A run scored vs. a run saved
There's been some discussion of late about the often repeated wisdom that "a run saved is equal to a run earned." For just about any reasonable decision-making process, I think that's a pretty safe rule to follow. Pedantic jerk that I am, however, I did a small amount of work to show how a simple and commonly used model (pythagorean win expectation) doesn't actually subscribe to the "run saved = run scored" statement. Before going any further, I want to point out that the results I show here rely on a trust in pythagorean expectation that is entirely unreasonable given the likely (in)accuracy of pythagorean expectation. But why would I let that stop me?
Pythagorean expectation is a simple way to predict a team's winning percentage as a function of runs scored and allowed. There are plenty of places to read about it, but wikipedia is probably good enough if you've never heard about it before. The resultant equation is very simple:
winning percentage = 1/(1+(RA/RS)^2)
where RA is the number of runs allowed and RS is the number of runs scored. The top left heatmap in the image shows the expected number of wins as a function of any reasonably achievable pair of runs scored and runs allowed. Hopefully the results of that plot aren't surprising: if you score the same number of runs as you allow, you have an expectation of winning 81 games (white); as you score more runs than you allow, you win more than 81 games (red) and vice versa if you are outscored (blue).
The rest of the plots show the results of a very simple experiment. Lets say that we are comparing the impact of upgrading the team by 10 runs. For simplicity's sake, let's pretend it's the AL and I'm deciding between upgrading a pitcher (and reducing my runs allowed by 10) or upgrading at DH (and increasing my runs scored by 10). The top right and lower left plots show the expected change in number of wins for these two options.
As you probably know, 10 runs generally means about 1 more win over the course of the season (white in both plots). For middle of the road teams that score and allow around 800 runs, the 10 runs = 1 win rule holds up pretty well. For teams that score a lot of runs already, adding an extra 10 runs on offense doesn't help as much (blue region of top right plot). Conversely, for teams that already allow fewer runs than is typical, saving 10 more runs is actually worth more than a win (red region of the bottom left plot).
The main point of this exercise is summarized in the bottom right plot. Here I've plotted the difference in wins added if you score 10 more runs rather than allowing 10 fewer. As you can see, for teams that score about the same as they allow, it doesn't really matter where you add the extra runs (white region on the diagonal). For good teams, however (ones that score more than they allow), a run saved is actually more valuable than a run scored (blue region). In contrast, for bad teams, a run saved is less valuable. To reiterate, pythagorean expectation probably isn't accurate enough for these results to be meaningful when making real roster decisions, but if you trust it completely, good teams should get more bang for their buck by adding pitchers and defensive wizards whereas bad teams should be targeting hitters (assuming all else is equal).
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I realized once again, that I am REALLY lost with math...
Being the one that said in the Penny post “Run saved is Run Earned” I should qualify..while I think intuitively it makes sense…meaning that if you start out 0-0 and save a run…that means it stays at 0-0 and you are no worse off…so it takes away the need to score a run. However, if you go for a team that is perfect defense.. never giving up a run…but is horrid on offense..
.(like my Batting Avg. in little league .000— OT: I played little league for as many years as possible before traveling teams and never hit, but I did score the winning run in our town championship by not moving out of the way when the pitcher threw a really high inside fastball to my helmet..bases were loaded sucker)….
…you would never score and thus you could only ever play one game a season. So, really a run saved does not equal a run scored because a run scored does not equal a run saved. Now once you scored one run, then afterwards a Run Scored = a Run Saved.
very nice
is this in any way related to my throwaway comment about this in a discussion with fourstick the other day (saying that, especially at the extremes of either continuum, a run saved does not necessarily exactly = one scored), or is that just a coincidence?
I’ll have a think about this post anyway. It’s definitely interesting.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
ya, that subthread was the impetus
though it’s something I’ve been meaning to do for a while
by brackenthebox on Dec 9, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
This is kind of opposite answer I was expecting
But since it is based upon Pythagorean expectation that doesn’t really surprise me. Regardless good work.
When I think of a run saved I generally think of defense more than pitching. I have been trying to figure out how much additional upgrades on defense affect the winning percentage. Lets say a team is already a plus defensive team like the Mariners. How much advantage do they gain by adding another plus defender? Does it matter what position it is? Infield or outfield? On the same note does a plus defensive team lose more when a weak link defender is added to the mix? Do they lose more or less than an average team?
I view defense more on a team wide and work backwards on players. I understand how zone ratings work but I also believe the players around you affect your defensive levels.
certainly, that is true in the infield
since so much of infield defense is coordinating movements and throws. I’m not sure if this is true in the outfield, other than perhaps having a good defender having to spell a poor defender.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Excellent work Bracken
Can you plug in PytagenPat and see what the plots look like?
W% = R^x/(R^x + RA^x)
x = (RPG)^.287
well, I ran it, but something seems off
10 runs seems to be worth well less than a win in most cases. I’m assuming RPG=R/162? Either way, the result is posted below. The difference plot looks pretty much the same, though a little shallower.

by brackenthebox on Dec 9, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
hmm, SB shrunk it
you can see the full resolution here:
http://web.mit.edu/bking/Public/pytagenPat.png
by brackenthebox on Dec 9, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
I have never believed the 10 runs is a Win thing
It reeks of BS to me. Should be league adjusted for one thing. But since everyone else does it I just go with the flow. I have believed in something in something closer to AvgLgRuns times 2.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 9, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
10 runs is usally close to win
In lower run environments, it’s fewer runs per win and in higher run environments it’s more runs per win, but it’s usually close to 10.
Here's the thing
You don’t need to believe it. It’s a scalar. Provided that you accept two things — 1) the run calculation aspect is correct and 2) the run to dollar conversion is accurate — then you can throw out the “win” portion of this equation and go straight from runs to dollars. You can even say that player X is Y amount better than player Z.
It makes for a nice sounding result, but the 10 run conversion is required to have statistical comparisons of players.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
is = isn't
in the last line. I knew negativity was important despite what my mom said.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
She always yells down the basement stairs to be more positive.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
cool mom
mine yells nothing but negative stuff
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
ah, that makes more sense
fixed it above and it looks more reasonable.
My ignorance of existing baseball analysis is starting to show.
by brackenthebox on Dec 10, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
I thought it meant role playing game
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Phinal Pythag Phantasy Phour was my favorite...
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Alright, I fixed this with the correct formula
if you’ve viewed the page before, you may need to reload to get the new image
by brackenthebox on Dec 10, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
relevance fail
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
craptastic
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 10, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
this is really good stuff, bracken.
You should fanshot a link to this on btb.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 9, 2009 4:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
How did they get the 10 run = a win?
Is it the avg. runs scored per win? that seems pretty high to be that.
my theory
last season, the average runs scored/runs allowed for the entire season was 747.3. the difference between the two being 1494.6 runs
1494.6/162=9.2
so last season, on average, the differential between the winning teams run scored and the losing teams runs allowed (same number when looking at a specific game, obv) was 9.2 runs
close enough to 10.
no idea if i’m anywhere close on this and this is the first time i’ve actually taken the time calculate the averages. if there were an easier way, i’d do more than the ’09 season to confirm
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I can calculate them historically for you
But I don’t understand what this means.
“last season, the average runs scored/runs allowed for the entire season was 747.3. the difference between the two being 1494.6 runs”
in '09
the team X, which is an average team, gave up 747.3 runs and also allowed 747.3 runs. so, if you think of runs allowed as negative runs, the difference between runs allowed and runs scored, for the average team is 1494.6 runs over the course of the season. divide that by 162 (number of games in a season, obv) and that tells you average difference of runs in an average game. which is 9.2
maybe i am retarded, i dunno. just kinda how i assumed they came up with 10 runs per win. not that it matters, for the reasons robot said above and because, you’re just trying to compare two players based on homogeneous offensive output.
and you don’t need to bother with figuring out average runs scored per season.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
well
i’m lost if the average difference of runs in an average game is 9.2, although likely i just don’t understand the lingo.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
He's just working it oddly.
Mathematically:
RS+RA
is identical to:
RS-(-RA)
But yes, in Pythagenpat the RPG figure applies to runs both on offense and on defense. As for where 10 runs per win comes from – from 1993 to 2009, the league averaged 9.60 RPG. You figure that RPG is roughly equal to RPW, and there you go.
why does RPG = RPW?
sorry i’m pretty dense, but like with prophetjohn above, i read “the average difference of runs in an average game is 9.2” to mean that the winner outscores the loser by an average of 9.2 runs per game.
then i read RPG = 9.6 and think of that as a combined score.
beyond that i can understand that if 10 is the average combined score, then an additional 10 runs is basically a guaranteed win, which is why that number is used in the pythagorean. on the surface, it would seem that perhaps adding a tad under ten runs on offense is a win, but ten is certainly a safe bet.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
muddled that a bit
dismiss the subject line, or tell me if my last paragraph answers it correctly, please.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
1999-2008
R vs W:
trendline W=.0873R+13.07
R-squared 0.35
RA vs W:
trendline -0.093RA+153.35
R-squared 0.45
Throwing some numbers at the equations would suggest that each 11.5 runs on offense adds a win and each 10.8 runs saved on defense saves a win.
Also did run differential vs wins and pyth vs wins and the two had nearly identical R-squareds. Might it just be simpler to do 81+ RunDiff/10?
For the 300 teams from 1999-2008, Pythag was closer 53% of the time. Not a huge difference….
Looks like the benefit comes in at the extremes; between 65 and 99 wins both are off wins by nearly the exact same amount 3.09 vs 3.07 favoring run differential. The average error was 3.61 vs 4.11 for the rest of the teams…
Nice work
Doesn’t matter too much to me if the pythag expectation is correct…your analysis is useful for illustrating that the values certainly can change under some mathematical relationships. This could be continued as a sensitivity analysis applied to the range if uncertainty in the Pythag model, or just to other models. Bottom line, it is nicely done.
PERFECT EXAMPLE
run saved vs run earned in regards to defense…JOE CREDE. yes bad back thats why we have freese and 3rd party to platoon. For run earned we have JERMAINE DYE. maybe just me getting over my man crush from when he was on the athletics, but man that guy is a f*ing athlete. bottom line run saved:Joe Crede run earned:Jermaine Dye
ask holliday about runs saved, or franklin for that matter. Why is everyone still comfortable with him closing games in the playoffs??
Jermaine Dye fan since KC. He's STILLLLLLLLLL GOT IT!!! now lets get him...and a real closer (named rafael soriano). Thats all, thats all I want.
statistical significance
This is just from my high school stats class, but all these stats are so overwhelming and the numbers are not that different. I doubt much of them qualify as statistically significant. I know this fanpost is much simpler, more of an in general rant to how this site has turned into a bunch of perif statheads.
Jermaine Dye fan since KC. He's STILLLLLLLLLL GOT IT!!! now lets get him...and a real closer (named rafael soriano). Thats all, thats all I want.
This site has always been comprised of a bunch of statheads.
But it’s always fun hearing how it’s too stats-oriented, not stat-oriented enough, too meme-oriented, not funny enough, too literary, not literary enough. And sometimes, those complaints happen all on the same day!
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Dec 17, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't know this person. just for the record.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 17, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions

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