Shifting from Trade targets to FA targets
I haven't contributed any hairbrained ideas, and am feeling left out. i also needed to put something in the body of this fanpost apparently.
So I am wasting time at work, looking at available free agents after the 2009 season. It would appear that reinforcements are again not forthcoming, so I have turned my attention to the upcoming 2010 FA class, looking specificly at hitting. It is foolish to try and distill the ills of the current offense down to two things, but that never stopped me before.
#1 We need a legit power hitter. This situation may improve somewhat if Ludwick (no longer deserving of a nickname?) regains his form, but even then I'd be hesitant to invest myself too heavily in his imcomplete resume. It wouldn't be such a bad thing if we could bolster the veteran presence on the club as well, especially if we want TLR to stick around. Personally, I've been waiting for the Secret Weapon to begin based mostly on the one time my Dad and I toured the old baseball museum at Busch II and Jose signed our tickets. The answer: Jermaine Dye. Model of consistency, and could sign shorter term given his age. A decent option to bat behind the Hombre, I would think he might sign a 2 year $22 million deal or something.
#2 We need a leadoff guy. Skip is not a leadoff hitter, no matter how often he slides into first. Ryan isn't one either - .323 and .343 OBP for those guys, respectively this year and .345 and .330 career. Having signed Dye already, this leadoff guy should be an infielder, and should be a versatile one. The answer: Chone Figgins. Stolen bases are something this team hasn't done in a while, and Figgins this year has a .399 OBP and .359 for his career (Last 3 years have been his highest in OBP - seems like a good trend). Figgns can also play 3B and 2B, allowing us to play/bench Wallace/Skip next year, whoever appears most ready to contribute. Making $8.5mil this year. I wouldn't want to pay more than that.
Proposed Lineup -
Figgins - 2B/3B
Rasmus - CF
Pujols - 1B
Dye - RF
Ludwick - LF
Wallace/Skip - 3B/2B
Molina - C
Pitcher
T Greene - SS
With Larue and minor leaguers on the bench, our signed and arb inelgible relievers and 3 starters locked up, this should put payroll at around.$80mil, seemingly enough room for a starting pitcher. What do you think? If anything, we could help shed the rep that we don't field any african american players.
1 recs |
171 comments
Comments
chone figgins
what a baseball name
4B - beer baseball bands blog
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by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 16, 2009 5:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
God no.
Jermaine Dye is not worth it.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 16, 2009 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wouldnt be that bad of an option
his line is .274/.328/.417/.745 with a .372 wOBA. I’ll admit an $11M/yr pricetag is pretty steep maybe if we could work that down to $9M with incentives bringing it up to $11M this would be a good pickup
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring" -Rogers Hornsby
by stlwcards on Jun 16, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does a 274/.328/.417 slash line possibly translate to a .372 wOBA?
Also, he plays terrible defense in a corner outfield spot. Not worth it.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 16, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
according to fangraphs hes .274/.346/.534
but the wOBA’s right
2 years/22 is too rich for my tastes…now 2 years/15 is a horse of a different colors…but something tells me thats not gonna happen
by VolsnCards5 on Jun 16, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno...
Pat Burrell signed for 2Y$18M last season, so anything is possible.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 17, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think 2/18 is about right for Dye
but I’m not convinced that’s a particularly good price for him. There’s better value out there.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fangraphs wOBA/WAR thing seems to be broken at the moment
I think they must be repairing it.
I don’t mind Dye too much, he’s probably about an average corner outfielder at this stage of his career. His defence does worry me but he has a decent arm and so I think he could play LF and potentially be marginally better than Duncan. However, I just don’t think he’s that much of an upgrade – if we’re going to pay him $11m/yr he really needs to be at LEAST 2 marginal wins better than what we have internally, and I just don’t see how he’s going to be that much better than a Duncan/Mather platoon in LF.
I quite like Figgy but again, I’m not sure he’s a huge upgrade over Thurston at 3B, and, if Wallace is still here, I really want to see him start every day at the hot corner. Figgins isn’t so hot with the glove at 2B, so I think I’d rather go out and get a “proper” middle infielder, or even just go with the uber-defensive Greene/Ryan/Thurston grouping to make up for Wallace’s crappy glove at third.
I’d like us to focus more on defense next year – put out as solid an offensive ball-club as we can, but only carry defensive blackholes if they’re premium prospects (Wallace) or excellent hitters (i.e. not Duncan).
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 6:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His defense drives his talent level down near replacement level.
With people like Bay and Holliday out there can we at least start our wish list somewhere other than wildly overpaying for a replacement level late thirty year old?
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 16, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh i miscalculated.
He’s not replacement level, just mediocre.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 16, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bay and Holliday
are way too expensive, I don’t realy consider then “out there” in my world view. This is less of a wish list and more of a “what might actually happen” list. Please don’t get the impression that I’d rather have Dye and Figgins over anyone else.
by PhillyRedbird on Jun 17, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jermaine Dye
Pros:
We would be getting a 125 OPS+ outfielder.
Cons:
22M/2y
Terrible defense.Dye is twice as bad as Chris Duncan according to UZR.
He’s 35 years old.
Its not worth it.
Feel free to correct my grammar. Its been 22 years since i moved abroad. i could use help refining my writing.
by viktor on Jun 16, 2009 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure how they figure UZR
but to be twice as bad as Duncan would make me think youre describing a tree stump, not a pro athlete
"I don't take no anesthetic. Did Lincoln ask for any girlie gas when they blowed his head off?"
by boba schrute on Jun 17, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
otherwise known as 1 Adam Dunn unit :-)
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are right
my bad
Feel free to correct my grammar. Its been 22 years since i moved abroad. i could use help refining my writing.
by viktor on Jun 17, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see
Dye has a career wOBA of just .354 and a career OBP of .338. Consider also that his numbers are inflated from playing the last few years in Comiskey Park. His defense is awful and he’s been worth more than $9M just once in his career — in 2006. $11M per year to a guy who’ll be 36 next year and has only once been worth that amount of money seems like a good expenditure? Is he, right now, any better than Ryan Ludwick, who’s younger and cheaper?
Figgins also is way overrated. He’ll be 32 in January and has a career wOBA of .337, making him distinctly a league average player. Any value he gets comes from the positional adjustment he gets from playing 2B. There’s little doubt that at least Figgins fills a hole — not the leadoff position, but 2B — but I don’t have a lot of interest in paying a 32 year old whose career wOBA is .337 $8.5 M a year for 3 years or so. We could sign Ray Durham right now to give us what Figgins would give us and we could do it for considerably less $$$.
And as for Dye’s being a 125 OPS+ guy — he’s only done that once in his career before playing for the White Sox in their hitter friendly yard. There’s no way he’d be even a league average player in our relatively pitcher friendly yard as a 36 year old.
by chuckb on Jun 16, 2009 7:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree about Dye, but this doesn't make sense:
Figgins also is way overrated. He’ll be 32 in January and has a career wOBA of .337, making him distinctly a league average player.
A .337 wOBA makes him a little better than average hitter (actually, given that he has played his entire career in the AL, a switch to the NL might result in a healthy bump to his offensive production), however, we know that there is more to baseball than just hitting. Figgins, if we are looking to him as a third baseman, has a career 3.7 UZR/150 at that position. If you combine that with slightly above average offense and the positional adjustment, he is a 3 WAR player, which isn’t great, but a sizable upgrade over Thurston/Barden.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 16, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention that Figgins has been one of the elite baserunners of the game.
Dan Fox’s BP metrics had him adding over half a win on the basepath. While there’s some variance in those baserunning stats, there’s also consistency among the elties.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jun 17, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And from a purely fan-centric viewpoint
it’d be kind of cool to have an elite baserunner on our staff (even though it’s a skill that’s been traditionally over-valued – see Pierre, Juan) because it’s pretty cool to watch. I’ve always felt (in a highly un-sabermetric way) that it adds some “untangible”-type element, too. I wonder if certain pitchers struggle more in situations where they’re facing a hitter in a close game with an elite base-stealing threat on 1B; I’m sure all those pick-off throws, plus the mental demands of keeping tabs on the runner, the possibility of getting needlessly behind in counts due to pitch-outs, and working out of the stretch must have some effect, at least on some pitchers. I’ve often thought that there’s probably a way of measuring that, actually.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i've always somewhat fooloshly thought....
That Roger Cedeno on first was a significant factor in the 2004 NLCS Game 7.
btw, is everyone else as pissed as me about how that series was so completely overshadowed by the ALCS? A real shame.
by PhillyRedbird on Jun 17, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea it is a shame
i have game 7 on dvd and have watched it probably 20 times and i still think the series is one of the best in recent memory
although the 2006 nlcs was probably better
by cardsforever on Jun 18, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2006 nlcs
is the best series i can think of
by prophetjohn on Jun 21, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fo sho
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 21, 2009 4:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at game 7 2004... in Big Mac Land...
I won’t ever forget that game.. I also won’t ever forget watching Game 6 at home and getting a call from my dad after I was jumping up and down we were still in it, that he had tix to game 7.
by ADMDrayson on Jun 23, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good baserunner could be a WPA monster
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For anyone curious,
Dan Fox’s baserunning stats for STL are found here.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jun 17, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best baserunners:
Colby Rasmus
Brendan Ryan
Worst baserunners:
Pujols
Duncan
Molina
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jun 17, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having Pujols on that list
makes me question it a little bit. SSS thing or has Albert been that bad this season?
Having Ryan on the best list is also a bit infuriating. Is this the same Brendan Ryan who was gunned down stealing third base in the 8th inning of a 3 run game a couple of weeks ago? Does his baserunning stats take into account “boneheaded” decisions like that one?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 17, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple notes:
1) I don’t think this is context sensitive. It’s based on a RE matrix rather than an RE matrix by inning. So making an out at 3rd in the 8th would be the same as doing so in the 1st inning. Personally, I’m not a fan of context statistics (WPA, LI, etc) but that’s an opinion thing.
2) The stat incorporates advancing on a variety of situations not just steals and caught stealings. There’s advancing on hits, ground outs, air outs and other (wild pitches, passed balls, etc.) so while albert leads in SBs, he’s been a negative in every other category. I would guess that some of this reflects his aggressiveness on the basepaths at trying to advance on hits but that’s pure conjecture without looking at individual plays.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jun 17, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All baserunning is context-sensitive though.
I don’t see how you can measure baserunning with a non-context sensitive approach. When you’re straight-stealing 3rd base in the 8th inning of a 3 run game with only one out and the best hitters on the team coming up, that’s terrible baserunning. When you run through a stop sign at 3rd base with nobody out in the 8th inning of a 2 run game and get thrown out by 10 feet at home plate, that’s terrible baserunning.
If you take the context out of those events, they don’t look near as egregious, but when you add in the context of the situation they may well have cost your team a chance to win the game. To me, a lot of baserunning is based on time, score, and situation, if you fail to understand that then you’re a bad baserunner.
Dave Roberts’ steal in the 2004 ALCS means very little outside of the context of the situation, but any Red Sox fan will tell you that it was the biggest baserunning play of their lifetime.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 17, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand everything you're saying.
I simply don’t buy into any of it and it’s a conversation that many people have had with me without success.
I view baseball as a set of isolated events. A pitcher who struggles to hold runners in the first is going to struggle to hold them in the 8th. I know a lot of people don’t view it that way and there’s arguments (defensive alignment, reliever leveraging, etc) that are used as persuasive counter examples but it’s just not how I determine a player’s value.
In terms of watching a game, context matters to me a lot. It matters to me for individual plays and outcomes. But when I’m trying to determine what a player is worth, I prefer a context neutral stat.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Jun 17, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I can get with this...
if it is saying they are good baserunners…not smart baserunners.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 17, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess also that, to some extent
decisions about when to steal and when not to are an organisational thing, e.g. when to give a green light, signals from third base coach and the dugout etc.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
You think Albert Pujols is a bad baserunner and that Brian Roberts is worse?
Sure, I buy into the top 25 and worst 25 on this list, but the middle 600 is pretty inconsistent from year to year.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 18, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
beg to differ
on Pujols who leads.led the team in steals so far this season
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 20, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins is actually only making...
5.775M this year, which is much more appealing than the 8+ previously mentioned.
by Jumsy on Jun 19, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 17, 2009 4:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For that Price
Holliday might even be available. he’s a proven hitter, and hell, he had a few steals last year as a Rocky. He would work fine, although the type A might scare me away.
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
by Taskmaster on Jun 17, 2009 12:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Holliday
might command a 9-figure contract I think. No way we can afford him.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 6:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Anymore
Holliday will get something like 5yr/80 mil, no way he gets over $100 million.
by Gnick on Jun 21, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MLBTR...
… had a post saying that if the season ended right now, both Glaus and Franklin would be Type A free agents. if we offer them arb and they decline, then we could sign one or even two Type As and keep our first-round pick. or, if we don’t sign any Type As, we could have as many as 3 first-round picks and a couple supplementals.
of course, the season hasn’t ended yet, and one (or both) of them might not stay in that class. plus either could accept arb (Glaus to re-establish value, Franklin b/c he’s not perceived as an elite closer). but those seem like gambles worth taking, since even if they accept there is a good chance they’d both be worth their salaries.
by kindred on Jun 17, 2009 3:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I really wouldn't want Franklin back
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 17, 2009 4:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe...
… but there’s a decent enough chance that he’s a 1 WAR player moving forward, and i doubt he’ll get $5mn in arbitration.
plus, he could always be moved back to starting, replacing Wellemeyer or Piniero.
i think it’s probably worth the gamble. although, the decision to not offer arb to Springer looks pretty good right now. but he wasn’t a Type A.
by kindred on Jun 17, 2009 5:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Franklin has a career 4.89 FIP
There is absolutely no way that this years hot start makes him a 1 WAR player moving forward.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 17, 2009 5:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whilst I'd need to see some PitchFX stuff to really convince myself of my own argument here...
I feel that Franklin HAS made some real advances in his skills, both this year and over his career as a Cardinal as a whole, and that his career FIP is somewhat adversely affected by his time as a starter; he’s only been a reliever (after being a sucky SP for the Mariners for 4 years) for the last 4 years. In that time he had an absolutely sucky year beset by HR playing for the Phillies and Reds, but to some extent you could put that down to the upheaval of playing for two clubs, and in two very homer-friendly stadiums (yes, I don’t think you can discount that year totally, as his K/BB ratio also sucked and he basically pitched like garbage), but then 3 years in which he’s been pretty solid for the Cards (FIP of about 4).
He’s been below replacement level as a reliever over his career, which kind of hurts my argument, but his peripherals have been good as a Cardinal – K/BB ratio around 3, which isn’t elite reliever category but is well above average. Also, this year he HAS made a major change in his skill-set and approach: he’s dumped his slider more or less and started using a higher-velocity cutter, which is so far worth 1.1 run above average/100 pitches, and which has seemingly helped his FB to be worth a lot more than his career numbers too (perhaps the two pitches, which differ in speed by only ~1-2mph, are hard to distinguish between, and thus become a harder proposition to hit). He can use the cutter on “fastball counts” to keep hitters off balance, rather than going to his mediocre breaking stuff or simply rearing back to throw his crappy 90mph heater. He’s also gone to his curveball a lot more this year, which has been a below-average pitch for his career but very effective so far in 09 (sample size artefact?) and which is presumably a better pitch to match up with the FB and cutter against lefties, who he’s traditionally struggled against at times during his career.
Again, small sample size abounds, and you could also argue that his slider has actually been quite effective in his career (thus dumping it perhaps wasn’t necessary) but I like his arsenal a lot more this year – he’s focussed on three pitches, and (both to eye and, so far, by pitch-type linear weights) he’s been more effective with them. I realise it’s hard for an old dog to learn new tricks, but you could argue that his improved K/BB rate as a Cardinal (even including his sucky 08 season), the fact his career numbers have been pulled down by his crappy career as a SP, and the fact he’s changed his pitching repertoire and found improved success with it (so far) this year portends better things to come for Franklin. ZiPS projects a 4.20 FIP over the rest of the season, which is well above replacement-level FIP, and, if the projections are underestimating him due to his changed repertoire, I don’t think it’s inconceivable that he could even exceed that.
Also, (not levelling this at you here, at all, more so at the community in general) I could never really understand why everyone thought that Russ Springer, pushing 40 and a mediocrity for most of his career, was suddenly an ace-level reliever after 2 good years with the Cards, whilst Franklin (mid-30’s and a mediocrity for most of his career), still totally sucks. Both improved their peripherals over their career numbers substantially, and, in Springer’s case, I was never sure that it was THAT repeatable – Springer’s K/BB ratio in his Cardinal career was much the same as Franklin’s BUT, despite being a FB pitcher, he only had something like 4.5% of his flyballs turning into homers in his Cardinal career – despite his decent FIP, I’d argue that Springer was always simply an average-ish reliever who just got lucky in his two years with us.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 6:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, that's a lot of info to digest
Let me just say this. Franklin has been better this year than ever before. Obviously, he is getting insanely lucky in the BABIP in LOB% department (.225 and 99%!!!!!!!!! respectively), however, his FIP is still a solid 3.41. But that comes with a 6.7 HR/FB ratio, which is well below his previously established levels (and he’s spent most of his career in pitcher friendly parks like STL and SEA, with the expect of 1 year in Philly). His xFIP checks in at 4.11, which is still pretty solid and still better than he’s previous two years in STL.
His projection 4.20 FIP sounds about right, however, that would not make him a valuable reliever in any stretch of the imagination. Other relievers who had a 4.20 FIP last year were guys like Blain Boyer and Clay Condrey. If you assume that Franklin would be able to pitch 70 innings with a 4.20 FIP, he would be worth less than a half a win. I don’t know about you, but I would hardly be willing to pay 5 million a year for that kind of production, especially when you could get it from literally any minor league starter for free.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 17, 2009 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep I agree totally, really
I think you could also refute much of what I said by the simple fact that’s Franklin’s been below-replacement level, as a reliever, thus far in his career (splitting hairs, he’s been more or less replacement, and I’m personally not convinced that FanGraphs’ method for assigning WAR to relievers is watertight). I agree about the HR/FB thing too (also, his FB% is actually up this year – although I think folks might just be hitting more weak pop-ups due to the cutter, quite possibly HitFX would ultimately tell us that he’s actually just got lucky that a high % of well-hit FB into gloves).
And I agree that a 4.20 FIP reliever probably isn’t worth $5m, especially when we have Todd, Perez, Motte, possibly Kinney and maybe a couple of others who could do a similar job. Frankly, he’d be high on my list of players I’d like to see traded this year, as I think he could bring something useful back and, as you said, really isn’t a particularly huge asset. HOWEVER, if he’s a type-A, I WOULD be prepared to offer arbitration – I’m leveraging the possibility that we might overpay for his production by maybe $2-3m (if he accepts) against the possibility of getting a sandwich pick (probably not an outright first rounder, if I understand the system, as no-one will give up their 1st round pick to sign Ryan Franklin) in compensation if he declines. I’m guessing a sandwich pick (given the values I’ve seen bandied about for first round picks) is worth a LOT more than a couple of million, so if there’s much chance at all of him declining arby, it’s worth it.
Of course, the fact that he won’t be very attractive to other teams as a type-A, plus the fact he’s not that great, might mean he’s less likely to get a substantially better deal on the free market than he might get in arby, thus makes him more likely to accept. And so we go round in circles. It might be better if he’s a type-B; other teams are less likely to be put off by losing a draft pick, so he’ll have more potential suitors (not just the ones with protected picks or who’ve already signed a type-A) and thus will be more likely to turn down arby, although obviously we’ll get a lower draft pick, but it’s still probably worth the risk. In contrast, I’m glad they didn’t offer Springer arby because it seemed likely he’d get $5m, when he didn’t really pitch enough innings to quite be worth it, given our plentiful RHRP options, and when by all accounts he was keen to stay in StL, so we didn’t have the likely benefit of a compensation pick.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
depends if you base WAR on his on-field performance
or on his FIP. I still think Fangraphs does this wrong (you don’t adjust batters WAR for BABIP, after all, so why pitchers?)
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FIP is a measure of his actual ability
I don’t deny that Franklin has been valuable to us because he has good results, despite crummy peripherals; but there is no evidence that Franklin does anything special that should allow him to continue to outperform his FIP.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 17, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
other than about 1100 career innings pitched
with a career ERA almost a run less than his career FIP, and a career BABIP of 0.273 over 1821 batters faced.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not enough for me
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 17, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fine...
… but my point wasn’t that he was a good pitcher. my point was that he’s good enough that if he accepts arb and gets a $3mn contract he’s not going to kill the team, and if he declines then we get 2 draft picks.
in other words, he’s good enough that the gamble makes sense. especially if he moves to the rotation, where he could fill a cheap spot and perform at least as well as Welly/Piniero.
by kindred on Jun 17, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok
what WOULD be enough?
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 18, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure
Just because it has happened in the past doesn’t mean it will continue to. It isn’t only FIP that says he sucks. tRA (which attempts to adjust for BABIP control skills) has him pretty crappy as well.
Look, maybe Franklin has a skill to keep his BABIP low and his strand rate high for his entire career. However, it’s been shown that the huge majority of major leaguers don’t have that skill. l would be more inclined to think that Franklin has just gotten lucky for his entire career.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Relievers often have ERAs lower than their FIP and BABIPs well below average.
Even over long careers some maintain these oddities.
Decrease runs scored?
Maybe.
Decrease winning? Never seen that proven.
-SFTU
by hazel on Jun 18, 2009 5:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Must be the beards.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you only pitch the last 1 or 2 outs of an inning
its easy to beat the FIP.
by DriverZn on Jun 19, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why?
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 19, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah i don't get that either
you’d think that it’s actually HARDER to beat the FIP – when the game’s on the line and the other team are within shouting distance, they’re more likely to pinch-hit for the weaker hitters on their team. Although I think the “bullpen ace” (6th, 7th and/or 8th inning guy who comes in to sort out men-on-base type jams and pitch against the better parts of the opposition order) probably faces tougher hitters than anyone, the closer should certainly be facing tough hitters more often than, say, a mop-up guy or a starter (esp. in the NL as the closer won’t ever be facing a pitcher, whereas the other relievers might be).
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 19, 2009 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of this Franklin discussion is a moot point...
he has a club option for 2.75M with a 250K buyout. he’ll be a Cardinal next year for this price as long as his health stands the remainder of the year.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jun 18, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Franklin has a fairly inexpensive team option – can we offer him arbitration if he has an option year that we control? I’m not sure how that works….
I would probably take the risk of offering Franklin arby – he’s less likely to accept (IMO) than Springer was last year, and I can’t see him getting more than $4 or $5m; although that’d be badly overpaying, it’s maybe worth the risk of giving the guy a few mill more than he’s worth for the chance of getting a sandwich pick if he signs with someone else (I’m guessing no-one gives up a first round pick by signing a so-so reliever, if they’ve got an unprotected pick, but maybe someone who’s already signed a type-A or one of the teams with a protected pick might offer him something).
If Glaus wants to accept arby, that’d be absolutely fine (providing he’s healthy at the end of the year). I can’t imagine that he’d get any sort of major raise in his salary and his current contract is pretty reasonable.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 6:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
does he have an option?
I thought he did, but then I googled and couldn’t find anythign about it.
If he does, you can certainly decline the option and then offer arb.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah, found it
$2.75M with a $250K buyout.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 17, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins would be a good fit
But Dye, given his age and struggles, would not be.
Welcome to Baseball Heaven.
by zoomzoomj88 on Jun 17, 2009 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also factored into my "reasoning"
…if you can call it that, is the FA’s available and the relative demand for those players. I feel that these two are proven guys who should be signable. I agree with other posters that Holliday, if he puts together a nice second half with whomever he gets traded to, we you can forget about it.
I think it’s important, especially if we have a new manager next year, to have a lineup that is more or less the same everyday. TLR is an expert mechanic, which is why he can be permitted to tinker with the engine everyday – I don’t think it would be a good idea to allow a younger manager that freedom.
There is an inherent problem with comparing an everyday players production with a platoon player (everyone on our team but Pujols or Molina) and that is supposedly TLR is playing those player in situations he believes they are best suited to succeed. Joe Thurston would be totally exposed as a full-time starter – so in his platoon role he may appear only a smidge worse than Figgins, but in a fulltime role the difference is dramatic.
I don’t see many better options on the FA market, and I especially like Figgins because he allows us flexibility regarding Wallace. Of course Orlando Hudson would work here, but I think that after he was severely underpaid he may be equally overpaid in 2010. DeRosa may fall into that same category, but he’s as good if not better an option than Figgins – I may have just forgot he was a FA. I also have a place in my heart for Polanco, but his numbers have been uninspiring of late.
Finally, I admit that my love of Jermaine Dye is fueled in part to inclusion and success on many a fantasy team over the years. I also had not looked into his defensive numbers, and am quite suprised he is not at least an average corner OF.
by PhillyRedbird on Jun 17, 2009 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Polanco remains pretty undervalued
even though he’s in his decline phase. If he’d take a one-year deal of the sort that Hudson signed, I’d be happy to have him back for 2010.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I could...
hold back the tears of joy should we sign PP back. I have always regretted seeing him play elsewhere, though I have to admit the trade worked out in our favor more than just a little bit.
Sign Placido Polanco – is it too early for this?
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 17, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My concern is that
a) he’s getting old and
b) his skillset (no walks, no Ks, average-based, slap-hitty, contact hitting on-base sort of guy) doesn’t typically age that well.
Still, he’s been a pretty elite defensive 2B (and 3B, and even earlier in his career SS) throughout his whole career, so even if he only hits .280-odd with no power and no walks he’d probably be at least average.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can hear all the noise...
but all I’m listening to is Placido Polanco second base St. Louis Cardinals. It’s the heart leading the mind here for me.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 17, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh definitely
I’d like him back. One of my favourite players. He’s also undervalued, so, yep I think it’d be good if we get him for one year and $8m or less.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still amazed people want to have him fired
but I guess some people don’t like his style.
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
by Taskmaster on Jun 17, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take on the FA's
Going through Cot’s list of Free Agents position by position, this is what I see:
Catcher – Not needed (starter). If either of the other two Molina brothers are at the point in their career where they want to back up little brother…I’d be fine with that.
1st base – Not needed and nobody jumps out at me.
2nd base – Needed. Mark Derosa, Orlando Hudson, Placido Polanco, Freddy Sanchez jump out at me.
3rd base – Possibly needed. Troy Glaus jumps out at me. If he ends up healthy next year, maybe he thinks he owes us and signs cheap. If not, then Adrian Beltre could be an answer. I don’t think it’s needed because we should have injuries to Mather, Craig, Wallace, and Freese next year.
Shortstop – Possibly needed. Orlando Cabrera (?) and Jack Wilson (?) are out there. Cabrera is pretty good defensively and hits better than Izturis. Wilson has an option…not sure if it’s team or player.
Outfield – Possibly needed. I see Rasmus in center and Ludwick in L/R for a year or two, at least. The other OF spot could be needed if Duncan doesn’t regain his 40 homer a year power, which looks likely. Jason Bay, Mike Cameron, Coco Crisp, Carl Crawford, Ryan Freel, Vladdy, Matt Holliday, Xavier Nady, Manny Ramirez, Magglio Ordonez, and Randy Winn all jump out at me for various reasons and for varying lengths of time.
Starting pitching – Needed (or so I see it.) Obviously, Josh Beckett, Roy Halladay, Eric Bedard, Justin Duchscherer, Rich Harden, Tim Hudson, Cliff Lee, Brett Myers, John Lackey, Kelvim Escobar (?), Brandon Webb, Carl Pavano, and Brad Penny (some of these with options) all jump out at me. I think I probably missed a name or two there, even. Stud class of pitchers (if all reach FA) out there.
by stlfan on Jun 17, 2009 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm a little confused by this line...
I don’t think it’s needed because we should have injuries to Mather, Craig, Wallace, and Freese next year.
And the starting pitcher thing has me wondering where Garcia is at on his recovery…shouldn’t he be throwing by now? While we’re at it I want full injury updates!!
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 17, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
last i heard, garcia is doing very well with his rehab. I've heard of no setbacks.
by the end of ST he was doing long toss and throwing off a mound. i believe he’s down at jupiter with the extended ST crowd. but i’ve heard nothing but progress there.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 17, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hadn't even heard he was throwing...
any chance he’ll be pitching this season? He could be a HUGE part of 2010 IMO.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 17, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe September
but he is a very important player for their future, so they won’t rush him back.
by ultimatecardinalfan on Jun 17, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
I don’t see O-Cab being much help: He’s in his decline phase, his defense hasn’t been very good this year compared to his past years, and his bat has been horrible. I think we’d get better production from Ryan/T.Greene at a far cheaper cost.
The real issue that I see is that there are no true leadoff hitters listed anywhere in that list, and that is what this club desperately needs. With a leadoff hitter at a middle infield position, we can move Skip out of our lineup once and for all. This is why a guy like Ray Durham intrigues me as a mid-season pickup: He’s a switch-hitter who can lead off and play second base, and he’s had very good on-base ability for the majority of his career. Sure, he isn’t stealing bases like he used to, but he’s a useful player just by getting on base and playing near league-average defense at the keystone.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 17, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was pretty disgusted we didn't get Durham in the spring
If we miss the post season by two wins at the end of 2009, we’ll know that spending $4m or whatever on Durham would’ve got us there. That’s pretty galling.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How long would it take for him to get into game shape?
Any idea what he has been doing? Same for Grudz for that matter.
by nybirdfan on Jun 17, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to have Mike Cameron
probably one of the most underrated players in baseball in the last decade. Cameron, Rasmus, Ludwick would be an awesome OF. That said, I’m not 100% sure we really need an outfielder. I’d probably rather get a good, short-term 2B option, run a LF platoon, and spend any cash we have left on pitching.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Winn could be a good short-term bandaid too
and potential lead-off guy. Presumably at 35 he’d take a one-year deal? Most of the big names on the OF list don’t look too appealling – I hope we stay WELL away from the likes of Vladdy, Magglio etc.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I likek Cameron, too,
but I’m not sure how many more potential career-ending, death-defying injuries I want to see.
"If I prepare myself, my stuff is good and I'm going to get outs. That is a fact." - Chris Carpenter
by spants on Jun 17, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay isn't a FA
but he will have 1 year left on his deal. Webb has an 8mill option, which the D-backs will renew unless they find a suitor for him.
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
by Taskmaster on Jun 17, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing they pick up the option
not sure he’s likely to pitch again much this year. They’ll probably see how they’re doing in about 12 months and, if they’re as far back as they are this season, deal him for a nice haul of prospects. He’s a pitcher I’d absolutely love to have on our staff, but I don’t think we can afford the prospects or the salary. Still, behind Halladay, I’d think he’s about the perfect pitcher for us.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i've said this before, but if webb comes our way, i think the way we lure him
as a mid-market team who won’t compete on salary grounds is to have a superlative infield defense (like a ryan-t.greene 2b/ss combo) and say, hey, you come play for us, you’ll be a cy young candidate every year, b/c we’ll keep your ERA down w/ defense. how he has performed so well as a pitch-to-contact GB pitcher with the appalling AZ infield defense continues to amaze.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 17, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
drew is a very good defender
and he had hudson for long time
by cardsforever on Jun 18, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
drew is not a very good defender.
last season he had a -14 UZR/150. that’s not just bad, that’s awful. in fact, that made him the worst fielder out of all qualified shortstops last year.
hudson’s defense slid in his later years. hudson hasn’t been a good defender for a while. he was around average for two years in arizona, then had a terrible year defensively last year.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 18, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We certainly
have a lot of waiting and seeing to do before we look to fill in with FA’s. With that said why not offer arb to Glaus if he has a productive aug-sept. This will cover Wallace who is currently struggling a AAA.
Go with TG and Ryan up the middle, and if our outfield doesn’t get it together offensively look to pick up a guy like Naddy. Ankiel I think will be gone, and Naddy, Rasmus, and Ludwick would be cost effective. Duncan and Skip would be on the bench.
If ludwick continues to struggle I wouldn’t mind a 1y/5m deal for Abreu. I would love to have a .398 obp in the 2 hole. Hell why not have him lead off. He is has15 steals and only been caught once. If Ludwick finds his stick have Abreu play left.
I would hope that if there was money to be spent it would be for starting pitching. Another big gun would be nice.
by nybirdfan on Jun 17, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the season abreu's having, he'll cost more than $5m next year...
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 17, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
just another typical Abreu kinda year, but is HR totals seam a little low.
by nybirdfan on Jun 17, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he'd also be better off DHing somewhere, probably
he’s a pretty appalling right fielder these days.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 5:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
#1 We Need A Starting Pitcher
IMO durable, quality pitching is a bigger priority than a bat or a leadoff man.
by thepainguy on Jun 17, 2009 4:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Our Staff is doing just fine
They just don’t have the hitting to support him
Look at it this way. When the Yankees began the season without A-rod, Teixeira was off to a miserable start, as he was seeing breaking balls and that was it, because he didn’t have a proven bat behind him. When A-rod came back from injury, Teixeira’s numbers jumped up so fast that he became a top 5 hitter. Coincidence?
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
by Taskmaster on Jun 17, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
It’s been proven that lineup protection has almost no effect on performance. But I still agree with you, a hitter looks better right now.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 17, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right now, yep
but next year, we have Waino, Carp (still an injury question mark), Lohse, and ??? to fill the rotation. If there’s any chance of getting a good-value pitcher this year (I know we’ve mentioned plenty of them in the past) I think it helps us going forward.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The market is pretty decent for starting pitchers next year
Harden and Bedard are your high risk, high reward type guys. They will cost a lot and they have injury histories, however, they are amazing pitchers when healthy. Then you have guys like Padilla and Myers, who IMO, could be very servicable once they leave their extremely hitter-friendly ball parks. Those guys would come cheap-ish, and would be pretty predictable in terms of performance- low 4’s FIP and 200 innings, about 3-4 WAR.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 5:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really, really don't want Brett Myers
that’s partly a personal thing and partly a baseball thing. But I’d pretty much rather have anyone but him.
Padilla doesn’t really fill me with much confidence either but for <$4m he could possibly be a decent fill-in 5th arm. I’m not convinced he’s more than a 2-win pitcher, if that, even outside of Arlington. tRA has him as pretty much replacement level (<1 win) for the most recent seasons, FIP has him being above average only once in the last 5 seasons. Also, he’s only reached 200 innings once in those 5 years. He’s walked almost as many as he’s struck out this year. Padilla = Todd Wellemeyer, at best, IMO. Really, I’d be just as happy to have one of pinata or welly back.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok Padilla sucks, but what's wrong with Myers?
His main flaw as a pitcher has been a propensity to give up homers. His HR/FB has hovered around 15% in each year of his career, however that is likely due to his home ballpark. His xFIP’s for the last 5 years:
3.49
3.89
3.31
4.01
4.36
Pretty damn good numbers. He is also only 29 and has been amazing durable for his career. I fail to see the hate.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is an asshole, basically
like I said it’s mostly a personal thing. Always disliked him. He’s decent as a pitcher, I suppose he’d probably be our #3, just ahead of Lohse, and we’d have a pretty solid rotation. It sort of depends how much he wants, and for how long.
His K rate has been declining the last two years, but I guess he’s still pretty good. I think the whole wife-beating and generally being a douchebag thing puts me off him.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Phillies seem to have a lot of douchebags...
http://jeffpearlman.com/?p=1817
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"It's the perfect place if you're a douchebag"....
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 20, 2009 5:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't we already go down the road of asshole pitchers
with Sidney Ponson? I fail to see the need to bring in another prick like Myers when he could blow up again.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 18, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't buy that
Myers is very good pitcher, unlike Ponson, who will almost certainy had for under market value. I doubt his douchbagginess will get in the way of his production at all.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but Myers perennial inconsistency probably will.
Myers got bumped out of the rotation (in 2006?) because he was stinking up the joint. He did okay as closer. He’s going through a comparable period of haplessness right now. He reminds me too much of Marquis in terms of consistency. Pass.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 18, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see the xFIP's I posted?
Myers has ranged from excellent to above average in almost every year he has been in the majors. He may be inconsistent throughout the year, but there is absolutely no evidence that being consistent is more beneficial than being streaky, yet equally good. Also, Myers has been amazingly durable and at 29 years old, likely won’t decline too much during the life of his contract.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of those years, he only pitched 68 innings, primarily in
relief.
i see that he could improve somewhat by moving to busch, but i’m just mistrustful.
his FB speed has dropped over the last three years as well: 92.1, 90.1, 89.1.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 18, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still, he's at least a 3 WAR player going forward
and he is durable and likely would be cheap.
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he might be cheap-ish
but I dunno, he’s a “name” brand player, some GMs still buy high on those guys. I’m sure there’ll be a market for him, although I guess the strong SP free agent market might depress his price somewhat.
I think he might stay in philly actually.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 19, 2009 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless we have two rookies
in the rotation, they will need to get a FA starter. THey will probably give a starting spot to a rookie, but no more than that if LaRussa is managing. I would like them to get a lefty like Bedard or Lee, but Jaime Garcia could be that lefty starter if he comes back next year. I think that a good fit would be Duchscherer. He would be cheap since he is coming off elbow surgery, and he is a non-overpowering pitch to contact pitcher who would work well with Duncan and has ace potential. I would also take a chance on Tim Hudson, also coming off elbow surgery. Elbow surgery has had much better results than shoulder surgery. Some are even better after coming off elbow surgery, and I would take a chance on ace-type pitchers coming off elbow surgery.
by ultimatecardinalfan on Jun 17, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Duchscherer
and I’d be happy to take a chance on him for a one-year deal. Maybe $7m or so would get it done.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 5:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like him too
the arm injury really worries me though. I he could be had on the cheap I think he’s a good addition.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 18, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Sheets anyone?
couldn’t resist—guilty pleasure.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Jun 18, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubbies get Pedro
I’d take a flyer on Big Ben. Heck, I’d do it even if Pedro doesn’t sign with the Cubs
Proud sponsor of the Official 2009 StL Cardinal theme song: Reason to Believe
by gocards62 on Jun 18, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubbies get Pedro
That’s better than them trading for a better starting pitcher — and he’s likely to be worse than someone already in their rotation.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 18, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wtf? leave alone the question of why ANYONE would want pedro, why would the cubbies
want him? the cubs are probably in the best position of anyone to trade AWAY some starting pitching, not to sign on for a has-been. the cubs desperately need offense, a third baseman and maybe a serious outfield contender.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 18, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aramis is back from injury yeah?
He was also an allstar last year, they won’t trade for a 3rd baseman.
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
by Taskmaster on Jun 18, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no. he's not back until after the ASB.
if you look on the BCB page, they have a rec’d fanpost saying “Be the GM. Trade Harden for a Bat.”
FWIW, they also have one entitled “Aaron Miles is a Waste of Space.”
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 18, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and here i thought i would never have anything in common with them
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
by gdm426 on Jun 18, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet...
there are tons of rumors out there about him going to the Cubs. Go figure.
I totally agree with you, but we’re talking Jim Hendry (2008 GM of the Year) here. Anything is possible.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 18, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about...
ok first about 30 mil is coming off payroll this winter and we lowered payroll by 10 mil this year
so if things get better we should have 40 mil to toy with
well… payrolls of a few players will start to go up (wainwright) so not as much
more like 30 mil
pitching wise i think we are set in the bullpen if we resign our players and if we dont they are replaceable
in the starting staff we will probably have a rookie take over the 5th spot and all we will need for the 4 just a reliable veteran. we could sign someone with ace potential like Duchscherer or just resign pinero or wellemeyer but only if they will go cheap.
needs by positon:
catcher: possible need of a backup, but larue has done god
first: no needs
second: at least an excellent defender like thurston or ryan if we have no other options. figgins or derosa would be good
short stop: i like t. greene or b. ryan. very good defenders. average offensive infielders
third base: possible resign of glaus (he likes playing here a lot, and he might take a big discount for missing so far an entire season), figgins, or adrian beltre (much better away from home, great defender, probably worth as much as glaus last year)
center field: rasmus rasmus rasmus
left field: we need a power right handed bat .. how bout holliday. we got the money. and pujols is in his prime we have to take advantage of it now even if it might hurt the team a little 5 years from now
right field: we could keep ludwick, put skip back in the outfield, or resign ankiel and put him there. any of them would work for the team
potential lineups:
3b figgins
ss ryan/t. greene
1b pujols
lf holliday
cf rasmus
rf ludwick
2b thurston/ ryan/ skip
c molina
pitcher
rf skip
ss ryan
1b pujols
lf holliday
cf rasmus
3b beltre
2b derosa
c molina
pitcher
by cardsforever on Jun 18, 2009 1:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ok first about 30 mil is coming off payroll this winter and we lowered payroll by 10 mil this year
so if things get better we should have 40 mil to toy with
The organisation have shown no inclination to raise payroll over the ~$90m it is now, and I don’t really see it happening next year either.
Also, we’re due to pay out over $10m in arbitration raises, bonuses etc. We really don’t have anywhere near as much as you think next year. We’ve probably got $15-20m to spend, and we need at least one middle infielder, at least one starting pitcher, one left-handed reliever, and possibly either a 3B or an outfielder.
In no universe do we have the money to get Matt Holliday as a free agent. He will likely cost $15m+ which basically spends our entire budget, so we’re starting two, possibly three, crappy rookies in the rotation, hoping that Wallace can be a major league 3B 18 months after he was drafted, playing Schu and the Ryan/T Greene/Barden/Thurston group in the middle infield, and finding another left-handed reliever internally or on the scrapheap.
And a team containing Holliday, Beltre AND DeRosa next year would probably cost us upwards of $40m in free agent contracts before you even start filling the other gaps in the team; ain’t gonna happen. Also, what’s happened to Ludwick in scenario 2?
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 5:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
realistically
we’re probably looking at grabbing a cheap, scrapheap starter (Wellemeyer or someone similarly uninspiring), and a decent middle infielder or 3B somewhere, or we’re looking at spending most of the money on a starter (not likely one of the real top ones, but an OK-ish one like Duchscherer or Penny or someone) and then going cheap on a SS and maybe filling third base internally.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 5:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm starting to wonder if we do go on the market for an SS.
the market, first of all, is TERRIBLE. the big names are all guys past their primes (tejada, wilson).
tyler greene is starting to put it together, has great defense, and has a fringey bat which could improve over the season. same with brendan ryan.
compare them to their comps on the market. cabrera was worth -11 runs on offense and 14 on defense in 08. tejada was worth – 7.5 runs on offense and 9.3 runs on defense. we can get a crappy hitter (.315 wOBA) with good defense (10 to +15 runs) from our own ranks.
now, tejada’s defense is falling off a cliff — last year seemed to be an outlier — but his offense isn’t as bad as last year’s. still, i don’t see us getting him. and cabrera’s offense is falling off a cliff — hes got a wOBA around .250 right now.
we’d really have to make a trade to do better than whoever wins the tyler greene/brendan ryan derby at SS.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 18, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree
Plus, I really like watching those two guys play. I’ve always been a Boog fan, and he’s finally looking like the player I thought he’d be coming out of ST last year, and Greene has so much upside, you almost have to give him a shot.
I bet we could bring Glaus back for a cheap incentive deal, which might be the best way to go if Wallace doesn’t start killing AAA.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
by SleepyCA on Jun 18, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really love T greene
so how bad does his offense have to be to keep him from being a starting SS? I would think it would have to be far worse than what he is showing right now.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Jun 18, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
both these guys are better at the plate
that Izz2 and bring the same glove
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by gocards62 on Jun 18, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunno
I’m guessing he’s a 1-win player with the glove (i.e. 10 runs above average for a shortstop) – it’s pretty hard to be that good, but some guys manage to (and even exceed it). Izturis probably isn’t that good, but guys like Jason Bartlett may be, and guys like Nick Punto and Adam Everett are actually quite a bit better. I think Greene’s arm is better than Izzy2, and he might be a bit more athletic going forward, too. I REALLY like his glove.
If he’s a 10-run above average SS, he can hit at replacement level and be a nearly average shortstop. Problem is, so far he’s hitting a tiny bit above replacement (not much) and is projected by ZiPS to be a replacement-level hitter going forward. So his glove REALLY needs to be that good if he’s to stick as a major league player.
I like Greene too but we’re probably fooling ourselves if we think he’s going to be much more than mediocre as a major league shortstop. Nothing he’s done in the minors particularly suggests he’s suddenly going to learn better plate discipline at the age of 26 (although I grant you his AAA stats have been a lot more encouraging this year). If we’re content to save money at SS and play a mediocre player there who might end up being about average or just above, that’s pretty reasonable I think. A 2-win player for free is good value.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really understand your conclusion
If you really believe that Greene is +10 shortstop (and I’m inclined to agree with you on that), he would need to be -17.5 runs on offense to be average. -17.5 runs over a full season is equivalent to about a .295 wOBA. Do you really think he won’t be able to exceed that mark as a major league hitter?
St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/
by vivaelpujols on Jun 18, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ZiPS has him projected as a .290 wOBA hitter going forward
i.e. worse than that. I’ve seen nothing in his hitting or his minor league numbers to particularly suggest he’s suddenly going to break out and be better than advertised. He’s still whiffing at the sort of unacceptable rate he had in the high minors, and he’s walking less than 4% of the time. If he’s even to hit his replacement-level ZiPS projection he’s going to have to walk more than that. I also don’t see his .346 BABIP persisting.
Also, I think once the book’s out on him (he swings at 35% of pitches out of the zone, compared to the 25% MLB average – that’s absolutely HUGELY indisciplined) pitchers are going to adjust and never give him anything decent in the zone to hit – they’ll paint the corners and pitch outside, and he’ll continue to whiff, whiff, whiff, as he’s done his whole career. He has a LD% of 16%, not that that necessarily means anything yet.
No, I do not think he is particularly likely to dramatically exceed the .295 wOBA mark as a major leaguer, and I don’t see anything in his stats, peripherals, performance so far (other than an unsustainable BABIP), or his minor league record (especially given he’s nearly 26) to suggest that some sort of upswing in his hitting performance is going to manifest itself. It’s possible, and it wouldn’t massively surprise me, but I’m afraid the odds seem to suggest to me that a .295 wOBA is about right for Greene.
Other than an absolutely unsustainable .270 batting average, and a couple of extra base hits, I just don’t see why everyone is getting excited about Greene’s bat. He’s more or less replacement-level hitter, and likely to remain so, as far as I can see.
IF he has as good a glove as advertised, he might make a career for himself as a Nick Punto type, but I just don’t see where his offensive production is going to come from, at all.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 19, 2009 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had no idea T. Greene was that old
I kinda got my hopes up just a little. MO and others had been dropping little quotes over the off-season about how Tyler was “starting to show signs of putting something together” and other vague things like that. It was probably wishful thinking—gee, it sure would be nice if this high draft pick amounted to something. We’ll have to see, but the picture you paint as well as my own observations make me dubious.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 19, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he might amount to an average shortstop
for the league minimum, taking his glove into account. That’s something, and, given the rate at which prospects flame out, it’s probably not bad really for a first rounder. Better than what we got out of Chris Lambert anyhow (i.e. about one crappy month of Mike Maroth). It seems like our fifth rounder this year (Ryan Jackson? I think his name is) profiles to a very similar player – MLB-ready glove right now at SS, but unlikely to hit much. Kozma might end up being similar but I think he’s got more upside in his bat. So Tyler might get squeezed out in 2 years anyhow.
I just think anyone expecting TG to be a sure-fire major league starter for the next 6 years (or significantly better than, say, Izturis or Ryan) is going to be disappointed.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 19, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't need all star bats throughout the lineup
a replacement level bat combined with gold glove fielding at shortstop is extremely valuable to a Duncan coached team. Much more valuable then a weak glove/great bat.
My point is that picking and choosing where you go for the all star players is important because only a few teams (NYY,NYM,LAA,Boston) have the luxury of being able to throw money around to get an all star at every position.
by ubeddie on Jun 21, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right now we have $50 mil commited for next season
$16M Pujols
$14.5M Carpenter
$9.19M Lohse
$4.31M Molina
$4.84M Wainwright
$2M Reyes
Franklin has a $2.75M option that will be picked up
Ludwick $3.7M, Duncan $.825M and Thompson $.650M all enter their 2nd year of arb, but I don’t see any as likely to receive much of a raise at this point. 2009 = $5.175 2010 = $6M?
Schumaker will enter his first year of arb. $1M?
Kinney could enter 1st year of arb. $.5M – one of he and Thompson should be non-tendered, so I’m not counting Kinney.
That’s $59.59M committed to 11 players with 1B, 3 SP, C, RF, LF, 1RHRP, LHRP, 2B? and CL spots filled up.
The rest of the roster (SS, CF, LHRP, 2RHRP, 1OF, 1CIF/OF, 3B, 2MIF, C, 2SP) will be prearb or free agents. We can assume that Ryan, Rasmus, Motte, Perez, and McClellan will all be on the team. One of the SP’s should be a rookie. At .5M a piece that adds $3M to bring the total to $62.59M. If we’re going to have a $90M payroll we have $27M to spend on (OF, C, LHRP, CIF/OF, 3B, 2MIF and 1SP). The OF, CIF/OF, and 2MIF, should be filled internally ($2M). The C and LHRP spot could be filled internally or for less than $2M each ($3M). That brings us to $67.59M leaving $22M to spend on a SP and/or 3B.
We may be better served to demote Duncan to 4TH OFer and sign a FA for LF.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 18, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dammit make that...
3RHRP that need to be filled, but that would be Motte, Perez and McClellan. So change the $3M there to $3.5M leaving $21.5 – $22M to spend.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Jun 18, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm I thought it was more than that
fourstick posted something to that effect before. I think we still possibly owe something to someone we got rid of in the past (might be rolen or something), and I wonder if we might not have a couple of buyout to pay here and there.
Also, I think Schu will get closer to $2m, and Ludwick, Dunc & Thompson (if they all stay) will get a lot more than an $800,000 raise between them. Dunc got the tiny contract based on his lack of health – just a healthy year will give him a couple of million, probably, and Ludwick will probably shoot up over $5m. Kinney needs to be kept, and I’m not sure we should non-tender Thompson unless we’ve got major 40-man concerns.
So, yeah somewhere in the $15-20m ballpark for filling whichever spots we need to fill – one is a starting pitcher, for sure, and I’d like to find a 2B and/or a 3B. Realistically, we’re not getting stars for that sort of money. The other difficult thing is that with Carp and a rookie in the rotation, arguably we need to get a reliable SP (rather than an injury re-tread).
Unless payroll goes up (which they’ve shown no inclination to do) I’m afraid we’re probably stuck with a fairly mediocre/average-ish team for the next two years, with Albert at his peak. Sigh.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And this is all assuming they don't LOWER the payroll
everyone thought we had $100m+ to spend this year. Nuh-uh. And some of the rumours (take them for what they are, I guess, just rumours) on mlbtr and other sources have said the Cards may not have any money to make any additions next year. Could we be an $80m payroll team next year? That would mean a cheap rental-type SP (Padilla or someone similarly garbagey), a bunch of rookies, and maybe a mediocre 3B or OF addition. No impact bats, and no high or even mid-level free agents.
Anyone wanting Holliday, or a trade for Roy Halliday, or Jake Peavy, etc etc etc, are not living in the real world IMO – we aren’t signing any big name players next year, or likely the year after.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did a payroll matrix in a comment a couple months back
I’m also working on another one right now. That was when Ludwick and Duncan looked like .900 OPS players again and would be getting significant raises. I still think that they’ll get a larger increase than what has been presented here, remember that we still have nearly 3/5 of a season to play yet.
Something else that wasn’t presented is that the club may choose to buy out Rasmus’ arby years, depending on how he finishes up this season. If he goes on a .900 OPS tear for a 6 week period at some point in the next couple of months I think that would be a good idea — lock him up now on the cheap before he becomes expensive in arbitration.
We’re also not factoring in offering Ankiel arbitration, which may actually happen. He’d probably accept and we’d pay him about what he’s making this season or a little bit more instead of shopping in free agency. I groan at the thought of this unless he really begins to show some of the promise of last spring at the plate at some point during the next 3 months. Glaus could also be offered arby and accept. While we’d have less to shop for, we’d have more money on the books.
AFAIK, we have no buyout money on the books next year — Mulder’s and Speezer’s were all paid this year and if we pick up Franklin’s option we shouldn’t have any payouts for 2010.
I’m working on a trade topic Fanpost that includes this info, I’ll have it up sometime in the next couple of days.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 18, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you think they'd negotiate colby's arb years without at least approaching albert about
his contract? if i’m mo, i’d try to nail down that big fish before i looked at colby — there’s a lot of flexibility in setting up that kind of contract a la pedroia/longoria.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 18, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That could be..
but locking up Rasmus, along with what they did with Molina and WW does help to show the big guy the organization’s commitment to winning. FWIW, they might be able to lock up Colby’s arb years for around $5-$10M more than we’ll be paying Albert for the 2012 season with his new contract.
I’d focus on putting the pieces in place first and then say “Hey, we’ve built a contender around you, we want to pay you, but we’d like to defer some of it so we have some money to add a player or two if we need to.” I think that’s about the best way of negotiating with Albert.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 18, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colby's gonna be a 5 win player in 3 or 4 years
realistically, Albert will, by that time, be on the downward phase of his career and may only be a 4 or 5 win player. I’d rather be wrapping Colby up for $8m/yr in that period than spending $20m+ on Albert.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
did downward phase of albert pujol's career
feel weird to type? it felt weird to read.
cardinals are the things with feathers that perch within the soul.
by ilrosso on Jun 21, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
locking up colby
is as big of a priority as locking up albert.
a large percentage of the demand to lock up albert is for sentimental reasons. i want to see him retire as a cardinal even if that means being pissed of him in the 2019 season because he’s hitting .213 and making 23mil
but when that’s happening colby will be an all star, a gold glover, possibly carrying this team. and who knows, maybe sporting an mvp
lock the kid up. now
by prophetjohn on Jun 18, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday price tag
From all that i’ve been hearing via espn or mlbtr states that jason bay is the hot ticket outfielder and MAY make 15 million a year. With the recession and all that comes with it, I would not be surprised if Holliday costs somewhere around 12/13 million a year for 4-5 years, I personally would jump at him for a 4 year 50 mil. deal.
by thenextgen on Jun 18, 2009 11:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He'll get more than 4/50
Heck, AJ Burnett got more than that, from the Yankees, and Holliday’s a better player who will likely be courted by at least 4 or 5 suitors. No way he falls for that price. I’m thinking he’ll be wanting a 6 or 7 year deal, minimum, and $15m per. Maybe something like 7/$100m gets it done. 6/80, something like that.
If we pay Holliday we’ll have to fill our other needs (3B, 2B, SP) entirely internally, so we’ll have a couple of pretty huge holes….
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both the Yankees and the Red Sox will need an outfielder
The Red Sox and Yankees will pursue Bay, and whichever doesn’t get Bay, will get Holliday, simple.
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
by Taskmaster on Jun 18, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Bay'll stay in Boston
the fans like him there and I think there’ll be pressure for them to sign him to a 5-year deal. Holliday probably ends up in pinstripes, yeah.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 18, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see them doing a 5 year deal for Bay,
or any five year deal for any player for that matter. If you look at what Boston’s done with it’s payroll since Theo took over full time, outside of two players (Dice-K, which was a pretty decent deal at the time given starting pitching prices, and JD Drew, who has a ton of performance and non-injury clauses in this contract) they haven’t signed any free agent to a deal longer than 4 years. They bought out the arb years for Pedroia, Youkilis, and Lester and have been going year to year with Papelbon.
Two long term contracts have really burned them: Julio Lugo and David Ortiz. Lugo for obvious reasons (he can’t even beat out Nick Green and has been hurt a ton), and Ortiz will cost them $25M over the next two seasons (and he looks finished) and essentially prevented them from getting Mark Teixeira last offseason. You could also make the case that the Dice-K contract could be a bad one since they’re on the hook for three more years and his performance this year has been sub-par.
They don’t spend willy-nilly like the Yankees — look at their payroll the last 8 years or so: They’ve won two titles and haven’t been within sniffing distance of the Yankees payroll that entire time. I think a lot of that has to do with keeping contracts to around 3-4 years so you don’t get burnt paying a player huge $$$ in his decline phase (Papi notwithstanding), and buying out arbitration years for your own players so you can control costs and have payroll flexibility going forward.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they let Bay walk if he wants a contract 5 years or longer — they’ll go out and look for a left fielder that they can get for more $$$ per year with fewer years, which I think is a very smart way to run a team.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 19, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still focused on Peavy
Will Carroll intimated that Peavy is done for the year, but with a long term contract, a deal still makes sense. I think you might be able to get him for much less now so they can clear some salary his year and we’d still have him for a few years. With Carp showing that he can pitch every fifth day, I’d like to have Capr, Wainwright, Peavy, Lohse and a rookie in the rotation next year.
Gives Albert a reason to re-sign and ensures we have a team that can make a run at theplayoffs for several years. My guess is we could get him without Rasmus or Wallace. Might have to give up Jones and some pitchers.
The argument against Peavy is that we tie up too much money, but even if we sign no more FAs, can we really not make the playoffs with this rotation?
Just win
by The Duke on Jun 18, 2009 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the money issue isn't a concern for this year, but for the years and years after.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 18, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trading for Peavy = Letting Albert walk
it’s really that simple. It’s been covered a million times on VEB by myself and numerous others. The team simply cannot afford them both unless payroll goes up over $110M a level at which it’s never been, even adjusting for inflation, in the history of the ballclub. Either that or you have 5 players making better than $10M per season (Carp, WW, Peavy, Albert, Lohse) and everyone else making near league minimum.
It’s simply not possible to have them both, regardless of what it costs us to pick up Peavy.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 19, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Will Carroll intimated that Peavy is done for the year, but with a long term contract, a deal still makes sense
from where i’m standing, a long-term contract for a pitcher with stats artificially inflated by pitching half his games in PETCO, who’s going to command a huge deal, and who is currently struggling with injury, isn’t a smart idea. He’d also take up our entire free agent budget for next year, so we’d have to fill all our other gaps (MIF, OF, 3B) internally.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 19, 2009 8:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else want to take a flyer on this guy?
Wasn’t he MIF at one point?
According to Cots, one yr. $425K in ‘09. Granted, he’s having a terrible year so far, but he’s a RH bat. Does he have more upside than the others OFs (Craig, Mather) in our system?
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by gocards62 on Jun 19, 2009 9:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's an outfielder and won't ever move back to the infield
and he’s still pretty highly rated. Stumbled a bit this year (again) but it will take something substantial to get him. The Mets traded him for Ryan Church (an MLB-ready OF starter) and Brian Schneider (MLB ready catcher), and I’m not sure how much his stock has dropped since then. He was meant to be a big part of the Nats team this year but he had a bad start to the season and they’ve got a lot of OF options so they sent him down.
He’s still a year or two out from arbitration, I think, and still a pretty good prospect, possibly more ceiling than Craig and Mather and he’s done OK at MLB level in the past, although he might be further down his development curve. He’s more of a free-swinging BA/speed guy than a patient hitter, which, coupled with mediocre contact rates so far, has meant he’s not really put up the OBPs he probably needs to to keep in the majors. He has a bit of power, but he’s not really a power hitter. Bad glove in CF according to UZR, although I have a suspicion he might ultimately have the ability and athleticism to be a + fielder in the corners.
If the Nats have given up he wouldn’t be a bad move, but I think they’d want something for him. HOWEVER, his presence in their system makes Austin Kearns, who’s a better player right now (and who would cost no prospects at all really as he’d be a salary dump), available to us if we want him. He’d be the guy to get for ’09.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 19, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have a similar player in our minor league system
His name is Daryl Jones.
He and Jones are very similar players, with Milledge supposedly having a little more pop that he hasn’t shown at the big league level. I think he’s a guy that Minaya sold high on to acquire two pieces in place of one, and Minaya has shown to be a pretty good judge of talent so far when making trades. None of the prospects that were traded for Santana have really worked out for the Twins yet: Gomez can’t get on base enough or hit and he hasn’t been good defensively, Philip Humber pretty much sucks so far, and Kevin Mulvey is putting up Blake Hawksworth numbers in AAA. Church had a very good year last year and Schneider is a solid defensive catcher who can hit a little bit so it looks like Minaya is winning that trade so far as well.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 19, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
after spotting an item on rotoworld, i've been chewing this over.
has anybody been watching wang’s outings with the yanks this year? because he seems to be at serious risk of being overshadowed by phil hughes and being shifted to the bullpen. i know he was sidelined last year with an injury from running the bases, and hasn’t come back well this year.
still he was a 4-win starter for the yanks in 06, 07, and contributed 2+ wins in just under 100 innings last year before his injury. and that was as a sinkerballer with one of the worst infield defenses behind him. he’s under club control this year (at around $4m for the year) and IIRC has another arb-eligible year.
seems like a good fit — sinkerballer, a little off his game, not a long commit, not too much money, out of favor in his current club and probably redundant there. the yanks needs match up with our assets pretty well. they clearly need bullpen help. not sure what a good comp for him would be, so I’m a bit mystified in constructing a package. perez would be a prime target; they might have interest in anderson, given how posada is aging. we probably need something else in there. unfortunately, ankiel’s trade value is pretty low right now.
the other side of the trade that i like is one which may make the trade hard. wang is one of the only Chinese players (maybe the only?) in MLB. if the club is serious about expanding its international presence, that could be a route to start recruiting players and selling the Cardinals brand in China. if you can rehab Wang (and if anyone can, Dave Duncan can), you could make this a profitable endeavor. that factor, unfortunately, probably makes the trade harder, since the Yankees surely know that as well. but if they’re going to relegate him to a low-profile bullpen role, their marketing angle is weakened.
seems to me that between duncan and a good infield defense, wang could be a great pitcher in STL, and well worth the wellemeyer-like dollars.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Jun 19, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd be interested
BABIP this year is .458. His ERA is over 12 but his FIP is only over 6 (heh). It’s weird how hittable he is now, and I expect that to not continue forever. He’s still under 30, which I didn’t realize. He’s actually striking out more batters than ever, but also walking more. I wonder what it might take to get him? He’s on a one-year deal right now, he’d be a nice pitcher to have if he can straighten things out.
Also, I think technically he’s from Taiwan? (Or as they like to think of themselves, “China.” What’s this “People’s Republic” thing all about, anyway?) The whole international talent market thing is exciting and it’s neat to see one’s team take steps in those areas. It seems like the Cardinals aren’t to active in Japan, Korea, or Taiwan, so that could be a cool way to make some noise.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 19, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I just noticed this
His ground ball % has steadily decreased year after year in the bigs, while his line drive % has done the opposite. That’s kind of striking. Maybe the league just continues to figure him out and he’s not adjusting, I dunno. Kinda weird. Still, it’d be an interesting risk to take.
There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".
by mattybobo on Jun 19, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wang is terrible
I think on most measures he may be the worst pitcher in a major league uniform. So if the argument is that you get him and stuff him in AAA to fix whatever ails him, I’m all for it. To put him in our rotation would be Kip Wells cruel.
I think his BABIP is high because he is throwing like one of the old-timers in those all-star games. We could all have a passable chance of hitting a dinger off of him if given the chance.
He and Dontrelle would be good projects if you didn’t have to give up much but no way are they ML ready. I have expect they will both be cut loose before the end of the season.
Just win
by The Duke on Jun 19, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
Dontrelle has sucked for pushing three years now. Wang’s been highly effective up until this year. I think there’s some element of difference there. I have a lot more confidence that Wang will be fixable; I think Dontrelle’s finished, whereas it could be a more simple problem with Wang.
People (fans, I mean) give up on major league pitchers too easily – it’s not an easy job and there’s not much margin for error.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 20, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dontrelle's a lefty
Mos of them seem to be fragile (ankiel, anyone). For some reason lefties seem to have a harder time staying in sync. So, if he can be fixed, he probably has more upside, but I agree, he’s been awful for a long while. Wang is a strange case — I’ve seen him pitch a few times this year — just getting clobbered.
Just win
by The Duke on Jun 20, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno if there's any evidence that lefties get the yips/have a career downturn at some point more so than righties
If there is I’m sure it’d be more common knowledge because the evidence of career downturns would be pretty clear when you went back through history and examined the careers of LHPs vs RHPs…
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Jun 22, 2009 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this thread has hit two of the guys I'm most curious about....
in Wang and Figgins.
I love Figgins as a player and am curious what he’ll command on the market. I’d probably look up comparables, but unless there is a major shift in the economic climate, I’m not sure how accurate any discussion of comparable past signings would be.
Wang is the exact type of guy we usually go after, but seemingly cheaper and with more upside if he could return to previous form.
by mtalken on Jul 9, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chone Figgins....
is one of my favorite players to trade for in every baseball video game.
We definitely need to get him.
by mtalken on Jul 9, 2009 9:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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