You've got to check out BCB
by akaitori on Dec 18, 2009 5:08 PM EST
Email
Print
The Bradley for Silva swap is drawing hilarious reviews over at BCB. As one poster commented if possible Jim Hendry made the team worse even by subtracting Milton. The consensus is not only did the trade weaken an already overprice and anemic lineup, it worsened the pitching staff by adding quite possibly the worst pitcher in the game - for two years. Does one's heart good to see such. Best of all the Cubs have two head-cases named "Carlos."
134 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Silva is awful.
I live in Seattle and watch the M’s all the time. He’s awful, awful, awful. I love how the M’s are slowly ridding themselves of Bavasi’s mistakes.
On with the (good) youth movement!
Where in Seattle? Good to have a fellow VEB voice in the neighborhood
also interesting to hear the Seattle media gloat about adding Bradley. Maybe the baseball equivalent of St Helen’s eruption. . . from Magnolia
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
when did you move state side?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
This past summer. Not sure how long, however. You have to have lived in Asia to appreicate it. . .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
oh yeah i rememeber you saying you were visiting back in the summer
i didn’t think you made it permanent though
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Capitol Hill
Whereabouts are you?
I think they have a right to be happy, but it’s definitely funny to see the stark difference between that and the Chicago media from last summer. The M’s needed to get rid of Silva, though, and to actually get talent — let alone the type of talent they were searching for — in return is a pretty good deal. At this point, they can DFA him if he’s a headcase, and they won’t be losing much.
On with the (good) youth movement!
yeah, this is a total win for seattle
I also get the feeling that playing in a league in which he’s raked before, for a team with a DH spot, in a relatively low-pressure environment, is just what he needs.
I think I’m moving towards the opinion that Jack Z is the best GM in baseball. He seriously hasn’t put a foot wrong so far.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 20, 2009 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the response. Did you see the Times praise of Bradley today? Swell guy according to the locals.
I live in Magnolia. Contact me if you care to at Gil_Mueller@hotmail.com
Best
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
No, but I read Stone's pretty positive article the other day.
Again, I think it’s a good move for the M’s.
And thanks, I’ll try to remember to hit you up when the season comes around. I know the Central plays the AL West this year; hopefully the Cards will be in town.
On with the (good) youth movement!
And what am I?
Chopped liver?
"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5
"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.
by Tudor's Electric Fan on Jan 2, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
I knew that was coming...
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Nice to see someone using douchenozzle...
Shows a high content of character in my book.
"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson
In the immortal words of Dr King:
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the proportion of their rhetoric which includes the term “douchenozzle”.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 21, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Ah yes.
The not quite as famous “I have a dream, 2”, delivered at the deli south of the Mall.
by arch support on Dec 29, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Cubs fans are idiots
They bitch and whine on just about everything. Maybe it’s the fact that they think every year is their year to win the World Series, only to be bitterly disappointed later on. Maybe it’s the fact that they don’t like Hendry, which is probably true. But whining over Bradley, who was a distraction and not worth the 3 year, $30M contract they signed him to this offseason? If I were a Cubs fan, I’d be ecstatic to get rid of that guy. Then again, I can see why they’d be hatin’ on Silva…
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Cubs fans can bitch about what they got for Bradley
and then turn those pitchforks around and stab themselves in the throat. They’re the ones that put their own team in a bad position. The constant bitching and moaning about him made it impossible for Chicago to get anything fair in trade for him, so tough shit, Cubs fans — perhaps if you’d be a little nicer to your players, that would help you get fair value for them.
FWIW, I don’t hear near the pissing and moaning about Soriano, who played worse than Milton last year and is owed more than Bradley over the next 2 years.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
there's something so beautiful
about the cubs paying $17MM for for -0.7 WAR and a .303 OBP
and yeah, bradley was worth about twice as much soriano for about half the price. he was one of the better producers on the team
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Dec 20, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
man, their main writer, al,
is just a bucket of fail. he’s arguing that it’s a good trade, because the karros deal looked but ended up being all right
i also tried to convince them to sign ankiel to a 3/30
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Dec 20, 2009 12:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
ankiel is a plus on club chemistry
his jerseys sell so well
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 20, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
i know!
which seems to be their priority instead of good baseball players, so he’s a good fit. plus a player i like gets some money. win-win
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
As are his roided innards . . .Bradley hit about 250 in a hitter-friendly park. Imagine what he'll do at Safeco. I think the life expectancy of the Seattle Moose went down with the MB addition. When Bradley flails away at the Mendoza line . . .
. . . the Moose will feel the pain. .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
what do you have against moose
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
bradley's OBP
.378
makes that .250 BA a little irrelevant
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Ya know what's funny?
It turns out that Bradley’s 2009 season was a lot worse than his few previous years. That suggests that he will regress and hit a lot better next year!
by vivaelpujols on Dec 20, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
lol
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
exactly
I have been trying to convince cubs fans of this, that their best bet is to just keep him and work with his attitude, but they are all convinced he is the worst person in the world and that he has no place in chicago, so what do they get, they get f’n Carlos Silva
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 20, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
You can't always get what you want.
You can’t always get what you want.
But if you try sometime
You just might find
You get an albatross contract with an overweight barely replacement-level soft-tosser.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 21, 2009 6:12 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
you're reaching, Monk
but I rec’d anyway
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 21, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
annnnd green
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Bradley's a really good hitter, dude
always has been. I personally didn’t want him, unlike some of the other posters here, but seriously, he’s a better hitter than every free agent on the market this year except Holliday and Bay (and maybe Cust, at a push). His career numbers are far more predictive than what he did in 400-odd PAs in a season in which he had major personal issues.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 21, 2009 6:11 AM EST up reply actions
I'd say he's had a problem just about every year, really
he has been a major malcontent. But the dude can hit. Even last year he was one of the more productive Cubbies at the plate.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 21, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Bradley has major personal issues all the time...
He’s been with 8 teams (I think). He choked his pregnant girlfriend and had a host of other anger management “issues” for which he has sought treatment (and supposedly still is).
How do you project Khalil Green? Do you just say “I think he’ll get over his personal issues” or do you discount his performance? Doesn’t it have to be the latter?
Milton Bradley is a good hitter when he’s not in crazyland. But, of course, that’s the problem: he’s crazy. Hendry was stupid (among other reasons) for signing that nutcase to a three year deal in the first place, but that was a bigger error than trading him for cash and Silva.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 21, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
bradleyis still a good hitter when he's crazy
kaheel is not a good hitter when he’s elf-mutilating
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
good god, save the elves! i had no idea khalil was a legolas-hater!
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
elficide
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 22, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, what prophetjohn said
Bradley hits well. He’s crazy. The two are not mutually exclusive. He’s a good hitter AND a nutjob pretty much everywhere he plays.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 21, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I had not heard this one before
Cubs teammates were said to have broken into applause when general manager Jim Hendry informed them in September that Bradley had been suspended for the remainder of the season.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/larrystone/2010551170_stone20.html
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Probably true
When your whole team sucks except for a couple of guys, and your fanbase turns on you, it’s easier to just find one scapegoat and pile it on that guy, especially if it’s a guy you don’t particularly like.
Also, if that’s the case, that doesn’t say much for the Cub’s as a team. I see no way, NO FUCKING WAY, that would happen in a TLR/Albert/Yadi/Carpenter clubhouse. Absolutely no way. You’re on a team, you support your teammates all the way down the line. Applauding their suspension, in the middle of September after your team has essentially been mailing it in for two months, is pure bush league bullshit.
Just another reason why we will always be classier and have more success than those in Wrigleyville.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
by fourstick on Dec 20, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
Also
perhaps somewhat ironically (from one of our more Sabr-aware posters) this is one of the most eloquent defenses of the notion that “team chemistry matters” that I’ve read. Personally, I believe (despite the difficulty in quantifying it) that it really does.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 21, 2009 6:15 AM EST up reply actions
I think it matters
but only to an extent, and as long as you have good clubhouse leadership from both players and coaches, it really doesn’t matter who ends up in the clubhouse. Which is why I believe that St. Louis is one place that Bradley could be a productive player — I just don’t see LaRussa or our players in leadership roles putting up with his garbage. You show up, you do your job, you don’t bitch about it, and we’ll protect you from the press as much as we can so you don’t make a fool out of yourself. Shit, we’re bringing back the media’s biggest whipping boy of the last 10 years as our hitting coach, that will probably overshadow Milton Bradley all by itself, lol.
My problem is that I’ve always considered Derrek Lee to be a classy guy — but if this is going on in his clubhouse, I’ve lost a lot of respect for him.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Pride goeth before the fall.
I’m not being negative; just noting that no state is permanent.
by arch support on Dec 29, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not being prideful
Just stating that our fans and organization are classier than their fans and organization.
If Matt Holliday had his nutshot in a Cub uniform, there’s no effing way they have a chance to sign him this offseason — their fans would have run him out of town on a rail and then blown up the ball in some crazy scheme to exorcise the demons.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I don't think you were being unfair.
I just cringed when I read the “always” qualifier.
You’ve got a point regarding the Cubs vis. Holliday thing; not something I had thought of.
My point is unless baseball ends tomorrow, there are no guarantees that the Cards and their fans will go down in history as a more classy organization than the Cubs. As of 1908, I bet the Cubs and their fans thought they were more classy than their STL counterparts; and they were probably right.
I just feel like Cards fans have let the constant label of “best fans in baseball” go to their heads.
by arch support on Dec 30, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, very true
I just think that it’s a little hard to overcome who you are, especially after 100+ years of futility. I’ve had numerous Cub fans tell me that they’d be satisfied for life if the Cubs could just win the World Series. Seems to me I heard this from a bunch of Red Sox fans circa 2003 and they were back to bitching again as early as 2005.
I think the loathing has actually become a part of being a Cubs fan, for one, and for two, it’s gotten much, much worse since they expanded payroll while both the Red Sox and White Sox got off the schnide.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Bradley's track record speaks for itself. I'm less sure of the Cards' club house issues and foibles.
Recall that the team unloaded Gary Templeton for Ozzie, and the sentiment was the Pads got the best of it. So, too, the Broglio for Brock swap. Ernie spent a lot of time in Gaslight Square, and that did not sit well with management. Hernandez was jettisoned for nasal allergies. Would Bradley truly be welcome in St Louis?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Not one of the players you just mentioned
have been in a TLR/MANG/Carp clubhouse. I don’t know what bearing they have here.
* is an Asshat
Different owners, too.
Of course, there was that Steve Kline bird-flipping incident. But that was directed at Tony, not fans.
Now with extra feisty!
Without Tony LaRussa (and to a lesser extent, Bobby Cox)
Steve Kline never has a job at the big league level. LOOGY’s didn’t exist prior to the late 80’s.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
It is relevant
because Kline should know his role and shut his mouth. He’s a LOOGY, which means he may warm up a couple of different times in the span of the game and not get put into the game because we:
- Make the third out.
- Get a double play to erase the threat.
- A different pinch hitter is used instead of the one Tony thought was going to be used.
In the game in question, all three of these situations occurred at times when Kline was warming up. The problem here is that Kline never considered himself a LOOGY, and he was at that point in his career. Rick White was much better against righties, and Izzy was the closer and 8th inning fireman.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Kline
was pissed because Tony kept getting him up in the bullpen in then not bringing him into the game. Yet, that’s exactly what his role is — to warm up in situations where a left might be needed and then if he’s not, sit back down. Ray King understood this, so do Al Reyes and Trever Miller, because they know that it’s their role. Kline never accepted this fact, which is what caused him so much frustration — and he took it out on Tony.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
It would be akin to
a pinch hitter flipping his manager the bird after putting him in the on-deck circle three times on one game, then pulling him back when a pitching change is made and going with a better matchup.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
yes, you are correct
I mixed up my chubby relief pitchers with the surname Reyes…
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
agreed
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 22, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
What is this supposed to mean?
That Ken Dayley was a LOOGY? Considering that he faced about 3 times as many RHH in his career than LHH and that he wasn’t ever a Lefty One Out GuY, as the acronym indicates, I’m not sure what you mean.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
scott rolen
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Dec 21, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
The constant has been the owners' conjectural anxiety over the fans' reaction to miscreants - Roid Birds being a notable exception
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
The differences here
are ample:
- Broglio’s off field problems began to rear their ugly head on the field, and ended up submarining his career after the trade. I firmly believe this was a trade to get Lou Brock, however, as the Cardinal brass saw him as a valuable player that wasn’t being utilized properly.
- Templeton was a serial malcontent who had great offensive talent and poor defensive talent. Whitey didn’t want him around, mainly because he wasn’t a good defender and was getting worse, and saw Ozzie as the perfect player for the club that he was trying to build: great defense, lots of SB’s and putting guys in motion, good pitching in the cavernous Busch II of the 80’s. Look at the parks that we played in during the 80’s and you can see why Whitey didn’t want Templeton.
- “Nasal Allergies”. That’s a nice way of putting it. Again, different ownership, different time, different circumstances, different manager. All those things are different. Had he not had some character issues, he fit well into Whitey’s grand master plan. He didn’t like Whitey and Whitey didn’t like him — and Whitey didn’t fuck around either. You’re not with the club? C-ya buddy.
- None of these situations have happened during the TLR era. None. The only one you could point to would be the Rolen trade, and that’s much more complicated.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
how do you feel about
the handling of Khalil Greene this season and the handling of Spiezio a couple years back? These were a couple of very difficult situations that didn’t result in the Cardinals shipping the guys out of town, but they fit with the argument.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I thought the Greene situation was handled very well by both the club and by Greene himself.
The kid has some personal issues, and the team let him take care of them while still allowing him the opportunity to use team facilities. They could have cut him loose and paid him his $6M and said sayonara, but they didn’t, and I think that shows some character on the part of the team.
Handling of Spiezio? The guy had a drinking and drugs problem. He got himself into trouble, and the team decided that his services were no longer needed — they did end up paying him his salary for that season, even though they probably didn’t have to and would have won an injunction to keep that money. I don’t consider Spiezio being “handled” by the team — the situation was dealt with internally and I think in ended up the best for all parties involved. Keep in mind, this was not the first time that he’d had a scrape with the law due to these issues. The team handled the situation professionally, imo. How well do you think the Cubs would have handled the Greene situation, assuming the “applause for suspension” is true? Not very well, I’d imagine.
Honestly, I don’t have problems with the way our front office handles these situations. They handled the Josh Hancock and Darryl Kile tragedies very, very well.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i agree on kaheel
it was well handled. but i think it was just as much to save face as it was to give respect to him and help him through a tough time. probably moreso the former. that was a roster spot that they sacrificed
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
True
but it’s not like it was going to be a long term roster problem. They really didn’t have anyone to replace him with on the 40-man roster, and we used his active roster spot on a 13th pitcher that didn’t throw for spans of a month at times during the season. I don’t really think it hurt the club all that much, and it certainly helped the individual a great deal.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i don't have the best perspective on the spiezio story, but it seemed clear that the club had let him
hang himself for most of the season. once i realized what was going on, MONTHS of reports of “scott spiezio has been held out of the lineup with flu-like symptoms” made sense. if it was going on that long and no one was addressing it, then i think the club probably should have done more sooner.
he really didn’t get any help (that i could see) or go on any hiatus that would allow him to get some rehab done until the end of the season.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
You don't know what the club did..
All those months. Just because they didn’t let the press or the fans in on it.
i don't know anything other than that he didn't go on the dl.
i would think that engaging anybody in serious substance abuse treatment would be inconsistent with playing baseball 20 days out of the month and traveling the country.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Ok
but had this played out like the Bradley situation, the club would have forced him into rehab (or to go on a crazed drug and alcohol binge) by letting the story loose in the press, suspending him for “conduct detrimental to the team”, and then releasing information that the players in the clubhouse applauded his suspension.
How is drug and alcohol abuse, as a disease, any different from anger management issues, (and possible undiagnosed bi-polar disorder), as a disease?
You can only do so much, as an employer, to put a person in a situation to help themselves. Some people just have to hit rock bottom before they can clean themselves up. I don’t know how you can handle this any differently if you’re the club. This is a good illustration of why I think our clubhouse can handle these players to a certain extent.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
no, they could just dl him for any reason (back pain, strained hammy, whatever), put him through rehab,
never tell anybody. if he refused to play ball with them by consenting to the DLing, then they might have to try something sterner.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
True
but he actually has to consent to going on the disabled list, as did Khalil Greene last year. He has to be diagnosed with some type of injury and actually consent to being DL’d.
Perhaps they tried this and he wasn’t having any of it. Do you then suspend him and let it play out in the media? Or do you do the right thing for the player as a teammate and try to help him through his issues? I choose the latter, unless it gets completely out of control to the point where he’s not a useful player anymore. He was a pretty useful guy for much of that season, so I don’t think it ever got to that point.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
it's an open question. i don't know exactly what happened.
i can imagine covering for him once or twice. if i pitched the phantom injury DL to him and he refused and THEN showed up too hungover to play? i’m not actually sure what the CBA would allow in this case, if it would get treated like a mental or physical illness.
if i could forcibly DL him, i would. if i had to suspend him and send him to treatment, i would. i would release a restrained, forthright press release saying, ‘scott has shown up X times this year unable to play. based on his appearance at the time, we are concerned that he has a problem with substance abuse. we think he needs to get clean before he rejoins the team. he is suspended indefinitely pending completion of a stint in rehab.’ what’s the media angle on a full disclosure press release, especially for a supersub? there’s no legs on a full disclosure. one, two articles saying scott spiezio suspended. it would run for two days and be done; where do you go with that story? “scott spiezio still suspended, day 3”?. scott spiezio is not a-rod.
i don’t see how putting him in the clubhouse (not exactly a home for monks) and in hotel rooms would be doing the right thing for him. the right thing for him was to get him clean. playing baseball is not a form of treatment. being with a traveling professional sports team sounds like a terrible way to stay clean.
fwiw – scott spiezio was worth 0.4 WAR in 2007, which was a lost season anyway. i think losing him midseason would have had minimal impact.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
i don’t see how putting him in the clubhouse (not exactly a home for monks)
I know, I know. It’s a damn shame.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 22, 2009 5:58 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe send him to rehab on Mt. Athos. This is a holy mountain in Northern Greece reserved from monks to clear their heads. . .
. . . and grow their beards. Having been there once the latter goal is obtained more frequently than the former.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
You're kidding right?
what’s the media angle on a full disclosure press release, especially for a supersub? there’s no legs on a full disclosure. one, two articles saying scott spiezio suspended. it would run for two days and be done; where do you go with that story? "scott spiezio still suspended, day 3"?. scott spiezio is not a-rod.
David Freese gets pulled over for a DUI, and it’s all over the web and print in St. Louis for two straight weeks. David Freese! People aren’t showing up to the ballpark with David Freese hairdo’s or David Freese facial hair on them are they? We’re talking about a guy that hardly anyone knows — yet the media ran with that story.
No legs? Hardly. That story has tons of legs:
- When did the team know it?
- Why wasn’t something done before this?
- How is this related to the Hancock incident? Did he get Josh loaded before he drove home?
- Is this a team problem or a personal issue, and if it’s a personal issue then why is the team getting involved?
In this day and age, Strauss would be tweeting about this shit at midnight, because everything is newsworthy.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
the freese story is a counter-example.
freese’s story has legs because things keep dribbling out – what his BAC was, the prior suspended sentence for DUI, etc. and i’ve seen exactly three stories in the PD – one was the initial announcement, one the BAC story, and then the most recent revelation of his prior DUI.
even if it caused bad press, you still have to clean house. what if scott had gotten in an accident after 5 times showing up with “flu-like symptoms”? what if he’d hurt himself or somebody else? after josh, there’d be a hell of a media storm then. i’d rather get it in the open and deal with the problem – and any attendant negative press – rather than conceal it for most of a season.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
You could point to the alcohol abuse problem that has been seeping into the public
the last few years. it might not be team-related, but there’s certainly been a hell of a lot of smoke, and inferring a fire isn’t completely crazy.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
No, it's not
That’s why I think it was smart for the club to ban alcohol in the clubhouse. If guys want to drink, they drink on their own time and they make it a personal decision to do so — there is no “team” pressure in the clubhouse to carouse with members of the team or to feel left out because you have a drinking problem, are treating it, and can’t participate.
The violations related to this team pale in comparison to some of the stuff that goes on in the NBA and NFL.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
The violations related to this team pale in comparison to some of the stuff that goes on in the NBA and NFL.
…which of course doesn’t justify the actions.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
No it doesn't, that's true.
The club also shouldn’t be held responsible for the actions of players who are on personal time and get into trouble for issues not related to work.
I certainly don’t hold the Tennessee Titans responsible for Pacman Jones’ legal issues or the Carolina Panthers responsible for Rae Carruth murdering his pregnant girlfriend and then hiding in the trunk of a car. Are they a black mark? Hell yes! But stating that it’s the organizations responsibility to babysit grown men on their own personal time, or that they create an environment where these things take place off the field is a really ludicrous assessment.
Holding the Cardinals responsible, as an organization, for personal decisions to drink and drive (Spiezio, Hancock, LaRussa, and Freese) is just poor form.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
by fourstick on Dec 21, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Holding the Cardinals responsible, as an organization, for personal decisions to drink and drive (Spiezio, Hancock, LaRussa, and Freese) is just poor form.
Holding the Cardinals responsible, as an organization, for personal decisions to drink and drive (Spiezio, Hancock, LaRussa, and Freese) is just poor form.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I don't... uh.... I can't..... um........ what?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 21, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
Damnit.
Here’s the back story. I reply failed and decided to delete my reply fail. Before I did so I thought I copied my text so I didn’t have to retype it (I’m lazy). Obviously, that did not happen.
It should read: “I agree, provided the Cardinals aren’t cultivating a culture of recklessness within the clubhouse either tacitly or accidentally.”
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Like I said above,
you can’t necessarily say anything—there is no definitive evidence, but there is certaily a whole lot of indirect evidence, including a player DYING.
I can’t speak to what the team did in response, I’m not in the clubhouse. If they just banned alcohol from the clubhouse, that is a woefully inadequate response to what happened. And the Freese thing should be somewhat alarming.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Not all of these are the same
Sometimes you can’t hold a team directly responsible. But, when there’s what looks like a pattern starting to emerge (Oakland A’s and steroids in the 90’s?) , you have to question whether the club as a whole is doing something – or not doing something – that is allowing a certain culture to exist. At this point, there’ve been enough alcohol-related troubles with the Cards that the club OUGHT to be going the extra mile to prevent the next one.
I’d also say that when individual players do some whack-ass thing that puts the team in a bad light, you can’t automatically let the team totally off the hook. The teams handing Lawrence Phillips a contract knew darn well they had a loose cannon – yeah, they can’t predict exactly which transgressions he’ll commit while on their payroll, but they know darn well they’ll probably be paying a guy with criminal behavior.
slight off-topic
I’m not very conversant with blood alcohol levels. The level freese had (erm, 2.32 or something?), was that “just over the limit” or “stinking drunk”? I think that’s somewhat relevant, in his case.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 22, 2009 6:00 AM EST up reply actions
Freese is dead?!? ZOMG!!!
anyway, its a percentage. .232, if that’s what it really was, is pretty stinking drunk. The medical consensus is that somewhere between .4 and .5 is coma and organ shutdown range (that sounds pleasant), so .232 is quite hammered. FYI, 2.32 is so past dead its not even funny.
I assumed it was mass/volume actually
anyways, I don’t know what the precise number is, so that isn’t very helpful.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 22, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
yeah
i’ve checked, it was .232. So he was pretty plastered. Yuck.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 22, 2009 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
14 beers in an hour, or 2.5 bottles of wine
for a 220 lb man would result in a .23 BAC, according to www.intox.com. Subtract .01 every 40 minutes and add .015 for each additional beer, assuming he was drinking for more than an hour before leaving.
That’s awesome, in a “I’m not completely sure I could do that” kind of way.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
I'm thinking of what that is relative
to a power hour and/or a century club. A .23 BAC by that measurement is a pretty daunting task.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
that is unbelievable
there is no way I could drink close to that much. Freese must’ve been barely able to stand.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 28, 2009 5:19 AM EST up reply actions
you don't have to have "a culture"
to make twenty-somethings drink. I think all of this is a little overblown.
spiezio thought he was a rock star.
he was crazy enough to be an exception to any rule. Wasn’t that half the reason we loved him?
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
So the club
should just shy away from anyone that’s ever been involved in PED’s, drugs, drunk driving, alcohol related incidents, and other forms of so called “criminal behavior” because it might shed a bad light?
What are we, a team full of saints? For Pete’s sake — this entire thread has gone completely off the rails.
People make mistakes. God knows that I have. Why should people be punished for their entire lives for one mistake? Making mistakes is how you learn. Some people don’t learn from mistakes, and that’s a problem…but it’s a PERSONAL PROBLEM.
Again, the club is not responsible for personal behavior. Had David Freese been coming from a Cardinals function and then was pulled over for driving while stinking drunk, that’s another matter. I just don’t understand where people get off criticizing the team. Do you think that other teams’ players don’t go out and have beers after games? We’re talking about 3-4 incidents over a period of 4 years, with only one of them actually happening during the baseball season.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
that's a stupid way to run a club
We’ll insure against injury but they can’t even put together a decent substance abuse program so their MILLION DOLLAR PLAYERS don’t wrap themselves around a guardrail?
If you’re against that, why can’t players learn to fly or ride motorcycles or go snowboarding? Yet the chances of them dying after drinking and driving are statistically so much higher than if they do those activities. Where is the frickin’ logic?
Other teams do not have that many incidents in that many years. They probably don’t even cover up that many incidents. The Cardinals, if they haven’t already, are sticking out into the deep blue sky of statistical significance.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 22, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
not to mention
the one thing ballplayers do hundreds of times a year is go driving in the middle of the night. unless they take public transportation or walk, they kind of have to.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 22, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
If you’re against that, why can’t players learn to fly
Cory Lidle wonders the same thing.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 22, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Is it written into their contract that they can't?
Or do they just not do it because it’s a highly risky behavior. Cory Lidle had a little plane incident if I remember correctly, and there are tons of players who ride motorcycles — only a few of them were stupid enough to do it after signing a contractual agreement stating that they wouldn’t do it (Jeff Kent).
Kobe Bryant rides a $50,000 crotch rocket to Lakers’ games sometimes. As a Laker fan, this horrifies me because I’ve ridden a crotch rocket in L.A. traffic, but it’s his decision, not mine, and the team is apparently ok with it.
Are you going to make it a contractual obligation to not have a misdemeanor traffic violation (which is what a DUI is in the state of Missouri)? That any morally questionably behavior will result in contract termination? That’s way over the line, and will impact the free agents you are able to sign and keep.
We’ll insure against injury but they can’t even put together a decent substance abuse program so their MILLION DOLLAR PLAYERS don’t wrap themselves around a guardrail?
Have you ever tried to get someone who abuses drugs or alcohol into a substance abuse program? Ever? It’s not like it is on TV. The only show I’ve seen come close to how it actually is would be Rescue Me. It’s an ugly, drawn out, hurtful, hateful process, and only really works when those closest to that person stage the intervention. Just because they organization sits you down in a room and says “Scott, you have a drug and alcohol problem and you need help. We’re going to put you in a program”, that doesn’t mean he has to do it. He’s much more likely to get clean if the intervention is staged by friends and family who care about him and are close to him. Not only that, once you get them in the process, you have to keep them there AND keep the clean afterwards. Which is probably more difficult than getting them to admit that they have a problem in the first place.
I think that you’re blowing much of this out of proportion. These are grown ass men, and should be treated as such.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think it should be included in the contracts of all MLBers, but it won't be
especially in the case of a second DUI. If you have a second one, you should be required to enter a treatment program, or risk having contract voided.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
You're required to enter a treatment program
in most states after a DUI anyway, so it would just be redundant.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Yeah, been there, done that
I mean a real treatment program. Millions of dollars worth of contracts usually, and more important things are at risk here. I really think that both sides should see this as a good thing. I doubt it would ever happen, but it would be great on so many levels if MLB would pull their head out of their asses on issues like this.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Again, though, and I've pointed this out before...
you can’t really force them into a “real” treatment program because you don’t have the law to back it up, and a lot of states have statutes that forbid even next of kin from doing so.
When DUI violators are put into a treatment program it’s still a choice: that or jail. Most people choose the treatment program, for obvious reasons. I just think you have to let the law do what the law does, while providing treatment options to players.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
and also
that wasn’t one mistake.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 22, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
i don't like the notion that the club is somehow ephemerally responsible for all substance abuse.
i do think that it’s a legit criticism that the club needs to have a more agressive substance abuse policy, so that people aren’t coming to work drunk, high or hungover. i don’t think any of the above are conventionally tolerated at most workplaces.
i don’t want us to disassociate ourselves from anybody who has a tinge of substance abuse to them; i want us to make sure they get treated and get clean.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
Freese played 17 games with the big club.
If he picked up his drinking habits in 2 weeks with the club I’d be surprised. Now, I have no idea what the atmosphere is down on the farm, but I think it’s insane to hold the Cardinals responsible for something that basically a temp did.
* is an Asshat
by RiverRat on Dec 22, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Amen to that
Agree 100%.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Farm system prefers drugs to alcohol
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
heh
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Dec 22, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
isn't alcohol a drug?
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 22, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
Cogent reply - my compliments
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Sorry that was to Fourstick way up the thread. .
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
it's okay
that’s why we have the up button
my life was changed the day i realized this
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You Never Know
What a change of scenery can do for a fellow. Bradley will probably do well for Seattle. Silva will probably do well for the Cubs. Guys like Weaver & Lohse had crap numbers before coming to the Cards. Mileage was gotten out of those guys when given another chance. Same will probably hold true for Bradley and Silva.
One day, the dream will come true.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- The Cardinals Hall of Fame can now be found at Bill Clinton’s library in Arkansas (Huh?)
- Will Bryce Harper start the season with the Nationals?
- Mitch Mustain puts football behind him, signs reported rookie deal with White Sox
- Robinson Cano and Denzel Washington face off in Jay Leno’s Yankees trivia contest
- Shane Victorino lands role on ‘Hawaii Five-0′
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
