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The College Pitcher Phallacy

I have read many articles on this subject that argue pretty forcefully that it is a bad idea to draft a high school pitcher in the first round.  Various reasons are given for this view including that HS pitchers are less likely to make it to the big leagues, the “higher upside” theory is a myth, college pitchers will get to the big leagues faster, etc.  Many of these articles are well done and offer significant data to support the opinions expressed in them.  

 

A trend I have seen in articles by erik at futureredbirds (link) and others is to evaluate the HS and college pitchers in the aggregate using wins above replacement (WAR) during the years that pitchers are under team control.  I agree that WAR is a fine yardstick, but I have issues with only evaluating the years a team has a pitcher under control.  This gives a natural advantage to the college pitchers as they are typically older and more mature when they reach the league.   Furthermore, it is only a valid way to analyze the value of the respective classes if you are a franchise that has no chance to retain the drafted player.  

Being a Cardinals fan, I hope ownership and management will make an effort to retain their best players.  I certainly think we have a much better chance of signing a premium pitcher that we develop than one that is available on the free agent market.  I mean, when was the last time we signed a premium FA pitcher off the free agent market?   I am pretty sure the correct answer is NEVER.  Nevertheless, I remain hopeful that Wainer will remain a both a top tier pitcher and a Cardinal beyond his existing contract.  We already have him signed to a below market contract that bought out one of his free agent years with club options for two additional years.

I prefer to look at the first round draft pick as an opportunity to acquire an elite player whether it be a pitcher or a position player.  That being said, it only makes sense to attempt to figure out where the elite pitchers actually come from.  Given the preponderance of opinions that college pitchers are safer bets and offer equal or better upside one would think the data would support that conclusion.  From the perspective I have chosen, it appears not to be the case. 

Last year I researched this question and posted my findings (link) that the best pitchers are more than twice as likely to have been drafted and signed out of High School (55%) as from college (24%).  I thought it would be a good time to review the data from a slightly different perspective than before.  In the 2008 article I looked at all active pitchers with over 1000 IPs who had ERA+ ratings of 110 or better.   I thought that was a good approach because the data was easy to find at b-r and was both park and league adjusted.  Unfortunately, I don’t think I can find similar data at b-r without a subscription, so I decided to look at fangraphs and use the top 35 pitchers in terms of WAR over the last three seasons.  I would have preferred a longer window, but it seems three years is the largest one I can select. 

The data don’t really look much different from this perspective.  There are essentially three ways for pitchers to enter the MLB system:  1) drafted from HS; 2) drafted from college; and 3) amateur free agents (mostly international players).  Of the top 35 pitchers over the last three years as determined by WAR, 18 (51.4%) were drafted from high school, 10 (28.6%) were drafted from college, and the remaining 7 (20%) were signed as amateur free agents.  This is in spite of the fact that over the last twenty drafts MLB teams have taken 59 more college pitchers in the first round than HS pitchers.  In 19 of the last 20 drafts there were at least as many college pitchers taken as HS pitchers, and in 17 of the last 20 there were more college pitchers taken.  Overall, 60% of the pitchers taken in the first round have been from college with 67% having been college picks in the last five drafts.  Since some of the HS pitchers taken have elected not to sign, the ratio of college picks to HS picks is probably somewhat higher.

Of those 28 that were actually drafted players, 10 were drafted in the first round.  Seven of these were drafted from HS and three were from college.  The HS 1st round draftees were: 

C.C Sabathia

Roy Halladay

Scott Kazmir

Cole Hamel

Matt Cain

Gil Meche

Josh Beckett. 

Interestingly enough, six of the seven HS picks were drafted with the 15th pick or later when the Cardinals are more likely to be drafting.  Most years the majority of the early picks spent on pitchers are on those from college.  The college picks were:

Mike Mussina

Justin Verlander

Jeff Francis. 

I don’t have a problem with drafting college pitchers in general, but I don’t think it is correct to say they are a better investment.  If your goal is to draft a top of the rotation type starter in the first round (what other reason could a team possibly have for drafting a pitcher in the first round?) it sure seems likely you will have better success by drafting a HS pitcher.   However, if you want to have a system that is chock full of middle relief prospects like the Cardinals, then keep drafting those safe guys.

 

1 recs  |  Comment 23 comments

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im assuming you meant fallacy?

rather than phallacy? or maybe i should read the article for a joke that im missing?

by longhornscardinals on May 31, 2009 9:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I wish I was clever

but maybe I just have sub-conscious issues or I am spelling challenged.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 31, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

haha

you know you can change that, right?

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 1, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's funnier the origional way

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on Jun 1, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, I agree.

just letting him know

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 1, 2009 4:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

*original

4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Jun 3, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how did you post a FanPost?

SBNation says it isn’t working.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 31, 2009 9:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No magic

I just clicked on new fanpost…

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on May 31, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think we talked about some of this last fall...

… but besides the obvious small sample problems (10 pitchers and three years isn’t much) i think there’s conceptual murkiness here. as i understand them, the previous studies looked at the expected value gained from high school vs. college pitchers drafted in the first round. we can’t know ahead of time who’s going to be C.C. Sabathia or Chris Lambert, so all we can do is look probabilistically at whether it’s a better bet to draft college or HS pitchers drafted in the first round. in other words, we’re looking at mean levels of performance (although i think some studies also compared variance). so a handful of counter-examples doesn’t really disprove anything, nor should it change the approach that teams take when drafting. in fact, there have to be counter-examples because the correlation isn’t 100%. but the only way to get a true picture of this is to look at entire draft classes. if you sample on the dependent variable (by only looking at successful pitchers while trying to figure out what inputs are important for successful pitchers) then you’re going to get biased results.

the evidence that you’ve given could “support” any number of hypotheses that don’t make much sense. for example, 70% of your pitchers pitch in the AL, so does that mean that only AL teams should draft pitchers in the first round? of course not. that’s silly. but your conclusion rests on the same type of supporting evidence. or you could say that 40% are left-handed, while overall only ~ 27% of pitchers are lefties. so teams should only draft lefties in the first round. such an inference would be absurd.

now, things could change over time. if teams know that the expected value of HS pitchers drafted in the first round is lower than the same for college pitchers, and they use that information to draft fewer HS pitchers in the first round, then the results could change. i.e. the only HS pitchers left are they Super-Amazing Prospects like Porcello that have disproportionate success rates. meanwhile, the number of college pitchers goes up, which presumably dilutes the sample. that would skew the data. teams might start thinking that drafting more HS pitchers is the right thing to do. but it isn’t. so to really study the issue properly we would need to control for trends that favor (or disfavor) drafting HS pitchers over time.

by kindred on May 31, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

right.

also, keep in mind that every single college guy was once a high school guy. It’s very unlikely that anyone was ever drafted out of college who wasn’t at least considered after his high school career. So the college talent pool has been already weeded out, once, plus there’s that additional level of academic achievement (however rudimentary) they must achieve for the next 2 years to remain considered. OTOH, if all of MLB stopped drafting high school guys, the college talent pool would certainly get bigger. *

Given that, the clear “holy grail” is to be able to predict, after their junior year of high school, who is going to be “the guy” after his sophomore year of college. And then giving those guys future second-round-level bonuses, or something.

IE, the cardinals’ failure to sign max scherzer after the 2003 draft is well above the failure to draft Porcello, in my list of front office misdeeds. They drafted him in the 43rd round. Who knows what he would have signed for, but given that he signed for $3M in 2006, it’s hard to believe he’d have turned down LOOGY money in 2003.

’* Has anyone ever been drafted who turned down a high school draft and then flunked out of college?

- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc

by SleepyCA on Jun 1, 2009 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In answer to your question...

Has anyone ever been drafted who turned down a high school draft and then flunked out of college?

I know of one. Sam Lecure was drafted in a late round (47th?) out of high school. He decided to go to Texas where he pitched for two seasons and then failed out of school. He was then drafted in the fourth round by the Reds when he was eligible. He’s currently pitching for the AAA Louisville Bats. He’s struggling, but he’s had some success before this year, and I believe he’s on the Reds 40 man roster.

The thought that I have is that the season is over. And that everybody in the game; a fan, a coach, a player, a manager, front office, scouts...surrender. They say, "that's enough," especially after a game like this. But then Christmas comes, New Years, contracts are signed, trades are made, free agents are signed; and then baseball, like the rose beneath the April snow will force it's way to the front again. And we'll have the fever once more.
-Jack

by Jack618 on Jun 1, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

predictability

I think kindred hit the nail on the head – you can’t predict who will and who will not make it, you have to rely on the past to give you an indication of the future. If HS pitchers flair out at twice the rate of college, than that upside has to be twice as high to make it worth the risk. I don’t think that has been demonstrated to be true though.

by cdb on Jun 2, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"you have to rely on the past to give you an indication of the future."

I like that the SABR oriented baseball community seems to get this. There is always the under-the-breath acknowledgment that, just as with science at large, the past is not exactly a perfect indicator of the future, and it is the best one that we currently have. It’s always important to have that realization in the back of our heads that we rely on past data out of necessity, not because it’s perfect.
I think it was Churchill (or maybe Twain or Oscar Wilde) who said, to paraphrase, that democracy is a terribly flawed form of government, and it’s much much better than any other form we’ve yet discovered.

There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".

by mattybobo on Jun 2, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it was Kim Jong-Il

Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 2, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

(I think) I see what you did there.

There's no "I" in team. There's also no "I" in "B-g Mac Land".

by mattybobo on Jun 2, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I feel similarly to kindred about the sample size,

I think the data seems pretty compelling, especially the number of actual picks used in the first round.

It seems to me that it’s possible that since the mantra of “HS pitchers are too risky for the first round, college pitchers are the way to go” has been around since at least the writing of the book Moneyball, it’s possible that this has increased the number of college pitchers picked in the first round, depressing the overall level of talent. Perhaps it’s no longer a truism simply because it was a truism for a bit too long.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on May 31, 2009 11:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i basically said that in my last paragraph...

… and i really wouldn’t be surprised if it were true. but if it were, it would have to be a pretty recent phenomenon, and most of the pitchers cited above have had enough service time to be FAs already, which means they were drafted 7+ years ago (Verlander excepted). hell, one of those guys is retired.

also, even if this IS true, that’s not a reason to start drafting more HS pitchers. if you do that, then you might swing back the other way and confirm the CW.

i’d also worry about the fact that Cain, Hamels, Francis, and Kazmir all came out of the 2002 draft. maybe that one draft class is an outlier, and not really predictive of future drafts. also in that draft was Greinke, Saunders, Guthrie, and Blanton. not all those guys are world-beaters, but that’s an awful lot of SP talent in one round of one draft. maybe that was just a really good draft for HS and college pitchers. there isn’t more than one guy on giveml’s list from any other draft class (although moving forward 2004 could be good if Humber, Hughes, Bailey, and Sowers make anything of themselves; Jered Weaver was also in that class. only Hughes and Bailey were taken out of HS).

by kindred on Jun 1, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would like to see

erik’s study of the 1990-99 draft classes extended beyond the years players were under team control. I think the results would be a little different if the HS guys were compared at the same age level as the college guys.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 1, 2009 8:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

but this is a big issue you don't explain.

why does it matter what draftees do seven, eight years into their careers, if we are considering the question of what value those draftees have to the drafting teams?

of those HS pitchers, how many remained with their home team more than a year or two after they were out of team control?

if we have to fight the other 29 teams in baseball to sign our HS draftee to get full value for his years, then isn’t that a big handicap relative to a college draftee? why not just try to poach other teams HS draftees and get their prime years as FA?

while it’s true that the results would be different if the HS guys were looked at at the same age as the college draftees, that doesn’t reflect the reality of time that pitchers spend under club control. if the rules were that pitchers were under club control until the pitcher’s 28th birthday, drafting a HS pitcher would be a great idea. but those aren’t the rules.

I also am disinclined to buy into a more limited look at three years data on pitchers, when erik looked at ten years worth, also by WAR, and found this:

I researched all the 1st round picks made between 1990-1999. The Top 10 1st round pitchers were Mike Mussina, Barry Zito, Kerry Wood, Roy Halladay, Mark Mulder, CC Sabathia, Matt Morris, Josh Beckett, Ben Sheets and Joey Hamilton, in that order. 6 out of those 10 were drafted out of college.

In a three year span, you are more likely have your sample thrown off – in either direction – by a pitcher who produces tremendously. A Roy Halladay or CC Sabathia in the works is really going to mess with that data. by taking a bigger sample size, erik is less likely to have one or two outliers throwing off the data set.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Jun 1, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

College pitchers - officially phallusy.

Harsh, but true.

Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.

by Felonius_Monk on Jun 2, 2009 8:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll have to reread a few more times

but I’m not saying college pitchers are a good investment, either. Pitchers, in the first round, are usually a bad investment, whether they come from college or high school. It’s just that HS pitchers did worse than college, but the margin isn’t much.

What I’ve found and Victor Wang has found is that hitters are usually the better investment in the first round and then load up on all the pitching you want, either out of high school or college.

Some good examples: Joba Chamberlain was a sandwich pick out of college. Jordan Zimmermann was a 2nd rounder out of a D III college. Jon Lester was a 2nd round pick out of HS. There’s plenty of talent for less investment after the first round from all sorts of places, and it’s not as costly as a 1st round pick, which averaged around $2.5M last year, IIRC.

And I use WAR for the first six years b/c that is when the player is of the most value to his team. There’s nothing wrong with looking at it that way, in my view, b/c while teams take their time with HS arms, it’s not like it counts against their service time and they’ll bring them up when they feel they are ready, just like w/ college P’s.

godfather of futureredbirds.net

by erik on Jun 4, 2009 12:21 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think your analysis makes sense

if the club is pretty much certain they won’t sign any of their own players, but I don’t see how it makes sense if you can cut deals like the Cardinals have with Wainer and Yadi. If Wainwright was still with the Braves, what would the chance be that the Cardinals could have signed him a free agent? Probably pretty close to nil.

I hope they take a hitter as well, but I think they should take the best pitcher available whenever they decide to take one and not overemphasize the value of the college pitcher. I think the only way the “college pitchers are better” argument makes sense for a club is if the GM is afraid he will be replaced before the HS kids can produce.

Is it possible for you to use your dataset and compare based on age? I think the slender margins in value might be due to that as much as anything.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Jun 4, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but again, why bother with that? if you draft a college kid, he's going to be older.

a HS kid is younger. If you’re not going to control the HS kid at age 29, why do we care what he produces at 29?

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Jun 4, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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