Ankiel in the #2 spot & who hits 9th
by Warcard on Mar 14, 2009 6:14 PM EDT
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PrintAs everyone knows the #2 spot is very important in the Cards line-up because of Albert hitting in the all important #3 position. I found it interesting today that Ankiel hit #2 with Duncan hitting clean-up. Schumaker continues to do a good job leading off but the #2 spot seems to be an audition. I know that Ankiel is not ideal because of the strikeouts but he did take a walk today and just maybe hitting in front of Albert would make him more patient. Many have said that the #2 spot in the Cardinal order is really like the #3 spot in the traditional order and that description just seems to fit Ankiel. He clearly has more speed than Duncan and probably has a better chance of scoring from 1B on the balls that Pujols is certain to hit in gaps. I'm sure the auditioning will continue and it will be interesting to see who ends up in this spot. Opinions!
Additionally, if Duncan does end up in LF flanked by Ankiel and Ludwick, then who hits in the second leadoff 9th position. Rasmus seems to fit that spot really well but with Duncan in the line-up who hits #9? Seems to me that the only logical option miight be K. Greene. Opinions!
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logical option for #9
Yadier Molina
My favorite lineup (Dunc-Ank-Lud)
1 Schu 2B
2 Ank OF
3 Pujols 1B
4 Lud OF
5 Mather 3B
6 Dunc OF
7 Greene SS
8 Pitcher P
9 Molina C
"Statistics mean nothing to the individual"
"You are what you eat and you clearly went out and devoured a big fat guy"
Maybe it goes without saying
but my first reaction was, “damn, 1-6 looks pretty solid.” Then it dawned on me that this lineup, aside from greene, is all home grown. Pretty impressive. I have been following and posting a lot about the lineups this winter but I am really looking forward to watching the offense this year.
Sorry to disagree
But I really don’t like Yadi in the 9 spot. I think him batting 7th is for the best. In the 9 hole, as the slowest guy on the team, Yadi only will slow down the speed of our leadoff hitter. I’m not saying Skip is gonna steal a lot of bases but come on. Even 1st to 3rd situations may take a hit with yadi in front of him. With Yadi in fron tof the pitcher, he really isn’t clogging the bases.
by Pujols Is A God on Mar 15, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
don't be sorry to disagree
Thats what this site is explicitly for: to exchange opinions and learn from each other while patricipating as the pasionate cards fans that we are.
In this lineup, I don’t love Molina in the 9-hole, but there are really no other better options, unless you want to put Schu down there and let an atypical leadoff hitter (Ank/Mather) exist. I don’t necessarily disagree with this train of thought but I can only remember one time last year where someone so atypical batted leadoff (I think it was Ludwick). But in the lineup that I have constructed, Greene/Dunc strikeout way too much to belong down there and their power would be wasted because of the lack of baserunners. The rest of the hitters are more balanced but I think they are strong enough hitters to belong in the more potent spots of the order, not to mention more at-bats with RISP for your best hitters. Yeah, Yadi’s speed is a definite problem but his low power/decent OBP combo screams 9-hole to me.
Not to be confrontational, but who do you think should bat ninth? Skip?
"Statistics mean nothing to the individual"
"You are what you eat and you clearly went out and devoured a big fat guy"
by jacksonian on Mar 16, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Cardinals...
don’t steal bases, so having a guy with Molina’s speed doesn’t really slow down the lineup. So what if Yadi doesn’t go 1st to 3rd on a Schumaker single to right. Let’s say Yadi doesn’t score from 2nd on the next single. What is the result? Pujols with nothing for the opposing team to do but pitch to him. I actually see it being a blessing in disguise. That’s just my take on it. Sure, it is disappointing to not have someone score from 2nd or to not go from 1st to 3rd (the only time it really hurts is when there are two outs, which Yadi should be able to get a better jump on contact and be able to take those extra bases – he is supposed to be in the best shape of his life).
I really like that lineup
although I think maybe switch Ankiel and Mather…
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 15, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I really like the plate discipline that Ank had displayed so far.
I like him in the 4 spot. His power is intimidating. Duncs power is scary as well.
I guess Ank had better legs so maybe he should hit 2nd.
*Rasmus is to CF as Longoria is to 3B*
that isn't really a reapeatable "skill"
I don’t think that he should be second though. Pujols should be second, Ankiel should probably be third.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 15, 2009 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Pujols
should, in my opinion hit clean-up, but that is irrelavant because he is going to hit third, the pitcher is going to hit eighth, and the second leadoff hitter is going to hit #9. I don’t like it, but that is just the way it is. If Rasmus were in the line-up. it is easy to see why Tony was discussing putting him in the 9th spot. However, without Rasmus in the line-up this team does not really have a second type leadoff hitter.
Another issue with this line-up is who hits in front of the pitcher. The pitcher is usually up there trying to bunt, and it certainly helps if the person on the bases has speed. Getting the guy from second to third is really difficult and is commonly thrown out on sacrifice attempts. Molina can handle the bat in either the 7th spot in front of the pitcher or in the 9th spot, but those appear to be postions where speed is important. I guess it also brings up the question as to where Molina is going to hit? I just can not see him in the 9th spot as a second leadoff hitter, and I have a hard time seeing him hitting in front of Albert. My guess is that he hits 8th in front of the pitcher with Greene hitting 9th.
The difficulty in trying to find the right player with speed to fill these spots illustrates that the Cards really are a power oriented team. I don’t think that many would argue that Schumaker, Greene, and Ankiel have the best speed if Rasmus is not starting. Mather filling in for Glaus adds some flexibiltiy, but when Glaus comes back this really is a power type team. It may also illustrate why Rasmus in the line-up might benefit the team more than Duncan in the line-up.
Albert will always hit from the 3-hole
TLR has discussed this on many occasions. Its where Stan Musial hit. It ensures the team’s best hitter sees the pitcher in the first inning. And with a hitter in the 9th spot, he effectively BECOMES a cleanup hitter for the rest of the game.
As for who hits 9th, it depends how the Cards break camp, and who is in the starting line-up. If Rasmus can raise his average a bit and keep strikeouts down, he makes the most sense.
I agree
I dont think you’ll see Albert anywhere but the 3-hole. I totally disagree with vivaelpujols, Albert is nothing like the typical 2 hitter.
by oneseasoncom on Mar 17, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions
But the "typical 2 hitter" is a facade
Read this, on the proper way to construct a lineup. Here are the highlights about the two hole and the 3 hole:
The Two Hole
The old-school book says to put a bat-control guy here. Not a great hitter, but someone who can move the lead-off hitter over for one of the next two hitters to drive in.
The Books says the #2 hitter comes to bat in situations about as important as the #3 hitter, but more often. That means the #2 hitter should be better than the #3 guy, and one of the best three hitters overall. And since he bats with the bases empty more often than the hitters behind him, he should be a high-OBP player. Doesn’t sound like someone who should be sacrificing, does it?
The Third Spot
The old-school book says to put your best high-average hitter here. The lead-off hitter should already be in scoring position and a hit drives him in. Wham, bam, thank you ma’am.
The Book says the #3 hitter comes to the plate with, on average, fewer runners on base than the #4 or #5 hitters. So why focus on putting a guy who can knock in runs in the #3 spot, when the two spots after him can benefit from it more? Surprisingly, because he comes to bat so often with two outs and no runners on base, the #3 hitter isn’t nearly as important as we think. This is a spot to fill after more important spots are taken care of.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 17, 2009 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ankiel is fine
in the 2 slot so long as they find someone else to hit there vs. LHPs. I guess Luddy would be the best fit against them. No good choices for #9.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
For April, I see this
vs. Righties
Schumaker 2B
Ankiel CF
Pujols 1B
Duncan LF
Ludwick RF
Yadi C
Greene SS
Pitcher
Mather 3B
At multiple times this spring, Mather has batted lower in the order, and given his set of tools (Speed + Power and total Athleticism), I see him potentially batting here. He’d be a strong RBI factor, and it sandwiches the pitcher spot with a good amount of speed. Khalil’s OBP may not be strong enough, but I think Tony likes Yadi’s ability to put the ball in play more consistently than Mather/Greene as a bigger feather for the catchers’ mask. If it’s a lefty pitcher we are facing, I do think you’ll see Schumaker at 9 though, I’m not sure who’d leadoff. Mather?
vs. Lefties
Ryan 2B
Ankiel CF
Pujols 1B
Ludwick RF
Mather 3B
Yadi C
Greene SS
Pitcher
Schumaker LF
We saw a lineup like this many times versus Southpaws last season and I don’t think there’s any reason to think otherwise.
When Glaus returns, the southpaw lineup is easily amended to have Glaus at 3B, probably in the 5/6 hole, with Mather either sliding to LF or to the Bench.
On a tangent thought, I think the whole Mather/3B thing will be interesting to see play out. Obviously, if he’s hitting well, I think he’ll play himself into a platoon in LF with Dunc (if Rasmus is in Memphis). If he’s not, we could see a number of different possibilities. All in all, i think this roster is ripe for the LaRussa-ing as he has lots of versatility, malleability, and potential.
It should be an exciting year
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Mar 17, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions
The vs RHP lineup
looks pretty good, but I think I would prefer to swap Yadi with Greene. I know Yadi is hard to bunt over, but I think it would be more important to have a guy in front of Greene who can score on a double. If we are in a super critical situation that requires Yadi to be bunted over then that is why the GOB invented pinch runners.
I think it would be a huge mistake to put Ank in an important position in the lineup vs. LHPs. He had a .268 OBP vs LHPs last year. No way do I want that in front of Albert. Put Luddy in there and drop Ank to 7 or 9. Switch Yadi and Greene. And surely you can’t be serious that you actually want Skip in the lineup vs. LHPs?
Unfortunately, I think your predictions are pretty accurate as to what we will actually have to endure.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...
K. Greene
While discussing the #2 spot – does anyone think that K. Greene might be a good choice? I know the book was that he strikes out to much but he has struckout one time before todays game. He is also hitting very well, has power, and would provide a nice L-R combination instead of two left-handed hitters hitting back to back.
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