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Around SBN: Raiders' GM Begins The Purge

SOME LIKE IT HOT (PART TWO); all new Hot Stove Discussion here, 07/12/09

Looks like the previous hot stove post is going to break 700 posts, and, with it, some unfortunate Internet Explorer users' computers.  Thankfully, I'm running Chrome on my Cray XMT, so it's not a problem for me, but maybe drawing a line under the FIRST MEANINGFUL FREE AGENT DEALS OF THE FESTIVE PERIOD isn't a bad idea, now we have a bit more of an idea of how the market's shaping up.

Somelikeithot_medium

via www.ldesign.com


Star-divide

And what of that market?  Well, it seems, if not outright cold, barely luke-warm.  Following the Cards' inking Jason LaRue and Ruben Gotay to low-risk, low-reward contracts that won't cost the ballclub much more than $1m in organisational pocket-change in 2010 even if they both play most of the season in St Louis, we've seen the first couple of genuinely major free agent deals.

 

Marco Scutaro, not a player who interested the Cards, but arguably the best name in a very weak 2010 short-stop crop, inked a highly team-friendly deal with the RedSox which keeps him on the team for two years (plus options) at a considerable discount over his likely production - he's barely average defensively, but has a decent bat with contact skills and a solid walkrate that's translated into a .350+ OBP for the last four seasons combined, so it's likely he'll put up 2-3 WAR for each year he's on the Sox.   Team win.

 

Placido Polanco, a player who we've all wanted at one point or another in the last couple of years, our interest fading as Skip/Lugo gave strong showings last year at 2B and because he doesn't really profile as a 3B, signed with the Phillies to, errrrr, play 3B.  Polanco's skills are arguably declining, and he has no real power to speak of, but he's, well, Yadier Molina with a touch more speed, basically - great contact skills and an ability to average .300+ every year, with a career .350 OBP which has held steady into his 30s, and the ability to hit the occasional xbh.  Hiz UZR has varied at 2B from "average" to "very good", so it's fair to say (based on a +11 run 2009) he has a fine glove, even at 34, that will continue to play well at the cornerstone or the (Some Like It) Hot corner.  Jack Lemmon would approve.

 

Polanco remains a 3-win player, and you'd expect him to continue to be, at the very least, average, over the course of the (sadly, from our point of view as an NL rival) horrendously cheap 3-year, $18m (+ 1yr mutual option) contract the Phillies signed him to.  Even though our collective interest in the guy waned, in retrospect, for this price, there couldn't have been a better fit for us - Polanco is still a solid player at 2B or 3B, hits lefties well and righties adequately, and would fit in the 2-hole well ahead of Albert, due to his solid contact skills and OBP.  He's the ideal LHP platoon-mate for Skip at 2B, with his + defence and above-average hitting of LHP, and would be about average against RHP at 3B, assuming his defence is as good there, allowing David Freese the easier option of playing solely against LHP.  $6m per year is utility-backup money and wouldn't preclude a Holliday signing plus, perhaps, even getting a cheaper arm like Smoltz or Pavano.  Phillies definitely won this one.

 

A similarly bargainous addition was made by the Mariners, as CHONE Figgins, a utility infielder so good he has his own projection system (although it has been shown conclusively to be less accurate and, indeed, omniscient than Baseball Projections' new AMAURY ratings) signed for 4 years, $36m.  Figgins has his warts, among them a slight lack of power (although to be fair he has a similar xbh-rate to Skip Schumaker and considerably more thump than Boog) and a skillset focussed on speed and (until the last two years, when his BB rate has skyrocketed) contact that perhaps doesn't project to age terribly well over a contract that keeps him under team control until he's 36.  However, he's a genuine star-level talent, who has turned himself from "adequate speedy utility guy" to "genuinely excellent lead-off hitter" by showing increasing levels of patience as his career's gone on.  

 

It's very, very unusual for a major-league hitter to go from average plate discipline (~9% BB-rate his first four years in the league) to eagle-eyed God of Walks (~ 13.5% BB-rate his last two years) without increasing his K-looking rate and maintaining his contact rate (~.290 BA), especially moving into his 30s, but Chone Figgins seems to have done it.  His value is largely tied to whether he can maintain that sort of discipline as pitchers "go after" his strike-zone more, but, moving to a weaker league and maintaining his ability to hit stuff thrown in the zone, you'd bet he'd at least manage it for another year or two, perhaps ultimately regressing to be a more average hitter in his mid-30s.  Tie that up with a glove that plays well at 3B (and has only improved as he's got older and more used to being a "full-time" hot corner-ist) and just-about-adequately (despite a poor overall UZR) at 2B, and you've got a fine player on your hands.  He's also (despite a mediocre SB/CS ratio) a fine baserunner with significant speed who can take extra bases aplenty - pretty useful when he's on base in front of the one guy in baseball who can put the ball in play more effectively than any other - Albert Pujols.

 

I assumed Figgy would get in the region of 4 years, $50m+ (indeed, given FanGraphs had him as a 6-win player last year, albeit a massive career-year as he approached free-agency, something like 4/$60m seemed attainable).  4/$36m looks like an absolute steal - he's had some injury issues and should regress in the last two years of the deal, but he's a genuine star now and he's getting paid like a role player.  Yet another team seemingly "winning" in free-agency, even with a ton of talent still in the market.

 

So, this brings us to (IMO) the two best position players left on the table, both of whom we should have legitimate interest in.  Matt Holliday we know about (and bgh's excellent fanpost series on his potential value comes highly recommended), but, using the Figgins/Polanco deals especially allows us to frame the possible market for Adrian Beltre.  Again, I assumed something like a 4yr/$60m deal would be the sort of thing Beltre was after, but rumours suggest he's looking at something like $10m AAV (average annual value), and ideally a 4-year deal.  Figgins, a comparable but arguably slightly weaker player (better OBP and speed, but Beltre has considerably more pop and is an even better fielder) got $9m/yr in a market that had more 3B in it.  Also, critically - Figgins was a type-A free agent coming off a career year, Beltre is a type-B coming off his worst offensive season in years.

 

Whilst the draft pick penalty will have undoubtedly suppressed Figgy's value slightly, it's hard to argue that Figgins .358 wOBA year with 114 runs and 42 SB doesn't surpass Beltre (.305 wOBA, 44 RBI, broken testicle) by some distance.  He also has the "failure" stigma of never quite living up to his absurd 2004 (please don't claim this was anything to do with PEDs - honestly, we're to believe he had ONE FULL SEASON on the juice, and never used it before or after?), despite being consistently above-average and having two 4-win seasons in Seattle. I wonder if the Figgins contract is about what Beltre might be worth, or whether we could even knock off a year and look at something like 3yr/$30m as a likely deal.  

 

Beltre's glove is still peche de la peche (+14 runs/season over 8 years - he is, bar none, the best defensive full-time third baseman in baseball; genuinely peak-Rolen quality), he's (somewhat surprisingly, given his lengthy MLB tenure) one year younger than Figgins, and his season last year was undoubtedly hurt badly by taking a linedrive to the nuts in early August and an unlucky HR/FB rate (although his already below-average walkrate moved further south, and his LD and FB rates both decreased, which may be slightly worrying signs for the Beltre camp).  Also, he's a right-handed power hitter, and as this excellent article at Fangraphs shows, a move away from Safeco and its left-field graveyard (especially into a league which features 3 excellent parks for right-handed power hitters, and generally weaker pitching) should give him a real boost when pulling the ball into LF, even if he will be playing half his games in Busch III (also a pitcher's park).  Even though we likely have a 1-2 win 3B waiting in the wings (Freese) who needs to either be FREED this year or traded (likely for cents on the dollar) to someone like the Twins, could we really pass up the chance to sign a 3-4 win 3B for ~$10m/yr?  Personally, I'm warming to the idea, especially with some pretty attractive ways to make a cheap, above-average LF out of platoon parts (Hinske/DeJesus) with Craig or even by picking up Cameron for 1/$10m.

 

So, what do you think?  Beltre worth a look?  Should we still be holding our horses and playing the long game with Holliday, in the knowledge that some of the other high-end FA may sign for similarly cheap deals in the interim, leaving us with $30m burning a hole in DeWallet and only the Marlon Byrds and Joe Credes of this world left on the table?  Or do you take a totally different tack, look for platoon-mates for the newly FREED Allen Craigs and David Freeses, and step up the hunt for the higher-end free agent pitching talents, or tangle with the somewhat reduced financial might of the Cubs for Mikey C?

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07/12/09?!?

I think this is a little late, FM. J/K, nice post.

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 7, 2009 7:39 AM EST reply actions  

showing solidarity with RB

I decided to go for the UK version dd/mm/yy, which makes a lot more sense than mm/dd/yy or however you guys do it anyhoo.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2009 7:58 AM EST up reply actions  

This is America.

Stop.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Dec 7, 2009 8:15 AM EST up reply actions  

When I say a date

I say, “December 7th, 2009.” Therefore, 12/7/09.

by mojowo11 on Dec 7, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I hear they say 7th of December 2009

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Little known fact

The Great Date Debate was one of the main causes of the Revolutionary War. [citation needed]

by mojowo11 on Dec 7, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

...

And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"

by jd is legend on Dec 8, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

It's un-American to say that extra word.

Imagine how much time is saved over a lifetime by not saying “of”!

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 7, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

it's not like it's two thousand and nine

CE

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

twenty hundred and nine?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I say two thousand nine.

I guess people do say “and” in there. Adding “the year of our lord” is also a nice touch.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 7, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

get with the times!

just say ‘oh-nine’!

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 7, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

D'oh!

I say that, too!

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 7, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

somewhere on the internets

I saw someone saying we should nix the Aughts or Zeroes, and call them the Naughties.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I can get behind that

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 7, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

TWHD

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

how... would you know that....?

I should not ask such things.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

next year

i’m going to say oh-ten just to see how many people i anger

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 13, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

two thousand and oh ten?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 13, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

????

Year/month/date with no words

today is 091210

by Evilfrog on Dec 10, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

the after coitus cuddle time with you must be fun

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 11, 2009 2:47 AM EST up reply actions  

aw hell Zulu. he's 6.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 8:38 AM EST up reply actions  

haha

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 11, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

who cares about the military

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 13, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

jus playin witchu

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 13, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

December 7, 2009

A day which will live in infamy.
You brits might prefer “Remember, remember, the seventh of December”?
I kid, I kid. You write dates however you want, context will clear up any misunderstandings. Unless someone confuses it for slash stats, but that’d have to be a really bad (or awesome, if you do the year/slugging out to four digits) stat line.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 7, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing wrong with the date

Of course I’m a Brit too. I love the use of “peche de la peche”. FM are you sure you’re not one of the BBC online cricket correspondents?

by realbrit70 on Dec 7, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Reasonably.

Although I am a big cricket fan as well. Perhaps you’ve discovered my secret identity!

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Any word on Glaus's health?

 Is there a chance that his arm strength has improved? IF so would anyone think that an incentive laden deal makes sense?

Here is an IDEA for the 13 position players

Outfield:
 Holliday, Rasmus, Ludwick,
Allen, DeRosa

Infield:
Glaus, Ryan, Schumaker Pujols, Molina
Freese, Lugo, LaRue.

by nybirdfan on Dec 7, 2009 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

All our money would be allocated towards offense

Thats close to 40 million on 3 players, and near 10 for a bench player. No way we get DeRosa and Holliday it would be one or the other. If we don’t get Holliday I could see them lean towards Glaus a little more, but Freese is supposed to get his chance at 3rd this spring.

Go Broncos!!

by from First to Third on Dec 7, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Who is Allen?

Allen Craig, I assume. You seem to have spent all our money on position players there, and you’ve likely got at least one too many third basemen, so you might want to reconsider one of Glaus/DeRo.

I think the jury is out on the Glaus arm strength. I’d be open to a very small, incentive-laden deal but I think he gets $5m+ somewhere and I wouldn’t want to be the team giving that out. He looked very poor at the plate to me at the end of 2009.

I really have no interest in DeRosa at the sort of cost that’s been bandied about for him.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah Craig

Sorry about that.

I have no desire to sign DeRosa at 3/27. I really doubt he gets close to that. Wrist injuries are difficult for hitters to rehab from. I would not mind if DeRosa accepts Arb and we get him for 5-6m on a one year deal. He would be great to have on the 25 man roster.
 
If Glaus would take a 2m deal with a chance to make 5 or 6m I would consider it if he could play third. If he is done so be it. I was asking if anyone knew if they heard of any medical report on his condition.

If we sign Holliday I would think we look at Smoltz for 1y 5m, and fill the 5th spot with Garcia. in 2011 we fill Smoltz’s spot with Lynn or Miller.

15-18 m for Holliday
5-6m DeRosa
5-6m Smoltz
2m Glaus

by nybirdfan on Dec 7, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Derosa's wrist should be a non-factor, provided his surgery is successful.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 7, 2009 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

AllenCraig Allen AllenCraig Allen Allen Craig Craig!!!

No Big Show for him until he chooses an-udder name. I think Frank is a nice name.

:=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 7, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I greatly enjoyed the title and accompanying photo.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 7, 2009 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

(So Taguchi said to be headed for the Orix Buffalos, though his agents says MLB clubs are interested)

also, I recommend an em dash after Albert Pujols — it looks like a minus sign.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 10:25 AM EST reply actions  

I completely forgot that Mike Cameron is a concussion risk

He was robbing Corby that last game, and suffered another one.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 11:13 AM EST reply actions  

I am warming up to the idea of Beltre

especially if we want to spend some dough after not signing Holliday (I said if, no jinxies here!). I do like to see the “young guys” but I’m not especially attached to Freese or even Craig, so that’s not an issue. If Beltre can play his usual awesome defense, maybe wOBA in the .330-.340 range, that’d be mighty nice. And there is always the possibility of a National League offensive resurgence. Beltre’s 2004 must be one of the most ridiculous career years in modern times. Can we just build a time machine and go get that guy?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 7, 2009 12:16 PM EST reply actions  

I think, as with every other hot stove topic, it's not a decision that can be taken in a vacuum

i.e. “Beltre good!” or “Beltre bad!”. Until we know how much money people are willing to sign for, we can’t really say. I had no interest in Figgins because I thought he was going to break $50m. For 4/36, I’d have been all over it but I genuinely thought he’d get a lot more than that.

Beltre wasn’t high on my list, either, but given his shitty 2009, and the apparently low market for Figgy, I wonder if he might not even slip through the cracks for 3/30 or something. Whilst Holliday remains the best free agent available, could we really say no to Beltre for 3/30 (and then go out and add another OF AND some pitching) instead of Holliday for 6/120, no matter how attached we might be to Lego?

The same thing is true of pitching – most of the decent FAs have some warts that’ll depress their value, and it’s really hard to decide what sort of price they might sign for. I’d love Smoltz back but if he wants what he got last year (perhaps even more), i.e. $5m guaranteed going up to 8 or 9 based on appearances, and the Carl Pavano market is depressed by his poor ERA and W/L record last year (despite solid peripherals and 200 IP) such that he’s available for $5m flat, well, I’d have to say Pavano is the better bet, much as I love Smoltz. Same with Harden – for 1yr/$10m or something he’s a great, short-term gamble for a team that can afford to take one, but if he wants multiple years, maybe he’s not so desirable.

We all have our pet players and projects, but it’s hard to “design” some sort of strategy without knowing what everyone’s asking price is. This week’s news would suggest to me that Beltre, someone I wasn’t that bothered about, might be cheap.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said. I am gonna go ahead and assume that if we do sign Holliday, we're definitely going with Freese for 3B as Mo has indicated.

And I also agree on Figgins. Would be very keen on picking him up for what the Mariners are giving him. Ah well.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 7, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

holliday

at 2x figgins salary and 50% more years?
makes beltre + look better at 10 aav

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 7, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW here's Beltre's career line:

.325 OBP, .453 SLG (.779 OPS), .335 wOBA (he’s been pretty inconsistent year to year, mind you – some great years, some sucky ones). UZR has him a +14 defender, which is, well, mind-blowingly awesome, frankly, over 8 years.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 7, 2009 12:27 PM EST reply actions  

Beltre's projections

CHONE: .270/.320/.446/.766 wOBA: .333
Bill James: .269/.321/.439/.760 wOBA: .329

I’m assuming that he’s going to be at least a +10 defender next season, so he’s worth about 1 win with the glove. His best season in Seattle was in 2007 when he put up a .276/.319/.482/.801 line. He’s posted an OBP over .330 three times in his career, but not once in the past 5 seasons, so he’s not a good bet to put up better than .330 with the Cardinals, although he’s probably a good bet to post at least a .470 slugging and possibly put up .500 by moving to a weaker league. I wouldn’t bet on it though.

Seems like maybe he’s not worth a long term deal the more that I look at it. When you compare them, isn’t Joe Crede pretty much the same player? Good power, no on base skills, great glove. Crede has injury issues, and Beltre has pretty much been a banner of health for most of his career prior to last year. That’s really the only difference, and you could get Crede for around $2M and change vs. the $10M it seems to be costing to nab Beltre. I think there’s a very good chance that Freese could be worth 2 WAR next year as he’s supposed to have a fantastic glove and better on-base skills than Beltre.

I was high on Beltre for a while, and now I think I’m changing my mind. He just doesn’t seem worth the $10M when we can get a comparable player from the farm or for less than $3M bucks.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 7, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting note on Crede, I didn't realize how coparable they are

Although the scant projections available seem to like Beltre a little better offensively. Similar age too unless I misread something. I do think Beltre has more potential to go along with the higher price tag, but some of that is admittedly the ghost of 2004 talking.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 7, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

He's probably a little better offensively

and he has a much higher offensive ceiling, but I’m not sure that he’s worth $7M more next year WITH a commitment of 3+ years when we can have Creded for <$3M and Freese for essentially free.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 7, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I’m still warmer on Beltre that I had been, but those are really good points. I think it’s most likely we’ll end up giving Freese a chance, at least to start the year.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 7, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

i still think beltre could stay in seattle

on basically the same deal as figgins. depends on where they sit with lackey and bay.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 7, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

back and forth on beltre

as noted above
can’t do this in vacuo

holliday or no holliday makes a big differnece

like the possibility of dunn in the line up for 2 m more than beltre
beltre looks better if we sign holliday, but beltre plus dunn probably gives more than holliday (and cost a few more bucks)

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 7, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW I think Holliday + Freese is probably a fair bit better than Beltre + Dunn

but then I’m not very high on Dunn. He’s a DH.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:37 AM EST up reply actions  

why would they want two third basemen?

Beltre’s never played anywhere else and Figgins is apparently not very good at 2B.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:36 AM EST up reply actions  

i don't know why he's not a good 2B

he was a 2b before this transformation to 3B, and the M’s could apparently use someone who can field at 2B.

we’ll see how much beltre likes it out there, if it’s enough to give a deal – not exactly the best park for him, but word is he really enjoys it there

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 6:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd have thought he could handle 2B

but UZR really doesn’t like him there.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:54 AM EST up reply actions  

well, that one really surprises me

he has improved in every aspect of the game as a regular at one position, though, rather than when he was bouncing around the field as a semi-regular. other than that i’m at a loss.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 7:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I like Crede and I think he'll be a bargain for someone

but I just don’t think he’s as good as Beltre. His OBP hovers around .300, instead of .320, his wOBA last year was .305 (not .335) and his projection next year has him bouncing back to the .310-.315 range. That’s quite a lot worse than Beltre’s in the .330 range, and Beltre’s been playing in a worse hitters’ park the last few years (Crede’s played all but one of the last five years for the White Sox in whatever the hell they call that stadium now, anyways, it’s a good one for power-hitters of a right-handed flavour, whilst Safeco is a RHB graveyard).

He’s also averaged about 300 PA the last three years (he was healthier before that) and is coming off a THIRD back surgery in as many years. Whilst a bounceback to his earlier career production is possible, at his age and with his injury history, AND moving to a tougher hitters’ park, I’d say a complete fall-off is just as likely, and we really shouldn’t be too bullish about him exceeding his projections.

Also, he’s not (according to UZR) quite as good with the glove – about 4 runs/yr difference (they both put up amazing 2009 stats) over a very large sample size.

I think Crede, given the fact his bat has pretty much retired and he’s just a glove with 15HR/yr who is unlikely to be healthy all year, is probably no major improvement on Freese. Maybe a 1-2 win player. I still think Beltre, better health, better bat, slightly better glove, is more like a 3-4 win player. Crede’s three years (and, coincidentally, three back surgeries) removed from putting up more than 2 WAR. Beltre’s exceeded that every year of his career so far, and has broken 4 WAR twice in the last four years.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I just don't think that Beltre

is worth $9.5M more than Freese is I guess. I’d rather sign Branyan or Hinske to platoon there and save the cash.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm coming over to the belief that Branyan and Hinske can't play 3B anymore

if there was an obvious LH 3B on the cheap I’d be all over it. Branyan’s got two dodgy knees, and HInske hasn’t played 3B for a couple of years I don’t think. For the occasional start, maybe, but I think they’re not everyday guys at the hot corner.

FWIW, I sort of agree with you about Beltre. He’s far from my favourite option, but the Figgins deal (and apparent fact he might only cost 3/30 or even less) means he’s kinda on my radar.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

If we can get him

for 2Y$16-$18M with a third year option then I think I could live with that.

I’m not sure I like 3Y$30M though.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

agree

pass on beltre for 3 years or 10mm

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 13, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Cards nearing deal for Penny

RT @Erik_Manning I like this! RT @extrabaggs: Brad Penny nearing a deal with the Cardinals; Giants don’t expect to compete.

....my quick smells like french toast...

by mstreeter06 on Dec 7, 2009 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

Brad Penny???

MLBTR links to a tweet saying we’re on the verge of signing him. I thought he wanted stupid money. I hope it’s not multi-year (although I could live with one and an option).

by wyld stallyns on Dec 7, 2009 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

If they get him on a 1Y deal, that would be a huge coup for the organization

I thought he wanted a multi-year contract.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 7, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Update

Strauss says money is done, physical pending.

by wyld stallyns on Dec 7, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

not a valid source but...

people on mlbtraderumors.com keep throwing around a one year deal that could be up to $9 mil after incentives

by theWizard on Dec 7, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Buster Olney is a little more reliable

 ESPN’s Buster Olney tweets that a physical is likely for Wednesday, and Penny will get a one-year, $7.5MM deal with another $1.5MM in incentives.

There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971

by wizardofozzie on Dec 7, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

7.5 base

A bit steep, I think. He got 5 last year, and wasn’t good until the stretch.

by wyld stallyns on Dec 7, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

er, it didn't do my strike...

… my point is that Penny, like Smoltz, did just fine when he got out of the AL East.

by kindred on Dec 7, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, it f's about with the auto-font things if you put them in the title bar

annoying in the extreme.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Penny scares me.

He’s pretty healthy, and his velocity was extremely high after his recovery. I guess he’s a 4.0 FIP pitcher who’s likely to pitch over 150 innings, meaning he’s a 3+ WAR player. This is probably a pretty damn good deal, but Penny has always made me nervous.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 7, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

his WAR since 2003...

… 3.0, 2.7, 3.2, 3.4, 4.3, 0.1, 2.5.

other than the year he’s been injured, he’s been a 2.5-4.0 WAR pitcher. we’re getting him on what looks to be a 1-year deal, worth at most ~ $9.5mn. in that time he’s averaged about 175 IP a year. it’s a pretty good deal, especially if there’s a cheap option attached.

by kindred on Dec 7, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he's got a good shot at 4 WAR, and I like this deal.

If there’s a team option for <$10M that would make it even sweeter. Penny just makes me nervous with his craziness. On the other hand, I wouldn’t mind seeing him knock a few batsmen down for looking at him.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 7, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Most of the Cards are calm

It’s good to see a crazy person jump in the mix as long as he doesn’t screw up chemistry, which it doesn’t seem like he will. He is going to be pretty fun to watch I think.

There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971

by wizardofozzie on Dec 7, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

he'll be among Southern boys

take him on a nice hunting trip without pulling a cheney, and he’ll be just dandy. LaRue can lend him his truck.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he's a perfect Duncan/Mason project

his GB rate fell quite badly with the BoSox last year. That’s the only reason he was down on his career stats (his HR/FB ratio was fine, and his K/BB ratio was more or less normal, and in fact his velocity was even a bit up on his lifetime best, 94mph avg heater). If he can get the ball down in the zone and get his 2-seamer working, with our tasty infield, he could be really effective. I like this deal.

Meanwhile, Pavano accepts arbitration (sigh). I think I marginally prefer Penny but I guess Carl was gonna likely be cheaper, and was better in 09.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:41 AM EST up reply actions  

pavano expected to get 6.5-7.5 in arb

is what i read, but who knows, teams and players so often work out pre-hearing deals, either compromising on the one-year figure or signing something longer term, although i seriously doubt the latter in this case.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 6:29 AM EST up reply actions  

If he gets similar guaranteed cash to Penny

I’d rather have Penny. More upside, I think.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:55 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm in accord

as some say.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 7:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I kind of like this deal too

then again I really liked the trade for K-Bot.

Anyway, it strikes me that 7.5 mil base is kind of high. But you’re thinking it’s kosher?

An option is a good idea, but short of that, I think he walks no matter what after next year. Either he gets hurt/stinks, in which case he goes, or he’s really good and will want a big contract and we’ll get a draft pick when he walks.

An club/mutual option for 2012 might be a good idea, particularly since Carpenter’s health is always a bomb waiting to drop and our upper level minor league arms are mostly uninspiring.

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 7, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Would he accept an option though?

it seems to me that the whole reason for accepting a 1 year deal is so he can reestablish his value and then try to cash in the next year.

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 7, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And if he does, he's likely a type B = 1 free pick

that’s worth a few million bucks to us, at least. It’s a good deal, IMO. Slightly risky, with a “baseline” that he pitches like he does in 2009 which was, at least, acceptable for a #3-4 starter.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I think if he repeats his 2009, he's our #3 starter,

but he’s got quite a tangible bit of upside as well.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 8, 2009 5:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I think if he repeats his 2009 there's a chance a healthy Lohse might out-perform him

but either way we seem to have a solid “engine room” in the middle of our rotation with those two guys. With five healthy starters, I’d say our rotation is now second only to the Braves in the NL. That seem fair?

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd like to think we have a better rotation than the Braves.

I know I’m biased but when you got ADAM and Carp as your top 2 guys…the Braves are good for 2nd place behind us. The Braves have a great young rotation though.

Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon

by KYCards on Dec 8, 2009 6:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Their 3-5 beats ours, though.

Jurrjens, Hanson, Hudson I guess.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 6:56 AM EST up reply actions  

i agree with both lohse

and braves statements, though if vasquez is dealt…

our staff could “easily” outperform theirs if all goes well…and there’s two sides to every scenario

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 6:34 AM EST up reply actions  

doesn't matter...

… apparently the Birds guaranteed him they wouldn’t offer arb. that’s per one of the Tweets on ESPN.com

by kindred on Dec 8, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Thought that was only in the case of type A

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 8, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

that makes much more sense

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

that is the only way it'd make sense, i guess...

… just passing on what they’re saying. he was neither this year, so it’d take a massive year for him to jump to type A.

by kindred on Dec 8, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

let's see... overnight rumors

Overnight links
Mets looking at Gil Meche
Angels getting shoppers for Matthews, Jr.?
Zach Duke, Mahoalalaolm available??
Rays rumors, Burrell for Bradley less likely
round-up of stuff incl. Uggla’s angst and tales of WMs past
M’s discuss crowning King Felix. also I learn that his agent is the same as So Taguchi’s
Joe Blanton rumors….

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 2:46 PM EST reply actions  

and lunchtime filing

not included: not-offers (not going after a player); everyone wants Bay, Holliday, Halladay; and the nonstop updates of Metsfail.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe dero works out a 2-3 yr. deal with us?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 7, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

me too

but i think he gets 2 with option and buyout for third – otherwise he’d have accepted arby for more money for one year. 2/12 is an affordable super-duper jack-of-all-trades, making our bench so much better.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 7, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

not saying i want him above all else

just that it wouldn’t be bad.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 7, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I take back my earlier Yankees hot tub dig

apparently his heart is still in St. Louis.*

but he’s got the agent, and the players union, and a new kid to feed, and he’s on the wrong end of 30. we’ll see.

*suck it, cubbies.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

y2s...

if you had a twitter feed, i would follow it.

for whatever that’s worth.

by RedbirdAvenger on Dec 8, 2009 3:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't get any work done

and that many characters cramp my style.

It’s worth a pretty penny, though.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Pavano accepts arb.

Somewhere far away, a felon in monk’s clothes just got that much more felonious.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 7, 2009 8:12 PM EST reply actions  

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:46 AM EST up reply actions  

hooray for draft pix!

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 7, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

no surprise there, I guess

it sounds like he’s attracting a lot of attention

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 7, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Two memes one post

And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"

by jd is legend on Dec 8, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

This next draft is going to be big for the Birds

If they keep the trend of going for high ceiling guys then the lower levels will be looking pretty sharp since it looks like we’ll be getting picks for DeRo AND Pinata, at least.

by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 7, 2009 11:02 PM EST reply actions  

Brewers close to picking up Wolf

allegedly.

….

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 11:12 PM EST reply actions  

The Brad Penny deal

Here’s a quick look to projections for his 2010 performance:

Bill James : 4.05 FIP, 182 IP, 29 GS
CHONE : 4.41 FIP*, 158 IP, 27 GS
(Rally doesn’t give FIP so I calculated it with projected K, BB, HR, HBP numbers.)

The average line of two systems is:
4.23 FIP, 170 IP, 28 GS

I calculated his win values as Dave Cameron explained at Fangraphs.
Brad Penny projects to be a 2.1 WAR pitcher, or a perfect league average pitcher.

A 7.5M/1yr + incentives contract seems fair to me.

Cardinals fan from Korea

by FreeRedbird on Dec 7, 2009 11:18 PM EST reply actions  

7.5 million for a league average pitcher?

Shoot me. We can’t bring Garcia, Boggs, Hawksworth, etc. into the rotation to be pretty close to that for 1/10th the price?

Damnit.

by stlfan on Dec 8, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Those guys

are replacement level pitchers, not league average.

Garcia has a decent chance to be a league average pitcher, though.

Cardinals fan from Korea

by FreeRedbird on Dec 8, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions  

JAIME GARCIA

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

That seems really low to me

I might be wrong, but I could’ve sworn that sort of FIP over ~170 innings would be closer to 3 wins.

It’s also worth noting that if he only throws 170 and picks up 2.1 WAR, we’ll also get the benefit (or deficit) of whoever throws the other 30-40 odd innings he misses. If it’s Boggs, and he pitches as well as he did last year, that’ll add on another bit of value.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:49 AM EST up reply actions  

NL average RA in 2009 was 4.53

4.23 FIP is around 4.60 in the RA scale.
It is actually a little bit worse than NL average, but a league average starter is not a .500 pitcher. According to Tom Tango(you can look here), a league average starter in a starter role is .490 So, he is right around average.

This is my calculation. Please tell me if I’m wrong:

FIP = 4.23
RA = 4.60
lgRA = 4.53
Innings = 170
GS = 28
IP/G = 170/28 = 6.07
Runs per Win = [((18-6.07) * 4.53 + 6.07 * 4.60) / 18 + 2] * 1.5 = 9.83
RAA/9 = RA – lgRA = -0.07
WAA/9 = -0.07/9.83 = -0.007
Expected Winning % per 9 inning = 0.493
Replacement Level Starter Winning % per 9 inning = 0.380
WAR = (0.493-0.380) * 170 / 9 = 2.1

So again, he is expected to be right around league average.

If you count his batting, his WAR only gets worse. In 2005-2007, his last 3 healthy seasons, he was a -1.2 WAR hitter cumulatively. Let’s suppose he is a -0.4 WAR hitter for a full season, and now we get a 1.7 WAR player. However, I highly doubt teams think about hitting ability seriously when they sign a pitcher.

Cardinals fan from Korea

by FreeRedbird on Dec 8, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

However, I highly doubt teams think about hitting ability seriously when they sign a pitcher.

I really think they should. However, you need to factor it in vs the average pitcher (I think) than the average position player. I worked out while back that Adam Wainwright, because he’s an above-average hitting pitcher, is actually worth on the order of an extra 0.3, 0.4 WAR/yr or so (I think, off the top of my head) compared to an average NL pitcher, which is pretty useful really. From what I can tell, Penny’s about an average hitter (for a pitcher) so it’s probably pretty moot and doesn’t add or subtract much to/from his value.

I think it only matters in extreme examples – Micah Owings might only be a true-talent 1 WAR pitcher, but if you add in 60-odd PAs of his ridiculous .372 wOBA instead of the average pitcher wOBA (which I think is about .160-odd) I think he’s actually worth a bit more than 1 extra win over an “average hitting pitcher”, making him more like a league-average player, and a pretty good 5th starter.

I’m not sure about your calculations otherwise, I’d have to spend some time looking into it, but it seems like you’ve done it pretty painstakingly so I’ll defer to your conclusion.

Also, 내 호버 크라프트 뱀장어 가득

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Were you driving the hovercraft at the time?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 8, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

holy shit, old meme

that’s a good one.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Google translator sucks

That Korean sentence doesn’t have verbs. It’s actually not a sentence, it’s a phrase.

Cardinals fan from Korea

by FreeRedbird on Dec 8, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

curly fries

Rafael Betancourt: ACCEPT
Brandon Lyon: probably NOT
Rafael Soriano: ACCEPT
Carl Pavano: ACCEPT

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 7, 2009 11:53 PM EST reply actions  

anybody interested

in helping the braves out with their reliever glut? i know there was interest here before, but the type A status was a sticking point. well, it just disappeared. if soriano gets 7-8 mil in arb, that’s alot, but it would only be for a year and might only cost a token prospect, depending…

he can’t be traded until june, i believe, without his permission, so there could be an extortion cost, i suppose, which i wouldn’t go for if it was unreasonable, but if the market improves by next year we might get a draft pick for him…a lot of moving parts.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I'd give up something for Soriano

probably not a lot, but if they really want to shed that $7m or whatever, I’d maybe throw PJ Walters their way. Good chance he’s at least a type B next year if he stays healthy.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe a trade for Kelly Johnson and Rafael Soriano?

Not sure what we’d give up, but that would pretty much finish major needs of the offseason.

Soriano at closer, Johnson platoon LFer (not the most efficient use of his skillset, but it would work).

Just a thought.

I vote the anti-Tony ticket:
Aggressiveness on the basepaths,
Patience at the plate.

by aNdrOss on Dec 8, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

not a bad idea

I don’t know if our needs meet theirs, though. They need some pop somewhere, particularly the OF. We could probably do something around Allen Craig, but I guess it depends exactly how desperate they are to shed that payroll – both players (Soriano & Johnson) are productive and would be desirable to a number of teams, so I suspect they’d have the luxury of being slightly picky about what they ask for in return.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he'd actually be cheaper

to get now than in June, because Atlanta can’t just trade him anywhere — he has to want to go there. I would guess he’s welcome a trade to St. Louis because he’d get the chance to win the closer job.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I would actually want Kawakami

They don’t seem to have room for him. If he gets used to the MLB workload, he could be very good for 7 mill a year.

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 8, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

what the hey,
Beltre and another pitcher if possible

Churn the roster as the football people say

by jealousblues on Dec 8, 2009 12:24 AM EST reply actions  

Random question

But does Brandon Woods become the heir apparent to 3rd base in Anaheim now that figgins is gone. And does his bat play well enough for 3rd. The reason I’m asking is because I’ve had a mancrush on Woods for a while now and love to see the Cards pry him off the Angels somehow.

by mob16151 on Dec 8, 2009 2:11 AM EST reply actions  

Yes, he becomes their 3B now.

No, his bat probably doesn’t play that well there, but let’s wait and see. His glove may make up for it.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:53 AM EST up reply actions  

roundup

all the curly fries

Pudge signs with Nats, 2y/6 reportedly. ("almost certain that Wil Nieves will be non-tendered now. ")

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 2:29 AM EST reply actions  

Nieves ain't that bad for a team with zero chance of competing, at least he's dirt cheap for a backup

fuck knows why the Nats keep making “win now”-type moves when their team sucks. Jesus Flores is a nice young catcher anyhow, isn’t he back next year? What’s the point of spending $6m on a broken-down veteran for a couple of years when you’ve already got a catcher?

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:56 AM EST up reply actions  

i don't think pudge is even noted

for working with pitching staffs – in fact it might be the opposite. but that’s the only reason i could see for a team like the nats with some young pitchers bringing in a pudge-type.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 6:41 AM EST up reply actions  

interesting article

on fangraphs comparing derosa and kelly johnson. i know that’s a name we heard alot last off-season, but i don’t really see how he fits now. anyone have any thoughts on johnson, and a possible role with the birds for him? sounds like he could be available for nothing.

i think it was in the scutaro-signing article that the names of some, not all, free-agent SS’s were mentioned (to illustrate the dearth of quality) and it was odd to see k-bot included. i don’t know why, but it was so unexpected, almost a shock, like i’d thought he’d retired long ago or something. any thoughts on his future (team)?

oh, OT, but an excellent article fourstick in particular might be interested in, concerning edgar martinez and the hof. i didn’t realize that sean smith has him as a plus defender at third – he is often portrayed much differently, as if he floundered around out there, but that’s in 4 full seasons (the guy only played the equivalent of 13 seasons).

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 8:16 AM EST reply actions  

I would rather have Johnson than DeRosa

I just dunno if he’ll be given away for free, however. I’m also not sure how good a fit he is now that 2B is adequately (presumably) covered by Skip and Lugo/Greene.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Johnson, in my mind, is basically Skip Schumaker.

Outfielder without the bat to play a corner, converted to the IF. Lefty, mediocre defense. Johnson is probably better or as good Schumaker on defense and offense, and his bat could technically be our full time LF option. He could take the role you’ve been imagining for Eric Hinske, platoon in LF and spot starter at 3B, however he doesn’t have a platoon split, so in that way he’s like a young Julio Death Stare. Superfluous. Could be too expensive. Hinske is still available. On the other hand, above average, decent power, patient hitter who is probably a very good corner OF defender.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 8, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup, read the article on Martinez

I still think that there’s a reason why he was moved off of third base to make way for Mike Blowers and Russ Davis though. Whether it was his health issues in ‘93 and ’94 or the fact that he horribly regressed as a defensive player over those two seasons I don’t know.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

kj = lf

back to the future

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 8, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't get that

kelly johnson is a left-fielder, got that.

what is back to the future?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 2:51 AM EST up reply actions  

kj

lf to 2nd to lf

sounds like skippy talk
but he might be a good platoon with craig also

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 9, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

insidey stuff on Giant's bid for Penny
The Giants made several offers to Brad Penny in November, including a year and an option. Penny’s agent, Greg Genske, counteroffered with a three-year proposal with a high AAV. The Giants tried a sweetened year and an option. Genske counteroffered with a pie-in-the-sky one-year offer, all cash. The Giants’ last attempt was a one-year offer with a bigger base and lots of incentives. Genske came back at two years for money that the Giants deemed unrealistic.

The Cards’ deal with Penny isn’t finalized yet. But it’s believed that they didn’t outbid the Giants by much.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2009/12/07/sabeans-revelations-pablo-sandoval-will-hit-cleanup-giants-out-on-penny-garko-on-the-bubble-etc/

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 9:51 AM EST reply actions  

again

that’s reassuring since the giants got a good look at him, although sabean hasn’t a stellar rep for valuation (but he does have a good rep for evaluation)

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Buster says the hottest item on the stove is Curtis Granderson

the latest morph of the deal would give the Yanks both him and Jackson

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 11:36 AM EST reply actions  

I'd a sent them Wallace for Grandy

if we still had that big walrus (sniff….)

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

LF platoon with craig?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

I could live with him playing everyday but realistically that .600-some OPS vs LHP probably means that sitting him for Craig vs lefties would be good. But he’s got a fine glove and is a true impact bat vs righties. I’d actually hit him cleanup behind Albert, he’s got a lot more power than your average leadoff/2-hole hitter.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

twits via BLS
It’s quite a scene. Reporters of every age are tweeting while walking in hallways, while they’re standing on the escalator and while they’re on their way into the john.

They’re tweeting while standing in line for coffee, while talking with other reporters and even while flagging down another GM for a morsel of information that will be transcribed into 140 characters and sent along to baseball fans starving for the next tidbit that will swim down their computer screen or smartphone.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 12:02 PM EST reply actions  

3 team blockbuster is complete

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/12/granderson-to-yanks-edwin-jackson-to-dbacks.html

I can’t believe Arizona would do this. Scherzer has SO much upside, and they receive an overrated starter and a constantly injured minor league starter. Maybe they know something I don’t, but it seems awful to me.

Time to rub it in to my Dbacks fan of a brother :D

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 8, 2009 3:06 PM EST reply actions  

5-1 says is comeback is

_ ___”, if you know what I mean…

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow

Tigers made out like f’ing bandits. Scherzer AND Austin Jackson??? Wow.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Least we know the Yanks won't want Holliday now.

Detroit gave away 1 mediocre starter on a career year and a platoon guy for great prospects.

 /impressed clap

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 8, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

scherzer

is more than a prospect. yeah, detroit made out on the cheap. wtf – is scherzer injured, because i don’t recall hearing anything like that?

wasn’t jackson a piece to the puzzle for halladay? so no holliday or halladay?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

they don't have anything for halladay now

that chubby catcher/1B whose name i forget wont get it done. I guess they wait until he’s a FA.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

jesus montero.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

isn't montero like one of the top 5 prospects in all of baseball?

I think he is an untouchable.

Also, I’m not sold on Austin Jackson – 4hrs in over 500ab’s in AAA? Sounds like a 4th outfielder who isn’t better than Melky frickin Cabrera.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 9, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Jackson's two years younger

so I think he’s ahead of the game slightly. He also had a better 09 with the bat in AAA FWIW. But yeah, I think he’s over-hyped (Jackson, not Jay) – most everything sensible I’ve read about him kinda reckons he’s gonna be Endy Chavez/Carlos Gomez/Franklin Gutierrez w/ less pop, that sorta thing.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure he'll make top 5 because there's serious doubt as to whether he can stick at catcher

guy is like 250 lbs or something ridiculous. His bat is definitely top-10 material, however, but I dunno if he’s streets ahead of Wallace, necessarily. My fairly uneducated take on it, anyhoo.

In any case, he’s not going to be enough for Halladay. I guess you could throw in Phil Hughes and it starts to become more attractive, but at that price you wonder if they won’t just wait until next year and sign him to a monster FA deal instead.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

problem being

at least for the yanks, that wherever halladay goes will be hand-picked and he’s gonna be extended in advance – i’d think he’d make that a condition. halladay is not the type to hop around every year.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, he isn't a prospect

But he has great stuff. Being overshadowed by pitchers like Webb and Haren kind of covered his great upside.

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 8, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

are you replying to me

or repeating me, taskmaster?

btw, i’ve been considering this tactic for some time myself. i will simply rephrase stuff and wait for the counter-argument to come from the original poster. just with some people, mind you (it would be tough to rephrase BatFlip’s TWSS – it’d be like when kids do that parroting thing just to annoy)

in your case i’m kidding, just confused thinking you may have misunderstood me.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 3:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Ahhh Im retarded

Thought I saw a question mark there. My bad

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 9, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand why this would be the case

Granderson is going to play CF for them, so why would they not need a LF yet? By trading Jackson, they dealt the only guy who could possibly play LF that is still in the organization and has potential, and I don’t think they’re going to run Melky out in LF next year.

I could still see them interested in Holliday.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I assumed that they would slide Cabrera into RF.

Then either re sign Damon to play LF, or this would be pretty sweet trade for Bradley to play LF. That would be a pretty good defensive outfield. Not sure how much pop they’d have though.

by mob16151 on Dec 8, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

i think damon stays

they both want it, but damon wants three years (well, four, but…) and the yanks want one and then crawford, so maybe they settle on two and damon does some dh’ing that second year.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 2:58 AM EST up reply actions  

what about swisher?

I think he’s their every-day RF now that Tex is at 1B and (presumably) they use DH to rotate round some of their older guys.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 5:38 AM EST up reply actions  

i think swish is there

and they might as well keep melky, too.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 6:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Would the Yanks Trade Swish?

mlbtraderumors.com suggests that Swish might be available due to the 16 mil owed to him in the next 2 years and whether or not the Yanks resign Damon/Nady. If he was available on the cheap because of a salary dump, how about plan B consisting of Penny (already done), Smoltz, Derosa, and Swish?

by sleeple55 on Dec 9, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know if we have anything to trade them for Swisher.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 9, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd like Swisher

but he won’t be a salary dump. He’s underpaid already and it’s the f’ing Yankees. IF they trade him, it’s because they’ve signed Holliday and they want genuine prospects in return. Really, I can’t see why they’d want to shift him.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

that's hilarious

yanks and salary dump in same sentence. some writer is obviously a pawn of the yank pr dept. or the victim of the smoltzie/nationals perpetrator.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Again

why would they not be at all interested in Matt Holliday because of the Granderson trade?

Even with Granderson, they don’t have anyone to play LF currently, and Melky doesn’t really have the bat to play corner outfield, and he won’t be moving to RF unless they move Nick Swisher in some type of deal — I would guess they’d move Melky before they’d move Swisher.

They currently don’t have anyone to play LF, so I don’t understand why they wouldn’t be interested in Holliday up until the point that they address that position. The Granderson trade does nothing to change their lack of a left-fielder.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 9, 2009 8:38 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 9, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

when everyone goes one way, bet the other

Scherzer also has SO much injury potential. And though Ian Kennedy was injured recently, I think most think he’s much less of an injury risk than Scherzer. It’s interesting that you think Scherzer has so much more upside than Jackson since they are similar ages, Jackson was also once a highly rated prospect and had a better/as good year as Scherzer last year.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 9, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Scherzer was better than Jackson last year

by a fair distance. Jackson walked a few less, but gave up moar dingerz, and wasn’t close to Scherzer on K’s. I suppose he threw more innings but the quality of Mad Max’s work was far superior.

They may end up being similar quality pitchers, I guess, for reasons you and others have stated.

Anyhow, 5 cheap years (well, 3 cheap and 2 more expensive) of Scherzer >>>>> 2 not-so-cheap years of Jackson. I guess it depends how you value Kennedy but I haven’t seen too many respectable sources project him as more than a back-of-the-rotation guy. His AAA stats are rather good, though, so I suppose the D’Backs scouting could really be keen on him due to “something” they’ve seen.

I genuinely think you are one of the best and most interesting posters here, but I wonder if you sometimes don’t just take a certain position because you enjoy being a contrarian?

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

He's not the first one

To point out that Scherzer is viewed as an injury risk. I think there’s a real chance this is why AZ was willing to deal him. I can’t find any support for it, but I recall clearly that there was a school of thought that he will likely have to end up in the pen eventually. So I think that is a legit counterpoint to be made.

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 9, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Part of it is that he only has two + pitches (FB & SL)

although it was good enough for Randy Johnson.

I think it’s possible he ends up in the pen, and possible he gets injured, but realistically we’re not very close to understanding why/how pitchers get hurt (or, at least, being able to predict it well) – I know he has a track record of injury, though.

Still, even if he doesn’t get ANY better, the point still stands:
1) He’s better than Jackson already, and just as likely (if not more so, given only one full year in the bigs) to improve.
2) He’s got FIVE years, instead of TWO expensive ones, under team control.
3) Even if he’s injured for 3 of those 5 years (a big stretch), chances are he’ll still provide more value than 2 years of Jackson.

Given all that, seems to me that they must value Kennedy quite a bit higher than Schlereth, as there’s a big gap (however they see Scherzer’s likelihood of injury or need to shift to the pen) in the value between Jackson and Scherzer, with contract status taken into account.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 6:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I do like being a contrarian...

Actually, I really don’t know how the trade will be seen 5 years from now but (unlike quite a few around the interwebs) I don’t assume successful people are stupid when they do something I wouldn’t do, I assume they have information I don’t have.

Let’s take Josh Byrnes – by all accounts he is a smart, successful person who has convinced other smart successful people to hire him to run their multi-hundred million dollar enterprise. He has worked for several smart baseball people like Theo Epstein and Mark Shapiro: indeed, Epstein once said of Byrnes, “He’s got as much a feel for evaluating and statistical analysis as anyone in baseball.”

So, given this, I don’t assume he didn’t understand the statistical or financial basis underlying the trade. In fact, I assume he knows them much, much better than me. So then, given that there doesn’t appear to be any financial reason to make the trade, why does he think the players he got are more valuable than the players he gave up? Two things stand out as likely to me –
1. AZ thinks Scherzer is a significant injury risk (and he has had some shoulder issues and his violent delivery has made others think he’ll have more)
2. AZ thinks Ian Kennedy is better than others do, and given his awesome (and they are awesome) minor league numbers, perhaps they have an argument.

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 9, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

all fair points

however, I still don’t accept the “he’s a baseball GM so he must know what he’s doing” rationale. I guess it’s possible that he knows payroll will be contracted in the coming years, and thus getting another cheap arm in the rotation (Kennedy) is worth a lot to them; however, they’re still only getting 2 years of Jackson, so I can’t see how that works, long-term. If the trade brought them 5/6 years of Kennedy and, I dunno, 4/5 years of Phil Hughes, it makes more sense viewed in this light.

I refuse to believe Byrnes knows what he’s doing until he demonstrates that he does.

It looks like he missed the boat badly with the Eric Byrnes extension (though there’s mitigating circumstances there; he’s been injured and he WAS coming off two good years), he’s made some questionable trades, and (even though he ended up getting injured and being ineffective in 2010) I’d question the preference for Garland over Big Unit this last off-season. The jury’s still out for me.

I suppose we’ll judge this trade largely based on what Scherzer and Kennedy provide for the next 5 years.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 6:19 AM EST up reply actions  

latest tweet from ed price:

“Red Sox have told people if they don’t get Jason Bay they will not spend on Matt Holliday. And word is Mariners pushing on Bay.”

if bosox aren’t in the game, it’s cardinals/mets. and that might just mean cardinals.

by RedbirdAvenger on Dec 8, 2009 3:50 PM EST reply actions  

i just can't see mets

they need a rotation (they need alot, i know, but pitching above all else), and from matty’s perspective, even if he likes new york, does he want to hit at citi? comes down to the money, i suppose.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno

they have no corner outfielders either. They simply have a LOT of needs, lol. Outside of CF, SS, 3B, CL and #1SP, they have a huge hole or have nearly replacement level players at virtually every other position. Unfortunately, they are paying some of those replacement players a LOT of cash — “I’m looking at you Ollie!”

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Desperation makes a team do crazy things

 /looks at last years offseason

I learned to never underestimate bad GM’s, so anything can happen :)

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 8, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Randy Wolf

3y/31m offer from Crew. probably will take it.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 4:42 PM EST reply actions  

That could be potentially devastating to them if he is bad

but he wasn’t bad this year.

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 8, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to mention his injury history, career year, etc.

They’d be better off signing Jo-el.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 8, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Talk about a severe overreaction to bad pitching

Signing a league average pitcher with a sordid injury history to a 3Y$31M contract. At least Lohse put up a shitload of innings until last year.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep, I'm definitely happy with that

glad they didn’t get a high risk, high reward guy. Just adding a 2-win sorta guy with (what I imagine is) all their remaining FA money probably isn’t going to bridge the gap, barring some major luck.

For me, Penny ~ Wolf, and we gave him two less years AND less AAV.

Factor in the horrible Hardy trade and it’s shaping up to be a bad off-season for them. I really think they should’ve been looking to move Hardy + Fielder for a top young pitcher (Buchholz would’ve fit the bill, I’d have thought, although who knows if they were keen on Fielder), started Escobar and Gamel at SS and 1B, and spent the rest of the money on adding another arm. Carlos Gomez and Randy Wolf probably won’t cut it IMO.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 5:42 AM EST up reply actions  

but

would anyone have gone more than 6/1.5 on penny—-besides us of course?

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 13, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I have no idea what 6/1.5 means

so I don’t know.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 14, 2009 4:46 AM EST up reply actions  

6/1,5 ?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 14, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Rafael Soriano gives trade clearance

http://twitter.com/mlbbowman/status/6476207823

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 5:13 PM EST reply actions  

i'd think we were one of the teams, no?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

last time mlbtr checked

O’s, Stros, Sauks. No Yanks.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

stros is a wierd choice. He from texas?

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 8, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

O's are a strange choice

and I know he is not from Baltimore

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 8, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe he's really close to Brian Roberts or something?

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 8, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

i hear

there’s only seven degrees of separation

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

At least the O's figure to have a winning team at some point in the next couple of years

even though they’ve probably no chance of competing. The Stros are gonna suck big time from now until they finally can Wade (and probably a couple of years beyond that, too).

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 5:43 AM EST up reply actions  

weird

haha.

maybe the stros inquired, but that doesn’t mean anything is reciprocal – doesn’t houston need a closer, though, and soriano wants to close?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Houston need to rebuild

they don’t need to spend $8m or whatever on one year of Raffy Soriano.

Although, I suppose with the state of their farm, they might as well try to compete for one last year (not giving up any prospects/picks in the process) as it’s hard to see how they can do much to bring in talent that’s going to improve the team much, even in the medium term. Still, I wonder if they actually TRADE Berkman and a couple of others (maybe Pence & Oswalt?) this year, they can actually replenish the system a bit.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 5:51 AM EST up reply actions  

rather than trading/rebuilding

they generally seem to always believe they are one magical piece away, which is fine by me.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 6:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I was slightly mislead!

I thought he said Soriano had cleared a trade to those teams. Actually, seems those might be teams rumoured to be in the hunt. Either way, Stros should probably just blow it all up this year, take their 50-something win season, and get into full rebuild mode. I don’t really see that an expensive closer is going to be much help to them this year.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

gameboard

[fake blockquote]
4:53pm: Joel Sherman of the New York Post says the Rangers are no longer interested.

4:12pm: The Cubs are close on trade with a “surprise AL team” for Milton Bradley, tweets Gordon Wittenmyer of the Chicago Sun-Times. He says the deal could happen tonight. We know the Royals aren’t in on Bradley, and the Rangers or Rays wouldn’t be a surprise. So let’s hear your guesses.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/12/cubs-close-on-milton-bradley-trade.html

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 6:00 PM EST reply actions  

seattle

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Jack Z strikes again!

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 8, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

not in this post

three months from now y’all will regret not putting all the Hot Stove in the Hot Stove thread.

[is in the midst of regretting July]

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

/pre-emptive meme strike

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

i had no idea what you were saying

now i get it.

anyway, according to mlbtr it is indeed seattle. though my conclusion is correct, silva is mentioned and i assumed it would be the second-baseman, which i based that on.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

haha

now it’s back to square one, according to the same site

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 8, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Silva

Oh please please please trade Bradley for Carlos Silva, Jim Hendry. That would be beautiful.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 5:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Cleveland.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 8, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Well Wedge isn't there anymore...

but I don’t think Shapiro liked him either.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Dec 8, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Sharp hates him

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Who's Sharp?

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Dec 8, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I am

:P

And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"

by jd is legend on Dec 8, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

is that why you never get a second date?

i wrote out a “pricking” joke here but realized it was over the line, so i deleted it. you’re welcome

and Mark Shapiro. of course you’d have to be up here to know people call him that cgirly. but i thought someone over at LGT would have told you that

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

They call him Shap.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Dec 8, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

that's weird

are any of them from around here? i haven’t spent much time there so i don’t know anything about them

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes. Lots of them.

Why would people call him Sharp? His name’s Shapiro. The r is after the p.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Dec 8, 2009 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

because Sharp is a better nickname

and when he first got there, someone said something about how sharp minded & shrewd he was as a assistant GM & it stuck.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I've never heard that.

They just call him Shap. Sharp is a meh nickname. Too obvious.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Dec 8, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

i never said it wasn't on the nose

i’m curious, do they like ohio?, i’m sure they do, especially if they are from here. but i’m just curious.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know.

We don’t talk about Ohio much.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Dec 8, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

HA

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

It's gonna be the Jays

Bradley for Wells, puts the Cubs back another century.

And I’m actually completely serious.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 8, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody sane, including the Cubs, would want Wells

 /hoping to be proved wrong

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 8, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

i can attest

some of them do. in their presence i always encourage such thinking.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 3:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Ha ha ha Bradley for Wells

YES YES YES HENDRY FUCKING DO IT!!!! Maybe you can get Seattle involved in a three-way blockbuster and get Carlos Silva too. GO GO GO!

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 5:55 AM EST up reply actions  

seriously

if a cub fan has heard of a player on another team, that fan believes said player must be good. after all, the fan has heard of him – obviously, he’s good. so here’s to hoping that at heart hendry is just a big ole bleeding-blue cub fan (probably how he keeps his job).

hendry: i can get vernon wells.

ricketts: i’ve heard of him.

hendry: he’s good.

ricketts: i want to win.

hendry smiles knowingly. ricketts catches on, reciprocates. they high-five.

PROFIT.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 6:41 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Royals

It’s just crazy enough to be true!

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 8, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Per Rotoworld Sidebar

Ken Rosenthal reports Cardinals may still end up with John Smoltz. Well, there goes my hopes for Smoltz as closer :(

And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"

by jd is legend on Dec 8, 2009 8:29 PM EST reply actions  

also says Skippy is a 2ndbaseman for life

i hope that puts the stop to him ever being put in LF in the later innings

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Tony LaRussa

begs to differ with you…

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

i wonder if he'll ever start listening to MO?

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 8, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmmmmm

1. Carpenter
1a. Wainwright
3. Penny
4. Smoltz
5. Lohse

Fuck that would be a good staff. Especially if Smoltz and Penny pitch like they did the last two months of 2009. Damn.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 8, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

the 1 and 1a

notation is a beautiful thing when 1 is a cy young.

probably flip 4 and 5 though, in reality.

it’s a good-looking list.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 3:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Leach says Cards ISO lefty bench bat

http://yourenotagolfer.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/12/tuesday_winter_meetings_tidbit.html

La Russa mentioning Tejada only worries me because TLR can brainstorm something over the weekend and hire a new hitting coach that following Monday.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 8, 2009 10:16 PM EST reply actions  

i love that story

like it just popped into uncle tony’s head that very weekend. then he smacked himself upside the head and said, “why didn’t i ever think of that before!” it’s his story, so he should stick to it.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 3:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I think I'm one of the few people who wouldn't mind Tejada

FOR THE RIGHT PRICE. Of course, he’ll probably get more than that. Some dumb GM will probably give him 3/40 or something ridonkulous (is that…… BRIAN SABEAN’S MUSIC??!!!!!), but if he’s left over at the end of the winter and no-one needs a 3B anymore (the market obviously wasn’t that strong for Figgins, and there’s Beltre and Crede and one or two others out there) I could see him taking a 1 yr deal somewhere to try to rebuild his value, a la Lohse in 2008. I’d not mind him in that scenario. The horrible plummeting walkrate is a worry, but he’s still somewhere in the ballpark of a league-average bat who would be average (or maybe even a touch above) at 3B, and he’s super-durable. Prolly still a 2-3 WAR guy.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 6:03 AM EST up reply actions  

If we want a lefty bench bat

Hinske really is the best bet out there. Above-average hitter w/ a .360-ish OBP against RHP and some pop, average or slightly above in a corner OF slot, can play 3B in an emergency, and a good enough 1B to spot Albert some days off. Maybe $2-3m to land him for a year. I like it.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 6:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Kevin kouzmanoff!!!!

Ahaha just kidding :)

I would like the guy, but I guess it depends (like pretty mcuh everything else does) if we resign Holliday.

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 9, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

time to go to

church

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 9, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems that the Cardinals are really the only team interested in Holliday..

Cardinals – Clearly the team that is most interested.

Yankees – Just traded for Granderson and last I heard were looking to “cut” payroll

Redsox – far more interested in Bay – may also be preoccupied trying to land Roy Halladay

Mets – last I heard they were in hot pursuit of Juan Rivera and Josh Willingham, also they might have too many holes to be able to shoot a $20 million/year offer for Matt.

Angels – basically the same as the Red Sox, would rather have Bay, but would also like Halladay instead

Royals, Orioles, Pirates, Brewers, Nationals, Padres, Marlins, Rays, Twins, Blue Jays, Reds, A’s, Tigers, Astros, Rangers, D’Backs, Rockies, Indians, Phillies, Dodgers, Cubs, Giants, Mariners, and the Braves, White Sox have a combined 0% probability of signing Holliday.

I have a feeling this is just another classic example of Boras getting a team to bid against themselves. Ultimately, I think the Cardinals land Holliday, due to lack of interest from other clubs.

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Dec 9, 2009 3:28 AM EST reply actions  

I would love for that to happen

I just feel like a team is gonna make a big offer to him late because he’s so good offensively I Also for some odd reason I suspect its either going to be the giants or the braves. Don’t know why…….just a hunch..

by mob16151 on Dec 9, 2009 3:31 AM EST up reply actions  

those are not crazy destinations

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 3:36 AM EST up reply actions  

btw, isn't this the swan song of bobby cox?

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 3:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Giants would be crazy not to be involved, if they have the money. He’s a perfect fit for them. And the Yankees. And the RedSox. And the Braves. I’m pretty staggered there’s not more interest at the moment, I suspect if his price is driven down, though, in time there’ll be interest.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 9, 2009 6:09 AM EST up reply actions  

let's hope

sabean doesn’t offer a ridiculous contract just to get back at us for penny.

"Sorry about him, he's dealing with being an inker. " - Chasing Amy

by FutureMan on Dec 9, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

suits me

if a big-market NL rival with a strong farm system wants to cripple itself by overpaying for a free agent.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 6:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Giants and money

The Giants have $57 mm tied up in 6 players (thank you Barry Zito), have to pay Lincecum, Wilson, Sanchez in Arb and historically don’t break $90mm in total payroll. That’s $33 mm to sign Holliday, Lincecum, Wilson, Sanchez, and 15 league minimum players. I don’t see them having the payroll flexibility to get into the Matt sweepstakes.

by ubeddie on Dec 9, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Lincecum alone is going to eat up >$20m I think

so you’re maybe right. I think they have broken $100m a few times in recent years, though, they’ve just been rebuilding for a while?

I think they might just trade Sanchez when Bumgarner shows he’s ready.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 6:21 AM EST up reply actions  

no way he gets more > $20MM

arbitration isn’t free agency…as soon as it is, we won’t have arbitration anymore (because the owners will get rid of it in collective bargaining).

by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 10, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

....and then we'll have another lockout and strike.

Great. Awesome — another spring or fall (and maybe even summer) without baseball. I think you’re totally underestimating the absolute power of the MLBPA.

FWIW, if Ryan Howard can get a $10M award in arbitration, what makes you think that the back-to-back Cy Young winner won’t get much, much more? Especially when you consider the $$$ it takes to acquire a starting pitcher of his caliber on the FA market? He very well could get a $15-$20M award in arbitration.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 10, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions