Carpenter Throws Well
From the Post-Dispatch, apparently Carpenter threw off the mound today for about 10 minutes with no discomfort. Article Here
To my mind, that is fantastic news. Apparently McClellan is pitching on the same days as Carpenter in order to be a seemless backup. Lets hope that Carp continues to progress normally. He really means the season for the Cards this year.
The article goes on to state that there is no reason why they will treat Carpenter any differently this Spring than any other pitcher. I still prefer McClellan to Pinata, so we will have to see how things shake out.
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Did he throw with no discomfort last summer
when he was rehabbing? I honestly don’t remember.
by Hardcore Legend on Feb 11, 2009 2:57 PM EST reply actions
Yup
Wasn’t his nerve issue not necessarily related to what he was rehabbing at the time?
What was he rehabbing for? SARS? Gout? Scurvy? Mange? Is there anything he hasn’t had?
hecanthithecanthithecanthithecanthit
by looking at his new facial hair
it wouldn’t surprise me if he has the Mange right now.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
and....BEN SHEETS!!! **
**not that BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment, just BEN SHEETS!!!
(BEN SHEETS might be involved in this comment)
He was a leper
He made a full recovery from that, though
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by jd is legend on Feb 11, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
He did throw with no discomfort last summer
Hardcore Legend,
He did apparently throw with no discomfort according to this article from the post dispatch
Nevertheless, I’ll take him pitching with no discomfort over “jeez I don’t think I can throw again” or something like that.
If you use the reply button...
…Your post nests under HL’s post nicely.
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 11, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
"I still prefer McClellan to Pinata"
The more I think about it, the more I disagree. For most of this offseason, I’ve been in the same boat. However, upon furthur consideration, I’ve come to the conclusion that Pineiro will best serve the team (assuming he has to be on the team…) from the starting rotation. I’m getting sick of looking up numbers, which is saying something, and I feel like I have a good feel for them by now so this is an opinion based on what I think I remember:
1) Pineiro will be better this year than last, if even it’s just slightly. He was unlucky last year and that’s bound to improve.
2) Pineiro would suck coming out of the ‘pen just like he’d suck in the rotation. I’d rather see him put up a 4.80 ERA in innings 1 through 7 1 through 5 than innings six and up. No me gustó TESS.
3) McClellan was the go-to guy in the bullpen last year. I see no reason why he can’t do that again.
4) McClellan burnt out at the end of last season. Who is to say that his arm will be able to hold up over 30 starts?
5) McClellan wouldn’t likely do better than a mid 4s ERA as a starter (and that’s assuming he doesn’t burn out). He could be better, and that would be great, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Basically, I feel like the value of KMac in the pen combined with Joe-L (does anyone else think it’s funny that his name is Joel, like the opposite of Joe-W, as in he loses a lot?) is better than Pineiro in the pen and KMac in the rotation. The latter obviously has more potential, but much less stability. Let’s just hope Carpenter really is himself, a healthy, dealing version of himself. Like the guy that shut down the Tigers…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
Nice
I like the Joe-L comment. Probably more than one L though
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
by wizardofozzie on Feb 11, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
I agree.
Especially with #2. It seems like a lot of times he gives up his runs in the first two innings and then settles down for 2 or three more… There was a point in last season where you could almost set your watch by it. I like the Joe-L comment as well. Nice.
According to his splits
PInero did well in the first inning but was destroyed in the second. His third inning splits are good, but by that time the damage was usually done.
His splits for the first time facing a batter in a game are not good (which is important for a bullpen guy), but that is a reflection of how horrible the second inning was.
From what the FO has been saying, Pinero is in the rotation and McClellan is only a stop-gap if Carpenter flames out. Of course, by what the FO has been saying (until very recently), Kennedy is our man at 2B.
Sign someone who can pitch, then let this team play.
by IL and StL Fan on Feb 11, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
i don't see it, honestly.
mcclellan suffered in the bullpen, in part because of overexposure, but also because he ended up making lots and lots of appearances with few rests in between. the rotation can actually be easier on an arm than the bullpen because of longer rest periods and fewer warmups.
the outcome was that mcclellan was very valuable over the beginning of the season and had negative value at the end. the rotation could be a better way to maintain his value if he’s able to pitch there.
as for pineiro, the best way to deal with a mediocre pitcher is just not to pitch him very often, in the rotation, in the bullpen, wherever. if he’s our worst option in the pen, he can be relegated to lost cause games and low-leverage long relief. there are high and low leverage relief appearances. in staffing those appearances, you can judiciously use a bullpen. a start is a start is a start, though.
the last factor in favor of mcclellan in the rotation is that we have enormous depth in middle relief and limited depth in starting pitching.
How was he overexposed
in 76 innings? I agree that he was used probably more frequently than he should have been, but if he was overexposed in 76 innings, he won’t be able to stick it out for 180-200. The fact that he was near worthless in his last 11 games (15 ER in 12 IP) is what really worries me.
Hypothetically, a switch to the rotation could benefit him because it would allow him more rest. However, there is still the problem that you are more than doubling his innings. That is unquestionably a risky move. No one knows whether or not his arm will give out by August if he is in the rotation.
Obviously LaRussa isn’t going to throw Pineiro into a 1 run game in the seventh unless he absolutely has to (I say that but sadly I don’t believe it…). You’re assuming that Pineiro isn’t going to pitch in any high leverage situations. After a couple of short starts in a row by Wellemeyer and KMac, the bullpen will be tired. That means that Pineiro will be just about the only option after Carp/Wainwight just finished his 7 inning gem. I don’t want to see that.
The fact that we are deep in RH relief is irrelevant. McClellan and Pineiro will both be on the roster, so moving McClellan to the rotation this year moves Pineiro to the ’pen. That significantly hurts the bullpen while providing a marginal at best improvement to the rotation (hypothetically, of course).
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Feb 11, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
How does this make sense
That significantly hurts the bullpen while providing a marginal at best improvement to the rotation (hypothetically, of course).
If McClellan was used in the pen, he would pitch 70 innings max. If he was in the rotation, he would pitch close to 150. If he is a better pitcher that Piniero, which of course he is, than wouldn’t the best way to maximize his contribution to the team be putting him in the rotation.
Also, if Pinhead was in the pen, he WOULD NOT be used in any high leverage situations. He would essentially take the role of Brad Thompson last year who only pitched in mopup and in the occasional start.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Feb 11, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not
If his arm falls off due to an extra inning load from starting than what good is that?
"Your Holiness, I'm Joseph Medwick. I, too, used to be a Cardinal."-Joe Medwick, to Pope Pius XII.
by redbirdnation8206 on Feb 11, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
hopefully THAT doesn't happen
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Feb 11, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
Vivaelpujols, did you read my entire comment?
If he’s in the rotation he will pitch more innings and if he is a better starter than Pineiro, this could be a smart move. However, we don’t know that he is a better starter than Pineiro. I’m sure he would be for the first half of the season, but what about after he wears down? He lasted 64 innings last year before tiring. How about we double that to say he will be fine for 128 innings? That’s just not good enough. It’s risky to assume that he will be able to handle the workload of being in the rotation and at the same time maintain a high level of performance.
Also, if Pinhead was in the pen, he WOULD NOT be used in any high leverage situations.
Right. I said “Obviously LaRussa isn’t going to throw Pineiro into a 1 run game in the seventh unless he absolutely has to.” We all know that several points in the season, Pineiro would end up pitching with a margin of 3 runs or less. Saying that Pinerio takes the role of Brad Thompson is impertinent. He is not replacing Brad Thompson, he is replacing Kyle McClellan. That hurts our bullpen. I don’t see how you can disagree here.
The value of having Kyle in the bullpen is that we can use him in high leverage situations. Even if he is able to handle the workload of a starter, the improvement between him and Pineiro is going to be small. Do you realistically think McClellan will do better than a mid 4s ERA as a starter? Consider, CHONE has him at 3.90 as a reliever. CHONE has Pineiro at 4.74. Keep in mind, Looper’s ERA jumped 1.38 points when he switched from starting to relieving. Wainwright’s jumped .58. If McClellan’s 3.90 projection jumps even .7, that makes him just marginally better than Pineiro. Therefore, the switch would hurt the ‘pen, and do almost nothing to improve the rotation, even if KMac didn’t burn out.
Now letting him start in 2010 is a more viable option IMO.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Feb 11, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
didn’t=doesn’t
shit
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Feb 11, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
But you're contradicting yourself.
you said above our depth in the bullpen is irrelevant. now you say:
The value of having Kyle in the bullpen is that we can use him in high leverage situations.
And you maintain that pineiro in the pen will be used in low-leverage situations. if we have a depth of guys who can be used in high-leverage positions in the pen, our depth there is very relevant.
moreover, nobody is going to have a bullpen with no long man — i don’t see our bullpen as worse off with pineiro in it versus boggs or thompson. so, i don’t see pineiro going to the pen as simply filling the same role as k-mac played.
No, I'm not, you're taking it out of context
Depth as you referred to it is irrelevent. Pineiro would be replacing McClellan. This would reduce the depth in the bullpen. We would have less guys who would be capable of pitching in higher leverage situations. Having Pineiro in the ‘pen instead of McClellan reduces the depth. Because we would no longer have as much depth, we’d end up seeing Pineiro in some close games (like I mentioned above).
We aren’t talking about Pineiro versus Boggs or Thompson so your point is inconsequential. Pineiro wouldn’t fill McClellan’s role, but he would take his spot. That’s my point. We already have Thompson for the mop-up role unless you think that 2 lefties will make the roster. Even if they do, Franklin and McClellan will be able to go long enough for us to “get by” without a swingman.
Do you really think that moving McClellan to the rotation and Pineiro to the bullpen will help the team? If so, please explain how because this seems like arguing for the sake of arguing.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Feb 11, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
i think this array of pitchers is better (presuming kmac is reasonable):
carp/waino/lohse/welly/kmac
perez/franklin/motte/kinney/pineiro/manning/miller
than this:
carp/waino/lohse/welly/pineiro
perez/franklin/kmac/kinney/thompson/manning/miller
that’s the issue — we have the depth as high leverage relievers to replace kmac. we have to have a long man somewhere. it might as well be pineiro.
But I still don't think
That KMac will do much to outperform Pineiro in the rotation this season. I doubt he’d last the whole season either. I’d prefer the “stabilty” of Pineiro for this season over the question mark of McClellan.
I don’t see two lefties on the roster, at least I don’t think two lefties should make it. Replace Manning with Motte and that’s what I see as the ideal bullpen situation (including McClellan). Or, if there needs to be two lefties, replace puppy kicker with Motte. I think Franklin and McClellan can give us the innings out of the ’pen.
All of this is going to be moot if Carp isn’t healthy…
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Feb 11, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
I agree about 2010
I personally would like to see him as the 5th starter this year because I think that it would help the team more than if he was in the pen, but I see your point.
Either way I think that K-Mac should prepare to be a starter, and if he is in the pen next year, he should at least get 5 or 10 starts so we know if he is up to being a starter.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Feb 11, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
thta sounds like a great way
to turn him into brad thompson.
"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo
We wouldn't want that
But I think that he should be a full time starter in 2010 unlike Thompson who has been a swingman the last 2 seasons.
Next year, I think that K-Mac should be used in a way that Joba was used this year. Start him off in the pen, if the righties in the pen all pitch well and if Piniero struggles again, then move him to the rotation. I think that all of those things are probable, so I think that is what will end up happening.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Feb 11, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
How
would it help the team more? A hunch?
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Feb 11, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
Keep in mind
That that 76 innings can be misleading for a reliever. He had 68 appearances. Thats a heck of a lot more throwing than you would think. Throwing in almost every other game never gave his arm time to recuperate. Throwing a pitch is the same the as lifting weights, it tears muscle tissue. Not allowing it enough time to heal will eventually wear it down. So I don’t think the jump in innings would be an issue because its a totally different type of work regimen.
I have always had this problem with bullpen/starter assumptions
I have never assumed that you can do an apples to apples comparison of starter and reliever innings. Starters pitch more innings total but also get more rest between appearances, and make fewer appearances. Furthermore, if you’re pitching in relief, wouldn’t you pitch a bit more high-intensity? Put more gas into your fastballs or something? They’re just not the same thing.
Smoltz always said
that the closer role was a lot harder on his arm than being a starter…….except the only times he’s been hurt in his career were as a starting pitcher. So take that for what it’s worth.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Of course they are different
He will be able to log innings more easliy as a starter because of the rest, but that doesn’t mean he can hold it up for a full season. Correct me if I’m wrong, but most starters throw side sessions between starts, so it’s not like he has 4 days of solid rest. Also, keep in mind that his 68 appearances wasn’t even in the top 50 in the majors. He wasn’t treated like Springer, but it’s not like he was the most “abused” reliever in the league last year. Throw in the fact that for all intents and purposes, McClellan was done after 57 appearances because he was dreadful in his last 11 games, and that’s where I see the problem with moving him to the rotation this year. I’m not arguing soley on the basis that “he only lasted 76 innings last year so how is he going to last 200?” Obviously, they are different situations, but that doesn’t mean that the workload of starting would be suitable for McClellan in 2009. Now, I think that if he can hold up this season under a similar workload as last year, we should consider moving him to the rotation in 2010, but that’s a topic for later.
The Godfather himself has decided to grace us with his presence. This is his damn house. He sleeps 20 feet away.
by thegodfather on Feb 12, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
More insight -- thanks!
I hope my comment above wasn’t taken as a “McClellan to the rotation NAO!!11” comment.
Digging through the archives
When we extended Piñiero, I made this comment:
AGE---BB/9---K/9----HR/9---FIP----G:F----P/IP
25----3.48---5.31---1.49---5.44---1.39---16.5
26----3.05---4.95---1.07---4.83---1.36---16.3
27----2.94---4.72---1.38---5.23---1.30---16.5
28----2.25---4.85---1.38---4.45---1.30---15.7
-----------------------------------------------
Ave---2.94---5.31---1.24---4.99---1.34---16.63
25----2.75---7.10---1.34---4.56---1.18---16.0
26----2.66---5.10---1.10---4.63---1.29---15.5
27----3.48---4.73---1.25---5.29---1.61---16.6
28----2.40---5.53---1.29---4.69---1.59---15.8
Ave---2.87---5.54---1.23---4.81---1.39---15.87
The first block of ugly is Suppan’s age 25-28 seasons, after which we signed him for three years; the second is Jo-el’s, although we picked him up at the end of his age 28 season and signed him for two more years. I was favorably comparing them at the time and still think that Piñiero is basically a less wild Jeff Suppan. Even last season, when Jo-el was a disappointment, he was better than Jeff in just about every pitching measure (including efficiency and IP/GS, believe it or not).
The big difference there is that Piñiero’s our #5; Soup’s their #2. I’m comfortable with Piñiero, and McClellan, and Boggs, for that matter as our fifth starter.
Supp's Walks
“still think that Piñiero is basically a less wild Jeff Suppan.”
Interesting analysis, but this comment doesn’t hold up given Supp’s lower BB/9.
Didn't format the table well
But Soup has a higher BB/9 than Piniero on average, and did last season, too.
piniero
is mostly a sinkerball pitcher. usually, the more innings they throw, the better they are because if a sinkerball pitcher’s arm gets too well rested, he will throw too hard, and the pitches won’t sink. When he was with Boston, he was terrible out of the ’pen, worse than he was as a starter last year.
by ultimatecardinalfan on Feb 13, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I'll believe this when I see it.
In June.
Patiently awaiting the day Colby Rasmus does this: .275/.381/.551/.932, 29HR, in St. Louis...
yes. obviously this is better than the alternative (carp crumpling up in pain),
but there is a long way to go before anybody here breathes easy.
He'll be fine....probably
The last few surgeries have been focused on nerve-related pain and nerve pain has a tendency to improve on its own, with time. As long as he can manage the pain or numbness, he’ll be effective. I take the fact that he hasn’t had any structural repairs (and especially to the shoulder) done since TJ surgery as a positive.
by your_all_morans on Feb 12, 2009 2:20 PM EST reply actions
Update from Goold -
Derrick Goold posted this today giving more information on Carp’s progress
Asked if he a catchphrase ready for all of the questions coming his way this spring, Carpenter shrugged. "I’m past that," Carpenter said this morning. "I’m done progressing nicely. I’m getting ready."
against my better judgement
I find myself quite excited by this.
"If I'm right, it was a brilliant move, if I'm wrong, it was a crazy idea". -Mo
There's some optimism, but...
You have to keep in mind what’s happened in the past with Carp. We were the same way last year when something was up, and sure enough he had to go back on the operating table. Here’s hoping to an injury-free year for Carp (but in the end, I’ll have jinxed him)!
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