Evaluating Evaluating Baseball's Managers
It says something about the current state of managerial analysis that Chris Jaffe's work on Evaluating Baseball's Managers began with a presentation about how "lucky" and "unlucky" certain things were. This is how he describes his discovery of the Birnbaum Database, one of the primary analytical tools in his book:
The idea for this book first popped in my head when I saw Phil Birnbaum give a presentation at the annual SABR convention in 2006. He created a database to determine how much teams under/overachieved in a given season. He termed the disparity luck. However, while luck is certainly one factor that explains why a team would do better or worse than one might expect, it's not the only reason. For example, looking at the results it was amazing how "lucky" teams managed by Earl Weaver always were, or how "unlucky" Don Baylor's squads were.
Jaffe found that one man's luck—relative performance of hitters and pitchers, expected wins and losses, and expected runs scored and allowed—correlated more closely to managerial career length than one would expect if sample sizes and true talent were at issue.
The final result of his end-run around the typical manager analysis stumbling blocks is this book, the first major work on the topic since the regrettably out-of-print Bill James Guide to Baseball Managers, which we looked at briefly in August. It's a big deal anywhere; it's an even bigger deal here in St. Louis, home of one of the most managerially influenced teams in baseball.
Jaffe's work builds on James's in both its statistical analysis managerial tendencies and its relative lack of focus on the subject; like James, Jaffe is primarily concerned with the manager as a "leader of men", not the guy in charge of maximizing grit/AB. Unlike James, Jaffe, writing about managers in particular instead of managing in general, has attempted to fuse the two to create a unified theory of managing. I'm not sure it's perfect, but as a first effort it's extremely important.
For readers more familiar with James's work than what usually comes out of McFarland, the style and manner of writing might be a little disappointing; even colorful careers like Charlie Comiskey are rendered more or less flatly in the excerpt. A representative paragraph from the La Russa section:
To examine the issue further, first one needs to tackle the issue of LaRussa's influence before assigning credit or blame. When the record is examined, the 1988-90 A's bullpen appears to have been a way-station between how relievers were used and how they have since been handled. Relief aces were already throwing fewer innings as managers like Cox reduced innings per appearance. For instance, whereas four closers threw over 100 innings in 1985 and five more did so in 1986, none tossed that many in 1987 - only three broke 90 innings. Still, the A's amplified this trend. Nothing breeds imitation like success and Oakland's glory run provided the most successful bullpen in baseball history.
But the book succeeds in spite of its intermittent dryness because the subject matter itself is so fascinating. It's liberating to see someone use a grounding in statistical work to draw conclusions we've thought about for some time. Things that were once intuitively ascribed to managers can be, one by one, drawn back into the conversation.
La Russa has long been thought of as a manager who gets "the most" out of his players; finally we know that "the most" has, by one of Jaffe's measures, been worth an additional 455 runs for individual pitchers and 240 runs for individual hitters. The long tradition of pulling surprise aces out of the recycling bin, from Dave Stewart to Chris Carpenter? Corroborated. The equally long tradition of top pitching prospects being left in the recycling bin, from Todd Van Poppel to Anthony Reyes? Duly noted.
Jaffe is a concise and thorough writer; in less than 3000 words he covers La Russa's impact on bullpen utilization, his relatively forward-thinking views on lineup construction—of all the managers in Jaffe's tendencies database, the man who comes up with a new noun for what he wants in the two hole every season was second best at putting good hitters where good hitters belong—and La Russa's infamous, relentless control over the us-vs.-them team narrative, with space left over to document the virtues and vices of his patchwork pitching staffs. Other managers are given similarly definitive treatments, from Whitey Herzog's extreme control over the composition of his high-speed, high-OBP teams to Red Schoendienst's liberal application of the green light for Lou Brock.
Evaluating Baseball's Managers is not a self-evidently fun read; it's not filled, at least from what I've read of it, with sparkling anecdotes or major bombshells. If such a distinction existed in baseball research as it does in, say, literary criticism, this would be nearer an academic work than a popular one. But it's the first satisfying answer I've yet seen to one of the most frustrating questions left in our understanding of baseball, and that's excitement enough.
(If that's not endorsement enough, we'll be running an excerpt of the Tony La Russa section at some point in the next few weeks. It will be worth your while.)
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I still think the most amazing thing about T-Bone's tenure
is seemingly always getting a career year out of a backup infielder, no matter how infuriating it may be to see Aaron Miles get ~400 PAs in a season.
I just realized
This will be Griffey’s 4th decade of baseball. Is anyone else left from the 80s? Randy Johnson?
sheffield
moyer? anyone 40 and over has a chance
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
smoltz, vizquel
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
well i was born in 86 so yea
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
+15
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 4, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
randy johnson?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Why I rule.
I am spending my Friday night studying Super Mario 3 player guides so i can win the game without the use of the warp whistle Sunday afternoon when I’m super hungover in my basement.
Mario 3 is the perfect platformer
I will consider banning anyone who disagrees.
That said, I just found my Game Boy Pocket, so a few days ago I devoted an evening to beating Mario Land.
agreed, it is the best since super mario world on snes
and the most similar to super mario 3 on nes…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
I am trying my hardest
to wait until after I’m done applying to graduate school to buy this game, because I just know I won’t be able to stop.
just have andi do the legwork
i was thinking you’re both in the same town, though i could be mistaken.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
If your last name starts with A-E, I'm your girl
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
well, dan's last name is obviously baby
so help the guy out.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Dec 9, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
so to eyeball these very rough numbers, tony la russa (and dave duncan) are worth about a win and a half of
pitcher value and just under a win of position player value per year? that’s at least the submission (445 runs over 28 or so seasons; 240 runs over 28 or so seasons). it’s very difficult to evaluate whether it’s proper to attribute all of that value to tony and dave, but that’s about the utmost that the author is claiming?
does he claim that other managers have a more significant role?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
is this over average, or some "replacement" level?
either way, 2.5 wins/year seems like quite a lot to me but it’d be even more impressive compared to a mean. i’d be interested to see some summary statistics, including standard deviations. i would imagine that the variance is pretty low. but then again, i never would’ve guessed 2.5 wins/year was feasible, and i’m a kinda-sorta TLR fan.
i’d also be interested to see if this is mostly stable over time, or if TLR has “good” and “bad” years. Joe Morgan says a good manager has to be “cosistent” [sic].
2.5 wins over average is huge
For a player, that would be worth something like 15 million. I doubt that Tony/Dunc are worth THAT much, or else they would be paid more than they are, but I wouldn’t be suprised if they were close.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 4, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
2.5 wins seems low to me
especially since fritz mr f pointed out guys like aaron f’in miles get 400AB’s per
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
but we're talking about a manger here who does not always have the best team on the field
on purpose
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i think more managers do that than you are thiking...
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
Pinella
puts Liability out there nearly every day.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Don't make me do math
or think… I’m not big on that.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
what the hell?
I totally forgot about fritzy wanting to change over to Mister Eff. I just thought we had some new DB around here.
I leave for a few days and this place goes all bonkers on me. Ugh.
See you people in ST ! (or until APu gets an extension)
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
my sources say APu signs an extension this week, possibly Tuesday
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Ya...I really want to reach through the screen
and slap him because I know I’m being fucked with. It’s not like those other times when it takes me week to figure it out.
* is an Asshat
his sources are Jim, Jack & Jose
i thought you all knew this?
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by gdm426 on Dec 6, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
is this over average, or some “replacement” level?
Dusty Baker?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Don Baylor?
Don Zimmer would also like a shot, and WAZ (Wins Above Zimmer) has a nice ring to it.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
dusty baker
is not replaceable. period. (tout he loudest thou most wanteth to keep within the division – old school baseball saying, circa ’75)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
OT
For people uncomfortable with the dollar amount of fangraphs, this is a pretty handy description of it:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-dollar-value-of-a-win/
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
It really is very simple to understand
I don’t know why anyone has a problem with it.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 4, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
OT but i just found out he was in town performing tonight
and i am very heartbroken i am here talking to you assholes instead…no offense…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
holy crap
I was there. . . sorry you missed it
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
he attempted
a new bit about dancing. But the joke started out with something like, after the show I’m going over to (dramatic pause for someone in audience to yell out a local club). Some gay guy in the front yells out the gay bar, Martha’s Vineyard. Regan doesn’t get it and everyone in the house is dying laughing. Regan is making fun of the guy about flying up to Martha’s Vineyard when the show is over. Then, some other dude runs up and whispers to Regan that its a gay bar and Regan is like “Why did you have to say it so softly? Is it against the law to say that loudly here?” It was by far the funniest part of the night but he never went back and finished the joke. Stuff like that happened the whole night, but it was a great show. He did some stuff about Tiger that was definitely new and I’m sure there was a ton more but I can’t remember. I’d definitely recommend going if you get a chance.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I've seen him three times before, he's incredible.
His best stuff is when things go wrong, like the gay bar thing you said. The last time I saw him at the Pageant, peoples beer bottles kept rolling down the floor. he finally got sick of it and said something like “Do you people not get gravity here? What the hell is going on.” Then confetti randomly started falling from the ceiling. It was bizarre and awesome.
another one from last night
Much like the odd confetti thing you had, the house lights came on for about 2 seconds right in the middle of the show for no apparent reason. He ran with it and it was hilarious, something like, “oh good, I was wondering if there was an audience out there.” Seems like maybe they program in some of those “mistakes”.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Because people are using it for things which it was not intended.
Like predicting future player prices and value.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
So MLBTR says the Yankee's are cutting payroll this season down to $185 to $190M
They got about $15 to $20M to spend this off season with multiple holes. Could we actually resign Holliday?
I still say the Sawx and Yanks are just playing coy and will start a bidding war soon.
But this little charade is definitely an intricate one.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Dec 4, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
kind of backs up what i heard last night on BBTonight
everyone likes next years free agents more than Lego, Bay, Lackey, etc. who are the free agents next year anyway?
i still find this hard to swallow. Boras wouldn’t make this big of a mistake.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Next year,
Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, and Josh Beckett will be free agents. Most of the decent hitters will be friggin old.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Ah, must have missed that.
Think Mauer will get the richest contract ever?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
they pay in hot dish up there.
they’re hardcore.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
similar to upcoming pujols
mauer will rake it in, but he won’t break ’em. talk about a hometown discount…literally.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
2011 Free Agent List
Joe Mauer
Lance Berkman
Derrek Lee
Jhonny Peralta
Jimmy Rollins
Scott Rolen
Carl Crawford
Adam Dunn
Manny Ramirez
Jorge De La Rosa
Roy Halladay
Cliff Lee
Ted Lilly
Brandon Webb
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 4, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
Also, Jayson Werth.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
SAVE UR MONEYS!!!
JOREGE DE LA ROSAS GONNA BE AVAILIABLE1one
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 4, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
Actually the great irony is that the Brewers will pick him and Mulder up
Parra, de la Rosa, and Mulder will be the 3 crappy left handed starters of doom
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 4, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ah the humor of Scott Rolen on that list
Almost as if he’s an option.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
I don't think Mauer makes it to Free Agency
Morneau didn’t, and the Twins open a new stadium next year.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think Mauer is more likely to go the Santana route than the Morneau route.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
there's no way the Twins pay him anything close to what he's worth
he’s as good as gone
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
there's no way the Twins pay him anything close to what he's worth
when he signs the hometown discount – the guy grew up a legend there, and his brother coaches in the organization.
chances of mauer leaving minny = chances of apu leaving stl
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
everyone likes next years free agents more than Lego, Bay, Lackey, etc. who are the free agents next year anyway?
The only guys approaching Holliday in value that will for sure be free agents (i.e. they don’t have a player or team option, I’m going to assume they don’t sign long term deals before they become free agents):
- Carl Crawford
- Jayson Werth
The pitching looks to be a bit better on the high end, but not so on the low end:
- Roy Halladay
- Cliff Lee
- Josh Beckett
- Javy Vazquez
- Kevin Millwood
- Ted Lilly
- Brandon Webb
If you’re looking for pitching, you might want to wait until next year. But there’s no fucking reason not to sign Matt Holliday, because there simply isn’t a hitter like him at his age in next year’s class either.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Mauer is not hitting FA.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i read today or yesterday the Yanks want Crawford and that's why they are not 6 about Lego
if you ask me, i’d much rather give him $15-$20Mil rather than Lego if i’m a GM or owner
i don’t think the baseball world is sold on Werth yet, but if he has another season like the last one they will be more inclined to think so. even if he does play in that band box.
i don’t think Lego will be back, in fact i hope he’s not. i never expected him to come back.
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serious question
Do you not want Holliday back to suit your expectations or because you would rather spend money elsewhere?
I am very high on Crawford as well.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2009 7:02 AM EST up reply actions
May I ask why?
Why would you give Crawford the same contract as Holliday? The reason I’m high on Crawford is that he could be had for less than Holliday long term. I wouldn’t pay the same price for him.
Crawford is about 9 months younger than Holliday and has a career wOBA of .343 to Holliday’s .400. In Holliday’s worst full season he was worth 4.4 WAR and hasn’t been worth less than 5.5 WAR since. Crawford has only been worth 5.5 WAR once in his career.
Crawford is about 8 runs better with the glove, but Holliday is about 15 runs better with the bat. I’d much rather have Matt Holliday than Carl Crawford if I’m paying the same price for both.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Very OT:
I’m listening to the Stereo Remaster of the Beatles Past Masters… cruising along only to hit two songs in German… completely surreal. The PA guy should really start doing that to random opposing batters coming up… I have to imagine it’d throw them off for the AB.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
i love their german tracks from the hamburg days.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
It's definately a trip when you've never heard it before.
Or when you don’t know German…
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Thanks for the extra post
I’ve always marveled at LaRussa — was guessing that he would be at 4 WAR, but I’ll take 2.5 if that’s the math. Is there anyone over their career who has been better? I understand the awe over Pujols but I’m surprised TLR doesn’t get more accolades. In his own way, he is very much like Albert.
Just win

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