coaches and their significance?
On the way to work today at 4 am and thought of Hal Mcrae. Through his tenure as the hitting coach there have been some horendous slumps. I was trying to think if I have noticed whole teams going thorugh droughts the way they have. It has not been just this season. They started the season fine, then there were some injuries to big guns, and the rooks. Those are all factors, but again this is not the first time they have done this.
I'm not calling for anything specific, but at what point do you evaluate. How is a Hitting/pitching coach evaluated. With the ups and downs of a team, and a individuals it is just curious to me. The other thing I wonder is that you often hear of birds getting help on hitting from guys like Walker, or Big Mac and I have heard Hal too.
I'm glad Im not Mo to me it would be difficult to evaluate something like a hitting coach. If the team hits it could be cause of him, if they don't it doesn't nec. mean it's Hals fault either.
Thoughts?
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34 comments
Comments
Personally.....
I don’t think that hitting coaches are much of a factor. They probably help some guys, hurt some guys, and have no impact on others. If you were to fire the current guy, his replacement would likely do the same, only the guys and how he impacts them might change.
"Stats are for losers," Muschamp said after last week's victory. "I like winning games."
by SoonerfanTU on May 26, 2009 9:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Speaking from personal experience
a hitting coach in high school ruined my baseball career.
I was hitting just below .400 one season, and then they thought they saw a problem in my swing. With this new swing, the next season, I had about two solid base hits, and every time I would try to revert back, he wouldn’t let me. Perhaps the most obvious indication that it wasn’t working were all of my swinging strikes, which avoiding them had actually been one of my skills before. But he didn’t care.
Then after about 15 games, the head coach benched me for another guy. Yes, before letting me go back to my old swing, I was benched. Played about two games the rest of the year, with the exception of some pinch-running and defensive subs. It really sucked. It killed my motivation to try another team outside of club and rec leagues after I graduated.
Oh, and the coach was fired a year later, which was more frustrating than anything knowing if I had only been one year younger . . .
Maybe it was because this was high school, and the coaches were trying to prove themselves. But I hear so many stories about hitting coaches trying to “fix” players who are having outstanding careers as it is. It’s the same frustration we felt with Anthony Reyes. I don’t, however, think that the coaches don’t know what they’re talking about. Most of them will get it right nine times out of ten. But I DO feel that several of them, pitching and hitting, suffer from an authoritative ego where they feel their way is the best, and since they can’t go out there and prove it themselves, they force their players to adapt to their style.
I don’t know. That’s just my take. Nothing scientific behind it — simply something to consider. I’m sure I’m not the only one with this type of experience.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on May 27, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something about this
I was hitting just below .400 one season, and then they thought they saw a problem in my swing.
Just doesn’t add up for me. :-)
Comparing high school coaches with professional coaches is also pretty insignificant. I’ve seen high school coaches with teams of 15 kids who all hit, pitch, field, and throw the same way and they are very successful simply because they are incredibly good at teaching fundamentals to kids and can get kids to buy into playing their system.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on May 27, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happens All The Time
One of the things I do for a living is give hitting and pitching instruction.
I am constantly being approached by parents of kids who are hitting the ball well (.400+) but whose coaches are trying to “fix” their swings because they don’t fit their pre-conceived (and incorrect) notions of what a good swing looks like.
Ignorance and ego are a very dangerous combination.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do What Pujols Does
I will also mention that one of my clients has had success at the ML level largely by forgetting what every hitting coach ever told him and just doing what Pujols does.
The problem is that in too many cases what coaches teach, and what Pujols does, are two very different things.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's also incorrect to let a guy continue with a "bad" swing, just because he is hitting well
Even Brendan Ryan will have stretches where he looks like Pujols, even if everyone agrees he needs to take more pitches It’s the coaches job to recognize how to improve the players approach and swing. Most coaches, especially at higher levels, are very good at doing this.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 28, 2009 5:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In My Experience...
…the vast majority of coaches don’t know what they are talking about. In most cases they see a good swing and think it’s a bad swing. That is because they believe in incorrect ideas like extension at the point of contact and a linear hand path.
At the ML level, Rudy Jaramillo may be the exception and I have heard some good things about Carney Lansford.
Also, there is a huge difference between mechanics (which most people don’t understand) and approach (which many people do). At the major league level, coaches are more about approach than mechanics. That’s true for pitching as well.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
That’s exactly what it was.
My dad played baseball through to AAA and does the same as you in instructing hitting in his free time — he didn’t see a problem in my swing at all. But it didn’t matter because the system didn’t like it, and ultimately the system prevailed.
“Ignorance and ego are a very dangerous combination.” Couldn’t have said it better.
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on May 28, 2009 6:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coaches!?!
I have seen coaches get all over guys (and in some cases bench them) despite the fact that they were hitting 10+ home runs per year in HS or college.
The coach’s argument is that…
1. They aren’t hitting home runs the “right” way.
2. Their swing won’t scale to the ML level.
In truth, it’s the coach’s swing that won’t scale and that’s proven by the lack of success the players have when they try to do what the coach is telling them to do (linear hand path, A to B hand path, extension at the point of contact, swing down on the ball).
Every time I look at video of the kid, I see a swing that’s pretty consistent with the major league pattern.
I can’t imagine how many good swings, like yours, have been ruined by coaches.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Royals Catcher John Buck
Through June 2007, he had an OPS of about 1000. The Royals “fixed” his swing, eliminating a leg kick trigger, and he has never hit since (from Baseball Prospectus).
by tarakas on May 28, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
John Buck
“The Royals "fixed" his swing, eliminating a leg kick trigger…”
In an effort to simplify his swing, they evidently ruined his timing.
Not everyone can do a leg kick; their front foot doesn’t consistently get down in time. I know that was true of one MLer I am working with. He tried to do Soriano and it didn’t work. Now he’s doing a Carlos Beltran/ Chipper Jones double tap and he’s hitting well.
However, some people can do a leg kick and it’s critical.
Cookie-cutter coaches are very dangerous.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Am I the only one?
OK. I don’t get it. When you say that they are not much of a factor…and then say that they “help some guys, hurt some guys, and have no impact on others.” And then go on to say that the next guy brought in does that, too…I’d say that they play quite a factor. If different hitting coaches help and hurt different players, then that’s a factor.
by stlfan on May 27, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose the slumps could be attributed to the hitting coach not adapting to other team's game plans
on how to pitch the Cards, so I think he could have some effect… but ultimately it’s in the hands of the offense
4B - beer baseball bands blog
"OOHHHHH!!!! He knocked out the I in Big Mac Land!!"
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 26, 2009 11:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i fought it. i really did
but a man is only so strong, y’know?
significance*
by prophetjohn on May 27, 2009 1:47 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ah
I think Soonerfan said it best…they help some guys, not others, and other don’t want to be helped because they think they’ve figured it out.
I’d say they probably could set a tone regarding approach, but most guys OBP’s and SLG’s stay constant or change at predictable rates regardless of who their hitting coach was. More than anything, they’re probably just a dude the manager knows or likes and is fun to sit around shooting-the-shit with.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on May 27, 2009 2:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's about picking up little things...
This game is all about failure. Pujols and Bonds were the best hitters of the last 25 years and they still walk back to the dugout over half the time go to the plate. The key for a hitting coach is to make sure that players are comfortable, prepared, and have their mind right.
Yogi Berra said “90% of this game is half mental”, and even though that doesn’t make logical sense, it does make sense when you think about the game itself — you can have all the physical tools in the world, but if you’re not a confident hitter and don’t think you’re going to do well, it has a significant impact on your ability to play well.
The best hitting coaches out there are guys who are able to relate to players on a physical and mental level. I think this is why most good hitting coaches are former players, and not necessarily the most gifted players, but the players who had their own struggles and had to find ways to work out of them. I think that Hal McRae is one of those guys. You can scout all you want, but you can know what pitch is coming and where it’s going to be and still not get a hit 5 times out of 10. It’s just the nature of the game itself. If a coach can spot a bad habit of a part of your swing that might have changed and point it out, that’s helpful, but it’s just as important to keep guys in the right frame of mind and keep them moving forward, especially when they’re mired in a slump.
Similar to a golf swing coach really: You can hit a golf ball in many different ways and be successful, but the great golfers are those to drill every day, have repeatable swings, and are confident that they’re going to hit the ball where they want to every time. Ernie Els probably has the sweetest swing in tour, and Jim Furyk probably has one of the worst mechanically, but both have been very successful doing what they do. Julio Franco was a very successful hitter in the majors for two decades, despite having the absolute worst fundamental batting stance I’ve probably ever seen. Some guys have noisy bats and noisy hands (like Ludwick) and some guys don’t (like Pujols), but one thing nearly all hitters have in common is that their hands stop at the same point in time right before they’re ready to swing, similar to a golfer being at the exact same impact point regardless of the ugliness of the backswing or follow through.
Hitting a baseball is probably the toughest thing to do in all of sports, so you have to be able to accept a high failure rate in order to be any good at it.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on May 27, 2009 12:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BUT LUDWICK SHORTENED HIS SWINNNNGGGGG!!!!
That’s what Al says anyway. Must be true.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on May 28, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al Kills Me
I’d laugh at some of his pronouncements about hitting (e.g. extension) if I knew that people weren’t listening to him.
But they are.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Generally speaking, I love when former hitters talk about pitching, and vice versa, because they very rarely know what they are talking about.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on May 29, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Signifagance?
What the hell is signifagance?
by MickS on May 27, 2009 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
their i fixed it
thanks for your great retort on the whole thing..i will check spell check from now on…
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on May 27, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hitting coach.......
This is a funny topic guys on 670 the score out of Chicago make fun of White Sox fans who call wanting to fire Greg Walker (Sox hitting coach)…. If you have not noticed the White Sox offense has been god awful…. Last year the sox made the playoffs and early in the year the fans were going after Greg Walker.
It is not beginning to trickle over to the North Side and a few fans call into the score and speak of firing Gerald Perry. The north siders generally lay off the hitting coach but some recent struggles have made them go after Perry, probably just because they hear so many south side fans going after Walker.
If you have good players they will hit. Like Soonerfan said the hitting coach is just another set of eyes. He does not help every single guy all the time.
by ICbirdfan on May 27, 2009 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hal McRae
It doesn’t impress me at all that McRae is a disciple of Charley Lau Sr. Lau Sr’s book is one of the worst hitting books ever written. I would also disregard anything George Brett says (but of course not what he did).
However, at the end of the day it probably doesn’t matter. By the time guys reach the bigs, their swings are mostly set.
P.S. I have video of Joe Thurston’s swing and it’s fugly. He must be a heck of an athlete to be successful with that swing.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 5:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately for us
Thurston is not particularly successful with that swing…
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on May 28, 2009 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd Love to Get My Hands On Him
It is extremely hard to be successful with the swing he has…
1. Linear, A to B hand path.
2. Lunging.
3. Swinging down on the ball.
He must have great hand-eye coordination to be able to make that swing work even a bit.
I’d love a chance to work with him.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I get the feeling he must have great co-ordination too, he does seem to swing down at the ball unusually (i.e. ball and bat aren’t on the same plane of the swing for very long).
Out of interest, what do you mean by “Linear” with regard to swing, and why do you think it’s bad? I don’t think it’s a term I’ve heard before.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on May 29, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Linear Swing
Thurston swings down on a ball that is already going down, which minimizes the chance the bat will meet the ball.
A Linear swing is an arm-y swing where the hitter tries to take his hands directly at the ball and tries to get his power with the muscles of the hands and wrists. This is in contrast to a rotational swing in which the power comes from the muscles of the core. The ultimate rotational hitter is Pujols.
by thepainguy on May 29, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If by successful...
…you mean is a major league baseball player, then yes.
If by successful, you mean a good hitter…well…he ain’t. He kinda sucks really.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on May 28, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think young players can be hurt or helped by coaches and organizations
It all depends on getting a player to play to his strengths.
As Moneyball detailed, Scott Hatterberg was hurt by the Red Sox, who insisted he use a much more aggressive style of hitting than worked for him in the minors. If you a young player and are a “take and rake” hitter, an organization/coach/manager preaching a more aggressive style could be in real trouble if you don’t have the skills for it.
Meamwhile, if a player is not playing to his strengths, the staff can help him. As Whitey Herzog argued pretty convincingly, he had a positive impact on many fast players by getting them to be groundball/turf hitters instead of swinging for the fences.
by tarakas on May 28, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What I am curious about is our minor league coaches
By the time a guy gets to Hal McRae, I’m assuming his mechanics are pretty much set, and probably the most important part is working on the mental/approach part to hitting, and even then I’d argue that a Hal McRae means about as much as having some solid, veteran hitters on the team. But when you have your 20 year old kids in Springfield, what kind of coaches are we using down there? Everybody always agrees that the team has to “develop” young talent, but what do we know about the guys actually doing it?
by Expatcardfan on May 28, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats probably one of the better
posts in this thread…they are all good, but this is a valid point
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on May 28, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In My Experience They Are Good
The guys I have met…
1. Seem to understand what a good swing looks like.
2. Are trying to learn more.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whiteyball
“As Whitey Herzog argued pretty convincingly, he had a positive impact on many fast players by getting them to be groundball/turf hitters instead of swinging for the fences.”
This was absolutely a valid strategy in the days of the AstroTurf caverns, but it won’t work today given the smaller, grass outfields.
Now, it makes more sense to elevate the ball and hit it hard.
by thepainguy on May 28, 2009 11:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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