The rotation and the rest of the year
Notwithstanding the recent shellacking of the Cards at the hands of the Mets, the rotation this season has performed admirably. Much discussion has been had about making Todd Wellemeyer a member of the bullpen or the disabled list and promoting one of several starting candidates to fill his slot. Now that we're almost at the midpoint -- well, a couple starts short of the midpoint for the three pitchers who've not missed a start -- of the season, it seems time to take stock of what we have.
|
Name |
GS |
IP |
ERA |
FIP |
tRA |
tRA* |
tRA+ |
|
Lohse |
10 |
56.0 |
3.99 |
4.07 |
4.92 |
4.70 |
95 |
|
Carpenter |
9 |
58.2 |
1.53 |
1.93 |
2.16 |
4.16 |
154 |
|
Wainwright |
15 |
98.0 |
3.58 |
4.07 |
4.43 |
4.32 |
106 |
|
Pineiro |
14 |
92.2 |
3.40 |
2.97 |
3.06 |
3.79 |
135 |
|
Wellemeyer |
15 |
86.1 |
5.53 |
4.85 |
5.47 |
5.27 |
83 |
There's some stunning information here. These are our original five projected starters. What we have are basically two aces . . . and yes, one of them is Joel Pineiro. Lohse and Wainwright are turning in solid work and Wellemeyer is lagging far behind.
I want to first credit chuckb's post from December, which I admired greatly. I intended this to be an update of sorts from what we saw then.
Here, I'm trying to use old standbys (ERA) to establish a comfort level for folks who don't want to learn a new acronym every week; the established stathead measurement (FIP), and some of the interesting (though still controversial) data from statcorner. One of the criticisms for FIP is that it may undersell good pitch-to-contact types, since it ignores batted balls that don't go for home runs entirely. tRA seeks to be a next-gen FIP, trying to account some of the batted ball metrics. Now, tRA remains unproven. tRA addresses what the pitcher has actually done, while tRA* winnows out what the pitcher is actually responsible for (and hopefully what he will do in the future). Rather than further expose my ignorance on tRA, I will crib shamelessly from chuckb and give you links to a simple explanation and a complex one. tRA+ is a scaled metric like OPS+ to league average where league average is 100.
The reason we're interested in league average is because of Matt Carruth's article looking at what defines a role for pitchers -- e.g., is pitcher X a #2 or a #3 type pitcher? Recall as you consider these numbers that Carruth's numbers are 2008 standards applied to 2009 stats. I would not expect them to change tremendously year-by-year, but I imagine it is possible.
The average for an ace in 2008 was a tRA of 130 -- that means pineiro is comfortably an ace, and carp is . . . cy freaking young. granted it's only 9 starts, but this is amazing. looking back at chuckb's post, carp's tRA makes him better than every single free agent pitcher last year, including CC Sabathia . . . even better than just Sabathia's second half in Milwaukee! Okay, folks, let's all say it together: standing pat on what was last year a replacement-level pitcher and getting a pitcher that comes off the DL was like making TWO off-season trades for two aces without giving anything up . . . .
You know, it really is.
Wainwright is running a little behind last year -- right on the boundary line between being a #2 and a #3 by tRA+. Lohse is running a little ahead of his great year last year, and grades out right on the boundary between a #3 and a #4. Worth noting is that FIP likes them the same so far this year -- both are at a 4.07 FIP, well above the league average of 4.33. Wellemeyer is actually a quite decent #5 -- average tRA+ for #5's in 2008 was 76.
tRA* likes pineiro to regress . . . to something like aj burnett last year! on the other hand, the gap between his FIP and his ERA suggest that he's been a little unlucky. I'm guessing he'll regress somewhat, but it would be hard to complain about the results either way.
tRA* actually likes waino, welly, and lohse to IMPROVE modestly. The tRA* projection for carp is hard for me to understand -- i'm guessing it probably comes from assuming league average performance during years when he hardly pitched at all. I would just disregard carp's tRA* at this point.
the other open question here is health, as always. when will kyle come back? will he be healthy and effective? will carp stay healthy? will someone else go on the DL?
The sore thumb in this group in terms of quality of performance is Wellemeyer. He is the only one performing significantly below average. The question is whether we would be better off with somebody else. The next group to look at are the major league subs and the minor league cast (obviously, there's overlap here).
|
Thompson* |
5 | 42.0 | 4.50 | 4.75 | 5.06 | 4.45 | 86 |
|
Boggs* |
4 |
22.1 |
3.22 |
3.60 |
4.06 |
4.68 |
114 |
|
Hawksworth |
0 | 6.2 | 5.40 | 5.60 | 4.37 | 4.42 | 101 |
|
PJ Walters* |
1 |
12.1 |
8.76 |
6.95 |
3.50 |
4.69 |
125 |
*Please note that the ERA, FIP, and IP include relief pitching as well as starts, while the tRA, tRA*, and tRA+ are only for starts. Hawksworth's stats are all for relief, since he has not started a game in the bigs yet.
The sample size for basically all of these guys in the majors is too small to tell. So, let's also bring in their minor league stats, as well as those of the other memphis starters. These numbers actually tend to confuse the issue more, rather than pointing to a clear candidate
|
Thompson |
3 |
15.2 |
3.45 |
3.07 |
4.13 |
5.15 |
120 |
|
Boggs |
8 |
42.1 |
5.31 |
4.74 |
5.31 |
5.17 |
97 |
|
Hawksworth |
10 |
62.0 |
3.92 |
3.20 |
3.74 |
4.86 |
128 |
|
PJ Walters |
9 |
54.0 |
4.50 |
3.35 |
3.89 |
4.91 |
125 |
|
Ottavino |
14 |
65.0 |
5.54 |
4.42 |
5.95 |
5.58 |
85 |
|
Mortensen |
13 |
78.0 |
4.15 |
4.28 |
4.71 |
4.78 |
109 |
Thompson had 3 great starts at Memphis by traditional measures. However, tRA didn't like the starts as much, and tRA* HATED them. Boggs had a mixed set of eight starts, and he's got almost the same tRA* as Thompson. If you're inclined to credit tRA*, this suggests that a lot of Thompson's success at the AAA level was luck; his BABIP against in Memphis is .254 for 2009. On the other hand, he has pretty poor stats in the majors in 2009, and his BABIP against for St. Louis is .265.
The remaining non-Ottavino candidates -- the Hawk, walters, and mortensen -- have had quite good seasons at AAA. FIP really likes Walters and Hawksworth. I'm struck by the comparatively poor reviews Mort gets from all the non-traditional stats. I would have thought tRA would like him a lot more. If you'd asked me before looking, I would have called Mort the closest thing to an ace on staff. But you have to acknowledge that this is a great staff; only Ottavino is well below average.
tRA* doesn't clarify things either. Mort gets a modest edge over Walters and the Hawk. Thompson and Boggs get relatively poor marks.
Honestly, dealing with these small sample sizes at two different levels, I can say nothing based on these numbers about whether Todd should be replaced, or by whom -- except that the pride of Team Italia, Adam Ottavino, should not be allowed near the rotation this year. Wellemeyer is not sinking this ship, but there's some suggestion that any one of the other five Memphis candidates could hack it as a fifth starter and maybe do better. My personal non-numbers-based prejudice is that Thompson has historically faired poorly when asked to do more than spot-start. I would rather see one of the other four get a(nother) chance at starting. I will note that Boggs has a BABIP against of .386 at the major league level and is thus likely to do better in future outings, rather than worse. I think Boggs is probably our first candidate, but I think there's ammo here to support giving Walters another chance, or giving the Hawk or Mort a chance.
The last comment I would have is we need to think about what we do with pineiro at the end of the season, if he continues to pitch like an ace. He's having a career year, but not the classic "everything-is-falling-my-way" year. Instead, he's made a turn around in how he pitches - a dramatic one that clearly is responsible for his success. I can't even think about a comp for a pitcher who drastically changes his repetoire with great success in his age 30 season. How much do we trust that success to continue? What will the market be for him? Will he want to stay with Dave Duncan and take a pay cut to do so? Do we offer him a contract? Do we not offer him a contract but offer arbitration? This, ladies and gents, is a nice problem to have.
5 recs |
39 comments
Comments
Good post.
I think we offer Piniero a contract and he declines b/c we will low-ball him. He won’t be able to find what he’s looking for and we will spend that money elsewhere, so he’ll sign a 1-year deal somewhere.
Whoa! Where did all that pessimism come from?
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 25, 2009 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i do not trust Pinata
i never have & i never will. i know for a fact the second i do he’ll stop this madness & turn into the second coming of mike maroth
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 25, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that sounds a little superstitious
4B - beer baseball bands blog
history tells us again and again how GOB points out the folly of man
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 26, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
baseball fans superstituous?
never!
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 26, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be shocked....
if he wasn’t signed by the Mets. At least he would be signed by them, if their FO was like the Cardinals. (He’s great against us, therefore he must be great).
by DiscoJer on Jun 26, 2009 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off the top of my head there are a few people I can think of who became dramatically better pitchers mid-career,
but they were mostly fireballers who eventually figured out how to not walk 7 guys a game ala Randy Johnson. Pineiro figured out how to not walk anyone. Or give up any home runs.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 25, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and the not giving up any homers thing
is a bit of a fluke. There’s no way he can maintain a HR/FB ratio of 0.19.
by chuckb on Jun 25, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep definitely
Still, his xFIP is a solid 3.83 and that underrates him because he has been an extreme ground ball pitcher so far and they will get a lot more double plays negating some of the walks and hits. Pinata’s control has looked simply amazing this year, and his success is starting to look sustainable.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 26, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
in particular, there is this guy, who shares a lot of the pitch-to-contact characteristics that Piñeiro has.
That being said, pitchers in geneal, and Jo-El in particular, have been known to have freakisly good years and then fall off of the map.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Jun 27, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is, Moyer just kind of hung around as a back and eventually mid rotation starter.
He’s never really been an ace and has never put up a full season FIP like Pineiro’s 2009. This is literally barely #5 starter production that suddenly changed into start-to-start performance as good as most ace pitchers. He took that WBC slight pretty personally I guess.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 27, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pinata
I feel his track record is such that we’d be foolish to pay for his 2009 (making a similar mistake to paying for a dozen or so starts in 2007 last time) – we’ve kinda “got away” with the bad contract last time because he’s become such a solid option this year. I think his success is to some extent sustainable, but a large part luck – he’ll probably be a solid, mid-rotation guy going forward, but probably not sustain his ace-type numbers (mainly due to regression in his HR/FB rate). Also, control pitchers are strange beasts – it really doesn’t take much going wrong (another BB per game, a slight loss of control) and they can quickly fall on their arses; Pineiro’s success seems to be due to a “real” change in his skill level (adding movement to his two fastballs in exchange for a little velocity) but his super-human control needs to continue for him to keep pitching close to this level, EVEN IF his unsustainable HR/FB rate (by some stroke of insane luck) stays so low.
So basically, we offer him arby (with a good season maybe he ends up a type B?) but I’m not getting into any sort of bidding war for his services in 2010. Over-paying for career years is not a smart way to run a baseball team (see Dempster, Ryan and, in 2012, Lohse, Kyle).
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 26, 2009 9:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think offer him arby...
and be ok if he accepts or doesn’t. Any draft picks would just be gravy.
Right now Thompson stays in the rotation until he pitches his way out of it IMO. If we were going to start Boggs of Brad wouldn’t we have been doing so for the last three weeks? Do we expect Lohse back the end of this week or next week?
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 29, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he'll pitch one of the double header games against chacgo on the 12th
rehab in memphis on tuesday (?)
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 6, 2009 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if we demote welly/pick up another injury
Boggs would be my choice. He should’ve been our #6 all year, so I’m not really sure why Thompson’s got the nod to replace Lohse this time (although he’s not done too badly, so far).
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 26, 2009 9:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I've got it.
Pineiro is Joe Blanton circa 2007! Run, you fools!
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 27, 2009 10:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
3.50 FIP
Nice
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 28, 2009 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the colonel's replacement
can dunc work some magic with this guy?
by _pistol_ on Jun 29, 2009 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps Snell is not the type of pitcher
that Duncan prefers. The consensus seems to be that Duncan likes the democratic/groundball* types, and Snell is more of the fascist/strikeout* pitcher I believe.
*Yes, those were Bull Durham references.
Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.
by Gregatron on Jun 29, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
snell in 09
ERA: 5.36
FIP: 4.53
xFIP: 5.15
tra: 5.21
tra*: 5.31
tra+: 89
He would be a very modest step up from wellemeyer for this season. I would trade him straight up for wellemeyer, for a “change of scene” trade, but not much else. Neither tRA* or xFIP like him to be a very good pitcher this year. That said, his ceiling is definitely higher than welley’s.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 30, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the one that got away, by contrast
chad gaudin
ERA: 4.97
FIP: 3.75
xFIP: 4.10
tra: 4.19
tra*: 4.59
tra+: 111
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 30, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we were idiots not to get in on Gaudin
I really thought we screwed the pooch on that one.
Mo doesn’t have a particularly good record so far at getting the most out of the FAT on offer round the leagues.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 1, 2009 7:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God. So true.
I loved Gaudin, can’t believe the way he has been jerked around in his career.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jul 2, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus yes
I even wrote a post before the season about him! Why didn’t you listen to me Mo?
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 2, 2009 5:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously though
Snell, Gaudin, Hill, Langerhans… the list goes on and on regarding F.A.T players who are potentially usefull each year. I like that we took a shot with Thurston, who does fit into that mold, but I would like to see a lot low risk high reward pickups.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 2, 2009 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
RJ Swindles was another intriguing name at the start of this year. Throws about 60mph but absolutely dominated in the minors.
Still, I thought the same about Ian Ostlund and look how that one turned out…. But there’s really no excuse for ever paying anything for role-playing relievers, middle infield backup guys, OFers with pop and no glove etc. You can almost always get a bunch of those sorts of players for next to nothing. Paying Aaron Miles nearly $3m would make me puke, as a Cubs fan.
We really missed out on getting one of Durham/Grudz too. Both solid 2Bs still and could’ve surely been had for $3m or less at the start of the year. I bet we’re 1-2 wins clear of the top of the NL Central right now (at least) if we’d had another serviceable RHB and were able to stick Schumaker into LF for all of Duncan’s starts this year.
I’m still kinda doubtful (despite some suggestions from Huntington) that Snell counts as “FAT” – I still reckon they’ll want something for him.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jul 3, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched the two vids on Gaudin
looks like a Cardinal to me…a younger, stronger Braden Looper
by the Tewk on Jul 5, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I were the Cardinals
I wouldn’t really touch Snell. But if the Cardinals were me, I’d be all over him. He’s a Khalil Greene type trade, and despite Greene’s season so far I still think it was a good chance to take at the time. (btw, who ever thought Luke Gregerson would tip the scales in the Pads’ favor?)
I say he goes to the Tigers or White Sox and recaptures some of his 06-07 form.
In what St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa called a "big day" for his club, starter Chris Carpenter took the mound for his first session of live batting practice and promptly buzzed the fuzz on catcher Jason LaRue’s chin with an errant fastball.
"Sorry," Carpenter called from the mound.
"Don’t say you’re sorry," LaRue barked back.
"He said it," pitching coach Dave Duncan said from the side of the cage, "but he didn’t mean it."
~ DG
by mateodh on Jun 29, 2009 4:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know the Reds are in the same division
But how about Ludwick for Arroyo?
by nybirdfan on Jul 1, 2009 3:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
arroyo's projection for the rest of the season looks as bad or worse than wellemeyer's.
also, he has carpal tunnel, according to rotowire on fangraphs.
also, not only is he within our division, but their GM is walt jocketty, who i’m guessing won’t trade the cardinals a pot of piss if the club caught on fire.
also, that’s a terrible idea. also.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 1, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
holy shit
are you serial?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 6, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
obviously not
I have been on this site for a long time now. and you guys still don’t get me. Well, maybe that isn’t quite right cause I am mostly ignored anyway. Wether I am serious or not.
by nybirdfan on Jul 6, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait
what were you saying?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Jul 6, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was being sarcastic
He’s a regular here, and obviously wouldn’t make such a stupid suggestion.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 6:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anybody else questioning Welley's elbow?
His velocity is down and he isn’t throwing his slider. I don’t think he’s returned to pre-injury health vs. WAS last year. Of he isn’t confident that his elbow will take the strain.
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jul 2, 2009 8:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
On a somewhat related note, (it has to do with the rotation and has the word year in it)
For next year, do you think Jaime Garcia will make any contributions in the majors, and if so when? The report is saying that he could be back sometime this September. Just saw that and was wondering what everyone’s thoughts were on the subject and didn’t want to make a fanpost of it.
Get DeRosa now or at least bring Barden back. Thurston Sucks.
by JoeyBombs on Jul 7, 2009 11:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
garcia is a very important piece going forward.
i think anyway you slice next year’s rotation you get garcia, boggs, and mortensen in a race to seize the 5th starter spot. garcia has the most talent of the above pitchers, but may be hampered in ST by his injury. i think you see him making at least spot starts next year — even if he doesn’t make the #5 spot out of ST, he’ll be one of the first choices to fill in for anyone who gets injured.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jul 8, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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