Should Edmonds be in the hall of fame?
by vivaelpujols on Jun 4, 2009 7:16 PM EDT
75 comments
(Because I am an idiot, I didn't look at the FanShots today and didn't realize that JBrew posted something very similar to this post. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm mooching off of his idea.)
We are now over 1/3 of the way into the season, and Jim Edmonds is still not on a major league team. That comes a pretty big shock given his success in Chigaco last year (d'oh); but now as a 41 year old who hasn's swung a bat in a while and probably needs a cain to go to the bathroom, it looks like Jimmy Edmonds' career is over. Erik Seidman at FanGraphs already had a nice post, in which he expressed a sentimental opinion about Edmond's career and how he should not be forgotten admist HOF discussion. Unfortunately, I am going to ignore his advice and approach Edmonds' career from a purely statistical point of view to see whether he should be in the HOF.
To do this, I will be making use of Rally's WAR found at baseballprojection.com. First off, hitting:
Edmonds was always known for his fielding, but during his prime he was one of the best hitters in baseball. From 2000-2004, he was worth at least 40 runs with the bat alone each season. In his 2004 season, he put up a .436 wOBA and was worth over 50 runs with the bat! He walked in nearly 17% of his plate appearances, and had a .341 ISO. Insanity.
Now let's take a look at is fielding:
Again, Jimmy's peak in this category was amazing. In his best 3 years with the glove, from 03-05, he was worth an average of 18 runs with the glove! Overall, he saved an aggregate 92 runs in his career in comparison to the league average center fielder. In for those guys who don't like stats, you can't argue with this:
I don't remember what game that was in, maybe someone can enlighten me, but that just looks like an insanely sick play. (side note: I tried to find a video, but they were all of him with the Cubs, grr...)
Okay, so amazing offense: check. Physics defying defense: check. Now lets take a look at the total production that Edmonds offered as a player, including positional and replacement level adjustments and douple play and baserunning scores:
An interesting career graph to say the least. He was worth over 6 WAR seven times in his career, and had 3 additional seasons in which he was worth at least 4 WAR! In 11 out of his 16 seasons, he was an allstar caliber player. Unfortunately, when he wasn't, he was pretty bad. This graph seperates his final season showing his total value with the Cubs and the Padres, however if you combine those, the he was worth only 1.1 WAR last year. In fact, in every non-awesome season of Edmonds' career, he has been below average. Still, his total WAR was a whopping 67.7, which ranks him 38th in the retrosheet era (1955-present), right around guys like Pujols, Ozzie and Larry Walker.
So we can reasonably say that Edmonds was a great player, but how does he stack up to other hall of famers? To do this, I am going to use the research from BtB author TucsonRoyal. Basically, he took every hall of famer in Rally's database and figured out a baseline for the average and replacement level hall of famers. Big thanks. So here is how Edmonds compares to the rest of the hall:
From a total value standpoint, Jimmy falls a couple wins shy of the average hall of famer, but by no means does that make him not worthy. For a good portion of his career he was significantly better than the average hall of famer, and it was only those few injury plagued years that hurt him. Still, I would vote him in in a heartbeat. How about you?
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for 10 years...
… Jimmy was amazing, and maybe that should be enough. but he was never the best player on his own team, never won an MVP award (or came very close). that hurts him a lot.
i don’t think he will get in, although if he played for the Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees, or Dodgers i think he might (Jim effing Rice?!? Really?!?). but if he doesn’t, the “Ray Lankford Wing of the Hall of Fame” may need to be re-named.
i’d like to see a comparison of Jimmy vs. other center fielders in the Hall. not saying you should do it. just saying i’d like to see it.
by kindred on Jun 4, 2009 8:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I looked at that earlier today
and Jimmy isn’t close to Mantle, Mays, or Yount in terms or total or seasonal WAR. There was one other primary CF but I can’t recall him right now. The available data only goes back to 1955 so there are only ~40 total players included in the above average/replacement numbers and only 4 of them played CF the majority of their games.
by JBrew on Jun 4, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Jimmy’s closest comparables are guys like Beltran and Andruw Jones. BTW thanks for the initial legwork on the average and replacement level HOFers.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 4, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
… Yount didn’t last that long at CF, right?
saying he wasn’t as good as Mays or Mantle isn’t the same as saying he doesn’t belong. are there any other CFers with comparable numbers to Jimmy who aren’t in the Hall? if not, then maybe that helps his case?
or are CFers, as a class, just under-represented in the Hall because their power numbers aren’t the same as corner OF, 1B, and 3B?
by kindred on Jun 5, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yount
BB-ref has him playing 1150 games over 9 seasons in CF (that was after he played 11 seasons at SS). Looking at little closer at the numbers he did have the majority of the high WAR seasons as a SS. Probably not a good comparison.
I wasn’t really trying to say he doesn’t belong, because I do think he belongs, just noting that compared to the other CF that we have data on he doesn’t really compare. If the data included all HOF it make provide a better comparison, but we don’t know.
As for CF under-represented, I’ll have to look around BtB to see if anyone has produced one of those graphs yet. You may be right about them due to the lower power and the public not valuing defense as much. Maybe I should ask for the top 10 or so CF from the community and see how their WAR plots.
by JBrew on Jun 5, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can argue with that photo!
I see your amazing wall climb, and raise you one total reverse layout:
From your pals over at St. Louis Cards version 1.0, Halos Heaven…
by Stirrups on Jun 5, 2009 12:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you bastard
that was probably the sickest catch I’ve ever seen though
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 5, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i raise one more, diving catch that saves the series, and then throws out runner going home in the NLCS
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 5, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I call.
Your’s certainly is a very good hand, but USA Today and Baseball Prospectus push the pile of chips over to me.
And I did not even have to go to my hole card. You see…across the street from Angels Stadium there used to be this restaurant. A top player hangout. Jimmee had a few rumbles there. The most infamous one involved a woman he takes home. She is more than he can handle and he arrives back at the clubhouse with an injured shoulder. Onto the DL he goes. The name of the joint? “The Catch”. Yep. Most incredible “catch” of his career…
by Stirrups on Jun 6, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw...
… that catch was from a game against the Reds, i believe in 2005. i think the ball was hit by LaRue, interestingly enough.
by kindred on Jun 5, 2009 12:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 6, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2004...
… Edmonds’ wikipedia page mentions it. it was July 16, 2004. i was right about LaRue.
he robbed the Reds a bunch of times in ‘04-’05. IIRC, he stole a homer from Dunn, who had a clause in his contract that he got $1mn bonus if he hit 40 HR. Edmonds stole one, and Dunn finished the year with 39.
by kindred on Jun 6, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 6, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't dunn hit 39
or was it 40 (prbably 40, the next season) like 4 years in a row? Always thought that was one of the wierder anomalies in recent b’ball stats..
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 7, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is really cool.
I was actually drafting a similar post on Rolen trying to figure out how much more he would need to play and how good he would need to be to get in. Needless to say Edmonds is basically there while Rolen has a ways to go.
IMHO, Edmonds deserves it although he was never a favorite cardinal of mine.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 5, 2009 1:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you going to post the Rolen one?
I would be really interested in seeing that. Also, a Troy Glaus/Scott Rolen career path graph would be cool.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 5, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Rolen could still make it
just depends how highly the voters value defense, I guess. Another 3 or 4 years of the sort of hitting he’s put up this year and his usual amazing defense (3-4WAR seasons) and he’s at least borderline. If he ever regains his power (doubtful) he could become a real factor.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 5, 2009 5:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
awesome
kudos, rec, etc. nicely done. I think he should be voted in after a few years. hopefully his amazing defense, success in the postseason, and amazing seasons will not be overlooked. he’s definitely one of those on the fence guys for HOF inclusion.
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 5, 2009 3:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My take
Edmonds is my all-time favourite Card but I’m going to say no to this one, my rationale being that there are quite a few guys who don’t belong in the hall who are there, thus, a guy who’s career path nosedives below the average HOFer beyond his 9 best years maybe doesn’t make my “small hall”. Still, if Jim Rice is in there, Edmonds should be. I guess I could go either way…
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 5, 2009 5:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't feel like an idiot, I appreciate your work.
I kind of like the career path plots and breaking out the hitting/fielding numbers.
I kind of curious about seasons 5-8 on his fielding plot, any clue what was going on?
by JBrew on Jun 5, 2009 9:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No it's wierd
Also, those are supposed to be the seasons when a player peaks defensively.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 5, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds is a pretty easy call...
in my mind. He’s was a better player than Kirby Puckett and Richie Ashburn, and he was basically equal to Duke Snider. None of those three ever won MVPs either.
He was the best CFer in baseball for a solid 3-5 year period. He’s on post-season top ten lists in a number of categories. He was flashy. He was loved, he was hated. He won a ring. He was the best hitter on a team that featured a healthy Albert Pujols.
He wouldn’t lower the bar if he got in. That’s the real test.
by guayzimi on Jun 5, 2009 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This post kind'a changed my mind
I was going to say no but Guayzimi is right. Edmunds is definitely better than Ashburn, Snider or Puckett. Ashburn..close, but Edmunds had more power by far. Snider, for a good part of his career was not the best centerfielder on his team. Carl Furillo was, but played right because Snider couldn’t and Furillo had an arm equal to Ankiel and more accurate. He was a hell of a right fielder. Snider struck out a lot and could be pitched to. I always thought he was overated.
by ridgesee on Jun 5, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it baffles me how
a cardinals’ fan is unable to spell the names of cardinal players. especially one like edmonds who will always be remember as a cardinal and was one of the best cardinals during one of the best stretches of cardinal baseball in franchise history
by prophetjohn on Jun 6, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
edmunds.com is a hugely popular car site
maybe ridge was just over there before he made his comment
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 7, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love me some Jimmy but I gotta say no
I gotta say that it’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good. These are supposed to be the absolute best of the best. I know there are tons of guys in already with worse stats but in my opinion, far too many undeserving players are already in. If you have to think about whether or not someone deserves to be in, thumbs down. Maybe I’m a Hall of Fame snob, but that’s my take.
by JShell73 on Jun 5, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
but in terms of defense
he IS one of the best of the best. Why does this always need to be about hitting?
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Jun 5, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This line doesn't make any sense to me:
If you have to think about whether or not someone deserves to be in, thumbs down.
I wouldn’t necessarily call it snobbish, but I would call it irrational and silly. What in the world is wrong with having a little thought or analysis involved in the process? What’s wrong with taking a closer look at a player you’re initially skeptical about? It’s a pretty good bet that in some cases your mindless gut reaction isn’t really going to encompass all aspects of a player’s career.
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 5, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of BBWAA guys didn't have to think at all about Rice.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 8, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can never get into HOF discussions b/c i find the ground is so boggy.
there’s no real clear criteria and lots of guys let in who maybe shouldn’t’ve been, and kept out who maybe shouldn’t’ve been.
i just want to point out that you have 3 of the 4 rec’d fanposts on the board with 27 recs between them.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 5, 2009 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 5, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No
Put him in the Hall of Very Good.
I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck
by bukowski on Jun 5, 2009 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
His plaque will fit nicely next to ken boyers
"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 6, 2009 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many center fielders
should be in the Hall of Fame?
Here are the recent inductees minus deadballers and negro leaguers:
1955 – Dimaggio
1974 – Mantle
1979 – Mays
1980 – Snider
1995 – Ashburn
1998 – Doby
2001 – Puckett
Who is better than Edmonds on this list? I’d say Dimaggio, Mantle, and Mays are all clearly better. Puckett and Ashburn are clearly worse. And Snider and Doby are roughly equivalent, with Doby getting huge points for dealing with all the racial stuff.
How many CFers not in the HOF are better than Edmonds?
Griffey
The rest:
Vernon Wells
Grady Sizemore
Carlos Beltran
Johnny Damon
Fred Lynn
Dale Murphy
Bernie Williams
I would put Edmonds at the top of this list, though there’s still time for Sizemore, and, to a lesser extent, Beltran.
Being one of the best power hitters in baseball over a five year period while simultaneously being the best defender at a premium defensive position is an extremely rare combo in baseball history. Only a handful of guys have done it and it’s a no-brainer that all of them should be in the Hall, imo.
by guayzimi on Jun 6, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
exactly
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 7, 2009 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being one of the best power hitters in baseball over a five year period while simultaneously being the best defender at a premium defensive position is an extremely rare combo in baseball history
I’m gonna start the Utley-for-HOF bandwagon right now, on that basis. That guy (despite still being one of the better-known players in a fairly big market) is STILL super-underrated. I think he may be one of only two or perhaps three players I might consider swapping Pujols for, straight up…
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 7, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm very sympathetic to the argument...
… but I wouldn’t be if JED only had 5 elite seasons. he had more than 5 (probably closer to 10) excellent-to-elite years, and that should be enough. but 5 wouldn’t be.
the more we’ve talked about this, the more i think that either 1. there haven’t been many excellent CFers, or 2. Hall voters severely under-rate them.
by kindred on Jun 7, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of the Hall of Fame
Baseball-Reference has 4 statistics designed to check if a player is “worthy” of HoF status. They have the Black Ink test, the Gray Ink test, the Hall of Fame Career Standards, and the Hall of Fame Monitor.
According to the Black Ink Test, the only players not yet eligible for the Hall of Fame that should go in at this moment are:
Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Ichiro Suzuki, Albert Pujols, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Johan Santana, and Curt Schilling
According to the Gray Ink Test, the only players not yet eligible for the Hall of Fame that should go in at this moment are:
Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, Albert Pujols, Ken Griffey Jr., Vladimir Guerrero, Jeff Bagwell, Manny Ramirez, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz,
According to the Hall of Fame Career Standards Test, the only players not yet eligible for the Hall of Fame that should go in at this moment are:
Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Chipper Jones, Ken Griffey Jr., Gary Sheffield, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Larry Walker, Rafael Palmeiro, Derek Jeter, Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza, Jim Thome, Sammy Sosa, (Jeff Kent, Vladimir Guerrero, and Todd Helton are at the specified mark exactly), Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Mike Mussina, and Tom Glavine
According to the Hall of Fame Monitor, the only players not yet eligible for the Hall of Fame that should go in at this moment are:
This one has more listings that the one above. I’m out of time this morning, so I’ll link to it here Everyone over a 100 score in the rightmost two columns should get in according to this statistic.
by stlfan on Jun 6, 2009 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no-brainer
he belongs in the Hall.
Remember the game ball thing from 2006?
I know you can’t quantify it, but I don’t think the Cards beat the Mets without Jimmy.
And come on, he was the best CF in the majors for years, and had a five or six year run as an elite hitter. Career OPS = .905. Not bad for a CFer, right?…and that includes the down years at the end of his career and his last year in Anaheim. Pair that with the 8 Gold Gloves. He had several circus catches that people will never get tired of watching. (And no, I am not of the school that believes the whole reason you have to dive in the first place is because you suck.)
And IIRC he had a reputation for figuring out when pitchers were tipping their pitches.
by nota bene on Jun 6, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Career .905 OPS at center field plus flat out amazing defense = HOFer
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 7, 2009 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that seems pretty quantifiable.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 7, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK I'm sold
you guys have changed my mind.
Mr Baseball should be in.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 7, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No he doesn't
he’s close….worthy of consideration…but i don’t think he was ever one of the top 5 players in the league…
it really depends on what your philosphy on hall admission is
by tiimbitz4786 on Jun 7, 2009 8:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It is baffling to me...
how a guy who put up a .937 OPS with the Cubs did not generate any interest this offseason. Can we dump Ankiel and Duncan and sign Jimmy? j/k…kinda….not really
As far as the Hall is concerned, injuries and not getting signed this season are really gonna screw him over. He’s short of 2000 hits…nevermind 3000. he’s 18 homers short of 400, nevermind 500. He does have 8 gold gloves, but I think 10 would’ve put him over the top.
So in summary…i think if he had at least 2000 hits, 400 homers, and 10 gold gloves he would be a lock in the eyes of the voters, but falling short of these milestones will cost him. Justifiably or not.
If he gets in, it will not be on the 1st ballot. Good luck to ya, Jimmy!
"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 7, 2009 11:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's probably a better player than ank/dunc right now...
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 8, 2009 6:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your arguement would be better made
without the “wit da” used in the graphs. ugghhh….
Milt Thompson FTW!
by gossard56 on Jun 8, 2009 8:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it strengthens the argument personally
cracka.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 8, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it was a joke buddy
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 8, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like it kinda depends on your criteria
I usually try to use a player’s best 5 years stretch to evaluate his overall talent, then look at how long that peak extended throughout his career.
If you evaluate Jim this way, he’s probably in, since his peak was around 9 years long and he was fairly healthy in his years in St. Louis. He was the best defensive player at his position for a 5-6 year period and was a 7+ WAR player for more than 5 seasons. Unfortunately, injuries probably kept him from hitting 450+ homers, and I feel like he’s going to get stuck in that Andre Dawson territory because of it, even though he was a superior player to Dawson for most of his career.
I’m not a fan of using career numbers, because sticking around way past your prime to accumulate statistics and reach plateaus to further your HOF cause shouldn’t really factor into the discussion. Unfortunately, most of the HOF voters look only at career numbers, don’t give a shit about defense, and could care less about how great a player really was in his prime but more about how he did over his entire career.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 8, 2009 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
has a player other than Koufax
ever been voted in for his prime years only?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 8, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The two that come to mind off the top of my head
would be Jim Rice and Kirby Puckett. Both were very dominant players in their primes but faded quickly, hence their career numbers took a hit in comparison to guys who played into their late 30’s.
Looking further, Joe Medwick would probably be another one.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 9, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dizzy dean’s pretty much the same guy as koufax.
by greenback06 on Jun 10, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kirby Puckett
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.
by garden nome on Jun 8, 2009 7:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
Ok, first of all that was a rob of Jason LaRue as perviously stated, but the better part is that if I’m remebering correctly the mark on the wall below his legs is where he planted his foot on the wall and robed a homer already in the game. It was Dunn the first time if I remeber right, AND…somebody correct me if I’m wrong (and I might just be going crazy about a lefthanded power hiting outfielder) but I wanna say the next game was the famous comback when John Maybury and Edmonds homered late in the game to win. Anybody know if I’m right or not???
Also I hate the idea that a hall of famer has to be the best player on his own team to get in. Yes JEd was not the best player for the Cards for a long time, but it’s not his fault that he played with two other hall of fame caliber players (Big Mac (not saying weither he should be in our not just that he has the numbers) and Pujols).
by Gibson on Jun 9, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pujols is going to be one of the top 10 players ever if he continues at his current pace
so I agree it’s ridiculous to keep someone out of the HOF just because they were an inferior player. By that logic you’d have to select one out of DiMaggio and Gehrig… lame.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 9, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Imagine if only one member of the '27 Yankees could have gotten into the Hall
No Gehrig, Lazzeri, Combs,Hoytt, or Pennock.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 9, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Borderline
unless you want to factor in that many of the players in his era were full of PED’S.
If the voters are going to hold it against the PED guys when they vote, does it not stand to reason you get bonus points if you were never linked to PED’S? I have never heard Edmonds name mentioned in links from anyone, anywhere, that he used PED’S.
So borderline stats should be enough for him.
I think when he officially announces his retirement, the Cardinals ought to have some sort of “Jim Edmonds Day” at the ballpark. He really was a magnificent player and a key cog on some very good teams-he played with flash, sass, and crash, and a whole bunch of fans truly loved him for it.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jun 10, 2009 11:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hey, jill. long time no see.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 10, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's a good point
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 10, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My initial reaction was no
And then I read this thread, with a lot of supportin evidence and comparisons to other HOF’ers.
I disagree that Puckett was worse than he was; that’s a push at best IMHO, but yeah, he deserves it.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
by MilCardFan on Jun 10, 2009 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Disagree on Puckett
Kirby is one of my dad’s all time favorite players, he was a fan favorite who happened to play on some really good teams and an incredibly consistent hitter over his career. But Edmonds is far and away the better player.
Puckett had one season with and OPS+ (league adjusted) above 145, Jimmy had five. Puckett won 6 GG, Jimmy won 8, and was definitely a better defensive centerfielder in his prime than Puckett was. If you compare Jimmy’s pre-Cardinal stats with Puckett, they match up, but post trade, Jimmy was a far better player.
Kirby is one of the few guys who made it into the HOF based on reputation and stellar run in his prime years.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 11, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not gonna say that Ray Lankford was as good as Kirby Puckett
but out of curiosity I compared them on baseballprojection.com’s WAR pages. Ray-ray compares a bit more favorably than I expected.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 11, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
puckett's prime years ran from 1985 to 1995
when his career was cut short by an eye injury. he was showing no signs of slowing down (led the league in rbi’s in ‘94) and finished his career with 11 straight seasons of batting .300 +. He would’ve easily finished his career with 3000+ hits making him a certain hall of famer. throw in the gold gloves and the all star games, the 2 world series rings, and there is no debate at all had he played 5 more years. Let’s not downplay Puckett’s career.
"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 11, 2009 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I think Kirby is a definite HOFer
He was 35 when he had to retire, I am not sure you can assume that he would get 700 more hits after the age of 35.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 11, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think its safe to assume
that kirby could’ve averaged 140 hits for 5 seasons, or 117 for 6, or 100 for 7. Then again, I guess it depends on how long he would’ve wanted to play and how many more years he could’ve stayed at a manageable playing weight. isn’t he pushing like 350 now?
How come nobody has arranged for there to be a crappy reality show – Former Pro-Athlete Fit Club. I can think of a ton of out of shape ex-athletes that would be perfect. Kirby, Tony Gwynn, Warren Sapp, Shawn Kemp, Refrigerator Perry, Charles Barkley, John Daly, etc.
Seriously, how could that be worse than the Snapple Lady, Screech, and that D-Bag from Charles in Charge?
"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 12, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I totally agree with you.
Not sure about the Kirby Puckett stuff, the important part of his career happened when I was very young so I’m a little unfamiliar with him. But the ex-athlete weight loss reality show is actually a completely believable idea. I’m actually surprised it doesn’t exist yet now that I think of it.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 12, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, Kirby can't be on your show....
he passed away in 2006.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was so young.
On the one hand it’s hard not to notice something like that when it happens. On the other hand, it’s kind of easy to forget, because you really don’t naturally expect somebody like him to be dead already.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 12, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh shit...
I had no idea, i missed that
"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"
by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Jun 12, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not downplaying his career
I’m simply saying that if Kirby Puckett is a HOF player, then Jim Edmonds should be a HOF player because Jimmy was a more valuable player in his prime than Puckett was.
I seriously doubt that Kirby would have gotten another 700 hits after age 35 and he certainly wouldn’t have done it playing in CF. He had to sit an awful lot due to injuries his last two years in the big leagues, so unless he moves to DH or LF he probably doesn’t play another 4 years.
You could make the same case for Edmonds in terms of injuries, couldn’t you? All the concussions that he suffered surely effected his late-career performance — if you’re going to extrapolate Puckett getting to 3000 hits, then I think I can extrapolate Jimmy getting to 500 homers had it not been for injuries. All is fair in assumption land…
I agree that Puckett was a great player for his entire career, but if you compare his numbers to the best 12 seasons of other HOF outfielders, he actually falls a little bit short.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 12, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In terms of hall of fame voting, I hope nobody is putting much importance on what could have happened.
That said, Puckett was awesome. And if he’s a HOFer then Edmonds definitely is. That doesn’t do any sort of disservice to Puckett.
If I said out loud that I love how awesome Colby Rasmus is, and somebody says “Justin Upton is better” does that make Rasmus worse?
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 12, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds = HOFer
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 12, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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