Batting the pitcher 8th

by nmckenzie1 on Jul 15, 2009 7:51 PM EDT

Many times on this blog I have been graced with very impressive statistical analysis by the readers and others who care deeply about Cardinal baseball. We have all had our internal disagreements with Tony LaRussa during his tenure here in St. Louis, but despite all that, he has become one of the most successful managers in the history of baseball. A good deal of his legacy will reflect the time he spent here and the decisions he made day in and day out. So here is the challenge that I pose to the readers and more knowledgeable of this blog:

Has LaRussa's decision to bat the pitcher 8th actually had a measurable influence on the runs scored by this franchise?

Observing our relative inability to provide offense this year, (with the obvious exception of the superhuman Albert Pujols), has this particular strategy benefitted the Cardinals in a way that we can tell?

Better question: Would the current version of the St. Louis Cardinals actually score less runs if LaRussa did not employ this tactic? (A chlling thought, I know....)

Please, someone with some experience with FanGraphs or other statistical baseball knowledge far beyond my own attempt to answer this question for me?

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i don't know how

to organize the stats in a manner to find the info

but i think you would just compare runs scored by the #9 hitter in games where the pitcher bats 8th to runs driven in by the #8 hitter when the pitcher bats ninth

intuitively, i like it. i have more faith in thurston/boog/skip’s abilities to get on base and be driven in than in thurston/boog/skip(to a lesser extent)’s ability to drive in the runners on base

with a stronger lineup, it’s probably the other way around. and in those situations, tony bats the pitcher 9th

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jul 15, 2009 8:06 PM EDT reply actions

and

i think the fact that tony does this based on the team’s ability to score runs would probably taint the data

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jul 15, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Here’s Goold’s Article From Last Year On It

"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah

by Alxfritz on Jul 15, 2009 8:12 PM EDT reply actions

Tango pretty much found it to have no affect

They did sims, which is probably the best way to go about it, and they found that it was about +2 runs over a full season.

Derosa.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 15, 2009 9:21 PM EDT reply actions

that's like a whole brad thompson quotient.

we’ll never be rid of either!

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Jul 15, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Then again, that sim is presumable conducted with an average lineup

Since the whole point of batting the pitcher 8th is to have more men on for Pujols, that kind of a study wouldn’t be very helpful.

Derosa.

by vivaelpujols on Jul 16, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions

Interesting philosophical point -

is it worth MORE or LESS if your pitchers are above-average hitters (for pitchers)? I’m guessing it’s probably less (thus, if you have Adam Wainwright and Braden Looper pitching it probably balances out to be pretty much worthless – however, I’m guessing our 5 starters average out to be pretty much dead average hitters; Wainwright – v.good, Carpenter – pretty hopeless, Pineiro – kinda OK, Lohse – kinda OK, Welly – kinda mediocre).

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Jul 21, 2009 4:53 AM EDT up reply actions

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=STL&year=2009

the pitcher has batted eighth less than half the time this season

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 1:43 AM EDT reply actions

Stats for the Starters

show that they had 203 PAs, 120 0f which where in the 8-slot, for 59%.

by chenequa on Jul 16, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions

good point

I just counted the number of people and other players have seen the 8 spot more often, shoulda looked at PAs (it was late)

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions

regardless though

I don’t think batting the pitcher 8th has much of an effect

Cardinal fanatic since '82

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Let's see

Albert Pujols is leading the league in RBI’s right now despite being walked more than any other player in baseball.

I’d say something is working….

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jul 16, 2009 8:43 AM EDT reply actions

i've wondered

if batting the pitcher 8th torches a bullpen more thanhitting him 8th. obviously, not a lot. and carrying 13 pitchers lessens the bullpen stress.

by tim815 on Jul 16, 2009 9:14 AM EDT reply actions

what's the difference

between batting the pitcher 8th and hitting him 8th?

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Jul 16, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions

if your main position

to pinch hit for is hitting eighth, the opposition can iBB their way into the eighth spot one hitter sooner. hence, you might have to pinch hit a bit earlier.

by tim815 on Jul 16, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions