Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Cal RB Jahvid Best Seriously Injured, Carted Off Field

Panic Attacks

Oh my god Oh my god Oh

JUPITER, Fla. (AP) — Albert Pujols said Sunday that the St. Louis Cardinals' commitment to winning will dictate if he re-signs with the club when his contract expires in two years.

"It's not about the money all the time," the first baseman said. "It's about being in a place to win and being in a position to win.

"If the Cardinals are willing to do that and put a team (on the field) every year like they have, I'm going to try to work everything out to stay in this town. But if they're not bringing championship caliber play every year, then it's time for me to go somewhere else that I can win."

 

The mood cycle I experience after every "Albert Pujols is not signed to a perpetually renewing contract" piece goes a little like this: I hyperventilate; expecting people around me to hyperventilate, I hyperventilate some more; I think about it; finally, I accept it, my heart a little weaker than it was before.

Now that I can think somewhat rationally about it: this is one of those situations that shows how much trouble, PR-wise, it is to be an incredibly rich, incredibly talented pro athlete. You can say it's a business, and people will get you for not caring about winning; you can say you care about winning, and people will get you for being, somehow, disloyal. Fans perform the same calculus players do all the time—we see if the team is doing something to reward our fandom and we revise it accordingly. I wouldn't spend hours a week watching and writing about the 2003 Pirates, and I doubt Albert Pujols would enjoy spending hours a day training and playing for them. Keeping it within that framework—not reading between the lines, not casting Pujols in the role of MVP-cum-media-manipulator, laying the groundwork for his eventual departure—it should be reassuring: the Cardinals want to win, Pujols wants to win, two great tastes continue to taste great together.

The valid concern is that Albert—fresh off his inexplicable sign-Manny campaign—might not know what a front office that's willing to put the Cardinals in a position to win looks like. But if the front office doesn't have anything to show for Pujols, Rasmus, Wallace two years down the road, with Carpenter's contract on the way out, they're doing it wrong, anyway. And then I breathe out. 

On a smaller, more immediate scale, there's Ryan Ludwick's scheduled arbitration hearing today. Those among us who are neither DeWitts nor hawk-eyed roster matrix watchers—new one tomorrow, provided the Ludwick situation is ironed out—haven't got a lot to worry about here, seeing as he's under team control for the foreseeable future, but the stakes are currently $4.5 million vs. $2.8 million. That would make it less than newsworthy—and I'm speaking here in the sans-context sense, since, with Octo-Mom (distressingly enough, not a superhero) currently taking up permanent residence on cable news, everything is newsworthy—but I guess February is the cable news network of baseball months, anyway. (Octo-Mom, I hear, is in the best shape of her career.) 

"Worst-case scenario," said Ludwick, "is that if you had told me I was going to make $2.8 million four years ago, I would have said, ‘Awesome."'

I almost always come away from a Ludwick quote liking him a little more, as a player, and I don't think his distance from free agency is the only reason. He's not a particularly witty or erudite interview, he just tends to say the kind of things we think we would say, if we were no-nonsense baseball players. That's the sort of luxury you're afforded when thousands of Cardinals fans don't hang themselves on your every word. 

0 recs  |  Comment 253 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Viva El Birdos

The Trade Bait Blues

Oct 2009 by the red baron - 669 comments

Patience...please!

Oct 2009 by chuckb - 457 comments

Trader Mo Redux

Oct 2009 by the red baron - 209 comments

Albert Pujols freakout #1

Oct 2009 by DanUpBaby - 647 comments

To Hit or not To Hit

Oct 2009 by chuckb - 709 comments

Comments

Display:

I was very Happy

to read what his Eminence had to say. It sounded to be like he would give a hometown discount to stay here as long as the Cards were committed to winning. How can any of us complain about that.

by nybirdfan on Feb 16, 2009 9:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Remember

and pujols has said this before, he has been spoiled with post-season play since he was there 5 times his first 6 years in the big leagues. He might have a different mindset if the cardinals weren’t in the postseason all those years. I look at Berkman, Griffey, Helton, guy who want to win, and perform well every year, but still play for their team regardless if they make the postseason or not, Helton’s a big case for comparison since he’s been with the rockies for so long to only go to the world series once.

Cardwash Definition: Birds on the Nat.

by cardwash on Feb 17, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this shouldn't even qualify as news...

I mean it’s ‘news’ the same way it’s news that he’s got a bad elbow that could give out at any time. The national media is just stirring the pot here.

The Manny thing was surely blown out of proportion.

There’s nothing to worry about, really.

by musial6 on Feb 16, 2009 10:06 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wonder...

Do you think that Pujols made the “no home team discount” comments before his current contract because that was his first (and i his eyes maybe *only*) chance for a big pay day? Now that he has the nest egg maybe he feels comfortable just playing for rings.

I mean, if in my job there was a chance that I could get hurt and never work again as an engineer, I think that I would take the chance and give no discounts. In that case it might be the only time in my life when I could make money doing what I was trained and/or naturally gifted to do.

SlamalamaJackADongWick cares very little about your draft pick standing-by gdm426

by FredbirdisaDork on Feb 16, 2009 10:12 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think he's just saying

that if the next few years we go to the playoffs again, like we usually do since he’s played in STL, and at least have a good showing in the playoffs, that he’d have no reason to go to another team. we have been as regular a contender as anyone else imo.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 16, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Like you, Danup, I began freaking out after reading Pujols' comments

But then, after re-reading it, I think Pujols tacitly endorses the front office’s approach:

“I want to win, like our fans want to win, just like our manager wants to win, our coaching staff, everybody in this clubhouse, the front office,” Pujols said. “If they change their strategy then I’m going to have to change mine, too.” (emphasis mine)

by Ray Lankford on Feb 16, 2009 10:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great call out

sometimes a single word can mean a whole lot.

by birdo rojo on Feb 16, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's no GM

And he knows it, which is good.

“When I’m a GM, I’m either going to get fired or I’m going to break the bank. That’s how I live. I’d try to bring everybody,” he said.

by Cardinal70 on Feb 16, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was also reassured by this one:
As long as they bring in talent, keep drafting guys and making moves here and there, then I don’t have to worry about that.

by liam on Feb 16, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seems like it gives the FO a little wiggle room, no?

Of course, if Mo decided to end the Cardinals’ participation in the draft, Albert may want to look elsewhere.

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To what extent are you reading this as an explicit endorsement of TLR?

La Russa’s agreement with the team is only through this season, right? Is Pujols tacitly lobbying for TLR to be retained at least through the negotiation period of his next contract?

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on Feb 16, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In addition

the article does note that Pujols gets along with Tony, likes his style, etc. I get the impression that Albert would not be displeased if Tony re-upped.

by ArkansasTravs on Feb 16, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think he gets along with Tony much more than many would like to admit

Having LaRussa around helps keep Albert around, but then again, if the reigns were handed to Jose then I think he’d be just fine as well.

Of course, I also think that as long as the skipper is someone who Albert can see has the right desire and Albert agrees with, I think he’d be fine. Albert isn’t a boat rocker but his words carry a lot of weight. He seems to be a great team player and could learn to love another manager like he does Tony.

Keep in mind, Tony’s the only major league manager Albert’s ever had and during that time things have gone pretty well for the big guy. He’s bound to think extremely favorable of LaRussa.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep,

Tony being his only ML manager certainly comes into this and, as you, I think Albert would definitely go for the idea of Jose taking over if/when Tony calls it quits. I don’t think the team can/should see Albert/Tony as a “package deal” by any means. Albert would certainly give any new manager a chance, I think.

by ArkansasTravs on Feb 16, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols staying or going

hinges so much on the success of guys like Rasmus and Wallace. I don’t think this point can be stressed enough. It seems the FO has decided instead of going out and trading for the Edmonds, Rolens, and Walkers of the world, we are going to bank on our in-house guys turning into those types of offensive players. It’s risky, but if it works out than we’ll be able to lock up Albert and he can retire in Cardinal red. If it doesn’t, it’ll be a shame to see him go to another team. I can’t even think of what team he would play for…DH for the Yankees? Or play 1st and have Tex DH? Ugh…..

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Feb 16, 2009 11:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Pujols wouldn't DH

he takes too much pride in his fielding and Tex is also an excellent fielder.

by STLRegalia on Feb 16, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They'd probably move Pujols to 2nd.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

actually, +2 since I watched both showings!

by ArkansasTravs on Feb 16, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so did i (tiwce)

that’s what inspired me.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

pardon my ignorance, but what is this from?

it sounds really familiar

capital letters suck.

by soccerfreak on Feb 16, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Blazing Saddles

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Feb 16, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols won't play any position other than first.

His elbow can’t take the constant throwing at 2b, 3b, etc.

My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...

by Taskmaster on Feb 16, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My bad.

I had no idea…..

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Try to remember that next time!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 16, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whew!

In that case I can breathe a sigh of relief!

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Feb 16, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Amaury Marti

says he’ll stick around if baseball lives up to his expectations.

by DanUpBaby on Feb 16, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

one more alternative

Also, if Rasmus and Wallace suddenly lose the ability to play baseball in the next year and a half, we now have enough depth in the farm system to make a big trade (ala Rolen, Edmonds) to continue being competitive and make Albert happy at the same time. Personally I hope it doesn’t come to that, but it’s another option for Mo.

by thp0344 on Feb 16, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is really good news but...

I think this is great, and actually completely in line with Albert’s personallity I don’t see him turning down a deal for around $150 million, do you?

However I think this competitive team will really hinge on how Rasmus devlopes and in a smaller part how Wallace does. If Rasmus becomes a very good to All-star CF then we have a solid player for cheap at a premium position. That would be huge because he could add cheap protection to Pujols in the lineup. If Wallace also works out then you have two cheap strong hitters in the line up and can spend the 20-25 million you save per year on the to the get the same production out of similar veterans, you can now spend on other hitters (SS anyone?) or a really good starting pitcher.

If Rasmus and Wallace dont pan out this whole “home grown” thing will be be not and the Cardinals will be in a very bad position, not just with Pujols but the entire team
I

by thoran85 on Feb 16, 2009 11:46 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Depends on Rasmus

And, more immediately, Perez…

by liam on Feb 16, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think you can say that.

I don’t think you can grade the FO’s attempt at making the team competitive based on Rasmus and Wallace meeting their expectations. That’s called second guessing and envokes the whole “hindsight is 20/20” thingy.

If they’re all in agreement (Albert too) that the moves they’re making are good for the team going forward, he can’t be pissed if Rasmus or Wallace or both flop. And, for the record, I think Albert approves of the team he’s got right now. I might have taken him a little time to warm up to certain things, but he’s strikes me as they type of dude who really likes his teammates as long at they’re busting their tails. He has a history of helping guys out with hitting and stuff, so if Rasmus and Wallace (and whoever else they bring up) works and shows an interest in getting better, I think he’ll be fine.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes but...

Well that was not really my point. I think you are right in that if Rasmus and Wallace are hard working players Pujols would certainly like them. What I am saying however is that to have a competitive team for the next 5-6 years a lot will depend on devloping cheap talent at important (expensive) positions. CF and 3B certainly qualify as important positions, so if the Cards can find two cheap good options then they will be in great position to compete and pick up FA that will allow the team to stay good.

If next year Rasmus is a pretty good CF and Wallace is able to handle 3rd that would give us a cheap and young CF, 3B, Ace Starter, and Catcher. At CF and 3B alone we would save 20-25 million. That money could be spent on a really good SS, 2B, Starter, or Closer.

Not to mention Perez and Motte which might be just as important because having a good closer and setup man can cost $15 million easy.

That means that at CF, 3B, 2 Bullpen guys, and a Starting Pitcher (Wainwright is signed very reasonably) the Cardinals could be saving 30-40 million that can be spent else where on the team to fill gaps and holes that will come up.

by thoran85 on Feb 16, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I see your point.

and really, now that i’m looking at it, as long as Rasmus and Wallace pan out (and with Wallace we’ve got a little wiggle room with Freese and Craig although their ceilings aren’t as high as Wallace’s) the only positions we’re lacking in having true depth is top end starting pitching (which could start to come around) SS, 2b and lefty relievers.

You’re talking about cost control at 5 of the 8 starting positions (with depth in the system for most of it) and a cost controlled ace, closer and RH relief guys.

Sorry, if this is exactly what you said, but typing it myself really helps it sink in and gives me even more faith in the whole Mozeliak/Lunhow operation than I already had.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I did a front page on this a couple months ago

there’s no way Pujols receives so little. He’ll get at least $200 and maybe 250 M. You’ve got to figure that he’ll get 8-10 years and 10 yrs and $150 is a pay decrease from where he is now. I’d put it at 8 years, $200 M at least, unless something horrible happens between now and then.

by chuckb on Feb 16, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's
the story to which I referred above. Derrick Goold asked about the possibility of Albert becoming the first $300 M ballplayer and the conclusion I drew was that he’d probably be worth it. There’s no way $150 is good enough and $200 will probably be quite low. Maybe he would resign for 8-10 years and $250 M. If so, that’s about as good as we’re going to get.

by chuckb on Feb 16, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

I read both articles and was just kind of pulling a number out without thinking of the years or the average money. Now that I think about it I guess that is really low even at 8 years. But I still think the Goold article is just way off. Yes, he COULD get 300 m from the Yankees or Red Sox (maybe) but I dont think he would hold out for that much.

I think his next contract will average out to be about 20m a year. Around 18m the first few years and then a few years of 22 or more for the last few. I also see the contract being for 8 years with option years for 9 and 10 at around 25m. So I would put the contract around 180-225m depending on the exact avg. and the amount of years.

And I just don’t see a way Albert turns down 200m from the Cardinals, do you?

by thoran85 on Feb 16, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He may say that 3-4 million per year isn't that big a difference

but the Red Sox are interested in moving Youkilis to 1st and getting rid of Lowell. If they offer 8/250, that’s a hefty raise, but then again, Pujols has invested so much into St. Louis, how can he leave?

My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...

by Taskmaster on Feb 16, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Would never happen

This discussion of a new contract for Pujols has to be done with the idea that this is an extension, and we are not signing Pujols when other teams are able to make offers. There is no question that the Yankees and Red Sox would out bid us for him. But if we make a good offer to him before his contract is up, it will be tough for him to turn down. Therefore he would never get that $250m offer from Boston.

by thoran85 on Feb 16, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lock him up now.

Give him an 8 yr front loaded extension. somewhere between $160-$185M.*

*disclaimer: I, in fact, have no contractual knowledge. Only a desire to never see #5 in a non-Cardinals uniform

by STLRegalia on Feb 16, 2009 11:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

MLBTR has a good story on 2009 FA

If you can look past the “trillion” dollar comment… I think that’s wrong…
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 12:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

In this political climate

A billion and a trillion are interchangeable terms, apparently.

by liam on Feb 16, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A trillion is just a thousand billions

A trillion is a thousand billions
A thousand is negligible compared to a billion (.0001%)
Therefore, a trillion and a billion are the same; at least, the difference is negligible

QED

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Truly

you have a dizzying intellect.

by liam on Feb 16, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I can't tell if

that’s the most brilliant thing I’ve ever read or the most asinine. Either way, I’m giving it a ‘rec’ for it’s complex simplicity.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my head hurts.....

trillions, billions and oxymoronic comments…… I picked a bad day to give up drinking.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Article originally said:
A total of $1,079,857,500 (yes, you’re looking at the number right, as in over a trillion dollars) has been spent so far this off-season…

That’s been since corrected, otherwise the jokes would still work, the party-poopers.

by liam on Feb 16, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

awe man....

oh well…. thanks for the update. (my head still hurts, though)

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The label "politician" gets thrown about so much these days...

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cheney

Is that you?

I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I'm trying to not be selfish about it, but to use it, OK? Jealousy will get you nowhere!

by Dave Barry on Feb 16, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No

But I have been known to do this

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

Honestly, when I first read the article yesterday, I didn’t give it much thought.

And when it’s all said and done, if he remains a Cardinal then fantastic. If he leaves to play someplace else, then sobeit. My life will go on, and so will the Cardinals.

Then there’s that whole Ewing Theory thing….

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought he officially

Re-named it the “Tiki Theory”. In any case, there won’t be any theories putting 10-wins back on the board.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Feb 16, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Ewing Theory can't apply to Albert

It states that teams will play better w/o their superstar, and with their superstar they never win anything of any significance. Eight seasons of Albert: 4 Division Crowns, 2 Penants, 1 World Series. They may win 10 seasons down the road after he’s gone, but immediately the team is not better w/o El Hombre.

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Feb 16, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he better fricking stay

st louis needs him for life

Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on Feb 16, 2009 12:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

per MLBTR and MLB.com

Ludwick canceled his trip for tomorrow to AZ. Deal is close to being done.

A deal likely will not be announced before late afternoon on Monday

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 1:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Here’s my theory: Tony has been screeming for more vets and to remain competative, this doesn’t seem to sink in to MO, so Tony goes to Albert and has him make some statements to the press or more specifically, MO. This probably isn’t the case, but I could see Tony using Albert to get through to him. Sound rather hairbrained? I thought so.

by CardFan@theLake on Feb 16, 2009 1:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You are correct.

That does sound hairbrained.

by Ray Lankford on Feb 16, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Today I saw a ballplayer

become more powerful that the FO of the St Louis Cardinals.

And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.

by tangledbrett on Feb 16, 2009 1:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It was a lame reference

to Gladiator.

And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.

by tangledbrett on Feb 16, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitt the Elder!!!

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." - Red Barber

by nomar34 on Feb 17, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LORD PALMERSTON!

And I say England's greatest prime minister was Lord Palmerston.

by tangledbrett on Feb 17, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Andrew Bonar Law

was their greatest Prime Minister.

by Czechguardsman on Feb 17, 2009 2:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DanUp has the right idea

that is the “perpetually renewing contract”. I actually thought about this a couple weeks ago. When the Cards and Albert sit down to talk over his next contract, don’t worry about the length of contract, just the amount/year.

I envision something along the lines of a 4 year contract (which will take him to, what, his age 35 year?) with whatever amount per year he requires/deserves/you pick the term, then a series of one year extensions as PLAYER options BUT with the caveat that each option is vested only if the player meets certain minimum performance criteria during the immediately previous season. e.g. if Albert reaches 400 PA along with some “quality” measure (OBP, OPS, OPS+, ?) he gains the right to exercise the next year option with some preset pay increase.

I don’t think anything like this has been done before, but, to me, it would give him a guarantee that, as long as he can be productive, he will have a contract. That, it would also seam to me, might be worth taking a few less $1M’s each year.

Am I stupid (don’t answer that)?

by ArkansasTravs on Feb 16, 2009 2:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

ArkansasTravs

I would never call you “stupid”-it’s not nice. I don’t know about the exact contract you’re talking about, but the Seattle Mariners at one time had a “life time” contract with Jamie Moyer. All Moyer had to do is tell them he’d like to come back. The Red Sox currently have the same sort of deal with Tim Wakefield. It seems like it can be done. Would the Cardinals or Pujols want to do it that way?

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Feb 16, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The difference is "how much is Albert worth?"

It’s easy to put a relative price on guys like Moyer and Wakefield since they middle rung guys. But Albert is currently the best. What’s his price tag? And what happens to that price tag when he’s 33? 34? 35? 40?

I doubt he’d still be the best when he’s 40, so I think it’s muddier than the Moyer and Wakefield deals. Plus, Moyer’s not even with the Mariners anymore, so what happened and why couldn’t that happen with Albert? That’s basically a player option every year and I really don’t like those so much. It’s always a lose/lose for the team.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well you can't do it based off of "quality" measures

But you could do it off of say 500 PAs.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Feb 16, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, that's right..

I forgot about not being able to use things like BA, OBP, OPS, etc. as qualifiers. That kind of throws a wrench in my idea. Even though I’d like to think we could trust Albert to know when to hang them up, having a “lifetime” contract without any qualifiers is certainly a lose/lose for the team.

Is it allowed to use something like “finishes in the top 10 (15) MVP voting” as a option trigger, or is that deemed another “quality” measure?

It is true that we don’t know what Albert will be worth when he is 40. However, IF you could use the quality triggers, then, if he’s not worth it, the option isn’t triggered. In addition, I would think such a contract would have modest increases (or maybe no increases) past some number of years.

by ArkansasTravs on Feb 16, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thats a great contract for the team

but not so much for albert. the idea of the long term contract is that it gives the player piece of mind. i don’t think he would be happy having to play for his contract every year. what if he gets hurt or has a down year for whatever reason? then he is up a creek.

not only that but i don’t think the players union would agree with that. there isn’t really a benefit to the player in a contract like that. if they are productive then they are almost guaranteed a contract for the next year anyway.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Feb 16, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And if he struggles in 2013

Don Tony can call on some “friends” to get out of the contract

by ubeddie on Feb 16, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I seem to remember the commish office banned lifetime contracts

after the Royals gave Brett, White and Wilson lifetime deals in the late 80’s or early 90’s

by Brock 938 on Feb 17, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching development as well

Lots of comments on Rasmus and Wallace development will impact Albert’s direction in 2012. I’d say the pitcher staff will as much if not more impact on the competitiveness of the team. All-Star 1B, CF and 3B can carry a team only so far.

by ubeddie on Feb 16, 2009 2:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

what if we tied pujols' extension to a trade deadline trade&sign of webb or halladay,

and said, look, prince albert. we want you here. we want to win. but if we want to get top-flight players, we need you to take ($15M, $18M, insert your figure), so we can extend this guy at ($XXM)?

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

danup, i have the paxil for your panic attack.

per goold via twitter:

watching brett wallace lace liners during bp. he and albert pujols hit shots that cleared two fences in left. wallace raking.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 3:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

great.....

but can he play 2B? Pujols can….. Wallace at 1B????….. j/k

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm all a twitter over the idea of The Mang & The Walrus hitting back to back

now if i could just control these panic attacks. unlike dan i actually pass out & when i wake up, someone has draw some very unflattering images on my body.

BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 16, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

boy did I pick a bad day to give up drinking.....

how am I now going to get rid of these imagined images of “unflattering images” that now adorn your body?

AHHHH! the inhumanity of it all.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm a little more than Twitter about

Razzle 2 (or as I like to put it, NozzleDrozzle—-NBA Jam back in the day saying “Razzle Dazzle” sounded exactly like “Nozzle Drozzle” I swear), Pujols 3, Sir Walruston 4, Studwick 5, Richard Alexander 6……………this makes me happy, sorry Troy you aren’t as exciting as .337 .427 .530.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Feb 16, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like what he said

“If the Cardinals are willing to do that and put a team (on the field) every year like they have, I’m going to try to work everything out to stay in this town. But if they’re not bringing championship caliber play every year, then it’s time for me to go somewhere else that I can win.”

I read Albert’s comment as a simple statement that the team must continue to compete every year, and bring in talent to remain at that level. The best Cardinal of this generation cares more about winning than money. Awesome.

by madridbend on Feb 16, 2009 4:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wallace and Pujols taking some cuts

Video here.

I’ve never heard of that “Pujols” guy, but Wallace looks great.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Feb 16, 2009 4:49 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

I know everyone knows this already but....

Damn, the Mang has such a sweet swing!

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Feb 16, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is GREAT

now if only we can get Dave McKay to be the opposing pitcher every day!

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 16, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's too busy

giving awkward ass-pats and neck squeezes at first base for that.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Feb 16, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

one man's awkward is anouther man's juuuuuuuust right

BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 17, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

man i wanna play baseball,,,,

BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 16, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I love watching him swing the bat.

by stlfan on Feb 16, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because you're easily impressed?

just kidding.

Personally, I had already seen the videos before the link was put up and besides, I thought the Wallace video was weird. it was talking about him taking grounders and then it showed Joe Mather (with locks a flowing) taking a grounder.

I also like how when it showed Albert hitting it said, “Albert Pujols: Cardinals Infielder”.

Maybe our whole move Albert to 2nd/3rd/wherever thing got them confused.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not the most impressive

video I suppose. But I’d never seen his swing. I’m pleased.

by spants on Feb 16, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

there

Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...

by RunninRedbird on Feb 17, 2009 8:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

albert wants to win, and be a cardinal

there’s a way to do both for albert, whether stl is in the postseason race or not.
best case scenario has us in the postseason race, but there will be years we are not due to carpenter / izzy 08.

are you willing to test how much albert wants to be a cardinal?

if you knew you had first shot at re-signing him before the other clubs, would you sign him to a series of one year contracts?
if a gentelmans understanding could be reached that “we will trade you into the postseason for the bounty, but you need to return with us next year”, would you be in favor ?
albert gaurantees himself a shot at every postseason and stl has the ultimate deadline trade chip in mlb every year.

i know it’s outside the box, go ahead and shoot it too swiss cheese :)

by ball in play on Feb 16, 2009 5:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

One word..... Security

your idea of one year contracts gives neither side security. Just go ahead and give him the 10 year $200MM contract plus naming rights to Mo future children and call it done.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

didn't hear albert mention security,

assumed his career earnings had already done that.
 
he never moves his family, because he knows where he will sign the following year. the stl FO would just have to trust he returns, knowing they have the bounty in their pocket IF traded, and he says he wants to be a cardinal. they afterall, are the ones trying to provide him with a post-season shot, regardless of how our season goes.
a hired gun, with a home base to work from :) it could benefit both sides, but would require trust, on an unprecidented mlb scale.

is this the right guy, to break new ground ? would take a player with a lot of character, to pull this off.

by ball in play on Feb 16, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If the team you're dealing with doesn't have the option to sign him

that “bounty” you keep referring to shrinks considerably, even for a guy like Pujols.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and alievates half his salary off the books

to go towards next year, IF he were traded. something will alwways be better than nothing, right?
best case scenario is he is never traded.

by ball in play on Feb 16, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

do you think anyone would pay half his salary

and give up a bounty of prospects if they know they are not going to re-sign him?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 16, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wouldn't they get a draft pick back though

assuming that he is a type A of course.

by Evilfrog on Feb 16, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and wouldn't that draft pick

be our draft pick. Meaning we’re trading our 1st round pick every year for whatever garbage we can get from a team that knows they can’t resign him, just to keep him happy and playing in the playoffs.

Whatever.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i didn't mean to make an arguement for it

Honestly. I think it’s one of the sillest I’ve ever heard. But sometimes I can’t help myself and have to hit to reply button to make a {worthless} point/comment.

by Evilfrog on Feb 16, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly, it was a great point.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Security for him

in case he get’s injured….. what happens then? SOL? Security for team KNOWING he is theirs for years to come….. post season or not.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good point, he may want 10 yrs

of course if we sign him 10 yrs, and he has a career ender, there goes the security for stl.

by ball in play on Feb 16, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the risks of long term contracts.....

Both sides understand that…… numbers cruncher have all the formulas for these things…. as a fan, I would just like to have the security of know the MANG will be wearing Birds on the Bat for years to come…. “Will he leave?” or “Will they trade him?” for years in a row would be maddening…. great for this board, but not for my me.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

can't do that

it’s called “tampering”.

"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo

by SleepyCA on Feb 16, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

right

we’ll offer you arb, if you agree to decline, is tampering too. but it has to be proven.

by ball in play on Feb 16, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

a little different.

In the case you’re talking about (arbitration), the player is under your control and you can have open conversations.

In the Pujols thing, he’s no longer your employee yet you’re making and agreement that he comes and signs with your team.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Teams in the NHL tried to point the finger at the Blues a couple of years ago

when they traded Doug Weight (and maybe Keith Tkachuk?). It was pretty well known that Weight was going to resign with the Blues after the season, but the difference here was there was no agreement. Just a player who really wanted to play for the Blues and a team who wanted to sign him as a free agent.

There was all kinds of talk about making it illegal to sign a free agent you had just traded away and stuff, but it never went anywhere since no one broke any rules.

Also, I’d like to say that any type of situation like the one presented above would first of all piss off all other teams to the point of not doing business with the Cardinals and secondly, I wouldn’t want to simply trust that someone is going to sign with us. Who to say he decides he’s tired of the whole thing and just doesn’t resign with the Cardinals? Then you’re shit outta luck since you’ve given all the power in the “relationship” to the player.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what does?

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"the power in the relationship to the player"

the benefit to albert is knowing he could be in every post-season. hopefully with us, but knowing that gives him the incentive to continue to return to the team he wants to be with anyways?

it’s an off the wall idea for sure, appreciate hearing the cons :)

by ball in play on Feb 16, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes, but I wonder if you could reconfigure this idea a bit.

you can’t have these “gentleman’s agreements” (btw, if it’s a gentleman’s agreement, it’s usually illegal; the only reason not to write it down in a billion-dollar sport, is b/c it’s illegal), but you could have a limited explicit agreement to retain exclusive negotiating rights until the November date.

e.g., we trade the rights to pujols for July, Aug, sept, oct of 2011, but we retain the exclusive negotiating rights to resign him until the date other teams would have begun negotiating with him. that doesn’t require pujols to sign with us. it puts the receiving team on notice about what rights they have and don’t have. as long as pujols, the cards, and the receiving team all agree, it’s above-board and I would imagine legal, unless the CBA specifically prohibits retaining negotiation rights.

this is more academic than useful, since I imagine if pujols goes into ST in 2011 without an extension, we’ve lost most of our leverage. i would not want to try to negotiate in Nov. 2011.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hot twit

Mr. Canada, Larry Walker, is back in camp as a special instructor. Even convinced him to put on a full uniform. Only No. 33 around.

per goold

yay! matheny and walker!

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 5:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It's crazy that he's in our camp

Considering he spent, what, 1.5 years in St. Louis?

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Will Clark used to come around too, I think

and he was only a Cardinal for like 2 months.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and goold follows up with . . .

ludwick signed just above the midpoint. to be confirmed momentarily.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It took Spring Training

but I think I finally see the utility in this twitter thing.

by liam on Feb 16, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

are you all all atwitter about it?

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 16, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he did that last year too

Wonder if Big Mac will ever make a showing… TLR tried to get him to come last year, but he didn’t want to deal with the publicity.

"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo

by SleepyCA on Feb 16, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also, it's interesting that they have pop warner in big league camp this year

I guess Oquendo is leaving early to go manage the WBC, but I wouldn;t be surprised to see Warner as the TLR replacement.

"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo

by SleepyCA on Feb 16, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I kinda wish LaRussa would just cut ties with Mac.

IMO, Mac is letting LaRussa hang himself because of a friendship. LaRussa, in all of his faults, is as loyal as a mule when it comes to his friends and he won’t back down from this McGwire thing for some reason of another. I don’t know if he truly believes Mac was clean or if he believes that if he keeps saying he was clean then people are going to start believing it, either way it needs to stop and apparently McGwire is the only person who can stop it. But, he chooses to remain silent while LaRussa does what he does, which is protect his boys.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

or maybe TLR thought Mac might have something

to contribute to making his 2008/2009 team better, and wanted to have the best team possible on the field.

At some point, whether or not Mac used illegal drugs (and he probably did), you have to recognize that he had unique talents and tremendous skill, and probably has something useful to say to guys like Wallace and Mather and Duncan etc.

"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo

by SleepyCA on Feb 16, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just because you're good at something, doesn't make you a great teacher.

But that’s besides the point since I know he has worked with Skip in the past and I guess that worked out.

Anyway, I’m talking about LaRussa’s reputation in this whole PEDs thing. Would you let someone who you consider to be a great friend hang themselves publicly over and over when you know what they are saying is false? If you would, I wouldn’t consider you a very good friend.

Who cares about Mac coming in for a couple of weeks as a hitting instructor. Other than the fact that it would yet again be a media circus for the team to deal with.

LaRussa’s going out of his way to save McGwire’s reputation because he’s a great friend to him, but unfortunately McGwire isn’t returning the gesture. Even if its a private phone call to LaRussa to tell him to knock it off. Then again, maybe he has told him to knock it off and LaRussa’s just being his stubborn old self. But it does make LaRussa look foolish every time he speaks out in support of McGwire.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of PEDs

A few friends and I are talking about traveling around the southeast this summer to catch as much minor league ball as possible, particularly in the Carolinas (they all live in Charlotte, the bums!). Anyways, it got me to thinking about my hometown’s minor league franchise. I knew there were some pretty big names to come through town, but I didn’t realize that my hometown was possibly a major steroid haven in the late 80s/early 90s. Check the list out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntsville_Stars#Notable_former_players

Canseco, Giambi, McGwire, Tejada…all of them have been implicated, and most of them pretty recently.

On a last note, before you all get excited about half of the Brewers’ starting lineup being out the first 50 games of the season for ‘roids, I should point out that the four guys I mentioned above all came through town before the team changed affiliates from the A’s to the Brewers.

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1.) he was great at something, I wouldn’t say just good.

2.) He’s been helping other players for a while now in the offseason. Skip wasn’t a once off, it was just a phone call. Holliday’s been getting personal help during his offseason conditioning this year after the trade. Mark’s been said to be an excellent hitting instructor.

I think Tony thinks if he can wear some of the brunt of the circus by talking pubically about it then if Mark does show up then it won’t be as bad as it would have been should Mark just show up without it. Who knows what will happen.

and as far as who? I sure would.

Send Greene to Mark

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1.) he was great at something, I wouldn’t say just good.

Well, that’s the million dollar question, isn’t it.

Was he really great, or was he just good with some help?

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he was great

there’s little doubt of that. Anyone who thinks his OBP, one of the highest in baseball history, was steroid induced is delusional. Steroids or not, how many of his 550+ homers do you really think occurred b/c he took steroids, if indeed he did? McGwire was a great player and this great steroid debate only serves to mask what a great player he truly was.

by chuckb on Feb 16, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess we'll never know will we?

But, since we can’t talk about McGwire’s past (which would include any form of denial by him) we can’t quite know how many are in question. So, I really don’t feel too bad for him since he made things worse for himself with that ridiculous thing he did in front of congress.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 17, 2009 5:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hate it when people point out others' typos, but this one is just too funny
I think Tony thinks if he can wear some of the brunt of the circus by talking pubically about it then if Mark does show up then it won’t be as bad as it would have been should Mark just show up without it.

Emphasis mine. How does one talk pubically, anyways???

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mumbled?

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

“very carefully”

been a long day, bad typo

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hasn't Schu

been working with McGwire the past few off seasons?

by spants on Feb 16, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Skip and the Duncan boys both have worked with Mark

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What sucks

is that he spent the winter helping Holliday and Crosby(I think?) on the A’s get work in and get ready batting wise, I wish it was our boys he was working with.

That’s the thing that pisses me off about the whole thing. Is he getting punished for the smoke and mirrors around PED use? Of course, he’s not in the hall.

But he doesn’t owe the media jack shit. They rode his back when he was hitting them, they coined in, ESPN made money and had bites, so did everyone affiliated. None of them asked questions during. Why would they? It was essentially the MLB version of the ‘good life’.

Now that the times have changed, they control keys into the hall and have voted accordingly, he doesn’t owe them shit.

It’s insane that they would make a circus out of it should he be down helping our boys. he should be about to say “Just leave me be and let me help this team” and that be that.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who said he owes the media?

And I’m sure the media would just say “Okay, Mark. You’re right. You’re a human being. That’s fair.”

In what world does "Just leave me be and let me help this team" actually work?

Personally, I don’t want his help. You guys are making him out to be the difference maker like he’s the greatest hitting instructor ever to live. But there’s one problem. He really doesn’t seem interested in doing it on more than about a one-on-one basis. Plus, we’ve got hitting instructors and they’re pretty darn good. Why force the issue with someone who doesn’t want to do it?

Could he help? Yeah, maybe. But he doesn’t want to. Which is obvious since LaRussa brings this up just about every year and I’ve yet to see McGwire show up for Spring Training. And if there’s a person out there who he should be interested in helping, it’s Tony LaRussa who has done everything within his control short of writing a book describing how he’d sneak into Mac’s hotel room at night and give him steroid shots while he slept to clear Mark’s name yet he does nothing to show his gratitude.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No one has said he’s to be a difference maker. I contend he’d be an asset. To that we can disagree.

I also don’t think there’s anything saying that he doesn’t, other than not wanting to get the media circus involved with the team. It’s a catch-22

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then we're kinda in agreement.

We both think he’d be an asset, but he brings with him a media circus which probably undoes what he brings to the team.

Asset + Distraction = What’s the point?

Especially, when there are plenty of other guys out there who are just as much an asset as McGwire who don’t bring the negative attention with them that he does.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Asset + Distraction = What’s the point? is your contention

for me it’s

Asset + Media can go fuck itself, it says it’s piece one vote a year = Play Ball.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Media has its control over mark "admit and ’we’ll see’ is the mantra. That’s fine for the hall, but they gained over that era riding his back specifically .

Beating him or the team he helps down with bullshit questions in Spring Training isn’t ok. IMO

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But it's going to happen.

You can bet on it.

If he comes to camp with the team, the media’s going to be all over it. They’re going to ask LaRussa a billion stupid-ass questions. Probably Ankiel, too. Doesn’t make it right but it does make it reality.

And, imo, why would you do it? There are plenty of hitting instructor (even one’s better than him) who don’t bring their own distraction parade with them, yet you want to bring him in anyway. That doesn’t make any sense.

Sure the guys can say no comment but if you never bring him in, you don’t have to do the circus thing and have players not comment or whatever.

How about we let the team prepare for the season as opposed to avoid questions about McGwire?

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s where I think we’re arguing two different things. I’ve never said do it without concern of the scenario it’ll create. I’m saying it’s bullshit that he can’t just be. because I feel the media owes them that, as mentioned above.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

which is fine.

I understand the way it should be. I’m just concerned about the way it would be.

I guess I’m just too much of a realist (pessimist?) to look past reality. Sure, it’d be great if things happened the way they should in a perfect world but they seldom do.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed.

Mark shouldn’t fess up or offer anything he doesn’t want to, but I really wish he’d smile to ESPN et all and say “You played like a lost dog and sniffed my ass while going for that record, you pissed on my leg because I didn’t give you the answer you "had to have”, and now you’re sniffing my crotch because I happen to be around. Go find your bitch to chase, I hear ARod is just down the road"

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“…. and if you’re lucky, Farve is in his bedroom. The story could last all Sports Center”

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Other than throwing ARod under the bus

I would love to hear him say that.

Look at Jason Giambi and Andy Pettitte. Both guys admitted and apologized and the whole thing pretty much went away (well, Giambi apologized, but we’re not sure {wink wink} what he was apologizing for).

If you call ‘em on their b.s., you’re going to win more people over than if you continue to hide and refuse to “talk about the past” because if you don’t want to talk about the past then I guess I shouldn’t think about the past and the past is when you hit all those home runs so if I’m not thinking about your past, I cant’ put you in the Hall since I can’t think of any thing in your future that merits an induction.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not throwing ARod under the bus, they were sucking his tit well before SI got the scoop.

To be fair into this conversation, Mark’s never said anything about himself and the hall as far as I know, so it’s not like he’s even upset about it.

I’m just using it as rationale as that is where the media has had its say, so its say no longer should apply, because their say regarding the hall was ironically over an era they largely celebrated at the time and are upset because they “didn’t know”

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I got what you were saying.

I’m just saying I’d love to hear him say what you wrote, just leave the ARod thing out. No sense in throwing him under the bus when the target is the media and not ARod.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

It seems the me that Jeter is the one the sports media fellate, not ARod, They say ARod’s not dedicated, not “clutch”, Mr. Regular Season, etc. He ihas always been far form the media’s golden boy.

Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.

by Gregatron on Feb 17, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"He really doesn’t seem interested"

And you know this, how, exactly?

"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo

by SleepyCA on Feb 16, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because he told me.

is that what you’re looking for? You want to try to catch me in a “you don’t know unless he told you” situation.

Really?

I can’t draw a conclusion based on the fact that LaRussa has bent over backwards in the media for the guy and then constantly talks about how great it would be to have him as a hitting coach or hitting instructor, yet he he’s still not our hitting instructor?

Fine.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"you don’t know unless he told you" situation

lol. just lol.

"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo

by SleepyCA on Feb 16, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, it's hilarious I'm not allowed to form conclusions based on actual events.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's hilarious that you

were talking out your arse and then acted annoyed to be called on it, and then used the fact that you were doing so as some kind of moral shield.

to paraphrase, “don’t make this into some kind of "i can’t talk out my arse” thing". lol. Have fun with that, just don’t pretend you are doing anything but.

"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo

by SleepyCA on Feb 17, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Did I do something that offended you?

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 17, 2009 5:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this whole thing is not ver y specific

you are both making statements without much of an argument, at least that’s what it seems like.

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Feb 18, 2009 2:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ludwick signs
ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark reports that the deal is worth $3.7MM and carries another $100K in incentives.

by OKCARDSFAN_411 on Feb 16, 2009 6:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Was just looking over the "provisional" rosters for the WBC

and noticed Adam Ottavino on Team Italy.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 7:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Charity?

Is it possible to lend more incentive to Albert Pujols via charity?

If I recall correctly, donations to charity are not taxed. We all know the work Pujols does outside of the ballpark – would he take any sort of pay cut if the Cardinals forwarded some cash to the charity or charities of his choice?

by leefyg on Feb 16, 2009 7:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i earlier proposed that fans should start a "retain pujols fund" and, if he signed, the money would

go to his charity of choice. if not, it would go to the united way. it would be an interesting way to put some moral pressure on him.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 7:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That seems kinda low

He’s a big autism awareness guy, right? “Re-sign with us or autism research doesn’t get this large sum of money”

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not that giving that money to the United Way is low

But it almost seems like bribing him in an unethical way to me.

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

money in exchange for work is called pay.

money to somebody else is bribery? obviously, it’s supposed to make him think twice.

we have a perverse sense of justice if it’s okay to pay somebody $25M/yr to play a boy’s game professionally, but it’s inappropriate to pay, say, $20M to the player and $5M to a charity.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The idea of donating to charity is fine by me, and that's not what's hanging me up

But you said it would “put some moral pressure on him.” Something about that just bothers me.

This analogy may not be worth anything, but here goes. Suppose your boss offers your family $10K if you stay at your company, but if you leave for a rival company, he will give the $10K to Henderson’s family. Both families could use the cash, so if you decide to leave for the other company, you know someone will get helped out. However, you just can’t help but think “Man, that $10K would help our family out alot.” You don’t see any problem with that?

The catch being, that in Albert’s case, he could easily donate the exact amount we raised to his charity, and it wouldn’t put hardly a dent in his bank account (assuming we don’t raise like a billion/trillion dollars).

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

how is this $10K different from salary? or a signing bonus?

Aren’t those common features of capitalism? i think the problem you’re having is that we don’t usually coerce people into doing good things. we hope people do them freely. but isn’t that a strange thing to say, that it’s okay to coerce people to do things that don’t ultimately help anybody (a signing bonus to work at one firm over another), but not okay to coerce them into doing something good?

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess if one charity is counting on that money and doesn't get it

That’s my hangup.

Have you seen “Thank You for Smoking”? Maybe an alternate solution would be for St. Louis fans to all donate to a fund, and then once it’s all collected, the money is donated to Albert’s charity, regardless of whether he re-signs with St. Louis or not. That way, no charity expects money and doesn’t get it, but he still feels the pressure to re-sign.

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But if they get it no matter if he signs or not.

then there’s no pressure to sign, right? It’s not like he’s asking us to do it? Actually, he asks us to donate. Not because he’s a Cardinal, but because it’s the right thing to do in his opinion.

But the great thing about charities is I get to choose who i give my money to and I’m sure Albert understands that completely.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe pressure wouldn't be the right word

But, if, out of the kindness of our hearts, Cardinal nation donated a boatload of money to Albert’s favorite charity, in the name of him re-signing with the Cardinals, it may nudge him to play for us a little more.

Honestly, I’m just trying to find some middle ground with tom s.

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly, I think this is all silly.

I’m sure St. Louisians donate a shit load of money to Albert’s charity as is and people should never feel pressured by an outside entity to give money to one charity over another or at all.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow. "no one should ever feel pressured by an outside entity

to give money to charity . . . at all"?

if you’ve ever worked at a non-profit, i’m sure you know money doesn’t just roll in the door unrequested. outside pressure is how it gets done.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Which is the main reason why donation fatigue sets in. Response over romance.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really.

The non-profit organization isn’t holding anything over my head (except maybe my guilt, but they don’t know me) in exchange for the money.

There’s a difference between asking for money and trying to convince people your charity is a good place to give your money, and saying if you give us money, we’ll give you this which is something you really need or want.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so, if i have a cardinals baseball ticket event for charity,

and people bid at auction for baseball tickets, and the proceeds go to a given charity, that’s somehow illegitimate?

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be if your event was the only way

people could get tickets and you we’re allowing people to bid over face value (which would be, in essence, asking them for more than the ticket is worth). Keep in mind, you’re event is the only way people can buy tickets.

They have the choice to go pay well over face value (which they usually do) for something because they know going in the money goes to the charity.

If you want to buy the tickets and sell them for face value or below face and then donate the money to charity, who cares? But when you force people to give extra on top of the ticket (and that’s what would happen since you’re the only ticket avenue in town) then it’s “illegitimate”.

but, that’s not what’s being asked in the Pujols question. You’re asking people to donate to his charity to convince him to sign and if he doesn’t sign, they don’t get the money. Or at least that’s how the question was originally worded.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so if i'm dealing in a unique good, it's illegitmate.

so, no more naming the dorm after yourself at your alma mater. no more “dinner with albert pujols” auctions, etc.

i don’t see the distinction. this would rule out lots of legit charity events.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You know what.

You win. The constant splitting of hairs has worn me out and I gotta start thinking about going to bed since I’m get up at 4am.

And for what its worth, you examples keep getting further and further away from what we were talking about but maybe that was the plan all along.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As I remember

tom suggested this is a fan and an StL community based fund, not one funded by the Cards. (Tom, correct me if I’m wrong.)

It doesn’t seem unethical to me. It goes to charity either way. I know I would kick in $20 at least.

Gregatron is not responsible for any of the crap he just wrote.

by Gregatron on Feb 16, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What happens if he doesn't re-sign?

Do we take our money back?

Sorry kids, the big guy decided he wanted to play in New York…..

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it goes to another designated charity.

i threw the united way out there as a proposed charity.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So, if he signs I give my money to his charity

and if he doesn’t, I still give my money but this time it goes some place else?

Why don’t I just pick my own charity and eliminate the middle organization who’s going to have to take a percentage for operating costs?

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

because it would put no pressure on pujols to sign here.

and also, it might spark people to give who wouldn’t otherwise give to charity.

that way, instead of having endless handwringing threads here and on cardstalk, etc. about what happens in november of 2011, people can channel their energy into something productive. so, to the next person who says, “oh my god, manny ramirez just signed for $XXM, we’ll never sign pujols,” you say, go to this website and give $10 instead of worrying.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If it puts no pressure on Pujols to sign

then what’s the point again?

I’m supposed to give to charity? OK.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry, i wasn't clear.

just giving directly to charity puts no pressure on pujols.

giving to the fund, which remains in escrow, puts pressure on pujols, because if he signs with the team it goes to his charity. if he signs elsewhere, it goes to another charity.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so the idea is to use a charity (and thus the kids/people involved) into bribing him in with a fund?

I wouldn’t blame him if he was offended.

Personally, I’d rather see a massive parade to the arch in support of keeping him.

That aside, I do think that there should be a way for if someone says “sign sheets” they donate into an account that sits in hold until the money is there. If the fervor to get Sheets was so massive, the fan base can pay for it directly.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

again with the "bribe". Money for work is not a bribe?

and i think most charities would be happily “used” if it results in their getting the donations that sustain them.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

money for work is a contract, not a bribe.

If you told me. “Work here in St. Louis and I’ll donate to your charity.” My gut reaction comes back to “If you can afford to give to charity now (mine or another), then what do I have to do with it, do it. They clearly need it”

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bribe, noun.
1. money or any other valuable consideration given or promised with a view to corrupting the behavior of a person, esp. in that person’s performance as an athlete, public official, etc.: The motorist offered the arresting officer a bribe to let him go.

the only difference between a bribe and fair payment is that a bribe causes someone to do something “corrupt” or “illegitimate.” is playing for St. Louis illegitimate?

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

depends if you consider having money avail for a charity, willing to give it to a charity but only under consideration of a baseball player playing for a team – legitimate

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miss X --

we understand that you have three uninsured children. if you come to work for us, we will make sure they get the health care that they need to grow up strong and healthy. they won’t die for lack of medical care. you will be able to house and feed your family. come work for us.

of course, if you don’t, your children will not have health care, a home to live in, or enough food to eat. your choice.

Corporation Y

If you think that’s okay, and this is not, then you need to rethink your moral values.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miss X —
we understand that you may like to work in another city. We would like to keep you here, so we have seen a family that has three uninsured children. if you stay here, we will make sure they get the health care that they need to grow up strong and healthy. they won’t die for lack of medical care. you will be able to house and feed your family.

If you don’t, they don’t.

You’re setting a false premise with your argument. You need to include someone else in need to benefit as a byproduct of staying here as a ransom to stay here.

and do keep in mind, I’m enjoying a debate and on my side there’s nothing heated about it, but I would appreciate my “moral values” being out of the discussion, thanks.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it wasn't intended to be personal. sorry.

i could have phrased that better. “we as a society” was more what i meant. the collective “you.”

what’s the moral difference between my kids and somebody else’s kids? they’re both third parties. it’s coercive in either sense. if anything, my concerns about my own kids tend to be more coercive.

the only difference i see between your example and mine is that it’s not familiar. i think the difference is that my example is just as appalling, but we’ve gotten used to it.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There is no moral difference. There is more of a difference in the example however.

If this was about financially supporting his MLS team that’s he’s an investor/owner? into that’s one thing. “Stay and St. Louis and we’ll buy the same number of tickets to the MLS team”.

Sounds a lot better to me. At least in this case it doesn’t feel like a ransom on money that should be given to the charity to begin with, for reasons that don’t concern something silly as where a player signs

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and the end result is that it goes to

a for-profit entity and not a non-profit.

i don’t see how that’s a moral improvement.

by tom s. on Feb 16, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i would much rather see MLS tickets as ransom over autism research (for an example).

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

for being a Cardinal fan

it is really hard to agree with anything you say

by Retire51 on Feb 17, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Um,

What are you guys talking about? I’m confused – how did we go from charity to ransom?

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Feb 16, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, we're way off topic and I'm surprised we haven't heard about it yet.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

although what else can you expect in a post

that starts out with a panic attack other than complete chaos?

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Porn

but I was disappointed :(

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

then you're just going to have to adjust your expectations......

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

already did, damn past tense.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

-three- two

I’m not and wasn’t appalled, and I do give already, though that doesn’t matter regarding this whole convo

I just disagree that it should be used as a card, ransom, bribe, whatever to get him to stay.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

SB Nation's formatting never works when you want it to

Only when you don’t want it to

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

 it’s a pain in the -ass-

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

This was my first post on VEB and did not expect it to receive much response at all, let alone degenerate into bickering :) ..my apologies.

I did not mean this in the sense of it being a bribe or anything to Pujols, more like an incentive based purely on good will. ==

Charity or charities of his choice get world/national/regional/local attention. +1

Pujols COULD use his own money, but I was under the impression that, if it came out of his earnings, it would be taxed. If the Cardinals donated the money directly, the charity would conceivably receive not only the extra positive media, but extra money as well?

Even could do a package deal – the Cardinals set up an official link on their page going directly to the Pujols Foundation donation page or something similar (if it’s not already there? haven’t seen it). I am not into the marketing field, so I’m sure someone could easily come up with something quite effective that would earn a lot of money for a plus cause.

by leefyg on Feb 17, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why am I laughing at this?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2009/news/story?id=3911165

I hope it’s not life- or career-threatening (and it probably isn’t), but seriously, is he made of papier mache?

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 7:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

maybe he read the Pujols story & it got to him too

BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 16, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't you think

that with all of the doctors he’s seen, and with all of the medical procedures he’s had done, an irregular heartbeat would have been discovered at some point?

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dammit Otto, you're an alcoholic

Dammit Otto, you have lupus

One of those two doesn’t sound right

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw him in concert

a few months before he over-dosed.

Always thought he was so damn funny.

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He was the best

I feel like his comedy style matched my personality perfectly. He didn’t get into long, drawn-out stories. His humor was pretty dry and to-the-point.

RIP, Mitch

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I always liked the bit

about how Pringles originally wanted to sell tennis balls. But on the first day of business, a truck load of potatoes showed up and Pringles (being the laid back company they were) said “Fuck it! Let’s cut ’em up!”

Meeting is adjourned. Oh I am sorry sir, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

No, you say that, Governor.

What?

Meeting is adjourned.

It is?

by Tackle Box on Feb 16, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My favorite

“I think Bigfoot is blurry, that’s the problem. It’s not the photographer’s fault. Bigfoot is blurry, and that’s extra scary to me. There’s a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside. Look out, he’s fuzzy, let’s get out of here.”

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw a seagull hanging out by a lake

I said, “Don’t worry, dude. I won’t say shit.”

by adiueordie on Feb 16, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love this site!

exposed to something new every day. I’m not huge on stand up comedy, but I youtubed him and laughed till I cried. I love verbal irony. He was brilliant. And I got princess bride in here again tonight too. yay.

mel

by mel1975 on Feb 16, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i laughed so hard I probably woke up my neighbors

from fucking house to mitch in 3 comments….brilliant.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Feb 17, 2009 1:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno...

makes me think of Darryl Kile, to be honest. I’ve never understood how his heart problems could have been missed…

Felipe Lopez - next year's Joel Pineiro (on another team, thank you Mo!)

by DiscoJer on Feb 16, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A few drops left in the Oil Can?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Oil-Can-Boyd-wants-another-chance-at-the-bigs-at?urn=mlb,141780

Why not Mo? 15 minutes for a tryout… Gives a story to take the place of when we realize that the lefties in the pen might not cut it, that 3rd base and someone behind Albert is a weakness until probably end of April, Carp’s wing might be held on with duct tape and gum, and 2nd base may be bigger hole than Jenna Jameson.

From a PR standpoint, it’s gold for a news cycle.
From a baseball perspective, it’s madness…but we could use a little more colorful madness.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Feb 16, 2009 10:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Your link fixed

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and I say

If you’re a FA and don’t have a team, but want a team to work out with, no promises but come down to our camp and let’s see what happens. We don’t have a large ST camp this year, let them all come down.

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Best quote in the comments

“He’s better than Barry Zito.”

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Feb 16, 2009 10:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

One of these days, someone is going to ask Barry Zito why he's smiling

He’ll respond: “Because I know something you don’t know. I…am not left-handed!”

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 16, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

And...

My name is Inigo Montoya…you killed my father. Prepare to die.

I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. ~Bill Veeck

by bukowski on Feb 16, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and then Barry will ask a grinning Corey Patterson why he is smiling

“Because I also know something you don’t know. I…. am also not left-handed!”

by Retire51 on Feb 17, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you are on quite a roll here lately

and to think, you went to school in Georgia…

quit making me give those recs!

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

and....BEN SHEETS!!! **

**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)

by mattyfrommo on Feb 17, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No past-tense about it

Still in school in Georgia, for another 15 months…

The artist formerly known as...
Mr Redbird @ Viva El Birdos
PowerOfDixieland @ Track Em Tigers, other SEC blogs

by jd is legend on Feb 18, 2009 10:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I lol'd

"Among the early arrivals of position players Sunday were Most Valuable Player Albert Pujols and fast-rising No. 1 draft pick Brett Wallace, perhaps the third baseman of the near future. .

Pujols, spying outfielder/infielder? Skip Schumaker at a nearby locker, cracked, "I hear you’re playing second base. Make sure you don’t blow out my hamstring. Every throw right at the chest." Link

One Century down, next on its way. Cardinals '09 : Preserving the Cubs tradition.

by AdjustedExpectations on Feb 16, 2009 11:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

never get into a battle of wits with a Sicilian

when DEATH is on the line …..ahahha..ahaha. ehhh!

by Retire51 on Feb 17, 2009 6:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Stl_ia_card_45_-_dark_small
Jeff Pearlman Thinks Of Hair Clumps When He Thinks Of The Thief McGwire
Black-spider-monkey_small
Losing my religion (w/ baseball)

Recent FanPosts

375830-r1-025-11_011_small
Anybody read Bob Gibson's new book yet?
Flanders_small
Yadi2first
Small
40 Man Question..
Cathybachebay1_small
The current Busine$$ of Baseball...how long can it last?
Avatar_small
VEB CheBird T-Shirt for Sale - Red or Powder Blue, CLEARANCE
Stl_ia_card_45_-_dark_small
October Lore: One In A Million
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
A Team of Free Agents
St-louis-cardinals_small
Report: LaRussa Will Return

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >