Cards' WAR Lords -- C and 1B
The first thing I noticed is that the Cardinals, while having had a couple of good catchers, have had a number of really bad ones as well. #1 is probably no surprise to most of you. I discussed him back in November as a borderline Hall of Famer. He’s easily the best Cardinal catcher of the last 55 years.
1. Ted Simmons
As a Cardinal, Simmons had 46.6 WAR. In his best 5 years w/ the team, he had 28.4 WAR – nearly 6 WAR per season. His best seasons were in ’78 and ’79 and he clearly wasn’t the player he had been by the time he was jettisoned to Milwaukee. Still, he ended up 3rd on the Brewers’ list as well.
2. Tim McCarver
As insufferable as this guy is as an announcer, it’s easy to forget how good he was as a player. As a Card, he had 18.6 WAR and 16.1 in his 5 year peak. His best season was 6.1 WAR in 1967.
3. Darrell Porter
Another former Brewer, Porter actually is the best Brewers’ catcher of all time. He was a solid offensive performer w/ the Cards as well and was the NLCS and World Series MVPs in 1982. His best season was in 1983 when he had 3.8 WAR. His 5 year total as a Cardinal was 11.8.
4. Tom Pagnozzi
I never thought Pags would finish in the top 5, much less above Yadi but he was a much better catcher than we thought he’d be when he first arrived. His 5 year peak was actually higher than his career WAR total – 9 to 7.3. He had some very bad years but the 3.1 WAR he produced in 1991 is better than any single season that Yadi has had.
5. Yadier Molina
Yadi’s still adding to his total, of course, but he’s posted just 5.6 WAR in his 4+ seasons in St. Louis. He had 1.9 in ’07 and 1.8 WAR last year. Depending on whether we’re comparing them by their total WAR as a Cardinal or by their best 5 years, Molina should push past Pags this season.
| Catcher | Total WAR | 5 year peak |
|---|---|---|
| Simmons | 46.6 | 28.4 |
| McCarver | 18.6 | 16.1 |
| Porter | 11.8 | 11.8 |
| Pagnozzi | 7.9 | 9.0 |
| Molina | 5.6 | 5.6 |
Now, on to the first basemen:
1. Albert Pujols
Duh! Do I really have to say anything here? He’s played 8 seasons in the big leagues and is already 39th on the all-time WAR list (remember, post 1955). In 8 seasons, Albert has produced 67.8 WAR and has produced 47 WAR in his best 5 seasons. Last year, by the way, was only his 2nd best season – right behind 2003 when he had a ridiculous 11.1 WAR In 2002, he only had 5.7 – slacker!
2. Keith Hernandez
This guy was a solid performer throughout his tenure as a Card, producing 35 WAR in those 7.5 seasons. His best 5 years produced 28.9 WAR – nearly 6 per season. His best seasons were in 1979 and 1980 – 7.6 and 7.3 WAR, respectively. Not only was he a strong offensive player, he was also a tremendous defensive 1B. Hernandez was, of course, the league MVP in 1979 and won 5 Gold Gloves as a Cardinal.
3. Stan Musial
Remember, Musial was an OF for most of his career but began playing 1B fairly regularly in 1955 before returning to the OF in 1960. For 5 years as a 1B, he produced 23.4 WAR. (These were his age 34-38 years.) It’s fortunate for our purposes here that we have a record of his WAR as a 1B. Certainly one of the best players of all time.
4. Bill White
Bet you were looking for someone else here, huh? White was a solid 1B for the Cards in the early to mid 60s. For 6 years as a 1B, he produced exactly the same number of WAR that Musial produced in his 5 years (23.4) and his peak 5 years produced 21.6 WAR. White finished 3rd in the MVP voting during the Cards’ championship run in 1964.
5. Mark McGwire
In terms of WAR calculations, McGwire is hurt badly by the number of DPs he grounded in to and his atrocious defense at first. Still, his offense was nothing if not tremendous. In his 5 seasons as a Card, he produced 19.7 WAR with a peak of 7.3 in 1998. Doesn’t it say something about the value of defense that Hernandez’s best 2 seasons were about equal to McGwire’s in St. Louis?
| First Baseman | Total WAR | 5 year peak |
|---|---|---|
| Pujols | 67.8 | 47.0 |
| Hernandez | 35.0 | 28.9 |
| Musial | 23.4 | 23.4 |
| White | 23.4 | 21.6 |
| McGwire | 19.7 | 19.7 |
Hope you enjoyed this little stroll down memory lane. Next weekend I’ll look at the middle infielders.
BTW, astute readers will notice that I ripped off my title from that at Brew Crew Ball. Sorry, guys, it was just too good to pass up.
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What no Jack Clark?
I’d love to know where Jack Clark and his monster 1987 season stand.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
Hmm, that seems a bit off in my mind...
Is WAR adjusted to parks and seasons?
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!
According to fangraphs,
Albert was worth 8.9 WAR (both last year and in 2003). it looks like two completely different stats are being used here; one or the other of these stats should not be called “WAR”.
"i have a feeling the answers are bigger than the questions" -Dr Heyward Floyd
WAR is a pretty generic term.
I actually like that the same acronym is used — it makes it more obvious that different people are trying to do the same thing and that none of them are perfect. Forces people to understand the differences.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
well, then
they should be called “Fangraphs WAR implementation” or “Cameron’s WAR” or “Smith’s WAR” etc. I understand that none of them are perfect, and understand your point, but i strongly disagree with it; having multiple stats that measure the same thing with the same acronym and different values leads to serious confusion. or worse, a stat like Fangraphs WAR which changes in value pretty extremely from week to week with no apparent explanation unless you want to go page by page through thousands of blog articles hoping to find the article in which it was announced that WAR now includes “statistically insignificant nugget x”, most of which comes from data that isn’t freely available, so it’s un-testable.
It’s just extremely frustrating to have one idea of how a player performed, and then have the same stat tell you otherwise a week later. It makes me really, really not trust the stat.
"i have a feeling the answers are bigger than the questions" -Dr Heyward Floyd
+1
I have noticed things like this before in terms of just simple stuff like LD’s, FB’s, and GB’s. It makes it hard to know who to trust.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Well WAR is pretty easy to calculate
Use player X’s wOBA – the league average wOBA/1.2 * plate appearances. That will get you his offensive production above average.
Then choose you favorite defensive metric. That is probably the biggest variable in WAR, as Fangraphs uses UZR and Rally uses TZR (total zone rating). You can add ARM and DPR or any other thing that you can think of as well.
Than add positional and replacement level adjustment based on position and playing time.
Either way, WAR is only meant to compare the relative value of players. If you use the same defensive metric for each player, than you should be able to do just that.
vivaelbeñsheets
So which wOBA do you use?
There are at least 3 different implementations of it available on the internet today, and if you roll your own wOBA, there could be many, many more variations depending on the park factors and league corrections that you use. And why limit it to wOBA? Next month, someone may find a better way to measure total offensive value. it should be fine to use that new measure, as long as you are forthcoming about what method you used.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to have your own “version” of a stat, just that you shouldn’t call your home-grown stat “WAR” or wOBA or whatever. That should be reserved for the stat used by the guy who invented it, and all other implementations should have a different name so that they can be distinguished from one another.
"i have a feeling the answers are bigger than the questions" -Dr Heyward Floyd
If you're assuming there's so much precision that changes of .3 WAR across the board and the occasional .8 WAR change are suddenly surprisingly, you're starting with giving it too much credit, anyways.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I realize there are HUGE error bars
especially with defense and triple-especially with extremely noisy stats like “ARM”.
But recognizing that tools have limitations does not mean sabermetricians should excuse sloppy scientific practices in the development of the tools. It’s not that hard to specify what methods were used to come to a conclusion. When that is done correctly, others can take the work and build from it. When it isn’t done correctly, and especially if there is confusion as to what the letters “W A R” actually mean, that work goes from being “limited” to being “useless” for further analysis. Possibly worse than useless, because it can lead to people arriving at erroneous conclusions.
If you’re just screwing around, and you don’t care if anyone else can use the tools you’ve built, that’s fine. But if you and the others who are spending so many hours doing such awesome stuff want their work to actually mean something, if they want to build a legitimate field of inquiry out of the art of sabermetrics, then you can’t ignore this stuff. You can’t just cut out 3/4 of the scientific method and then pretend like you are doing science; if you don’t document and define your processes, you’re just masturbating with numbers.
"i have a feeling the answers are bigger than the questions" -Dr Heyward Floyd
Hilarious
if you don’t document and define your processes, you’re just masturbating with numbers.
I agree with you though. WAR should be a more clearly defined term. We should at least know what process (defense, park adjustments, replacement level) that people use. I’m fine with different variations of it, as the more data we have, the better we can evaluate players. However, the specific process needs to be made clear.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 11, 2009 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions
You only counted Stan's seasons at first base
were those Albert’s career totals, or his 1b totals?
Is it weird that I would rather the payroll be more like the Marlins than the Yankees?
Good question
He says his total for 8 seasons is 67.8 then he list that in the table at the bottom of the post so I would guess that is not just for his time at 1st. He has only been at 1st exclusively since ’04.
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
Mac?
I can’t beleive Mac only ends up 5th on this list even though he played just 4.5 seasons. I guess I like to forget just how bad he was defensively. Even after this it would be hard for me to pick Hernandez over McGwire if I was creating a team…chicks dog the long ball after all.
Fun study, cant wait to see how bad the MIF has been…thanks Chucky!
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
and how
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLECMCargd8
I swear they should remake that commercial with Pujols, lincecum and the Big Unit.
Cardwash Definition: Birds on the Nat.
five errors so far
and not out of the fifth yet… 9-0 florida…
would be six errors, but they didn’t count one skip just made.
How many errors should skippy have?
This is at least the second time I have heard that he should have been charged with am error and wasn’t. I am getting nervous about this whole expirement.
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
I'm starting to think it isn't going to work
which sucks, b/c I’m pretty confident that if Skip plays 2nd, Colby is a starting OFer.
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
His on base skills make him a viable bat at 2nd, but he's not as good as
Ludwick, Rasmus, Duncan, Ankiel, or Mather with the bat IMO.
or Barton
lets not leave out Barton, here here
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 8, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
On-Base Skill is relative
Last season, Skip had an OBP of .359, which is not bad. This OBP would have been sixth-best in Major League Baseball for second basemen (one point behind Dan Uggla). Skip’s OPS of .765 would have been eighth in MLB amongst second basemen. However, amongst leftfielders last season, he is thirteenth in MLB in OBP and seventeenth in OPS. Looking at all outfielders, Skip would have been 28th in OBP (tied with Fukudome) and 42nd in OPS amongst outfielders.
So, he is viable as an outfielder, but his offensive production has much greater value to the Cardinals at second base, if his defense can grow to be servicable. (It’s even more valuable given the depth at the club has in the outfield because we can pencil another productive outfield bat into the lineup every day.)
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 8, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Adding on...
2Bs are about ten runs more valuable than LFs over a full season. Over his career, Skip is neg 10 runs in CF per 150 games, neg 11 runs in RF, and +10 runs in LF. Those don’t match up all that well, as neg 10 in CF is about average in either corner position. A pure average implies Skip is an average fielder at a corner spot. If that’s true, he only needs to be a neg 10 at 2B to be equally valuable. If you think he’s more like a +5 in LF, he needs to be a neg 5 at 2B. +10 in LF corresponds to average at 2B.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
On the other hand...
what if his play at 2b gets Albert killed? What’s his value then?
From today’s game recap
“Two-time NL MVP Albert Pujols took a shot to the face by Wes Helms while stretching to catch a wide throw from Schmumaker. Helms had tried to leap over Pujols at first base, and the Cardinals star was hit by Helms’ foot. He dropped on a knee after chasing down the errant throw and was attended to by a Cardinals trainer.”
Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)
True But
It takes the issue of scarcity out of the issue and replacement. We obviously have quite a few more players that could replace him at LF than 2B. So his value over who would replace at 2B (Brendan Ryan/Tyler Green) vs LF (Duncan/Barton/Mather) to me indicates even if he would be a +5 LFer’s and -10 2B he still would be valuable as a 2B than a LFer.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
he still would be MORE valuable
forgot a word
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The team would be better off, yes, I totally agree.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
he's still got a month to figure it out...
that’s twice as long as he’s been working on it so far ;)
"i have a feeling the answers are bigger than the questions" -Dr Heyward Floyd
I was thinking
that if the throwing is the problem, that might be easier to correct. Wishful thinking probably.
the throwing one in the first(?)
is the one that bothers me the most. From the sound of it , he almost got Albert hurt over there. That is the worse case scenario of this whole thing.
It still boggles my mind that they didn’t have him working at 2B over the winter.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
and....BEN SHEETS!!! **
**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)
on the upside, albert doesn't seem to be hurt. this time.
making tony think ‘I could end pujols career pulling this’ might be more likely to end this experiment than a month’s worth of bobbled grounders.
if skip’s not going to hack it, stop the experiment now. i’d much rather see a thurston/ryan platoon out there than hurt pujols. or, hell, if we’re going to play dice with albert’s health, put HIM at second and play duncan and craig at first (not really serious there).
now THAT's playing with 5 blades
I like it.
"i have a feeling the answers are bigger than the questions" -Dr Heyward Floyd
I wasn't listening.
But yeah – forget this Skip at 2B experiment. Can you imagine if Skip did get Albert hurt? He’d have to live with being the reason The Mang went down. Seems unfair to Skip and to Albert. And, while we’re at it, to the fans.
i think if they really want Skippy to stay at 2nd
he needs to go to Memphis till he’s ready. i think the pressure is getting to him & it’s not going to do anyone any good if he keeps this up. settle him down, tell him to relax & just go down there till his D catches up with his bat.
the Cards can find a one year fill in at 2nd. they’ve done it before & they can do it again. this forcing Skippy to learn the position in two months time was never a good idea. they need to do the right thing & not force the issue anymore before Skippy falls apart or someone gets hurt.
BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
SKip
just has to be out of options, no?
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
and....BEN SHEETS!!! **
**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)
but who would want him if he's going to be at 2nd?
i don’t think anyone would claim him as a 2nd baseman. remember what we did with Rick? no one touched him as an OF. i think the same would happen with Skippy
BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!
there's no rule they'd have to use him as a 2b.
i think a free leadoff hitting 3 OF spot playing, .300 hitter is gonna get picked up.
the cards picked up barton as a rule 5 and kept him all year. i think skip has more value now than barton did.
Can we please trade Skip?
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 10, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
bizarre game
cards give up six runs in top of fifth, and so far have scored six in the bottom of the fifth.
hey man
I just sent you an invite to my fantasy league, not sure if you play those or not…. but you’ll be the tenth team if you join
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 8, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
to the gmail address?
i didn’t receive anything. i’ve got about four other leagues already but i can do another probably.
yeah
mountrockmore@gmail.com is the one I sent it to
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 8, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm in
i expected to see “amerin anks” or “to the moon with barton”.
“paint the town greene” or even “here comes santa gluas”.
i guess “keep it out of my pujols” or “i hope it doesn’t end up in my edmonds” doesn’t count.
also, other fantasy baseball names:
measure my mcguire,
name this kerry robinson play
which matt morris?
willie mcgee’s face
i bet j.d.’s gonna be the next griffey jr.
here comes santa glaus
funky cold molina
Any chance skip becomes the next Duncan if he becomes a butcher in the field.
Once beloved, then turned on by the fans. Not really talking about the VEB community, it’s pretty even keel as a whole.
Sarcasm?
I’m not listening to the Radio. He did pitch a scoreless inning though. Also walked 2 so I can’t really tell what you mean.
All the walks.
They’re not gonna fly. He makes every inning an adventure, kind of like Izzy. I’m just dreading that in the regular season.
There's no way
manning makes the team.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 8, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i think it is pretty much a guarantee
that it will be Miller and Reyes…unless there are injuries, of course…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
Franklin as Closer?
A little nugget from Peter Gammons today:
The Cardinals still have issues. Manager Tony La Russa has no idea who will close, unless he hands it to Ryan Franklin and hopes Chris Perez and/or Jason Motte will come on.
All of Cardinal Nation will look up and shout, “Save us,” and I’ll look down and whisper, “No.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 8, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I hope you are right
But, aren’t you worried that Gammons is merely relaying what TLR told him? I am.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Mar 8, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
We really need to have a post about the Bullpen
Who is going to make the team?
Miller
Reyes
Franklin
McCellan
Perez
Kinney
Motte
Thompson
8 guys with only 7 spots
Cardinal Nation wrote a post about it
The seventh man in the Cardinals bullpen
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I could see 8 man bullpen for the first month
The season opens with 34 games in 35 days. I doubt the starters will be making it into the 7th inning everyday so we’ll need some arms to survive April. The bullpen problems of 08 started with too much work early in the season. Tony will probably be gun shy about burning out the bullpen too soon.
13 pitchers
leaves 12 fielders:
C – Molina
1b – da Mang
2b – Schu (assuming he doesn’t get Pujols injured)
3b – Mather?
ss – KGreene
LF – lil’ Dunc/Rasmus
CF – Ankiel
RF – Ludwick
bench
Rasmus/lil’ Dunc
LaRue
Ryan/Barden
Barton?
What am I missing? This seems doable, gives us better options for April. I like it, except there only seems to be one viable 3b in Mather. I seem to recall neither Ryan nor Barden being any good at the hot corner; also, are either of them considered league average shortstops?
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Mar 9, 2009 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I have an idea
Get rid of Thompson and stretch Franklin out this spring to be the long man. Then we could carry all of our good relievers.
vivaelbeñsheets
But that would have to be Franklins job all season to be the Long Reliever
With all this talk of him being the closer I just don’t see him being the Long Reliever. Thompson fills his role as a spot starter and Long man very well.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Their is already bootlegs out of Watchmen from Russia
Most people don’t know but the vast majority of quality bootlegs come from Russia than combined with English Audio.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Normally for really early released stuff like this the video is from a Telesync. Which is a high quality camera on a tripod. Than someone gets an audio line in English than syncs them together in one movie.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Hence the frequent audio/video mismatches?
Not that I would know of such things, I have just in an academic sense wondered how that could happen.
Not afraid to nitpick
I am not sure of your question
What audio/video mismatches? You mean stuff being out of sync?
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That is normally just a poor job by the Encoder
Most of that stuff can easily fixed with <a href=“http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http3A2F%2F”http://www.videolan.org" target="_blank">www.videolan.org2Fvlc2F&ei=cU60Se_KBJSOMoqt2fkE&usg=AFQjCNHhAJ3QZ6KepVQi6V4S-8QzwYZeMA&sig2=Za7tlGY8S9FnJy-yYSNIIA" >VLC
I normally though just wait for R5’s which are like a work print. You would be amazed how many movies come out before they hit the theaters. I remember watching the movie Taken like 5 months before it hit the theaters.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that the lack of defensive metrics for catchers defense really hurts Yadi
Using a rough catcher arm rating, we can see that Yadi adds saves about 10 runs a season with his arm more than any other active regular.
vivaelbeñsheets
Rally's WAR includes catcher defense.
Yadiers at +13, +15, +12, and +6 runs over the past four years.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
just had an off year last season
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 9, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I was saying
That including his incredible defense, he still isn’t a very valuable player.
vivaelbeñsheets
thats why I don't really like all these fancy stats
to say Yadi isn’t very valuable is asinine. I don’t know if that’s what you are saying or not. maybe I’m taking it out of contex
i think VERY valuable is stretching it...(emphasis mine)
i think Yadi is valuable as in has value but to say he is very valuable is not true. Of course i guess it matters how you define valuable but as far as offensive and defensive production valuable is not the correct adjective to use for Yadi…and he is probably my favorite player on the team but i have to be realistic about his worth to the organization…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
That is what I was saying
I always had the notion in my head that Yadi was one of the best catchers simply because of his defense. Now that we can somewhat quanitify offense in defense, I can see that he isn’t THAT valualbe.
vivaelbeñsheets
We are all Yadi homers over here
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 11, 2009 4:33 AM EDT up reply actions
But
isn’t good defense just as valuable as good offense? You have made this statement many times.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
by RunninRedbird on Mar 11, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes
But before last year, Yadi’s bad offense outweighed his good defense.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 11, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
WAR, huh, what is it good for
absolutely nothing. say it again, y’all
by STLRegalia on Mar 8, 2009 5:53 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I guess Mather has officially won the 3B job
Third basemen David Freese and Brett Wallace joined 13 pitchers and catchers who were sent out after beginning the spring in Major League camp.
man, Freese really blew it
Wallace never had a chance, but Freese went from “favorite” to “career minor leaguer” almost overnight, it seems.
Mather isn’t even hitting that well, though of course ST stats mean nothing.
"i have a feeling the answers are bigger than the questions" -Dr Heyward Floyd
Sort of
But he didn’t tell the team when he got hurt.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
i didn't see the accident, so don't know if he was at fault.
not reporting a car-totaling accident to your employer is a pretty big no-no if you are a professional athlete. it seemed they only found out two months later when he came up lame.
Just my Guess
If he would of told them right when it happened than he would be still up with the team. It probably just pissed the living hell out of Mo.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed -- thought it's hard to know if the med staff would have been able to do more for
his achilles if he’d told them promptly.
I thought
it was reported that he contacted the team within a few days of the accident? I could be wrong, and it doesn’t really change the fact that he’s hurt.
i take it back. you read more carefully than i do.
Freese did not immediately contact the club. Instead, Freese’s agent, Phil Tannenbaum, contacted Cardinals assistant general manager John Abbamondi two days later. Freese has since been under supervision of the team’s medical and training staff.
“I don’t see anything sinister here,” general manager John Mozeliak said. “He’s being presented an opportunity he’s never had before and got nervous.”
In the wake of a surprise operation Jan. 21 on starting third baseman Troy Glaus, the Cardinals decided not to disclose the cause of Freese’s condition until Wednesday.
I saw another quote from Freese saying ’It’s one of those things I didn’t think was a big deal at the time," and misinterpreted it. But you’re right. his agent contacted the club two days later, and the club basically hushed it up.
Full List
After the game the Cards assigned 15 non-roster players to their respective minor league camps. Those are: pitchers Hyang-nam Choi, Justin Fiske, Brad Furnish, Shaun Garceau, Trey Hearne, Tyler Herron, Katsuhiko Maekawa, Ian Ostlund and Francisco Samuel; catchers Tony Cruz, Luis De La Cruz, Steven Hill and Justin Knoedler; infielders David Freese and Brett Wallace.
http://toastedrav.com/post/7373_spring_training_day_20
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I am happy to see Allen Craig is still on the team
But very disappointed he is not getting any playing time at 3B with the ST he is having.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i think they're more auditioning him for a pinch hit/backup corner role
and likely showcasing him for a trade.
Craig though is out hitting Mather by a mile
I bet he is also better with the glove than Mather. His 07 and 08 UZR/150 numbers per minorleaguesplits.com
07: + 8 UZR/150
08: – 3 UZR/150
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 8, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Any word yet
on who the PTBNL in the K. Greene deal is? I certainly don’t want it to be Craig, but I’m just sayin’.
by StanTheManFan on Mar 9, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn't the PTBNL
supposed to be a pitcher?
I sure thought I remember reading that at the time of the trade.
by ArkansasTravs on Mar 9, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
It is a choice b/t
2 pitchers and position player I think
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 9, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If you aren't watching (and you're probably not)...
Rollins led off with a double, and Pedroia whiffed on a bunt attempt of fastball right down the middle, leading to Rollins getting picked off at 2nd. Thus, the AL comment.
The 'JP Riccardi Eat Me' tour for Adam Dunn
is getting fun to watch. Any chance we can get Freddi Gonzalez to say something bad about Freedom Hating Adam Dunn before Team USA gets to Miami?
How many teams are wishing they had this guy as DH?
by Hardcore Legend on Mar 9, 2009 12:58 AM EDT reply actions
McGwire's Defense
I wonder where McGwire would have been on the list had he been as good defensively with the Cardinals as he was in his early years with Oakland. Big Mac won a gold glove with the A’s. There’s no question that his defense dropped off during his later years in Oakland and with St. Louis.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
good argument, bad example
Michael Young not good defensively?? maybe not gold glove caliber but no good?
maybe not no good
but not very good…UZR/150 for his career at SS: -13.1…that is not very good coming from the most important defensive position…maybe he will be better at 3B but his bat does not profile well there…he does have a UZR/150 of 72.3 in 8 career innings at 3B, so he has that going for him…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
Michael Young is not good defensively
nomar has given you the numbers, so here is a little subjectivity. Joe Posnanski (who I think is the best baseball writer in the country) had this on his blog.
“it’s worth pointing out again that I had never spoken to anyone in baseball who thought Young was a good defensive shortstop.”
So the objective numbers say it, and the subjective scouts say it. Is there anything I’m missing?
i would say even in his best of years
he would be the worst defender on that list so i dont know if it would have helped him that much…maybe moved him to fourth…a gold glove of course means nothing about fielding ability and i would have a hard time believing he was even in the top 5 in the AL defensively in 1990…Mattingly, Hernandez, Olerud, Palmeiro, and Joyner to name a few.
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
can you really say McGwire was an atrocious fielder? He has a career fielding % of .993, which is just .003 below Keith Hernandez.
not sure if you are serious
or sarcastic…hoping for the latter…
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber
It just means
he got the balls hit right to him. He didn’t have any range, and probably even less range once his knees were hurt.
He was very good at times earlier in his career
And beyond terrible towards the end. At least according to TZR>
vivaelbeñsheets
Kind of Suprised
Before reading the story I had a couple preconcieved notions that I was suprised didn’t appear on the lists. I had figured to see Johnny Mize in the First Base list and Mike Matheny in the Catchers List, but then I realized that Smith has only gone back to 1955, but even then, would he rank above guys like McGwire and White?
Another was Mike Matheny. Man, was there a more overrated catcher in the game? All I ever heard in my Teenage/post teenage years was how valuable Matheny was defensively and how he wasn’t that terrible offensively. He did have one pretty good season in 2000 with a 2.1 WAR, but after that he was just barely above a Replacement Player for his time in STL.
And Philkid3 appreciates the shoutout. I have been discussing baseball with that kid for a good 4 Years now and would consider him a personal friend. Good baseball mind.

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