2009 Draft Preview #10
by the red baron on Jun 3, 2009 12:22 PM EDT
in News
379 comments
First things first: nice job, Brad.
There's been quite a lot of angst lately, both here and other, ahem, notable outlets, about the presence of Brad Thompson on the Cardinals' roster. I've been very outspoken with my criticism, never hesitating to express my belief that Brad Thompson probably doesn't belong with the big club. So, in the interest of fairness, credit goes to where credit is due. Puppy Kicker did a fine job last night of keeping his team in the game and delivering some solid innings.
Now, does that mean that I've changed my opinion of PK's presence on the roster? No. No it does not. But hey, keeping this positive here. So kudos to you, Monsieur Thompson.
Second, from the Department of Corrections and Retractions, I wrote last week a very quick blurb about a pitcher from Baylor by the name of Craig Fritsch. I also used a video and linked to a site called Texas Leaguers, a mechanics analysis website. Later, I received an email from the site's founder, Trip Somers, who objected to my referring to him as a "Mike Marshall devotee." Mr. Somers is not, in fact, a disciple of Dr. Marshall, but uses similar terminology, and I misinterpreted certain things on the site. I do apologise to Mr. Somers, as I certainly wouldn't want Mike Marshall's name following me around. Texas Leaguers is an outstanding site, and I encourage you all to visit it for some really great video breakdown.
Alright. Now that that's out of the way, let's move on to the last batch of these interminable draft previews of mine, shall we? The draft itself is but six days away, and it's getting down to the nitty gritty now. I'll be doing more draft stuff over at the RFT, and I'm planning on trying to liveblog during the thing, if I'm able. (I'm scheduled to have a wisdom tooth cut out that day, so I'm not sure exactly what sort of shape I'm going to be in, but I'll give it a shot.) But today, I have three more collegiate right-handed pitchers as we prepare to watch the Cardinals choose their future next Tuesday.
Oh, wait! Actually, I do have one other thing. Randy Johnson will be going for his 300th career win tonight on the road in Washington. Such a momentous occasion doesn't come around very often, and I have a question for all of you to answer. There have been 23 players in ML history who have won 300 or more games, 25 who have hit 500 homers, and 27 who have collected 3,000 hits. Of the three, which do you think is the most impressive accomplishment? I'm honestly not sure impressive is quite what I mean, but it's as close as I can get.
Mike Leake, RHP, Arizona State University
DOB: 12th November, 1987
6'0", 180 lbs.
So, what's so great about this guy?
Mike Leake is the poster boy for stats trumping scouts, as his track record is one of the most impressive of any pitcher in the draft, yet scouts are much less sanguine about his future prospects.
If you talk to a stathead, they're going to point out Leake's outstanding K/BB ratio, his high groundball rate, and things with acronyms that I don't entirely understand. If you ask a seamhead, though, they'll tell you he's undersized, his stuff is good but not great, and he gets by largely on excellent command and guts. If there were a pitching version of David Eckstein, he might look a little bit like Mike Leake.
The thing is, though, is that such a portrayal of Leake is hugely overstated. While his repertoire isn't overpowering, he certainly has enough tools to succeed in pro ball, along with all those intangibles that a certain type of baseball fan just loves to trot out.
Leake's fastball cruises along in the 88-92 range, with very nice sinking action. He can crank it up to 94 at times, but the pitch tends to flatten out and stay up when he overthrows it. He's able to work at a variety of velocities, and has excellent command of his heater, moving it to all quadrants of the zone. He pairs the fastball with a very nice curveball that probably grades out a tick above average. Consistency is a plus with his curve, but it isn't a hammer that buckles hitters' knees.
Besides the fastball and curve, Leake also throws a changeup and slider, with the change the more advanced pitch at the moment. It doesn't move a ton, but does feature a nice velocity separation from the fastball, coming in around 80-82 mph. The slider is short and tight, but he tends to hang it occasionally; of all Leake's pitches, the slider is the one that would need the most refining. Personally, looking at his slider, I think any team that drafts Leake would likely have him scrap the slider in favour of a cut fastball, something a little harder, but with more lateral movement.
Leake's athleticism is a plus, as he also plays a competent center field at times for the Sun Devils. He runs well, and should have the body control to maintain his mechanics and reduce his risk of injury.
For the Cardinals, Leake seems like almost too perfect a choice. He plays in a major conference, has an outstanding track record, features a two-seamer, and doesn't necessarily fit the physical mold, meaning he may be somewhat undervalued. He may not be there at 19, but if he is, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear the Cards call his name.
Sam Dyson, RHP, University of South Carolina
DOB: 7th April, 1988
6'2", 195 lbs.
So, what's so great about this guy?
Sam Dyson is a bit of a wild card in this draft, as he has several factors working for him, and several others working just as hard against him. As a draft-eligible sophomore, Dyson could certainly scare off some teams as a tough sign, but he's been steadily moving up draft boards this spring nonetheless.
The interesting thing about Dyson's rise is that it hasn't really been so much that has rocketed him up the rankings, but simple attrition. There have been very, very few top draft prospects this year who have actually performed up to the level they were expected to, and so a guy with a big arm, even if that arm has some definite question marks attached to it, has had plenty of opportunity to make some money.
Let's start with the good, shall we? For one thing, Dyson throws hard. His fastball is in the mid-90s pretty consistently, getting up to 96 on the gun. He also flashes a plus slider that he can get up there about 86, 87 with good tilt. In short, he's a power arm, plain and simple.
Now, the bad. His fastball is of the four-seam variety, and doesn't really have a whole lot of movement. What's worse, when he misses with the heater, Dyson tends to miss up, leading to plenty of extra-base hits. He doesn't really have any third pitch to speak of; the scouting reports mention an average changeup, but I failed to spot one in either start I was able to get my hands on video of. To me, he looks like a two-pitch guy, albeit two pitches that are pretty damned good.
And now, the worse. Dyson had shoulder issues, a labrum problem, that kept him on the bench his freshman year of school. He's supposedly healthy now, but as a Cardinal fan, I've learned to run screaming into the night at the mere mention of the word labrum. I'm not a fan of his mechanics, as they're long in the back.
Bottom line: for me, Dyson is a future reliever. He's got two good pitches, iffy mechanics, and a shoulder injury in his past. Don't get me wrong; I think he could very well end up a very good reliever, but I think I would have to pass on him in the first round.
Eric Arnett, RHP, University of Indiana
DOB: 28th January, 1988
6'5", 225 lbs.
So, what's so great about this guy?
Arnett is a big, physical right-hander, with a body very much in the mold of Adam Ottavino, the Cards' first round pick in 2006. He's another pitcher who, much like Sam Dyson, has moved up the draft board significantly this spring. Unlike Dyson, though, Arnett's helium has had just as much to do with his success and improvement as it has the lackluster performances of many of the other top prospects.
Prior to this season, Arnett sat in the upper 80's with his fastball, touching 92. This year, though, his velocity has taken a step forward, sitting comfortably in the 90-93 range, and it's bumped 96 at times. Better mechanics have been cited as one of the causes of his uptick in stuff, but I can't vouch for the veracity of that claim, as I have no video from years prior to compare. (And, to be honest, the only video I could get on the kid this year is grainy and about 35 seconds long, so I'm not in a position to critique his mechanics much anyway.) The fastball has solid movement on it, with the kind of sinking life that just might attract the Cardinals' attention.
Even with his improved fastball, Arnett's best pitch is probably his slider. It's actually a little slow for a slider, with velocity that ranges in the upper 70s to the low 80s, but it has hard, late break and excellent depth. With that speed and the size of the break, I would almost be tempted to call it a slurve, but that's strictly a matter of semantics.
As for a third pitch, things get a little dicey. Arnett used to throw a standard changeup, but the coaching staff at Indiana taught him a splitter to replace it. The only problem is neither pitch is very good. Most project he'll go back to the straight change in pro ball, but even so, there's a long way to go for it to be a useful third pitch.
As I said, I could only get the barest of video on Arnett, so I don't want to say anything about his mechanics. Better not to say anything at all than to speak without proper information.
Arnett is a favourite of Erik over at FR, I believe,and I generally agree the players that Erik likes. I'm not a huge fan of Arnett, but you could also do worse than to grab a guy with a power arm and a very good breaking ball. He doesn't have a huge number of innings on his arm, though he did throw some high pitch counts late in the college season. He might very well be another guy likely to end up a reliever, but I think he has a much better shot of remaining a starter than a guy like Dyson does. Would he be my choice? Probably not. Will he be the Cardinals' choice? Only time will tell. I will say that I like getting anybody with the name of Arnett on my side.
That's the last of it, folks. I haven't run out of players, but I have run out of time. Unfortunately, I somehow get the feeling that the Cardinals are still going to take a player I didn't profile, and it's going to piss me off. Oh well.
As I said, I'll have more draft stuff leading up to next Tuesday over at the Rundown, so check it out over there. Take care, and bask in the glory of a temporary tie for first.
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talk about burying the lede, here, RB. as soon as i read:
Leake’s fastball cruises along in the 88-92 range, with very nice sinking action.
i had this vision of dave duncan seizing mo by the lapels and shaking him with a frantic look on his face and a more menacing gleam in his eye than i usually associate with dave and shouting “get me leake!”
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Leake won't drop to the Cardinals
TRADE FOR DEROSA!!!
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs," Carpenter said. "That is a fact."
by Cuttah on Jun 3, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably not -- but he's not out of the question.
odds are we just miss him and he goes #12, #14, something. the sporting news put him at 16. It’s not like i went on at length about getting strasburg, ackley, crowe, gibson, somebody who is an obvious top 10. a couple of surprise picks before us, and he could be there.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yah...I've been following Seiler's Mock Drafts
He’s had Leake bouncing around quite a bit in the mid to late first round and he’s at #13 in his latest mock draft. I would be happy if he fell to us, but I think Mike Minor might be an even better fit for the Cardinals, and he will most certainly still be on the board when we pick.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I’d be pleased if we drafted Minor and Morris with our first two picks.
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jun 3, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
Although if we get Minor, I’d rather they would take a Jake Barrett in the second round if he’s there, just for the extreme upside potential.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
erik on FR says leake also used to play 2b.
he’s got GRIT, bitches!
it’s like he was made to please tony and dave.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
wait, this confuses me.
PJ Walters with a similar FB, has constantly been criticized in our system as not having the stuff to make it in the bigs. Why would a similar pitcher be considered a 1st round pick?
by DriverZn on Jun 3, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Walters doesn't throw as hard
His fastball also doesn’t have as much sink. He’s not going to get the ground balls that Leake does. Leake also has better breaking pitches, which isn’t difficult to fathom, because Walters doesn’t have any unless he’s throwing to Alfonso Soriano, who’d never met a slider he wouldn’t wave at. Walters does have a fantastic changeup, he just doesn’t throw hard enough to get his fastball by hitters early in the count so he can use it as his out pitch.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when walters was being criticized
his fastball was scouted at “mid-80s”, which is scout code for “not a fastball.” Supposedly he began throwing harder in the last year or two.
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for 300 wins
I know pitching wins are a useless stat, but in order to have 300 career wins, especially in this day and age of pitch counts and days of rest, you have to be durable and, well, damn good. Obviously, on their own, pitching wins don’t mean anything because a pitcher could pitch 5 innings, give up 20 runs, and still get a comfortable win after his team puts up 100 in the first inning. However, pitching like that will not, in all realistic scenarios, get a pitcher to 300 wins.
Basically, what I’m saying is, any pitcher with 300 wins is an excellent pitcher, and the Unit should be commended.
I've got one foot on the platform, the other foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans, to wear that ball and chain
by jd is legend on Jun 3, 2009 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's the issue I have with 300 wins
It’s almost entirely team dependent. You have to play on good teams at least 2/3 of your career to even SNIFF 300 wins.
Prime comparison? Bert Blyleven and Don Sutton.
Sutton played on good Dodger teams for most of his career and ended up with 324 wins. Blyleven pitched on a ton of bad teams in Minnesota, Texas, and Clevelan for most of his career. If you swap the 70’s decade between pitchers, Blyleven has 300 wins and Don Sutton probably ends up with around 280 or so. Look at the 300 game winners in the last decade: Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Randy Johnson. All played for above average to great teams their entire careers. If Mike Mussina had pitched his entire career with the Yankees or Braves, he’d probably be a 300 game winner as well.
Home runs and hits you earn on your own merit. You can play your entire career for the San Diego Padres or Milwaukee Brewers, play in 3 playoff series, and get 3000 hits. You can play for Twins, Cubs, or Senators and hit 500 homers without ever sniffing the postseason so much as once. I just don’t think you can say that about a 300 game winner.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what abou "hitters" and "pitchers" parks?
What happens if you played all or most of your career in Colorado compared to someone that played all or most of his career in San Diego? Wouldn’t that artificially raise or lower the amount of home runs and/or hits?
by saladdays on Jun 3, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not nearly as much
as inflated wins playing for good teams vs. bad teams. You’re still pretty much going to get there on your merit in terms of hits and homers.
For example, Adrian Gonzalez hit more homers than did every hitter who played for Colorado last year, and he played at PetCo vs. Coors. In 2007, only Holliday’s career high HR total bested Gonzalez’s 30 homers. Adam Dunn would still hit 40 bombs a year playing at PetCo because he simply crushes the ball.
The difference? Those guys who hit the homers that just barely clear the wall aren’t hitting many homers at PetCo, but they aren’t hitting many at Coors either, they’ll just hit a lot more doubles in that huge outfield. Those guys also aren’t hitting 500 dingers in a career either. Look at the list of players with 500 homers — all of those guys were tape measure shot hitters, not dinky fly-ball hitters in small ballparks.
In terms of hits, you could make the case that Wade Boggs took advantage of the Green Monster more than a lot of players. Dude also downed 60 beers on a cross country road trip, so you could make the case that he was also at a significant disadvantage by playing in Boston where they drink a lot. But I don’t see a single guy on the 3000 hit list wouldn’t have gotten there if they had played in a pitcher’s park their whole career. Hell, Biggio played a lot of his career in the Astrodome, and that was the best pitchers haven in baseball for years. You could make a case that Bagwell would have hit 500 homers had he not played in the Astrodome for so many seasons, but he also played at Juicebox, and had a lot of help there with the small pennant porch in left.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a side note
I like that you bring up things like taking advantage of a home park. Players are smart to do things like that, and surely smart-ness has something to do with overall baseball value. It’s something I don’t think about as often as I maybe should.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's so true
Griffey Jr. took advantage of the Kingdome like no other player.
Ruth, Gehrig, Jackson, Mantle, Maris and every left handed power hitter for the Yankees for the last 80 years has enjoyed a nice advantage at home, and probably even more so now from the look of it. That sound you hear is Jason Giambi kicking his cat…
Dustin Pedroia would not be the same player were it not for the Monster — he’s an all-pull fly ball hitter. You take him out of Boston, his stats go down A TON. Just look at the number of doubles from home to away — 20 more in fewer games? Why do you think he signed such a club friendly deal to stay there? He’s not stupid!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh heh
See, this is the cool kind of thinking I’m talking about. And you could fall on either side of the argument vis a vis the player’s “value” or whatever. Some would say “Pedroia’s nothing without that home park and therefore sucks.” And yet, he signed that deal as you say. And every one of those doubles off the Green Monster helps his team to win.
(Still kinda can’t believe he was the MVP but whatever. If I were Brian Roberts or Chase Utley, I would be kinda pissed off. They will never win MVP awards.)
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tape measure shot 500 HR hitters
Valid point. Mel Ott is the only exception I can think of.
by random on Jun 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
He was the one I came up with too and he would be a guy who really took advantage of playing at the Polo Grounds as 3/5 of his homers came there.
Speaking of the Polo Grounds, if Brooklyn ever gets a team, I’d rather see them recreate the Polo Grounds rather than Ebbetts Field. Just check the picture on the link above, how cool is it that the second deck hangs over the first and crosses the foul line?!?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure what I think about it
other than I never knew what the Polo Grounds actually looked like and it’s really weird looking. Was the foul territory as massive as it looks in those pictures?
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
That’s why it doesn’t have an extreme hitters or pitchers split — the huge alleys and the immense foul ground keep things even.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bullpens in fair territory in left-center and right-center.
That sounds awesome! Which ball is live? The one the warming up pitcher is throwing or the one that was actually hit? Both are in fair territory!
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Jun 3, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love the polo grounds
one of my favorite parts about MVP 2005 for the Gamecube was that I could play all my exhibition games there. If only someone would add the Baker Bowl as a secret park, I could Chuck Klein my way to the Hall of Fame.
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we watched a different Henry Aaron then
I’m sure he hit ‘some’ bombs, but despite the nickname “Hammerin,’” Aaron was more of a flick hitter. He did it with tremendous hand-to-eye and GREAT wrists. For a power hitter, he had a fairly compact swing.
by the Tewk on Jun 3, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't necessarily thinking it would be as much
but it is something to at least think about.
by saladdays on Jun 3, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy
Johnson played for the Expos for a season and some pretty damn lousy Mariners clubs. In fact, his last three seasons with the Mariners were the only seasons they were good. A little over half his seasons with the D-Backs they were good, and the other half not so good. This year, he’s playing for the Giants, a .500 team.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that Randy Johnson has played on some shitty teams for a large chunk of his career and he’s still going to win 300 games.
Yes, wins are team-dependent. But if you don’t pitch well, there’s a good chance you don’t get the win.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 3, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if randy was on better teams throughout his career
he would’ve been there two yrs ago
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jun 3, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Randy Johnson is, like, one of the top ten pitchers ever...
And Clemens, Glavine & Maddux are all clear HOFers.
I have no idea what point I’m making here, or if indeed I am making one. I’ll go back into my box now.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 3, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have box in your mom's basement?
Lucky!
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jun 3, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's probably just an XBox.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're kidding right?
Does Randy Johnson win 17 games in 2006 playing for any other team BUT the Yankees? His years in Arizona were the most dominant years of his career, and their ballclub was still in the wild card hunt every single year.
He spent three full seasons in Seattle in which they weren’t very good, 1990-1992. Beginning in 1993, they had some of the best offenses in the league for the rest of his tenure there. They had no other pitchers behind him for the most part, but their offense was top 5 in the league every single year. He’s also had a number of years where he’s been injured when he was on a pretty good team.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
we’re looking at different numbers.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 3, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously
If you don’t pitch well, you’re not getting to 300 wins. What I’m saying is that you can pitch like a HOF pitcher for a lot of years on shitty ballclubs and not get to 300 wins either. You can’t say that about home runs and base hits, because they aren’t dependent on your team to achieve them. You can have 3000 hits with a bunch of AAA players playing around you your whole career. Same with 500 homers. But not with 300 wins.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The argument is basically that...
Wins are a lot more like say, RBI than hits and HR are. Things like park effects and the like go into hits, homers, and wins, but wins are way more effected by your team than the other two.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably close to the same
He made a lot of starts and pitched deep into games (avg 6.2 innings/start), and wasn’t that bad (4.27 FIP).
In fact, the Yankees defense was so bad that year that you could make the argument that he’d have won more games pitching for some other team- his ERA-FIP was almost 3/4 of a run (.73), which is pretty bad. Put him on the 2006 blue jays or tigers and I bet he wins 20 games.
Pitching wins are such an arbitrary stat that they aren’t really a measure of a guy’s talent, but I think they work better over a career than over a season since a lot of the “luck” gets filtered out. Imo 300 wins is the most impressive feat.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm way late getting into the game...
but I picked the wins as well. I’m just more impressed by the names on that list than by those on the other two.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 3, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
part of those great teams was pitching
The thing 300 wins has going for it is that there are less 300 win pitchers tainted with PED accusations. Right now it Clemens vs. Big Mac, Bonds, Sosa, ect
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for 3,000 hits for alot of those same reasons
10 years ago i might have said 500 home runs, but steriods have tainted my thought of “power stats”. I know that some of those 500 homer guys are also in the 3000 hits club as well, but the true testiment to 3000 hits is the longevity it takes to get there. Good team or bad team 3000 hits can and has happened.
As far as the ballpark goes, I don’t buy that very much either… you still only play half your games there and if you look at the list of guys with 3000 hits I don’t think anyone would say “He only got there because of the yard he played in”
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jun 3, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And with the
schedule and the rotation, it’s not a given that a pitcher pitches half his games at home.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 3, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's too dependent on other players
You need a good bullpen to preserve wins and a good offense to get you garbage wins and prevent those pesky 1-0 “”http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN200905160.shtml" >losses." For goodness sake, a reliever can be dubbed the “winner” for pitching the last out of an inning and his team taking the lead during their following half-inning at the plate. “Wins” and “Losses” a completely arbitrary stat. It’s less indicative of a player’s individual skill than either 3,000 hits (which I chose) or 500 homers.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My broken link
I linked to the Game Log of Wainwright’s 1-0 “loss” to the Brewers.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who needs a link when a link can be broken?
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jun 3, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
What’s HTML got to do, got to do with it?
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree about
the wins but the hits we have found to be a little overrated, just like batting average. A guy who hits 300 and gets on base at a 315 clip may get a lot of hits, but unless his SLG is really high, probably isn’t that valuable of a player.
by eglasier on Jun 3, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree about the valuability of the player
I would agree that the 500 HR guys are probably more valuable than the 3000 hit club members, just looking at the lists. Sure, PED’s have tainted them, but so did the juiced ball of the ’30’s and juiced pitchers in the last 15 years and the smaller ballparks back then and now compared to the ballparks in the 70’s and 80’s.
The question was what do I value more, and I value a guy who can hit 500 homers more than I value a guy who has the talent to get 3000 hits. Luckily, I can value Hank Aaron by both and hopefully Albert Pujols as well.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
was Aaron a beneficiary of a freindly home park too?
(Not discounting what he did, just playing by the fire with gasoline)
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both parks he played in
were slight hitters parks, but I don’t think either had great advantages to be taken from them, as both were pretty standard parks with standard dimensions. Fulton County in Atlanta became more of hitters park later on, but that was after Hank was long retired.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm convinced that Davey Johnson was on PEDs in 1973
43 HRs? when 18 was his previous career high? he hit more than Hank that year
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nolan Ryan didn't play on
a lot of good teams and he got to 324 wins by just being unhittable.
by Toddius on Jun 3, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
- never being hurt.
- pitching until he was 45.
- striking out twice as many hitters as the two other 300 game winners.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But don't those
things mean anything?
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 4, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had to go with 500 home runs
since less people have done that than the other feats
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How come
of all the comments, most people went for 500 HR – yet it’s MILES behind the other two on the votes? Wierd…
I went for 500 too.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 3, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's a very good question
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me it'
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dammit!
For me it’s a matter of math. 50 homeruns per year for 10 years, and you’re in the 500 homerun club. Now, I will admit that 50 homers is a TON, but so is 20 wins. You would have to win 20 games for 15 years in a row to join the 300 win club.
As for the hits, how about 200 hits every year for 15 years?
I just think you have to be a GREAT pitcher (and have some luck too) for a lot longer than you have to be a GREAT hitter in order to accomplish the feats in question.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly
breaking it down that way makes all of them REALLY impressive.
I was trying to think what would be more exciting for me, Pujols 500th HR or 3,000 hit and what I came up with was that if he ends up winning 300 games that would definitely blow the other two away. Put him in the rotation!!
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jun 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knowing Pujols,
he will accomplish both his 500th homer and 3000th hit with the same swing of the bat.
He will then lay the bat down, get TJ surgery on that bad elbow and proceed to win 30 games a year for the next decade.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's just Albert.
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Jun 3, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
As long as we’re talking math, I would venture to say that the number of 20 win seasons in the big leagues is exponentially higher than the number of 50 homer seasons. For an apt comparison you would need to go with 40 homer seasons I think. That’s a little more fair to the hitters in question.
Also, 200 hits a year for 15 years seems like a lot, until you look at the hitters on the list of 3000 hit guys. Most of them averaged 200 hits a year for longer than 15 years and had some ridiculous hit years (240+ hits) in between. I would venture to say that the number of guys who averaged 200 hits a year for 15 years is greater than the guys who averaged 40 homers a year for 15 years. In fact, I’m not sure anyone outside of Ruth has ever averaged over 40 homers a season for 15+ seasons. Maybe Aaron, but not to many others.
They are all impressive, I just think that in terms of value, the 500 homer guys are the most valuable because all of them are more valuable than the guys with fewer than 500 for the most part. I don’t think that you can say that about 300 win pitchers, because if you look at historical WAR, there’s some awfully good pitchers who didn’t get to 300 wins for one reason or another.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but 40 homers per year for 15 years
equals 600 home runs.
And Musuial didn’t have 500 homers, but Mike Schmidt did. Which one was the better hitter?
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know that vote was on which one
makes u a better hitter. I thought it was a vote to see which one was more valuabe. Just sayin’
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jun 3, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, that was my point
Although I think Musial is one of the top 5 hitters in all of baseball history, though I obviously have rose colored glasses on that one. Had he not missed the ’45 season due to WWII he would be on both lists I think.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It says which one do YOU value most.
Not which one makes the player the most valuable. I voted 300 wins since I think it is a much harder thing to accomplish, because of the fact that you need have longevity, good teams behind you, and be a good quality pitcher for that long time. That isn’t an easy thing to do and isn’t something you can control all on your own.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Jun 3, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence, "For the most part"
Sure, you’re going to have exceptions to every blanket statement like that one. But look at some of the other guys on the 3000 hit list.
You’re certainly not going to argue that Yount, Gwynn, Biggio, Carew, and Boggs are more valuable than Bonds, Ruth, Mantle, Killebrew and Frank Robinson are you?
Actually this would be a fun WAR analysis, but I’d bet that via career WAR, and removing the players on both lists, that the 500 HR guys are worth more offensively than the 3000 hit group. Anyone want a FanPost idea for BtB? vivaelpujols, I KNOW you’re out there…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
would like to see that myself
but not willing to do the work. GO VEP
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jun 3, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have never posted negatively
on Brad Thompson and if given a full opportunity I’ve always thought he could possibly become a serviceable 4th or 5th starter. In fact going forward, he might be better option than Wellemyer.
If his options are up, I can see why the Cards are reluctant to send him down. They got away with it one time but I don’t think the can get away with it again.
Every time the Cards have sent him down in the past, he has won in AAA, proving to me he is better than a AAA pitcher.
I hope last night was a good “showcase” start and the Cardinals can get something in return for him. He is just good enough that you wouldn’t want to just give him away. In fact, he could come back to hurt you….anybody notice that Jason Marquis has won 7 games for Colorado.
by ridgesee on Jun 3, 2009 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Contract year!
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jun 3, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed
(Marquis and his seven wins, I mean) Jason is also rocking some wicked facial hair.
by cardsgirl95 on Jun 3, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just
pissed in every Cub fan’s Cheerios.
Jim Hendry, your 2008 GM of the Year!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like your thought process
You undoubtedly have to be very good for a very long time to get to 300.
But I voted for 500 HR.
Of the 25 guys who have hit 500 bombs, 10 achieved #500 post 1999 (my 100% cherry-picked, arbitrarily selected HR inflation year). So from whenever to 1999, only 15 guys managed the feat, while 20 guys eclipsed 300 wins in that time. It would seem that 500 HR was maybe a little harder than 300 W for much of baseballs history – with the deadball era and guys throwing tons of innings (10 guys in the 300W club by 1920).
The more I think about it though, judging a player accomplishing the feat today should probably be judged a little differently. It’s a lot harder to get 300 wins against roided up super sluggers than in the past, and a lot easier to get to 500 HR given said PEDs or juiced baseballs or parks or diluted pitching or whatever.
In conclusion, I didn’t even look at 3,000 hits. Craig Biggio?
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and I suck at replying to threads. No VEB HOF for me.
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My problem with the PED Era hitting stat argument
Pitchers used PEDs, too. Hitters were batting against ‘roided and HGH’d up super pitchers, too. I’d bet money that just as many pitchers were using PEDs as hitters. I’m not saying that this cancels out and makes the stats legitimate, but, I think it alters the analysis.
As for the arbitrary choice of 1999, why not look at the 500 club members’ rookie seasons? Presumably, the PED era started in the late 1980s on Tony La Russa’s Oakland A’s clubs for which Dave McKay was the weight-lifting coach. Most of those 20 guys who reached 500 homers after 1999 probably started playing in the mid- to late-1980s, I would guess.
Craig Biggio was a great player and underrated. Look at his run from 1993 through the early 2000s. For a second baseman, that is superb. His career OPS was .796. Sure, he’s no Joe Morgan, but he was still a great second baseman. He had 291 career HRs.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biggio was the precise reason i didn't vote for 3000 hits
although, as you say, he was pretty good. But only pretty good. It’s hard to find a guy who broke 500 HR who wasn’t excellent – I think they’re all in the HOF (except for the PED-tainted guys), and rightfully so. I’m not sure Biggio quite deserves it, though he’ll probably get there.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 3, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biggio's problem is being a team player
His move from second to left to accomodate Jeff Kent’s signing will keep him out of the Hall, in my opinion. I see your Biggio and raise you Rafael Palmeiro. (Of course, this works against 3,000 hits because Rafa had 3,020 to accompany his 569 (!) homers.)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be a crime
to keep Bigio out of the Hall. 3,000 hits gets you in. No matter what. IMHO
by nybirdfan on Jun 3, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Biggio moved to center field.
And dont forget his move from a really good defensive catcher to 2b too.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Palmeiro
PED’s and lying to Congress aside, he was an elite player for a lot of years, far more than Don Mattingly and nearly as good at his peak (by OPS+), and people clamor for Mattingly all the damn time as such a great player.
Obviously Biggio’s GRIT factor is higher and he never did any ads for Viagra…..
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biggio Top 5 2B all-time
According to Bill James (New Historical Abstract), Craig Biggio was in the top 5 all-time at second base. He hit for average, power, reached base, stole bases, didn’t GIDP, played solid-to-good defense – in his article, James compared Biggio favorably to Ken Griffey Jr, saying that he was the better player in the 90’s. He also brought him up in his Jim Rice article, noting the difference in HBP and GIDP in Rice’s & Biggio’s standout seasons, saying that the gap was worth over a hundred points in batting average.
The fact that he shifted to the outfield in his waning years to accomodate Houston’s roster machinations has little to no effect on his HOF legacy. There are many great players that move down the defensive spectrum late in their careers; Craig’s move was not really exceptional (that he was sent to CF was odd, but he was simply the best available option).
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Jun 3, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. Pitchers juiced.
It just isn’t as obvious, partially because the counting stat of homeruns is so compelling. It’s far easier to say “this guy did PED’s look at his spike in homers” than it is to accuse a pitcher based on wins. Doesn’t necessarily mean either player is more likely to have ‘roided up than the other. It’s all so damn complex, somebody please make it simpler so we can settle these argument already!
Anyway. A guy I know from college pretty much convinced me a while ago that Biggio will be a HOFer. I think he will be voted in. Also, I am starting to come around to him being a decent choice, if definitely not a slam dunk one. For one, I think the current trend among the SABR community to emphasize player peaks goes a little far in that it is still a very impressive, perhaps even great thing, for a player to be good or very good for an extraordinary long amount of time, in my opinion—I think guys like Biggio might be getting neglected. How many players stayed that good for that long, and at least useful near the end? The guy, according to Sean Smith’s database, has 65.6 WAR for his career. This is far above the “replacement level HOF WAR of 53.3, and not too far behind the median of 70.5, for hitters. See ”http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/5/19/878150/war-graphs-average-and-replacement" target="new">this Btb post.
Anyway, didn’t mean to threadjack or anything. I like Biggio more than I used to.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn you SBN links.
Here’s the BtB article detailing Hall of Fame WAR medians and replacement levels.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point
last year I did a bit of digging and found a list of all major and minor leaguers that had been suspended because of PEDs. Over 60% of them are pitchers. If this sample is at all indicative of the larger population, and I don’t know why it wouldn’t be, more pitchers than hitters got some help.
by birdo rojo on Jun 3, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had no idea
That is a very interesting point.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice job, birdo rojo
I almost commented that more pitchers had been caught than hitters, but couldn’t (after a quick Google search) find any hard facts to back that up.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If
you added together the WPA , or whichever number you guys like the best, of the hitters and the pitchers caught, which would be higher. maybe OPS+ vs. ERA+ ? I really have no idea which metric to use, but the point I’m trying to get accross is that even though the quantity of pitchers caught is higher, were the hitters caught able to produce better numbers?
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Define "caught"
Do we include Roger Clemens? Do we include Sammy Sosa? Do we include Mark McGwire? Do we include Mike Piazza? Part of the problem with the era is the unknowable. If we take the list of players who have been caught and suspended by MLB, in my mind, it is primarily fringe players. I would therefore guess that Manny and A-ROD would tip the scales dramatically into the hitters’ column.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
caught without actual legalities
A-Rod + Manny > Clemens?
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what you're saying
is that cragi biggio will some day annouce sunday night baseball on ESPN and pale in comparison to Joe Morgan?
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PED Era
I don’t think PED’s help(ed) pitchers as much as they help(ed) hitters
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because?
seems like improved recovery times and stamina would be great things to have as a pitcher
by FunkeeC on Jun 3, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if I have scientific evidence
but after playing the game (obviously not at the same level) for 17-18 years, I guess I just feel that way. recovery time would probably be the biggest aide, but starters get 4 days to recover. Hitters hit about every day, so the shorter muscle recovery time for them, imo, would be more beneficial. Even with steroids I don’t know if I could have thrown 80 MPH (I topped out at 70), but I probably could have hit the ball farther. But like I said, I just think this, I don’t know this.
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Relievers?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably a good point
like I said, I have no evidence, on arbitrary feelings
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, A lot of steroid users use them in the offseason not the regular season
Bulk up on strength in the off season to get you through the season
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goose Gossage said that
amphetamines were rampant in baseball throughout the 70’s. Especially with relief pitchers.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitchers
They abuse their arms far more than position player. Pitching is the most physically taxing motion in the game. They throw 90 to 125 pitches every start. How many swings does a batter take? How many plays in the field? The only person who has a case for being in as trying a physical position is catcher.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But they also only throw in a game every five days, and only twice between starts off a mound. How many throws and swings to position players make in 5 games? I’d say it’s about even in terms of stress on the body.
If not, then explain why we consistently see pitchers throw well into their early 40’s while we very rarely see hitters do this?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the question is whether pitchers using PED's reduced the home run rate more than Hitters' use of PEDs increased it.
Has anyone done any analysis on whether pitchers’ use of PEDs necessarily decreases the home run rate? It’s not intuitively obvious that it does.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jun 3, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why do you asume that improved recovery times and stamina would necessarily be the effect of PEDs that would have the most effect on the the home run rate?
It could be fast-twitch muscle development (literally hitting the ball harder and farther), improved hand-eye coordination, or a host of other things.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Jun 3, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Koch and Roger Clemens
I rest my case…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i no rite it's teh veb hall of faem not hall very gud
In seriousness though, I agree with a lot of your points. I first approached it as saying, “the fewest amount of people have attained 300 hits” and then I thought, “how much bigger is the pool of people trying to reach the hitting milestones rather than the pitching ones?” I honestly don’t know
Then there are the issues of which era we’re talking about, with different balls, different sized parks, different managing conventions, different medical science and statistics available, etc. etc. etc. I simply won’t bother trying to answer the question along “baseball history” lines.
That said, I have to answer in terms of what impresses me most in the current era we’re in. I think I currently lean toward 500 homers. First, a home-run is the most pure of those stats. It is the best form of hit, and a win is too tainted by chance and luck; also, compared to hits in general, the subset of homers is more dependent on actual skill and true outcome type stuff. And so one, I don’t want this post to get too long. It’s a very difficult thing for me to try to wrap my head around and come up with a definite answer.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
300 hits actually isn't that many
I think wainwright will do that
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jun 3, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ack!
You and your sense-making!
I of course meant 300 wins there. 300 wins has the smallest raw amount of people, but I assume the pool of people who have tried and failed to attain both 3000 hits and 500 homers to be significantly larger.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe a better question...
Instead of 300 wins, 2500Ks?
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oooh.
I have to go with the Ks on that one.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 3, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't remember where I saw it today (might have been on VEB)
But apparently Lincecum just passed 500 K’s. Damn!
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What!?
Already?
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 3, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I just checked b-ref to make sure
506 strikeouts for his career, in 445 innings.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greinke
is at 596 already
gonna need more franklins to get through this one.
by hoofhearted-pujols on Jun 3, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that's just this season...
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I posted about
Timmy’s feat at the end of last night’s game thread. Maybe that’s where you saw it.
by cardsgirl95 on Jun 3, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, I think you're right
I was checking out that thread earlier today.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you can be a good pitcher without racking up an incredible number of K's
I've got one foot on the platform, the other foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans, to wear that ball and chain
by jd is legend on Jun 3, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can be a good pitcher
without winning 300 games too — Bob Gibson comes to mind as does Fergie Jenkins. Dude…even TOM GLAVINE has 2500 K’s and I wouldn’t consider him a strikeout pitcher.
If you’re comparing to 500 HR’s or 3000 Hits though, it’s a much better stat to use as a comparison.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
29 guys in that group
But it includes Frank Tanana, Mickey Lolich, and Chuck Finley.
I’d raise it to 3000 K’s. Pretty elite group of pitchers there.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can come up with hitters who juiced. Heck, you can see it
in career stat lines.
But pitchers? I see the whole PED issue but if your elbow is already at max torque and your arm seems to either throw at 90 mph or not (from high school on up) it’s very difficult for me to see how PEDs have jacked up pitching stats.
by sdrone on Jun 3, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can get stronger,
which means your legs get stronger. Much of a pitcher’s power is generated from his lower body and overall trunk strength versus his elbow.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could see it benefit relievers
Instead when a reliever normally would get tired after pitching multiple days in a row he would have more staying power
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Lincecum would like a word with you
Nearly all of his power is generated in his lower half, which you could easily strengthen with steroids. Also, HGH would help pitchers recover faster between starts and throw more innings in games.
Why would Clemens have taken steroids if it didn’t help him?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
'cause clemens likes being big
I think, like Bonds, Clemens would have been good without ’em.
Anyway, my point is while we can easily point to an example of a hitter that was great (even if only for a year) due to PEDs, we haven’t found a pitcher yet.
I know last year we discussed 1 guy. Maybe on the Diamondbacks? Who got about a 3mph increase in his fastball.
I’m not arguing that pitchers took PEDs. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think it had the same effect on the game as hitters on PEDs had.
But keep in mind this is just my opinion.
by sdrone on Jun 3, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard not to like Brad
I have no illusions of what he is. He’s clearly a fringe guy. He’s the take one for the team guy that seems to be willing to do whatever without much of a fuss. He’s started on 2 days rest. He’s also sat idle for 2 weeks. He’s bounced between spot starts and relief. He’s bounced between STL and Memphis.
My impression is that the guy just competes and doesn’t let his ever changing role bother him. To contrast, imagine we tried to something like this with Marquis. There are plenty of guys out there that are delusional about their roles, their place in the game. It’s nice to see someone who (apparently) knows what they are and makes the most of it.
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 3, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 3, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well said
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Despite the fact that he's bad at baseball
I’ve always quite liked thompson and felt that (despite all logical evidence to the contrary) he’s probably worth a bit more than he really us. Like you say, he’s clearly a totally fungible fringe guy, but there ya go.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 3, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I illogically bought a Taguchi jersey
Well, it was a gift and when I couldn’t decide which name I wanted on the back I just said, “why not Taguchi, he’s fun”. He was also the first Japanese player on the Cardinals unless I’m mistaken? So he had history going for him too.
So anyway, I try to be as objective and SABR-friendly as I can about evaluating things in baseball, but I also have absolutely no problem with just liking players because they’re likable. It’s the best of both worlds!
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have Puppy Kicker on the back of my Jersey
I had to bring it to Johhny Mac’s to do it
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i want one
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With a great jersey comes large pressure
I take a lot heat at ball games when I wear it. So few understand it’s true meaning. Been threatened a few too many times for my taste. Even when I try to explain what it means. But it is all worth it when someone gives you the double hand gun’s and wink of admiration.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope PETA doesn't send a hit squad after you.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but what if the hit squad
is the moron hotties that pose nude for the ads?
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as long as she doesn't talk, that's fine
and i won’t have that problem Flim. i’m not allowed to go to the games anyway.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not allowed to go the games!?
Grounded?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
worse, cursed
i only witness losses & career threatening injuries
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we send you to a Cubs-Brewers game?
by ubeddie on Jun 3, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent plan
Should VEB start a collection to buy tickets for gdm426 to all opponents’ games?
by cardsgirl95 on Jun 3, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you all buy the tickets & food,
and i’ll move to Milwaukee
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will buy you a Braun jersey!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 3, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If gdm426 wore a Braun jersey
to a Brew Crew game in Milwaukee, Douchy would probably be done for.
by cardsgirl95 on Jun 3, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
looks like i'm going to have to learn to love
brats. good thing i already love cheese & bacon.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not of People Eating Tasting Animals
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Flim,
I thought they were tasty animals.
by cardsgirl95 on Jun 3, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
punctuation is crucial.
People-eating & -tasting animals.
like tigers, polar bears, etc.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget the goonch
the winner of the prestigious “carniverous man-eating fish most likely to star in a Dr Seuss book” award.
http://www.otterreserves.com/goonch.htm
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets, not insult the man Felonius
Brad Thompson is in the major leagues. He is better at baseball than 99.99% of everyone out there. AND, not only is he in the majors, but he has also stuck around for quite a while and given us lots of fair, competitive, and cheap innings.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 3, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I failed.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 3, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't even know what you failed at either
which makes it all the more funny
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it has come full circle
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
roller coaster ride of a season
right when you think we are going to go into another slump or something, Brad Freakin Thompson comes along and pitches well. And SuperNoha ingnites the offense… who woulda thunk it
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What was Taveras doing on that fly ball?
I was excited for the SAC fly, but then Taveras made one of the worst plays on a can o’ corn I’ve ever seen. Sure, he had to run back, but that ball hung up in the St. Louis air for-ev-er.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that guy gonna end up earming more than a cup of coffee
in the majors?
People here have said he’s pretty mediocre defensively, right?
by sdrone on Jun 3, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's not get too excited
about a double that was the result of one of the worst defensive plays in recent memory. Seriously, did Taveras just not see that ball or something?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
still would have scored a run
which is all he needed to do at the time and then schumaker’s single would have scored the other run
by huts04 on Jun 3, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
and Stav’s been pretty good the last couple of weeks and really has helped the team. However, I wouldn’t anticipate him keeping this up at the plate and he’s a disaster in the outfield.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joker picture.....
Somebody posted a pic of the Joker yesterday or Monday (I think), that had a funny little caption about “not being serious”, or something like that. I can’t find it today, and need it to use elsewhere. Anybody point me to it?
Gracias.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 3, 2009 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen the film?
Why so serious?
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh.....yea, I've seen it.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 3, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You see
I took it as “which one of these three things is the hardest to achieve/most impressive, historically”. I reckon a lot of folks have ignored the 500 HR thing (what I voted for) because of the steroid era, which to some extent is fair enough, but really, nearly every single player who’s broken 500 HR with the exception of a few rather questionable ones are absolute inner-circle HOFers, regardless whether they did PEDs or not.
I suppose you could say the same thing about 300 hits.
Meh, I dunno.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 3, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
maybe it was too obvious
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ode to the Cubs
Up five, Cubby blue
Marmol, Gregg, Heilman too
Bye bye, W
by sluggerbird on Jun 3, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
A rhyming haiku
I like it.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the joys of living in Chicagoland
is watching games like that. heh. I yell “booyah!” in the bottom of the 12th (or whatever) and my wife rolls her eyes.
by sdrone on Jun 3, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nicely done!
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
300 wins is in my opinion the tougher feat.
It is tough for a pitcher to both stay healthy and effective long enough now a days to have a chance at 300 wins.
Also we need to start bashing Luds.
We tore up Thurston and he has bounced back. Puppy Kicker was ahem"kicked around" a good bit and he threw up a quality start.
Next we need to get Luds going. Let the bashing begin.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jun 3, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I'll play.
Luddy stinks!!!!1 DFA his butt outta here1!1
(How’s that? It’s a start at least)
by cardsgirl95 on Jun 3, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick? How about Dudwick?
He kinda looks lik the tinman from the wizard of Oz.
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jun 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he was juicing last year. That is the only explanation.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no-joy-in-mudville-wick
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Jun 3, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
oil can!
he’s rusty
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LoL. Bring out the bear will ya?
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jun 3, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it does seam to have worked for thursty hasn't it?
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems to have worked...
"Rasmus doesn't hit lefties. Instead he bashes them over the head with their own bleeding arm he just raced to the mound to rip off before the ball arrives to the plate. He then smashes that baseball with the pitchers bloody arm over the wall because he does not hit lefites he bashes them." Ted Lilly
by Red Blazer on Jun 3, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How bout we go back to Ankiel
Cause he is just horrible this year. Why o Why did he not rehab
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just make him start pitching again
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't have the heart for that
i doubt any one else does either
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take him around to the back of the shed?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HA
with the PK jersey & the old yeller line, and can see why some might have a problem with you
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somebody has to be that guy
Might as well be me
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardsgirl might take him in back of the shed...
Most of the female Cards fans I know absolutely swoon over the guy.
Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.
by Eckstreem on Jun 3, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did when I was younger.
The mustache was the final nail in that coffin.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 3, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went with 300 wins
I feel that it’s becoming more and more difficult to get 300 wins, whereas 500 home run hitters and 3,000 hit … hitters (wow, that’s redundant) will continue to become more commonplace.
For instance (and this is a really arbitrary cut-off date, I know), if you go back approximately 50 years to 1960 as a cut-off and look at how many of each occurred before and how many occurred after the 1960 season, it’s pretty telling.
500 Home Run club: Of the 25 players with 500 home runs, 6 are current players, and 22 of the 25 players hit their 500th home run during the 1960 season or after (only Ruth, Ott and Foxx had 500 home runs before 1960.
3,000 Hits: 27 players, amazingly none are current players, but if we still look at my completely arbitrary date of 1960. 19 of those 27 collected hit 3,000 during or after the 1960 season.
300 Wins: 23 players, until RJ gets 300, only 1 active (Glavine). 11 of the 23 are “modern” pitchers, having collected #300 since 1960.
Most of the 300 win names are from a time when pitchers were thrown out there for a crazy number of innings and appearances, whereas many of the 500 home run winners, someone of my age (28) has had a chance to see play the game.
So I put 300 wins head of the other two.
by mtalken on Jun 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
there was an interesting article a while back
talking about how much more difficult it was to hit homeruns way back when. the parks were bigger (ex: the polo grounds) and it used to be that if the ball landed foul, despite crossing the fence fair, it was a foul ball.
just something to keep in mind.
by longhornscardinals on Jun 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As impressive as Ruth’s 1921 numbers were, they could have been more so under modern conditions. Bill Jenkinson’s 2006 book, The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs, attempts to examine each of Ruth’s 714 career home runs, plus several hundred long inside-the-park drives and “fair-foul” balls. Until 1931 in the AL, balls that hit the foul pole were considered ground-rule doubles, and balls that went over the wall in fair territory but hooked foul were ruled foul. Many fields, including Ruth’s home Polo Grounds, had exceptionally deep center fields—in the Polo Grounds’ case, nearly five hundred feet. The author concluded that Ruth would have been credited with 104 home runs in 1921, if modern rules and field dimensions were in place. Still, Ruth set Major League records in total bases (457), extra base hits (119) and times on base (379), all of which still stand to this day.
by longhornscardinals on Jun 3, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
man that is insane
I just head about the foul pole rule the other day.
by sdrone on Jun 3, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then again
258’ down the right field line didn’t hurt the Babe much. BTW, Lou Brock hit one out to center field once for the Cubs when the Mets played there.
by random on Jun 3, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a great book, btw
but the author does take some “artistic embellishment” to come up with the numbers that he does for that 1921 season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention
if we are making modern rules apply, he would have had to compete with much better competition which would/could have brought down his numbers
by FunkeeC on Jun 3, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another couple rules that would affect Ruth's HR counts
(At least if wiki’s not lying to me.) One rule would seem to hurt him, and one would help him.
1) For most of his career, balls that bounced over the outfield wall, which of course are now called ground-rule doubles, were HRs.
2) When a HR ended a game and the batter’s run wasn’t needed, he didn’t get credit for the HR – he only got credit for the number of bases needed to force in the winning run. So for example if the score was tied in the bottom of the ninth with a runner on first, a home run would only count as a triple.
Apparently the second rule only cost him one HR compared to modern rules. I don’t know how many HR he hit that would be modern-day ground-rule doubles.
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this was already mentioned above
but 300 wins is far too subjective of a stat… plenty of good pitchers didn’t make it to 300 because they were on a bad team, etc
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Red Baron minds at all...
that he puts together these really cool draft previews with lots of content, and most of the discussion focuses on a tangent about Randy Johnson?
I mean, I assume he doesn’t. He realizes, probably, that it’s a heck of a lot easier to talk about the 300 wins thing than about a bunch of amateur players that only the really knowledgeable people actually know anything about.
I love all my children equally…
I don’t care for GOB.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it's really hard for me to come up with anything to say about the prospects
so I kind of don’t have much to say about it… I do appreciate the hard work that goes into the draft preview though, it’s something that is pretty unique imo
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really like talking Pre-Draft talk
I just want to talk Post-Draft talk.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which type?
Colby Rasmus/Brett Wallace post draft talk?
OR
Chris Lambert/Adam Ottovino post draft talk?
I’ll take the former 6 times a week and twice on Sunday, Harry!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you haven't figured out that he just makes this stuff up? some of these "prospects" don't even
exist. it’s just filler. “oh, i couldn’t find the video.” right. wake up, sheeple
there is no such person as “eric arnett.” nor is there such a place as indiana, nor does it have a “university.”
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I knew it!
I’ll bet Craig isn’t a real person either, that’s why he seemingly doesn’t exist to the organization.
And I still don’t accept the official “explanation” for TESS. TESS was an inside job!
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 3, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the truth is out there
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is this TESS that you speak of?
Cause to me, it means Texas Excavation Safety System. But I imagine I’m the only one here in the Gas & Oil Pipeline industry.
Yep, every Hall of Famer did something unique. Mike Schmidt played with his hat sideways. Roberto Clemente chewed other people's fingernails. Tris Speaker was Japanese. Lou Boudreau rode a dolphin into the batter's box. Nap Lajoie would only use John Wilkes Booth's dismembered leg as a bat. And he corked it. Johnny Mize was from the future. - FJM
by Choix003 on Jun 3, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WPA after eight weeks / two months / 50 games
I went to update my spreadsheet last Monday and found out that the file had become corrupted, so I had to completely regenerate all of my data. Sucked big time, but I’m pretty sure the Universe didn’t notice.
And now, back to the countdown (per FanGraphs) [NOTE: These numbers are through Sunday’s game, rankings are approximate]
Hitters
Team Total: 0.317 (6th in NL, 13th in majors) (no change in NL rankings from two weeks ago, despite dropping >1.400)
Best 3: Pujols (2.133), Ludwick (.745), Duncan (.508) – bonus: Stavinoha 4th @ .369
Worst 3 (non-P): K.Greene ( -.620), Ankiel ( -.529), T.Greene ( -.314) [PITCHERS: -1.122, Wainwright -.335, Welly -.334]
Best lineup spot: 3rd (2.119); worst: 9th ( -1.025); otherwise: 6th ( -.826)
Best WPA by (non-P) position: 1B (2.101); worst: 3B ( -.736) [Pinch hitters: -.847]
Best single-game performance: Rasmus 5/10 v CIN (.382); worst: Ankiel on 4/18 v Cubs ( -.343)
Best Plate Appearance: Ankiel’s RBI 2B on 4/30 (.351); worst: Greene’s game-ending DP on 4/17 ( -.290)
Starters
Team Total: 1.999 (1st in NL, 3rd in majors)
Best to worst: Carp (1.297), Wainwright (.614), Lohse (.358), Pineiro (.178), Boggs ( -.037), Walters ( -.054), Welley ( -.357)
Best single-game performance: Carpenter v MIL 5/25 (+.540); worst: Wainwright vs PHI ( -.419)
Relievers
Team Total: 1.707 (2nd in NL, 5th in majors)
Best to worst: Franklin (1.440), Motte, McClellan, Perez, Miller, Reyes, Boggs, Walters, Boyer, Thompson, Kinney ( -.584)
Best single-game performance: Perez final out v CIN 5/10 (.279); worst: Motte on Day 1 ( -.833)
Pitching
Who are we beating up: 5-hitters ( -1.177) & catchers ( -1.405) [NOTE: Game 1 Jack Wilson (.560), all other SS since ( -1.904)]
Who is beating us up: leadoff (.744) & 3rd basemen (1.338) [NOTE: Leadoff is the only spot in the order doing above average]
Best inning – hitting: 5th (1.163); pitching: 4th (1.083); combined: 4th (2.159)
Worst inning – hitting: 2nd ( -1.682); pitching: 5th ( -.713); combined: 10th or 11th ( -.500, SSS naturally); otherwise: 2nd ( -1.078)
Last two weeks: Batting -1.432, Starters +1.558, Bullpen +1.151
Trending up: Carpenter ( .887), Motte ( .576), Pujols (.372), Wainwright ( .365), Franklin ( .355), Stavinoha (.305)
Trending down: Molina ( -.485), Barden ( -.484), Ankiel ( -.315), Ludwick ( -.282) [NOTE: Every pitcher has a positive WPA, except Thompson (n/a)]
With as bad as our rotation was the first two full weeks of the month ( -1.669) and our offense the entire month ( -2.557), the team was only one game under .500 – it could’ve been a lot worse.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Jun 3, 2009 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Matt Leech does a Draft Preview
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 2:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Matthew
Guys like Bradley are exactly why we can't have a pumpkin patch anymore.
by liam on Jun 3, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brad looks like he's bawling in that pic
I've got one foot on the platform, the other foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans, to wear that ball and chain
by jd is legend on Jun 3, 2009 3:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here is Brad's Pre-Game locker routine
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
heh
and someone even said he looked like a lizard in yesterday’s game thread
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Behind the Mask the Man is Revealed
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He looks so happy there
It’s nice to be able to make a career out of doing what you love.
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
f'ing brilliant
i call dips on all PK related avatars. i just might have to bring my old sig back now.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hope we don't take a punter in the first round
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 3, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmmm
I believe Vince Coleman was a punter and that turned out OK.
by Toledo_STL_fanatic on Jun 3, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think anyone posted this but
according to Goold the cards have released Tyler Herron
link
by huts04 on Jun 3, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
whoa
gotta be something more to that than the numbers, no matter what Luhnow says.
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
already in tony's dog house?
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
somebody's, I would think
I can’t imagine that it’s more important for Kyle Mura and Trey Hearne to get innings.
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this would be a sane, though not necessarily good, rationale for releasing the hawk.
there are actually good pitchers who might need to pitch more at AAA.
AA’s pitching is terrible. has mura had one good outing this year? if anything (without looking) i would say hearne was one of the better members of the rotation.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they'd have to pry blake hawksworth's prospect card
from my cold, dead internet fingers
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you think luhnow is above internet murder, or even real murder, you don't know
luhnow.
srsly, i wasn’t advocating the release of the hawk (even if he’s not a future ML starter, he’s got the capacity to be a middle reliever). i was just trying to think up a comparable — high draftee, underwhelmed expectations — but who was in an actually crowded rotation.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, I know
I can see the reasoning behind it in abstract, but yeah, the springfield situation is a terrible one for luhnow to deploy it.
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
I suppose they won’t spell out whatever off the field misdeeds occurred here if they don’t have to. Something had to have happened though, and probably repeatedly. Herron seemed to hit a wall and his prospect status has been severely diminished over the years, but this is not strictly a performance decision. Let’s remember that we are still putting Daley out there on occasion, for the love of Pete.
I’ll be interested to see what Baker, or Goold, or anyone else comes up with in the next few days.
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 3, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
an answer of sorts -- from the tail end of today's JSL!!!
He apparently did little to impress the major-league staff and, according to some in the organization, had coachability issues. I wish I had more for you.
I’m guessing here that “coachability” is more along the lines of ignoring/being rude to/refusing instruction from coaches, rather than “we tried to teach him a cutter and he just couldn’t learn it,” but that may be my desire for an interesting subtext.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just read "A False Spring"
By Pat Jordan. He is a former top prospect from the 50’s turned writer. The book was a chronicle of his brief minor league career. He had control problems early on that he could not seem to overcome. Near the end of the book (and his career), he got passed over for a scheduled start, and immediately took a 12 hour ride back home mid game. He got demoted and decided to pound a few drinks before one of his starts in the lowest levels. His career was then over.
I can’t help but think there might be some parallels here. Doubtful Herron did the exact same things, but you have to think he was frustrated by the lack of traction in his career. He probably experienced failure for the first time in his life and the way he responded showed some flaws in his makeup.
I can’t believe this was just about the on the field struggles nearly as much as how he’s been handling himself. But like I said, I am thinking someone somewhere will start telling a little more of the story. I am sure that Goold and Baker have the networks developed and the curiosity needed to ask the right questions.
by Merry CRasmus on Jun 3, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This just screams off the field problem
Who is he blocking?
by birdo rojo on Jun 3, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roster Matrix
http://thecardinalnation.com/2009/04/10/cards-org-roster-matrix-regular-season/
This is slightly out of date but what I am guess happens is that Kopp gets promoted to AA and one of the QC pitchers gets promoted to Palm Beach since QC just stopped the tandem rotation.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Jun 3, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
newer one
I didn’t realize he made a new post, here is the updated one:
http://thecardinalnation.com/2009/05/19/the-cardinals-organization-roster-matrix-vsl-version/
And they filled the void by activating form the DL instead of promoting
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Jun 3, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kopp was aleady at AA though...
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not blocking anyone
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jun 3, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
erik had that last night
for whatever that’s worth.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jun 3, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
their reasoning
is transparently false.
HE SAID WITH A SMIRK
by Dave Barry on Jun 3, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Cards just got topped
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we just topped them right back
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Flagged!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 3, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's enough outta you, Beethoven!
Reverse double flagged!
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahhh
soap in the coffee, you got me good.
HE SAID WITH A SMIRK
by Dave Barry on Jun 3, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe Duncan can work his magic with him
and put his career on the right path?
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I chose 300 wins
because after RJ , I truly believe it will never happen again.
TRADE FOR DEROSA!!!
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs," Carpenter said. "That is a fact."
by Cuttah on Jun 3, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
they've been saying this
since Early Wynn, and all the way up to Tom Glavine. Randy Johnson had 80 wins as a 30-year old. Sabathia, Santana, Halladay, et al all have the same shot at it Clemens/Maddux/Glavine/Johnson had; the role of the starting pitcher simply hasn’t changed enough in the last 20 years to go from two guys winning 350 to nobody ever winning 300.
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the very least, it'll be 10 years
before we see another one.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 3, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
10 years from now
Tim Wakefield is going to be wheeled onto the mound with 299 wins.
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he'll be opposing Jamie Moyer
who will be going for win 350
TRADE FOR DEROSA!!!
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs," Carpenter said. "That is a fact."
by Cuttah on Jun 3, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
10 years from now
Jamie Moyer will be pitcher-manager and going for #350.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 3, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you make a good point
but I just have trouble seeing it happen again.
TRADE FOR DEROSA!!!
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs," Carpenter said. "That is a fact."
by Cuttah on Jun 3, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*happening
TRADE FOR DEROSA!!!
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs," Carpenter said. "That is a fact."
by Cuttah on Jun 3, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, looking at it a bit more
the active leader under 30 in wins is Sabathia with 122. If he averaged 20 wins the next 9 seasons, he would reach the 300 win mark.
Halladay is 32 and needs 160 wins still (20 a season-8 more seasons).
Johan Santana only has 116 wins. He’s got less of a chance than equally aged Mark Buehrle.
I’m glad I looked at this list. Because this list shown that after Carps last win, he and Mark Mulder are tied career wise.
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 3, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay being stuck on the Blue Jays probably won't help
same with Lincecum and the Giants
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both of those teams
are loaded with young talent though. The Giants just need to open up the pocket books and sign some position players the next couple of years and they could be a frontrunner in that division with the Dodgers.
The Blue Jays need to petition to move out of the AL East. :-)
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good points
their careers up to this point haven’t been helped though (mainly speaking of halladay)
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buehrle's been my dark horse 300 candidate for a few years now
but Santana’s been maybe the best pitcher in baseball over the last five years, he’s got the Mets’ pockets behind him on offense, and after a rough start he’s shown no signs of slowing down as he hits 30. And I like the odds of his high strikeout rate buffering his decline a little better than I do Buehrle’s extra 12 wins.
by DanUpBaby on Jun 3, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Santana is CLEARLY the better pitcher
but he’s also had stamina issues over the years and stamina issues is something I’m an expert on.
HEEEYY-YYYOOOOOOOO!
by Hardcore Legend on Jun 3, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why in the hell
Would you tempt the GOB with something like THIS:
I’m glad I looked at this list. Because this list shown that after Carps last win, he and Mark Mulder are tied career wise.
May the GOB smite you sir!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Posnanski did a great
post on this very subject just about a week ago. Came out of a conversation he had with Bill James. Check it out.
I was very surprised when I read it. A lot of my assumptions about 300-game winners turned out to be totally wrong. For instance, guys who win a shitload of games while really young tend to NOT be 300-win candidates.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 3, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's all about pitching well into your early mid-40's.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
got a link?
I can’t find that article.
Wait, sorry, think I found it.
by sdrone on Jun 3, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
signed adriano uribe
huge 20 year old lefty from the DR I believe
TRADE FOR DEROSA!!!
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs," Carpenter said. "That is a fact."
by Cuttah on Jun 3, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
6'4" and only 200lbs, LHSP
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Jun 3, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right Handed Bat
First post on here, for what it’s worth. Love the site though. Not a lot of other Cardinals fans in the SoCal area, so it’s nice to have a site for my Cardinals news outside of the Post-Dispatch.
Personally, I’d kind of like to see the Cardinals take a right handed hitter. Think about it. Outside of Pujols and Ludwick, we don’t really have any solid right handed threats. Molina’s great for a C, and God knows I love him, but he doesn’t really balance out Rasmus, Ankiel, Duncan, and Schumaker. Plus we have Wallace, Daryl Jones, Jon Jay, and Descalso all batting lefty. There aren’t really any projected starters that bat righty in the system (besides Kozma, and Niko, but I don’t expect them up too soon).
I’d love to have a high-upside SP too, and left-handedness would be nice, but this lack of balance somewhat concerns me as well.
by Cardinals645 on Jun 3, 2009 4:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But if you have enough good pitchers
in the pipeline, trading for good RH hitters is pretty easy. Pitchers are the currency of baseball.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 3, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
you pick the best player available at your pick, if that is a RH hitting 1B, you get him, if that is a LHSP, you get him. 2-3 years from now our greatest need could be replacing Pujols after he signs with the Yankees. You can’t draft based on need today, though you might let the depth of your system affect it somewhat I still don’t think you draft even based on that.
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Jun 3, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair Enough
Though I feel like the gaps between players’ values are slimmer by the time we pick, so that’s less relevant in our case.
If there is a notable gap, you should definitely take the best player. You do have to stop and check if it makes sense though.
by Cardinals645 on Jun 3, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, up to a point
If you have 6 corner infielders in your minor league system who were all taken in the top 20 picks, it would be beyond stupid to take another third baseman with your 15th pick when you could take another position player or pitcher who has similar talent levels.
I agree up to the point where you have ridiculous depth at certain positions though.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
unless your the Cardinals
and you have 45 corner infielders who get hurt right before the season starts
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the kid is a RH 1B at age whatever,
you’re picking a guy who doesn’t project as even adequate anywhere else on the field defensively, and drafting him for stick only. That’s pretty dangerous, especially early in the draft.
Are you saying that good-hitting 1Bs are as easy to find as good pitchers? No way.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 3, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, meant
to say that good pitchers are much harder to find than those 1Bs.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 3, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your whole comment depends on how you define "good."
to be a first-round 1b you have to be wallace with the bat or almost there. would i pick wallace over a first-round pitcher? yes.
i think your comment is responding to a different argument than what hugo is saying. hugo is saying that you should draft players based on skill, regardless of where your organizational needs are.
you’re somehow construing his comment to mean that there is no positional adjustment from 1b to pitcher. i don’t really understand since you can’t compare them directly, since one is usually measured in offensive stats, the other in pitching stats. but basically, positional scarcity in the league as a whole is a legitimate concern in drafting. hugo is saying not to consider positional scarcity inside your own organization.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK But,
Are you really going to trade your young SP, which are so rare and difficult to cultivate successfully, for a RH batter? The only time I can think of where young SPs are being moved around is when they are close to FA (or the team is getting a more established/near FAcy SP in return). I’m just not sure you’re going to be able to get equal value there.
Mostly my concern is just how we’re going to balance this out for the next few years. Our OF looks pretty full (Duncan, Rasmus, Ludwick presumably). CI seem to be set with El Hombre and The Walrus. C = Yadi. That really only leaves the MI. If we keep Schumaker at 2B, that puts 4 LHB in the lineup. I guess Tyler Greene could make it 4/4, but most of our threats still seem LH to me, especially when you consider our other prospects.
by Cardinals645 on Jun 3, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Mather might still come back
he’s RH and can play anywhere in the OF.
And I’m not ready to write off Craig or Freese, either.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
I’m not saying those guys are done either.
But would you project Mather to start over Duncan/Ludwick/Rasmus? Or Freese and Craig over Wallace?
Maybe for a bit if Wallace needs more time, but mostly like not.
by Cardinals645 on Jun 3, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is you don't
need to trade your good SP prospects for a decent-hitting 1B; guys like that are available and can be had for less.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 3, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll trade you Mark Prior or Albert Pujols
I get your point, I just like cherry picking my player comparisons. much like cherry picking lines from the bible to make yourself feel righteous.
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where in socal are ya located?
nice to see some more area fans
by FunkeeC on Jun 3, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UCSB
Though, I’m from Orange County.
by Cardinals645 on Jun 3, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard Cali is Broke
So broke
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't call it that.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by Alxfritz on Jun 3, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
YEAH!!!
It is the O.C.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hudson bay? sounds chilly. and wet.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its Huntington Beach =]
and its not so chilly and not really wet
but we do suffer from June Gloom!
by FunkeeC on Jun 3, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
speaking of which
what a miserable day it is, today.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea
nothing like cloudy boring days, even had some rain not too far from here
by FunkeeC on Jun 3, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's been 50 degree's and rainy all day
i’ll take your SoCal weather over ohio’s weather any day of the week
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had to laugh this morning though at the headline
On the OC Register’s website — “Thunderstorms Continue to Rock Orange County” — really? Have these guys ever experienced a thunderstorm? I don’t really call this cloudy misty stuff a thunderstorm.
by OCCardsFan on Jun 3, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm from C.O.
City of Orange.
I just made that up right now.
by Cardinals645 on Jun 3, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lineup Per DG
Cardinals:
Skip Schumaker, 2b
Chris Duncan, lf
Albert Pujols, 1b
Ryan Ludwick, rf
Rick Ankiel, cf
Yadier Molina, c
Joe Thurston, 3b
Kyle Lohse, p
Brendan Ryan, ss
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Jun 3, 2009 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no Colby or Barden
BEAR!!!!!! get your ass in here now!!!!!!!!
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colby is O fer
against the starter…never mind the small sample size…
"People call me El Hombre," Pujols said. "But only Stan is the Man."
by StLHugo on Jun 3, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wet OF gas = Baby Dunk D's even worse than normal
Lohse may need all the D he can get with his bum arm
they might as well send Barden back to Memphis. thursty is clearly the new Mini Me. talent & ability be damned, he’s playing every day no matter what.
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 3, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TLR's justification is nonsensical
Colby Rasmus went 0-for-3 against Cueto the lone time he has played against Cueto. Rick Ankiel went 2-for-3 against Cueto last season. Therefore, Ankiel starts. Never mind the last two games the players played.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do we know that's the rationale?
by saladdays on Jun 3, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TLR put that as the reason on his Twitter page
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
haha
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 3, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
That is just retarded. Really, with our pitch to contact staff, Rasmus should be starting everyday.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 3, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
get used to the OF rotation
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i could if they all produced
but since 1 isn’t that good right now (duncan) and another one completely sucks on every imaginable level right (ankiel) i have a hard time w/ the rotation :(
by kalmavet on Jun 3, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lineup with both Ankiel and Duncan in it right now
Is a lineup full of FAIL
I've got one foot on the platform, the other foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans, to wear that ball and chain
by jd is legend on Jun 3, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there had to be payback for that awesome lineup last night
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 3, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Balance has returned to the universe
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Jun 3, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ankiel is the black hole of suckiness of the Cardinal Universe
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dick Ankiel, hometown hero
is starting to piss me off. I know its not his fault that Tony keeps putting him out there, but good gawd, if I have to watch any more 3 – 4 pitch strikeouts and him flailing away at anything close, I’m going to lose it. Someone who consistently looks so bad shouldn’t be getting this many at bats.
Now, hopefully I jinxed him and he’ll light it up tonight.
by Ray Lankford on Jun 3, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God that is sexy
I am really likeing Tony’s lineups the past couple of days. /ducks and runs for cover
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 3, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope this OF platoon
doesn’t mess with Colby’s head. He’s finally starting to get hot, and Tony makes him sit every third or fourth day
by ChicagoRedBird on Jun 3, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mind it
Ankiel and Duncan should be given a chance
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 3, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Voted for 3000 hits.
All three take longevity, so that’s out as a measuring stick.
500 homers in today’s era could mean serious performance enhancers.
300 wins requires you to play on some pretty darn good teams, unless you have a 1968 Bob Gibson year every year.
3000 hits means that if you play for 20 years you have to nearly get a hit a game to reach your goal still. That’s incredible. In the years comprising 2006-2009, the Cardinals have had 13 (if I counted correctly) individual players’ seasons with more than a hit a game. And you would have to do that for two decades? Wow.
by stlfan on Jun 3, 2009 5:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
More on Pujols' greatness and other issues
So the poll really got me looking at some stats. Here are some interesting ones that I have found.
Albert Pujols is the active leader in hits by a player under the age of 30, with 1590 hits. The next most is Carl Crawford with 1180. Crawford is only 2 years younger.
Albert Pujols is the active leader in HR by a player under the age of 30, with 335 homers. The next most is Adam Dunn with 294. They are the same age. The next most by a younger player than Albert is Miguel Cabrera with 185. He is 3 years younger.
As stated in the Posnanski article referenced above, pitchers seem to do slightly better later in their careers, at least with win totals.
Roy Halladay (32) is the active leader in wins by a player 32 years or younger, with 140 wins. Roy Oswalt (31) and Javier Vazquez (32) are #2 at 131. Mark Buehrle (30) has 3 less at 128. Barry Zito (31) has 124. In the under 30 crowd, CC Sabathia (at 28), is next on the list with 122. Carlos Zambrano (28) has the next most in the under 30 crowd, with 99 wins.
by stlfan on Jun 3, 2009 6:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
see below
I wonder how many HRs Dunn will finish with? 500 shouldn’t be too hard. Is the man who hates baseball going to be in the HOF?
I didn’t realize Burhle was only 30. You sure he isn’t from the D.R. and lied about his age? He looks to be at least 35. Maybe it’s the beard?
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah...but guys like him
Also tend to age poorly once they start losing their quickness and hand-eye coordination. I know Giambi is a really bad example, but he is one. You just don’t see a lot of three true outcomes players being successful after age 35 or 36 — Jim Thome being the glaring exception there.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess time will tell
if he keeps up his current trend (40/yr), for 5 more years, that gives him 200 HRs + 294 = 494. That gives him 494 at the age of 35 with only 6 more to go.
I hope he does and I’d almost be willing to bet he gets well over 500.
by STLRegalia on Jun 3, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Da Na na na na Na .......
I hate you RB
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 3, 2009 6:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Question
Can we pay him just to come into games and throw at Milton Bradley? Is this possible?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, why not?
What’s the 25th guy on the roster really doing anyway?
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow...
let’s not go there. It was nice to see that post rec’d to the top of the Fanpost section though.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
also nice to see the commenrts closed ;)
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, praise Him.
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen to that
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, couldn't resist. And I was rec #5.
I was really furious when he accused you of not enjoying baseball games. Thought everyone should see it.
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a fairly intelligent post for a while
then things just got out of hand when the hypothetical “what if” situations started coming out. It’s impossible to argue against those.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It stayed surprisingly civil for a long time given the lack of logic..
…kudos to you for that.
I was hoping that my version of “Imagine” would have turned green though. Save it for another day, I guess.
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still could happen
you can still rec posts in that thread. I think I rec’d it and I’m sure that Monk did as well.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I rec'd it
that was one of the best comments ever
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 3, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about a 4th option
Some pretty impressive names on that list, and a couple of surprises (darryl evans sandwiched between Yost and Musial!). Could go 1400 as well and not include any rabble, but that’s not quite so round of a number.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like that
sabermetricizing the hall!
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 3, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the background to all this is that if you pick a sufficiently big number of anything, it works.
if you selected managers for the HOF based on the numbers of games they’d lost, you’d end up with a pretty good list.
basically, in order to get losses in sufficient number, people have to keep trotting you out there enough for you to amass even negative stats.
not comparing a walk to a lost game. obviously a walk is a positive. but a big number of anything (PA’s, BB’s, probably HBP, etc.) is going to give you a list of HOF just by durability/longevity.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just for you tom...
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna guess... Biggio
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 3, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's second. it's a less impressive list than i'd hoped, but still a pretty good haul of
future HOF’ers.
surprisingly high on the list — david eckstein at 35. very small target. still not too old. guess he knows how to work his OBP.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
grit
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Jun 3, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also surprisingly high, at least to me
Scott Rolen, at 54, tied with Pete Rose.
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lots of cards and ex-cards in the top 100.
grudz, larue(!), rolen, eckstein, larry walker.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if I was a starting pitcher
I’d have beaned him in his last three PA’s ever just to get him to the top of the list.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hope you would have hit him in the back or the butt or the thighs.
the head? he doesn’t need a series of concussions just before retirement.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, I don't throw very hard
so it probably wouldn’t have mattered where I hit him.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow - you just blew my mind, fourstick
I posted the same thing two minutes after you.
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and no,
that one doesn’t really work…Jason Kendall?
And how is it that AJ Pierzynski not in the top 1000? I would throw at him every week if I could.
I supplement that Derek Jeter’s don’t count because over half of them were done by Pedro Martinez….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he just dodges the inside balls, then takes first on the dropped third strikes.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting question...
How in the hell did Eddie Yost walk that much for player who had little to no other offensive value for most of his career? That’s crazy — he must have paid hit-men to shoot at pitchers who threw him strikes or something.
Somehow I knew that Darryl Evans was going to be up there and he immediately made me think of Chili Davis, and I don’t know why…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could always do 150 plunkings
For the Hall of Pain. Zing!
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
I’ll take the leaders of this clubhouse against just about every other one we’ve come up with. Top 30, top 50 even.
And some pretty good players up here as well, although I’m surprised how high Sosa is on this list.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
even stranger.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 3, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After listening to Joe Morgan blather for the last 15 years
I fully expected to see Tony Perez leading that list by 100 or so.
Also really surprised that Jack Clark isn’t higher on the list.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sooners all time team?
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's interesting to look at lists like that and see how the game has changed
The first active player, Omar Vizquel, doesn’t pop up until #44; and there are only two active players in the top 200 and three in the top 360 (Glavine and Smoltz are the other two). Not quite as big a skew as for triples, where Johnny Damon is the active leader at #183 (with 94 triples). Home runs, on the other hand….
by BTown Birds fan on Jun 3, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool.....
I have an internet stalker.
’’preciate ya.
Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable." - Manager Bobby Bragan
by SoonerfanTU on Jun 3, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just teasin with ya
Mang Says...
"There is no "I" in team, or in B g Mac Land, either."
by all4tookie on Jun 3, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh c'mon
that was funny, you can appreciate a little good humor, can’t ya? We’re all friends here, even if we disagree with each other on occasion.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bonds at 49
interesting.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 3, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that...
most people would take this list but would this other list do well? I think they might.
by stlfan on Jun 3, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd make a team out of...
these players as well.
by stlfan on Jun 3, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't
The first 7 all played in pinstripes. NO THANKS! That’s like picking rooting for the house in blackjack.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See
That first list just pisses me off. There’s absolutely no reason whatsoever why anyone should lead a category like that by nearly double the next guy. What it tells me is that there really wasn’t any reason for all of those intentional walks and that most of them probably hurt the team giving the intentional pass more than just pitching to the hitter in question would have.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 4, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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