that…cuhrazy.

by mojowo11 on Jul 16, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

chuck

well done. just wanted to add that.

it is amazing to get so many good posts on such a regular basis – all outside of the mainstream media coverage.

by cdb on Jul 16, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting question BECAUSE

Coleman would not get such a large lead. He’d have to stay closer to the bag otherwise Yadi would kill him.

by sdrone on Jul 16, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, don't forget monster trucks

jumping cars in the outfield.

by sdrone on Jul 16, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yadier Molina could pick off the batter from home plate

"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer

by jd is legend on Jul 16, 2009 12:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He couldn't catch Chuck Norris stealing

because not even Chuck tries to run on Yadier Molina.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chuck would not dive back to the bag on a Molina pickoff

He and the ball (frozen midway between home and first) would engage in a staredown that would last 1000 years or until Pujols hits under .300, whichever comes first.

by sdrone on Jul 16, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would rec this whole thread

But Yadi picked me off.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Jul 16, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

We are blessed to have a team that has both Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina

not to mention, Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter

great article as usual chuck!

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 1:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OT:just think.... in 2010, we could have the "The Red Diamond"

Machine at first
Yadi at catcher
Walrus at third
Raz in center

Others think it should be happening this year, but we’ll just have to wait and see.

That’s all I got….. I hate these off-days.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 16, 2009 1:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I know there's been a lot of naysayers about Wallace at third

but I think he will be able to do it

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

me too

at least for a few seasons.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Jul 16, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

word....

I’m not ready to buy into the “He can’t play 3B” just yet.

I feel like if his bat is as-advertised, it will offset some of the crappy defense we’re supposed to get with him. And honestly, it’s just really hard for me to believe he would walk into MLB as like the worst fielding thirdbasemen in the league. I dunno…just seems like there are worse dudes out there right now.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well

I actually saw him play a year ago, and he had quick reflexes and actually made a diving play over the railing to make a great catch…. and now he’s lost a lot of that weight. so I’d be surprised if he can’t at least play a passable third base if he continues to hit like he has.

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

cool that you had the opportunity to see him play

and apparently he looked alright even with all of his fat Walrus weight that would completely inhibit his ability to move left or right like, ever.

I’m with you man…unless we’re packaging him as the centerpiece to get Halladay, I’d love to see what he can do with the big club.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nah

he could still move to the left or right, he’s just a big boy

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that he is....

But his bat speed is what impressed me when I saw him here in OKC.

Machine like I hope.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 16, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

for the blue jays...

How did the pig corner the breakfast market?

by STLRegalia on Jul 16, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess they don't like the pitchers the cards have to offer though

but their price might go down if they don’t find a suitor

How did the pig corner the breakfast market?

by STLRegalia on Jul 16, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great work on putting this together

It’s good to see some quantification to our assurance that Yadi is just about the best defensive catcher in the game.

Now my (nitpicking) complaint. You have the signs reversed between the table and the lead-in discussion. For instance, in the description it says:

BR runs represents the number of runs that a catcher has cost his team by being unable to throw base runners out. A negative number means that he’s prevented more runs than he’s cost his team by throwing runners out.

But in the table, Yadi has a positive number for BR runs (thus costing his team) while Jason Kendall (for example) has a large negative number (thus preventing runs). To get positive numbers for RAA (positive being good) the BR runs column should represent BR runs prevented (which it does in the table, but not in the text).

A fairly minor point, perhaps, but I spent 10 minutes trying to figure out why Kendall had a better BR rating than Yadi.

by ArkansasTravs on Jul 16, 2009 2:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree with everybody else that this was well done

The Cards have a pretty good history with catchers. If you go back to when I first drew a breath, you’re talking about McCarver, Simmons, Porter, Pags, Pena, Matheny,and now Yadi. Hell, we even had Uecker at one time. That’s not just a terrible list to look at. Actually, now that I think about it, Joe Torre was a catcher for a couple of years. Most of the 90’s we didn’t really have a memorable catcher, at least not to me, except for the failed Todd Zeille experiment.

by cardfanndeboonies on Jul 16, 2009 3:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You mentioned

who our C was in the 90’s.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You got me on that one

I was working two full time jobs back then and not much of it sticks in my mind.

by cardfanndeboonies on Jul 16, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So any word on Derosa yet

he should technically be eligible to play tomorrow, right?

by mattyp on Jul 16, 2009 3:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

if you look at the track record of players coming back from the injury

it will be another month or so at least b4 you see derosa play

by FunkeeC on Jul 16, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

my guess is that we may see him around mid august

but that’s just a guess

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

got that is just annoying

but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you’re right.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bernie said in a column today...

the team is looking at the end of next week.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Jul 16, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that too...

not sure if I’m buying.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've bought a few too many times

I am definitely not buying anymore. In fact, I am selling.

by mojowo11 on Jul 16, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You

will see DeRosa and Glaus in the paper everyday until the 31st.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doing what?

Jump roping? Solving mysteries? Eating twizzlers?

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Management reminding

you of why they aren’t making any moves.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh

I was hoping they were drafting crafty letters to the editor regarding the Tour De Missouri.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HA!

Can’t believe they cut funding to that event!

/shakes fist

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The mountain

sections were to difficult.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The mountains win again.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions   4 recs

They always do

"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer

by jd is legend on Jul 16, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We have a Tour De Georgia

It just sounds white trash compared to the Tour De France

"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer

by jd is legend on Jul 16, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do they actually say "de"?

Because that’s kind of pathetic. This is America, people. “De” is not a word in the English language. “Of” works just fine.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not believing anything till they...

give a day of the week. Late next week easily turns into late the next week.

"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs

by cardzfanbub on Jul 16, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

color me dubious

I’ll believe it when I see him in a batting line-up.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 16, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll believe it

when he grounds out to third

How did the pig corner the breakfast market?

by STLRegalia on Jul 16, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Lookout Landing is teh funneh

Jeff wrote a hilarious piece comparing each Mariners player to something that would happen to you in the car. Very random, but also very funny.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Is Carlos Silva - Rick Ankiel?

Hilarious indeed, esp Carlos Silva

Carlos Silva: you’re driving around a lonely stretch of highway when your car starts to smell funny, and it breaks down just as you’re crossing the train tracks, and then the railroad barriers sound off and lower themselves, and then your doors jam and won’t open, and OH MY GOD THERE’S A COBRA IN THE GLOVE COMPARTMENT

by madridbend on Jul 16, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This post signifies my appreciation of your post.

This painting signifies smart-aleckiness.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been trying to remember to read it more.

It’s awesome and I have Seattle ties (may end up living there) so I kind of consider the M’s my honorary second team.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Super Off Topic

but it’s a slow day and RB got his press credentials pulled.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 5:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He was actually ejected

by Angel Hernandez. Or so I was told.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ouch... that had to hurt

image link failed….. darn it.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Jul 16, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's pretty weak

especially considering that all that info is freely-available. I saw that map too and laughed about it, but it’s not like they even had the address or anything. I mean, it’s an icon on a less-detailed google map, essentially. I’m sure where these cats live there are plenty of upscale homes, so it’s not like Waino’s house would scream “Good curveball and creepy ’stache lives here” or anything.

That’s dumb.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The print version

had their addresses.

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow

file that under what were they thinking

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is difficult situation

for one of our friends apparently. I will give you a little inside information.

Chances that Pujols’ agent hasn’t made “many” calls on this topic don’t exist. He will welcome this opportunity to bounce off of the Cardinals and be earning his keep, babying a concerned Albert. This after all is the guy that advises Albert not to right alone in an elevator with a single women. Wainwright’s agent will also have to log in. They will be seeking assurances form the Cardinals and most likely be asking for moneys to upgrade home security. Six figures with crooked numbers.
Meanwhile the Cardinals took the first step in illuminating their relationship with RFT on Tuesday, what ever that was. Since the apology is also an admission of responsibility and thus liability, they will be forced to clarify any responsibility for oversight of said advertising. If they had some thats good for our side. If not, the shit storm is just brewing. BD is very conservative. He will let his attorneys deal with the problem. He will be thinking of what he is going to do with his new paper. I feel bad for RB, but these are some of the problems surrounding naive idolatry. I’m sure the Cardinals will make this problem go away. Welcome to the big leagues.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright, where's everyone who

threw a fit whenever I posted that these “inside info,” semi-coherent (if I’m being generous) posts were by none other than WCBW.

It started out as just vague ramblings that just seemed like maybe Opera was stoned and not particularly skilled in the stylistics of written English. For the record, I’m fine with either, mostly because I don’t particularly care what people do within their homes and also that this is a baseball message board on the interwebs.

However, these posts have not-so-slowly escalated into more and more “inside information,” coupled with more and more and more wild speculation and amateur diagnoses (see the Bipolar Express comment from a day or two ago), and just utter weirdness (and no, “utter” does not refer to the MooCow).

If I recall, this is pretty much the same thing LB banned WCBW for a while back. WCBW or not, this is just getting out of hand, IMO.

/Head explodes
/Still waiting at Grassy Knoll for the foil helmet designed to remedy said exploding head problem. Opera…you promised.

by goodymobb on Jul 16, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I know

several Christian men – non-celebrities – who avoid being alone with women who aren’t their wives or families to the point that they won’t ride in cars with, say, a long-time friend of their wife. So, I’m gonna guess his agent didn’t tell him that.

Second, his agent is the guy who negotiates contracts for him. Albert surely has a media consultant (at least one!) to handle his image. If his agent is doing both, I hope he’s being paid accordingly.

Third, there is no way to make the problem go away. The addresses have been leaked. Unless the Cardinals are moving everyone into new homes, I doubt much changes in that regard. Might they sue? Sure, but it doesn’t change anything.

Fourth, unless you can verify your sources, no one fucking cares.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Spants you should be

embarrassed. You really don’t have any idea what your talking about. My final word on this is to you Baron, you have my e-mail address, you would be smart to use it.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why should I be embarrassed?

Nothing I said is inaccurate.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay,

I will apologize for swearing at you. The rest stands.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

fwiw, technically, you swore at "us"

us being the “authorial” us, who is/are the person(s) doing the fucking caring, as opposed to the person(s) doing the things “we” may or may not fucking care about.

so no need to apologize to yonder gent.

the end of every half inning IS a turning point. -Evilfrog

by SleepyCA on Jul 16, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

haha, thanks.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OTOH

I tried using that argument in, like, the 5th grade, and it didn’t go over well. But speaking truth to power rarely does.

the end of every half inning IS a turning point. -Evilfrog

by SleepyCA on Jul 16, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You do realize that

red baron did not write the problem article nor the apology, he only had his credentials pulled. RFT should have some decent E&O insurance in which case the insurance company’s lawyers will match up with BD’s lawyers and may the blustering begin.

by ubeddie on Jul 16, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ZOMG

The RFT leaked public info. However will we put the genie who was already out the bottle back in the bottle?

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 17, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

heh

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 17, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

 

several Christian men – non-celebrities – who avoid being alone with women who aren’t their wives or families to the point that they won’t ride in cars with, say, a long-time friend of their wife. So, I’m gonna guess his agent didn’t tell him that.

(All of what your saying here spants I’m sure is true. However, I’m sure Albert’s reasons for avoiding an elevator were not about temptation or modesty. Athletes with money are an easy target for grifter’s. Agents will tell you that there are 10 cases settled for money concerning false attempted rape accusations, to every one that reaches the news. This is I’m rich 101, taught by every agent. Its a guy thing.)

Second, his agent is the guy who negotiates contracts for him. Albert surely has a media consultant (at least one!) to handle his image. If his agent is doing both, I hope he’s being paid accordingly.

(Albert’s commercial or media activities are probably coordinated by an employee of his Agent. The Scott Boras Corporation offers all services including paying all your bills.)

Third, there is no way to make the problem go away. The addresses have been leaked. Unless the Cardinals are moving everyone into new homes, I doubt much changes in that regard. Might they sue? Sure, but it doesn’t change anything.

(No, things can be changed, but the remedies are very expensive.)

Fourth, unless you can verify your sources, no one fucking cares.

(I don’t think so Spants. I know you care for me. My sources must remain anonymous, so its ok to discount my opinions here. So just be amused at my stupidity. That entertainment.)

by OperaCard on Jul 17, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

1. So,

why do other celebrities/athletes ride elevators with single women? Obviously Albert cares about his image very much. I understand that. But I think for him, it goes deeper. There are several reasons for him not to get on that elevator.

2. His agent may have someone to handle Albert’s media whatever – but that person is a media consultant. One man is not telling Albert how to behave in public while simultaneously on the phone with Nike and the St. Louis Cardinals, paying Albert’s bills, calling (or handling calls from) news stations and radio stations and magazines to set up interviews, etc. There are other people – lots of people – involved, no matter who they work for.

3. I wasn’t aware that time travel had been invented and put to practical use. If you’re talking about them hiring security, well, big fat duh.

4. Anyone can claim they have sources. Sources (sometimes) remain anonymous in journalism b/c the journalist is putting his/her name on an item. You are also anonymous. Your posts are no different than those on a blog talking about which athlete had an affair with which athlete’s wife, or which athlete is gay, or which athlete has a cocaine issue, etc. It’s all unverifiable, no one is sticking their neck out on the story, AND, it’s on a blog where that kind of thing is NOT valued as entertainment. Further, even if you truly do have sources, it’s still not interesting b/c your posts are so convoluted, cryptic, and coded as to mean anything.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 17, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nonsensical exclamation!

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 17, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A guy named Opera ...

is obviously looking for the drama here. His last to comments clearly indicate that he’s just goading you into the fight ‘cuz it makes him feel special. We’re all better off to ignore his kind of nonsense. Someone that argues with made-up facts, isn’t going to be disuaded by real facts.

by etp_stl on Jul 17, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How do you know I'm not goading him?

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 17, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think

it was tacky. And an overreaction on the part of the Cardinals.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mean,

I think what the RFT did was tacky. Yes, first amendment, blahblah. But it was unnecessary.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree on both parts

I was really surprised they put them in there when I read it.

But if anyone wants to throw flaming bags of poo at Hrabosky’s house…

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Old man Hrabosky still calls the shit poop!

"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" - Jeff Francouer

by jd is legend on Jul 16, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

This was bad taste, IMO.

I’m sure it was meant to be done in humor, but sometimes jokes fail. That’s what happened here, IMO; and I think the Cards players have a right to be ticked. While rational people wouldn’t consider going to bother these people at their homes, consider the vitriol that is often expressed on different forum boards. This article fueled the opportunity for some liquored-up imbecile to decide that being ticked off about a bad play is reason enough to go trash a house. Most of us don’t think like crazed fans, but it only takes one to decide that Albert is going to be his best friend, or die trying.

Violating the players’ personal privacy seems like a pretty good reason to have your credentials revoked, to me.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

These guys have

wives, and small children. There are criminals, and then there are dope deranged idiots.
Apologies aren’t going to get it here. His ass may have been kicked, but a dollar on a dime says it stays kicked for a good long time. Waino lives in a upscale residential location with two small children. He can’t fortify.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 6:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Free paper.

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

After looking at it

HC, it looks to be more a bad Idea than anything else. It seems an unfortunate learning experience. I will say that the description on the ease in finding the addresses probably shouldn’t have been offered either, unless of course it has a positive effect in some sort of remedy. The Cardinals are just covering there ass’s too. The Stars in Hollywood have all sorts of security that the players don’t opt for. It seems unfortunate and the apology sincere. Live and learn.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how this makes it less of a bad idea.

So, it’s ok to do all of the research for them and post it in a free, local paper? That’s absurd. Most people are not as versed in researching such things as journalists are. In addition, they even posted in the apology how to do the research, so that makes it worse. It was a failed attempt to be funny, and the RFT is facing the consequences for it.

I don’t find the apology to be even remotely sincere, which means they have yet to even believe they did anything wrong. This make the punishment all the more important.

Contrary to the statement in that smug apology, nothing here violated his right to free speech. Contrary to the mistakenly held opinion, free speech does not protect a person from all consequences based on what he/she communicates; but it simply protects the person from legal ramifications. So, the RFT has lost the opportunity to gain access to members of the Cardinals organization. That does not prevent them from excercising their right to free press, as, again, this does not indicate that the Cardinals will legally pursue the publication for future stories regarding the team. They simply won’t provide them with personal interviews or direct access. Too bad.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It seemed an honest mistake.

The money surrounding Hollywood type of tours, which this was just a parody of, is what pays for enhanced police surveillance and security. It just didn’t occur to them apparently. Publishing actual street addresses is the trouble. And I dare say you haven’t heard the last of it. The Cardinals are bound to sue just to cover their own liability.

by OperaCard on Jul 16, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Grounds for the lawsuit

would be what? Would the public government which provides internet access to the information be a party as well? Only thing a lawsuit will gain is legal fees.

by ubeddie on Jul 16, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm still not convinced this is WCWB

that dude’s ego wouldn’t let him keep quiet if he was back

It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan

by gdm426 on Jul 17, 2009 5:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it looks like a duck,

sounds like a duck and uses nonsensical statements like a duck, it’s a duck.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Or a quack!

Hah… see what I did there?

Derosa.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 18, 2009 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pos on Stan the Man

Posnanski again lauds the greatness of Stan including the following:

“Sometimes it seems like Musial’s brilliance has been lost — or, at least misplaced — in baseball history. Maybe it’s because his greatness was in his consistency — and consistency is so hard to capture. He had 1,815 hits at home and 1,815 hits on the road. He hit .300 for 16 consecutive years and won seven batting titles. He led the league in runs five times, in RBIs twice, he walked 100 times or more three times. And so on. And so on.

Then, maybe it’s because his greatness was in his class — and class is hard to capture too. Nobody has ever been more loved — by teammates and competitors alike — than Stan Musial. Nobody ever played the game with more heart."

by OCCardsFan on Jul 16, 2009 6:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He also had an article on his blog about the All-Star festivities

He pretty much agreed with Bernie’s column about it (and a lot of people here) that it wasn’t exactly the great Stan the Man tribute we were all hoping for. Much more nuance than that of course. Good stuff as usual from Pos.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Jul 16, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Julio Lugo

per MLBTR, the Sox are shopping him and “have informed teams that they are willing to assume virtually all of shortstop Julio Lugo’s remaining salary in a trade.”

He’s under contract next year as well.

Move him to 2nd and put Skip in LF?

THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!

by stltrav09 on Jul 16, 2009 7:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

also..

Red Sox say they expect a “fringe prospect” in return. Very low risk pickup

THE SKIP IS LEGIT!!

by stltrav09 on Jul 16, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just say no

....my quick smells like french toast...

by mstreeter06 on Jul 16, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

first post

not sure if i’m diggin julo lugo…freddie sanchez, yes. it will cost more but makes more sense to me. lugo has always came off to me as a wannabe thug. and now he’s underacheiving. are they paying next years salary as well? no thanks

"A slick way to out-figure a person is to get him figuring you figure he's figuring you're figuring he'll figure you aren't really figuring what you want him to figure you figure." ~ Whitey Herzog

by birdsonabat on Jul 16, 2009 7:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Watching the Brewers-Reds game...

Aaron Harang was talking to the broadcasters with the headset in the dugout. And he may be the dullest human on the planet. Also, Homer Bailey…not so good. But you knew that.

V, b.

by LukeMP1186 on Jul 16, 2009 8:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

so pujols sits out with

mild “stiffness” today…(strauss twitter)…i’ll be soooo pissed off if he got hurt in that stupid ass homerun derby

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jul 16, 2009 8:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He's more likely to be stiff from ...

his defensive plays in the game. He seemed to be moving just fine on Tuesday, so I wouldn’t think it would have anything to do with the HR Derby.

by etp_stl on Jul 16, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nothing really new in there

Besides that Al wont get fired. Media just needs to let it pass. But that isn’t what the media does.

by Evilfrog on Jul 16, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Other than they are still talking about it today

Time to stop talking about it. It really isn’t this big of a deal.

by Merry CRasmus on Jul 16, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

none of those quotes are new qoutes.

Unless i’m missing something…

by Evilfrog on Jul 16, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

reminds me of Edmonds-LaRussa last summer

some off hand comments by Jim fed to Tony fed back to Jim just ot keep the story warm.

Based on this line, I don’t think the author watched any of Colby’s starts.

Hrabosky pointing out something negative about a Cardinal is out of character…

by ubeddie on Jul 16, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He may not get fired

but, as the article notes, his contract is up at the end of the year.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Jul 16, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no hortons, no hortons, no hortons!

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 16, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For all intents and purposes,

La Russa has a lifetime contract until he decides he’s done.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't disagree

but seeing it in pixels makes me sad. I just hope WJ fires Dusty so we can have hope.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 17, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It will be interesting, as ...

LaRussa seems to be growing tired of St. Louis. He seems to be extremely irritable lately about everything, and I don’t think he likes the direction of the organization.

I’ve said to others that I’m not convinced he is the right guy for this new direction, anyway. He knows his time is drawing nigh, and he wants to manage only to win. The constant threats of “you better go get what I want” seem to be indicating his weariness of waiting for this supply of prospects to arrive.

by etp_stl on Jul 17, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see La Russa

leaving the Cardinals as long as Albert is here. Who would stop managing Albert Pujols?

"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Jul 17, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

off days suck.

the end of every half inning IS a turning point. -Evilfrog

by SleepyCA on Jul 17, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

dan caesar is the PD's media dude

but you know he has no fucking clue what he’s talking about with this line

The root of the flap is that Hrabosky, whose FSM contract expires after this season, is known for being outspoken about as much as Albert Pujols is for bunting. So that’s the key element that has fueled the spat — Hrabosky pointing out something negative about a Cardinal is out of character, even though the criticism is far from a Harry Caray-like blast of the home team in the 1960s when he’d rip Ken Boyer (p-aaaaaaaaaaaa-ped it up)" or the whole team (“Can’t anybody do anything right around here?”). Hrabosky’s view was a mild nudge compared to that.

AL constantly rips on players. we all know this for a fact. next time dan , why don’t you do some research & watch a game or two before you start talking out your ass?

It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan

by gdm426 on Jul 17, 2009 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Yeah

now if the quote Hrabosky pointing out something negative about one of TLR’s pets was out of character then I could buy into that.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jul 17, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That wouldn't even be accurate.

I’ve never noticed Al to pull too many punches. If anything, he’s gotten softer over the last several years than when he started. He used to be a lot worse about the “back in my day” ramblings, though I like the perspective in smaller doses.

by etp_stl on Jul 17, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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