Brad Penny Signs with Cardinals, Generates Headline Puns
by DanUpBaby on Dec 8, 2009 6:15 AM EST
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PrintThe Brad Penny deal is (as of this writing, one year, $7.5 million with various performance bonuses)... fine. Typical, I'd say, both for the market and for the Cardinals, who have once more opened up a Hot Stove season by making the exact move that the inventors of the DeWallet name expected. I can only imagine it was an ugly day for Post-Dispatch comment moderators.
Penny throws a sinker, which is usually code—it says "this guy doesn't strike out as many people as you think he does." But it surprises me every time that Penny's career strikeout rate is 6.3, and his walk rate 2.9. Those numbers just don't seem right for a guy who's 6'4" and, ha, ha, 200 pounds, who has 33 Google results for his name and the phrase Country Hardball. That's, I don't know, a good Sidney Ponson? A better Jason Marquis? I can't tie the guy who reared back in the first inning of that all-star game and threw fastballs past Ichiro to the guy whose strikeout rate last year was lower than Doug Davis's.
Penny has always been more exciting than his peripherals, and according to Fangraphs his stuff hasn't yet taken a hit; his fastball still averages 94 miles per hour, and he still throws it 71% of the time, more often than any starter older than 25. Then, of course, there is the lens through which we must view all Cardinals pitching transactions at this point: It's a Dave Duncan move, and that fastball is a sinker.
I like Penny, though; he's been about average four years out of the last five, and he does it not with junk but with top-prospect-emeritus stuff. Now, for a game of Pitcher A/Pitcher B: Pitcher A and Pitcher B were both born in 1978; both of them are right-handed; both of them have done this for the last five years:
| G | GS | W | L | ERA | IP | H | ER | HR | BB | SO | ERA+ | HR/9 | BB/9 | K/9 |
| 155 | 136 | 44 | 51 | 4.52 | 815.2 | 904 | 410 | 93 | 230 | 501 | 97 | 1.0 | 2.5 | 5.5 |
| 145 | 142 | 56 | 40 | 4.25 | 840.1 | 893 | 397 | 80 | 261 | 565 | 103 | 0.9 | 2.8 | 6.1 |
Pitcher A, of course, is Kyle Lohse; Pitcher B, the man of the hour. Not that I needed to make you feel worse about that contract. Penny has a fragile reputation, and every twinge and ache from a pitcher with great stuff seems a thousand times worse than anything that happens to a finesse guy, but he's made 29, 33, 33, 17, and 30 starts since joining the Dodgers. (The Duncan Magic will need to be worked on his innings pitched per start, which is under six and has been for his entire career. He doesn't strike anybody out, and he doesn't walk a lot of batters, but somehow, maybe while none of us is looking, he is throwing a ton of pitches.)
The exciting thing, for devoted Holliday-watchers, is that the Cardinals are paying a premium for Penny's 2010 so that they don't have to pay for his 2011. There's plenty of money for Matt Holliday this year; it's the six years after that that are looking stickier by the day. Penny's not an innings eater, but he's a start eater, and the rotation needed to be fixed no matter what happens with Matt Holliday.
Signing Brad Penny for one year is buying time—it gives Lance Lynn and the pitchers behind him one more year to enable the Cardinals to pinch pennies at the back of the rotation. It's the least intrusive way to acknowledge that the Cardinals don't have enough in-house options to fill the rotation this year.
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all I can say is
I’m glad it’s just for one year and not multiple years. I’d be more comfortable with Penny as a 4th or 5th starter, but it’s the idea that he could be the 3rd starter that is most unsettling.
I have a love/hate relationship with the Cardinals' middle relief corps. | Cards on Cards
the way I look at
is if Duncan can turn Pineiro from a pinata into a quality #3 starter, I am excited to see what he can try to do with Penny. This could turn out better than any of us think. Of course if it goes down in flames…well it is only a 1 year deal.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I'm of the same thinking
I actually think this will turn out to be a good deal. If he takes Duncan’s advice I can easily see a bigger year than what Pineiro had in 2009.
penny for his walk year
the way to go with him
he has a lot to gain with a strong year
an option year would have been a bit sweeter deal
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
i agree
an option for $9MM would have been nice
if he’s awesome and we can’t afford him, we can always trade him. this would be especially nice now that we know there is an agreement to not offer arb if he is type a
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I enjoyed this
part of Straussie’s article:
Timing for Penny proved very good. Pitching coach Dave Duncan reiterated his stance that Penny could prosper in St. Louis, where he would slot behind Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright and Kyle Lohse.
“When a guy pitches against us and I’m concerned and I don’t like it, I want him pitching for us,” manager Tony La Russa said. “We’ve been after him for years. I know he’s from Oklahoma. We’re excited we can get him. I know he’s going to fall right in line with the other guys we have in terms of work ethic and attention to detail. Dunc and I are very excited.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
that TLR quote reads like a standardized test question from middle school
where you have to identify the sentence that doesn’t belong in the paragraph. And the answer would be ( c ):
I know he’s from Oklahoma
or maybe (e), all of the above
by brackenthebox on Dec 8, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Very true.
TLR just spewed out cliches mixed with the one piece of information he knows about Penny’s biography.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It is.
I specifically remember seeing an article in SI years ago, they were doing sports by each of the 50 states, and the Cardinals were the most popular professional sports team in Oklahoma. I think the ratio was like 85% Cardinals fans over other teams, but I can’t remember if that number was just baseball or overall.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Dec 8, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Makes sense
I can’t think of what other team would fill in the vacuum there. Must be an old Cardinal Nation stronghold.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Dizzy Dean grew up in Oklahoma, didn't he?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
There is some question if he EVER grew up . . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
by akaitori on Dec 8, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I just can't see that many people caring about the Rangers.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
yeah, I never have believed that map.
There is no way in hell that most of Florida is Marlin country.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
That doesn't surprise me
Have you guys gotten over the Small Pox yet
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Are you like a prophet there?
Speaking of the great future that is baseball?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I hear you guys are about to get a radio tower to begin receiving morse code signals of baseball games.
- …. .- – .——. … / .- / .— .. . -. . ..
No way that much of Oklahoma is going to pull for a Texas team.
That map is bull.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
a better map was in the ASG-related exhibit under the Arch
they had a map of the 30s-40s farm system. it was a lot of territory.
that is why we call it Cardinals Nation.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I'm sure this has been discussed on VEB before, like 100% certain
But it’s still cool: The Common Census Sports Map Project (MLB Version). It’s all statistical and whatnot.
When you zoom over Oklahoma it is clear that the Cards are likely the most popular team there.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I'm in Tulsa
Tulsa and eastern Oklahoma are still a pretty strong Cardinal stronghold, all these years after A. Ray Smith moved the AAA team out.
The western half, I don’t know.
oklahoma, arkansas, kentucky
tennessee, indiana, etc…in the days before expansion and tv, when KMOX was listened to in all these states (i read it had the strongest signal in the country), generations of cardinal fans were born. there is plenty in print on this subject.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Even more than the Cowboys?
I admittedly don’t know anything about Oklahoma or their professional sports leanings, but I would assume that since Dallas is a stone’s throw away across the Red River, that there would be a ton of ’Boys fans there.
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
the map
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
someone hurried on these map colors, I think.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
let me dig out another map....
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Got it.
Oklahoma. fin.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
just for that I'm going to make your photoshop something.
it’s going to be epic. your brain may leak out of your ears.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
^you
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Do whatcha gotta do.
Photoshoppin’s my game.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
a'ight, ADMDrayson. now do you see Oklahoma?
note the footnote at the bottom of Green Book.
am not responsible for choice of logos.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I still say the Reds should use that logo more
Second best logo in all of baseball history.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
What in Christ's name happened to Arkansas???
What is that?! A tumor???
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
whoever drew that was baked
it was 1962.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Ohio and Illinois
are all like “Fuck you, Indiana!”
by Mister Eff on Dec 8, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
every great lake state says that though
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Yeah, well this state does kinda suck.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
the reds mascot speaks for itself.
but what about the cruise missiles circling philadelphia? or the lipstick on the “brave”? and why is his head so big? it’s like he’s going to eat the pirate.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I'm more heartened that Penny is an Oklahoma guy
he’ll fit right in.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
didnt realize that due to some theory of clubhouse chemistry
that being from oklahoma will allow you to get along w/ guys from new hampshire
or is this more oh he must have been a cards fan growing up crap?
Colby is not from New Hampshire.
I’ve never heard Penny talk but maybe he speaks Colby’s language and they can be friends.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
BOOM
hauer
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Dang ole Southern is what he is.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Dec 8, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Colby, Penny, and Frankie will all unintentionally speak in a secret language
that maybe only LaRue can understand.
And Boog can translate telepathically with the face-touch handshake.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
could Yadda & Albert pick up on those telepathic signals?
considering that’s how they communicate anyway, i would think they would
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
this is fucking complicated
you better keep track of this
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
It's all being documented in my head, don't worry
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
this team is sounding like a redneck sci-fi movie more and more every day
oops…MOAR and MOAR
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
well if we recall
Holliday not only nutmegged people… he could induce errors with his mind.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 10, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
and all of that came back to haunt him
the GOB do remember, eventually…
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Carp played hockey
he’s tougher than all of them combined.
(Though, really, y’all should have seen Jason LaRue positively tongue-tied with his mancrush on his BFF. The Cat said, outright, “the guys tease you a lot” and LaRue gabbled for a full minute about how he admires Carp so much and is just trying to pick up some pointers.)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Carp doesn't do grit
grit doesn’t dare sully his uniform
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
seriously, though
there are enough Cardinals who’re into the lifestyle that there was an all-out hunting expedition during the off-day in Colorado. if there’s any value to comfort level within a team, that is no small thing.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
They should all grow their mustaches out again
And go bow-hunting with Ted Nugent.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I want a poster of that
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 8, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
I thought they all went bow-hunting with Frankie.
even Columbia, MO-born, So Cal-raised Tyler Johnson.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
Tyler Johnson was there a while
he got acclimated.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
You can put an apostrophe there,
but it still reads as “whore.”
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Dec 8, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
only if you pronounce it like a yankee
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
too bad Lego doesn't hunt
other wise he’d already resigned.
i wonder if they’ll bring Russ back? he’s still got a lot left in the old tank
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I thought holliday was a big hunter
what with those camo undershirts from his days in colorado. Also, I thought he was involved in the expedition on the off day in Colorado.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I thought he was sick when he was in Colorado
the bug that went around got him around then
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
yes he was sick then
man that’s weird i remember that
i also had no idea Lego liked to hunt. i wonder why no player has tried to capitalize on that?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
capitalize on hunting?
you mean like those barry bonds commercials?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
i mean all of them take him hunting
and not let him come back till he agrees to sign for $12Mil per for 5 yrs & an club option for 6
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
frankie is from ok i think
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yes!! And he likes to go bow-hunting!
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
Penny, Holliday, DeRo, etc
I was first a bit surprised at the 7.5 mil, but then enough people said it was reasonable, so I’m convinced.
But, I’m now looking at what else they may do. If they sign Holliday, then it looks like that would about be it for spending this off-season. That is unless Holliday comes a bit cheaper than expected, which I doubt, but who knows what may happen.
So maybe a cheaper option in left is the way to go and maybe DeRo is that guy, although I’m fairly confident that he’ll be overpaid. I really don’t like the idea of giving him three years, and certainly not at the money he’ll most likely ask for.
I’m beginning to wonder if the Cards are going to end up looking at some of the cheaper (cheaper than Holiday) options available at 3rd in order to bolster the offense. I’m wondering if someone like Beltre or Tejada might end up with the Cards. Neither of those guys can hit like Holiday, but the way things are shaping up, I wonder if that’s how this will play out.
Holliday plus, say, Calero or Springer would be fine I think
I still think another reliable RH bullpen arm is kinda a must.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:53 AM EST up reply actions
I'm in favor of that to
but after Penny, and if they sign Holliday, could they financially squeeze in a reliable bp arm? I don’t know. Calero and Springer wouldn’t break the bank, but I still think it would be a tight fit.
They could potentially need to look for someone to come off the bench as well, depending on who else they sign.
I was glad to see that Mo doesn’t plan to wait forever on Holliday. I’m not sure what to make of it so far (I suppose there isn’t anything to make of it yet), but I’m beginning to wonder how much or a market there actually is for holliday at what we could assume would be his asking price in years/dollars.
by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 8, 2009 7:36 AM EST up reply actions
boras
will eat crow only as last resort
i expect this will drag out, unless bay defects
if so, then he will in fenway pretty quickly
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Haiku fail.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
Edited
Boras eating crow?
Rarely. Talks drag, ‘lest Bay leaves
Lego to Fenway.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 8, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'm assuming we had $30m or so to spend
perhaps a tad less. If Penny costs $9m, and we can get Holliday for ~$18m (I really wouldn’t want to spend any more on him) we’ve perhaps got 2-3m left to blow on a bullpen guy. I’d be keen to offer something around the league min to Gagne as well, but I think I’d target a “known quantity” first, and Calero and Springer are the only ones I can see taking <$3m.
This probably ties our hands from making any deals later in the year, but meh. I’d rather have our acquisitions earlier rather than later, and deadline deals (see: Holliday, DeRosa) are rarely good value anyhow.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
if garcia and penny do well
i’d expect to see penny moving mid-season for a bat
assuming no holliday
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
We'll have a bat in-system by that time
Read: Allen Craig
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 8, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
he's missed a year with his many injuries
he’s probably toast, but if there’s any chance his velocity might’ve returned he’s worth a ST invite and/or a minor league/minimum deal to take a look isn’t he? It’s all upside.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think he's worth a roster spot right now.
So it’d have to be minors or NRI for me.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Dec 8, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
If healthy, I think he's worth a minor league deal.
He’s injury prone, but his velocity was still good when he was last healthy, and he was more a victim of bad luck and mediocre control.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
yeah
i think people forget he’s only a couple of years past being a very effective closer. Chances are he hasn’t got past his injuries and he’ll still suck, but given the upside, I quite like the minimal risk.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
He was good in texas, unlucky in boston,
but things really fell apart in Milwaukee, where his HR/9 was insanely high and his K/BB and control were mediocre. His skills certainly declined there, but it’s possible that he was injured then, causing some of that ineffectiveness. Like I said, it would be nice to have the rights to him if he can prove he’s healthy.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
it's also possible
that he ran out of hgh
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
which does something.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
his velocity also nose-dived
and that started when he was in Texas. Went from a 95-96mph at his peak to 91 or something in Milwaukee. That, at the very least, is troubling. I was kinda hoping it was the injury(s) that’ve kept him out last year taking hold, but who knows. I’m only guessing he might be fixable – it’s also very possible he’s in the Clement/Mulder/Chad Cordero boat. Still, that’s why it’s called dumpster diving, i guess…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
Thing is, a velocity nose dive can mean different things.
Clement/Mulder/Cordero and the like have trouble breaking 80. A reliever throwing in the 90s can definitely succeed if he has control and brains- not so much if your FB is 78 MPH.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Mo is supposed to talk to DeRosa's agent today.
We might know where the Cards stand with him by tonight. The chatter is Mo is not going to wait for Boras. They have come to Indy to make some moves and are ready to improve the club if Mo was truthful to the STL-PD. Could be an interesting 48 hours.
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
all depends on holliday of course
specifically whether dero can wait (a little) until that is resolved, but if dero becomes an option i think the sticking point will be whether a third year is a club or vesting option. he won’t get 9 AAV for those two years, though.
in that event, it means holliday is gone and they likely look for a lefty platoon partner for craig, with dero enhancing the bench as super-utilityman IF-OF/insurance at third. that should leave money for a smoltz, or other..
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I was really high on the DeRo trade last year
but now my only response is “meh”. There are better options, and he nets us a pick when the Cubs ridiculously overpay him. I’d rather he went elsewhere, tbh.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
leaning that way too
holliday goes to boston
craig and a pitcher to nats for dunn
not so bad
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Ugh.
so bad.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
that's a TERRIBLE option.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I see what you did there
You actually made trading for Dunn a good idea
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Look, GuywhorunstheNationals, you need pitching, right?
RIGHT?! This is THREE YEARS of pitching!!!
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
if they'll take ivan rodriguez on a two year, the stupid has not yet been fully exorcised from that fo.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
perhaps i can interest them in this bridge?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Nationals Interested in Vicente Padilla
oh wait… that’s an actual Rumor.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Told me he was a Nigerian prince.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 8, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
I don't want any part of DeRo
Especially coming off a wrist surgery. Wrist surgeries on hitters scare me. As it stands now, we are in line to collect an extra draft pick, making the talent we spent to get a couple months of a mediocre DeRo less nausiating. I’m just not in favor of doubling down, given his age, the potential suitors, and his injury risk.
by Ray Lankford on Dec 8, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
My feelings regarding the wrist are similar to yours
I think it really affected him while he was here. The dude did not do much with the bat but swat a few home runs.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
I was as well
I figured adding a solid bat and multi-position faker was a really good plan for an offensively starved club. With that said, they Cardinals ended up with a guy with a bum wrist who was played at third a lot, even though that’s not what he is. Again, he’s a position-faker, not a position-player.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Hell, I would have still been alright with him
if it were not for that GOB awful OBP.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
If DeRosa
is seriously asking for a similar deal to Chone Figgins, that’s ridiculous. I’d much rather not have us pay $9 mil annually for DeRosa. That’s pretty absurdly high.
On with the (good) youth movement!
it's ridiculous and absurd
that’s why he’s not getting that, or 3 years
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I think
the cards are not done with pitching, even if they are still going after Holliday. I think they are going to make a play for Smoltz as well. I think Garcia will will be the presumtive #5, but I don’t think they are counting on 200 innings from him after coming back from TJ surgery. I’ll bet 42,000 internet dollars they are going to try and get smoltz as well to fill in innings as a starter to complement Garcia and pitch out of the bullpen the rest of the time. I think it will be very possible for the Cards this offseason to add Penny as #3 or #4, Smoltz on a one year deal as starter/reliever, and sign Holliday. And that would be a very successful offseason in my book.
I don't think they have the money
Smoltz is going to want a similar deal to Penny IMO, although it’s possible he signs for a bit less for a competitor (us?), I can’t see him taking less than $5m guaranteed + incentives. Realistically, we have to budget for the worst-case scenario (i.e. Penny and Smoltz both hit their incentives; if not, we can always spend the money nearer the deadline) – that is, we’ve spent $16m+ on Smoltz and Penny. That doesn’t leave enough for Holliday, unless DeWitt’s planning on raising payroll, which would surprise me.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Smoltz is no longer an option, I believe
Ben Sheets, on the other hand…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
What's up with Smoltz?
Sheets is Arlington-bound, barring something unforeseen. We also don’t have the money, I’d have thought. I’m sure he’ll cost more than Smoltz.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
Isn't Sheets more of a health question mark at this point?
I think you’re right, though, that he will probably end up with the Rangers.
Is this insane to anyone else? Jayson Stark tweets on the ESPN live twitter feed from the winter meetings:
Hearing Brewers’ offer on Randy Wolf was north of Tim Hudson deal (3 years, $28M). But Wolf’s agents still talking to half-dozen other clubs
Wolf and Parra will own us, I fear…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Wolf's good
but if I was interested in signing him, I’d baulk at 3 years. Has he ever pitched 3 consecutive years without missing a ton of time to injury?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
I was just getting ready to post that.
I can only hope they offer him that much. With his injury history, they’ll be lucky to recoup 20M of that investment. Melvin missed his window when their farm system was really good and now he’s frantically trying to hold onto the gains they made.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Recyclable headline:
Brewers sign veteran starter to too many years for too much money
Use this every offseason.
is there a recyclable headline for the Mets?
I can’t even describe it anymore.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think if I was a Met's fan I would have purposely injured my eyes and ears so as not to
have to ever learn of another injury…oh and I would not learn braile
but... but... they're inventing new and unprecedented levels of fail
Though the injuries are prodigious.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think I could see
Smoltz signing for 5 million. Unlike when the media tried to force the idea that Holliday liked it here, I think Smoltz actually did (pure speculation). I think he had fun here in this environment and at this point in his career its purely about winning, not money. Just my speculation, but I think we could get Smoltz rather cheaply.
I really hope so.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
there was a tinge of Smoltz's ridiculous ego in there
Well maybe not ego. Pride. He looks like he’s in classic midlife crisis mode, and he didn’t relax and start really going with the flow until just before the playoffs. (That’s around where the “i’m not here for the narrative. it’s not about the narrative. i should stop thinking about the narrative. but i’ll keep talking about how i’m not about the narrative.” babble stopped.)
I dunno, I have a gut feeling that mulling things over and watching his old tape will screw him up again. A quick word with Carp and Adam might straighten out his priorities.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
According to Heyman's Daily Scoop on CNN:
“John Smoltz is thought to like the idea of going back to the Cardinals. While he’d prefer to start, he’s open to relieving. The Nationals, with former Braves president Stan Kasten in charge, would love him to come there.”
So, I could see the Cards signing Smoltz as a possible starter and/or closer, depending on how Garcia and Franklin do.
did Heyman actually say anything in that quote?
I need more coffee.
DeRosa’s heart is also with the Cards, but as I said elsewhere (…somewhere), there are other considerations besides the Man Stew.
Philosophical aside — we’ve seen a lot of players who have been used to playing at a high, high level dealing with their decline in different ways. I think it’s hard to criticize or analyze how a guy will handle it unless you’ve been living in championship form for all your life.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Possibility of relieving
perhaps it is just me, but I had the impression that Smoltz definitely wanted to go somewhere he could start – so, the idea he is open to relieving is different, and certainly fits the Cards better – but, who knows if Heyman really knows anything
He Knows What You Did Last Summer.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
nice
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I am pretty sure we have the money
and DeWitt has hinted that he is willing to spend it, even if he/Mo do seem to backtrack on that sometime.
I don’t think it would cripple this teams budget to hit a 105/110M payroll, especially since it wouldn’t hurt for Albert to see what he wants to see.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
beltre is due to be overpaid
and he’s a type a
tejada will probably not repeat his ’09 performance
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
oh, okay
he’s still not worth $10MM to me
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Agreed.
I understand that Beltre is a very good defender at 3B. However, this team needs more hits and walks in the lineup. While Beltre’s numbers (especially slg%) are likely to improve with a move out of Safeco, I don’t think they’ll improve enough to help this team. I actually hope that Holliday does NOT resign because I think the team will be better offensively if that money is spread around and the lineup becomes “longer”.
"I learned a long time ago if you keep checking your stats all year, you're going to end up in the toilet." - Chris Carpenter, 2009.
there aren't many good hitters in the FA market, though
Beltre isn’t a marquee hitter but he’s actually about as good as anyone at 3B who is available (he’s better than Crede, probably at least as good if not better than DeRosa, Glaus remains a big question mark). Actually, other than Holliday and Bay, there aren’t many + hitters in the OF either. It’s a bit of an offensively-challenged FA class, really.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think you have an unrealistic view of what $xm buys on the FA market
You might not like Beltre, or Penny, and think there’s better options, and that’s fine. But I struggle to see how he’s not worth $10m, or how Penny’s not worth $7.5m. They’ve both exceeded those values every year of their career when they’ve been healthy, and project to exceed them again in 2010. Even taking apparent devaluation and contraction of free agent spending into account, you have to drop the vale of 1 win quite a lot for those two to not be worth those figures.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
well, i mean
even if he’s worth 0 runs, he’ll be technically worth $10MM because of his defense. and if he repets and has a 4 WAR season (completely possible) he’ll be worth well more. i just think there are lower risk options with similar reward potential that can be had for cheaper and fewer years
david dejesus
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
true nuff
and you know I’m big on DDJ too; but we’ve got 20 mill to spend – might as well blow it on somebody! It’s kinda hard to spend that cash if we don’t sign Cameron, Beltre or Lego, or anyone decent for the pen (all moves I believe I’m right in saying you oppose?).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
i'm warming on cameron
but i have a hard time getting around the value lost by sending either him or colby to left
lego, i would like to retain even though it defies all my logic. in reality, it is probably a bad move any way mo would be able to swing it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I am glad it is Penny not Padilla,
and I was willing to take Smoltz at 5-6 million. Penny at 7.5 seams right to me.
I think Mo should make and legit offer for Holliday with a time limit. Once the limit is reached or the deal is rejected then withdraw the offer and move on.
What do you guys think is a legit offer? I am thinking 6y100m or maybe 110m.
something like that
i’d think they’d start at 100 if they were willing to go to 110, so i don’t really think it will be a take-it-or-leave-it offer in that sense, but will be in a time-limit sense.
those numbers still make me queasy though.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
that would sound good for the sox
but not for the cards
4 and 68 is where they should start
that’s a raise compared to last year (16m for year 1) for him and +1/m each succeeding year
add an option/buyout for 1 or 2 more years
more than that, i’d rather go in another direction
he’s good, but not apu good
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
that won't get it done
so we might as well forget Holliday and not bother.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
6/110 is the absolute max I'd even consider
and that would have to be with the understanding that there will DEFINITELY be payroll space to go to $25m+ for Pujols for the foreseeable future.
6/110, according to my rough, back-of-a-beermat calculations based on Holliday’s age and similars, gives us little to no surplus value over 6 years, providing the price of a win stays about the same and we’re getting a 10% discount for the lengthy term of the contract. I.e: it’s a fair price (not a discount) for Matt Holliday. I’d be excited to get him, but overall it’s probably a neutral(ish) move, value-wise. There are better options, but somehow having another big bopper hitting after Pujols is very attractive, and so I could live with 6/110. I’d start with 5/90 and work up from there, I think, in $ and years.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
Mo on the effect of homemade pies
According to Mothershipman Leach:
Asked about the “Cardinal mystique” and whether it did or did not take with Holliday, Mozeliak was blunt about Holliday/Boras’ perspective: “This, right now, is a market-driven deal.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
whose head are you gonna stick in it?
/tasteless
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Deputy Douche's?
But seriously, I can’t tell whose head im going stick in it. That will make you an accessory. Plus, it would be on the internet. And I don’t know many people who posted what they were going to do on the internet; then do it; get away with it.
But the oven will have a good loving home.
by Evilfrog on Dec 8, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think an OBP guy in front of Pujols
would be more desirable than bopper behind him.
No, I didn’t haiku.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
High OBP anywhere in the lineup would help us.
Last year, we took many a terrible PA.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'd just like to see walks
from someone other than Albert….
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
Chone Figgins
would have been perfect. Figgins at $9 million is better money spent than Penny at $7.5 million plus incentives. I know Figgins got 4 years, but the price was great for the need he meets.
yup.
DeJesus would be great too – .380 OBP against RHP.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Get him here and screw Holliday.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Monk would have to get here too, for that.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
AAAUUUUGH! My mind's eye!!!!!
Damn it Yadi, I dont need that thought!!!
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
punctuation saves lives.
(of course that’s right after I abused that comma.)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I refuse to pronounce "Chone" as "Shawn"
He is Chone. With a hard-pronounced “Ch-”
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
I second this.
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
thirded.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
....
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
huh?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Wait....you mean to tell
me his parents wanted that pronounced Shawn?
I have personally always been on this band wagon.
* is an Asshat
Every time I see him
I say “CHONE!” in a happy to see you kind of way. Pronounced as it is spelled obviously. This is usually followed by a fit of giggles.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
He was a Name of the Year finalist in 2002, I believe
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
Carl Crawford
How much is his pending free agency impacting the market for Matt? The Yanks might be on the sideline because of 1) winning it all and 2) possibility of signing Crawford for LF next season. The Sox have two options with Bay out there and even they could be playing a waiting game for next offseason. I’d rather have Crawford manning LF in 2011-2015 than Holliday.
yah, I'd drool over getting Crawford.... I love speed.
I mean of course the fast, base stealing, and can catch fly balls like the Cullens type speed. Sorry about the reference, it was just the most apropos and I have a wife who forced me to go with her to see the movies.
I too would probably prefer crawford to holliday, if he's a fair bit cheaper
Holliday’s a better player right now, though. If they’re both about 6/110m or something I’d rather have Holliday.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
bay to sox
holliday to yanks
crawford to us next year
whoohoo
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Penny's Socks
The unasked question, as far as I know, is: Will Boog have a partner in the striped tall socks look (that should be far more popular than it is)?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Boog's are the skinnier ones.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh
Not your best work
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
they better all have those socks
under those pants, because that is the uniform.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Pitching to contact. . .
Anybody think that with the addition of Penny, who appears to be another pitch-to-contact guy (not to the extent of Pinata, of course), that the Cards will go defense with the 3B/LF spots? That would seem to suggest Beltre/Cameron?
I suspect that Holliday is still Plan A, but given what I expect Holliday to make, I might prefer Plan B if Plan B gives you Beltre and Cameron and (at least theoretically) plus-plus defenders everywhere but 2B.
The one fly that I see in that ointment is that the Cards probably want to hold those guys to 1 year deals. You can probably get Cameron for that, but I am less confident that you could sign Beltre for one year.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 9:59 AM EST reply actions
Rumors is
that Beltre is seeking a minimum of $10MM annually. I don’t know about length, but I’d wager at least three years.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I might would go for two
but three is just asking for trouble. Two with an option year? That would give us Freese and Craig off the bench, if we can get a suitable LF. Personally I am for trying to pry DeJesus from KC, Jay and cash considerations anyone?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Mike Cameron
1. concussion risk
2. the Yankees want him should Damon fall through (rumor-y)
we’ll see. it’s too early to tell.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
And with his freak-injury history,
I’m not sure I want him anywhere near Colby.
Now with extra feisty!
SELL IT, COLBY
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Ohhh that was a huge dive by Colby
It looks like he might be hurt.
(Colby gets up on one knee. He rubs the dirt on his hands together from the warning track)
Looks like he is ok. Just rubbed some dirt on it.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm using the wrong Colby meme
that kid has more memes than Boog and slightly fewer than Albert
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I wouldn't be aversed to Beltre/Cameron
I’d like another RP arm, though, and that doesn’t seem to leave room. Hows about Cameron + Soriano?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Sign me up
The 2010 Cardinals are going to be good. Mark it.
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 8, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
yep
guessing the Braves don’t want to pay him, given the $ they sunk into Saito/Wagner, and he probably won’t want to hang around to be a set-up guy. I think it could work.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
Soriano would have to approve of any trade made before mid-June.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
he probably won’t want to hang around to be a set-up guy.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
he's almost certainly
going to request a trade. and the braves don’t want $20MM in the back of the pen. a trade shouldn’t be too tough
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
this is true
there are already reports that he will ask to be traded over at mlbtraderumors. I’m too lazy to link.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Can I just say,
that I really love Soriano for just sticking it to them as hard as he effing possibly could?
“I’m F’ing Rafael Soriano! You don’t Juan Cruz MEEEEEEEE!!!!”
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
lol
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
I'd rather see Freese/Holliday
or Crede/Freese/Holliday than anything else.
Holliday is a solid defender in LF, and Crede and Freese are both good with the glove, although they may not hit enough.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Except for when he gets hit in the junk by the last out in game 2 of a postseason series
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
I heard his junk has been working with Kenny Lofton this offseason,
to get better jumps and reads.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Not signing a 6 WAR outfielder because of one postseason
is fucking ridiculous. If that’s how you evaluate players, then Barry Bonds wouldn’t have had a job after the ’91 and ’92 postseasons.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think that may have been a joke
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe
I just see a lot of excoriating around here about Holliday and Franklin based strictly on the playoffs, but I never see anyone dogging Chris Carpenter or Joel Piniero for their lackluster starts in the other two games of that series, or for the rest of the offense that disappeared around Pujols and Holliday, who had a good series with the bat.
They just seem to take the lion’s share of the blame, when it was a team effort that lost us the series.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
2009 postseason via b-r.com
ap – .300/.462/.300
mh – .167/.231/.417
that series was all about the colby and dero
colby – .444/.545/.778
dero – .385/.385/.462
i mean, albert’s .762 ops isn’t terrible, but it’s not albert
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Yah
that .462 OBP really sucks. You’re right — he needs to be on base at least half the time. Oh wait…shit.
Holliday had two dingers. Two dingers in three games. That’s pretty good in my book.
Ludwick didn’t hit. Skip and Ryan didn’t get on base in front of Albert to keep him from getting pitched around. Carp didn’t show up in game 1. Piniero didn’t show up in game 3.
Plenty of blame to pass around here.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
yeah, i mean you can cherry pick stats
but those ops are pretty bad
prefer woba via fangraphs?
me too
ap – .268
mh – .280
colby – .552
dero – .385
there may be some validity to people not getting on to get albert any pitches to hit, sure. just disputing the notion that pujols and holliday had good series with the bat. and numbers agree with me
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Whatever.
You win. You are never wrong, I forgot. Good job on the small sample sizes though. Awesome. Keep up the “highly suspect” statistical work that I don’t give a shit about.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
wat
obviously it’s a small sample size. do you think i am saying that albert’s true talent level is .268 woba?
you said they had great series. i said nuh uh. turns out the numbers support me, regardless of whose fault they are. they just weren’t that great. like most of the team except colby, dero and waino
did you stand up to type that because you are so butthurt lol?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Forget it
I’m going to move on with my day now. I’m done arguing with you — you take me completely out of context and then turn around and try and rub it in my face. Go back and read my original post in this thread. See if you can understand it.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
alright
have a good one
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
SSS is inherent
in a debate on a 3-game series, so don’t start a debate about it and then claim SSS.
/speaking on behalf of prophetjohn, or reply fail, whichever floats your boat
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Oh for Pete's Sake
I just see a lot of excoriating around here about Holliday and Franklin based strictly on the playoffs, but I never see anyone dogging Chris Carpenter or Joel Piniero for their lackluster starts in the other two games of that series, or for the rest of the offense that disappeared around Pujols and Holliday, who had a good series with the bat.
They just seem to take the lion’s share of the blame, when it was a team effort that lost us the series.
That’s my original comment. If you’re going to rip Franklin and Holliday, then you need to rip Carpenter, Pineiro, Skip, Boog, Ludwick, and the rest of the team that didn’t perform. THAT’S ALL I’M SAYING! I didn’t start this debate about 3 game sample sizes…..
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Indeed it was
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
I'm intrigued by Penny but.......
….one thing I haven’t read anywhere is how TERRIBLE he is at holding runners on base.
He was the SP last year when Carl Crawford stole 6 bases in one game. And he was the starter at a game I saw in person at Rangers Ballpark when the Rangers set a franchise record for steals in a game.
For the year, baserunners were 28 for 31 against Penny. That’s awful.
I know that he was throwing to the decaying corpse that is Jason Varitek for much of last year, but this will be a good test for Yadi. If he can shut down the running game during Penny’s starts, that will be quite a feat.
That's a very good point
I, like you, think Yadi might have a positive effect on that, though.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Tony La Russa requires all his pitchers to deliver within 1.4 seconds.
Red Sox Time will not work in St. Louis.
Cite: summary / full article
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
favorite line from that article
“Molina is a throwback, a catcher in the grittiest sense of the word”
Yadi is grit?
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
he invented it
he lets others slide in it, sometimes.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He's so gritty that his skin has changed color.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Sosa?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Bizarro
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
They better run on the first pitch
or Yadi will pick them off of first base. The fact that Yadi is so adept at picking guys off really cuts down the running game, because you can’t get a huge lead unless you plan on stealing on the first pitch.
I also think that DD will work out Penny’s holding of runners and that Yadi’s cannon will keep the running game at bay. Greg Maddux was also terrible at holding runners and he seemed to do pretty well.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
tony and dunc
knew that stat.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
rule v - interesting
I thought mlb didn’t allow trading picks, but apparently that rule doesn’t apply to rule 5 picks.
4:11pm: The Yanks will receive the Nationals’ Rule 5 pick for Bruney, reports Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News.
mlbtr link
What will they get in June or July when they flip Bruney?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
the amateur draft
is different than the rule 5
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Remember Josh Hamilton
Isn’t this exactly what happened with Josh Hamilton three years ago? Some team (I thought the Cubs, but is that possible?) had the right to the first over-all Rule 5 the year he was left exposed. Cincinnatti wanted Hamilton and traded up to get him.
I think it's not actually trading the pick itself
but the teams agree which player will be selected with that pick and then that selection is traded AFTER the draft. It’s sketchy but technically, I think that’s what is happening.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Yes
You can’t trade the actual pick, but you can agree to a deal in which the player picked is traded and let the other team dictate who is selected.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
That may be true, but if so it's still
more lenient than the Rookie Draft rules, since you can’t trade them until a year has passed since they were drafted.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Incentive Contract guess update
twitter update from Tim Brown: Penny contract: Reaches full value ($9 mil) at 204 IP. Cards agree if Penny is Type A free agent not to offer arbitration. Physical today
Dear Cardinals medical staff,
Don’t fuck it up.
Sincerely,
The Luggage
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
A beautiful sentiment.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
I don't like the no-arbitration
but what can you do.
he wasn't even a type B this year
If he’s type A come 2011, we’ll have more than gotten our money’s worth out of him
by brackenthebox on Dec 8, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I think you're right about that
I was initially worried at the arbitration thing. But if he ends up having that kind of success it will be worth it with an affordable 1 year deal.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I saw that, and I was like, "Why 204 and not 205? or just 200?"
But I’d be more cool if we could like pay $3 million to offer arbitration (assuming he would not accept), and still get the picks. It’d be worth more than the cash. Of course, the public and media backlash could be steep, especially if the picks didn’t pan out.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
Yeah, I'm curious about that number too
It probably involves math though…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Well, I'm a stats major
so I kinda see that as a positive…
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
so, what you're saying is
that you’re NUMBER CURIOUS
BECAUSE THERE’S A LOT OF NUMBERS. IT’S TRUE
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
for xmas i want that 6 medallion that dude was wearing
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Santa hates me, he really f'in hates me
6ly, you have no idea just how horribly tragic & horrific the months of nov-march are for me. it is a living hell each & every year
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Cardinals agreed not go curly fries with Brad Penny
no draft pick compensation for us
(I can’t form sentences, but that’s about what Olney just spouted)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
oh, i'm late
Buster said it weirdly. mlbtr:
Also, the Cardinals agreed not to offer arbitration if Penny is a Type A free agent
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Only if he's a type A
it’ll take a very good year to even get him into Type B, I’d have thought (after two poor years). I don’t think that’s even a factor tbh. It’s much more likely he’s a B than an A.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
ah, okay
damn that Buster and my lack of coffee
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He would have to pitch better than Carp and Waino last year
To be a Type A next year
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
bake those pies
this is the big one
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
over the line
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Everyone would either have to suck next year
or Penny will have to win the Cy Young in order to get him to type A. He’s quite a ways down the list right now. If he gets to type B we can at least pick up a compensation pick for him.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
when players start bargaining out of arb at the outset of their contracts, how long can it be until the player's union
gets it changed?
also, every reliever should contract for this.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
That they should.
Except for those with the Atlanta Braves, apparently.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
The thing that concerns me most
is that Penny has had shoulder troubles, and our medical staff cannot seem to make it better (ex. Mulder). If he goes down, it’s not going to be pretty.
On the flipside, I think he’ll be a pretty good pitcher for us. The guy can throw some serious gas, and I think he’ll be as good or better than the Pineiro of 09.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
his average fb speed was actually better than it's ever been in 2009.
he pitched 170-180 innings. yeah, durability is an issue, but this isn’t a mark mulder scale shoulder injury.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
His fastball average is actually 7 highest in baseball for starters
Surprised he doesn’t have a better K/9
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
a comment that can apparently not be made about his ex.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
he used to date Alyssa Milano
who has apparently experimented with bi relations in the past. It was a poorly executed joke, I think.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of poorly executed jokes (OT)
A friend of mine today posted a status that said something like “I’m learning that ‘antique’ on Craigslist is code for ‘piece of crap’.” I wanted to post a joke that had something to do with sex offenders or something, but couldn’t make it work.
I’m calling on VEB to help me be funny today!
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
This is a good point
I also think this is why he has trouble going deep into games. Every time I watch him pitch it seems like hitters are able to foul off his pitches more than they do against someone like Carpenter, who seems to have similar K/9 and BB/9 career wise. Is there any place that tracks that stuff?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
you guys say his fastball is straight
But I have looked at his pitch/fx and didn’t seem to straight to me
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
His fastball has a hign amount of vertical rise,
with a variable but relatively small amount of horizontal movement. Not unlike most other four seamers, although it has been called a sinker.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
he actually throws a seperate pitch that is a sinker
I am more worried about his Curveball. That is the pitch he got lit up off of
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Is this where Carp and Waino come in,
to help with his curve?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
honestly
Yes, I mean if Carp and Waino can’t teach you a curveball. No one can
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
/rimshot
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
If Pinata channelled Christie,
could we somehow get Penny to channel DK? Or is that too much to ask?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
He kinda looks like a DK mirror image
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
that might be inappropriate
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Better!
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
OK then
His fastball has a hign amount of vertical rise,
This would indicate, to me at least, that his pitches may be easier to foul off.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Why?
Do you have any evidence of that?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Just what I see and have experienced.
It’s a lot easier to foul off a fastball that planes or “rises” than a fastball that’s in the dirt or morning left to right. If his ball stays on the same line, making it seem to rise, it’s horizontal location isn’t changing, so your swing stays on the same trajectory and you foul the ball off instead of putting it in play.
I don’t have exact evidence of this, but that’s kinda what I was looking for.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
...
Foul balls per pitches increase almost perfectly linearly by fastball velocity, from 17% at 85-86 MPH to 23% at 95-96 MPH.
By vertical break (it’s technically called spin deflection), it increases almost linearly from 17% at 0-1 inches to 20% at 8-9 inches. However, it plateau’s at 20% from 9-15 inches. Penny’s fastball averages a little over 11 inches.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 8, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not as much difference as I thought there would be
Which is why observations should only be counted with a small grain of salt.
Good info, VEP.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Where Penny Leads
While the Penny signing doesn’t rule out the idea of moving on Matt Holliday, it is the first step towards the Cardinals moving on with Plan B, which Strauss and others have indicated is “pitching heavy.” Seems the next non-Holliday move would be to sign another free agent starter to a short-term deal (John Smoltz) and then use the Cardinals few remaining trade chips (Garcia and agreeing to take on payroll) to bring in Adam Dunn. Such a series of moves would give the Cardinals a deep starting staff if everyone stays healthy, allow for the development of the few ML ready position players (Craig and Freese), maximize the potential number of 2010 draft picks to restock the system, and most importantly, not saddle the Cardinals with a long term deal for a 35 year old utility player with a wrist injury.
The flaw in the Penny signing is the apparent agreement not to offer arbitration and if the Cards trade for Dunn, it will need the draft picks.
okay, what about 2011?
you just traded our only pitching prospect that has a chance at being better than #5within the next couple years for a DH
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Ideally
The Cardinals would not give up Garcia to get Dunn, but Garcia is also the Card’s most attractive trade chip, so it would not be unlikely.
In either case, the Cards do have other rotation filler options (Boggs, Hawksworth, Lynn) who can take spots in the rotation in the next year or two.
The problem with inking Holliday to a long term deal is the escalation of other contracts combined with resigning Albert after 2010. Therefore, this off-season is all about making a competitive 2010 team while also preserving payroll flexibility for 2011 and after. Signing Penny and Smoltz to 1 year deals accomplishes this. Trading for Dunn, while depriving the Cards of some minor league talent , also accomplishes this. Taking the draft picks from Holliday, DeRosa and Pineiro (and perhaps Dunn next season) accomplishes this.
I am not really interested in trades for anyone older and more expensive
if its an even swap like Rolen for Glaus..then ok..maybe, as long as they don’t get injured for a whole season but we need to rebuild the farm.
i want to resign him...but I don't want to lose good chips in our farm system for someone who
isn’t all that amazing. And, if bad defense…I can’t stand bad D.
Interesting
Resigning Holliday to a long term deal will tie up a good chunk of the Cards payroll in three players (Holliday, Pujols and Wainwright) and remove a good amount of payroll flexibility in 2011 and years after.
Trading for Dunn will lock up dollars for 2010, maintain payroll flexibility for 2011 and years after, offer the potential for draft picks if Dunn signs elsewhere, and loose the potential production of various cost-controlled players (be it Garcia or some players).
Seems to be resigning Holliday vs. trading for Dunn is a wash.
other than the winning games thing.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Seems to be resigning Holliday vs. trading for Dunn is a wash.
They’re completely different commodities. I won’t comment on the logic of trying to get Dunn (I agree that a possible type A or even B status would help mitigate the loss of whatever we traded to them, and, personally, I don’t think it would take as much as Garcia, although they seem to like Dunn, for some reason) but 1 year of a relatively poor player who won’t cost a ton of money but will require prospects to be traded, vs 6 years of a very good (currently) player who WILL cost a lot of money but won’t need to be traded for. They just seem like completely different propositions, and not really “a wash” at all.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, but you fail to take into account the
impact of signing that “very good (currently) player who WILL cost a lot of money.” It is called opportunity cost and signing Matt Holliday will have a significant impact on the Cardinals ability to make moves (both resigning and signing) over the entire length of his contract, including the ability to resign Albert. This must be factored in as well.
Yes. That makes it even more different than signing Dunn.
thus even less of “a wash”.
“A wash” = equal, equivalent. Dunn and Holliday are two very different propositions indeed, in terms of risks, costs, length of deal and likely production. They’re not equivalent in any way, shape or form.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Hardly
While the deals themselves are fundamentally different on a number of levels, you most certainly can go about equating the deals, as all potential deals boil down the impacts on wins and revenues. The deals would be equivalent on those terms.
Oh, that's good.
Dunn it is, then!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
1.2 WAR
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
sorry to be pedantic
but HFS ©
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You pull that like a gun.
Not that you’re wrong.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
he might be running out of bullets with this one.
+1 also
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
stick' em up,
JMedwick
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
What are you?
One of those spreadsheet guys who believes in defensive metrics? Furthermore, Adam Dunn walks too much to love the game the way a player should.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I heard Dunn gets paid in Euro's since he doesn't believe in the dollar
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Honestly,
I think you’d be hard-pressed to find very many who believe in the dollar and wouldn’t prefer a paycheck in euros…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i wanna be paid in korean won
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
So that everytime you get paid you've "won"?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
that joke is so fail
that it has rolled back over to being win
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I do what I can.
Which usually ain’t much.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
I would have figured he prefers the rial
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 8, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No no, he obviously prefers the loonie.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Dec 8, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In that case,
can I get my pay in Euros? That’s where most of my money is invested right now…
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
three years ago gizelle started getting paid only in euros
this has been another, useless fact
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Holliday is almost 5 times better of a player...
WAR last year 5.7 for Holliday and 1.2 for Dunn and probably only around double the salary. Dunn costs 12mil next season.
Sure
No doubt you can, but to do so requires a good farm system to turn out cheap young players. The Cards farm system is far away from that objective for the next year or two and 2010 and 2011 are the key years because:
1. This is when the contracts for Holliday and Pujols are being negotiated.
2. This is when the Cards are proving to Albert a commitment to winning.
but!
you’re paying him $10MM per win
that’s awful value!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
correction
1. Bill DeWitt is paying him $10m per win!
2. ????
3. Profit!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
1. In just a 2010 analysis, you are paying for Dunn plus Penny for the value provided by Holliday and Garcia (assuming that Garcia is on the team in 2010, which is not a certainty). So it is not just Dunn’s 2010 Card’s salary divided by his WAR.
2. You add other “valuable” pieces by adding Dunn, including the value from the Holliday draft picks and potential picks from Dunn.
Way to simplistic.
Um
Why not just start Allen Craig in LF and not trade for Dunn? Our own Robot’s MLE estimate has Craig at 1.3 WAR in 2010, Dunn was worth 1.2 WAR due to his complete suckitude on defense. Craig is cheap, wouldn’t cost us a prospect, and would leave us much more money to spend acquiring someone to play 3B AND helping shore up the fifth spot on the pitching staff.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
okay, let me make sure i understand
you want to trade away the closest sure thing prospects we have to get a guy that is due $12MM and is worth less than half that so that we can get the arb comp from holliday (which we are already getting) and so that we can get arb comp from dunn leaving
that’s basically throwing away about $8MM so that we can trade garcia and a couple others for draft picks that might not turn out to be as good as garcia.
right. i mean, i kind of understand your logic, but your unwillingness to budge on it absolutely being dunn makes it so completely ridiculous
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Two points.
1. The value of Dunn is in his offense. This is why you trade for him. Adding someone with marginal OFFENSIVE value, like Josh Willingham is pointless. If you want Josh Willingham you might as well stick it out with Craig and Skippy in the outfield. Adding a marginal bat is pointless.
2. You are shooting down my proposal with a simplistic “you are paying $10 million per win” analysis. You do not make the Dunn deal solely for draft pick compensation or payroll flexibility or an “impact” bat. You make the move for a combination of those reasons and boiling it down to any one undercuts the logic of the move.
a career .840 OPS is not marginal
Did I mention he is an emergency backup catcher?
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Freese already has that role
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
Emergency catching platoon of same-handed batters?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
'09 ops via fangraphs
dunn – .928
willingham – .863
the only marginal upgrade is from willingham to dunn
and yes, you sign dunn for his offensive value. then he gives it all back with his defense. now you’re stuck paying 12MM to trade garcia for a draft pick and for the payroll flexibility of not signing holliday. but hey, signing dunn isn’t what gives you the “no holliday” payroll flexibility. not signing holliday gives you that flexibility. so now you’re paying $12MM so you can flip garcia for a pick in the 2011 draft.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Have you ever heard the saying
A penny saved is a penny earned?
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Does that mean Mo saved Brad Penny's life...
and now he has made a vow to never leave his side.
Since you're the one who brought up opportunity cost,
I’ve got another cost for you- it’s called the consequences of actions. If you get Adam Dunn for his bat, he will also have to play defense. You’re basically giving the other team a “middle of the lineup bat” by giving them free runs on balls that Dunn will not convert into outs.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Up to a certian level.
But as with most things, there is a level of diminishing returns, where saving the additional run is not worth the added offensive value.
what.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
This is simply wrong
1 run saved is the same as 1 run scored.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i think he's maybe kind of right actually
i’ll have to have a good think about this, though. Obviously Dunn is a stupid idea but I think there are points on the offense/defence continuum (especially if you just consider the extremes) where a run scored/saved may differ in value.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Except, these are scored/saved by the same player.
In a specific context; say you’re down ten runs batting in the bottom of the 9th. Then, Adam Dunn is better than Adam Everett, wheras a team protecting a 1 run lead in the ninth is better off with the superior defender.
However, things like pythag and run differential work for a reason; scoring runs is good, saving runs is also good.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
pythagorean records
are computed assuming quadratic dependence on runs, and that’s about as simple of a model as you can get. It’s safe to say that winning isn’t a linear function of runs. As such, there are definitely going to be circumstances under which a run saved =/= a run earned. The question is whether you can reliably model any of those circumstances to a point where you can take advantage of it.
by brackenthebox on Dec 8, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Even if you did model it,
the inputs remain the same. Adam Dunn is what he is.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
I was responding to this
I think there are points on the offense/defence continuum (especially if you just consider the extremes) where a run scored/saved may differ in value.
FWIW, if one believed 100% in pythagorean records, runs saved are worth more than runs earned.
by brackenthebox on Dec 8, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Pythagenpat makes it unlinear
By creating a dynamic exponent based on the teams run environment. Using PythagenPat, for most teams, a run saved is as good as a run earned.
Anyway, does anybody actually know which one would be better for the Cardinals?
no but
we save lots of runs already. i’m ready to earn a few
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Except we don't-
our defense wasn’t average.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
i meant pitching
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Ah, but then we get into the question of how the WAR
statistic calculates defense and the impacts of playing in St. Louis and for the Cardinals pitching staff will impact the his value (and I am not even getting into the question of whether LaRussa would “mitigate” Dunn’s defense through improved positioning or defensive subbing).
Dude
Dunn’s defense has been viewed over a large sample. He is getting worst every single year. I believe on positioning can help but not enough to make a difference
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Except that the opposite could also be true-
What if Dunn gets traded from a team he apparently likes, hates STL, and does not respond to the coaching? What if Washington pitchers gave up so many homers that Dunn had to do less work in WAS and is actually worse than the metrics give him? What if he is one year older, fatter, and slower than before?
All of these hypotheticals are as likely as yours. Do you have any evidence for yours?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
I don't want to know what any of y'all feel in your gamers.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
even Theodore Rapstar?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
the weird thing is
your argument would be so decent if you were talking about, say, carl crawford. but you keep insisting on dunn. so bizarre
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i think the cardinals
could use more than one
and i would prefer one who doesn’t lose all the value he generates based on his inability to adequately field his position
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Well we agree on one thing
“the Cards could use more than one.”
His value in the field, as I noted above, is a variable calculation. No doubt Dunn is brutal, however playing in St. Louis, a team with a consistently high ground ball rate (and lower fly ball rate) is important as well.
it is a variable calculation
and it is producing results that are consistently decreasing at an increasing rate. he’s not going to just turn it around and be a -5 defender next season. or at the very least, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
No one says he must become a -5 fielder
all by himself. The question is whether a St. Louis pitching staff with a high gb% combined with platooning, defensive switching, and in-game positioning can minimize Dunn’s negatives. I believe the Cards are one of the few teams that are in a position to “make that happen.”
the baseball will always, always, ALWAYS find you.
I think we found that out / were reminded of that the hard way. Fairly recently.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
it didn't work with chris duncan
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
craig and rick-dick in left
free lunch and worth what it costs
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Minimizing negatives is one thing.
Making him anywhere near as valuable as his salary is another. Even under the rosiest conditions, Dunn will remain a serious liability with the glove. So, so glad that Cardinals have shown no interest in him.
Now with extra feisty!
Nationals are also a ground ball dominant team
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Ah
But it is about more than “ground ball dominance,” but a question of degree and there is most definitely a difference between the Nats and Cards in terms of degree.
the degree is little
Dunn has a bad arm with the worst range in baseball. He has Nyjer Morgan next to him in CF who has one of the best ranges in baseball to make up for him. And he is still horrible.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
You do not make the Dunn deal solely for draft pick compensation or payroll flexibility or an "impact" bat. You make the move for a combination of those reasons and boiling it down to any one undercuts the logic of the move.
Pretty sure “boiling it down” by pointing out that Dunn is not even worth his own salary let alone the players we would be giving up to get him isn’t a tactic meant to confuse you and stifle debate. If you have contrary evidence, please present it. Otherwise, can you avoid weird accusations like this?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Dec 8, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Nothing wierd about it
Prophetjohn has been working hard to analyze the proposal based on no more than comparing the 2010 value of Adam Dunn; an analysis that is fundamentally flawed. You either understand this concept or you do not. To evaluate such a deal requires more than typing 1.2 WAR.
Do you think Adam Dunn is good at defense?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
But the remainder of your argument is an unfounded hypothetical.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
How?
The data on the expected WAR value of draft picks is widely available, as are estimates of Matt Holliday’s production.
It is pretty simple to do the calculations, which show that the four draft picks, even in the worst average outcomes (i.e. 2 supplemental rounders and 2nd rounders with all players being high school pitchers) plus the 2010 WAR’s of Penny and Dunn balanced against Matt Holliday grade out to support the Dunn side of the deal on a dollar value per WAR calculation.
The only real variables are:
1. How much people project from Jaime Garcia over the next 6 years; and
2. What the Cardinals can do with the $70 million not spent on Holliday over the next 6 years?
like i said
signing one player at a bargain doesn’t justify wildly overpaying for another guy. bottom line, no matter how you want to spin it, if you are paying adam dunn $12MM to be your LFer for one year, you are losing economic value. you might still make an accounting profit based on $/war, but in the economic sense, you are losing. it’s really that simple
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
unless of course that the signing of the bargain
is contingent on signing of the overpaid…but there is also value of roster positions to consider so 2 players equaling 5 WAR is not more valuable than one player at 5 WAR
the second statement
is potentially true
can you give me an example of the first that fits the signing of dunn?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Except you neglected to analyze the real low-cost alternative.
If we keep our prospects, cash, draft picks, and start Jay/Craig in LF, we’re likely to get the same or a higher amount of value than we would from Dunn. The marginal gain from Craig/Jay’s 1 or 2 WAR to Dunn’s 1.2 WAR is between -0.8 and 0.2 WAR. Paying one Jamie Garcia (worth about $8M), and $12M, you’re giving up $20M of value to get a marginal gain that looks a lot like a Brad Thompson projection.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
right it requires asking
how much does this player cost?
how much is this player worth?
is the second number bigger than the first number?
no? okay, move on
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Look, you're obviously not thinking critically.
Just examine your premises, per se, and fatalistically define the parameters of your albedo. Once your definition conforms to the logical processes contained within a larger pedagogical framework, you’ll begin to see the assertion of the nature of the quantum generational mind-vacuum.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
vacuums suck.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I was told there would be no quantum generational mind-vacuums
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 8, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Well done.
You have won the thread.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
When did I wander into the quantum physics blog?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
well it's too late for you now.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
You definitely did not.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Thank you! Oh thank you!
I thought I was about to have a conniption fit.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Don't hate the player.
Hate the game.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
I hate neither
Plural is the name of the game with this debate. It is about more than Holliday vs. Dunn.
No. It doesn't.
For the salary he commands, he is not worth the money for a NL team. His play at 1B isn’t as bad as his play in LF.
The dude needs to DH. He’d do really well in that role.
Now with extra feisty!
His salary is what it is.
His value may fluctuate based on park or opponent, but not to the degree that it will render him worth the money for an NL team.
You cannot turn a horse into a zebra.
Now with extra feisty!
is a zebra worth more than a horse?
From that movie “Racing Stripes” it seemed the general consensus was a horse is worth more.
Well
It was a Donkey
Here is a picture of a Zonkey
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
The Zonkey kind of freaks me out
I’m not entirely sure why yet…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
It's proportions just seem... wrong
I guess there’s a reason for that. It looks like an anime character that is actually self-aware and is going to kill me with its mind.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
It depends a little bit on the team
Dunn maybe slightly more valuable (like 2-3 runs) on different teams depending on park.
Besides, how do you even know that Dunn will be more valuable here? What are you basing that off?
no!
signing dunn for twice what he is worth isn’t okay if you sign another player at a bargain!
remind me to never invest in your company
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
And what of WAR in 2010
How much will it cost the Cards to sign Matt Holliday? Comparing the WAR’s of Dunn vs. Smoltz cannot be done in isolation. If for the same price of Holliday and Garcia the Cards can add Dunn and Penny, there is a different calculus. Moreover, all of these deals have impacts beyond 2010.
umm, how about allen craig will put 1.5 or so WAR out on the field in 2010 for league min
and we don’t have to trade anybody. if we’re cheaping out on holliday, the answer is not dunn.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
that and
i would be surprised if garcia isn’t worth at least 1.2 war
for 3.4% of the price of dunn
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Think of the net gain over Wellemeyer there.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
ya while plenty of smart people can agree that there are multiple ways to improve our team
wasting talent obtaining Dunn who wouldnt be an upgrade over in house canidates and better values to be had in the FA market would really not be smart IMO
i like the idea of
Craig paired up with a lefty. Damon/Hinkse/Giles
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
What about...
Craig paired with Ryan Church, who was just DFA’d by Atlanta?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
worth at least kicking the tires
and seeing what atlanta wants for him
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
blaine boyer?
oh, wait….
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
the only way I like a signing if Dunn
is if we then flip him, Franklin, and a prospect to the Royals for Soria. And I don’t even think Moore makes that trade if we pay for both Dunn and Franklin’s contracts.
I really would love to see Dunn as a DH in K.C. though.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i would love to see dunn as a dh anywhere
it’s a shame that such an excellent hitter is wasting all his value by being such a terrible defender
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
it really makes no sense
Does he actually think he is a decent defender?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
No one wants to plumb the depths of Adam Dunn's mind.
You may not get out alive.
Now with extra feisty!
I've had a good life.
P.S. My sources still say we get some news on the APu extension front today.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I have to say,
that is the most frightening comment I have seen on here.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Remind me to not piss you people off.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
stay away from game threads next season then
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I was told he would be signed on or before my B-day!
Maybe gdm is right. I might need to quit listening to my sources when I am drinking.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Yep, and I am snowed in on my freakin' birthday
The GOBs really must hate me.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
come to ctown the next two months then
you’ll have more snow than you know what to do with
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
KIRKSVILLE IS THE SNOW CAPITAL OF THE WORLD!!!!!111!!!!
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Oh and Happy Birthday!
Too bad you’re not me or snow would be a present.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
happy happy matty
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Oh My
what kind of pie
is that?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I thought you made that
and took pictures of it for use on VEB. * * *
* * * I know people that actually take pictures of food they prepare
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I do take photos of food I make.
And I’ve shared them on VEB. But this was just a random Google image.
Now with extra feisty!
and here I thought you actually went and made me some b-day pie
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
if you get pie before i get brownies
i don’t know what i’ll do
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I do so much cooking and baking in November
and December that I usually don’t bake the rest of the year.
Now with extra feisty!
Looks like some bacon on the tip
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
you're killing me
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I would probably eat that pie if it had bacon on it
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
ditto
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I'll have the cake, then.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
i thought you'd like it bro
6ly, happy happy. here’s hoping you got a lot of great gifts.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I really need to start wearing that button
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
if i ever find it, i'll send one your way
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i'm not particularly worried
that brad penny will be a type A.
yeah...
garcia’s not going anywhere. a young lefty with disgusting stuff for an aging slugger won’t happen.
by RedbirdAvenger on Dec 8, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Whether it be Garcia or some combination of other players
The Cardinals options for bringing in a middle of the order bat this off season are limited to signing Bay or Holliday or making a trade. Signing Bay is not an option the Cards are considering. Signing Holliday could leave the team hamstrung financially in 2011 and years after. That leaves making a trade and Dunn seems to be the lowest of the fruit (and with the Cards weakened farm system, low fruit is all that can be explored).
there are other bad defensive outfielders that are more worth pursuing
hawpe, willingham, etc.
of course none are particularly available. the nats are deadset on keeping dunn. either way, with his defense, he is just not a very valuable player in the OF. it would be impossible to not overpay him
he had 668 PAs last year and was worth 1.2 WAR. 1.2! that’s a little more than half of league average. pass!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i mean holy shit
i’m gonna say it again!
1.2 WAR!
players of similar ’09 value: jack cust! jason kendall! pedro feliz!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
what is this WAR you speak of
I aint no chick, but I dig 40 long balls (and walks)
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
you got some long ass balls, larry
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Dec 8, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
If Willingham's available NOW
I am so pissed off that we didn’t grab him last year for Wallace. He’d be a solid #4 in our lineup and isn’t half as bad in the field as Dunn. Plus he’s got two arby years left.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
was he available last year?
[longs for the van method of acquiring players]
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
wallace probably would've grabbed him
at least the same package that we got holliday for
porbably would’ve ended up being a better return
i hear he’s available for the right price, but i don’t think we can pay that price anymore
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
or we could've just kept Wallace, I suppose :-)
maybe not quite yet in 2010, but he does profile as the sort of bat we’re trying to procure with all this hot stove nonsense. bah!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Chone does not like him at all
Sub .700 OPS for 2010
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Chone's just bitter he's got to live in f'ing Seattle.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
only during the good parts of the year....id live in Seattle if I could during the summer and then have my winter quarters in so cal...especially now you
can pick up some nice cheap homes down there from those million dollar listing agents..
the northern midwest.
mostly detroit, some in cleveland.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
haha i wanted him to tell me where in socal these cheap homes are
I live in OC and see nothing of the sort…..
relatively speaking...like as in compared to
3-4 years ago
yeah
i never wanted to move him
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Neither did I,
at least not for a few months of a player.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
And play him where???
I think people keep forgetting that Wallace’s best asset to the Cardinals was as a trade chip.
He had no place to play in St. Louis.
Now, did the Cards use him in the best possible way? That’s debatable.
But holding onto him was not an option.
Something the Cardinals organization didn't think he could do
Again… something that could be argued.
But operating under the assumption that the Cardinals did, he had no future in St. Louis.
ding ding ding
and even if he doesn’t pan out, the dude is going to hit. if he’s -20 at 3b (which is probably worst case scenario), then he’s a proven bat we can trade for more value.
i just think that if tubalubs troy glaus and pablo sandoval can stick at 3b, oquendo can make brett wallace passable
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
What if he doesn't hit?
then he’s a proven bat we can trade for more value.
What if he hits like Alex Gordon and fields terribly? Then he’s fucking Daric Barton, who Oakland couldn’t give away right now. Everyone assumes he’s the next fucking Mike Schmidt when you have no goddamn idea how good he’s going to be or whether he can field 3B as a reasonable level. We traded his potential for a very good player to make a run at the playoffs. You can argue that we could have gotten a better deal, but you can’t argue that we traded a superstar, because you have no way to project that.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
OAK could give Daric Barton to the Birds right now
and that would be fine with me.
A 23yo who put up a 386 OBP in 300+ AAA ABs and a 269/372/413 in 190 ML PAs.
Where do I sign up for that? I don’t even care if he doesn’t have a position. Surely he’s not a worse LF than Adam Dunn. I’d love to see him batting in front of the The Mang.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yup
those are exactly the numbers I want from a major league first baseman. A .413 slugging. No way does Daric Barton bring back a Matt Holliday type catch. The A’s can at least move Wallace to DH or 1B if he can’t field — the Cardinals didn’t have that option. They’d then have to trade him as a 1B, and he has significantly less value at that position.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Huh?
I never said he’d bring back a Matt Holliday catch.
But he’s also not worthless, as you insinuated.
As far as a .413 slugging, that’s better than Mark Grace put up at Age 23, and that worked out OK. The annals of baseball are filled with guys who developed power in their early to mid-20s.
It’s easy to forget that Barton is only 23, and therefore still a prospect.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
As is Wallace.
I would guess that both guys are projected to hit about the same at the MLB level this year, with Barton having a higher projected OBP and Wallace a higher projected SLG, but not by much.
My point is that if he can’t field 3B then he REALLY has to be awesome with the bat, or his value will be less than it was at the time of the trade. A 1B with a projected .780 OPS is not a 3B with a projected .780 OPS. One is about league average for position, one is above league average for position.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Oh, don't get me wrong
I think the Holliday deal was better than the Barton, _______________ for Mulder deal.
But I also think the Holliday deal was better than the DeRosa deal, and I don’t say that in hindsight. At least with the Holliday deal, you were pretty much guaranteed to receive the A compensation if Holliday walked. With DeRosa, you weren’t guaranteed that because of DeRosa’s close proximity to the cut-off.
And I’m generally in favor of trading prospects for established players before the prospects los their prospecty sheen. You have to be judicious, of course, lest you trade away an Albert Pujols or Yadier Molina, or, for that matter, a _______________.
That’s one of the reasons a Jaime Garcia for Adam Dunn deal wouldn’t hurt my feelings. IMHO it’s safer to be that a Daric Barton or a Brett Wallace will return ML value than it is to bet that a Jaime Garcia will.
As far as Adam Dunn’s value, my logic is simple. If the good (at the bat) version of Chris Duncan is a capable LF for the Cardinals, then an Adam Dunn (who has been remarkably consistent and valuable at the plate) is even more capable. Defensive metrics have their warts, and I think they tend to undervalue at the extreme low and overvalue at the extreme high.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Totally with you on DeRosa
although he did have a pretty damn good first half. If he hadn’t gotten hurt after we dealt for him, I have little doubt that he ends up Type A, because there are few good 3B out there. I just didn’t like giving up both Perez and Todd — Perez alone should have been enough.
I agree somewhat on defense metrics, but I disagree on where the warts are. I think they are pretty good at valuing the very good and very bad defenders, and are kinda crappy at delineating the guys who fall between -5 and +5 because there’s so many factors that they don’t account for.
For example, I’m pretty positive they have Adam Dunn right because he’s been that bad in two different home parks and at multiple positions. I would not trade more than a B prospect for him, and I think Garcia is still a high B/A type prospect as he’s the best pitcher who’s also close to the majors in our system. I would love his bat in our lineup, but I don’t think it has near the effect that Matt Holliday would have.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Oh, I have no doubt
that Adam Dunn is the worst LF in baseball, or at least one of that tier of the worst LFs along with Bay and some others. And maybe he’s even historically bad. It’s just hard for me to believe that he is so bad that he costs his team 4+ wins (or more, depending upon the metric) through defense. I think the biggest error that defnsive stats introduce is that they can quantify the number of runs saved or cost. I just don’t think it can be that precise.
I think the defensive stats do a decent job of differentiating players, with the caveat that you gave. I would even say that a +12 player with the glove may or may not by better than a +10 player with the glove that plays the same position. There is too much noise, and too much variability (thanks mostly to the sample size = 3 seasons rule) to make it that precise a measure.
FWIW, I think it is also possible that may be a bias inherent in the stringers that are marking the charts for UZR and similar measures. Think about it, if a ball drops in front of Adam Dunn, aren’t you more inclined, even aside from his reputation as communist pie-hater, to chart that one as one that an average fielder would have caught? And on the other side, if you’re an Ichiro! fan (and who isn’t), aren’t you more likely to say that a ball that he catches is one that an average outfielder wouldn’t have reached? And understand, I’m not even talking about the NBA’s well-reported problems with “intentional” bias with judgment stats like the block and the assist. See here: [url=http://deadspin.com/5336974/an-assist-for-nick-van-exel-how-an-nba-scorekeeper-cooked-the-books]
I guess I have trouble believing that more complex defensive stats that rely on human judgment are much more reliable than the old error or hit judgment that is also subject to human judgment.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
But Adam Dunn's suckiness is not a small sample size
It is much longer than 3 years. Every year he is getting worst also.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
I never said it was a small sample size
I question the ability of defensive metrics to adequately convert “historically bad LF” to “cost his team 4 wins”.
I think there are too many assumptions to get from point A to point B to make the numerical representation of the stat mean anyting more than an imperfect way to rank the fielders.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
i don't want to take this out on you
I want to hear a counter point besides “I dunno. I just don’t believe it”
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Did you read my post?
Not trying to be argumentative, but between the rampant ways to include human bias into the equation, and the context-independent nature of whether a misplay in the field actually costs a run or not, there are all kinds of reasons to cast a wary eye towards defensive stats.
Heck, it was just a couple of years ago that the defensive stat wizards “corrected” Manny Ramirez’s horrible LF numbers in Fenway and added a new adjustment to it, saying “Oops! Our bad.”
Fenway isn’t the only unusual park in the MLB, although it certainly is the most unusual.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
I am not saying defensive stats are bad
But stats in general become stronger over a larger sample size. Most defensive stats like UZR/150 are done with a small sample size. But when you compare something like Dunn’s playing career in the OF it is a large sample size and says he is a poor outfielder.
If you look at other defensive metrics over the same sample Dewan +- and THT’s RZR they also say he is one of the worst defensive OFer’s in baseball. All this strengthens the claim that he is a poor OFer
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Dunn has played defense in dozens of parks,
with good and bad center fielders, on two different teams. Hell, his defense was even horrible when he played for team USA in the WBC. He’s just atrocious at defense.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
i agree
i would apply 5 runs in either direction for a margin of error. dunn is still awful if you give him that half a win. or twice that
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
There is no reason to apply a margin of error to defensive stats over 5 years
Assuming there is no bias, the misclassifications of batted balls are mitigated.
i was thinking
more like a 2000 inning sample
either way i was just reiterating how bad dunn is
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I think that Hit F/X will help with this
once it is fully deployed, because it will make the “catchable” and “uncatchable” balls more precise.
As far as UZR goes though, I was under the impression that all the balls hit to a certain position were put in certain “buckets” that are related to a certain area, so I don’t think that the issue you described applies to it — any ball hit into those buckets will be graded the same way. The more balls caught by that player in the Out of Zone bucket, the better range that player will have in UZR.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Where, exactly, is this not civil?
Compared to some of your posts up above, this is pretty civil, so maybe you should be casting stones from your glass house.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I suspect he's referring to the f-bombs. . .
and the “you have no gd idea”.
FWIW.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 8, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
he's kind of a douche bag
you get used to it
it’s not like we haven’t had this exact conversation 132 times before
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You aren't the nicest person yourself
That isn’t helped by the fact that you are always right and never wrong. You judge other people’s decisions based on your own preclusions and little factual evidence and when you’re wrong I never hear you posting how wrong you were, you simply disappear. Go back to your Utopian ’verse please — I have no time for you anymore.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
okay, you're right
i think brett wallace is going to hit
i see how that makes the statement so much different
i guess it circumvents your obligatory “prove it!” post
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
It makes a huge difference
Albert Pujols “will hit” if healthy. You can’t say the same about Brett Wallace because you simply don’t know. That’s all I’m saying.
You can bitch about the fact that we might have gotten a better deal, but I think it’s pretty clear that a deal had to be made. The organization just did not consider him a prospect at 3B. The same can be said of Allen Craig for whatever reason.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
but it's implied!
obviously i don’t know the outcome of future events!
jesus!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
It is NOT implied
and never has been implied by you in any of the arguments that you make. When you say “but he’ll hit” that’s not implying that he might not.
Do you even know what “implied” means? Remind me never to attend a conference where you are giving a presentation, since half of what you mean will be “implied” and all of us attendees will be considered idiots if we can’t get the “implied” meaning that hasn’t been implied at all, in any argument you’ve made.
Sheesh.
Jesus can’t help you if you. I’m sure that he would also prefer that you stop changing your argument.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
okay, yes
i am claiming the ability to predict the future. busted. sorry
Jesus can’t help you if you
what does this even mean? are you resorting to guilting me with religion? doesn’t work buddy. you’re just embarrassing yourself now
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
you're the one embarrassing yourself.
that is all.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
and even if he doesn’t pan out, the dude is going to hit. if he’s -20 at 3b (which is probably worst case scenario), then he’s a proven bat we can trade for more value.
Besides the antithetical nature of the argument itself (i.e. “doesn’t pan out” = “going to hit”), there is nothing there that “implies” that you meant that he might hit or that he’s projected to be a very good hitter. You just said “the dude is going to hit”. That doesn’t imply anything — it’s stating a fact that “he will hit”.
Does this make sense to you? If Mo came out and said “Daryl Jones will hit well this year at the major league level” you’d be all over his ass about it. If he instead said “We feel that Daryl Jones is poised to have a very good year with the bat and may help us at the major league level by the end of the season”, that then implies that the organization is very high on him, but that doesn’t mean he’s necessarily going to pan out.
It’s a completely different thought process.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
yes, i understand what you are saying.
Besides the antithetical nature of the argument itself (i.e. "doesn’t pan out" = "going to hit"),
as far as “panning out,” i was referring to his defense. specificity would’ve helped there, i agree
now let, me try to explain in a non-sarcastic manner how “brett wallace will hit” is implied to be my opinion and not fact.
the highest level of baseball that brett wallace has played at is AAA. i am making a claim that brett wallace will be an above average hitter at the MLB level. brett wallace has yet to reach the MLB level and has barely seen MLB pitching (a couple ’08 ST ABs).
due to this, it is impossible to know if brett wallace is going to be a good hitter, a great hitter or be forced into retirement within two years. why is this? because these are future events. it is impossible to know the outcome of future events such as the performance of professional athletes. there are far too many variables to be able to do so
there are some events that i can predict the future outcome of. if tomorrow, you wake up and you forgot what five times four equals and you needed to know, i guarantee you that five times four will equal twenty. i know this because it is a falsifiable fact
now, we can see the difference between predicting future outcome of events with and without falsifiable fact. the product of five and four is falsifiable. future performance of professional athletes is not falsifiable
to give you another example. many of us would say, and few would disagree, that if albert pujols is healthy next season, he will hit (let’s ignore the fact that most people would also predict that he will hit at an mvp level). this is a safe bet as albert pujols probably will hit at an exceptional level. however, when someone says “albert pujols will hit.” it is absolutely implied that they think albert pujols will hit. why? because even past performance doesn’t guarantee future performance. nothing does. and that is why when someone makes a claim about future performance and presents it as fact, it should automatically be assumed that they are either a) implicitly saying that such is their opinion or b) that they are a moron who have absolutely no understanding of basic logic.
if you want to assume i am a moron, fine. i tend to give the benefit of the doubt to people who are able to form coherent sentences and have a better than tenuous grasp on the english language. that would include most, if not all, veb posters. but this is just my nature. perhaps you have reason for going with option b.
sorry it took me so long to actually state in concise (or tried to at least) words exactly how my statement implies that it is was an opinion. to be fair though, i take you as a fairly intelligent individual and assumed to be being combative for the sake of the debate. apologies if my perceptions were incorrect. genuinely
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I'm not trying to start a flame war
and I don’t like to argue just for the sake of arguing. I just feel that people’s misconceptions about certain farm system players are out of whack, and when I see someone state that Brett Wallace “will hit” at the next level and thus “we should not have traded him” I get ornery.
We all overvalue our own prospects. It’s true. I try to temper this by looking at what other people, not related to VEB or the Cardinals seem to think about our prospects. The general consensus that I’ve seen is that most people believe that he will hit for high average, with doubles power, but may not be a .500 slugger at the big league level. I tend to agree with this assessment, which is part of the reason why I thought the trade was a good one for us. I do believe that some of the sheen will come off of Wallace if he would have spent another year at AAA while not mashing tons of homers. If he struggled at Memphis next year, people would begin to doubt him as a top prospect, and if he can’t play 3B there simply isn’t any place for him in our organization and we won’t get good return for him.
For example, Anthony Reyes. There is no doubt in my mind that we could have gotten back a good major league rental for him in 2005. But once he struggled at the big league level in 2006 and 2007, there simply wasn’t much of a market for him at all. Similarly, I think that Wallace’s value to the Cardinal organization was at it’s peak last year, and they went out and got the absolute best hitter on the market for him. Now, had the Cardinals signed Raul Ibanez instead of Kyle Lohse at the end of 2008, and subsequently needed a pitcher, I’m sure that Wallace plus another prospect could have made a move for Cliff Lee, and that move would have been a better one for the organization. But that wasn’t what the team needed at the time — they needed a left fielder who could hit above replacement level.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Now, had the Cardinals signed Raul Ibanez instead of Kyle Lohse at the end of 2008, and subsequently needed a pitcher, I’m sure that Wallace plus another prospect could have made a move for Cliff Lee, and that move would have been a better one for the organization. But that wasn’t what the team needed at the time — they needed a left fielder who could hit above replacement level.
I thought you thought a run saved = a run scored? We had replacement-level 5th starters most/all of last season.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
Replacement level 5th starter is acceptable
Replacement level LF is not.
Most teams are going to find it hard to get league average starting pitching from their 5th starter, and since he’s only going to pitch around 150 innings a season, unlike the 200 or so you’re going to have your other starters pitch, it’s not near as big a deal, especially down the stretch of a season.
We had the best starting pitching in all of MLB this season, and one of the worst offenses in all of baseball. How can you make the case that we needed Cliff Lee as our fifth starter then?
A run saved = a run earned, but you still have to score runs to win. You can’t win with 0 runs and you’ll only win about 5% of your games scoring 1 run.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'm never wrong.
…ever.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
If you’re actually being serious here, I think you need to work on anger management and reconsider your definition of “civil.”
I'm being as civil as anyone else
When someone disagrees with you, your tone is a lot worse, imo.
It’s hard to have any type of civil converstions with “prophetjohn” because he is never, ever wrong. He is a “prophet” in his mind and will always be right, and will act like a troll if you tell him he’s wrong — this has been shown numerous times.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
haha
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
no
i just said he is going to hit
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i have always seen Wallace
As Casey Kotchman without the glove
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
But you don't know that.
You, um, can’t know that, unless you just came back in time from the future. You THINK he’s going to hit. Other people THINK he’s going to hit, but people thought Mark Hamilton was going to set the world on fire too, and then he didn’t. Alex Gordon and Cameron Maybin were supposed to be awesome……and they haven’t hit at all yet at this level. Andy Marte was supposed to be the second coming…………………and he’s nearly out of baseball.
You treat your own conjecture as fact, so that if he does produce offensively, you can come back and say “Ha! I was right! We should have kept him! See, I’m smarter than Mo!”. Only when that doesn’t happen, I rarely see anyone admit they were wrong and that Mo was right. It’s easy to be “right” all the time if you never have to deal with being wrong and never have to make the decisions and fact scrutiny.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Looks like their is only one to decide this
╰▄━▄╯
We have to go back to the future
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's heavy Doc....
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i already have a's games to my tivo
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
can freese play 2nd?
if so, maybe bring a bat in for 3rd.
maybe atkins can be the new k-bot!
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
low hanging fruit? really?
/goes to find that pot of boiling water to stick head in
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Well if the Tigers
are really interested in trading Miguel Cabrera (or Curtis Granderson) the Cards simply do not have the prospects to make a play for other middle of the order bats.
it is not the caliber of the player I have issues with
it is the term “low hanging fruit”
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I was hoping I was not the only one!
Wait…what?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Man boobs!
yes, I said it
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 8, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, that is the picture I always get in my mind when I hear that phrase.
I don’t know if this is good news for my brain, or bad news for your brain.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
leave me out of this damnit
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
You've already got a third line in your signature.
You should add some of that quote back in.
Now with extra feisty!
sometimes it's 3, sometimes it's 4 lines
i think it depends on where i post. i don’t want to go bigger than 3 lines. that’s just too big for a sig
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
hamstrung financially to do what exactly?
what is the point of being “financially flexible” if your team sucks? Having financial flexibility isn’t a good in and of itself.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
especially when the best player in the game, who plays for you, says wins > money
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Yes, wins are more important than money
But that doesn’t mean Albert will be taking $15 million from the Cards to ensure the team is competitive. The difference between $25 million and $27 million a season is probably negligible when the real issue is allotting $50 to $60 million of a $100 million dollar payroll to two players.
Garcia is ten times more valuable than Dunn
That is not an understatement. The money you save with Garcia you can spend else where. The Cardinals were always going to need a 4th starter for the off season. They have once again set the market for pitchers. $9M for Brad Penny must of made a lot of pitchers happy out there.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
JAIME GARCIA
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not very keen on Dunn
I see the appeal in the bat but his fielding in LF is atrocious. I’ve survived one Chris Duncan, I’m not sure I want another (and according to every fielding metric I can find, Dunn is WORSE than Duncan).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
comparison:
Duncan in LF: -10.7 runs/150 games, according to UZR. .975 FP.
Dunn in LF: -12.4 runs/150 games, according to UZR. .968 FP.
Dewan’s +/- prefers Duncan as well, IIRC. It’s close but, yep, looks like Dunn is WORSE THAN CHRIS DUNCAN at playing the field.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I call it a wash.
That’s splitting hairs with UZR, which UZR shouldn’t be splitting, IMO. That small of a difference in fielding percentage isn’t that massive to me, either. They are both poor defensive OFers.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yes, that's fair enough
suffic to say, Dunn is a f’ing butcher. I think we can all agree on that.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You're comparing careers
Look at Dunn’s trending in LF per UZR/150: -21 in 2007, -20 in 2008, and -38 in 2009.
yeah
i was thinking that dunn was significantly worse than duncan, but didn’t feel like looking it up
those original numbers must also include his time at 1b
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
The original numbers were LF only, but they’re still career and that includes +11 in 2002, -5 in 2003, and -4 in 2004. Those days are long, long gone.
You could argue, potentially, that he just cared more then
and that he’d be better on a team that mattered.
I’m not saying that’s the case, and I certainly have no evidence, but it is a reasonable possibility.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
why is attacking his work ethic reasonable?
when his size and age make a more reasonable and likely conclusion on why he has gotten worse defensively in the OF
That's a rather choice way of phrasing it.
I would prefer ‘questioning his motivation’.
Besides, I was merely playing devil’s advocate.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
Well, suppose I were to question your racism
Would that somehow be more fair if I chalked it up to Devil’s advocacy? I think it’s better to ask honest questions, and stand behind them.
That's a pretty extreme comparison.
Especially considering I was actually being more optimistic about Dunn, and not in any way challenging his morals or his character.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
Assertion notwithstanding, questioning a baseball player’s effort is little different in my mind from questioning a judge’s fairness or a ditch-digger’s ditch-digging; it’s their very job definition. Try it to their faces sometime :)
The example was extreme, but I think it fairly illustrates the liability problem with asking questions “in character.”
Are you guys Adam Dunn's parents, or his buddies from HS or something?
Look, I went FAR out of my way to say that it was merely a possibility, using the words ‘could’ and ‘potentially’.
Then I SPECIFICALLY said I wasn’t saying that it was true or that there was any indication it was true, and that it was strictly a possibility.
Sorry if I edged toward your pet peeve, but your accusing me of something I’m simply not guilty of.
Further, you’re assuming that I meant his effort might have been subpar. It’s just as likely that I meant his effort might have been exceptional in his first three years and merely average thereafter. But that wouldn’t allow you to saddle up on your moral high horses would it?
Nobody gives it 110% every single day, every single year. I don’t think it’s unfair to propose the possibility that someone worked harder in some years than others. It’s human nature.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
So, you’re just asking questions?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
f'in love it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Nope, but I’ll disagree with you as long as you continue to respond providing reasons. If you want a bit of anti-bias backup, see above where I chime in just to illustrate how poor his fielding is. I don’t want Dunn to be a Cardinal, and think he should DH.
“I’m not saying this is or isn’t the case, but you could argue that…” is disingenuous – see hazel’s response. Honest statements and honest questions are, well, honest.
In your own words, you questioned his motivation.
Saying “it really isn’t” isn’t an argument, and neither is accusing those who respond to you of witch-hunting. I don’t think any of this is of great consequence, but understand that you have and continue to set your own table here.
y'know, astrostl,
it really isn’t
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Dec 8, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How was I disingenuous?
All I said was, it’s possible that playing for a winning team might rejuvenate him.
And I stand by that. I honestly wonder if it’s mere coincidence that he nearly doubled his already notable negative defensive value in a year in which he played for the worst team in baseball. I honestly think he could be lacking motivation in Washington.
It’s no different than saying that a veteran traded at the deadline could increase his performance on a winning team, or that a guy might do better with a change of scenery, or that a guy feels more comfortable playing close to his hometown.
I never said that Dunn was out there intentionally booting baseballs because he no longer cared. I never said that he was lazy, or that his performance reflected poorly on his character.
In fact I would honestly say that it is pretty damn normal for guys to not play as hard down by 10 runs as they would with the score even in extra innings, or if they’re 20 GB from a playoff spot as opposed to one GB in mid-September.
Now if someone else thinks that makes Dunn, or any other player, a bad guy, so be it. I however do not think that means he’s a bad guy or has bad character or work ethic, and I don’t appreciate it being made out as such.
To reiterate, for clarity:
1. I DO think it is reasonably possible for Dunn to put up better numbers than -38 runs fielding, especially if he was playing in a more positive atmosphere than for the Nationals in a 103 loss season.
2. I do NOT think this is a fault in his character.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
“questioning his motivation” (your exact words) and then distancing yourself from it when pressed by playing the Devil’s advocate card is disingenuous.
You could argue, potentially
I’m not saying that’s the case, and I certainly have no evidence, but it is a reasonable possibility.
Besides, I was merely playing devil’s advocate.
Look, I went FAR out of my way to say that it was merely a possibility, using the words ‘could’ and ‘potentially’.
Then I SPECIFICALLY said I wasn’t saying that it was true or that there was any indication it was true, and that it was strictly a possibility.
That’s a whole lot of but-but-but. Think or don’t think, say or don’t say. It’s easier!
just say you think Adam Dunn is a lazy POS and be done with it.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
And give us your thoughts on his patriotism.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
well Oquendo made Skippy a 2Baseman
it might take a cattle prod and some Redbird “Commie” propaganda but I am sure Edmonds as maybe a ST outfield coach can make Dunn into a LFer
Edmonds knew how to sell it
If Dunn really is a commie, then he cares nothing about such capitalistic ventures.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I'm just scared for the seismic events
that may be spurred on by Dunn laying out for balls. He’s a big boy.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Well we know he's a commie..but I don't think
there is any evidence of him laying out for balls…not that there is anything wrong with that.
If Jimmy is going to be teaching him
there’s no way laying out for balls will not be part of the tutorials.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
we never did find Boog again
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Dunn’s decent UZR years:
2002 Reds: 78-84
2003 Reds: 69-93
2004 Reds: 76-86
Dunn’s bad UZR years:
2005 Reds: 73-89
2006 Reds: 80-82
2007 Reds: 72-90
2008 Reds: 74-88 / 2008 Diamondbacks: 82-80
2009 Nationals: 59-103
Given that he spent most of his career with the steadily blah Reds I’d sooner chalk it up to age, something which has a conclusive historical pattern of defensive decline. His offense has also been consistently good throughout his career, so I think concerns about effort are even less valid.
I wasn't really thinking in terms of wins, as much as the excitement of his first few years.
Either way, I agree that age is the most likely reason.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
obviously those #s are getting worse because he just doesn't care
we get him out here in baseball heaven with all those pies, and I bet his career turns around.
Really, have you seen Adam Dunn? He just HAS to love pie ( as long as it is not apple)!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
nah - call it "tarte aux pommes," he'll eat it up!
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 8, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's hilarious.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Duncan took weird routes but he did always get his ball, toward the end.
nothing wrong with his nuts….
2008: Despite the fact that he did not touch the ball the entire game, the official scorer takes one look at Adam Dunn and gives him an error
- The Onion*
(watch out for the next item)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I hope the Yankees get Granderson from the Tigers
That will pretty much take them out of the Holliday scenario. Granderson will be a monster at Yankee stadium. Has over a 1.000 OPS there the last couple years. Plus, the Cubs won’t get him. With Holliday I only see 3 times signing him than Red Sox, Giants, or Cardinals.
last couple years?
Stadium just opened last year. No wonder his OPS was so high, he was playing against himself. . .
/sorry for being that guy
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Yankee Stadium new and old
Was always a stadium that was made for left handed hitters.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
OMG...Flim uses "there" correctly!
/loves Flim, but has to give him shit
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
women have always...I mean, yeah, grammar gives me fits as well
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
You're stealing gdm's thing there
he gets angry when you do that.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
he is my younger brother
I ain’t afraid of no gdm, no way, now how!
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
everything i learned, i learned from matty
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
So you only get angry
when I steal your thing… I see how it is.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
he's family, and he's never stolen me bits
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
sonofbiatch
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
That's what you get for changing the avatar
At least that’s the excuse I’m going with.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
spants told me to, you always listen to spants
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Is this the royal you?
Spants doesn’t run my life.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
it was nice knowing you
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
now we have to get him to realize "worest" isn't a comparitive adjective
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
google update
in some sort of recursive irony…
This very article is now the first google result for “Brad Penny” “Country Hardball”.
Do you think Dan ever sits up at night
Pondering the heavy burden of power that’s been placed on his shoulders?
the poor kid thinks i'm a figment of his imagination, what do you think?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
inquiring minds want to know:
does “stick it in his eat” have any correlation to penny via google?
A:
Your search – “stick it in his eat” penny – did not match any documents.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
in the nickname department for penny...
probably jumping the gun a bit, but I suggest a metonymic like DeWallet.
Penny = The Gut.
centiquid sounds like some sort of ancient greek monster.
I like it.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I figured that would be the logical next step!
Great minds think alike and all.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Aaaaand guess what?
I have a new sig!
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 6:25 AM EST up reply actions
Somewhat random question about free agency
What effect, if any, does defense have on a player’s Elias ranking? Obviously the system is flawed, but it just struck me that I have no idea whether defense has anything to do with it or not.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
- 1B/OF/DH: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI
- 2B/3B/SS: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI, Fielding percentage, Total chances at designated position
- C: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI, Fielding percentage, Assists
- SP: Total games (total starts + 0.5 * total relief appearances), IP, Wins, W-L Percentage, ERA, Strikeouts
- RP: Total games (total relief appearances + 2 * total starts), IP (weighted slightly less than other categories), Wins + Saves, IP/H ratio, K/BB, ERA
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
so a 1B or OF's D has absolutely NO bearing on the ranking?
why does this not surprise me?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i am not so sure Fielding percentages and assists
Are exactly valuing defense to much either
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
That was part of my point
I figured whatever defensive stats were used were probably badly outdated. Thanks for the info.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
OT: Albertofstan
I found the Facebook page. The flag looks great. I don’t remember who set it up, but it really should have ducttape’s full diatribe. Also, we need moar members.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
several other stipulations of Albertofstan were scattered around comments.
those need to be gathered as well.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
This does not surprise me
Although we will need more women in Albertofstan soon. It’s lonely there in the winter months. Tell some friends…..
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
just thought I'd drop in a week later
to see if you caught the illini/clemson game?
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
It's been a while....what have I missed here?!
Albertofstan?
I refuse to retro-lurk.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
it all started with a simple typo
and became much, much more
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
This. Is. Awesome.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
i was nominated as pres for life, but it was never seconded or something
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Seriously.
Like I want to celebrate a national “The Bitch F*cked Me Over Day” every week.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Dec 8, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
BURN
and rec
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
the new guy, carball
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Can I be the Secretary of Bacon?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
only if you support my stance, which is this
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I dunno, got lost in the tubes.
Good thing I found that nice Nigerian fellow who promised me millions. Since I already gave him my personal info, he helped me get back.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
there was a pretty interesting story on the planet money podcast recently
about corruption in Nigeria (link)
If I remember correctly, they found evidence for $750M dollars made off those emails. Presumably, a ton more was never found. I had no idea the amount of money one could make with such a simple scam.
by brackenthebox on Dec 8, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
my humble contribution
if y’all need the larger version, let me know
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I'll take the real-life version, please?
And a hearty thank-you in advance.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
gimme a while
cleaning up those pics are slowin this comp down to nil. probably have to restart…. after I catch up on rumors.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
i have so much Stan Musial signed stuff laying around my house
His autograph is nearly worthless since he is so open to signing autographs
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
well I have never sold any of my autographs
I have this awesome bat, ball, and glove holder with all of Stan’s career batting lines and his autograph
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
i have the bob broeg (sp?)
bio of stan that the man signed, “best was he, stan musial” – i don’t know what to make of that, but it is also signed by broeg – an old musial card was in it like a bookmark (still there).
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
that's really cool
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
are you sure it wasnt
“best wishes, Stan Musial?”
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
that would clear things up
i’d never thought about that possibility…hadn’t really thought about the book for years until this discussion. though now i think i’d’ve preferred to remain in the dark with my mystery.
unfortunately i won’t be able to scrutinize things for awhile, as the book and i are presently separated, though it’s all for the best (just making a joke, but i am “out-of-one-town” and in another, as they say)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
the citizenship application is easier than I imagined
I’m in.
Really, the only bad part of bacon is that it makes you thirsty . . . for more bacon
Penny on one year is an OK move, I think.
Though, I’d still have preferred Smoltz or a cheaper contract for Penny.
I’ll still take Smoltz in relief.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
Personally, I would've prefered a more expensive contract for Penny.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Ha ha, I just meant that I don't love the guy, but I don't hate him either.
$7.5 – 9 just seems a touch steep to me.
As long as he only hits 204 IP/$9 million if he’s got an ERA under or very near 4.00, I guess it’s fine.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
I think we could have gotten a better deal on Penny, and I hate the timing
Too soon, and too much guaranteed IMO. Let me get out of the way that I expect him to do fine, and think it will work on a dollars-to-WAR basis. But, here we are – a year after a financially crashed offseason – leading the pack again in signing a pitcher before the market is set. We have a relatively limited budget, a lot of unknowns, and major organizational question marks between LF and 3B. I think the opportunity cost for us at this point is very real. Even if a line was forming to fight over who would guarantee Penny the most money (dubious), there’s no particular shortage of pitchers with mid-four FIPs between FAs not named Lackey and our own AAA staff starting with Boggs. Plus we’ve got Smoltz on record as preferring STL. What’s the rush?
probably very fair comment, I guess.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
just because you assess the players as fungible, doesn't mean the Cards brass did.
If they wanted Penny at that price (because say, Duncan thinks he has more upside than some others), better to get him.
Also, as soon as Penny indicated he was going to sign, I’m sure his agent ensured that there was a line among those teams interested in Penny to see who would guarantee the most money. This isn’t some blind bidding process.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
This.
Many of those mid-four FIP pitchers are injury risks or have no upside- this deal seems good because they’re buying a back end starter for a single year with a shot at production much better than that. Sure, the market isn’t set, but this is nothing like the Lohse II deal- free agents signed in december don’t make radically different dollar amounts than FAs signed in january.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Well said.
Or, um, “well-typed” (?).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Brad Penny doesn’t have a recent history of health either, but as for buying a back end starter with a shot at production much better than that – isn’t that the definition of Smoltz? He can and will pitch from the pen, too, and has the skillset to match (not to mention our RHP relief weakness).
I didn’t compare it to the Lohse II deal, and I explicitly stated that I think the salary-to-performance would be acceptable. I don’t know how much more I can do to express that point other than to say it again, like this: I think he rates to be worth 9M in 2010. To that end, the math checks out. The degree of up-front guarantees, the timing with regard to the market and our unclear situation, and the marginal upgrade over whoever else would have been pitching is where I start to question things.
As far as December versus January, well, how about Lohse’s first deal? March 2008, 1YR/4.25M. I wish I could reference my recollection of the low-and-lower salary trends of last year, but I’ve got nothing but memories of MLB Trade Rumor posts. A signing graph with salaries plotted against time would be very cool, IMO. But anyway, FWIW a phased lowering of prices is exactly what I remember happening last year.
Why does everyone keep
playing on the “Smoltz for closer” card? The dude will simply RETIRE if his only option is to pitch in the bullpen. He hates it there, he’s said as much. He wants to start and someone will allow him to start. Hell, he’ll probably take a smaller contract just so he CAN start.
He will not be in the bullpen for any team at the start of next year. Period. Move on.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I didn’t say closer, and I didn’t say at the start of any year. I don’t think it would be remotely unreasonable to see him in the pen if a starting role didn’t work out, though, and that’s something which would excite me a lot less with other starters. I’ve heard plenty of non-STL rumors about him considering a pen assignment in 2010, but even if unfounded your blustery assertions are unwarranted, unless you’re his agent or his best friend.
If he ends up in the pen at all next year
I’ll take you out to dinner, how’s that?
It’s not bluster, sir, it’s fact. He’s stated 100 million times in the last 3 years that he doesn’t want to work in the bullpen. He signed an incentive laden contract with the Red Sox to essentially FORCE them into starting him or else cut him and allow him to pursue a starting job somewhere else. I don’t care how many internet rumors you may have heard, I’ll take the word from Smoltz’s mouth and his previous actions to pretty well shore up any misconceptions on this matter.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
actually I heard him on ESPN 101.1 right before the playoffs
He said he prefers the Bullpen in the regular season and likes to start in the playoffs
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
I heard the same interview
I thought it was TV around the playoffs, but it might have been repeated. I remember him saying something to the effect of him saying that it maximizes his feeling of having affected the game.
He also said the same thing on an FSM interview
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
See, it would be a lot easier to say, “Huh. I-did-not-know-that!” in response to triplicate evidence when you didn’t previously commit to, “Period. Move on.” and, “It’s not bluster, sir, it’s fact. He’s stated 100 million times” :-)
yes
and if the choice is to start for nationals or be prominent in the bullpen for the cardinals, who really thinks smoltzie goes to the nats? c’mon. this is john smoltz. you think albert wants to win, and carp wants to fuck guys up, well this is john smoltz.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I'm pretty sure I've also seen hot stove reports this off-season to the effect that he would be "open" to working as a reliever
you don’t often get a response from fourstick when you show he’s got his facts muddled, so I wouldn’t hold your breath.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:03 AM EST up reply actions
But you don't know that.
You, um, can’t know that, unless you just came back in time from the future.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You're a dick
That is all. Go troll over at BCB — you’d fit in nicely over there.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
As always
I’m the problem. Fine.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I didn't say that.
I was appealing to you to walk away. Obviously that’s not going to happen.
Now with extra feisty!
I have walked away, twice,
only to get badgered again elsewhere in the thread. Yet people ask me to walk away.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Perhaps that's because you've been here longer.
People expect more from you. I don’t know. But at the time that I made that comment, no one else had asked you anything, and you’d yet to walk away. I wasn’t badgering you at all.
Now with extra feisty!
what makes you think she was saying that?
jesus. she had to quote one of us.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
funny
that quoting you verbatim makes me a dick and a troll
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Dicktrolls.
Hehe
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Who uses AOL anymore?!
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 8, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
omg compuserve
i used to get SO PISSED when my mother would get on that.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
'Member when Juno was neat?
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
yes
barf barf barf
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
what is this? 1994?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
this is true
and at least partly because free agents signed in december set the market for free agents signed in january
that said, it could be worse. look at the nats and pudge. mo probably did what was right
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I think it’s obvious that the Cards brass didn’t, because they intend to sign him. Not sure where you’re going with that one, but I think I clearly denoted the opinion as mine: “I think,” “I hate,” and “IMO” in the subject and initial sentence, for example. That’s me talking, not them (or me for them).
I think Lohse is a good example of the brass thinking it better to get someone, and it not being the case. That being said, I don’t think this is anything on the order of that deal; 9M is fine, I just would have hoped to guarantee less of it and to do the deal after our direction was more clear.
i think Mo is buying stock with TLR
so when we open the season with freese as the starting 3B he can point to penny.
"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy
than ask Penny to step aside
So he can see Freese who was standing behind him.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
god. how bad does that lohse deal look now?
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 1:34 PM EST reply actions
At least as bad as the day it was announced.
Think about the payroll allocation if we didn’t have eight figures tied up in Kyle Lohse.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Holliday and Pujols suddenly become affordable long-term
and we could’ve presumably taken another short-term guy on to round off the rotation this year (Smoltz?).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:06 AM EST up reply actions
OT: Just got a call from my GF......
She just got us tickets in the Commissioners box for the Mariners series. I guess I’ll be making a trip out in June. AWESOMENESS!
* is an Asshat
That's some gift.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 8, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
We did the Cubs series last year.
I’ll probably stick this out with these perks…lol. Also I’ll get to see (barring injury etc.) a kid play that I’ve known since the day he was born. Should be a fun trip.
* is an Asshat
I'm not that old.
Although he did locker next to him this year. Their catcher, Robbie Johnson.
* is an Asshat
gf?
grandfather?
goose feather?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
girlfriend
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
no he would not
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
wow
that was low.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
tough but fair son
tough but fair
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
eh, sometimes it's better that way
and sometimes it not. like right now.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
never let them see you cry son, never let them see you cry
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
hae a feeling
gdm knows what gf means and was playing along
could be wrong
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Three-way trade nearly complete
Puts Granderson with the Yankees and Edwin Jackson with the Diamondbacks.
Probably means Yankees are out of the Holliday Bowl.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
thanks
I’m so used to writing “Holliday” that I’ve been misspelling the real Holiday Bowl ever since Arizona was announced. Finally got it to work to my advantage.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
Am I the only one who thinks this is a huge coup for the Tigers?
Granderson is a nice player but he needs to be platooned. Edwin Jackson is questionable moving forward for me and Ian Kennedy isn’t much more than a #5. Max Scherzer is better and cheaper than Jackson, Schlereth has a heck of an arm on him, Austin Jackson should at least be a good fly catcher in the Tigers’ Stadium and I have no idea who Phil Coke is but the cocaine jokes should be worth that trade.
I don’t see this from the DBacks side AT ALL. I kinda like it for the Yankees but I love it for the Tigers.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
ditto
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i also don't see this from the DBacks side and I am a huge fan of Ian Kennedy
I also agree Max Scherzer is better than Jackson. Granderson will be a monster in Yankee stadium. Tigers dump salary and got better.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
somebody in the AZ FO fell down and bumped his head.
i wouldn’t trade jackson straight up for scherzer.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
FWIW
on AZ Snakepit (the SBN blog for the DBacks) the response isn’t quite as wrist-slitty as I imagined. It’s probably about 50:50 “Wow this sucks” and “Let’s wait and see”.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:09 AM EST up reply actions
Jackson...
has two years at around $10 million total before free agency… most likely scenario he’s a 200 inning, 4.5 fip-type guy. Trading Scherzer for this is nuts, unless they know something.
MB for LF in 2010!
He's been on the DL...
for a shoulder problem, but he came back strong last year…. fip solidly under 4, more than a K per inning… there’s no obvious reason to trade that except if they think he’s an injury risk. They’re cashing him in now, which is defensible, but for Edwing Jackson?
MB for LF in 2010!
Yeah
even if they think Scherzer is going to get hurt in future, they could’ve got so much more than Edwin Jackson. This seems to be selling REALLY low. I’d have held out for Phil Hughes, I think, and tried to get Kennedy as well. Schlereth is a very nice relief prospect (think Jesse Todd, minimum) as well, so he’s barely a throw-in; he was a 1st round draft pick, too.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:11 AM EST up reply actions
Jackson = Brad Penny
in terms of results.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
i am honestly not even sure Jackson is that good
I am not high on him at all
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think he is
Outside of the first half of this past season he’s not really pitched well for any extended period of time.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
I think they're thinking that the time is now on capitalizing on Scherzer's hype/potential as a starter
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Hype? Potential?
He was already a 3 WAR player last year. Even if he just holds par, he’s liable to perform as well as Jackson.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
well, I think Jackson and Scherzer are the same age....
so if one can imporve, so can the other. that’s not really an argument for Scherzer. The better argument is that Scherzer is cheaper than Jackson.
Also, the “hype” I was referring to is the hype that Scherzer will become more than a 3 WAR player – most people who love Scherzer don’t think last year was his top-end.
And there’s been also been plenty of speculation that Scherzer is destined at some point to be a back-end reliever, primariy due to injury concerns. So, if the D’Backs think he’s not going to reach his potential as a starter, then you might as well trade him when others still think he will be one.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Jackson has quite a few years of suck behind him, however
i.e. some track record of not being as good as he was last year. Scherzer’s track record is somewhat better, and, as you said, he’s a lot cheaper and under team control for more years. He’s also moving to a better pitchers’ park.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:08 AM EST up reply actions
They must think that Jackson will be better than Scherzer
and that Jackson and Kennedy will fill two holes in their rotation for a little over $1.5M more than they would be paying Scherzer next year.
I don’t see Schlereth in the deal that was linked to, so I don’t know where you’re getting that.
I think it’s good for the Tigers, but they’re taking some risks. Scherzer hasn’t been that impressive at the big league level yet and seems to have injury issues, and I’m just not sure how good Austin Jackson is. The Yanks have a huge hole to fill in LF — if they thought he was any good, why aren’t they keeping him to fill that hole? He had a .334 wOBA at AAA last year — that just doesn’t scream top prospect to me. I think Daryl Jones is probably better.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Scherzer hasn’t been that impressive at the big league level yet and seems to have injury issues…
I’ll obviously buy the second part b/c his delivery is so wacky and he’s already had injuries in college and pro-ball, but the kid had a pretty damn fine year this year. 9.19 K/9, 3.33 BB/9, 3.87 FIP, and 3.2 WAR. He’s got some questions about how long he can go in starts because he seems to throw a lot of balls (if not resulting in walks), but the guy’s pitch quality is pretty darn good.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Scherzer is my fantasy sleeper going into next year
Aside from being a Mizzou boy, he’s thrown 65% strikes for his career at a 75% contact rate. (Jackson at 61%/80% contact.) For reference, Lincecum is at 64% at a 74% contact rate career. It’s almost amazing that he’s thrown that many strikes (and swing and misses to boot) yet has the average walk rate.
Not afraid to nitpick
That's kinda what I was getting at....
He’s got some questions about how long he can go in starts because he seems to throw a lot of balls (if not resulting in walks), but the guy’s pitch quality is pretty darn good.
I should have been more specific. He really has trouble getting past the 5th inning, which I would consider a problem if I’m looking at a front of the rotation starter. He does have great stuff — I guess if you look at him from a Rich Harden type perspective, where you only anticipate getting 150-160 innings, he’s a really good pitcher. I’m just not sure you want to count on that from one of your top two starters.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Ah... I see
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
I think the under-rated side of this deal, for the Tigers
is the two relief arms they got. They’re not stars, but they’re both at least as good as Lyon/Rodney and a buttload cheaper. Coke is probably comparable to KMac/Jess Todd in that he’ll be an OK 7th inning guy with average-to-above-average peripherals, and Schlereth is a potential closer, or, at least, a potential Mike Gonzalez type. Schlereth will be under control for 6 years (I think) and Coke for 5.
They got a lot cheaper, and a fair bit better, I think, although they might be a tiny bit worse in 2010. Great trade.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:14 AM EST up reply actions
Am I the only one who thinks this is a huge coup for the Tigers?
Not at all. I think they’re winners on this, bigtime. I also think the Yankees have done OK.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:07 AM EST up reply actions
no clue what the d-backs are doing trading schlereth and scherzer for jackson and kennedy
lateral move at best unless you really think kennedy had the chutzpah to start still….although this article doesn’t say schlereth is in the deal. if its just scherzer for kennedy and jackson then i like it much better.
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
by slu on Dec 8, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know either
It’s dumb to me. The Dbacks are swapping two guys with big upsides for the AAAAer Kennedy and Jackson. Doesn’t make any sense unless they think Jackson’s first half of 2009 is indicative of something bigger.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's because they're planning to flip Kennedy for Joe Thurston.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
I am personally a huge fan of Ian Kennedy
I wanted the Cardinals to trade Ankiel for him
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah me too really
He continually dominates AAA and you’d think he’ll eventually convert that to the big leagues.
Not afraid to nitpick
ian kennedy might be alright
he put up some good numbers in the low minors and only had a cup of tea at the big league level. and that’s against the nl east
think the dbacks might not look like total tools when all is said and done
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
al east*
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Boras weeps to see Yankees name can no longer be used in negotations with other teams.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
The Yankees should still sign Holliday
Let Cabrera ride the bench and don’t re-sign their aging left field DHs.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
agreed....
melky is a 4th outfielder. Yanks should still sign Holliday.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Over at fangraphs
…a couple of commentors seemed to think this ruled them out of the Holliday sweepstakes, but I don’t think that it does. They don’t HAVE to resign either Damon or Matsui, and really I think it’s in there interest to make a run at the younger, better fielding Holliday and use Cabrera as their 4th OF.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't feel it
I think they Yankees would rather have Damon or Matsui on a one year deal. Better OFer’s to sign long term next season like Carl Crawford.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
that's the rumor, they are going all in for Crawford next year
although i wouldn’t be surprised if they just got both. but since they are supposedly dropping payroll, who really knows. you know?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
they won't sign holliday
just to dispel the notion they buy championships.
/half-kidding
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Well this season will be odd.
Granderson with the Yankees. Can’t picture it.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
i bet he puts up over a 1.000 OPS in Yankee Stadium
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure he will.
Just can’t see it in my head, the image. He’ll do really well there.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I really like Grandy
seems like a great guy, as well. He did a “weekly diary” thing for the Baseball show in the UK on channel 5 a few years ago. Had a lot of time & effort for the guys even though I assume he was being paid little/nothing (at least compared to a big leaguer’s salary) and the show wouldn’t even be seen by anyone in his country.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:17 AM EST up reply actions
I really do like him.
It will probably make me a bit sad to see him in a Yankee uniform.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I'm literally feeling sorry for Diamondbacks fans right now
This trade is obviously awful for them. What is their FO thinking?
If no Holliday, then get Beltre and DeJesus
I’d prefer Holliday and Freese over any configuration, but if Holliday exceeds $20m per year then Felonius Monk has talked me into signing Beltre.
Beltre’s three year splits feature an .819 road OPS and a .917 OPS vs LHP. He’s asking (reportedly) $10m per season, a value he has exceeded every year except 2003 and 2005.
DeJesus obviously is harder to get because you have to trade for him, but he plays plus defense and could be counted on to get on base better than 35% of the time from the two spot in the lineup. He and Schumaker would be a great pair to hit in front of Pujols, as both can run but neither really steals bases, and they both will post OBPs around .350 to .375.
Holiday will be around 6 WAR, and Freese should be around 2.
Beltre will be around 4 WAR, and DeJesus around 3.
Your lineup: Skip, DeJesus, Pujols, Ludwick, Beltre, Rasmus, Molina, Pitcher, Ryan.
That lineup wouldn’t lead the league in runs, but it would do fine while playing some great defense behind a sinker ball staff.
This roster would also be well within budget (by the time you account for probably adding a RHP to the bullpen), and Beltre and DeJesus are both only 30 years old.
by pitchingandefense on Dec 8, 2009 2:15 PM EST reply actions
I honestly think the DDJ/Craig platoon in left could be a 4-win proposition
it’ll cost about $5m/yr for the next two years. Only a win or two short of Holliday, for about a quarter of the price (plus the prospect(s) we give to the Royals could be somewhat recouped by Holliday’s draft pick compensation). DDJ has averaged over 3 WAR for the last five years (nearer 3.5 actually), taking just over 500 PAs/yr. Give him all the PAs against RHP (who he OBPs a tasty .380 against) and give Craig the ~ 200PAs against lefties (I think he’s projected, based on CHONE and his minor league MLEs the last two years, to be an above-average hitter of left-handed pitching, and he’s probably in the ballpark of average with the glove in LF) and that’ll probably be about a win or so above replacement.
It’s really flexible as well, DeJesus can play CF (and isn’t terrible vs LHP), and whoever is benched will be a very useful PH bat in the latter innings.
If I did this I’m not sure I’d get Beltre – depends on his price. 3/30 wouldn’t be too bad, though I might like a slight discount on that (?). That spends pretty much all of the rest of our budget. I’d either go Beltre + a cheap bullpen arm or two (Calero, Springer, maybe even Putz or Gagne or something), or grab someone like Hinske or Branyan as a bench bat/occasional 3B starter vs RHP and spend a bit more on the pen, with either Smoltz as a swing-man or trading for Raffy Soriano (if the Braves don’t want much in return).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:24 AM EST up reply actions
i would pitch a tent over that platoon...
but who would you think it would take to get DDJ? Would it take DJ Tools? if so i would be less excited about that…i wonder if they would have any interest in Anderson since we sure as hell dont and maybe a Boggs or Walters, hell i do Boggs and Walters if that would get it done…i dont think either has much of a future with the club although i think Boggs has some potential value out of the pen.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
I think they need just about everything
I’d hope, given Moore’s commitment to sluggers with limited defence, that we could fit Mark Hamilton in one way or another. I’d maybe look to someone toolsy who might appeal to them, Adron Chambers or something, and probably a pitcher of some variety as the centrepiece. I think I could get behind Lance Lynn or Boggs or somebody, although I’d hope to do it for less.
DJ Tools seems like a fairly steep price but we’re trading 6 cost-controlled years of a guy who may not be much more than a 4th OF at some point in the future for 2 very cheap years of a productive OF now (who we could probably extend for less $ than he’s actually worth, if we wished) when we’re looking to contend. I think I would do that, actually, although it’s possibly trading a bit low on Jones, he remains very much NOT a sure thing as a ‘spect. I’d say DeJesus (with maybe a touch more speed) might pretty much be Jones’ MLB ceiling, actually, and it’d be more likely than not that he’s never that good.
Maybe we can re-structure DeJesus’ deal (4.5m next year, 5m team option the year after) so that we pick up his option and then pay him maybe $12-14m combined for the two years after, perhaps with the final year being a vesting option? That makes Jones largely unnecessary, and we’ve got DeJesus, a 3-win OF, for the next four years at a little over $20m in total. Mind you, DeJesus IS 30 now so perhaps we wouldn’t want him until age 34, still, he’s still probably somewhere in the region of league-average as a 34-year-old platoon piece even if he loses a step and a touch of pop.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
i always forget about Hamilton
but they have Butler and Ka’aihue and Hosmer…i wouldnt want to part with Lynn because i think he could be a #3 or at the very least an innings eater which is also very valuable…Chambers i dont know a lot about but some seem very high on him…they need outfielders which maybe Hamilton could fill, i know he is trying it out anyways, maybe Henley but he would have to be packaged with a better prospect i would think.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
I'm pretty low on Lynn personally
Chambers is a toolshed with a decent OF glove and speed. Probably won’t pan out as anything much but the sort of physical tools that old-school scouts occasionally get excited about. Plate discipline and power probably won’t turn into a major leagu bat.
I would be fine with giving up Henley, even though I like him.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
maybe even Freese?
I know that leaves us without an internal 3B (and they’ve got Moustakas anyhow, who I think is going to end up at 3B, so maybe it’s a non-starter, plus Alex Gordon, but both of those guys are flopping bigtime at the moment, one way or another).
I guess you’re right – maybe OF, middle infield, pitching. I wonder (as they seem to have no interest in defence) if we couldn’t sell them the idea of Aaron Luna as a possible 2B option. His glove can’t be any worse than Mike Aviles’.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Thoughts on the Yankees-Tigers-D-Backs trade?
Granderson to Yankees, Edwin Jackson and Ian Kennedy to AZ, and Scherzer, Schlereth, Phil Coke, and Austin Jackson to the Tigers.
I don’t get this from AZ’s view. Do you really trade Scherzer and Schlereth for Jackson and Kennedy?
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
i think the only way it makes sense if if you think...
E. Jackson and Kennedy are starters and Scherzer will soon become a reliever. I think the D’Backs know something (or think they know something) that we don’t about Scherzer.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
He did have elbow problems in 2008.
Either way, Scherzer’s health or Jackson’s mirage, you’re gambling.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
i think this means mo should offer 5y $80m to boras for hollday.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Once they Bay turned down the Red Sox's initial offer
I think they became the bigger concern.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
i'd love to have Swish
but only if he brings joanna garcia with him
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
He would be a great option for us
but I fear the cost would be steep. He’s probably not available and we’d need the Yanks to sign Holliday first, I expect.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:26 AM EST up reply actions
could be
was my first thought also. But Gammons is leaving ESPN
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Gammons to MLB network.
http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2009/12/peter-gammons-to-leave-espn
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
and here i was just about to upgrade to get MLBN
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
he's become the f'in sawx PR guy, it's just too much for me
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
And the Indians.
From what I’ve seen he likes the Indians so I forgive him.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
He uses OPS and isn't Ken Rosenthal
by vivaelpujols on Dec 8, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
maybe he'll be better now that he's away from the WWL
but for the last 5 or so seasons he’s mostly all sawx all the time. like he loves the Walrus, but every time he talked about him he would say he should go to bean town.
and yeah he does like the tribe too cgirly. but mostly he’s all sawx all the time
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
oh & by the by
he’s also working for nesn now
the defense rests your honor
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i had no opinion
until i read his article about how holliday and bay are equally productive
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
its worth it
just for all the “classic” games. they had fidrych’s start on monday night baseball vs. nyy from 1976 a couple nights ago. it was awesome. the very next day i flip there and its a cards cubs game from 1984. the one in which mcgee and sandberg drove in like 12 runs or something.
I wish you people would stop torturing me with the MLB Network greatness
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
and harold reynolds
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Aww. I like Mitch Williams *and* Harold Reynolds.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
why do women like that creep HR, yet hate me?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
he's personable
very popular on-site at little league world series, can tell you that – before espn fired him
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Harold Reynolds is funny, self-deprecating, quick with a comeback
and fairly knowledgeable about baseball.
I like him on MLB Network, esp. when they were discussing NL MVP before it had been announced. Everyone picked Albert (of course) and Harold started to make an argument about how it should be someone else, totally deadpan, and then he said “Naww, I’m just messing with you! Of course I’m gonna pick Albert!”
My paraphrasing doesn’t translate well, but I assure you it was pretty damn funny.
I also liked watching him run around like a little kid while covering the All-Star Game.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
BUT HE'S A CREEP WHO CHEATS ON HIS WIFE!
f it, just kill me now
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Really? Are you sure?
Do you have any proof? I looked pretty hard and I couldn’t find any evidence of that.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
This was his story and he's sticking to it:
“It was a total misunderstanding,” Reynolds told the Post. “My goal is to sit down and get back. To be honest with you, I gave a woman a hug and I felt like it was misinterpreted.”
* is an Asshat
that's his story, but her story is completely different
he pulled a mike tirico on her & at least one other woman. deadspin covered a lot of this
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
you, of all people
should not believe propaganda started by the WWL
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
if not for my reporter friend backing up the storys, i wouldn't
when it comes to people cheating, especially guys, i don’t f around. it pisses me off to no end because they are taking for granted & throwing away something i’d probably kill for
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
actually
i don’t care so much for their “reporting”. the games are pretty much the only thing i watch on there.
Well I thought it was a joke
But threw it up regardless. I just don’t see how Fangraphs could pay him. But with these dot com venture capitalist who knows.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like this quote from TLR...it just seems to stalkerish
Nick Pietruszkiewicz: “We refuse to believe we are not an attractive ballclub for Matt. I just know we got a good feel about St. Louis, whether it’s the team, fans organization. It’s a plus.”
Basically, it reads like this:
“How could Matt not like me? I’m so pretty and nice! I just know he feels the same way I do. The love, the connection, it was real, I tell you. Real. I have him right where I want him.”
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Dec 8, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
" . . . and that, officer, is why i was 'hiding' in his dressing room."
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
That is one disturbing image you've concocted.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
i did. it's all my fault. i should know spants rises to the occasion.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
"spants rises to the occasion"
that’s what she said just sounds wrong, doesn’t it? not that there’s anything wrong with that, spants.
/kidding
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
it was nice knowing you
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i'll leave you that book
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
score!
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
while singing Happy Birthday to LaRussa
while trying to sound like Marylin Monroe
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's a flag.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
in your pants or you just happy to see Holliday?
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well done.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
i read it differently
“it can’t be only about the money”
“i hope we gain some leverage from that fact that he fit in here, everything else being nearly equal.”
"and I want to bury my face in his manly butt-cheeks"
something like that?
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:28 AM EST up reply actions
Matt to Officer:
“I don’t know, I went on one date with TLR…and he’s talking about marriage and commitment….I mean you know it was just dinner and a movie and all of a sudden he thinks I have to be in love with him…maybe this restraining order will let him know I am just really not that into him.”
—p.s. I obviously really hope this is not even close to what Holliday is thinking.
you guys are asking for it. you really are.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Looks like Holliday is doing his best Marlon Brando as the Godfather
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Tony's all like "I'd be perfect for the role of Tony LaRussa in a Three Nights In August Movie!"
“I’d just have to play myself! Literally! But this producer, he don’t want to give me the part. Brad Penny is from Oklahoma, by the way. What should I do, Godfather?”
And Matt Holliday’s all like, slaps Tony in the face and he says “You can be a man!”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Dec 8, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's a flirt.
He can’t help it if people get the wrong idea.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
is joe mauer a flirt?
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
haha okay.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Grady's hot.
And Colby’s cute.
Maybe when finals are over and andi and I actually make that Good Looking All Star team these differences will be more obvious.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
screw you for having finals already.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
i'm half done with them
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
tomorrow at about 1:45 for me
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
well F you too
NOBODY had them at this time last year when i did, and now it seems like everyone does this year when i don’t and have them a week later. HOW COME TRUMAN CAN’T GET ON BOARD WITH THE COOL PEEPS!!!!?!!!!
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
We had them this time last year.
So does Agnes Scott where Hilary goes. Because Hilary and I flew home together last year.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
that's precious.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
The colder temps
lead to an inability to get on board with the cool peeps… this is a well known fact.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
good to know.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
Lots of people hate Truman right now.
Because of Finals. I figured y’all were in the middle of them too.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
nope, final week
i get home next friday. FML
who have you talked to?
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Dreamy Joe doesn't need to be
at least, that’s what I heard
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
didn't you say that about yourself a week or two ago?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I don't know.
It’s possible. I am a bit of a flirt.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
didn't someone think you were hitting on me?
i got a good laugh outta that.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I remember that.
Yeah. I’m fairly sure I flirt with everyone, except maybe the girls.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
i've never thought that about you
but then again a woman would literally have to hit me over the head with a blunt object for me to realize she was. i’ve been embarrassed way too many times in my life thinking that was going down & i wasn’t even close. so i just always assume it’s never happening now.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
date doctor!
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
uh?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
hitch
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
trailer?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i thought that was a crappy rocom?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
latest tweet on holliday -
from ed price:
"Red Sox have told people if they don’t get Jason Bay they will not spend on Matt Holliday. And word is Mariners pushing on Bay."
where would that leave the sox? trade market (willingham?).
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
that's what i'm trying to figure out.
yankees acquisition of granderson might make likelihood of damon signing elsewhere more probable, too, which changes the market a bit.
by RedbirdAvenger on Dec 8, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
That would be beautiful.
My fiance would be so pissed off. She hates Damon for jumping to the Yanks.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 8, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
i can't see Bay with the Mariners
They seem so defense oriented to get him. But I guess they have some defense to spare
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
he could DH half the time
he’d still be a ~3 WAR guy as a DH.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:30 AM EST up reply actions
damn--the cardinals just might pull this off
if the braves, yankees, red sox, and giants are all out of it, who’s left?
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
really?
/honestly don’t know
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
No not at all
I think they’re trying to figure out how to actually have a negative payroll.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
im sure there are lots of people who would pay to start on a major league team..
don’t those fantasy camps make good money
Marlins are the welfare recipient of the Major League
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
But when they have that new stadium
built in the ghetto they’ll have that problem solved.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Man found a way to make bank
can’t fault him that it just so happened to be a baseball team.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
apparently the marlins turned down
feliz and smoak from rangers for josh johnson. if true, i’m surprised.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
no way
that can’t be true
Feliz is going to be a monster. And he’s got 6 years left. Given Johnson’s a FA in 2 years (I think) I reckon Feliz alone should be enough for a team desperate to shed payroll in all its forms (Marlins). Smoak as well is just gravy.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:31 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, that has to be crap
if the Marlins didnt take that than they are running a franchise…was there a link to confirm this?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
*they shouldnt be running a franchise
is what i mean…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
mets, maybe?
but by all accounts they just have too many holes to fill.
by RedbirdAvenger on Dec 8, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
too many jokes
too little time
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i believe it
look at the money the red sox have tied up, i don’t think they have the room to splurge on a left fielder.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Also, Generally Red Sox do not offer contracts with as many years as Holliday will surely get
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
believe me, I hope the red sox aren't in on holiday
but they are second richest team in baseball and they have a glaring hole in LF. Holliday is the best LF on the market and is better than Bay, ergo, the red sox will be in on Holliday until they sign someone else.
and you may be right about the red sox general tendencies but if they’ll give texiera an 8 year deal (which they seemed prepared to do last year), i think they’ll give holiday a 5 or 6 year deal.
it’s all posturing at this point and the red sox will posture until it’s no longer in their interest to do so.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
we might view that Holliday is better
But maybe the Red Sox value that Bay has already proven he can hit in the AL East. While Holliday has not proven he can hit in the AL
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know that I'd agree that that's a good distinguishing factor
but whatever. I still say that until Holliday signs with someone else or until the Red Sox sign someone who is not Jeremy Hermida to play LF, the Red Sox are in on Holliday.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
We might not see it as a distinguishing factor
But we do have a NL bias. The Red Sox might value Bay and Holliday differently than we do.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
Why isn't anyone seeing this for what it is?
Out is the new in: The Red Sox are attempting to suppress Holliday’s price- if they were out, they’d be floating rumors about their interest to drive up the price.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
i can believe that
It is benefit to both the Cardinals and the Red Sox to create a cloud of doubt around Holliday. That his defense was bad in the playoffs to that he could not hit in the AL. That he is just a NL team. I do believe it is attempt to lower his value.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
It really kind of sort of is.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Mo can be bought for a slice of pizza
but only if the ingredients on that slice don’t interfere with each other and are lined up in a radial pattern.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I honestly wouldn't be surprised
if there was some sort of back room dealings…….
“ok…we go after player a, Teams XYZ say they have no interest, rinse and repeat.
* is an Asshat
If that's the case, well...I just can't fathom the level of stupidity
I actually read on MLB Trade Rumors a couple of weeks ago that Albert Pujols hasn’t proven he can hit in the AL either.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
lou gherig
never proved he could hit in a pink skirt
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Dec 8, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Babe Ruth never proved he could hit in a thong
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
everyone knows ruth was a free baller
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
and i am ecstatic
that they value players in such an antiquated manner
let’s just hope that they also see bay as a “winner” and that holliday “just doesn’t have the heart”
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
you say antiquated
But what if they had more in depth statistics than we do?
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
then
that is not the same as evalutating a player based on whether or not he has proved to hit in a certain league
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
What deal did they give JD Drew?
Cause if he’s gainfully employed there, I can’t see why they wouldn’t be talking to Lego.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
JD Drew while injury prone is still quite a valuable Outfielder
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
I don't love him
I found it frustrating hearing he was sitting out b/c of a sore hamstring all the time…. but he was and is a damn fine baseball player.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 8, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're preaching to the choir on that one
and probably not in the way you intended
by brackenthebox on Dec 8, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
I hated it when he sat out too.
And…
but he was and is a damn fine baseball player.
In more ways than one.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
i f'in hate him, he broke my heart
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
See, there's another one I just don't see.
Jimmy Edmonds? Absolutely. Very attractive. But Drew? Not so much.
Then again, I could also be letting my hatred of Drew colour my assessment.
Here comes the funcooker!
by the red baron on Dec 8, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
Jim Edmonds?
Really? We clearly have very different taste in men RB. ;)
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Well, at least that way we won't have to fight over any of them.
Here comes the funcooker!
by the red baron on Dec 8, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
This is why VEBers make such good friends.
We don’t fight over men because our tastes are so different.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I only fight over men, when I knock one down and then I stand over him and kick his friend's ass!!
Yah…(scratch here and there acting macho)
Sox have plenty of room
this year might bulge a little, but they lose $13M for Ortiz and $10M for Lugo next season. That’s a DH and a Cardinal that needs replacing with $23M. I think Matt can fit into that.
lugo
is really making $10MM next season? ouch
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
they got another $12MM coming off when Lowell departs next year
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
but some funds are certainly earmarked
for gonzalez, i’d imagine. i hate the sox but i’d love to see that guy hit at fenway – seems a deserving chap.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
He will be a total f'ing beast in Fenway
I have an irrational (well, maybe not so irrational, given how good he is) love for all things A-Gone. I think he’ll be the 2nd best 1B in the game once he’s out of Petco (and probably with some daylight separating him and Tex/whoever else).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:34 AM EST up reply actions
as waino would say
word.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
exactly, everyone is saying this just to piss off boras
it’s all gamesmanship. nothing more, nothing less.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i dunno
is that even possible?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Why not?
I mean, I don’t know the rules, but theoretically, he could be more valuable to the receiving team before arbitration. I bet most teams would rather have a hand in determining his salary for next season themselves, than to let the Braves go to arbitration for them.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
makes sense
i just don’t know the rules regarding that. i suppose it would work
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Yeah, but I think he has a NTC (Which has has told the GM he would waive)
until a certain date, but I can’t remember what that date is.
Not important atm, Soriana said he would accept a deal to any team. It’s on MLBTR somewhere.
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
he's already waived it
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/12/rafael-soriano-gives-trade-clearance.html
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Don't have to hope with the Cubs
It becomes reality very quickly :)
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
In a Buster Olney Radio Interview this morning (in the KC area)
he says that:
1) Penny signed below market price for a starter of his past ability. If he can get it together this could be the Cardinals’ biggest off-season signing if they can’t sign Holliday – not because they won’t go after anyone else, but because the contract could be that good for them.
2) Holliday and Boras are starting out at $23 million right now per season. Nobody in the entire league is even giving them the time of day at the moment, except for the Cardinals, who refuse to make an official offer even close to their demands.
3) He thinks that, as soon as the driving price on Holliday is driven down, that the Red Sox will take a chance on him if they can not get Bay to sign the offer sheet still on the table.
4) Holliday will not sign for much more than $80 million – but didn’t say how many years.
intriiiiiguiinngg
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I like Olney
Surprised though he said Penny was a below market deal. Felt about right to me.
$23M is about what I expect from Boras. I think we are sitting at 5 years/$85M. I almost feel an Edgar Renteria part duex coming upon us.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of Edgar Renteria part deux
Olney also said that the kid coming up at SS for the Cubs (who is 19) could conceivably play SS for them at some point this year – and that he is seen as a Renteria clone.
Thats not cool
I guess they have to eventually have a few decent prospects, I hope they trade him and vitters away. Vitters really doesn’t scare me as much now since a lot of the hype has died down outside of chi, and he isn’t putting up monster numbers.
Go Broncos!!
by from First to Third on Dec 8, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Starlin Castro is the name
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
did he say who sees castro as a renteria clone?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
funny you said that....
I feel an “Edgar Renteria part deux” coming on right now too – I’ll be back after I drop him off in the pool.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
For a pitcher of his past ability
I think was the quote, and he’s probably right, considering his “past ability” had him starting the All-Star game a couple of years back.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i like these words
$23MM is hilarious
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
If that's number is real
Boras should be checked for a brain tumor. No sane person would throw that number out with a straight face.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Is it really?
Mark Teixeira got a 8 years/$180M with having worst offensive stats than Holliday.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, but that's the yankees
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Mark Teixeira is also the best defender at his position in the AL
I don’t care what UZR says.
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
best defender at 1B
Not at SS. The defensive gap between Holliday and Teixeira to me is less than 5 runs at most
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
It's probably nothing, actually
if you believe that Holliday is an above-average LF (which doesn’t seem unreasonable).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:37 AM EST up reply actions
worst is not a comparative adjective.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
that's only 5/115 - hardly a ridiculous starting point
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 8, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't see him as a franchise player
If I was running a team… granted it would be run horribly… I wouldn’t spend money like that on a second banana.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
It's not a bad thing to have a bunch of first bananas
Plus it’s unfair to compare people to Albert. He was plucked from the banana trees on the planet Krypton.
i don't see him as a franchise player either
i made a list of position players and he was in the top 30 of MY list, so he could be a “franchise player” somewhere, just not stl (or colorado, imo). of course there really aren’t that many franchise players, more like ten in my view.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Which ten players are definitely better than Holliday?
to my list below I can only add a couple of pitchers, Lincecum, maybe Halladay, maybe _______, maybe Sabbatthia, maybe Greinke (although that’s only based on one out-of-this-world season).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:42 AM EST up reply actions
"franchise player", though, what does that actually mean?
meaningless semantics IMHO. Holliday is one of the top 20 position players in the game, arguably the top 10, actually (not taking into account contract/ceiling or whatever – just purely on current production). The only ones I can think of who are clearly demonstrably better are Albert, Utley, HanRam, maybe healthy Sizemore, Longoria, A-Rod, maybe Mauer. Pretty elite company.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:41 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, lol
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Mauer WAR 06-09:
6.1, 3.0, 5.9, 8.2
TOTAL = 23.2
Holliday WAR 06-09:
4.4, 7.9, 6.2, 5.7
TOTAL = 24.2
I think they’re roughly comparable. This is FanGraphs WAR (so catcher defense isn’t taken into account, just the positional adjustment) so it depends on whether Mauer is above or below average as a defensive catcher (most I’ve heard seems to suggest people think he’s above, but is that just the Gold Glove “he can hit so he must be a great fielder” thing talking? I dunno; I don’t know enough about catching to comment).
FWIW, I imagine there aren’t many players who have a higher cumulative WAR over that time period than Holliday. A-Rod’s 24.6, Utley is 30.5 (wow!), Han-Ram is 25.4, The Great Pujols is leading the pack with 32.7, Halladay is 26 and CC Sabbatthia is 26.1, so they’re all ahead. That’s only 6 players. Think of anyone else?
Sizemore is 21.7 (behind), David Wright is 23.8 (behind), Lincecum and Longoria haven’t played long enough but if you pro-rate their 2 and 3 seasons respectively, Tiny Tim is a shade behind Holliday and Longoria is a shade ahead.
However you slice it, Holliday is in some pretty elite company. I’m comfortable calling him one of the top 10 players in baseball.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Is there a way to get range-based WAR (or other counting) values from Fangraphs without adding it up manually?
Agreed on Holliday, BTW, although I can’t for the life of me understand his extreme offensive success after getting to watch his PAs for half a season. His swing just doesn’t look, I dunno, high-contact effective to me. Sure is, though.
i'd take adrian gonzalez in a heartbeat
over holliday because this is MY (non-WAR) list – i suspect holliday has him beat there. if i was valuing a player for a contract i might look up that list but in evaluating them as ballplayers i get to inject my own biases, idiosyncrasies, etc. into my objectivity. if i were getting paid for my evaluation i would be a tad bit more objective, though “makeup” is still a not-insignificant component of my thinking – for example, if i “watch” a player/prospect/recruit, i watch him big-time.
anyway, non-pitchers i’d take over holliday without giving it a thought: gonzalez, pujols, hanley, utley, sizemore, mauer, longoria, tulo, wright.
holliday can vie for the tenth spot with the likes of arod, braun, texeira, the uptons, beltran, etc. (i personally lump votto in there somewhere in the top 30 but it is, to a degree, a personal bias that goes way back)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I love Gonzalez
so I kinda go along with you there, I also think he’d be a lot better outside of Petco (no real evidence for that), so yeah, I could agree, although he’s WAY behind Holliday on 4-year WAR (only broken 4 WAR this last year).
I don’t agree about Tulo – personally, I don’t rate him that highly. He’s been inconsistent (so far, partly due to injury) and I’d take Holliday ahead of him every day of the week. He’s also behind on WAR by some way (partly due to injury).
Braun’s shitty defense basically rules him out IMO, I don’t think he’s in the class of those mentioned previously. Tex is up there, but again, he’s a similar hitter to Holliday but plays a less valuable position, I think I’d have him slightly behind (and at 18.7 the last four years, so does WAR).
Uptons – meh. They’re both very good, Justin COULD be great. BJ’s bat isn’t going to be good enough, despite his glove, to make this company IMO, and his initials are rude. I think Justin is a long shot to ever be as consistently good as Holliday, but I think he’s entering the “franchise player” discussion.
Beltran, however, I HAD forgotten about – genuine great franchise player IMO, and WAR agrees; 21.5 the last four years, BUT that’s still not as good (or as consistent) as Holliday, however, if you exclude two bad years (2009 & 2005, and I don’t believe you SHOULD exclude them, frankly) he’s been as good or better than Holliday most of the other recent years.
Still, I think however you slice it, it’s hard to conclusively rule HOlliday OUT of the top 10 players in baseball.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
gonna fix that for ya
BJ’s bat isn’t going to be good enough, despite his glove, to make this company IMO, and his initials are
rudeawesomer than his bat
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
why is the starting point of the bidding process even an issue
if boras WASNT trying to get as much money as possible for his player, it would concern me more
"My client will settle for NOT ONE CENT more than a non-roster invite."
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
srsly
dont know why it bothers me so, but it does bug me when fans/media blow hards whine about individuals trying to max out their earning potential when most of us would jump jobs at much less significant amounts of money. And our earning potential isnt tied into our athletic primes like these guys are.
i also got no beef with with Boras or athletes trying to profit off a short window
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 8, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
As long as the Jeff Suppans of the world profit off of other teams,
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Keep it clean folks.
Too much vitriol and name calling in this thread. I’m thrilled that there’s so much baseball to talk about but I’m disturbed by the rapid escalation of the exchanges.
It’s day 2 of the winter meetings. Take a deep breath.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Goosfraba
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
my first warning <3
seriously, though, fourstick, calling you a d-bag was uncalled for. sorry
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
It's ok
things get heated, and I was warned too. I think we just had a miscommunication there — you seemed to be saying one thing and I just didn’t read it that way. I apologize for my behavior as well — it simply wasn’t called for.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i remember a mo quote
something to the effect of all the holliday rumors that were coming out prior to the trade made things more difficult
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
814 comments? HFS
®
looks like my next two hours are filled up
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Lots of it you'll just z through.
Got a little, um, heated in the middle.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
It read as
“Please calm down and be friends, It’s the holidays!” to me.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
i've actually seen a lot worse
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
the horror!
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Wow
i should come around more often during the day…would have loved to see this bad boy unfold as it happened
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
was it really that bad
i feel like he and i specifically have had a lot more intense debates than that
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
it wasn't just you two
nother big time debate about dunn between jmedwick nd others
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
that one never got nasty though, did it?
Hell, the debates are 25% of the reason I come here.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i wasn't really talking about the nastiness
just the debateyness
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
yah...we were part of that one too
we just happened to be on the same side there. No name calling usually when we agree, lol
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
that was just wierd.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 7:43 AM EST up reply actions
it's "weird", monk, and...
that’s what she said.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
where you been
now that you are done with school? I’m one assignment away from being done in the classroom myself.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
on rotation
8-5 job….no time to look at internet during day…and usually too tired at night to really get into serious discussion…plus the good discussion is during the day
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
what kind of rotation?
I head to Hot Springs AR for a neuro rehab in january. Not really looking forward to that one.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
HFS
®
i love hot springs. 6ly, my mom’s family lives down there & i almost moved there this year. the traffic is a biatch though. which hospital are you working at? awesome food too. just don’t go to the one place clinton made famous for BBQ. it’s way overrated.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Hot Springs Rehab
Ive been in the city a couple of times. Agree about the traffic, but it shouldn’t be much of a problem for me. I’ll be staying and eating at the facility and not doing much more than working and studying for boards. I’ll be in touch once I get down there for restaurant suggestions. I just cant see myself eating hospital food 3 times a day for nine weeks.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
there's a ton of good mexican & fish places down there too
you won’t go hungry & you should never have to eat the hospital food. there’s a lot of great places to eat up in LR too. and it’s only an hour away. but stay away from Brown’s in Benton. it’s basically crackle barrel. the BBQ down there is just amazing. there’s local buffet’s & a good cafeteria in the mall too. i’d ask your coworkers where to eat too. almost all the locals know where to go to get a good meal.
oh & Mclards(sp?) is the place clinton made famous. it sucks. 6ly, don’t go there. it’s way to expensive & the BBQ is weak. the ribs are all bone & the sauce is basically vinegar & ketchup
man i’m hungry
i can’t believe they let the traffic get that bad. it was never like that in the 80’s & early 90’s. they should have built more roads & expanded the ones already in town. 270 is so much better than it used to be though. for reals.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
good info, thanks
upside to the hospital food is, its free. So, I’ll be eating it more than I want to.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
outpatient ortho with an emphasis on manual
doing a peds rehab next…could either be the most rewarding 8 weeks of my life, or the most frustrating
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
I'd expect it to be both
what area are you leaning towards? My next rotation after the neuro is an OP with manual emphasis as well. It’s my elective, so that tells you where I’m wanting to go.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
thats my plan too
but if peds is great, i could be swayed
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
money may dictate
where I end up. I’ve found a couple of really good jobs, but I’m not sure they will work out for me. Wife’s a PE teacher and she’ll have to be able to find a job nearby as well.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
i have an interview a week from today
guy seems really interested…and best part: it’s a privately owned practice…so no POPTS
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
that sounds good
Got a buddy back home I could call up today and have a similar job if I wanted it. See my last post as to why that isn’t happening. Good luck with the interview.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Totally OT but totally awesome:
http://www.greatorlandodiscounts.com/ioa/the-wizarding-world-of-harry-potter.htm
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Gammons leaving the WWL
for the MLB network
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
how's Big Z
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
where's Dave Duncan?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
dude
i just got here…i figured it had already been said….this is why 800+ threads are silly
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
it's not that hard to do a find on 'Gammons'
he doesn’t have any VEB nicknames.
just sayin’.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Well, I know what I will be spending my night working on.
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
ehh
next time i’ll make sure to do a search before i bring up a topic
/nerd
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
we're going to need a night time or oveflow thread
it’s gotten really slow around these here parts
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Anybody else want one?
I can put one up if you like.
Here comes the funcooker!
by the red baron on Dec 8, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
oh!
i’m in the mood for an anything goes thread tonight! except if you do it it might end up being 1,500 words.
jd is legend for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 8, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
Kay.
Give me a couple seconds.
Here comes the funcooker!
by the red baron on Dec 8, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
u da man
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
those sweet words
i haven’t heard them uttered in ages
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
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