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1993 Mark Whiten vs. 2002 Mike Cameron

With steroids on mine and everyone's mind after A-Rod's public confession, I noticed something between two games I've watched on the MLB network today.

The stark difference between the athletes playing in the 1993 Cardinals vs. Reds game and the puffy, juicy spongelike athletes playing on the 2002 Seattle Mariner team.

Mark Whiten's four homeruns were fastballs on the inside part of the plate that he put good wood on which modestly cleared the walls of Riverfront Stadium.  Whiten had a solid frame on him but was very slender and lean. The home runs he hit, save for maybe one, were a case of him just mashing a fastball that caught too much of the plate.

The men considered to be power hitters on this edition of the Cards were guys like Todd Zeile and Gerald Perry. Again solidly built gentlemen, but looking more like you and me than Mr. Olympia.

The game following this one was the 2002 White Sox/Mariners game where Mike Cameron goes deep four times. Wow what a difference 9 years make.

First home run was of course by a man who I believe perfectly illustrates how steroids can make an average player an all star... Bret Boone. The pitch he hits is a high fastball in on his hands, he takes a swing that is a good hack but has a hint of defensiveness to it. It appears to be a flare that would end up about 270 ft. down the right field line. Something that you see Yadier Molina do often. But what happens? The ball keeps carrying and carryin and carrying and plops over the right field wall at Comiskey.

Boone's puffy balloon like body trots around the bases. Cameron hits a home run later in this inning that  initially looks to be a deep flyout to centerfield that he just didn't get enough wood on, another pitch on his hands. But again, it floats and floats and reaches just over the cf wall.

This innning ends with two more home runs, one by each of these players. 10 runs are scored in the first inning, it wasn't all the result of the long ball but the inning never would have gotten to that level without those cheapies.

The play by play guy is explaing in amazement how this seemed almost "inhuman." He probably didn't know at the time that it actually was.

As the game is still playing in front of me it looks more and more obvious that a majority of the M's players are so juicy they are about to pop. I mean I have nothing to back this up but I remember wondering how these guys were so good with what seemed to be average players and has beens.

Boone and A-Rod have already been connected to PED's and the more and more of this stuff comes out the more you realize guys talk to each other about it. Again, tt seems very obvious to me that the clubhouse of the early 2000's Mariners teams that were very sucessful were were littered with needles and syringes.

Look at this list of players from 2000-2002: A Rod, Jay Buhner, Boone, Cameron, Edgar Martinez, David Bell (weird how he's kind of disappeared? And he was in a McGwire clubhouse),  Ruben Sierra.  I mean I'm just throwin names out there, but this particular era of the Mariners organization reaks of juice.

I see the bodies of Cameron, Boone, Ruben Sierra, Edgar Martinez, and then compare them to Mark Whiten, Todd Zeile, Bernard Gilkey, and Gerald Perry. And I realize that the two games I've watched today perfectly exemplify what has become known to be the steroid era.

I know it's not just limited to the Mariner's or any one team. I just hope we can put this behind us and really nip the problem in the bud. Make the playing field level, please.

Comment 26 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Where should I begin?

Your first lament (I suppose) is that steroids changed the game irreparably and you use as evidence the difference between the ‘93 Cards and the ’02 Mariners. The Cards (the good guys, presumably) had all their success au-naturale and the M’s consisted of one cheater after another. Luke vs. Darth Vader, so to speak. Mark Whiten was built like a brick shithouse. He was built like an NFL tight end. Was he a juicer? I’ve seen nothing to indicate that he was, but he had a Greek-god type body that was dissimilar from 99.9% of every other baseball player on the planet.

The ‘93 Cardinals finished 3rd to last in the NL in homers. That’s why people like Gerald Perry (Perry hit 4 homers in 1993 — big power hitter) and Todd Zeile were considered their power hitters — b/c they didn’t have any power hitters. The #1 HR hitter on the Cards that year was Whiten so, if you’re looking to point fingers at steroid cheats…23 major league teams hit more homers that season than the Cards did so it’s difficult for me to fathom your using that team as an apt comparison to the steroid era. BTW, guess who led the majors in homers that year — Barry Bonds w/ 46. He tied Juan Gonzalez, another one who is often unfairly accused of having cheated.

Aside from statements such as yours — referring to Bret Boone’s “puffy balloon like body” — I’ve never read anything that directly linked him to steroids. His name often comes up among internet scribes who are looking for others who “must’ve done steroids” even though there is no actual proof. There aren’t even any real anecdotes, postive tests, or anything other than speculation — that I’m aware of — linking Boone to steroids yet his opposite field homer here and his obvious strength is good enough proof for you.

Besides Boone, you chose here to indict Mike Cameron — since he hit 4 homers in a game — Jay Buhner, Edgar Martinez, and David Bell as steroid cheats as well. Is there any evidence, anecdotal or through positive tests, that links any of these guys to steroids? Yet, to you, they’re guilty b/c they played on the same team w/ A-Rod (though, as you point out, A-Rod wasn’t actually on the team during the year you first referenced and has never been accused of using steroids during his tenure w/ the M’s — nevertheless, to you, he’s guilty then as are many of his teammates.) Cameron, btw, is 6’1" and 170 lbs. Whiten was 6’3" and 215. Which one of them MUST HAVE USED STEROIDS? Bell’s guilty b/c he shared a locker room at one point w/ Mark McGwire. To you, this “reaks (sic) of juice” yet there is not one member of that team — NOT ONE — about whom there is one shred of evidence that they used steroids. NONE! But, in your mind, they’re all guilty.

There are a lot of things about the steroid era and post-steroid era (if that’s what this is) to which I object but most of it has to do w/ the self-righteous sanctimony that many baseball “fans” have when referring to baseball during this time. Not only is there no statistical evidence that steroids help a baseball player and, more importantly, that they have only helped hitters but there is no evidence that anyone on your little blacklist was a user of any kind of “performance enhancing drug.” To you, however, they’re all guilty — mostly b/c they played on the same team as A-Rod or were very strong for a fairly small guy. Boone, btw — 5’10", 180 lbs. That’s huge! It’s McGwire-esque!

I think the easiest way to put all this behind us is for people to stop their witchhunts and stop pointing fingers at those who may have done steroids b/c they hit a lot of homers once or appeared to be really strong. And, as for “level playing field” — if everyone was using, wasn’t the playing field level?

by chuckb on Feb 15, 2009 4:19 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

I never said...

I had anything at all to back up the claims.

I admitted I was just kind of rambling off thoughts. Excuse me for calling Gerald Perry a power hittter, I admit I failed to extensively research every players numbers whom I referenced in the article.

The whole point of my post was to express something I noticed while watching baseball yesterday. I just have a very strong premonition that was a juiced clubhouse.

I take all height and weight measurements with a grain of salt in any sport. That isn’t even really why I gathered that a lot of these guys were users, it was just their overall appearance and sudden power burst that seemed to come and tail off quickly. Bret Boone is an example, I’m not going to look up the numbers right now but I know he had quite a increase in power numbers that didn’t last long.

I was fully aware the early 90’s cardinals were very short on power. That wasn’t my point, it was just looking at how they were built physically and how balls jumped off their bat compared to the ’02 mariners. I also believe that the seams were strung tighter on balls in recent years? That could have something to do with it.

The Boone link to steroids I have is from the first Canseco book. Where after Canseco asks him where his power and new physique came from he put his finger up to his lips and said “shhhh.”

I’ll reiterate again that this was not meant to be a scientific analysis but more of just a general observation. I understand a lot of people that read and post on this blog are people who like to have quantitative proof behind their findings, that is the reason that I love visiting this site daily. But, in this case numbers aren’t what convinced me.

I guess I’m self righteous and a witch hunter because I don’t have some sort of detailed matrix with complex formulas to support my opinion. If that is what is required to type up a fanpost I guess I refrain from doing it again.

by thewizard3 on Feb 16, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

also

the 93 team could have consisted of all al qaueda members and I would have said the same thing. It had nothing to do with the fact it was a cardinal team. Whiten’s muscle looks natural, Boone’s doesn’t. I personally do not believe anecdotal evidence is required to observe that.

by thewizard3 on Feb 16, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

You don't need

a detailed matrix w/ complex formulas to support your opinion but it would be nice if there was something approaching a fact in there. I object when anyone, w/o any sort of proof whatsoever, accuses a particular player of being a cheat and yet you painted an entire team w/ the brush of a cheater b/c at one point they shared a locker room w/ A-Rod (pre-steroid, as I mentioned), Cameron hit 4 homers in a game once, and Bret Boone didn’t look natural to you. That’s it. That’s all it took for you to accuse about 10 players of having been steroid cheats. In fact, you referred to it as an organizational problem. That’s poor, IMO. Feel free to create fanposts about anything Cardinal or baseball-related but you should also be prepared to have those fanposts criticized if you make indiscriminate judgments about players based on nothing more than who their teammates were and how strong they appeared to be.

by chuckb on Feb 16, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Well now I know

I will not post a simple observation that is an “indiscriminate judgement.”

But in all reality that’s what we are all doing here every day. Very few of us have a press pass, a journalism degree, or investigative abilities. Isn’t that kind of what the blogosphere is all about? Apparently not, I feel like Will Leitch and you are Buzz Bizinger Chuck. I think your hostility is a little uncalled for.

Although, for the record, this was not based on nothing more than who their teammates were and how strong they appeared to be.

I first was turned on to Bret Boone as a user when he was talked about by Canseco in Juiced. Then looking back on his break out season, it all made sense. Here is my attempt at using numbers. As far as I know Isolated Power is calculated form subtracting average from slg. percentage. I’m sure this is a terrible pre-historic statistic, but hey atleast I’m not indiscriminate.

Isolated Power Numbers for our friend Bret Boone:

1994: 171
1995: 162
1996: 121
1997: 109
1998: 192
1999: 164
2000: 170
2001: 247
2002: 184
2003: 241
2004: 172
2005: 154

Note that 2001 is the spring training year that Canseco’s Boone story comes from . It is also the year he looked to gain about 25 lbs of muscle.. I remember the home run derby that year and all the talk of his “gains.” He went from a very average middle infielder with average to below average power to a guy invited to the home run derby. I think he juiced.

I will also note a sudden drop off , and then end to his career. This is a very typical reaction to abusing steroids in short amount of time. A lot of permanent damage is done and it is very difficult to return to form w/o juice. Canseco talks about it too, cycling correctly and such. I’d also add that ‘04 seemed to be the start of the end of his career, which was also the year testing started. How come AROD can still play? 1: I don’t believe he only used 3 years… 2: He may have cycled his injections correctly where Boone’s figure looks to be one who overrused, like Giambi and Bonds. I don’t KNOW this, but I’m just speculating. Which apparenlty I shouldn’t do.

As I stated in my first post, the more I’ve read and gathered information about the steroid era you learn that it was talked about a good bit in clubhouses. That’s how it “spread” so to speak. That may seem rather obvious. But at one time I thought if you were a user, you hid it. As time has gone on, my incompetent mind has gathered that players were actually fairly open about juicing. But, everyone also knew it wasn’t legal and that you don’t go telling your Uncle about it. Sort of like your buddy that still smokes pot everday at 45, you both are fully aware about it but you don’t tell just anybody because of the taboo nature of the activity.

Like Harold Reynolds said today, when A-Rod is watching Palmeiro and Canseco hit the ball 550 ft. in batting practice circa 2001, you could see him saying “I want to do that, how do you do that guys?” Hmmm, appears Harold made an indiscriminate comment as well.

I don’t think I accused ten guys, or even said “all these guys used steroids”, but I just have a strong premonition this team had a steroid infested clubhouse. I’m picking players who make sense to be a steroid candidate and connecting them to a guy who I’m very confident took steroids.

I am now done talking about this and will not use a fanpost to express my personal observation. Indiscriminate folk like me should probably be cast to the comments section.

by thewizard3 on Feb 17, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

You think you're going a bit over the top with the poor ol' regular guy act?

You yourself explicitly said “it looks more and more obvious that a majority of the M’s players are so juicy they are about to pop.” Then you immediately followed that with “I have nothing to back this up.” Which was true – you had no evidence in your initial post except a bunch of home runs and some guilt by association. Is it really so unreasonable to ask for a little more before you accuse most of a team of being on steroids?

by BTown Birds fan on Feb 17, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

A level playing field:

Everyone use steroids.

hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit

by Alxfritz on Feb 15, 2009 4:35 PM EST reply actions  

Hard Hittin Mark Whiten wasn't as small as you remember

you’d think google would have a better pic, oh well. he also had one of the cooler nicknames in baseball

BEN MOTHERHUSHYOURMOUTH SHEETS

ManRam

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson AND THAT'S A WINNER!

by gdm426 on Feb 15, 2009 6:00 PM EST reply actions  

he isn't small

but his frame looks natural on him.

he doesn’t look like Popeye out there like the M’s players redwizard was talking about.

by dcfcblues on Feb 15, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, he wouldn't look like

he had arms like hams from the upper deck. proportional is the word.

"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Feb 17, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

hey b.o.b. more trivia about hhmw

Way off topic, but… I noticed yesterday that Whiten used bats marked with #18- would be Luis Alicea? I don’t remember ever hearing about that.

You are right about Pena’s homer- he had a couple of real nice swings that day.

thanks mlb- watching that game was like a lost episode of the honeymooners- viewed by very few and forgotten by most.

by baked mcbride on Feb 16, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

This will be more of a commentary on Mark Whiten.

I’ll save any discussion about steroids for another place, if I ever feel like doing so at all.

Anyway . . . I definitely saw that spectacular game he had in 1993 live on TV. I was a wee tike back then, and it was summer vacation for school . . . therefore, no set bedtime, especially if the Cards were on TV (back in those days, it wasn’t always a given . . . and yes, my parents were cool like that). My brother watched the game too.

Second game of a doubleheader. Game 2 didn’t end until after midnight. Many people forget that Whiten misplayed a fly ball in CF in the 9th inning of Game 1 of that DH that handed Cincinnati a win. Obviously he made up for it in Game 2.

Apart from the four taters . . . one of the biggest things I’ll remember from that game (and I’m reciting this solely on memory, so forgive me if I’m "misremembering") was the fact that Bernard Gilkey scored on a sac fly in the at-bat before Whiten’s 4th. The flyout (for the life of me I can’t remember who hit it) was the 2nd out of the top of the 9th inning, and Gilkey was NEARLY thrown out at home on the play. Had that happened, Whiten would’ve been left with a pretty nice 3-HR game, but no history.

Also, had Gilkey not tagged up at all . . . well, who knows how Whiten would’ve been pitched to with a man at 3rd and 2 out, but had everything that followed happened regardless . . . Whiten would’ve broken the record for RBI in a single game with 13. He ended up tied with a Cast Of Half Dozens Or So with 12 (I’m not certain if that record is still intact).

Mark Whiten was one of my favorite Cardinals of the downtrodden early ’90’s clubs. Couldn’t hit for average, but when he got a hold of one . . . oh my. Plus he was an above-average fielder (despite the Game 1 of the DH miscue referenced earlier) and had an absolute CANNON for an arm – I’d love to see an Outfield Arm Throw-Off between the early ’90’s Mark Whiten and the present Rick Ankiel, just to see who would win. It was that good.

Hard Hittin’ Mark Whiten will always have a place in my memory bank thanks to that wonderful evening in Cincinnati in ’93. Oh, and the call by Joe Buck (Yes, Joe Buck!) and Al Hrabosky was pretty good too. (YYEESS!!)

"Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile." -- Vince Lombardi

(No, I'm not a Packers fan)

by Donut King on Feb 16, 2009 10:55 PM EST reply actions  

not to spoil your memory, which is pretty close

actually, on a “swinging bunt” by Perry- Gilkey scored from Second Base! At the time (7th inning), the cards were up 8-2!

Perry reached 1B as the ball was a slowly hit grounder. Sabo fielded between the mound and SS, but bobbled the ball, and Gilkey scored. That left runners at first and second (Zeile), when HHMW came up. Joe B commented before and after HR #3 that Whiten would be mad that Gilkey had scored and taken a RBI away.

Fun to watch on TV, even knowing the result- you must have been going crazy during the original broadcast.

by baked mcbride on Feb 17, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Heh.

Perhaps I tried to make the moment more dramatic than it actually was. I knew Gilkey was involved but forgot the facts surrounding it.

Still. Awesome stuff.

"The world is getting to be such a dangerous place, a man is lucky to get out of it alive." -- W.C. Fields

by Donut King on Feb 17, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

12 RBI

The only two men to ever have 12 rbi in a game are Whiten and Sunny Jim Bottomley who did it for the Cards on 09-16-1924. No one has ever had more in one game. Whiten also shares the record of 13 rbi in a doubleheader with Nate Colbert who did it back in ’72.

by cardsfanincolo on Feb 17, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

For some reason . . .

I thought there were a few more who got up to 12 RBI in a game.

With all the inaccuracies of my comment . . . I probably SHOULD have done some homework. Egads!

"The world is getting to be such a dangerous place, a man is lucky to get out of it alive." -- W.C. Fields

by Donut King on Feb 17, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Riverfront vs New Comiskey

“Mark Whiten’s four homeruns were fastballs on the inside part of the plate that he put good wood on which modestly cleared the walls of Riverfront Stadium.”

I understand the point you are making but it wasn’t just steroids that affected homerun totals. Players were getting bigger but stadiums were playing smaller. I do not think it ia fair to compare a homerun hit at the new Comiskey with a homerun hit at the cavernous Riverfront Stadium. Imagine if Whiten had been hitting at Great American Ballpark. I don’t think those balls "modestly " clear the fence.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.

by garden nome on Feb 17, 2009 10:23 PM EST reply actions  

I concur with that.

And Whiten’s 4th homer of that game – the deepest of them all – would’ve gone somewhere around Albert Pujols range on that riverboat dock they have in center.

Not only is the Great American CrackerJack Box kinda small . . . but the ball carries well in certain areas, and I’m pretty sure CF is one of the areas it carries best in, owing to that “boat dock” and the large hitter’s backdrop/tinted window complex serving as a “shield to the wind”.

"The world is getting to be such a dangerous place, a man is lucky to get out of it alive." -- W.C. Fields

by Donut King on Feb 18, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

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