Friday Notes
by DanUpBaby on Dec 4, 2009 6:00 AM EST
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PrintToday's front page post is running long, and you know what that means—an unconvincing promise that there will be a full front page entry up some time between two and five. There will be a front page post up between two and five! It's about Chris Jaffe's new book, Evaluating Baseball's Managers; he was kind enough to provide me with the sections that deal with the Cardinals' most illustrious managers. Non-surprise: Tony La Russa is among the best managers of all time. Surprise: He's among the best managers of all time... at lineup management. Running late also means... bullet points:
- Does Joe Strauss hate to be the bearer of bad omens, and do it anyway, having read The Human Comedy at an impressionable age, or does he live for this? I think it's debatable. But it's true that with no working idea of what Albert Pujols is looking to retire on devoting a franchise-player-sized chunk of payroll to your Scottie Pippen of choice is something of a crapshoot. I don't pretend to know what's best for Albert Pujols, but as the team remaining competitive goes the looming and unsurveyed massiveness of his contract extension is a serious hindrance to long-term planning.
- Well, at least ranking 29th in the recent SI.com/Baseball America team prospect power rankings meant that the Cardinals got a full-sized blurb. For me the Mark DeRosa trade will always—this is a provisional always, due to be edited out surreptitiously in 2015 should Brett Wallace become the player I thought Daric Barton was—sting worse than the Holliday move. DeRosa was theoretically an extremely useful player for the Cardinals, at least until they acquired Holliday and Lugo and pinned him to third base, but Chris Perez and Jess Todd were the last pieces of lumber on the 2008 Relief Depth Stockpile.
- That said, I'd be interested to know where the Cardinals' system would have ranked had Wallace stuck around; they did, after all, graduate Rasmus, Perez, Boggs, and Motte, and Daryl Jones and Pete Kozma, not to mention most of the Adam Reifer-y sleepers, had disappointing years. The problem isn't just the Holliday trade; it's the relative weakness of the 2007 draft as the 2005 draft graduates. Choosing Adam Ottavino and Pete Kozma in consecutive years has, to this point, made it much more difficult to say goodbye to the Walrus.
- But at least there's Shelby Miller. I'll admit it right here: The Cardinals' top prospect being a pitcher has, in post-Anthony Reyes America, made me extremely nervous. The Cardinals' Top Prospect pitchers of the decade, according to Baseball America: Anthony Reyes (2005-2006), Blake Hawksworth (2004), (2003), Jimmy Journell (2002), Bud Smith (2001), Rick Ankiel (2000.) Welcome to the club, Shelby. I hope you can hit!
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I haven't thought about that picture in AGES
poor misguided Speezer…
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
he's putting his life back together
(i dunno why I always find the rehab stories)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
wait, he's back in rehab?
in the summer he was trying to play for an independent league team in SoCal & said he was out of rehab again & was sober. did he have another relapse?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
I think he's still playing for the OC Flyers (or whoever),
I just remember all the clips of him tweaking in the dugout FSN played after he first went to rehab and it made me sad. As far as I know he has not relapsed since playing for the Flyers.
His original STL rehab stiint did clear the way for Ank, though.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
so ank is speezer's fault?
just kidding. that was fun – not the rehab, but original ank2.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
no, I'm saying I keep finding the rehab stories, not just Speezer's
(late comment!)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 10, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
I still persist that wasn't a terrible trade
I’d have loved to have kept Todd, and think the ptbnl list probably shouldn’t have included him, but we knew when we made the trade it’d likely net a supplemental pick, and had a small shot of yielding a 1st or 2nd rounder through type A (DeRo was on the cusp at times last year). Realistically, if you parlay the 40th or whatever overall pick in the draft into the best available college closer (in fact, the OVERALL best RP arm in the draft may still be available then, some years) then you’ve got a pretty decent chance to produce someone like Perez 2 or 3 years down the line – that is, a relief prospect with excellent stuff and (at the time of the trade) really concerning control issues.
Add in the fact that there was a chance we got a type-A compensation pick as well, and it doesn’t look so bad to me. I was and am a huge Todd fan, I think he’s got a decent chance to be an OK set-up guy or a decent #3/4-type starter, but, realistically, there’s a chance he doesn’t pan out to much and a very high chance he won’t be a real “impact” talent. DeRosa looked like a true-talen 3-4 WAR player (probably closer to 3, tbh) based on his last couple of seasons, and he really filled a need for us perfectly – we had holes at 3B and LF, and issues with LHP, and he looked like he could fill whichever of those holes (3B, LF) turned out to be deepest, giving us some versatility. It was probably a +2 win move for 2009, and (at the time it was made) we were treading water and looking like we were going to be in a tough playoff race.
OK, in hindsight, Perez did great in Cleveland and restored his prospect reputation (which we might’ve foreseen, but was by no means a certainty) and DeRosa had a bum wrist so only gave us about 1 WAR, but I don’t know how much we should evaluate trades in retrospect, it seems a bit unfair.
The Holliday trade, to me, looked bad when it was made and still looks bad now.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 8:24 AM EST up reply actions
I Still...
….wear a black arm band to mourn the loss of the Walrus. Well, 4 of them, anyway. And a black scrunchy on my tail. I’d add a headband to accessorize, but, you know, the whole unopposable hoof-thing…
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
you have serious issues.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
(says a dog with a side-parting....)
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
It's a dog?
I thought it was a meerkat.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Why be that mean to the dog?
What did it do to you?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 4, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
sad cow
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 4, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
I think this is the leader in the clubhouse
for official livestock of Albertofstan.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Second! I also suggest that emo bacon cows are to be herded by firebreathing unicorn cowgirls
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
by YesWeOquendo on Dec 4, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That should be filed under
When Keepin it Real with Photoshop Goes Wrong
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
not sure I agree that "perez did great in cleveland".
4.12 FIP as a reliever, 4.32 ERA with a .250ish BABIP. There was a stretch there where he was ridiculous, but it’s bookended by games where he got bombed, and he finished the season in something of a tailspin.
Of course Perez was pitching hurt all season and had ankle surgery the week the season ended. If that fixes his control, then he could be something special, but he didn’t prove anything this year.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
the issue is
we did not both holliday and rosy
i think i/we be more comfortable if we had made only one of those deals
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
DeRosa only made sense if we didn't sign Holliday
taken together with the HOlliday deal, it was kinda dumb. DeRo’s big value to us is that he could play 3B OR LF, our two weakest spots. If (say) Ankiel got his stroke back against RHP, he could’ve played LF with DeRo at 3B vs RHP, DeRo in LF and (say) Barden or someone at 3B vs LHP, or if every other possible LF option sucked, we could’ve used DeRo primarily in LF. That flexibility allowed us to (potentially) get the best out of our pu-pu platter of platoon and replacement-level LF and 3B options.
When we signed Holliday, DeRo was basically confined to 3B, so we might as well have just traded for a full-time 3B.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2009 4:36 AM EST up reply actions
and he made colby smile, which has a negative value
since it distracts colby from selling it
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
agree 100% with monk
can’t even quibble with a single word.
even if we resign holliday (seems to me to be a lot of public negotiating going on, using thy name of pujols as cover in some form – funny, but the more the odds of resigning him increase, the less i want that to happen) – if i were to ever have a mancrush, the walrus is my type. offensively, i envisioned a blend of the best of mark grace and ryan howard rolled into one package. i’m a bit torn on resigning holliday, but the walrus is likely why i’d just as soon he move on.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Holliday pay
So, now the Cards are worried abot Matt’s big pay day.
Given the unique circumstance of the next couple years with a lot of payroll room, why not consider giving Matt a front-loaded contract instead of a back loaded contract. For instance, put him at $25 per year for the first two years and then $10-13 per year for the remaining years. Since we have some payroll flexibility now, we can absorb the big hit now (when he is probably going to be worth that much). In the later years, his contract is reasonable and tradeable if he starts to decline and you want to go a diferent direction.
Of course that means no other signings (including Derosa and Pineiro) except backfills but if you assume we sign one low cost number 4(smoltz?), use Garcia/Parisi/Hawksworth for number 5, use Mr Freeze at third we have a playoff caliber team for the next two years.
This also has the value of detoxing the books for the big Albert extension in two years. I’d rather have that than two back end loaded contracts for Albert and Matt in their decline phase.
Just win
good thought, the duke
Plus, I tend to side with hardcore legend (where did he go?) that the càrds have the ability to increase payroll. If there is a time to do it, now is. We have the best player of his generation, the cards should allocate more resources to surround him with the best possible talent. I’m not saying go yankee or even red sox crazy more like an increase to 115-120. Is that unrealistic to ask?
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
by njnick on Dec 4, 2009 7:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
HL
I’m sure he’s in his mother’s basement, watching regular season Cardinals games on DVD from the 1980s…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I know
that’s what I do on the weekends. Well, except that it’s my own basement, and I don’t limit myself to regular season games (Game 3 of the 1982 Series was a great one).
And sometimes I watch games from other teams.
But otherwise, yeah, that’s what I do.
by Michael_68_1999 on Dec 4, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
the thing is
Albert’s extension. I thought they were looking to do it this offseason or next. If we have holliday at 25 mil the next 2 years, then next years payroll is going to be humongous – well over any reasonable increase in payroll
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
the extension won't kick in until 2012.
so the proposed peak CY10 and 11 salary should easily fit within budget, as long as we don’t sign any more lohses.
This isn’t a bad idea. There are time value of money issues with it, though- might be better to do this in spirit (IE, put the money in the bank as a special Holliday CY14-15-16 fund) rather than give it to the player, unless he be willing to give a discount.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
I don't get why the Cardinals are suddenly acting surprised
that they are going to have to pay to keep Holliday. This seems like all the offseasons before where they try to convince us that some free agent is really just a money grubbing whore who wouldn’t come play in Baseball Heaven for a penny less.
The Cardinals need Holliday. Just sign him and stop letting Strauss have something to blather about at the STL-PD.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
DeWitt consistently talks out of both sides of his mouth.
One minute, he says the Cards will make every effort to sign pujols to an extension and sign holliday…the next minute he is saying it may be very hard to sign both
He needs to either think before he speaks, or live up to what he says
its disappointing
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
I personally think more of this has to do with Strauss than DeWitt
Fire Joe Strauss!!! FJS!!!
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Dec 4, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
+1
I should’ve skipped out on that responsibility crap and gone to the talk.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Very, very good point.
Strauss is one of the worst sportswriters I’ve ever read. Not even unicorns can save his reporting editorializing these days. His editor needs to make it clear to him that he is not a columnist. They already have Gordo, Burwell, and Bernie. They don’t need Strauss opining as well.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Strauss is one of the worst sportswriters I’ve ever read.
I don’t know. He’s got lots of competition. I could probably count on one hand the number of newspaper sports writers I actually respect.
by arch support on Dec 4, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
I don't mean columnists.
I mean those who are basically beat reporters. I don’t know that we disagree on this, but the lines have become so murky as to who is what—with blogs and online chats and everything—that I wanted to make sure that we were on the same page.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
not the worst
but definitely one of the more curmudgeon-y. He dishes it out, but more often than not it seems like he can take it. Although I find the irony of him tweeting something like he didn’t like the smugness of some of the saber-folk when the awards were being handed out. .
godfather of futureredbirds.net
both things
can, and probably are, true.
They’ll strive to sign him, but it will make things challenging financially if they do.
just like fuentes
one offer at whatever value they come up with
and then adios and on to other things
if had done fuentes, i doubt both rosy and matty would have been birds in 09
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
i'm glad they didn
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
sbn'ed
didn’t do fuentes, though, aren’t you?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
This is partly why I'm leary of guys like Rafael Soriano this year
I’m OK taking a short-term risk (even for decent $) on non-type A closers but giving up draft picks and multiple years for a closer whose name isn’t Nathan or Rivera is all downside, IMO.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2009 4:40 AM EST up reply actions
Strauss loves to stir the pot
and he foams at the mouth if it’s something about Albert.
Bottom line: DeWitt needs to ask Pujols what he wants to retire as a Cardinal….then DeWitt gives it to him. Period…It’s a done deal and the media can go find another story. I don’t want to go two more fucking years of this “Will we sign Albert????”
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
But I love Strauss's columns
they’re so insightful and thoroughly researched.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 8:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think Dewitt's comments are a negotiating ploy
I dont agree with the strategy but I think that’s where he is coming from.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
sorta like the Michael Scott guide to negotiation. Pujols is not Darryl
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
Everything out of DeWitt's and Mo's mouths
these days is a negotiating tactic. I don’t think we’ll know anything for another week or so. The Cards will either make a fair (or unreasonable) offer to Holliday in the next week or they plan to sit back and see if someone else will extend him an offer, and begin to set the market. (In rereading this comment, I think I covered ALL the possibilities!!)
for some reason I enjoy Mo's double-talk
he’s so earnest, and his clauses don’t run into each other.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Duke
I like your frontloaded contract idea, btw. I’ve never understood why teams don’t really do that – I think it’s partially due to the short leashes (relatively) that GMs have; not much point playing to release salary pressure 6 years down the line when there’s every chance you’ll be out of a job next April if this year’s team doesn’t produce.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 8:28 AM EST up reply actions
That and the fact that the market changes so rapidly.
A GM might not care too greatly about payroll in six years given that his job isn’t the most secure, but the owner still should.
Meanwhile, $15 million in 2003 has a different value in 2010. And I’m not just talking about general inflation. Moreso, the inflation in the baseball market specifically.
Last year’s offseason was so unusual, in part, because baseball’s value inflation was curbed . . . and in many cases reversed (e.g., Adam Dunn, Orlando Hudson, Bobby Abreu).
Front-loaded contracts make some sense, but I’m guessing the contrast between dollar value now and dollar value in the future is what keeps teams from embracing them.
from an organizational standpoint
I can’t think of any reason to care about anything other than the net present value of the contract. You can always turn a backloaded contract into a frontloaded one as far as a trade is concerned by eating some of the contract later.
Based on how contracts are reported, I’d imagine given two contracts that are equal in NPV, a player is more likely to accept the backloaded contract, because it naively looks like more money.
by brackenthebox on Dec 4, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Based on how contracts are reported, I’d imagine given two contracts that are equal in NPV, a player is more likely to accept the backloaded contract, because it naively looks like more money.
Presumably professional agents are able to inform their clients that the value of money in the here-and-now is greater than an identical sum of money in the future?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
That's what I was thinking
Not to mention that it’s in the agent’s financial interest as well, assuming they make a certain % of a deal (maybe not all agents work this way, I am just speculating). So I am still kind of surprised there isn’t more front-loading.
There’s probably a lot of posturing about it. Also, paying a guy more after he’s been with your team for a certain amount of time seems like a “reward” for service, perhaps.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
don't forget though
that agents are always in the business of attracting new clients, which is of course in their financial interest, so taking a contract for a magic number like 100 mil, even if it’s backloaded to not really be worth that over time and thus the agent takes a slight hit on the value of his percentage (the player takes the bigger hit, obviously) – well, if that “success” draws him x number of new clients…i’m sure they have it all worked out in an orderly fashion.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
yes, of course
these lawyer-agents and accountants are negotiating contracts worth millions of dollars – they absolutely do NPV (which is covered in day one of any basic econ/finance class).
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 4, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Economics versus Budget
Companies should make decisions on NPV, but they also have to be concerned about the annual budget. Holliday may be worth $110 million from an NPV perspective, but from a budget perspective, they have more room to manuever in the next two years so from my view, use that budget room now and leave yourself more flexibility later. I was assuming a constant NPV — of course the analysis gets trickier if front-loading increases NPV.
Just win
How many years do you string his contract out for?
6/96= 2 yrs@25&4@11.5.That would be a big falloff. If you stepped it down gradually, then that last year would almost be free in comparison. Not that I’m complaining with free, but it might take some kind of extra sweetener to get him to bite because none of these guys want to play for free, no matter how much they have already made.
But as you say, we could eat the later contract years if they weren’t worth much.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 4, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
That's not a link. Not sure what I did there.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 4, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Jimminy Cricket? Is that you?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 4, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Just what I need,
an over-sized f’ing concience.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 5, 2009 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
I'm assuming a seven year deal
My thought is that they know what they need to do to keep Albert, they know they are a playoff caliber team while Carp is healthy, and they don’t want two escalating salaries from 2012 to 2016, so pay holliday now and have him in a salry decline while Pujols ramps up. I can’t project specific amounts per year — just throwing out a concept
Then the next big challenge is finding a number two when Carp rolls off in a couple years.
Just win
I have no problem with the concept.
just didn’t know how long you were thinking. Seven is a little long for my taste but we could dump the last two years if need be.
I would say that they are hoping that Miller will be the phenom to replace Carp.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 5, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
AJ's working as fast as he can
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
If there ever was a born prodigy, it's him.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 6, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
word
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
he's keeping his eyes on the prize
Little Mang has ten fingers too.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
inflation
makes dollars now cheaper than future dollars, for one thing.
teams don't do front-loaded contracts because it makes no sense economically
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 4, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Economically it doesn't
but in terms of market and player evaluation I think that it actually has some merit for the club, not necessarily for the player.
If you’re signing a deal that offers you $25M per season for the first two seasons and then $12M, $10M, $8M the next three, well, the club doesn’t think much of your worth beyond the first two years, so you’re probably going to get dealt, and they’re making it easier to deal you — better get that no-trade clause buddy!
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Plus. . .
until perhaps relatively recently, salary inflation has been so great that the player could really be selling himself short in the out years unless the up-front years are at some sort of ridiculous premium.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 4, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
If I were a player
I’d want the larger sum of money up front. Pay me $12M now and I can make that additional money into more money. By the time year three rolls around and I’m down to $8M, it doesn’t bother me because that $12M from two years ago is now $15M. (Purely hypothetical; I’m not saying a player actually invests all of his salary, nor that he would automatically get a $3M return on a $12M investment over two years.)
That's assuming it's about money over all else though
If I was a player in 2006, I would have taken a shitload of money up front on a 5 or 6 year contract just for tax purposes alone, but I’m probably not going to sign with the Nationals if I can get a similar contract with the money backloaded from a competitive team.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Backloaded or even deferred.
Aren’t we still paying Rolen and Edmonds?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 4, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
I think we finished paying Rolen this year
and Edmonds last.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2009 4:44 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, every player would want the money up front
and every team wants the opposite. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 4, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, that's true
but having the flexibility to dump a contract in the latter years of if it is also advantageous to the club, just not to the player most of the time.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
but there's still zero advantage to the club
all the club has to do is include cash with the player to balance the books. There is no real “flexibility” offered by front-loading, unless the club has zero cash reserves.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
I disagree
What’s the worst part of the awful Vernon Wells contract? The fact that it’s backloaded with RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS the next few years. Had those been on the front of the contract, the Jays might actually be able to keep Alex Rios last season and be able to lock up their other players pre-arbitration because they would be paying Vernon Wells less.
Also, wouldn’t you rather be paying players more when they are likely to be worth more? Pujols likely won’t be a 7 WAR player at age 39, so why not pay him $30M per season when he’s likely to be worth $30M per season and then significantly less later on, so you can pay other players to stay competitive in his twilight years?
I was an Economics major, so I understand NPV front to back. I just think that in a closed system of jobs with guaranteed contracts like the MLB has, that certain economic principles don’t apply. Similarly, in the NBA you would actually be better off paying every player their entire contract in the last year of the contract, so you only hit the luxury tax once and then have that contract as an expiring deal. This also violates the laws of economics, but it’s true given the market, system, and rules set up in that closed system.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
the worst thing about the VW contract
is that they gave him $126 million dollars. He still wouldn’t be trade-able even if they had given him a $40M signing bonus and reduced the last 4 years of the contract by 10M each (with proper NPV adjustment).
And the net result, to the club, would not be one bit different than if they had put that $40M into a bank account and given him a $40M bonus the day they decide to trade him (or gave that money to the gaining team to use to pay the out year salary).
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Again, respectfully, disagree
Wells is going to be untradable at this point because he’s terrible AND he has a huge contract. If he were making, say, $10M next season you’re telling me that a team might not roll the dice on him? Are you also saying that the Jays would have dumped Alex Rios like a hot turd had they been able to pay both Wells and Rios the amount they’re going to pay Wells alone in 2010? I say no.
Again, it makes more sense to frontload in certain instances. If a player is 29 years old it makes sense to frontload the deal for a number of reasons:
- It’s going to be easier to predict his numbers next year than 4 years down the road.
- He’s more likely to be worth a higher dollar figure next year than 4 years from now.
- It makes his contract more affordable later in his career, so the team doesn’t have aging players with huge albatross contracts — they’ll be able to add other talent to supplant said aging player’s decline.
The Yankees have essentially done this with A-Rod’s mid-loaded contract. By the last three years of the deal he will make $12M less than at the peak of the deal in 2010 and 2011. It allows them the flexibility to add another $10-$12M player in the last three years of his deal for the same amount that they’ll pay him in 2010. To me, that’s just smart — he isn’t likely to be a 7 WAR player in 2015, but he’ll likely be one in 2010 and 2011.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
but you still aren't explaining
why it’s better, for the team, to pay $x more now, instead of putting $x in the bank and paying it later, if necessary.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Unless there's deflation
sorry had to get a blowhard comment in there.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
I love how that
keeps coming back sporadically in South Park
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Blasphemy
Albert in a decline phase? I hate to think of Superman, old and run down, hiding lonely in the Fortress of Solitude. No way. Albert will never decline. At least not until we’re all old and gone, and the Cubs have a shot a World Series. Take me now, Lord. I can’t bear the thought.
SD
Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow, anyway?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 4, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
This quote from the SI article made me scratch my head.
2009 first-rounder Shelby Miller, a promising right-hander but a prep pitcher who has yet to play a full season
To the un-educated, it might convey that Miller has been injury prone and an issue. But, the truth is (obscured as it is) Miller hasn’t had the opportunity to “play a full season” since he HASN’T BEEN IN PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL FOR A “FULL SEASON”.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
AJ Pujols only just started working with him.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
DeWitt event at Webster summary
I’m pretty sure the little Rotoworld quote on the left of the screen was taken from a Q&A session during Bill DeWitt’s little breakfast with business leaders event at Webster University yesterday morning.
I posted the details of the event last week because I was hoping someone would be able to make it (my schedule looked bad). However, I ended up getting over there and all-in-all, it was pretty decent.
He talked about “Baseball Economics and the St. Louis Cardinals.” His talk included some “data” (e.g., spending, revenue, distribution of resources, how we rank against other MLB teams), but it was mostly focused on how dependent STL is on season ticket holders/ticket sales in general in terms of making up their revenue pie, particularly compared to other clubs. This wasn’t news, but I thought it was good how he presented everything because it really did give people more info, which is usually a good thing, IMO.
To his credit, I think that he did a good job explaining the variety of factors that go into their decisions. He also explicitly talked about how their “mid-market” status necessarily lends itself to a more sabremetrically-inclined approach, which was encouraging. He talked about emphasizing young, cost-controlled guys. He talked about the value of an extra run or two. He talked about wanting to sign Holliday, but with the similar refrain of not going much beyond whatever value they set for him. He talked about the slotting system, International scouting/player development.
And when asked about Albert’s contract, well, he talked about how the ironic thing is that Albert’s (and anyone’s) wish to play on a winning team often hinges on how much money that one player will make. How if he could just get Albert to take $1 mil, well, they could have $99 mil for other great players, but they could also pay Albert $95 mil, but then they’d only have about $5 mil to fill out the team, then it would just be 24 guys and Albert. [insert audience chuckle here]. He gave his whole speech about value, then qualified all of it with “but Albert’s Albert.”
Anyway, I figured I’d try to summarize. If I find a link with the presentation or something archived somewhere, I’ll post it.
Later VEBers!
by goodymobb on Dec 4, 2009 9:18 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
note to self:
Read links. Yes, the quote referenced was from that event. And I wish I would’ve seen Strauss at the event…I would’ve tried to do the whole “sneakily crawl behind him, crouch down, and have someone gently brush by him so that he trips backwards over my Ninja Assassin-style crouching body” move.
And if you haven’t yet read the Strauss articles, well, this one and this one are basically identical, like with the same content, quotes, and everything. Dude really mailed it in here.
I often find it funny that Strauss
gets paid to put up articles like that, which any fan could find by crawling over to VEB and looking around a little bit.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Isn't it sad, though,
that we can generally type up what Tony LaRussa or John Mozeliak says before they actually say it? What good is access when you never glean anything substantial from the people you have access to? Hell, Hardcore Legend scooped every one of the P-D guys on the Duncan trade last season.
Someone posted about a luncheon where Bill DeWitt spoke and gave about 10X the amount of information about how the organization thinks and does business than anything that Strauss has written in the last 2 years, and did it without sounding a like a punk. I really like Goold’s posts but Strauss is just filler for the newspaper page, a column posing as news. This is part of the reason I’m glad that the internet is hurting newspapers a bit — maybe they’ll get rid of these lazy ass journalists and start reporting real, in-depth news that people are actually interested in reading.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
+1
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry if that sounded rant-ish
I think part of it stems from the fact that people who don’t get paid for their time, like our mods, generally put up more interesting pieces about the team than people who get paid to do nothing but report on the team itself.
If there was some impartiality involved I could understand that, but there isn’t. Strauss grinds his axe impartially all the damn time. He’s either got an editor who doesn’t give a shit or dirty pictures of said editor.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
if you read his twitter
you can listen to the axe 24-7
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I don't subject myself the the torture that is Twitter
and, even if I did, I wouldn’t have Strauss on my Twitter feed.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
...so he admits that ticket sales are the main revenue contributor
even though ticket sales have been drastically increasing (attendance records a few years), however, this years payroll was smaller than in 2006. Attendance was over 3.4 mil despite the 2007-2008 3rd and 4th place finishes. So naturally he decreases payroll by 11 mil for 2009 and blamed the economy. Could the cards have used a 11million dollar (talent) player in 2009? Dick in a Toaster thinking aside, of course.
Due to that statement I think they are expected to be at least at 100-110 mil in 2010 following the statement that attendance is that important. In the past 4 years it was around the 3.4-3.5 million compared to 2.9-3.0 mil the years prior….
2010 = $69.9m…leaving 30-40 mil to fill 09 Pinata innings, fix the pen, 3b and LF. Yummy.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Dick in a Toaster thinking aside, of course.
Dude, is there any other way to think? To paraphrase Ian Siegal: “I’m a dick-in-a-toaster kinda guy”.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
All Star Game Impact on Attendance
I’ve always assumed the Cards project attendance to drop, perhaps fairly dramatically, next year without the all-star game to draw fans and inflate season ticket purchases.
by 51 on Dec 4, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
quality of club followed by quality of stadium
has always been the strongest correlation to attendance.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
the deal is, no matter what they say
they allocate so much to mlb payroll based on a projected ticket revenue
that is basically discretionary/variable income
a tv contract has known value going in, so much easier to budget the more of that you have
so, though the daily comments make for good fodder, they don’t change the realistic revenue range they deal with
i think they didn’t do anything in 08 was carp and the reason they did in 09 was carp
if they hit the break in good health and good standing, they decide to go for it. in truth i don’t see how they can pay matty and apu for the next 5-6 years. apu is more important. incremental cost of matty over others, eg, cameron, is too much and i don’t believe they ever intended to pay it.
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
What was the salary at the end of the season?
I’m asking because I don’t know. I was under the impression that the organization cut payroll in anticipation of a decline in attendance. When the fans showed up, they added DeRosa and Holliday. Even pro-rated, their salaries probably increased overall payroll by a little under $10MM, right?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yes
about $9.5M actually. Holliday was around $6.5M and DeRosa was around $3M pro-rated for their time in the BoB this season.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think overall we spent in the mid-to-late 90s
off the top of my head I think about $98m or so.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Attendance
I do think that they were concerned about attendance last year, as they should have been. But, once the attendance figures came out looking good, they did make moves to improve the club midseason while adding payroll, so I really can’t fault them for that.
FWIW, I think our payroll is about where it should be. Most owners generally abide by the 50% Rule: That payroll should make up about 50% of your revenues. Even the Yankees abide by this for the most part — it’s just that they have so much more revenue than other clubs do. in 2008, revenues were around $195M, and payroll was around $100M, which is just over 50%. I haven’t seen estimated figures for 2009, but I’ll guess that revenues were about stagnant due to more discount ticket pricing, even though attendance was up. The organization should have gotten a slight bump due to one playoff game and the All-Star Weekend. Our payroll was again about $100M after you add in DeRosa and Holliday’s pro-rated salaries to the beginning payroll for the year. Are there other sources of revenue besides ticket prices? Yes, but DeWitt’s comments seem to make me think that they really do look at projected ticket sales to determine how much they want to spend in a given year, and that it is the #1 determining factor.
Do I think the organization could spend more? Yes, I do, but only because I think that they can make money on the back end by getting some home playoff games. I really do think that a payroll of $110M for more than a couple of years is extremely unrealistic given the circumstances that this club has to account for when projecting revenue. You can’t ask ownership to lose money in a given year just to take a shot at winning. I, for one, don’t want that because that leads to poor decisions down the road when they try to recoup that money in another calendar year.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'd be willing to bet
195 million internet dollars that the Cardinals total revenue is quite a bit more than 195 million.
You're going to end up owing me 195M internet dollars then
because their total revenue is not much more than that, even though the numbers aren’t disclosed.
I should have linked to the Forbes article, but Flim has linked to it here.
Why does everyone think that these clubs are just pocketing hundreds of millions of dollars every year? That couldn’t be further from the truth.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
they're not pocketing hundreds of millions
but they are making a big profit. the owners aren’t in this biz to lose money.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Estimated operating income for 2008
was $6.6M, that’s before taxes. They aren’t making money hand over fist, that’s for sure.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
That doesn't include all the revenue sharing money from the general fund
but they also have to put money INTO that fund as well, remember, so it’s not as cut and dry as many people would like to think.
I do think that 50% of the teams are in the black, and the Cardinals are one of those. But if you think that Bill DeWitt Jr. couldn’t make MORE money investing in a different business, you’re dead wrong. He could run a Venture Capital fund and make double what he makes in baseball.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
where are you getting these numbers?
i don’t think they are making $50Mill per, but i do believe they are making around $10Mil per
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Click Flim's link
It’s the Forbes report on the Cardinals for 2008.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
If you're Tiger Woods
and you’re worth around $800M, why don’t you tip the dealers when you gamble? He doesn’t tip, at all, and I’ve heard this from various Vegas dealers.
Most billionaires are the biggest fucking tightwads you’ll find. That’s how they got to be billionaires in the first place. Warren Buffett was worth nearly $30B at one time, and still lives in the same house that he did 40 years ago, drives a ‘91 Cadillac, and doesn’t even have a corner office.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i will wager
that he does tip…someone(s)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I am not so sure we are receiving money from the revenue sharing.
Not from stuff like the Luxury taxes. That goes to the poorer teams. Maybe revenue from online content though.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 4, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW
the club itself is only valued at $495M, so what makes you think that their revenues are in any way more than 40% of that total?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Uh oh
He said Albert’s name twice… that’s never a good sign.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Backup Plan to Holliday
so, in lieu of JSL!!‘s pulitzer I thought I’d put this out there.
MLBTradeRumors “aka my other December Guilty Pleasure”, has this nice tidbit about Seattle leading the pack for Chone Figgins, and it being speculated at 4yr/30M or so.
My reaction is, is that all!? I was under the assumption it would take a bit more, but that cost, as an alternative to Holliday, seems to me to be very agreeable. I know the source may be completely wrong, but from that salary point, a versatile INF/OF who switch hits, and can get on base has a lot of appeal.
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
$8 million would probably be a value next year
but i have a feeling it would be over paying by quite a bit in 4 years. But with salary inflation i could be wrong.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
that seems insanely cheap
I can’t believe he’ll go for that. I’d go as high as something like 3/35 or 4/40 for Figgins but I doubt that’d be enough to get him.
Combining his eponymous projections next year (CHONE) with his apparent defensive ability at 3B, he’s about a 3.5 win player.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Insanley cheap
If that is all it takes, we should sign him. His OBP and defense are great. He would be ideal as a tablesetter for Pujols. Ideal. I was working on a Fanpost entitled “Why Figgins should be the Cards’ Plan B,” but I haven’t had time these last couple of weeks to finish it. Should I? Or, should I not bother what with his signing seeming forthcoming?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'd rather have
Adrian Beltre for the same contract. Younger, more pop, better defense.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I always forget how young Beltre is.
He debuted at such a young age.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
With the Phillies signing Polanco
and the M’s going after Figgins, he seems like the odd man out. I wonder if his price will get to a level below an AAV $8M or so and make him a really affordable pickup. I think he’s a bounce back candidate offensively next year.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Isn't he Boston-bound?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Who is Boston-bound?
Figgins? Beltre? I know only that Scutaro is.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Beltre, I assumed
they need a 3B, they like defense, and he’s the best defensive 3B available.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
beltre could stay in seattle, too
and if figgins is headed there, he’d play second.
i could see that scenario, and then they pick up lackey and bay.
of course, i’ve always maintained that beltre wouldn’t get a big contract like some believe (i suppose based on that one year in LA and the resultant deal in seattle)
he may well stay in seattle for 4/30. or maybe he gets that mega-deal, but i don’t see why or how, once philly made their choice between he and polanco (derosa was never going to be the everyday third baseman there or they’d have just kept feliz, and they weren’t going to displace rollins or victorino at the top of the order for figgins, especially for four years)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Have the Mariners won the lottery and I didn't hear about it?!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2009 4:47 AM EST up reply actions
i don't know
but i did read they would have over 40mil coming off the books, which includes beltre, and maybe they could get those guys for that. i do think that players will get less than is being bandied about, though perhaps not holliday, depending on who’s bidding on him.
you could replace bay with matsui. apparently he pays for himself, as he supposedly generated about 15 mil in addtional revenue for the yanks last year.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Figgy got 8m
Beltre should get more, really, and is wanting >$10m, I expect Lackey and Bay will both get $15m minimum. So I don’t think they could afford all of them. There are probably cheaper OF options than Bay – if they wanted to continue shopping in their own division, hows about Marlon Byrd?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2009 6:40 AM EST up reply actions
Beltre's asking price
MLBTR channels Olney (normal grains of salt are to be taken):
As teams have been checking in on the availability of infielders, they have found that the asking price for Beltre is no less than $10 million a year, and for DeRosa, it’s a three-year deal for something in the range of $9 million a year.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Dear Jim Hendry
Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa Please sign DeRosa
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yes,
then trade us Milton Bradley for 10 cents on the dollar so we have a left fielder next season.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Will MB work w/ TLR?
I see different directions this good go. On the one hand, it might become a even more dramatic version of TLR vs. AK or Rolen. On the other, TLR’s fierce loyalty to his players might actually provide the shelter to protect MB. Regardless, MB is one of my favorite baseball names (not a fav in terms a player).
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
Actually
I think that he would work pretty good with TLR. Tony’s clubhouses are nearly always insular, and Bradley busts his ass when he’s on the field — he isn’t lazy. He seems like the type of guy that Tony would like as a player. TLR is so protective of his players and he doesn’t scrutinize them to the public, and I think that’s what really started to get MB’s goat last year in Chicago — he didn’t feel like Piniella was sticking up for him and that pissed him off.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
no he won't
he’s a media whore & wants all the attention all the time. he’ll never be able to play 5th fiddle here. he’ll do or say something about Albert or Yadda not running down the line on a grounder to 2nd, or make up something else about Adam or Carp & cause a bunch of trouble just so we’ll look at him.
he’s a cancer & has been given chance after chance after chance after chance to prove he’s not, and all he’s done is prove he is. i for one don’t want his last chance to be on my team where there’s a 100% chance he’ll cause trouble. he’s a hell of a talent, there’s no doubt about that. but his biggest, & really his only enemy, is himself. he’s a $50Million dollar talent with a 10cent head.
hell he can’t even count to 3.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
I don't buy that logic
Just like I didn’t buy the logic of Ron Artest being a cancer to the Lakers when they signed him this offseason. If you’ve got a couple of Alpha Dogs on your team, and the Cardinals do in Molina and Pujols, you can control a player like Bradley. He’s also never played on a successful team in his whole career. Not one.
I also don’t think that he’s a media whore — I think the he gets in the paper because of his antics, which are purely driven by his personality, it has nothing to do with his WANTING to be in the paper every day. I don’t buy that for one second. He’s actually a better player in a smaller market where the media doesn’t blow shit out of proportion all the time, which is why he isn’t a good fit in Chicago.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
artest isn't as bad as bradley
i don’t think bradley can be controlled, heck i don’t think he can even be contained. and how can you think he’s not a media whore? why do you think he does what he does?
he’s been ran out of every town he’s played in, small, medium & large. like i said, he’s been given too many chances already to prove he’s not trouble, and each & every time he’s proves he’s nothing but.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Artest isn't as bad as Bradley???????
Artest single handedly destroyed the Pacers entire organization for years with that brawl.
Not afraid to nitpick
not to mention bradley hasnt been run out of town everywhere either
texas, san diego, oakland
i dont remember him being run out of town and in fact there was some talk that 2 of those teams would deal to get him back this winter
he just proved what we already know
the NBA is full of thug wanna be gangsters. the NBA was already in trouble & is still in big time trouble.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Artest single handedly destroyed a franchise
Milton Bradley is not in the same league as Ron Artest.
Not afraid to nitpick
In fairness
the Cubs didn’t have as far to fall. Thanks I’ll be here all week.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
That, sir,
is a gross mis-characterization of NBA players. I’m sorry, but the NFL has WAY more problems than the NBA on this front.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
no way, the NFL has much better PR
they have the media behind too them that won’t let them get killed & will do everything to make sure nothing sticks to the NFL
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
That's not what I'm saying
I’m saying that the NFL has more problems with players than the NBA does, I don’t care how it’s reported in the media.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'm just happy hockey flies under the radar...
Well unless your name is Bobby Hull and you’re a well known drunk and abuser… but other than him under the radar.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
when there's a fist fight on a basketball court, it's national news.
when it’s on a hockey rink, it only makes sportscenter if somebody loses a tooth or something.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Yeah but there aren't a lot of NHLers caught up in murder plots
The NFL can’t exactly say that…
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Oh right...
forgot about that guy. But the NFL does have a much more impressive of guys implicated in murder investigations than the NHL does. Hell one of them made the Madden cover…
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
It's a truly beautiful system we have
worked out for ourselves… Can’t we get some robot juries and if you did it you go to the pokey?
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
somewhere
Rae Carruth cowers in the trunk of a car
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
"Everybody kills people."
-Tyrelle Pryor
by Mister Eff on Dec 4, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
depending on how you look at that, it's either
deep or just deeply sociopathic.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I'm going for the latter.
Not everybody’s the perfect person in the world. I mean everyone kills people, murders people, steals from you, steals from me, whatever. I think that people need a second chance, and I’ve always looked up to Mike Vick, and I always will.
they don't pay him to be smrt
side note, i can’t wait for the Oregon Ducks to utterly destroy these poisonous nuts in the Rose Bowl. it’s going to be an epic blood bath. and i can’t wait.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
I'm a bit scared
of what uniform Nike Mom will dress them in for the game. It has the potential to make the baby Jesus cry.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
is it really more?
isn’t it about the same? honestly, i don’t know anymore. i stopped paying attention to the NBA years ago
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
artest did it in one fell swoop
whereas bradley has those skillz to go totally momentarily insane, he also has a slow, inexorable persistence about him resembling inoperable cancer.
also, on a lighter note, artest is one of the premier players in the game whereas bradley is just pretty good.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
?
also, on a lighter note, artest is one of the premier players in the game whereas bradley is just pretty good.
I’m not even going to respond to this, other than to say that if Milton Bradley could stay healthy like Ron Artest, he’d be one of the top 10 players in baseball. Go look at his wOBA’s and WAR values on FanGraphs — he’s a pretty damn good player.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i can't look at anything
while i’m laughing like a maniac – perhaps later when it subsides
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Top 5 wOBA's of Milton Bradley's career:
.423, .405, .397, .363. Career wOBA of .357.
That’s pretty fucking good. He led the ENTIRE American League in OPS in 2008, and they have professional hitters hit for pitchers over there.
Keep in mind — he’s played 130 games in a season exactly once in his career.
You can laugh all you want, my point still stands.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
if pigs could fly
your point is what? that milton fucking bradley, if healthy, is one of the top ten players in baseball? that is what you said, is it not?
if you want to break him into the top 60 or so (if healthy), i’d debate that
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yes, I think he would be
The injuries have taken a toll on him. He can’t run well enough to play CF anymore and he was a league average or better defender out there.
You just hate all things Milton Bradley — that’s obvious. If so, why bother debating it? You hate the guy, fine, move on. Making emotional arguments makes you look like a fool because the evidence is there that he’s a pretty damn good player when he’s healthy and he could be had for next to nothing.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
milton bradley
for HOF!
c’mon man, you’re the one said he was top 10 in baseball (if healthy).
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Texas didn't run him out of town
Neither did Cleveland or San Diego.
He didn’t want to be in Oakland since they had no commitment to winning, and I can understand that. The Dodgers ran him out on a rail and that was probably deserved, but I think he learned a lot from that experience.
He’s not as bad as Artest? This is guy who jumped on the team bus, wearing only underwear and headphones, for playoff game last year, beat up a bunch of fans in a brawl, and admitted to drinking Hennessy during the halftime of games.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
you all are misremembering
don’t you remember the press conferences the Indians held explaining why he had to go? and what about the last day of the season in san diego when he blew out his knee arguing with the ump? so texas wants him back? one team out of the 10 he’s been on wants him back. what about the other 9 who want nothing to do with him?
we all agree he’s a good talent. but i guarantee you he’s not worth it. he never has been & he never will be.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
We've covered MLB and NBA how about NFL examples?
TO is a cancer everywhere he’s been. Randy Moss and Cory Dillon, OTOH, have been great with the Pats. Some say that only certain franchises can handle nut cases. I just don’t know if Cards is the franchise. I think I agree more with fourstick that MB is not seeking attention. He just doesn’t get it. Probably anger management problem + some paranoia.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
speaking of alpha dogs
i have never gotten that from molina. number one on the team, though, is carp, then apu, and then, from last year, likely derosa. (holliday is not, imo, and tulowitzki is, going back)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
You need to go to spring training then
he’s the leader during drills, the young guys listen to what he has to say, he’s out barking orders during infield practice. He leads by example more than anything else during the season and reserves most of his leadership for the clubhouse, where even Albert defers to him quite a bit during clubhouse disputes, at least from what I’ve read.
I think that Carpenter is a leader, but more of the pitching staff — I’m just not sure he sets the tone all that much for the everyday guys, but I could be wrong.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
you are assuming alot
about my past whereabouts in that statement.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I'm assuming you haven't been to spring training
because you said you “haven’t seen Molina in a leadership role”. I’ve been there twice: In 2007 and in 2009 and saw the same things both times.
If you’ve been to spring training and haven’t seen this than you AREN’T LOOKING.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
poor use of quotations
because i never said that.
barking orders – that’s kind of what catchers do, like part of their jobs.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Do all catchers
- …solicit advice to rookie infielders, pitchers, and outfielders?
- …noodle the best player in the game for his entire live hitting session because he can’t hit a homer?
- …have a reputation as a “take no shit” guy among the non-roster invitees?
Open your eyes and ears and listen to what the other guys in the clubhouse think of Molina — they have a much better idea than you do, I’m sure of it.
speaking of alpha dogs
i have never gotten that from molina.
Alpha Dogs = Leadership Role. That’s what “Alpha Dogs” are. For Pete’s Sake……
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
your definition of alpha dog
differs from mine – leadership is only one component in mine. on many teams you see “team leaders” who are not “alpha dogs”, for pete’s sake.
so yadi picks a little on rookies and non-roster invitees – he’s a nice guy, likes to mess around, like with his good buddy albert.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I guess I wouldn't mind Beltre for 3/30 or something
that’s crazy money for DeRo. I assumed 2/16 or something would do it for him.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
It also doesn't help that there have been questions
surrounding his age for awhile.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
ummm, so did andruw jones
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yes, me too
although his shitty OBPs concern me a bit.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
wow, i do not see our farm system
as the second worst in the majors…i know it isnt the best but i was thinking more around 20-23 range…i dont keep up with other systems as closely as ours but that seems a little extreme. Its a hell of a lot better than the Jimmy Journell/John Gall years…Im curious if AZ, erik and the gang see it same way as SI does.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
I think the issue is that it's at its lowest ebb
we had what looks like a decent draft next year, several players from which will be on the radar big time in 2010, and we’ve also got a ton of picks next year (potentially 2 first rounders and 3 supplementals, if we don’t re-sign any of our arby guys) so we should re-stock pretty quickly. I’d start to worry if we’re still in this sort of shape in 2 years’ time.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
I don't get how...
Walrus, Perez, Todd, Mortenson, and Peterson make the difference between a #29 system and a top-10 system, which is where I thought we were. I guess DJ taking a step back hurt too.
MB for LF in 2010!
Colby Rasmus, Jason Motte and Mitchell Boggs (in particular) aren't prospects any more
that’s a big part of it. So you’ve lost 2-3 A-grade guys (Rasmus, Wallace and maybe Perez, if you buy into him), a couple of solid Bs (Todd, Perez, maybe Boggs) and some guys in the B-C category (Mort, Petersen, Motte), and your other potential A from last year (Jones) has had a mediocre year. All we’ve replaced that with is a new B level guy (Descalso) and Shelby Miller.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
who? oh, Boromir.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Boomhauer?
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
I think lots of vowels make that hard on the meme drunk-test
ironically.
i project it will only catch on if Colby hits a jack and there’s a spontaneous burst of BOOM hauer.
but since I just projected it, it won’t be spontaneous anymore…
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I guess it's not really a meme if I'm the only one doing it :)
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
unless all your multiple personalities are doing it
then it could be a chorus.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
we'll find out when he hits his first homerun next year
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 10, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
We weren't a top 10 system last year
I think we were #12 or #13 in BA’s ranking last year, although I could be wrong.
We then graduated Rasmus and Motte to the majors, and traded Wallace, Mortenson, Todd, and Perez. That’s 6 of our top 12 prospects out of the system — it had to take a pretty significant hit.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
minor differences
excuse the pun, but i wonder what the real differences are between, say, #29 and #23. I’d say it’s pretty slim. All it takes is somebody thinking jaime garcia will do fine recovering from injury or that craig is slightly better with a glove than people give him credit for (i am NOT actually saying that) and your system is suddently #25 instead of #29.
I think it’s more valuable in a looser sense that you have top tier systems, middle tier, and lower tier. a couple injuries will shuffle the order around, but it won’t cripple a stacked system and one good breakout won’t propel a bad one into the top rung.
agreed
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 4, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
JAIME GARCIA
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
also how well a team
pr’s their guys. if craig were in the bosox org he’d be the second coming…
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
It's bad
but 29 is low, imo. I think there’s an argument that the Cardinals are in the bottom 5, however. There are interesting prospects but few who project as regulars and, outside of Garcia, no one that is close to the majors and projects as an impact talent.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Agreed
Aside from a few pet prospects, the boxscores this year were utterly depressing. There is some promising talent at the lower levels but even they are a tad on the old side.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2009 1:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Don't dredge up memories of the 2009 DFRs, HL.
I’m going to start having flashbacks and curl up in the fetal position underneath my desk.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 4, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
HL lives!
Several posters have recently commented on your absence.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
Its a pain
Checking 700 comment threads on a blackberry since there is no shading of new posts nor auto-update.
I’m rarely home enough to be on the computer anymore. When I am home, I’m too busy watching MLB Network in HD. I think those Baseball Season shows should be 2 hrs long and more in-depth. Between that and the ASG marathon, my free time has been cooked.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 4, 2009 2:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
MLB Network is getting me through this winter
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
Anyone think Young-Jason Giambi looks like Steve Zahn???
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Ah!
That is startling.
I mean Giambi’s I’m-going-to-eat-your-soul look.
by arch support on Dec 4, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
giambi still has the same look
it’s just that souls are obviously very filling
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Dec 5, 2009 1:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Giambi is from Alaska?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
you can play "day games"
in the middle of the night
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
My second thought was "yeah, he does look like Steve Zahn!"
My first thought was “HFS, that’s a young Jason Giambi???”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Is it just me
or does Giambi’s head look abnormally large in that picture? Maybe that’s why he was on the juice — he was tired of looking like a bobblehead or a “Big Head” player from NBA Jam…
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
OH MY!!!
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
HE'S ON FIRE!!
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
GRABS THE REBOUND!!!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2009 4:54 AM EST up reply actions
I fucking love that game
if I could find an arcade version of that floating out there for cheap I’d buy that and never make it out of my basement for the next 4 months.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
there's a place in north carolina that fixes them up & sells them
last i checked it was around $500 bucks. i really want the T2 Judgment Day arcade one & it’s around $1000
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
website?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
they have an ebay store, that's where i saw it
i’m sorry i forget what their name is, i just know they are on ebay
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
I googled and found them
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
BASELINE LEANER!
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Dec 4, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
PUTS UP A BRICK!!!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 6, 2009 4:55 AM EST up reply actions
That's a perfectly legitimate reason.
I would be okay with that reason.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I just hacked my wii over turkey break.
The NES, SNES emulators brought back warm, fuzzy memories. Specifically, Zelda II NES-style, and NBA Jam -Tourney edition for SNES. And the Metroid games never get old.
Zelda 2 for NES may be the most underrated game ever
Super Mario World for SNES is my favorite video game of all time
And, in a related story, this week marked the 5,000th performance of the Broadway musical "Cats." It also marked the 5,000th time a guy turned to his wife and said, "What the hell is this?"
Yeah
Zelda II was a good game, it just suffered from being named “Legend of Zelda” instead of something else. If it had been a separate franchise I think it could have been a big hit.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
NAIL IN THE COFFIN!
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~