So Long, Crabman
by Alxfritz on Apr 20, 2009 4:43 PM EDT
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PrintMuch neglected 4th outfielder and future spaceman Brian Barton has been dealt to Atlanta for Blaine Boyer, per John Marecek.
ST. LOUIS, MO., April 20, 2009 – The St. Louis Cardinals made a move today to fortify their bullpen depth by acquiring right-handed reliever Blaine Boyer from the Atlanta Braves in exchange for Memphis (AAA) outfielder Brian Barton.
Boyer, 27, appeared in a career-high 76 games for the Braves in 2008, ranking 9th among National League pitchers. He also set career highs for innings pitched (72.0) and strikeouts (67) and was among Braves' leaders in Holds with 14.The 6-3, 215-pound Boyer appeared in three games (1.1 IP) with the Braves this season, losing his lone decision on April 8 at Philadelphia.
Boyer has so far sucked this year and was DFA'd for Jo Jo Dancing Reyes a few days ago. Meanwhile, all Barton has done is be goofy and awesome down in Memphis.
The move might help the bullpen (hell, it can't hurt), but the St Louis organization has lost major cool points.
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In hindsight, maybe
I never should have got his jersey last summer or sponsored his BRef page.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
apparently, the front office's plan for coping with our glut of outfielders is to turn them
into generic baseball players, like right-handed relievers with 4.20 FIP’s.
next we will turn jon jay into a backup catcher.
sorry, brian. you were fun to watch and apparently a genuinely nice guy. good luck in the ATL.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
4.20 FIP?
Dude, how cool is it that the front office is getting high and celebrating the holiday?
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
by birdjam on Apr 20, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 23 recs
that's awesome. rec'd.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
What's Perdomo FIPing in SD?
If we’d have put him on the 40-man, we wouldn’t have had to deal Barton. Our solution would have already been in the organization.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Perdomo's FIP in a very small sample size is horrible, though his projections don't
show him near 4.20.
still, i don’t see why this guy is better than putting, say, blake hawksworth in middle relief.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Boyer's FIP right now is above 9
Hard to judge a guy on FIP before the first month is over (I hope!)
I've got one foot on the platform, the other foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans, to wear that ball and chain
by jd is legend on Apr 20, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
you and me both, brotha
letting him go was mind boggling. but i suppose they figured they could get the same production from one of Perez, Motte, and Kinney. So much for that..
MyBrute - Where tiny gladiators rule the internets
Well usually 40 year old relievers don't fair well but Springer is an exception to the rules.
*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*
Perdomo
If he wasn’t going to play in the majors this year, and if he didn’t improve quite a bit over last year, then there was no real reason to put him on the 40-man roster.
We are going to lose players next winter:
http://thecardinalnation.com/2009/02/04/cards-2009-rule5-draft-part2/
[an article that highlights the future problems with the 40-man roster)
I suspect that management felt that Perdomo was not as good as the #8 or #9 prospect on this list. And, remember, if he’s on the 40 man roster he has to be waived before he can be sent to the minors (and then can chose not to go). It’s better to lose a player in the Rule V draft than it is to lose them on waivers (since you stand a chance of getting them back and it potentially weakens the team drafting them – and if you lose them on waivers they’re simply gone.)
The Cardinals are generally pretty good at managing the 40 man roster. Brian Barden is an example of a team that had their roster full and picked up someone for the late stretch. So we got him on waivers.
nice
Your post is even highlighted in green now.
by Glowsticks on Apr 20, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ha-ha
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 20, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
hilarious
i wonder if there’s a pattern of erratic behavior by the cards’ front office every year around this time…
"All hipsters are actually jocks who want to be geeks but are afraid to admit it." -John Hodgman, More Information Than You Require
by redbird brain on Apr 20, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
So...
who gets sent to memphis to make room for Boyer? And does anyone come up from Springfield to replace barton in the OF?
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
Better question
WHO WILL BE OUR RH OF’er besides Ludwick?!?!
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 20, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
brendan ryan. duh.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
We don't have one
Right now, Duncan, in a paltry 18 PAs, is OPSing 1.056 vs. LHP and hitting .389. He doesn’t have a walk, either. Fun with small sample sizes!
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
walks clog up the basepaths
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 20, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
This is perhaps best for Barton...
I don’t think he had much of a future in St. Louis. What with the OF glut and all. I think he could be starting on some major league teams, at least.
He'd likely be the 3rd best OF'er on the Yankees active roster
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 20, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
this brings up
what could we have gotten from the Yankees for him?
"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell
The Braves are a great organization for him to goto
They are pretty weak in the OF.
MyBrute - Where tiny gladiators rule the internets
an answer to everyone's first question:
He actually got ripped apart by the Cardinals; two innings over four appearances, a 22.50 ERA, 6-12 at bat with a home run (off the bat of Mighty Joe Mather, who is now, I guess, the Cardinals’ right-handed outfielder designate.)
that would make way too much sense
much better to try and patch a hole with a dozen small patches than one which actually fits
How depressing is it being you? Is it closer to being a lifelong cubs fan or being born without lips? - Janitor
by themanthemyth on Apr 20, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Barton was starting in Memphis
for the most part, so I wonder who comes up from Springfield to fill his spot.
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 20, 2009 5:05 PM EDT reply actions
It's gotta be Daryl Jones doesn't it?
He’s hitting the cover off it at AA right now…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
i would imagine.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
They'll still need to replace him on the roster with someone
Regardless of who plays LF. I would think they’d leave Craig at third and call up Jones to see what he can do at the AAA level.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
or Daryl Jones gets promoted
I think I would rather see Craig get OF ab’s though
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 20, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
if boyer goes on the ML roster
someone has to go down to make room. That is how they will fill out the memphis roster.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
this boyer guy
may have set all career highs in innings and k’s and whatnot last season but he still has an uber 5.50 ERA… And he has already allowed 6 runs on 1.1 IP this season. Is our FO ok? Perhaps is TLR with another genius decision… This move puzzles me, maybe someone can clarify for me or agree with me…
Yadi swings and hits a high fly ball... Endy Chavez goes back, to the track, to the wall... ITS A GUNNER!! Yadi gives St. Louis the lead in the top of the ninth!
they will just tell him
to pitch it low in the zone, and turn him into a groundball pitcher
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 21, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate this trade
There are plenty of FA relief pitchers that the Cardinals could have signed that will give us what Boyer probably will. He pitched in essentially mop-up duty for most of the second half of last season and his ERA and FIP shows why. He does get quite a few ground balls, but his K rate isn’t all that good at the major league level for a reliever, and it’s not like the Cardinals are hurting for relief pitching from the right side.
Barton was a good RH hitting OF option for the Cardinals, what with Joe Mather starting horribly. I really don’t understand this move at all, there had to be more of a market for a potential leadoff hitter with better than average LF defense didn’t there?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I do, too
This is horrendous. Boyer sucks. We could have sent the Braves a bag of balls. I think this is as much to clear room in the Memphis OF as “bolstering” the ’pen. This smells like a late era Jocketty-esque maneuver, which means it stinks.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Agreed
Boyer is only a little better than replacement level reliever. We have a shit ton of options in the minors who could pitch just as well. Crabman was a very solid player, who unfortunately had no place on the team, but I would have liked to see a more interesting return than Boyer.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 20, 2009 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think this sums up my and everyone elses opinion...
“Boyer is only a little better than replacement level reliever. We have a shit ton of options in the minors who could pitch just as well. "
St. Louis Cardinals… defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 20, 2009 10:06 PM EDT
*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*
Mo's wish list
“Let’s see. Burke Badenhop, Brian Bannister, Brian Bass, Boof Bonser, Bill Bray, Brian Bruney, Billy Buckner, Bryan Bullington, Brian Burres. Now to eliminate ones who can’t be dealt. Just for fun, let’s check the list of position players. Brian Bixler, Brian Bocock, Brandon Boggs, Ben Broussard, Brian Buscher, Billy Butler…”
“Mo, what about—”
“Shhh. I’m crossing off possibilities.”
(mistakes are my own)
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Apr 20, 2009 5:14 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
He's a ten-foot tall beast man, who showers in vodka, and feeds his baby shrimp scampi.
We once had a bachelor party for Brasky. He ate the entire cake, before we could tell him there was a stripper in it.
I once saw him scissor kick Angela Lansberry.
He has a toenail on the end of his penis.
Brasky’s family crest is a picture of a barracuda, eating Neil Armstrong.
His favorite TV movie is The Boy In The Plastic Bubble starring John Travolta.
I get a "D" in common sense ... and an "F" in general helping.
i guess the front office is looking more for the upside
pictured here.
and hoping that boyer’s skills resemble the pitcher described there, and not the “dead arm” reliever who contributed to walking in 3 runs with the bases loaded against the phils earlier this season.
the perplexing thing is that he doesn’t seem likely to help us right now — i’d be a little more sanguine if he got a few weeks in AAA to show that he’s still capable of pitching. yet you’d think we’d be looking for a right-hander to help us out now.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
He seemed to play like McCellan last year
Dominant first half and a huge fall off in the 2nd half
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 20, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Front office shooting themselves in the foot
This trade is a primary example. Boyer is going to be a Mike Maroth-esk pitcher – good on occasion, but not what STL needs.
Welcome to Baseball Heaven.
I like this move
The Cardinals needed to get rid of OFer’s and Barton was exspendable. This free’s up a spot for most likely Daryl Jones at Memphis. A couple questions though…
Does Boyer have to be on the 25 man roster immediately? If so who is sent down?
Lets look at Boyer’s 08 stats that stand out to me. He seems to have good rate stats that are just not converting to better numbers.
72.0 IP, 8.38 K, 3.13 BB, 2.68 K/BB, 1.23 GB/FB, .264 avg but had a 5.88 ERA
because
1.25 HR/9, .317 BABIP, 57.0% LOB
I just hope the Cardinal FO office thinks that correct these problems
If you look at his HR’s against last year at hittracker.com
http://tinyurl.com/c6o6xd
You will see most of the home runs given up were either lucky or just enough so maybe going to Busch Stadium will help with that. The LOB % is ridiculous though and needs to be fixed
Stat Whore
"Cardinals needed to get rid of OFer’s"
No, they didn’t. They had a surplus position to trade from. They are almost a year away from “needing” to move one.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
But what if Barton was taking away AB's away from players
Who are more likely to play in Saint Louis than him?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 20, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm with you, Flim
I loves me some crabman, but the dude was never going to actually play in St. Louis. Our bullpen needs some help, and I’d rather address it now than after the pen has lost 15 games in July.
That said, I haven’t had the chance to dig into the new reliever’s numbers yet, but I’m all for more pitching support. Even if he’s not great, remember: Welley sucked for the freaking KC Royals, and he’s doing fine for himself under Duncan’s tutelage.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
forgot about welley
+1
Now that I’ve had a chance to be rational, this isn’t as horrid as I originally thought.
searching through the braves fansite, it seems boyer was mentioned as a bit piece in
a ludwick for k. johnson trade and in a straight-up-for-joe-mather trade.
neither trade got done, but it seems the org has had its sights set on boyer for a while. maybe they see something we don’t.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
At best Boyer may be a league average reliever
Those types of guys are incredibly easy to find and are not even close to what Barton is in terms of value. I agree that Barton really had no place on the team, there are simply just too many better and more long term options, however receiving Boyer isn’t a very good move. We should have at least tried to get a starter.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 20, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
The Braves are not stupid....
They looked at the STL MLB, AAA, and AA roster and realized that the Cardinals have 3,000 outfielders.
The Cardinals have zero leverage unless they just chose to not trade Barton.
When you have a surplus it’s hard to get a team to give up much. I think the Braves probably realized Barton was not going to sniff the MLB roster for STL barring injury to some regulars.
but the braves had already DFA'd Boyer
he was GONE, one way or the other; the cardinals could have claimed him for nothing, if he made it to their waiver slot.
We gave the braves Barton so that the padres couldn’t claim Boyer off of waivers, basically.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
at least
they traded Barton to someone that can use him (maybe they are too nice)
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 21, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
No leverage???
The leverage the Cards had was to deal Barton to another club.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
Not a big fan of this move
Of course, I had an unrealistically high view of Barton. At least we don’t have to specify whether we’re talking about “slur-it” or “enunciate” anymore. I wonder who goes down to make room for Boyer?
I've got one foot on the platform, the other foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans, to wear that ball and chain
Maybe so
I still think he’s got a good shot to be a good #4 outfielder with better than average on base ability. I also think he was getting squeezed from both directions in this organization. Still, there’s a good chance that at some point this season people will start saying, “Hey, you know what. We aren’t stacked up to win against lefties.” There could be better candidates than Barton to fill that void, particularly if Mather starts hitting, but Barton still could very well have served a valuable purpose, this year, with this roster.
If it frees up Jones to AAA, that’s a big mark on the plus side. Apparently Boyer is someone they think they can work with too, although I always wonder how much pain you have to go through before you get to that point.
by Merry CRasmus on Apr 20, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think that's really fair to him.
Skip is basically a young So Taguchi (albeit left-handed).
Barton has a lot more potential. He walks a lot more. He’s taller and thus should (hopefully) develop more power. Maybe. But he’s also fast, too.
too bad he hasn't been projected as a CF.
i’m not sure he couldn’t handle it. he’s got the speed and the range. and his arm was not nearly as bad as the conventional wisdom.
he lacks the power to project as a typical corner outfielder. but I think if I were, say, the White Sox, he’d be worth a shot in center.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Boyer isn't really an answer
and probably just injects more confusion into a crowded pen. It’s questionable whether he’s actually better than other internal options. If it’s just a mechanical flaw and he can reproduce last year’s results he’s probably a decent pickup — but we hardly seem to need another player who doesn’t have their shit together right now.
The worst part is that we now have a bench composed of 3 middle infielders and a backup catcher to go along with a 14 man bullpen. It’s absolute madness that hopefully won’t last longer than a day or two.
Brian Barton isn’t a significant loss but there’s little if any upgrade here.
just one game
but here is a quick and dirty look at his horizontal and vertical movement in pitch fx. I picked the game he threw the most pitches last year.
He was throwing 94-95 on his heater, and that’s some interesting movement on his change. Maybe he should throw it more?
I know the other pitch is classified as a curve, and it was slower like a curve…i’m thinking it must have not been really working for him that day, he did give up three runs that night.
94-95
that’s a positive thing. At least he has a live arm.
I'm still just concerned about Motte
and can’t let decreases in velocity go.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
His velocity hasn't decreased this year
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 20, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
perdomoesque velocity?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
you heard it here first
the Cardinals have now traded Anthony Reyes, Brian Barton, and Luis Perdomo for Luis Perdomo.
by DanUpBaby on Apr 20, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and $50K.
and for “an older, possibly broken version of luis perdomo.”
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Play like a Cardinal no more
Guess we won’t be seeing his “play like a Cardinal” commercial anymore…
Good luck to you Brian, look at it this way, at least you are closer to NASA now.
40 man roster move ? ? ?
the only thing I can figure is that they need another bullpen arm and don’t want to add one of the youngsters to the 40 man roster. Even that seems like a stretch of a reason to acquire Boyer.
Nice game result stats for last year – 6 blown saves, 6 losses (including two blown saves/losses) to go with a save, two wins and 14 holds.
This is based only on the video of him at MLB.com
but his size and build reminds me of Welley. Erik points out he’s throwing 94-95 also. Maybe Dunc sees him as a power pitching reliever that he can work with like Welley was.
Milt Thompson FTW!
I hope he is one of the guys on Dunc's mythical "short list"
"All baseball fans can be divided into two groups: those who come to batting practice and the others. Only those in the first category have much chance of amounting to anything."--Thomas Boswell
by albrtfn on Apr 20, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
IMO
we should have traded ankiel for mike gonzalez when we had the chance.
by hghallstar on Apr 20, 2009 6:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
so long crabman, thanks for the memories
we’ll always have Paris
It kind of sounds like he’s [Duncan] just running around like a puppy out there – full speed ahead in random directions. – BTown Birds Fan
BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS
Will miss Barton...
Think he’ll be a good ball player too. Ugh. I have this ominous feeling like someone just said, “Hey, you know that boat has a leak, right?”
Ah poop.
It sounds like freese will go down right now to make room for him. Maybe freese will take over at 3rd in Memphis and Mather to the out field.
Kinda sucks. We are planning a trip down to memphis next month and he was one of the players I was really looking forward to see playing.
damn.
i’m gonna miss Crabman. it’s probably the right move for the organization, but i really had a soft spot for Barton-with-a-‘T’.
au revoir, and bon voyage. hope you get your shot in the Atl.
A couple of other reactions
I give the Braves the edge here. Boyer has the ability to help the Cardinals as a sixth- or seventh-inning guy, but if anything, he’s a worse pitcher now than he was when he arrived in the majors in 2005. Barton could make what is already arguably the game’s best bench even more potent when he’s called up.
Smart kid, and I suppose this was a smart move. There was little chance that Boyer was going to sneak through waivers, and we get a capeable outfielder in return.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
Barton is hitting .107 at Memphis
he got thrown out after striking out last night (might get a couple game suspension) He is 27 years old and if he can play at the major league, he should be doing it now. Maybe he can with Atlanta. I can see the Cards moving him, they have better options. Daryl Jones should probably be moved up. Craig should be playing everyday. If Freese goes down, that means Craig has to go to the outfield. The one guy that looks major league ready to me is little Shane Robinson. He is the right handed hitter I would like to see moved up to the big team. He might be tiny but he can hit, and he has gap power.
I don't think Shane Robinson has much value to the organization
I think the Cardinal’s do not value corner out fielders that are high avg and high obp with low slugging from the corner slots. I think they want high OBP and High SLG guys ie Duncan’s, Mather’s, Craig…
That is why Barton was valued so little inside the organization and why Skip was forced to switch positions. High OBP guys have value just not from the corner slots
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 20, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Shane Robinson has value
to an organization that’d choose Brendan Ryan over Ryan Ludwick in a key batting situation.
He’s about the same sort of fourth outfielder that we’d want Barton to be.
He’s about the same sort of fourth outfielder that we’d want Barton to be.
And just look where that got Barton
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 20, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
The last time I checked
Shane Robinson is a centerfielder with good speed and defense. But you’re right, any future with the Cards would probably require a shift. La Russa did call him out minor league ST camp and used him a lot the last couple weeks of ST. I know La Russa liked him. Whitey Herzog would have already found a spot for him. Robinson could be another Matty Alou or Willie Mc Gee…but I really don’t know; just kind of a gut feeling.
Robinson is 5'9"
Tony more than likely played him for that reason alone.
by Hardcore Legend on Apr 20, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
PS: This move really is a non-issue
Barton had very little use in this organization. Yes, we liked him for his cool dreads, rocket science, genuine enthusiasm during last years opening day, and the fact that his walk up music was smooth jazz; but the guy had no real place in an organization stacked with OF talent.
I’m happy for this move, even if we lose the trade, because I want to see Barton get a chance at a regular OF job, something he would never have gotten here in the lou.
MyBrute - Where tiny gladiators rule the internets
I agree
I (and my daughter) really loved to see Barton play, and the rocket scientist aspect was awesome. From a baseball standpoint though, this helps the Cards by getting a possibly productive major league reliever for down-on-the-depth-chart-and-sinking outfielder.
Barden
He wasn’t contributing at the major league level so why not roll the dice on some pitching? Niedimier, Woermer and now Barden………………………………GONE!
Barden =! Barton
MyBrute - Where tiny gladiators rule the internets
by dcfcblues on Apr 20, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Some cool stuff on Boyer, not sure if it's been posted already
John Smoltz is a big Blaine Boyer believer. He has raved about Boyer’s potential, and spent most of the winter training with him. And "Smoltzy" isn’t the only one ready to buy stock in the 6′ 3″ right-hander. Everyone within the Braves organization seems to think highly of Boyer. And he was rumored to be one of the pieces the Padres wanted in a potential Jake Peavy trade. With the depth of Atlanta’s bullpen this year, Boyer should benefit from less pressure and a reduced work load.
MyBrute - Where tiny gladiators rule the internets
Well..
That makes me feel a little better
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
by wizardofozzie on Apr 20, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know how I feel about this.
Trading him for a guy who’s skills you could have easily gotten in the offseason makes me feel like the FO didn’t see Barton as a major league prospect – yet he was on the roster all of last year. I agree if he’s gonna be a major league player he needs to be playing now, so I am happy for him to get a chance in Atlanta. And if Boyer comes in and serves a purpose then I guess it has to be considered a success.
I also wonder if the organization considered trading Mather, as I think Atlanta would have valued him highly since his breakout happened during a series against them. Am I wrong to think that Barton’s value was/is higher than Mather? And if that’s the case, what does that say about the “jam” we have in the OF? Are any of these players major league servicable, yet?
How Mo goes about obtaining value through our system is likely to make or break his tenure.
Mather seems to have more value
Has more pop, better glove, more options remaining, and his value is currently down.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Apr 20, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
roster last year
Barton had to be on the ML roster last year because he was a Rule 5 pick up.
C'mon you Redbirds, lets prove em' wrong, again!
by yer dog first on Apr 20, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
well i feel alot better
especially since 175 XM said the braves needed middle infielders and made it sound like Barden…some braves fan called and talked about how bad boyer sucks…but we have seen how dunc can work on some guys…so maybe give it time..
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
off topic
but pujols interview on espn’s baseball today podcast . . .
"I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’" ~Shannon
good?
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punch and judy hitter-major league 2
by punchinjudy on Apr 20, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
excellent
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 20, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
This trade is good if....
….Barton leaving opens up spots in Memphis for Jones or Craig, as others have mentioned before. Boyer sucks, but I went to Friday’s game at the (Un)Friendly Confines and listened to Saturday’s game on WGN, and the entire bullpen sucks except for Franklin, so it can only go up from here. The bullpen is almost as bad as Ron Santo’s announcing, but nothing can be that horrible.
I hope that Crab Man gets plenty of playing time with the Braves, and that his post-Cardinals career is as bright as his future after baseball.
Boyer isn't the answer in the pen
Motte and Perez might be struggling a little now, however they will be fine. Motte’s FIP is just over 2, and his high ERA is the result of that one crappy game and an elevated BABIP. Kinney and Perez are struggling right now, but they have both had success in the majors, and they have big league stuff. The LOOGY’s should be fine, if Tony only uses them against lefties. Franklin is the one guy who I don’t want on the team, unfortunately, he is pitching well right now.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 20, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
you know, one of the assumptions that goes into
the idea that “FIP is more predictive than ERA” is that all MLB pitchers have enough of whatever the quality is that makes BABIP relatively consistent…
Playing devil’s advocate a bit, for a guy like Motte, who throws hard but was obviously having serious command issues, or say Wang, who lost it completely so far this season, that assumption might not be valid. Especially over small periods of time like “one game”.
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
Motte's serious command issues haven't been showing up
He has 6 strikeouts and only 1 walk in 6 innings. I’m not saying that he hits on BIP have been unlucky, but they are quite unsustainable. If he continues to throw around peripherals like he has been so far, then he will have a very good season.
Wang is a different story. Even his FIP is like 15.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Comand issues doesn't necessarily mean he's throwing balls.
It could also mean he’s getting too much of the plate.
Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky and I went horseback riding, but there weren't any horses around? Anyway, Brasky throws a saddle on my back and rides me around Wyoming for three days. Well, wouldn't ya know it, my stamina increased with each day, and I develop tremendous leg muscles. So anyway, Brasky decides to enter me into the Breeders Cup under the name Turkish Delight. And Im running in second place, and I'm running, and I break my ankle. So anyway, they're about to shoot me. Then someone from the crowd yells out, God bless him, Dont shoot him, he's a human.
And that won't be a problem over the course of a full season if he continues to strike guys out
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, it's been a bit of an issues thus far.
If he can get it up to the upper 90s then fine. But that straight as an arrow 95 mpher that grabs way too much of the plate will be hit in this league.
Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky and I went horseback riding, but there weren't any horses around? Anyway, Brasky throws a saddle on my back and rides me around Wyoming for three days. Well, wouldn't ya know it, my stamina increased with each day, and I develop tremendous leg muscles. So anyway, Brasky decides to enter me into the Breeders Cup under the name Turkish Delight. And Im running in second place, and I'm running, and I break my ankle. So anyway, they're about to shoot me. Then someone from the crowd yells out, God bless him, Dont shoot him, he's a human.
He is still striking guys out.
The fact that he has allowed so many hits on BIP is irrelevant because it is unsustainable. Also, Motte has been throwing a lot more sliders this year, and the speed differential is better.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, he might want to improve on his strike outs.
So far, he’s striking out 1 batter per inning which is great for a starter but for a closer candidate whose supposed to be a strikeout artist, not as much. He’s still putting balls in play and with his pitches, that’s not really a good thing.
Now, he only threw 1 pitch last night (slider) and I have to say it did look pretty good (then again, the hitter put decent wood on it and Beltran shouldn’t have run in the first place and should have been safe at home if he slid), but it’s going to have to get better to strike more guys out. He doesn’t have a wipe out slider. If he did, he’d be un-hittable.
Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky and I went horseback riding, but there weren't any horses around? Anyway, Brasky throws a saddle on my back and rides me around Wyoming for three days. Well, wouldn't ya know it, my stamina increased with each day, and I develop tremendous leg muscles. So anyway, Brasky decides to enter me into the Breeders Cup under the name Turkish Delight. And Im running in second place, and I'm running, and I break my ankle. So anyway, they're about to shoot me. Then someone from the crowd yells out, God bless him, Dont shoot him, he's a human.
FIP waaaay overrates Motte's performance right now
It’s only seeing a 9 K/9 0 HR/9 pitcher. In reality he’s a flyball pitcher who only has 6 Ks in 6 IP because he’s gotten to face so many batters. That’s not to say he won’t turn his performance around, but using FIP after 6 IP isn’t very useful.
Not afraid to nitpick
sure it is
It shows that if Motte continue to put up peripherals like this, then his ERA should be very good later in the season.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Good news for Barton at least
not great for the Cards though, I wonder if Boyer doesn’t hurt this team. Do we need someone with his stats on the team?
He supposedly has good stuff
and has had some mixed success in the majors. His CHONE projection before this season called for a 3.81 FIP, which is pretty good. We already have a fair amount of capable right handed relievers, so he seems superfluous, but he certainly won’t hurt the club.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
He had a horrible 2nd half (only 25 appearances)
where he had a .352 BABIP. I’m by no means a saber guy but I think I’ve heard that a number like that suggests he was a victim of horrible luck. Right?
Plus this year, he’s had 3 appearances (1 good, 2 bad) but if that were a reason to quit on a guy then Jason Motte should be banished forever.
The guy throws hard and has pretty good stuff and has good projections. Is he the answer? Heck no. But he could be a pretty good part of the bullpen. So, how about we stop judging him on a very un-lucky 2nd half (after a 1st half in which he was pretty good and was probably over-used to the max) and 2 bad games in 2009?
Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky and I went horseback riding, but there weren't any horses around? Anyway, Brasky throws a saddle on my back and rides me around Wyoming for three days. Well, wouldn't ya know it, my stamina increased with each day, and I develop tremendous leg muscles. So anyway, Brasky decides to enter me into the Breeders Cup under the name Turkish Delight. And Im running in second place, and I'm running, and I break my ankle. So anyway, they're about to shoot me. Then someone from the crowd yells out, God bless him, Dont shoot him, he's a human.
it might be luck
and it might be something else. Over 20 or so innings, a .352 BABIP isn’t substantial- about 3 extra hits, assuming a K/9 of 7, 2 extra hits with a K/9 of 9, (and no gidp’s or sacrifices) so you’re right, it’s probably luck.
The guy was used in 51 games in the first half- that’s 6 more than KMC, who did about the same thing in the second half that Boyer did. Hopefully it was just a tired arm, like we’re praying that KMC’s was. At least, (like KMC), BB has already had TJ…
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
Barton?
I’m surprised Barton is so overrated.
CHONE projected him at .260/.338/.386, which won’t cut it as a corner OF in the majors. This is hitting that is below Rico Washington and Jon Jay projections, and about the same as Nick Stavinoha.
Boyer was projected at a 3.81 ERA in Atlanta, which is at least better than the Thompson and Franklin projections.
KJOK
this probably tells you more about the projection systems
than it does about the players…
- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc
I don't think he was loved for his stats.
I think people are just sad to see an interesting and good guy part ways with the organization.
Barton has had consitently great OPB numbers in the minors
And is probably a +10 defender in a corner spot. If he is able to manage that CHONE line, than he would be close to a league average player over 600 PA, which isn’t that bad.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
not that good, either...
… for an organization with eleventy million OFers.
could we have gotten more for Barton? doubtful.
frankly, this is the sort of gamble i like seeing the Cards make: get a guy with good raw stuff and some potential who seems to be universally liked/loved by scouts, peers, projection systems, and his previous organization. trade from a surplus where it doesn’t really hurt your major league team or your minor league depth.
i really like Barton’s personality. but he can’t really give us anything that several others couldn’t, which is why he’s like 7th on the OF depth chart. and there’s a chance that Boyer could contribute. why not take the chance? if Boyer flames out, oh well. we’re not really out anything since Barton was never going to get much time with the big club.
also: we’re really, really, really thin at pitcher. maybe more thin at RP than SP, amazing as that sounds. we’ve really got nobody in AAA that we can call up, which is why our first call-up was from the Memphis rotation, not bullpen. that was the gamble taken in not re-signing Springer and going with the kids. we needed some help, even if it’s mediocre.
by kindred on Apr 21, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The reason I like Barton
was his crazy minor league OBP numbers, around .400. That, combined with his speed, and being right handed, just seemed like a good fit for the Cardinals, who run Brendan Ryan out there whenever they face a lefty.
Sure, maybe Mather has more overall value, since he’s got a lot more powerf. But he probably won’t have the value as a leadoff hitter which the Cardinals really need (at least when Skip isn’t playing)
redonkulous
I just don’t get this. I don’t think we got hosed on the deal, they both project to be about replacement level players and you always take the pitcher. The problem I have, is why throw a guy like boyer out there when our system has 15 guys that would pitch in the exactly the same, package him and bryan anderson for a real solid middle reliever, not a guy with a career era of 5.46. what would it take to pry away a guy like scott shields to shore up the bullpen, who cares about a closer, if you can’t get three outs in the big leauges, regardless of who the outs are, you don’t deserve to be playing major league baseball.
The reason why you think packaging Barton and Anderson....
for a “real solid middle reliever” is such a good deal is exactly why no other team would take that offer.
In baseball trades, two “nickels” don’t equal a “dime.” And two “dimes” and a “nickel” sure as shit don’t equal a “quarter.” Almost all proposed trade scenarios posted here suffer from this dynamic.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Apr 21, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
True
but sometimes two cheap “nickels” equal an expensive “dime.” Something like how we got Khalil Greene, or was that two “pennies” equaling a “2-cent piece.”
by MotherTruckinSteve on Apr 21, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
that was a "canadian loonie who hadn't been useful in the last year but cost $6.5M/year"
getting traded from a team that couldn’t afford the salary for any “potentially exchangeable uzbekistani currency” trade. or perhaps i should kill the currency metaphor here.
AKA — a salary dump. completely different situation.
now, if said “real solid middle reliever” somehow had a multimillion dollar contract and the dealing team lacked the money to continue paying him, then you’d have an analogy.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
right
I made a feeble attempt at describing the salary dump by calling my nickels cheap and my dimes expensive, but clearly failed….too bad because in my head it almost seemed clever.
by MotherTruckinSteve on Apr 21, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
story of my life, dude -- in my head it seemed clever.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Boyer's worth a shot
I’ll agree that Boyers a gamble. We didnt get a guy that we can count on to improve our pen, but we got a guy who gives us a “shot” to improve our pen. I liked Crabman but he didnt offer us any improvement where we are weakest. I’m starting to think that we need to carry about 15 pitchers on our roster so that after our starter goes his four or five innings we can let our relievers just pitch one inning or one or two batters. Mayber Boyer will be the guy in the 6th or 7th that can get us the one extra inning we seem to screw up in all our losses. If he doesnt work out we’ll have to make Albert the closer.
Worth mentioning:
Neither Barton or Mather have been hitting well this season. Both had wrist injuries last season. Coincidence?
Classic underachiever.
alex -- nobody has commended your cite to "jo-jo dancer, your life is calling"
so i will.
well done.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
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