Will Ohman vs Dennys Reyes - a missed opportunity?
Hey guys, long-time lurker, short time contributor, first fanpost... Go easy...
I note today that Will Ohman, he of the triumvirate of until-recently unsigned quality LHRP on the market (the others being Joe Beimel, who signed for the Nats for ~$2m, and Dennys Reyes, who we picked up for two years and $3m), has just signed on with the Dodgers.
At the time of the Reyes signing, I was broadly in favour of us adding another lefty (not 100% convinced with Miller as more than a decent LOOGY and the rest of the scrapheap guys, even my favourite hobbyhorse Ian Ostlund looked, to be blunt, awful), but I'd have liked to have seen Ohman as the target. That said, the Reyes deal looked good - we'd picked up a solid, quality lefty with a good recent record for two years for what seemed considerably less than the ~$3m we thought might take to get Ohman.
However, Ohman's deal with the Dodgers is of the MINOR league flavour, and will be worth about $1.5m (what we're paying Reyes per year, but only on the hook for one year, and with nada owed if he breaks down injured and doesn't make the team) if Ohman makes the team and hits his incentives (which, realistically, is a foregone conclusion if he stays fit).
So, I'd like to compare the deals by taking a closer look at the players.
Ohman's 32 this year and has put up FIPs of 3.17, 3.87 and 3.9 the last three years (most recent first) in 160 IP (small-ish sample size).
He averages a K per inning, but walks about 4 per 9 (although that dropped last year to a little over 3). He's exclusively a fastball/slider pitcher with not especially overpowering stuff that works best against lefties but has been reasonable against righties.
Reyes is also 32 this year and has put up FIPs of 3.67, 4.60 and 2.87 the last three years (most recent first) in 120 IP.
He averages a little under a K per inning, and walks nearly 5 per 9 (although that was good last year at less than 3; seems he's a bit inconsistent and has put up some great years along with some where he's badly struggled with walks. I'm hypothesising this might be to do with facing a larger number of RHB). He too is a fastball/slider guy with so-so stuff but relies more on his deceptive slider than Ohman (throws it ~40% of the time).
So far it's hard to separate them; Ohman's trending in the right direction, and probably has a slight advantage in K/BB rate. He's also pitched a few more innings and been more consistent, but to counter that, Reyes has played in a tougher league (although realistically a LOOGY in the NL is unlikely to ever pitch to another pitcher, which more or less negates that aspect). Reyes also has the advantage in groundball creation - he's consistently posted >50% GB rates the last few years, touching the 60%s at times, whilst Ohman is more reliant on his outfield, only posting about 40% GB rates; this probably negates a bit of Ohman's advantage in Ks and BBs. Given our ballpark and defensive alignment this year, I'm not sure if the GB/FB split is hugely relevant, however.
Now, a quick digression - my main reason for preferring Ohman over Reyes was that, even though both are decent pitchers, that Ohman is at least respectable against righties, as well as being a bit more durable. If we signed him, we could use him more frequently in high-leverage situations (and perhaps move K-Mac to the rotation, giving us more depth) because you'd not be afraid of giving him the odd AB vs RHB. But do the numbers bear that out?
For the last three years, the splits (purely in terms of OBP, or rather, how successful the two pitchers are at retiring opposition batters) are as follows; percentages in parentheses are the % of total ABs against RHB or LHB):
Ohman vs RHB: 387 ABs (55%) 0.348 OBP
Ohman vs LHB: 315 ABs (45%) 0.283 OBP
Reyes vs RHB: 242 ABs (45%) 0.372 OBP
Reyes vs LHB: 279 ABs (55%) 0.269 OBP
So there you have it. Ohman's probably a bit more durable and has thrown to more ABs but has pitched about the same number of ABs/IP as Reyes (so, for example, Reyes isn't being heavily protected against certain hitters or pitching more one-out (LOOGY) games, although he IS being used more judiciously against LH matchups). Ohman is a bit better against RHB than Reyes, so as you'd expect he's thrown to a few more of them than Reyes has. This probably makes him marginally more usefull in bullpen matchups and in terms of "spreading the innings around" effectively as he's more flexible; you'd be more ready to throw him the ball with a LHB/RHB/RHB combination coming up and leave him in for the whole inning, for instance, putting less stress on your bullpen. HOWEVER, Reyes is probably better than Ohman as a pure LOOGY.
All that said, these sample sizes are pretty small. The difference in OBP for both pitchers is not that great - it probably demonstrates that Ohman is a bit more of a "left-handed reliever" and Reyes is a bit more of a "LOOGY" but perhaps it's barely significant.
So, in summary, I think I'd still have preferered Ohman, but it's hard to say we made a mistake picking up Dennys instead. Both guys figure to be worth 0.5-1 win next year, making both contracts excellent value. Ohman wins by a notch, given that his contract is a bit lower and for one less year, though you could argue that LA is a more attractive prospect for a lot of ballplayers than St Louis, so we might've had to offer a better deal than the one he ultimately signed for. But, in the end, I'm pretty satisfied that Reyes was a good pickup.
Thoughts?
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the intangible benefit to ohman may be the ability to use him less exclusively as a
specialist. using reyes, who is more exclusively a specialist, will burn your bullpen a bit faster, by increasing appearances by your other relievers.
i would have rather seen ohman, also, but at some point the difference between the two becomes a hair-splitting exercise.
One point on the contracts...
you don’t know that the Cards could have signed Ohman for the amount he later took from the Dodgers. For example, the reason why he took less might be because Reyes had already signed and he had lost leverage.
Also, somewhere I’d heard that Ohman had gotten out of “pitching” shape. I don’t know if that’s actually true or if so, why that happened (injury, attitude, boredom, love of twinkies, etc.) Maybe that affected the Cards’ decision or maybe not, who knows?
In any event, I foresee that Trever Miller is not going to have a good year and that people on this board will be giving him the Franklin treatment from last year (when Franklin was blowing leads left and right). Not that I want this to happen, but I watched him in Houston during his last year and he was TERRIBLE.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Mar 31, 2009 2:00 PM EDT reply actions
The Cards
could have signed him 1 day earlier than the Dodgers did for that amount of money. Failing that, they still could have signed him for a 1 year major league contract rather than the 2 year contract Reyes signed. I still don’t understand why Reyes got a 2 year deal but, in the middle of spring training, it wasn’t b/c he had a ton of leverage. In fact, w/ Ohman and Beimel unsigned at the time, Reyes had little leverage. Signing any of them for 1 year as opposed to 2 is a missed opportunity and, as I pointed out here he seems to be better than Reyes anyway.
maybe the scouts liked him a lot
or there was some other connection
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 31, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
We
lost out on Joe Beimel, big time, A guy that can can get both left and right handers out, and even though he was used as a lefty specialist after the all star break last year, he still had a terrific ERA in 06 and 07 as a set up man, then to post a 2.02 ERA as a lefty specialist in half a season (with the other half being a set-up man) is phenomenal.
and only signing for 2 Mil with the nats!?!! (even though i’m happy its the nats) the cards could of easily gotten him for 2 years 4 million and perform better than what Reyes will do for us, i honestly believe.
oh well though, as long as Reyes does better than Flores last year we’ll be fine.
Cardwash Definition: Birds on the Nat.
OHHH YEAHHHH!!!!!!!
I'm not actually sure the numbers bear that out.
If we apply the same test to Beimel vs RHB (as I did against Ohman and Reyes) you get the following:
2006-2008 Joe Beimel vs RHB 480 AB .352 OBP
His career OBP vs RHB is .367.
So there’s a good argument that Ohman is marginally better against righties, although in reality they’re probably nearly the same pitcher. There certainly isn’t much reason to give Beimel a contract one year and 2.5m bigger than what Ohman got.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 1, 2009 5:54 AM EDT up reply actions
that's who I wanted to sign
Beimel… but Reyes is the new King
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Apr 1, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Your first sentence
just says that the Cards could have signed Ohman in addition to Reyes. Maybe, but I understood the OP’s post to be discussing an either-or (Ohman vs. Reyes) situation.
Your second sentence just assumes that Ohman would have taken a one-year deal at the time the Cards signed Reyes for two. You actually don’t know that, that’s just hindsight.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Apr 1, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes Ohman is probably better
But the difference between the two is really only a couple of runs max. Also given the volatility of relievers, Reyes could easily be better. I would actually rather have signed Reyes for 2 years at under market value, because he might be the first good LOOGY that we have had since Ray King. Or else it seems that we will continue to have to pick up the scrap heap LOOGY’s who may cost us like they did last year.
vivaelbeñsheets
I prefer Reyes
but I have really no reason for it.
Potato/potato
And this was an excellent first fanpost!
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
and....BEN SHEETS!!! **
**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)
haha, me too.
I like Reyes better, but I’m not sure why. I think it’s cause he was on the Devil Rays at one point, and I’ve always liked the Rays better than the Braves / Cubs; therefore, I like their ex-players better; therefore, I like Reyes better.
Well, I guess I do have a reason for it! It’s just not that good of one!
On with the (good) youth movement!
by aet15 on Mar 31, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
good enough for a rec
for the anti-Cubs logic
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
and....BEN SHEETS!!! **
**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)
Miller might be the best of the three
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Apr 1, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
And when Miller signed
Players were not desperate enough to take cut-rate contracts.
Counting the days 'till the first pitch.
by IL and StL Fan on Apr 1, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
didn't Ohman say he didn't like StL at some point?
nice fanpost doooooood
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 31, 2009 7:58 PM EDT reply actions
ah, it's just this video game for playstation.
there’s a character that says “dooood” all the time. not many people choose the double o over “dude,” so I figured I’d ask.
On with the (good) youth movement!
groundball rate differences
I wonder if Dunc senior really preferred the higher groundball rates?
Good post.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
I'm thinking that could be part of it
Also, Reyes’ stuff is more “Duncan-typical”. Whilst I think it’s maybe a bit of a myth that we ALWAYS go for deceptive guys with kinda weedy stuff who pound the bottom of the strikezone, you’ve got to say that Reyes (with his heavy reliance on the slider, high GB rates and his 89mph fastball) fits that archetype pretty well.
It’s also possible that Ohman (who reportedly had 6 suitors earlier in the offseason) ran out of leverage; perhaps he was asking for more like the 3m per year over a couple of years, and thus Reyes was cheaper when we took the plunge. As teams began to pick up the other lefties (Tyler Johnson’s sorted for the Mariners, Beimel went, Reyes went, Arthur Rhodes was gone) the Dodgers got Ohman for less than his market value. Perhaps if we’d had more patience we could’ve got Ohman (maybe just offer what the Dodgers did but add another year?) but Mo took his chance early, gambling on the possibility that Ohman would hold out for more cash and there was a chance we could miss out on ALL the LOOGYs and be stuck with Charlie F’ing Manning.
Because chicks dig the intentional base on balls.
by Felonius_Monk on Apr 1, 2009 6:01 AM EDT up reply actions

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