Hitting in Front of Pujols

by Warcard on May 15, 2009 9:54 PM EDT

is constantly talked about as being the best spot in baseball and I would like to throw out a different line of thinking on such perspective. There is no doubt that the guy hitting in this spot may get better pitches from a pitcher because they do not want to face Pujols with runner(s) on base, etc. While this is a distinct advantage I think there is also some negative to this spot as well.

I think the #2 spot in the Cards order brings with it more pressure than any other spot, even more pressure than hitting behind Pujols in the clean-up spot because there is so much emphasis to just get on base so Pujols will get a chance to hit. I think this "just get on base mentality can make he hitter more passive and alter the approach. I don't think that is a bad thing for a guy like Robinson, but I believe it may take away to much aggressiveness from a guy like Rasmus.

It may just be coincidental but I just had a feeling that we would see a different Rasmus hitting down in the order, and so far so good. Not that he did not do a good job hitting in front of Pujols, but he seems much more relaxed and aggressive hitting in the #6 spot. Of course his success may be from just getting to play on an everyday basis, etc. but it makes me wonder. Remember the discussion about how they wanted him to hit down on the ball, and how he was encouraged to bunt. Nothing wrong with that strategy, but they may have under-estimated his power and value at driving in runs.

What happened to the warning track power thoughts, and the discussion of how he will eventually become a power hitter as he matures? Now I fully understand that a couple of home runs does not make him a power hitter, but that 452 foot bomb was pretty impressive - it makes me wonder if he does not have more power than what most were predicting.

So maybe Rasmus will thrive down in the order and maybe Tony needs to re-think what type of hitter should be in front of Pujols. I know Tony has said that he likes someone who can provide power in that spot, but maybe just someone to get on in front of Pujols should be the goal, and a pesky hitter like Robinson might just be the right fit.

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I'm still waiting for this.....

hitting infront of Albert theory to pan out…so far the Cardinals #2 hitters are putting together a slash line of .265/.299/.388/.687. Pretty pitiful.

The culprits?

Rasmus – 75 PA .296/.333/.394/.727
Ankiel – 28 PA .214/.214/.286/.500
K. Greene – 21 PA .210/.286/.210/.496
Thurston – 18 PA .278/.278/.611/.889
Robinson – 7 PA .286/.286./286/.572
Ludwick – 4 PA .000/.250/.000/.250
T. Greene – 1 PA 1.000/1.000/4.000/5.000

In closing….please…no more K.Greene in the 2 hole

"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on May 15, 2009 10:53 PM EDT reply actions

or ANK

Chuck Norris doesn't need a bat.

he just roundhouse kicks the ball out of the park.

by bearcatcardfan on May 16, 2009 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions

PLEASE...

… nobody hit in front of Pujols!!!!!!!!!!

no seriously… the players who are hitting in front of Pujols are largely NOT Ludwick, Duncan, and Molina. and those are our best not-Pujols hitters. that, coupled with 25-AB samples, is going to make everybody else look bad.

unless people really think that Thirsty is gonna OPS .900 if he only hits in front of Albert all the time.

no. put Colby there for the rest of the year. hell, maybe for the rest of his career. it’s the right place for him.

by kindred on May 16, 2009 4:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

sss

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 17, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions

Not exactly

I believe it may take away to much aggressiveness from a guy like Rasmus.

Rasmus has all of 29 PAs in spots other than the 2 spot and 80 PAs in the 2 spot. From the 2 spot, his line is .296/.354/.394/.749. From other spots, he has 4 hits and 3 walks for an OBP of .241. But whatever the case may be, it’s way too small a sample size to matter.

What happened to the warning track power thoughts, and the discussion of how he will eventually become a power hitter as he matures? Now I fully understand that a couple of home runs does not make him a power hitter, but that 452 foot bomb was pretty impressive – it makes me wonder if he does not have more power than what most were predicting.

I think it’s too early. Rasmus will have power. He hit 29 homers in AA in 2007. No one is claiming that he only has warning track power. Also, hitting one monster home run does not make him the next Barry Bonds.

If the point of this post is to say that Rasmus will hit better when he’s not in front of Pujols, I think it’s silly. There is no evidence to back up this claim. We can’t make any judgements just because of one homerun he hit. Also, Robinson in the 2 spot? Really? He has a career minor league OBP of .343. He really shouldn’t be on the team but since he has to be, he ought to be at the bottom of the order, minimizing his exposure.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on May 15, 2009 11:10 PM EDT reply actions

Do...

HBP’s count towards OBP?

"Greene over to Schumaker, on to first! Double Play!!"

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on May 15, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes

That was a big part of Eck’s game…

by DiscoJer on May 16, 2009 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions

Crap

Yeah they do. He’s actually had 2 HBPs in those 29 PAs in spots other than the 2 spot. Counting those, his OBP is .310. Assuming he doesn’t get hit once every 14.5 PAs in those spots, his OBP is (3BB + 4Hits / 27 PAs) .259 from spots other than the 2 spot. Again, too small a sample to matter.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on May 16, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions

There should be one, and only one, criterion for the Cards' #2 hitter...

It should ALWAYS be the player with the best OBP who isn’t wearing a number 5 on his back.

End of discussion.

Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.

by Felonius_Monk on May 16, 2009 5:11 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Agree

sample size is way to small to come to any conclusion. Everything is just speculation and as we know success in baseball is about longterm.

Rasmus has done a good job in the #2 hole and that may be where he belongs – however he has hit two homeruns in back to back games while hitting down in the order and one of them was a bomb. With all of the success that Pujols has had in Pittsburg I don’t think that he has ever hit one into the river – no big deal, but it just makes me realize that Rasmus may have more power than I had thought.

Maybe I can better explain my thinking this way. If you had two Pujols type players where would you hit them? Now Rasmus is no Pujols, but I do believe that he has potential to be a very good hitter who can drive in runs. If you had a second Pujols you might stack them back to back in the 2/3 postions, but if you do that then the guy in the 2 spot cannot have the mentality that it is just my job to get on base, and that is exactly what I have heard over and over when Rasmus has hit in that position.

I like the bunt-for-a hit as much as anyone, and I understand that there are certain guys who should hit down on the ball, but you do not tell a Pujols to do that because he is the guy who drives in runs for you. I am just saying that Rasmus, while he is clearly not a Pujols, might be more valuable to be that TYPE of hitter and I think that potential is what we have seeing out of him in the past two games.

Robinson – not saying that Robinson is the guy who should hit there. I’m suggesting that type of hitter might should be the guy hitting there. I understand that Robinson does not start as soon as Ankiel returns, but I do think that type of guy who bunts to get on -who hits down on the ball, and who works the count for a walk might be the best type of hitter to put in that spot. Rasmus is capable of doing that , but I don’t want Pujols hitting that way, and now I am not so certain that I want Rasmus hitting that way either. You also have the problem of having someone with speed hit in that spot because you want to keep 1B occupied. It is a unique spot – I think you can argue that you basically want someone standing on 1B when Albert comes up.

I agree that you have got to have a high OBP guy in the #2 spot and that such is the highest priority – but I also believe that those guys are easier to find than an Albert Pujols type player. Time will only tell if Rasmus is going to be that type of player – and right now the sample size is way to small to intelligently project anything – but it does make me stop and re-think the possibilities.

by Warcard on May 16, 2009 10:55 AM EDT reply actions

If Albert

was a lefty, he’d likely have hit one into the river by now.

Classic underachiever.

by spants on May 16, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions

My main issue with Robinson in the #2 hole

is that he is not a good hitter. Your not-good hitters should be at the bottom of the lineup. I don’t agree with putting specific “types” of hitters in top-of-the-order positions (i.e. sticking Michael Bourn or Juan Pierre at leadoff just because they’re fast, even though they’re terrible hitters) if they’re not good enough to be there based on more subjective measures (OBP, wOBA). I agree that maybe Rasmus would be better served hitting further down the order, but in that case I think we need to put one of our best hitters (again by OBP/wOBA) in that spot – maybe Duncan, maybe even Ludwick when he comes back.

Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.

by Felonius_Monk on May 18, 2009 4:08 AM EDT up reply actions

To expand on that...

Your 5 best hitters should always bat in the 1-5 spots in the order, so as to maximize their plate appearances. IMO, Rasmus is one of the 5 best hitters (I rank him a little ahead of Molina and Schumkaer) along with Pujols, Duncan, Ludwick and Ankiel. Rasmus has the least power of the 5, meaning he should be batting the most with nobody on, so his best spot would be leadoff. In an ideal world, Pujols would bat second, however, right now, I would be exstatic to see:

Rasmus
Duncan
Pujols
Ludwick
Ankiel
Yadi
Greene
Pitcher
Thurston/Barden

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 18, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah I think that's our best team & lineup

I think you could do a few things to separate the lefties (potentially three in a row if Thurston plays) but that’s what I’d want too.

Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.

by Felonius_Monk on May 18, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions

At this point

I have to agree that Rasmus would be the best leadoff hitter. Sure, he will hit some homers with no one on, but at this point he’s still more of line drive hitter. I like the plate discipline, speed, and on base ability that he offers for the 1 spot. Duncan in the 2 spot is a good choice because he’s a high OBP guy and Tony likes to have some power in the 2 hole. The rest of the lineup just follows from there.

The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.

by thegodfather on May 18, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Whoops

I have 4 outfielders.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 18, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions

in st. louis? that's never a mistake.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on May 18, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

slacker

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on May 19, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions

i like it...

… despite the extra OF and no 2B, but i think i’d keep Schu in the lead-off spot and move Raz down when he plays. Raz’s OBP in the minors was .366 (.346 in Memphis) and so far in StL it’s .328. Schu’s been in the .350s the past three seasons. until Raz shows that he can get on base consistently, i’d rather leave Schu there. Schu has been out-slugging Raz as well, so we wouldn’t be sacrificing the ability to get into scoring position either.

so my line-up would be:

Schu
Dunc
Pujols
Luddy
Ank/Raz
Yadi
Greene/Greene
Pitcher
Barden/Thurston

if we ever get a real 3B, then put him where Ank/Raz is and move everybody else down a spot. starting next year or later this year i’d move Raz up to lead-off or #2, if he improves his OBP.

by kindred on May 18, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions

I think that Rasmus is a good bet to have a higher OBP than Skip

but that doesn’t really matter. They are basically the same hitter right now in there careers, so their interchangeable in my mind.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 18, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions

i think Raz has more power

Can see him hitting 15-20 bombs this year. I don’t see Schumaker getting into double figures.

Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.

by Felonius_Monk on May 19, 2009 6:07 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah

but Schumaker will likely hit for a higher average making there slugging percentage roughly the same.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 19, 2009 6:17 AM EDT up reply actions

my two cents

good discussion: I see both sides of the Rasmus argument… and I am ok either way.
Seems to me if Duncan is hitting, and Luddy, and we get Glaus back… it could be that Colby is the best choice for 2-hole that we have.
In general, tho, I’ve never been a fan of the LaRussa mania for placing a “power” hitter there. I’m of the Mark DeRosa, Ted Sizemore school of thought… ie bat control. And I agree that on-base percentage is the strongest argument.

by the Tewk on May 16, 2009 5:02 PM EDT reply actions

Why does no one think that...

Rasmus
Schu
Pujols
Ludwick
Duncan
Molina
3rd
SS
P

would be an option? Rasmus could work well out of the leadoff spot.

by The_teague on May 19, 2009 3:48 AM EDT reply actions

rather have the better OBP guy at 1 and the better power option at 2

presumably. But either way probably works fine.

Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.

by Felonius_Monk on May 19, 2009 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions

No Discussion of

a traditional line-up with Pujols hitting clean-up. You want a man on base in front of him and three chances are better than two. I understand that hitting third guarantees that he hits in the first inning and gives him a few more at bats throughout the year – but that is the only advantage.

If you put your best three on-base guys in front of him I think he comes up with men on base more often than he does hitting third. No stats to prove the point but it sure would seem to work that way. Just for fun:

Ryan
Schumaker
Rasmus
Pujols
Ludwick
Duncan
Ankiel
Molina
Pitcher

Pujols hitting clean-up and playing 3B. No way but you have to like that line-up!

by Warcard on May 20, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions