The Depressing Realization That The NL All Star Team Could Essentially Cost Less Than The Cardinals
by Alxfritz on Jul 14, 2009 6:33 PM EDT
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PrintGather 'round the ol' lemon tree, kids, an old man is going to tell you a story. A story about how with good drafts, cost controlled players, and a few shrewd free agent signings, somewhere in an alternate world full of bacon and vodka, you could essentially have the National Leagues starting lineup, rotation, and bullpen corps' core for less than the Cardinals are paying the team you see with Joe Thurston at third and Anikucan in left over the last 91 games.
First, lets go with the everyday eight:
Hanley Ramirez: $5.5M
Chase Utley: $11M
Albert Pujols: $16M
Ryan Braun: $745K
Raul Ibanaz: $6.5M
David Wright: $7.5M
Shane Victorino:$3.125M
Yadier Molina: $3.25M
Your lineup total: 53.62 Million Dollars.
That is some value.
And since you're probably not paying attention anymore, here's a random picture for you to make fun of: 
Now lets take this even a step further and use the rosters to start creating a whole team.
Here is the rotation:
Dan Haren: $7.5M
Tim Lincecum: $650K
Matt Cain: $2.65M
Chad Billingsly: $0.475M
Zack Duke: $2.2M
So, your rotation will cost you: $13.475, which is $4M less than the Cubs pay Zambrano to be adequate.
Now, let us form the nucleus of our bullpen:
Jonathon Broxton: $1.825M
Heath Bell: $1.255M
Ryan Franklin: $2.5M*
K-Rod: $8.5M
The bullpen, before adding LOOGys and filler is $14.08M.
Which brings us to a grand total of $81.175M.
We are going to use only minor leaguers and vets who are willing to sign for the league min, so the remaining eight players will cost us $5M, give or take.
Our opening day payroll will be: $86.2M (I gave myself 25K to even it out and as a bonus. This adding and subtracting shit is hard.)
The Cardinals 2009 opening day payroll? $88,528,409.
*Even though he sucks.
[Note: I had to sign K-Rod to close for the team because in my alternate reality, someone named Mernie Biklasz with the Saint Louis Dispatch-Post complained that I was not spending enough money and started saying "it's time for him to open the 'wALlet Fritz.'"]
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Damn it
sadtrombone.com is down. My Fan Post is ruined!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
This isn't right
there isn’t really a starter named Dan Haren out there
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
la la la laaa
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Now I got...
the Smurfs themesong in my head!
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
i swear you said smurfs threesome the first ten times i read that
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
And the team would be even cheaper
if you signed Mark Mulder to replace Haren in the rotation!
But of course
this doesn’t account for where some of these contracts will be in 3 or so years.
But yeah, good stuff nonetheless!
On with the (good) youth movement!
Of course...
This is why you invest heavily in player development — Rasmus being in the All-Star game sometime soon would be another example.
We only have...
two blatantly stupid contracts. And both those guys are currently contributing. So that’s not bad.
6.5
for khalil isn’t looking too great right now
of course he could be a bargain if he played like he could
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
you forgot the essential part of all of this.
you are making a cardinal team.
ergo, by march 1, broxton will have sprained his hip, chase utley will have torn his hammy, dan haren will need tommy john surgery, raul ibanez will have annoyed tony by giving an off-season interview and saying that he hopes to start a lot of games and tony will be calling you begging to have him traded, tim linececum will have viral meningitis, and david wright will have developed a paralyzing fear of the color green.
now your team has brad thompson and sid ponson starting 40% of the time, joe thurston at third, and aaron miles starting at second. your fancy-dancy prospect team doesn’t look so hot now, does it cowboy!?!?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 14, 2009 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 11 recs
it's funny
because it’s true.
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
sad, but true
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
no oblique injuries or anxiety issues?
Nelly > Dunc
by zoomzoomj88 on Jul 14, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually Tim would have all new mechanics.
He would be standing more upright to get on top of his fastball. He would have a new armslot and pitch to contact. He would mysteriously lose 5mph off his fastball and scrap his changeup while struggling to learn a cutter.
After the changes his lack of results would have him moved to the pen for “size reasons”. He would then be packaged in a trade for a backup MIF hitting .213.
by DriverZn on Jul 15, 2009 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
it's scary how dead on this is
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
hah!
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 15, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
HA HA
I don’t comment much on posts but this was brilliant. Great post great comments very well done VEB that is why I love this site.
Ah, that lemon tree was haunted.
Now let’s all enjoy a nice glass of turnip juice.
by Andyfantastic on Jul 15, 2009 12:48 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
that picture is awesome
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I don't even know where to start with the insults
There are just too many sitting right there in front of me
by AWolfAtTheDoor on Jul 15, 2009 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
This is the reason many of use oppose "win now" trades.
Because you could win a lot more in the future if you are patient.
Who here isn’t glad Mo didn’t give into those that wanted to trade Rasmus for Holliday last season?
There is no rule either way on this...
if you have a deep team some of your top prospects are going to turn out to be wash-outs, some all-stars. A win-now approach at cost of being Houston or Nationals in the future…yah that is bad. But, win-now with being relatively equal in future as is current is not bad.
Actually, it's not
This is the reason many of use oppose “win now” trades.
I could build a pretty good team too if I could cherry pick all of the young, cost-controlled superstars from an entire league, and that team would be cheap. The problem is that you don’t get to do that in reality — you generally don’t have more than 8 picks in the top 120 selections in the draft in any one year, and most of those guys listed above were selected in those top 120 picks I would guess — I don’t have the time to look it up. Of those 8 guys, probably 3 will never be productive players in the major leagues (and that’s conservative) and only 1 of those guys will be worth more than 10 WAR over his career. That’s a pretty damn big crapshoot, isn’t it?
The reason most of us oppose “win now” trades is that we can see the writing on the wall and know that ownership isn’t going to stand for a $120M payroll. In order to win and keep payroll down, you need cost-effective players from your minor league system to play better than league average for your team. Generally, those players are going to be in your top 5 prospects and the guys you would have to trade in a “win now trade” scenario. So we don’t advocate trading our best minor league prospects for a 2 month rental of a player, especially when there are multiple holes to fill on the current squad that one player cannot fill on his own. Also, in the past 5 years or so, our “win now” trades have been trading away crappy prospects for average major league players, or dealing for a supposed staff ace who had arm problems (which was an utter disaster). There haven’t been any big trades made by the Cardinals in the past 5 seasons really, unless you count an over-the-hill Larry Walker, which was a salary move by the Rockies, plain and simple.
All that being said, when the team is in contention, most of us expect the front office to make the necessary moves to help the team win the title, but you have to temper your expectations based on payroll obligations. Trading for Roy Halladay, even if it costs us Wallace, Jones, and 3 other good prospects is really a no-brainer in terms of TALENT and HELPING THE CURRENT TEAM. But it makes very little sense to short term or long term payroll obligations to trade 5 cost controlled prospects for 8 months of Roy Halladay.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
rasmus this year
wallace next year, shelby miller the following year, mateo the following year. if we’re patient we can have a pretty solid team. no, we won’t get three evan longorias each year, but we’ll get solid contributors every year if we draft and trade smart
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Just because you draft a guy in the first round
doesn’t mean he becomes an All Star. Wagner Mateo is 16 years old. SIXTEEN! Rasmus looks to be a very good and valuable player, but he’s not the next Griffey — I hope he’s the next Grady Sizemore with more walks and fewer K’s.
You’re confusing “drafting smart” with “acquiring good talent” — there’s a huge difference between 18 year old Shelby Miller, who hasn’t signed yet and hasn’t thrown a single professional pitch, and Roy Halladay, who’s been dominating the league for the last 3/4 of a decade. MIght Shelby Miller become Roy Halladay? Sure, but the odds that happens are astronomical and it’s not a bet that I would make.
if we’re patient we can have a pretty solid team.
I don’t want a “solid” team. If that was enough to make me happy I’d be a Royals fan. I want a team that can compete for division titles, pennants, and World Series championships. The Cardinals are in a position to do that right now, so if there’s a move they can make that puts them in contention and doesn’t sacrifice our entire farm system I expect them to make it. Did I feel this way last year or the year before? No, because I didn’t think that we were in a position to make a run at a championship due to injuries to the rotation and bullpen. This year I think we have a legit shot, and I expect the front office to do what they can to put the best team out on the field.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
well then I think we have a problem
“I don’t want a "solid" team. If that was enough to make me happy I’d be a Royals fan. I want a team that can compete for division titles, pennants, and World Series championships.”
I think your view of compete for the division, pennants, and the WS differs from how the Cards’ organization has been run the last few years. The message that the team has been sending has been efficiency over everything, even excellence. I believe that whoever is actually in charge would like to repeat the result of 2006 over again as many times as possible. That is to say they want to use as little resources possible and still make the playoffs, which are virtually universally judged as a tossup, and find a whole lotta luck to come out on top. It makes sense to me at least that because the results of the playoffs are so random, having the best team going in won’t necessarily do you much good (see cubs, 2008, haha). However, the FO needs to do everything in its powers to keep this team a perennial playoff contender. I am sure that the FO does not intentionally downgrade the team but it seems very wary of making the Teixeria/Haren deals and overpaying for a product that may not be as good as the previous, especially in future years. But I agree that fans have the responsibility to urge their team to be always improving, and fan pressure on the GM and ownership is healthy and necessary to motivate them to be as good as they can be.
If 4 out of 5 people SUFFER from diarrhea... does that mean that one enjoys it?
I think your view of compete for the division, pennants, and the WS differs from how the Cards’ organization has been run the last few years.
It does.
That is to say they want to use as little resources possible and still make the playoffs,
This is true for the last couple of years, but that doesn’t mean I have to be happy with it.
However, the FO needs to do everything in its powers to keep this team a perennial playoff contender.
We’ve finally gotten the what I was talking about. They haven’t done that the past two years. There were opportunities to improve the ballclub at the trading deadline for next to nothing in talent or $$$ and the FO didn’t make a move. Consequently, we didn’t make the playoffs in either season. It’s one thing to be efficient, it’s another to be frugal, and I think we’ve seen some frugality from the front office since the 2006 title run. There’s no question about it.
You can upgrade your team without selling out the entire farm system. You can win now and win later. But to waste two of Pujols’ prime seasons because you don’t want to upgrade the ballclub and are planning for the future seems a bit wasteful when you dropped $40M on a pitcher like Kyle Lohse before last offseason. Our “farm system” should be able to produce some league average pitching and Lohse has been above league average only twice in his career.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
i'm not confusing anything
drafting smart is an improtant step to acquiring good talent. so is trading smart. trading six years of a potential all star bat for an aging, expensive superstar is not trading smart
and of course mateo, miller and even wallace aren’t sure things. i was just making a point. if the farm can’t turn out one solid contender each year, then something is wrong
and if rasmus isn’t a future perennial all star, my name is susan and i’m from the philippines
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Rasmus will make some All-Star teams, no question,
but he’s not a HOF player, in my mind, nor will he a be a “perennial” All-Star in the outfield. He will be an superior offensive and defensive centerfielder for the forseeable future.
if the farm can’t turn out one solid contender each year, then something is wrong
No, that’s just how the farm system works. You’re not always going to get awesome talent from the farm system simply by drafting great players because not all of them make it. I think Luhnow has done a fantastic job and I’m glad to see the Cards are players in the Latin American free agent market, but there’s no way I would judge our farm system on the basis of it turning out an everyday player or productive pitcher every single year. That doesn’t happen in the very BEST of farm systems, and we certainly aren’t there yet.
and if rasmus isn’t a future perennial all star, my name is susan and i’m from the philippines
Be careful what you wish for when making predictions based on fan voting…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
contender should be contributor
and sure, all star teams are are made up of players voted in by fans. i’m confident in saying that pablo sandoval is an all star caliber player this year. and rasmus will be for several years to come
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I actually do know a Susan from there
prophet is that you?
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Jul 17, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
me love you long time?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Awesome post
It’s in fashion to think you can just sweep the land with your scouts make awesome drafts and have a team of allstars for say, under 82 mil.
The problem is not every stud pick is going to turn out to be Tim Lincecum or Josh Beckett…
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
btw, I did mean awesome post. That wasn't sarcasm.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I think the Yankees GM will get around to reading this post in 4 years-
sign all these players for 40 mil each, except Pujols because I can’t even joke about that, then wonder why everyone’s getting injured or finding out they did Steroids.
good work!
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 15, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions
Nobody commented on the fucking Cubs fan on a fucking horse!?!
That thing is gold!
"I usually don’t read other peoples sigs." -Cuttah
by Alxfritz on Jul 16, 2009 2:33 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I couldn't think of a reply...
because I laughed so hard when I first saw it, my head exploded.
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Jul 16, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, that pic is gold
Cardinal fanatic since '82
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jul 16, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
i hear you bro, i do
i’m just glad no one on their side has found the cardinal cowboy
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
It's that dork Ronnie Woo Woo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fyZWn_0YA
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
rec'd for the pic.
"I've played a couple of hundred games of tic-tac-toe with my little daughter and she hasn't beaten me yet. I've always had to win. I've got to win." - Bob Gibson
I don't know that this is a depressing realization about the Cardinals
as much as it is an interesting realization about the talent in the NL. Either way, interesting thought.
I can see it now: the 2009 NL All Star Team finishing the season with a 144-18 record… after getting swept in play. At least they’d win the pennant.
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