Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Super Bowl XLVI: Eli Manning And The Meaning Of 'Elite'

Excerpt: Evaluating Baseball's Managers on Tony La Russa

What's a guy have to do to get on this cover?

A week and a half ago we did a mini-review of what Chris Jaffe's forthcoming Evaluating Baseball's Managers had to say about Cardinals managers. Now, the long-promised excerpt: a look at our very own Tony La Russa's managerial career.

Excerpt housework: the tendencies database Jaffe refers to is defined and discussed at this link; the book covers the years 1876-2008. In the interest of full disclosure, I have received no compensation or freebies on the occasion of publishing this excerpt, although I do have a copy of these exact words in .doc format.

Blog housework: Some reasoned thoughts about the Matt Holliday discussion when I'm feeling reasoned about it, or as news breaks. To be brief: I would love to have Matt Holliday, who represents the best-case scenario for the 2010 Cardinals, but if eight years—eight years! He will be 37! I will be 30! Rylee Rasmus will be eight!—and $128 million doesn't do it for him I can't imagine he'll find any welcoming market except New York.

I can't think of many players who are Ten Year guys—more than seven seems like a commitment the Cardinals should be making exclusively to players with Musial-derived nicknames.

Star-divide

Evaluating Baseball's Managers — Tony La Russa

by Chris Jaffe

Tony La Russa

W/L Record: 2,461-2,146 (.534)

Birnbaum Database: +1,012 runs

Individual Hitters: +240 runs

Individual Pitchers: +455 runs

Pythagenpat Difference: +138 runs

Team Offense: +297 runs

Team Defense: -118 runs

Team Characteristics: LaRussa likes the decision-making parts of the game - pinch hitters, bringing in relievers, bunting, stealing bases. However, he avoids intentional walks. His teams are pretty well rounded as they either score above average in nearly all the categories in the Birnbaum Database, or at least fare only slightly worse than a typical team.

Appropriately for someone who finished law school and passed the bar exam, LaRussa has a reputation as one of baseball's smartest managers. The Tendencies Database can test that. For example, look at one part of the job - filling out the lineup card. Thanks to Retrosheet, information on batting orders exists for all teams in the last half-century. Based on that, one can see how LaRussa fares versus other skippers.

There are three main parts of any lineup. The top two slots of the order are supposed to get on base. After them, the team's best hitters are supposed to drive them in while batting in the heart of the order, generally slots three to six. Finally, the worst hitters usually end up at the bottom of the order, where they will collect fewer plate appearances. Baseball-Reference.com makes studying these Retrosheet-generated splits much easier by providing combined offensive data for these three groups for all teams.

On base percentage is the best metric to measure top of the order hitters because their main job is to get on base. Specifically, for reasons mentioned in last chapter's Sparky Anderson commentary, take the cumulative OBP of the two top slots and divide it by the team's overall OBP. For the remaining two sections, the stat of choice is tOPS+, a Baseball-Reference invention that compares the OPS for a given split compared to the team's overall OPS. If a team with an 800 OPS had an OPS of 1200 from the heart of its order, they would have a tOPS+ of 150 because the split was 50% better than the squad as a whole. For the middle of the order, a higher tOPS+ indicates the manager did a good job filling out his lineup card. A lower tOPS+ for the bottom of the order is desired because that means he made sure his worst hitters were in the appropriate slots. Put all three of these splits through the Tendencies Database, add the results together, and determine who is best at creating batting orders.

However, a snag affects this plan. Everyone puts their best hitters in the heart of the order. That is not the case in the top or bottom of the order as some managers put speedsters who cannot steal first in the leadoff slot or walk machines at the bottom of the order, but every manager treats the middle the same. Ranking tOPS+ for the 3-6 hitters simply determines which clubs had the most impressive offensive core. There is little reason to give someone credit for realizing Barry Bonds should not bat eighth.

That split tells us little about managers, but the others can be quite illuminating. Add them together and see who has done the best job with a pencil and empty lineup card. This is not a perfect system, but it works tolerably well.

Best job creating a batting order
Bill Virdon 1.455
Tony La Russa 1.511
Sparky Anderson 1.610
Red Schoendienst 1.612
Earl Weaver 1.663
John McNamara 1.663

Virdon bests LaRussa, but they both have a comfortable lead on anyone else.

Also, LaRussa has a pet strategy with his batting orders that further shows he knows what he is doing: batting the pitcher eighth. While this confounds baseball tradition, a study in The Book: Playing the Percentages in Baseball, Andy Dolphin, Mitchel Lichtman, and Tom Tango revealed that placing the pitcher eighth in the batting order creates runs for a team. Those researchers have some problems with LaRussa's lineups (they think the fourth- or fifth-best hitter belongs in the #3 hole, where LaRussa puts Mark McGwire and Albert Pujols) but they agree with his signature batting order maneuver.

Do not let his genius reputation fool you, though. At heart, Tony LaRussa is a redass. Normally people associate the term "redass" with a manager like Larry Bowa, who knows only one gear - full steam ahead, which can wear a team down. LaRussa performs an internal balancing act between his heart and head. In other words he continually fights an internal battle between the burning desire to push for victory in every game with the recognition of long-term interests. Essentially, he embodies a redass version of the serenity prayer - he has the desire to push for it every game, the willpower to hold back as needed, and the intelligence to know when to push and when to hold back. One story about LaRussa demonstrated the stress this inner war placed on him. In mid-2007, LaRussa told reporters he was not about to retire because there were still games "when you've got a five-run lead, when it's tense and I can't swallow. I've got a headache, and I'm afraid I'm going to throw up. You only feel this stuff because you're anxious about the outcome." That is what happens when a person continually reins himself in.

LaRussa wants his players to feel the same drive. If one lacks that passion, even if it is a star like Scott Rolen or J. D. Drew, LaRussa cannot abide him. He sent both packing, and has had as many feuds with players as any prominent manager in recent times. In dealing with a particular player these feuds may be shortsighted, but they send a message to the rest of the team. If Scott Rolen is not safe, everyone else knows they need to play relentlessly. This ensures LaRussa's teams give their maximum effort.

In this regard, a parallel exists between Tony LaRussa and Joe McCarthy. The former Yankees skipper also strongly emphasized proper conduct while possessing a deep desire to win. Even as a rookie skipper, McCarty dumped all-time great Pete Alexander for his approach to the game. Furthermore, McCarthy, like LaRussa, also experienced head-vs.-heart conflict. McCarthy handled it by drinking his way into alcoholism. More recently, authorities arrested LaRussa in early 2007 for driving while intoxicated. It is difficult to cope with the internal pressure for decades.

Nonetheless, both managers consistently had their teams play as well as possible. In 30 years, LaRussa ran only one last place team, while overseeing eleven first place squads. In fact, in full seasons his teams have had the best record in the league more times than they had losing records (seven to six). Such an achievement requires talented players, but it also demands a manager who handles them appropriately. LaRussa has done a good job finding the best roles for his players, making sure everyone knows their job, and performs their best.

The most striking example of LaRussa's ability to get the most out of his players occurred in Oakland, where he assembled the greatest bullpen in baseball history from 1988-90. In that three-year period, Oakland's relievers posted a combined ERA of 2.60. In contrast, the best single season ERA by any other AL relief unit in that span was 2.82 by the 1988 Brewers. The chart compares Oakland's bullpens to the rest of the AL in defense-independent stats walks, strikeouts, and home runs allowed from 1988-90. Oakland's domination is obvious.

 

Bullpens BB/9 K/9 HR/9
Oakland 3.04 6.51 0.52
The Rest 3.67 6.10 0.75

 This relief corps's performance was especially remarkable because its core members were poorly regarded prior to arriving in Oakland. The club had three bullpen mainstays in those years: Dennis Eckersley, Rick Honeycutt, and Gene Nelson. Both Eckersley and Honeycutt appeared to be washed up starters before LaRussa moved them to the bullpen. Honeycutt was so poorly thought of that Oakland acquired him for a player to be named later. Nelson previously played for LaRussa in Chicago, and had done adequately, but no more than that. The Sox shipped him along with another player to Oakland for a forgettable middle infielder. The A's augmented this bunch with more of the league's unwanted. Oakland swiped Joe Klink, who had a great year for them in 1990, from Minnesota for a minor league player-to-be-named-later. Mike Norris, a starter for Billy Martin in the early 1980s A's, was an internal reclamation project who also prospered in 1990. LaRussa converted Eric Plunk from a flop starter into a solid reliever.

With these castoffs, LaRussa constructed a bullpen that was not only spectacularly effective, but extremely influential. He used more specialized roles for his relief pitcher than had been common, subsequently affecting how other teams construct and utilize their bullpens. This opens up several thorny questions. Some contend that LaRussa's impact on contemporary bullpen usage is a mark against him. Specialization may have done more harm than good because it causes contemporary relief aces, nominally the best arms in the bullpen, to be used far less than the firemen of yore. However, one should not automatically assume that LaRussa was as influential in this area as conventional wisdom makes him out to be. As noted earlier in this chapter, Bobby Cox also helped create hyper-specialized relievers.

To examine the issue further, first one needs to tackle the issue of LaRussa's influence before assigning credit or blame. When the record is examined, the 1988-90 A's bullpen appears to have been a way-station between how relievers were used and how they have since been handled. Relief aces were already throwing fewer innings as managers like Cox reduced innings per appearance. For instance, whereas four closers threw over 100 innings in 1985 and five more did so in 1986, none tossed that many in 1987 - only three broke 90 innings. Still, the A's amplified this trend. Nothing breeds imitation like success and Oakland's glory run provided the most successful bullpen in baseball history. Innings per relief outing dropped by 20% in the AL from 1987-93. That was the sharpest reduction in league history, and it came when LaRussa's bullpen was at its height. Still, reliever roles were not as starkly defined then as they later became. Eckersley entered the game in the eighth inning twenty times a year from 1988 to 1990, far more than a present day closer would. LaRussa pointed the way forward and others went even further along.

Since LaRussa had an impact, that leads to the next question: was his influence benign or malignant? As critics of the 21st century bullpen usage rightly note, current relief aces throw considerably fewer innings than their pre-Eckersley ancestors. Instead of throwing 100 innings or more, contemporary closers are likely to toss around 60. It seems counterintuitive that an approach that limits the usage of the bullpen's most important player would be beneficial.

While true, the old-fashioned system featured a noticeable downside. If a team brought in its fireman to throw a few innings, he could not pitch for the next day or two. The current approach increases managerial flexibility, allowing closers to be available to close more games. Also, by minimizing the quantity of innings, managers can maximize quality of innings thrown from the most important bullpen arm. In a study in his book Winners, Dayn Perry argued modern closers are actually better leveraged than their predecessors. This flies in the face of a main criticism of current bullpen usage. People remember how Goose Gossage or Mike Marshall came into the seventh inning of tie games with the bases loaded and help the team out while moderns hold three-run leads in the ninth. Both scenarios existed, but neither described a typical outing for relief aces before or after Eckersley. Many seventh inning appearances from the 1970s did not come in highly dangerous scenarios and current closers hold plenty of one-run leads.

Ultimately, however, a moderate uptick in improved leveraging does not necessarily account for a considerable drop in innings. Though it has its advantages, the Oakland bullpen lessens the relief ace's importance.

However, paradoxical as it might sound, the new model bullpen does a better overall job utilizing the entire relief corps. The old version made sense provided a club had one trustworthy reliever, but normally a gigantic difference in quality between the two top arms in a bullpen does not exist. Thus if a manager spreads out the most important innings between them, and does it in a way that allows them to be called on more frequently, that helps his team's overall performance in close and late situations. Reserving roles by inning might be arbitrary and reductionist, but it has the advantage of ensuring that pitchers know their particular roles. If ever a team should have adopted this reliever strategy, it was LaRussa's Athletics. Since they featured numerous relievers pitching great, spreading out the key innings amongst them was sensible. LaRussa's handling of the Oakland relief corps was both cause and effect of their incredible quality.

Though that great bullpen was the most obvious example of LaRussa adeptly handling his talent, it was not the only one. A more recent example came with the 2008 Cardinals. St. Louis experienced a terrific stretch in the mid-2000s built around a core of Albert Pujols, Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen, and Chris Carpenter. By 2008, only Pujols remained (well, St. Louis still had Carpenter but he was too badly injured to be of any value). The team especially lacked dependable starting pitchers. They featured mediocre journeyman Kyle Lohse, and reclamation project Joel Pineiro backed up by two converted relievers - Braden Looper and Todd Wellemeyer. Their most reliable hurler was Adam Wainwright, a 26-year-old with only 32 major league starts in his career. That was a prayer, not a stable starting rotation. LaRussa made it work, and the Cards ended the year with an unexpectedly strong 86-76 record despite playing in the NL's toughest division.

LaRussa has made a career of getting more than one would expect from his starters. He had numerous quality staffs despite rarely having elite starting pitchers. Chris Carpenter had a great stretch, but it was brief before injuries felled him. Besides, though Carpenter had been promising, he had never established himself before joining St. Louis. Tom Seaver is the only established great pitcher LaRussa has ever had, but he was at the end of his career when he came to LaRussa's White Sox. LaRussa is more likely to get good production from veteran pitchers who never wowed anyone before. The prototypical LaRussa success story was Dave Stewart. A struggling reliever before LaRussa got a hold of him, Stewart posted four consecutive twenty-win seasons for the A's. LaRussa also oversaw revivals from Darryl Kile, Woody Williams, Kent Bottenfield, Mike Moore, Floyd Bannister, Garrett Stephenson, Todd Stottlemyre, Jason Marquis, Jeff Suppan, and Bob Welch.

However, LaRussa has not had much success with young pitchers. The White Sox featured a flock of young arms emerge under him, almost all of who had disappointing careers. While drug addiction took their toll on Cy Young winner LaMarr Hoyt, and Britt Burns's career foundered due to a degenerative hip, Richard Dotson, who went 22-7 in 1983 at age 24, blew out his arm. Ross Baumgarten earned some Rookie of the Year votes in 1979, but won only seven more games in his career. Super-prospect Todd Van Poppel was a disaster in Oakland. Bud Smith came up with the Cards in 2001 and despite throwing a no-hitter, was out of baseball by his 23rd birthday. Matt Morris was runner-up in the Rookie of the Year voting in 1997, and survived an arm injury to win 22 games in 2001, but then faded out. Rick Ankiel suffered an epic mental meltdown in the 2000 playoffs, and his pitching career never recovered.

Tony LaRussa is not only baseball's best manager since Joe McCarthy, but he is on the verge of doing something unthinkable - passing John McGraw on the all-time wins list. LaRussa merely needs to survive four more seasons, averaging 76 wins per campaign. His teams won 78 or more games in each of the last nine years.

Comment 1068 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Dude

Thars what she said

by mob16151 on Dec 15, 2009 7:22 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

thats*

previews should be my friend

by mob16151 on Dec 15, 2009 7:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Thar's is funnier.

It’s the Captain Ahab version of That’s What She Said.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 15, 2009 7:56 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

twhs?

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 15, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

No shit.

I logged on and saw that. My ‘Z’ button will be worn out reading all these.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Dec 15, 2009 8:00 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I dont get the staying up thing

granted im up that late usually anyway and I suppose it is fun to have baseball discussions…but the news will still be there in the morning.

by jealousblues on Dec 15, 2009 8:02 AM EST up reply actions  

LaRussa wants his players to feel the same drive. If one lacks that passion, even if it is a star like Scott Rolen or J. D. Drew, LaRussa cannot abide him. He sent both packing, and has had as many feuds with players as any prominent manager in recent times. In dealing with a particular player these feuds may be shortsighted, but they send a message to the rest of the team. If Scott Rolen is not safe, everyone else knows they need to play relentlessly. This ensures LaRussa’s teams give their maximum effort.

Was Rolen an lack of drive player?
I obviously was never in the clubhouse but I saw him continually going up there and playing hurt (VERY hurt) and never wanting to be out of the line up.

Have I missed something?

by jealousblues on Dec 15, 2009 8:01 AM EST reply actions  

I'm going to add my own

call of bullshit on that one. Scott Rolen’s feud with La Russa had absolutely nothing to do with drive. It had to do with two prideful, supremely stubborn individuals who simply couldn’t find a common ground in a disagreement.

Honestly, I’m more than a little bit bothered by that characterisation of Rolen. I would have to say it actually puts some doubt in my mind as to the overall quality level of this work. I’ll certainly defer to anyone with more knowledge of the book as a whole, though. Perhaps it’s simply a poorly thought-out line of reasoning and not something more systemic.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 15, 2009 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

ahhhhhh

new avatar

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Dec 15, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Somewhat OT...

(and probably discussed yesterday), but did you see the Rob Neyer column yesterday that listed the top 100 players of the 2000s? Pujols #1, Rolen # 11 and Edmonds #12. It helped remind me just how incredible the 2002-2005 seasons were to have all of those guys at their (relative) peaks. Of course they won it all in 2006, eliminating them from the “best team of the decade” discussions.

Side note: Renteria was listed #74. That’s a shame.

by IA Card on Dec 15, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

How amazing is it we somehow had guys of that quality in that quantity.

We could never afford a team like that now.
I know its the way the world is and I should quit my bitching, but I hate the way money is in baseball.
You cant talk about anything with out mentioning money, its kind of overbearing.

by jealousblues on Dec 15, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

We can.

We just need to have one of them come from the farm system, like Pujols, so that he is affordable. In 2001, Pujols made $200K. In ‘02, he made $600K. That jumped to $900K in 2003 and then expanded to $7MM in 2004. In 2005, Pujols made $11MM, and it’s gone up every year since then. If you can get a young player that is excellent, you can afford to pay two excellent veterans, too. (Of course, having an incredibly cheap pitching staff, like in 2004, doesn’t hurt either.) This is why I’m a faberge egg propagandist. We have to have good, young, and cheap players to be able to afford Pujols’s extension, Wainwright’s extension, and (hopefully) Holliday’s 6-year extension with two club option years at an average annual salary of $16MM (knock on wood).

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup

You have to hope that 3 of Rasmus, Jones, Kozma, Stock, and Miller pan out in the next 2-3 years. If they do, then they become cost-controlled assets that allow us to sign players like Wainwright to an extension in 2013

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

who's our 'money' on to 'pan out'

/hoping for Rasmus, Miller and either Jones or Stock

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Dec 15, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly

If I had to bet, it would be this:

  1. Rasmus
  2. Stock (as a pitcher)
  3. Miller

I’m kinda going south on DJ Tools — his power hasn’t developed and it should have by now. I think he’s going to end up being a John Jay that can’t play CF at a high level, which means he isn’t worth much at all to a big league club.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Stock

i admit, i didn’t know much about him until recently, but it sounds like to me, he’s either a B+/A- Catcher (with Power) or a B+/A- Pitcher, yet now Sickels ranks him as a B. Is that odd to anyone else, or is Sickels just hedging his bet on the guy, until he gets a larger sample size, and/or idea on which position he will play?

I ask, because you seem to know more about ol’ bobby.

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Dec 15, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Sickels thinks a lot more of him than most other scouts and talent evaluators

based significantly on his upside.

You’ve heard of Bryce Harper, right? The phenom catcher/pitcher/OF with the crazy talent who’s taking his GED so he can go to community college at age 17 to get in the draft next summer? Well, Robert Stock was Bryce Harper 3 years ago. He graduated early to go play at USC when he was 17, struggled offensively against the older players there, got moved to the mound and dominated the Pac-10, then left for the draft last year at age 19 and got selected by the Cardinals, who started him in A-ball as a catcher. Most people hated this move, as they like him more as a pitcher than a catcher, but you don’t find too many catchers with 30 HR upside, so I agree with John: If he can hack it as a catcher, he’s an extremely valuable commodity as he’s good defensively, but can slug 30 homers a year from behind the plate. If he can’t hack it with the bat, you can always move him to the mound where he’s got an A level arm.

Most have rated him a C+/B- prospect as a catcher and probably a solid B prospect as a pitcher, mainly due to his lack of starting experience as a pitcher.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I vote for Cooper Randal and Miller.

Not too sure about DJ Tools.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Dec 15, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

...
I would have to say it actually puts some doubt in my mind as to the overall quality level of this work.

Chris Jaffe does good work and spends a lot of time researching managers and players. He may have mischaracterized Rolen, but don’t take that out on the rest of his work.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 15, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think we really know

I tend to agree he came out and played every day, but that does not mean you have passion. Maybe he mailed it in. I think the ultimate issue was “who’s in charge” and LaRussa needed to prove he was. I don’t remember any Cards standing up for him at the time or later, so maybe there was more to it than we know.

I wouldn’t discount his analysis becaue of a poor choice of words. The point he is making is that he won’t let anyone interfere with the desire to win — Rolen was becoming a cancer. Maybe saying Rolen lacked passion was a stretch.

Just win

by The Duke on Dec 15, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Radio media in STL has implied

that part of the feud (prior to the “letter”, et al) was how Tony handled Albert versus the rest of the team. They say this wore on Rolen and he whined about it.

As much as Rolen was a gamer, he also pissed people off in Phillie & STL. In St. Louis my biggest problem was his playing through pain while never acknowledging the shoulder was bothering him. Obviously it was a problem, because a layman could see it was affecting his swing.

Stupid Hee Sop Choi and Alex Cintron.

by creativereason on Dec 15, 2009 8:31 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I didn't buy it till he started getting bounced from every -other- team.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 8:37 AM EST up reply actions  

the problem with Rolen was how pissed off he was at the Cards Dr's

Rolen felt betrayed & stabbed in the back by Tony, the rest of the coaches & FO because they sided with the DR’s instead of him. that’s the only reason why there was a falling out, if Scotty didn’t feel screwed over by the Dr’s, he’d still be playing for the Cardinals right now.

it had nothing to do with his drive or effort. that’s lazy reporting by the authors & if they had made just one phone call to Scotty or the Cards they would have known the real reason why he was traded. if anything Scotty wanted to play too much, he never wanted a day off & he felt he should always be on the field. comparing him to that nancy boy JD is a slap in his face & the single biggest disrespecting piece to ever be written about him.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions   5 recs

Agreed...

Rolen was always my favorite Card when he was with the team. It was not only his on the field play, but the way he went about it that made him my fav. (grit factor + objective performance) To hear that he didn’t play with passion is an insult to him.

by psrowlan on Dec 15, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I want rolen back

Seriously if we land Holliday I would be willing to deal with any drop off from Rolen just to see him back.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Dec 15, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

When he play vs. the Cards last season

He said he stopped by Tony’s office to wish him the best or something to that extent. I saw it in a FSN pre-game interview, I think. I wonder if he would be willing to come back? Probably it will never happen.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 16, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

that was really big of him to do that, he didn't have to say anything

but he wanted to quote, “bury the hatchet” and i’m glad they did.

sadly he’ll never be back though, not when the same people he feels screwed him over are still the Dr’s.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

y'all are misremembering

all it was — a quick word and then they parted ways. more of a detente, esp. since in the same interview Scottie said he had a longer conversation with other people.

if you remember the last Reds series, Tony spent a good five minutes arguing with the ump in front of Rolen. No eye contact, no acknowledgment.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 16, 2009 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I am afraid that you are probably right

Sometimes things improve with the passing of time. I guess the Wizard and TLR are still not on speaking terms. Sigh.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 16, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not a nancy boy!

I resemble that remark!

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Dec 16, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

wrong jd, JD

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

There WAS nothing wrong with my name

Until that talented ass-clown came out and started faking injuries

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Dec 16, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Mr Redbird should think about making a come back

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

...AJ Pujols will be 18

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 8:26 AM EST reply actions  

Is he really in jail?

I thought he just couldn’t play worth a crap.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

hit and run, killed a kid, police chase

sad all around

I dont know if he is the same guy who was in the minors or not though

http://www.kmbc.com/news/19263286/detail.html

by jealousblues on Dec 15, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Holy crap...

so he killed a kid while fleeing the police. That’ll get you some time…

Was this affter the Cards released him? It was surprising how high they took him…

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Two Wilfredos....

I remember reading something about this last summer since I live in Kansas City. There is a Wilfredo J. Pujols and a Wilfredo Pujols Jr. apparently. Based on the link below neither are the fine upstanding citizen that Sir Albert is. The Wilfredo who was involved in the hit and run was 24 at the time. See second link.

http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Dec 15, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

so has anyone

seen any confirmation of the offer other than Strauss’ article, which strikes me as still highly speculative. I’m really hoping it’s just Strauss being an asshat (cue RiverRat sig) and that’s not the real offer. 8 years and 128 million is too much for this organization to tie up in one player, especially one who might represent a substantial defensive liability in left as he ages.

by mattyp on Dec 15, 2009 8:35 AM EST reply actions  

I heard someone saying

that in 8 years the money wont be so bad, but thats assuming contracts keep going up.
Im always wondering how long can the salary escalation keep going on in MLB?

by jealousblues on Dec 15, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

It's already stopped...

in most segments of the market.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 8:41 AM EST up reply actions  

true

but you’ve almost got to wonder if its permanent or until the recession is dead and gone.
But thats a great point

by jealousblues on Dec 15, 2009 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Mo's figuring in the apocalypse

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Mo is a genius!

Left Behind is non-fiction. Right?

by arch support on Dec 15, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

memes belong to the collective

if it doesn’t, you’re, like… gdm, I guess.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

if you ask him, he can tell you in detail.

probably without any paragraph breaks.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

one day i'd like to have a write off with red,

i bet i could give him a run for his money.

and i’m sorry, no mob, being anything like me is bad.

and memes belong to everyone, pics or gifs on the other hand are totally different.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Pardon?

Do you mean in terms of sheer quantity of verbiage, or what exactly?

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 1:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey

will you do a special x-mas playlist for your next post?

Suggestions:
Christmas (Baby Please Come Home) – Darlene Love
We’re Goin’ to the Country! – Sufjan Stevens

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

It will indeed be up tomorrow.

And those are both excellent choices.

Sneak preview: Slade’s “Merry Xmas Everybody” will be included.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 1:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I've been addicted to Sufjan's songs for Christmas the last few weeks.

Lovely and haunting.

My wife’s cousin was killed in a car accident late Saturday night. This is my first depressing Christmas season, something that I always thought was oxymoronic when people said that the Holidays depressed them.

I can’t wait to get out of town and go to my parents farm to get away from it all next week.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 1:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, my.

I’m so sorry to hear that, Alex. Tough way to go for the both of you. I hope your wife is holding up alright; it’s always tough to have such lousiness associated with such a joyous time of year. I’ve never lost anyone at Christmas time, specifically, but the holidays always seem to twist the knife of absence just that much more.

Hopefully it will only get better from here.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 1:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah it's weird.

We’ve hardly even accepted that she’s gone, but we’ve accepted that Christmas’ from now on will always be depressing in a way knowing that her loud ass (meant in the most meaningful way, she could make anyone smile) is not there.

Her parents and sister and brother were all wearing their Cardinals jerseys at the wake tonight since they wanted to celebrate her life and she liked nothing more than watching a Cards game. Made me choke up just walking in.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I would try to come up with something cheerful to up your mood,

but unfortunately that’s not really my thing. Existential dread and wistful sorrow, that’s me.

If I were a superhero, I would be Bummerman and would depress villains into turning themselves in and then hanging themselves with their shoelaces once they were in prison.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 1:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm good

The wife and I just need to get to my folks place (I haven’t been home for longer than two days max in three and a half years) and watch Illinois beat Mizou again.

The Holidays will right themselves.

But if your superpowers could whine for some snow, that’d be sweet.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmm.

See, now I’m really conflicted, because I want you to be happy, but I’ll also be rooting for the Tigers to put a royal stomping on your boys in orange. My only recourse may really be to see if I can sadden a cloud into dropping a load of snow onto us.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 2:05 AM EST up reply actions  

deal.

the chips will fall where they may after that.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 2:08 AM EST up reply actions  

lol

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 16, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

that's awful to hear man

i’m never any good at this, so i’ll just say i’m sorry to learn of you & your wife & her family’s loss, and i hope you all can find some kind of comfort & solace to help you through this time.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 2:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks man.

I’m almost robotic in nature when it comes to death and it freaks some people out (including my wifes family and my mom; I’ve been to way too many funerals for a 29 year old) how cooly I accept it, but thats only b/c of my fear that death is the end and our lives are pointless scares me too much to react to that exact possibility when I’m confronted with it.

Not to get religious or existential here, but if this is it (which I am afraid it is) I’m going to be royally pissed.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 2:14 AM EST up reply actions  

You know,

not to get really, really weird, but that’s honestly the only reason I’ve never killed myself. I’m just too goddamned scared to find out I’ve been right all along and there really isn’t anything else. I’m far too attached to myself for this to be it.

If I believed there was even a chance of something beyond this, though, I would have done away with myself long ago.

See, like I said last night, I really shouldn’t hang around here this time of night.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 2:16 AM EST up reply actions  

this isn't all there is, it can't be

there is something better on the other side. i have no doubt about that.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 2:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I went to the doctor for a sinus infection last week.

She told me I had high blood pressure and had gained 18 pounds in the last two years. I told her I knew I was fat and that I have had high blood pressure since I was 18 and I weighed 160 pounds.

She asked why I never asked to get it treated and I told her I had high blood pressure, I’l live with it, just like my dad has and my gradpa did. She asked if I wanted to live longer than my grandpa and I said no.

She was kind of shocked and I told her he lived until he was 57 years old, smoked two packs of smokes a day and got drunk every night. he loved his wife, raised his kids, and worked his job. He could have lived longer but didn’t to go to the hospital b/c Hill Street Blues was on and he was watching it, chest pains be fucking damned. He died because that’s what men do. They’re born, they live, they die. That’s life.

As far as my grandpa was concerned, as soon as he died, life was over and he had nothing else to worry about. That’s when men were men.

When you die, you die, and you trip on this little planet of ours is done.

Which sound heroic, if not moronic, and I, in my pussified wisdom, gave in to my doc and I, who went in for a sinus infection, I came out with Affrin, blood pressure medicine, and a new physical trainer to fix my back. My grandpa would kick my ass if he was still alive.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 2:26 AM EST up reply actions  

i bet he'd be jealous that you'll now get live longer

and get to party harder than he ever did

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 2:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll drink to that...

wait that seems really inappropriate.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 2:57 AM EST up reply actions  

i would like to live to see my grandkids.

i’d miss a whole fucking lot if i died at 57.

i’m on board with the whole not fighting it out till long past i can’t remember who i am. but there’s a lot of space between a fatal MI at 57 and getting fed through a tube at 85.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 16, 2009 2:59 AM EST up reply actions  

But then there are people

like my grandfather who’s 86 and lives by himself with no real problems. If I got those genes I’ll be rather happy. If I get the 80 year old living in a home crapping himself genes I’ll be pissed.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 3:01 AM EST up reply actions  

i didn't mean to say being 85 isn't worth it. i've got the being 85

isn’t a treat genes on both sides. so i’m resigned to there being an endpoint. my ninth decade – should i reach that far – is not going to be pretty.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 16, 2009 3:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn't say you were.

More just trying to give a shout out to my grandpa.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 3:05 AM EST up reply actions  

i just realized my comment had been phrased in a way

that could be misinterpreted. i was correcting myself not so much for you but other folks.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 16, 2009 3:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough...

I’ll chalk it up to being late and slipping reading skills. Granted since I’m on vampire time that’s not really a great excuse, but whatever.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 3:09 AM EST up reply actions  

the cool vampire time though right?

for your sake i hope it’s not that abomination twilight

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 3:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Nah since I have no worldly responsibilites

I’ve taken to taking my nightly nap anywhere between 4 and 6 in the morning and waking up around noon. Life is a lot of fun with 4 1/2 hours of daylight. Hence vampire time.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 3:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice, me too

And I’m loving this VEB up at 2:30.

(Insert Your Own Joke)

by AWolfAtTheDoor on Dec 16, 2009 3:25 AM EST up reply actions  

count me in

I’m just sad there’s no midnight strauss info

"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~

by YesWeOquendo on Dec 16, 2009 3:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm kinda disappointed in my boy too

Now I’m left with nothing to look forward to.

(Insert Your Own Joke)

by AWolfAtTheDoor on Dec 16, 2009 3:36 AM EST up reply actions  

ah me too

only i call i xmas/summer break time

R.P.O.F.Y.M.

by BVHeck on Dec 16, 2009 4:42 AM EST up reply actions  

i've been around a lot of death too

it never gets any easier for me though. i’m robotic about it in some ways, but when it happens to people you don’t think it should, usually friends & those under 40, i have a hard time shaking it. of course i still haven’t been able to shake off what we all went through with my dad & that was 2 years ago this week. so maybe i’m not as robotic about it as i think.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 2:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I would give a lot

to be able to live my life thinking there was something after this. Seems like a much happier existence going through life believing this is a dress rehearsal.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Being able to make up our own afterlifes

made getting through the war a lot easier (and fun!) for my friends and I.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 2:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Luckily I've never had to be in a situation like that.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 2:33 AM EST up reply actions  

It made philosophising intersting

and made actual philosophy classes seem retarded at times afterward. And disproved quite a few times the old adage “there are no atheists in foxholes.”

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 2:36 AM EST up reply actions  

It is really late

and I’m pretty sure there’s only a handful of people on here and I just feel like I can’t call myself the believer that I profess to be (in places other than here because its not allowed) without interjecting here a little. All it takes to believe that there is something after this life is just a little blind faith that we were put here for a purpose and that there is something more than just our daily lives going on here.

It definitely is a happier life, and you do not have to give a lot, just yourself, to experience it. You seem like a smart person and I’m sure you have read the bible before. Seek your answers there and be open to accepting the truth with blind faith and you can have that happiness. That goes for all of you.

I’m sorry if I overstepped here and I wouldn’t care if this goes away. I just feel like with the darkness that is being bantered about, a little light needed to be shined. I apologize if I have offended anyone, but this is what I believe and I hope that you could all come to accept it as well. I’ve always tried to avoid getting in this discussion because I didnt want to offend anyone or break community guidelines, but I just feel like tonight I need to share a little.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 16, 2009 2:32 AM EST up reply actions  

thanks

I’ll put in a word or two with the big guy for you and yours.

If you ever have any questions, shoot me an email. sarnold4@hotmail.com

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 16, 2009 2:41 AM EST up reply actions  

we talk occasionally

normally when I’m in the middle of a pasture or forest or on a board in the ocean.

He’s a cool dude, from what I gather.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 2:44 AM EST up reply actions  

that he is

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 16, 2009 2:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Eh seemed fine to me.

But then again my name and avatar aren’t at the bottom so my opinion probably doesn’t matter.

My whole problem is after being trained as an engineer blind faith is not something that jives well with me. And therein lies the problem.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 2:37 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah

dang that education. Mine is physical therapy, at a baptist university, coming from a baptist college in undergrad. Funny thing is, I made all the life changes before going to those schools, while I was at a JUCO where everyone was partying and livin it up. Then, I just kinda fell into the baptist school for undergrad because of baseball.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Dec 16, 2009 2:44 AM EST up reply actions  

My personal theory on all this stuff

pretty much boils down to don’t be a jerk. I figure it’s hard to go wrong with a theory like that.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 2:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry for your loss, Eff.

When I was 11, my grandpa (who I lived with) died of cancer 6 days before Christmas. I’d spent all of November pleading with the universe to not let him die on my birthday (Dec 1). I didn’t consider the ramifications of losing him at Christmas-time.

Just hug everyone a little tighter and a little longer. It’s the only advice I have.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 16, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

That's pretty good advice for any situation, really.
Just hug everyone a little tighter and a little longer. It’s the only advice I have

Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 16, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

We are the Birdo

Your memeness shall be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 15, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Albertofstan is a great country

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly...

you don’t see me being stingy with my gift to the world.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 15, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Albertofstan...

great country? Or Greatest Country?

Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 15, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

we're too humble to set anyone straight.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was

We’re too busy singing to put anybody down?

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 15, 2009 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

singing?

that sounds like a prelude to the Wave…

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

anyone who does the wave will be killed on the spot

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

i thought that was implied?

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

It's a temporary stop

The economy is already picking up. Attendance wasn’t down nearly as much in 2009 as managers anticipated.

by sdrone on Dec 15, 2009 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

We'll see...

I think there was an irrational run-up in salaries from 2005-2008, and while the recession put the kibosh on some of that, improved value assessment was the main driver.

There’s a dwindling stable of nitwit GMs, and they come under intense ridicule when they do something like give Brandon Lyons three years.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

$16M for a 37 yr old in eight years

Cameron is a good example. He just signed for $15.5M/2 yrs entering his age 37 season. Let’s front load it and say he is making $8.5M this year and $7.0M in 2011. A 10% annual increase in salaries would make that $8.5M equal to $16.0M in 2017.

Not sure salaries in baseball can average 10% increase for the next 8 years. A 5% annual increase translates to $12M in 2017.

by ubeddie on Dec 15, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

the economy isn't picking up

if the gov’t doesn’t stop f’ing around we’re in a lot more trouble than anyone realizes. look at the NBA, NHL & NFL games & you’ll see a lot of empty seats that weren’t there last seasons. MLB contracts will never be what they once were unless the economy is allowed to improve on it’s own & people are once again able to come to the games. if those 3 are facing an attendance problems now, you can bet MLB will too in 2010

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not really a sign of a bad economy

#1. I believe NHL attendance is actually up outside of a couple markets like Phoenix and the Islanders (massive mitigating factors). Luxury stuff is down, but I believe they’re talking that the salary cap is going to stay where it’s at or nudge up a bit. The NBA has been in decline for awhile anyway. I have nothing for the NFL attendance (but I like to think people have realized that going to an NFL game is worse than watching 2 games at once on TV)

#2. In any case, struggling attendance I would say would be a result of the high unemployment rate and then its effect of scaring people who do have jobs into saving more (which is likely a good thing long term anyway). Unemployment is a lagging indicator of the worst kind so short term attendance doesn’t mean all that much if we’re talking 5-8 year deals.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 15, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Rams games are the worst

Sooooo boring. College football is great live. The problem with the Rams is their no tail gaiting anymore. I used to tail gate the Rams games all the time. My buddies gf was a Miller girl so we all just hung outside after the game started and just drank.

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 15, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

but if the high unemployment continues, and there aren't many signs it's going to get lower

deal will be effected & i think they already are being effected. i am by no mean an economist, i watch the three biz channels & read a little online about the economy & like to think i could do well on the stock market. so i’m only going by what i see & read. and a high unemployment like the real 20% we have right now is going to kill sports teams in the very near future if it stays that high. with the Cardinals who have to depend on 3+ million fans coming to 81 games + playoff to keep payroll around $100Mil, a high unemployment will effect their bottom line & their ability to sign long terms deals. and i think it already is, MO & DeWitt have said as much this off season.

one thing i didn’t mention about the NFL is how many bad teams there are right now. those are the teams that have the lowest attendance. winning teams will still draw, but if city’s like the STL, Cleveland & Jacksonville don’t start winning soon, those teams will be in big, big trouble.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i always forget to take into account the pies

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Ummm 20%????

How come I haven’t heard this more?

(Insert Your Own Joke)

by AWolfAtTheDoor on Dec 15, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

There's unreported unemployment. Perhaps gdm heard an estimate of that.

Still, it’s likely only 20% in select areas. Like Detroit.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 15, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Unemployment numbers only count people getting a check

If you’ve exhausted that, or didn’t have the right kind of job you don’t get unemployment.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 15, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand that. But many people have given up looking.

What do you call someone that’s exhausted unemployment and can’t find a job? Me, I still call them unemployed. Economists are calling them the unreported jobless.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 15, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

right & under employment is factored into that 20%

where people are working at lower paying jobs than they were a few years ago.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Well this is a fun subthread...

time for shots.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 15, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

If when surveyed you reported

“Seeking a job but not currently employed” you would be counted as unemployed.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 15, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks.

I wonder what kind of sample size they do with those surveys.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 15, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

60,000 households

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 15, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

To skew it the way the person paying wants...

At least that’s what I’d want if I commissioned one of those bad boys.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 15, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

well, it's done by

the bureau of labor statistics. not they wouldn’t necessarily have a reason to skew the results. but it’s not like it’s done by the white house or anything

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 15, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

that, i don't know

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 15, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

i wonder that too

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

wrong

unemployment is based on an employment survey

employed = employed
seeking employment = unemployed
not seeking employment = not counted

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 15, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Underemployment

ie people unemployed, no longer looking, and those working part time dead end jobs that used to have real careers has been ~ 20% for like 18 months now. Welcome to America.

by Mister Eff on Dec 16, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Well yeah

But unemployment isn’t predictive at all, it’s reactive, and 5 months from now it will be a very different situation. I say for the good, maybe for the bad, but what it is right now is borderline irrelevant to what it’s going to be 5 months from now.

Whatever 20% “real” means is….just inaccurate, they can manipulate the stats any which way they want. That’s like putting RA on the ERA scale, if only RA were completely impossible to calculate and the majority of the difference between the two was totally irrelevant (had to throw a baseball analogy in here somewhere!). There’s a standardized way of calculating unemployment and any dramatic shift in unemployment will be—-and has been—-recorded on that scale.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 15, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

the 20% comes from factoring in under employment,

people who are getting paid less for a job then a few years ago or have taken a pay cut. and people who are like spants & tired of looking & stopped. i do agree you can spin it any way you want, but whatever way you spin it the numbers are not good & i don’t think they will be getting any better any time soon.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm only sort of unemployed.

I co-own a business.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 15, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

i thought you might still be doing that in home things you've talked about

but i wasn’t sure, i was just using you as an example because you said it above

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

well that sucks, i'm not going to come close to making what i used to either

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel ya

I used to make just stupid money. But life on commission is like that. I don’t think I could go back to a 100% commission job.

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 15, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

me neither, i'll never go back to that

it’s not good for my health

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 15, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

my old boss who is just 9 years older than i

almost died 5 times this year from his heart & gallbladder problems. that was a big wake up call to me to get out of that. that & it’s also harder than it used to be in sales.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

No the numbers are not good currently

But you shouldn’t be looking to unemployment for any prediction at all. It is a lagging indicator.

It’s basically the same as looking at other, months old, leading indicators, which were terrible……well yeah that’s obviously true, but we have months of new data that describes what is likely to happen much better.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 15, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

as do i, i think there will be a small uptick & then a bigger drop off

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Based on what exactly?

Just curious.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 1:38 AM EST up reply actions  

i don't know if i can without getting too political

i’ll try to dance around this as best i can.

i am a big believer in a free market, free enterprise system that’s lets capitalism work. and our leaders don’t share those same views & are doing everything they can to make us as a nation more dependent on our gov’t to provide all our jobs & basically run our lives. unless that changes, and changes quickly this small uptick that’s currently happening won’t last for long.

if that’s too much, feel free to get rid of it red, i tried to dance as best i could. but seeing as i’m a white guy in ohio, my dancing skills are not very good.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 2:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't sell yourself short

I’ve seen you spinkler and start the lawn mower with the best of them.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

the cabage patch is my go to move

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 2:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Well I just assumed that...

doesn’t every honky default to the cabbage patch?

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 2:56 AM EST up reply actions  

damnit man stop giving away our secrets!

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 3:07 AM EST up reply actions  

It's about as well kept secret

as the one about you liking bacon, brownies, and bourbon…

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 3:08 AM EST up reply actions  

i guess that's why i cant work for the CIA/FBI

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 3:10 AM EST up reply actions  

i guess this is why i cant work for the CIA/FBI

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 3:10 AM EST up reply actions  

WTF SBN?

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 3:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Deja vous? That means there's a glitch in the SBN

Somethings changed. The CIA/FBI (aka. azru) are onto you. Shouldn’t have brough up politics. Apparently you can’t dance well enough to save your life. Better get some help

"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~

by YesWeOquendo on Dec 16, 2009 3:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Guns. Lots of guns.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 16, 2009 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

no one can help me

it’s too late i’m a goner

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

you didn't really give any explanation there

any kind of claims as to the direction of the economy should be explained from an economic standpoint, not a political one.

how soon you also forget that this economic problem started under political leadership with economic values similar to your own

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 16, 2009 3:17 AM EST up reply actions  

careful, this is a baseball blog

keep it clean

"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~

by YesWeOquendo on Dec 16, 2009 3:23 AM EST up reply actions  

honestly

i’m just looking for an economic explanation as to why he believes such. i’m also interested on what basis the claim that a slight economic improvement followed by a massive downturn can be predicted lies

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 16, 2009 3:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

If its not simply politics, there should be evidence for it.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 16, 2009 5:32 AM EST up reply actions  

It passed the eye test?

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 5:47 AM EST up reply actions  

nowdaggoneeyetestwhatchutalkinboutman?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 16, 2009 5:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Sounded good at the time

good job with the Brett Myers spouses assaulted stat in the article yesterday. I enjoyed the humor even if others didn’t.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 5:51 AM EST up reply actions  

no they did not

anyone who believes the gov’t should have their hands in the private sector does not share my beliefs. i don’t care what letter comes after your name, if you help put this country on the path it is today, you’re screwing up everything for everyone.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

No, he's saying that the problems were

due to UNDER-regulation, not excessive regulation

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 16, 2009 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

ok, that's fine

but i still don’t think it’s the gov’t job to do the regulations.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

The fact that the mods let this conversation go on this long is surprising to me

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Dec 16, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

i tried to keep my part all biz related

i really did

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

So, in essence

You believe in a completely free-market society and that free markets will always correct themselves if they get to out of whack. The less regulation the better, no regulation at all is the best.

Supposing the above is true, then you believe that the government should have just let the entire financial system fail last year, correct? Every bank should have gone down the same way that Lehman Brothers went down. I’ve heard this from a lot of people, and as a capitalist free-market groupthink it makes some semblence of sense — let the strong survive and let the weak fail.

The problem is that banks like Citigroup and Bank of America have their hands and fingers in everything. If you let those major banks fail, then companies like GE, General Motors, Ford, Exxon, etc. can’t even make payroll — they would essentially go bankrupt in a matter of weeks because they don’t have the liquid asset available to make their payrolls without commercial paper, which is backed by those big banks. If you let the entire financial system fail, you’re talking about MASSIVE unemployment — probably much, much worse than the Great Depression, which took 20 years and the massive government spending of WWII to recover from.

Now, capitalism protects nobody, rich or poor, but those who are smart enough to “read the market” and pick up inefficiencies which can be exploited. What these financial companies are engaged in, and what caused this huge recession isn’t capitalistic principles — it’s the principles of greed, pure and simple, and greed really doesn’t mix with capitalism in my view. Capitalism is an economic and social system in which capital, the non-labor factors of production (also known as the means of production), is privately controlled;[citation needed] labor, goods and capital are traded in markets; and profits distributed to owners or invested in technologies and industries. But these banks aren’t invested in technologies and industries, they’re invested in trillions of dollars in unregulated derivatives that don’t have any basis of value except for what the market describes of them. If a company goes under, that company generally will have assets and liabilities with which to provide investors, and those assets and liabilities must be disclosed to the public. These derivatives can literally disappear into thin air overnight — from being valued at $100 to being gone, because they aren’t backed with actual assets and anyone knows anything about.

The futures market works like this too. Every literal barrel of oil produced in the world has already been traded between 20-40 times before it is even OUT OF THE GROUND. Other commodities work in this same way. Last year, the futures market for oil traded more barrels of oil in a single year than has ever been produced in the history of the oil industry. Think about that for a minute. They aren’t creating value, they’re exploiting prices. They aren’t creating products or goods, they’re making billions of dollars selling future barrels of oil that don’t currently exist. It’s lunacy!

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 16, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Your first paragraphs basically makes this a strawman, doesn't it?

I don’t see how you can assume that his viewpoint is necessarily “no regulation at all” based on what he said. That kind of 100% unregulated economy neither exists anywhere nor can it exist anywhere. And I would be very surprised if he was actually in favor of it.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 16, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it really doesn't

He believes in the “free market-free enterprise system”, which is essentially saying that he believes that the more unrestrained the market is the better it is for everyone involved. It’s an Alan Greenspan-esque view, and even he’s said that he overestimated how well the market could check itself.

Furthermore, I stated that I was assuming this based on his conversation in the thread. If this is not the way that he feels then he needs to speak up and say so and I will adjust my argument.

I do think that there are a lot of people who believe in the “free-market and free-enterprise” but have little to no idea what that means. I’m trying to have a conversation about what a true Adam Smith style free market would look like.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 16, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

I think a lot of people say “free enterprise” and they really don’t mean “pure Adam Smith type” economy. Some hardcore types do, sure.
I tend to assume that is someone says they are a “free market” type, they accept that some sort of minimum amount of regulation is required. The question then becomes, since modern economies including the U.S. economy are significantly regulated, does one think we need more, less, or the same amount of regulation. I assumed gdm the, favors less than we have now. But maybe he really is one of the minority of “true” free marketers.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 16, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

And I think that

economies work better when the government does some “trust busting” every once and a while. You can’t tell me that telephone service isn’t cheaper now than it was in 1975, when adjusted for inflation, and it’s cheaper to fly now than it ever has been before due to deregulation of the airline industry.

FWIW, I think that Glass-Steagall needs to be re-enacted in some form, because it’s been proven over the last 14 years that deposit banks and investment banks cannot work as the same entitiy. The investment arm is always going to have debt that the deposit side cannot capitalize.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 16, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm not smart enough to debate financial stuff with you

or anyone actually. all i know is the less the gov’t has it’s hands in the financial sector, the better off we all are. i didn’t say there shouldn’t be any regulations. i think there should be some form, what that is i’m not smart enough to come up with. but there just should not be any regulations enforced by the gov’t because absolute power corrupts absolutely.

when you have banks that are strong armed into giving out loans to people by those in the gov’t or who are very close to the gov’t, then all hell breaks lose. this country wouldn’t be here today unless that happened. and why did that happen? the facts as i see it are people with certain political & social agendas twisted arms & forced the hands of many banks. if that never happened, we’d be in a lot better financial position. and Lego probably would be getting $200Mil for 8 years & Albert would get $400Mil for 10 & no one would blink because that’s just how good off we’d all be.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm late on this

But you’re actually very wrong on this. That’s fine if you believe in a free enterprise system and free market system, but if you know game theory at all, there’s HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE risk for “Tragedy of the Commons,” which is why I believe that some intervention is okay

Furthermore, unless you want a Depression that lasted 15 years with HUGE unemployment rates, then the government bailout was definitely needed. The CBO found that the government multiplier is 1.50 (that is, for every $1 the government spends, GDP raises $1.50) and the tax multiplier was about 1 (which is why I’m not a big fan of them, but they have a more immediate effect on the economy)

And on your first point, as an economics major, I think the worst is way behind us. Everything, right now, is trending in the right direction The one thing I’m worried about is when the Fed decides to raise interest rates. I think that MAYBE enough people have gotten out of bonds and into stocks to stymie a huge drop in the stock market when that happens, but there’s be a dip nonetheless

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 16, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just upset

that as a civil engineer I was told Obama would be making it rain for us… I have yet to see this. Granted it’s winter in Chicago, but still. I’m not really upset about it. I just like making that joke.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

If you get out and look at some of the roads and bridges

It’s very scary. Even more scary if you know what you’re looking at :)

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

absofreaklinglutely

just look at what happened to the twin cities two years ago. many of our bridges we all use every day are in bad bad shape

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Not to split hairs

I totally understand what you guys are saying and I generally agree, but wasn’t there a design flaw in that bridge that ultimately was the reason for the collapse? Obviously the years of wear and tear contributed, as did the construction and extra concrete they added to it, but infrastructure is only as good as its design and execution. Not all publicly funded infrastructure projects are created equal, and something like that could easily happen again down the road if it isn’t done right. I could be totally off base with this though.
Anyway, I don’t mean to be a jerk. But I am a knee-jerk (?). It’s kind of like when people cite natural disasters when they argue for action on climate change. OK, I’m done now, sorry.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 16, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I was trained in the transportation division of civil engineering

so I am by no means a structural engineer which is where bridges come in. But generally the design flaws aren’t really all that important if things were maintained properly. To put this in a realm I know what I’m talking about. I’ll talk about potholes. Potholes more or less are a failure of the pavement. They are caused first by a crack, and then that crack allowing water to get in run some freeze-thaw cycles. This weakens the road until big heavy things drive over it and cause the failure. This can all be solved by sealing the cracks to prevent water from getting in. So there you go long rambling explanation that didn’t really have a well thought out point. These are the things you get from me when I just wake up.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh. No worries.

But pavement itself doesn’t have a very complicated “design”, does it? The bridge in question had some sort of steel plating (I think) somewhere that they determined was too thin (again, I think, I am relying on wikipedia here) from the get-go. It very well may have been something that better maintenance could have solved, but I thought I read more than once that the design flaw was thought to be the main culprit.
And on a related note, man I sure do love me some new and improved highway 40. Though, part of that could just be that traffic is now way better where I live and work.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 16, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you are right on some things

Pavement design is very complicated. It’s not just about designing the surface layer. You have to design the base, subbase, and consider the subgrade. This is on top of the geometric design: horizontal, vertical, cross sections, and superelevation.

On the I-35W bridge collapse, I think NTSB agrees with you that it was probably the gusset plate and lack of maintenance and inspection.
NTSB report

Agreed on the I-64 construction. I think it was wise that they closed down sections at a time which shortened the length of construction. I still crack up at all you STL folks that still call it highway 40.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 16, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Man, turns out there's a lot I don't know about pavement

Cool beans.
And gusset plate is the term I was not remembering, thanks.
It will always be highway 40 to me, I can’t help it. That’s just what it was called by people I was around and dadgummit, it’s a free country! If a man wants to call it highway 40 we should respect his wishes!
I will never ever call it highway “farty”, nor will I ever refer to its cousin “farty far”.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 16, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I am still trying to pronounce

Wash U correctly. Is it “Werrshh U”?

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 16, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Ugh. I don't go for that either. I don't warsh my clothes.

I’ve noticed they’re emphasizing WUSTL instead of Wash-U now. Kind of annoying, because I really prefer saying “washu” to saying “woostel”.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 16, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

There was a design flaw

from my understanding. However if the stuff is properly inspected by people who know what they’re doing it can usually be caught before it all comes down. A lot of this stuff starts presenting itself well before the failure occurs. And the difference between pavement design and bridge design is, when we screw up a pavement it falls apart and you slow down some to make it work, possibly a few cars get jacked up. When a bridge comes down it’s bad times all around.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

What type of civil?

I am in transportation.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 16, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Same here

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

All I'm sayin

Is that unemployment is a bad indicator of future performance haha!!

There’s arguments to be made either way on the future though obviously yeah I’m on the more optimistic end of those. Probably way too political to go further than that.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 16, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

rather

rbi

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 16, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd say

Team wins and losses vs. pythag.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 16, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm so f'in lost right now it's not even funny

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 16, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

still, no way bernanke deserves a 10 year deal.

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Dec 16, 2009 2:47 AM EST up reply actions  

if only.

otoh, GM tried to opt themselves right out of business- but the gov’t decided they were too big to fail, and gave them $50B to sign up for another few years of replacement-level production…

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Dec 16, 2009 3:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Does the U.S. economy consistently outperform its peripherals?

And if so is there a non-luck reason for this consistency?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 16, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

8 years isn't that bad

provided the Cardinals offer an opt-out clause. In fact, I would guess the Cardinals wouldn’t offer the 8 year deal without the opt-out clause, hoping that 4 years into the deal Holliday runs for more money, thereby allowing the Cardinals to make an offer to Albert that times a salary escalation for the same time.

by JMedwick on Dec 15, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

But the opt-out...

is necessarily a benefit to the player. If his deal is below market, he leaves, if it isn’t he stays. In either case the team loses. Presumably, Holliday would take less money/fewer years in return for the opt-out clause.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

the way I see the opt out

it hurts us if he gets hurt or stinks obviously

but I would rather lose 1-2 good years where we are paying around market value than be stuck with 2-3 years of diminished output where we are still paying a lot.

by jealousblues on Dec 15, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Sure

If Holliday gets hurt, whether the deal includes an opt out clause or not, the Cards are screwed.

by JMedwick on Dec 15, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I would argue

That taking $16 million a season over an 8 year deal is less than what Boras believes he can get for Holliday in future off-seasons and therefore any opening to give Matt another shot at free agency while also hedging the potential for an injury is worth it to the player.

by JMedwick on Dec 15, 2009 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

mutual opt out would be ok

player only sucks

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 15, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

mutual opt out? without a buyout or something else the opting out party gives up, that's just a short

contract.

e.g., an eight year contract with a mutual opt out after four years is just a four year contract.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 15, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

coulda sworn i saw somebody sign this year with a mutual $1m buyout.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 15, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

A mutual opt out

would be something that allows both parties to agree to part ways after so many years. A single opt out only requires one party not both to agree, otherwise the contract would continue

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Dec 15, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

why not?

Does a mutual option make sense?

Basically it allows for a player like say Scott Rolen who would like out of his contract to ask the club to let him out, and then allows the club to release him yet not be liable for the remaining money on the contract.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Dec 15, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

If Front-Loaded....

…the cowtract would pay him moore in his first 2-3 productive years, and less when he becomes a pork butt roast by year 8.

:=8/

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 15, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed, BUT

I just hope Mo has cast a wary eye in the direction of left field on the north side of Chicago.

by sdrone on Dec 15, 2009 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I have to ask

How hard do you have to concentrate to include all the bovine-inspired typos in your post? It seems so natural that I can only assume you’ve got some keyboard macros set-up.

by arch support on Dec 15, 2009 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, to be Honest....

…I do it all day at work to irritate my cow-workers. It’s what I does.

;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 15, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Woth

I mean with. Man I need some hookt on fonix.

by mob16151 on Dec 15, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I Just Like....

milking it for all its worth…

;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 15, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder...

if it’s a true 8 year offer. Strauss wrote that it’s the largest offer ever given a player, but a 6/$96M or 7/ $112M w/ a $5M buyout would be surpass the Pujols deal. I think we should all hope for this type of contract.

by IA Card on Dec 15, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

my speculation as well

is that it’s not a rock-solid 8yr/128 deal, but one with an option (or two? hopefully) at the end. they can be mutual, for all i care.

I do want Holliday back, pretty badly in fact, but hope 8 years is incorrect.

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Dec 15, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

what if they offer Albert this deal + $1?

would we be comfortable with the same deal for the Mang?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

honest question, I can't math this week.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Holliday...

is starting to be a little undervalued in some circles. He is an elite talent – his three months in the AL seem to have really changed the way he is perceived.

We can’t know how he’ll age, but he’s not a Soriano/Wells/Carlos Lee type of hitter. His 9% career BB rate should allow him to be a more productive hitter as he ages. I concede that how he plays the field will be a concern during his mid-30s but he’s a good athlete (28 SBs in 2008) so I’m not overly worried. We can only hope he ages as well as Jimmy Baseball did.

by IA Card on Dec 15, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand what people are expecting here.

I’ve got a market value 8 year contract for Holliday as worth 150M. Anyone who says that this offer is too much needs to provide a more detailed assessment of 1) club financials w/ Pujols or 2) their WAR assessment of Holliday. I think that either will show this is an eminently reasonable value.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Dec 15, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

It's too many years, IMO.

Given Mo’s negotiating foil, I doubt that there is a club option for the seventh and eighth year, which would make it very, very reasonable. I don’t think Holliday’s agent is going to be reasonable, let alone very, very reasonable. The Teixeira comparison is a false one because Holliday plays a position that requires far more mobility than first base and the Cards don’t have the DH to hide an aging player who can still hit but is declining in the field.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If you don't like...

the deal from the Cards stand point, why would you hope for an additional clause that benefits the player?

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I think,

because he is hoping we get four good years and then Holliday opts out, allowing us not to pay him $16MM in his Age 35, 36, and 37 seasons. At least, that is my impression.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

I’m fine with the money, I just don’t want to be paying for his declining years.

Opt-outs can benefit teams, too.

by Mister Eff on Dec 15, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

But if he opts out...

then presumably the remainder of the contract he’s opting out of is a below market deal. Having a player opt out of a below market deal is only beneficial for the team if they’re in some kind of a financial crunch and they need to focus on saving money at the expense of building a good team. I don’t think the Cardinals will be in that situation in four years, and I can’t think of any other scenario where an opt-out benefits the team.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

His agent is Scott Boras.

He’ll opt out unless the contract is ridiculously back loaded and he’s hurt.

by Mister Eff on Dec 15, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

That’s why player opt-outs are bad for the club.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Or, they're good for the club

like when Drew opted out of his Dodgers contract to get more money and decline elsewhere.

by Mister Eff on Dec 15, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

How was that good for the Dodgers?

They had him signed for a 3/33 when his market value was 5/70

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Right

like buying out Jason Schmidt’s terrible contract, and paying Manny Ramirez about $8M more per year than the’s worth, and paying half of Juan Pierre’s contract to get rid of him.

FWIW, I’d much rather have Drew playing LF right now, while keeping the prospects I gave up to get Ramirez — considering I’d have an extra $8M to pay someone else. It might have worked out for the Dodgers if they didn’t throw their money around stupidly.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, for sure.

It’s what you do when you get lucky that defines you….yet we still got swept out of the playoffs by that team. Shit.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Does that mean that we were just unlucky

for those three games?

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 15, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

The Holliday miscue was about as unlucky as one club can get.

Chris Carpenter turns in his worst performance of the season in Game 1.

The RISP performances were the definition of luck and a lack thereof.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah.

I kinda just chalked up the whole last three weeks as us coming back to earth with a thud.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 15, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

We thumped the shit out of their pitching staff

in the regular season, and we beat up their bullpen too. Kershaw was the only starter that really had our number, and we had him beaten in Game 2 if Holliday catches that ball. Just shitty, shitty luck, but I guess we had plenty of luck in 2006, and what goes around comes around.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember us beating them up rather soundly,

we also beat up on a lot of really bad teams until the end of the season. Carp got tired, Franklin came back off Cloud City and Piniero became Pinata. Holliday wasn’t going to hit at a 500 clip for the rest of the season. LOBsters were a problem for the whole month of Sept, which exposed the whole rest of the team not named Albert. Yadi hit everyball he took a swing at right at the middle infield, which was a year long problem.
The only “bad luck” I buy into is the Holliday nutshot.90 times out of 100 he makes that catch.
And Albert turned into a doubles hitter, when they would pitch to him.This was a monthlong problem as well.
I don’t see it as bad luck, just a confluence of underlying factors that came together at a rather inopportune time. Basically, all of weaknesses got exposed at once.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 15, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

many of which we saw coming

the national media were the only ones who saw us as favorites. probably because they didn’t watch the team lose its last six games.

SERIOUSLY.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I dug up his World Series

the Sauks basically hit it to left field in most of their scoring opportunities.

I found that… interesting. I’d like to watch those games, now. at the time being totally disinterested.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I meant 900 out of 1000.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 15, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

90 out of 1000

You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?

by jd is legend on Dec 15, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I was trying to play nice.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 15, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

The 5/55 he signed...

with the Dodgers would have run through 2009. When he opted out, he was looking at 3/33. During those three years with the Red Sox he produced over 10 WAR and was worth over $40 million, even with the lost time to injury. He may have blocked Ethier, but his presence on the roster may also have prevented the Pierre signing or the Ramirez trade.

In any case, this is just one example. I still think, aside from very rare scenarios that likely won’t apply to the Cardinals, opt-outs are only useful to the club if they save money up front.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

If Holliday is awesome for the next five years and wants to opt out to get more money elsewhere, I say thank you for the five awesome years and good luck getting old, then spend the money improving the team elsewhere.

by Mister Eff on Dec 15, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Which would you rather be:
  1. On the hook for a the full 8 years with a no-trade clause, OR
  2. On the hook for the first four years, with a player opt-out right before he begins his decline phase and becomes an injury risk?

I’ll take Option 1 please, hold the cream and sugar.

If what we’re so worried about is that last 3-4 years of the contract, why WOULDN’T we want him to opt out? We get him through the 2013 season, which will be the end of Waino’s contract, the point where Albert probably begins to decline, and the end of Rasmus’ cost controlled seasons. That’s the reason why we want him — to compete the next 3-4 seasons. Then he can opt out and the Cardinals can go another route — preferably with younger cost controlled talent procured while competing for NL titles those previous four seasons.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

You want Option 1 or Option 2?

I’ve spent most of the morning warming up to the opt-out, hoping that I get four or five years of Matt Holliday and then he opts out with Boras crying, “Go East, Young Aging Man!”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Option 1

unless we can sign him for 6Y$90M, in which case I’d rather have that. It just seems like that might be off the table.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

doesn't your explanantion

support a reasoning for option 2 though?

by mattyp on Dec 15, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

which makes sense to me, btw

It not being the steroid era and all anymore, I’m not too worried about letting guys in their mid-30s who are being paid 16 million go

by mattyp on Dec 15, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I got them backwards — I had it differently before I got SBN’d and had to log back in.

Oops.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

This is what confused me.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

"I thought it was something I said," Ryan told reigning beat reporter Goold.

“He wouldn’t take my sunflower seeds. He stopped playing Madden with us. Not even a chest-bump. Then he said he was trying to be a clubhouse cancer, and we were like, ohhhh. Then we jumped in the Man Stew and watched Idol.”

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 15, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I disagree
  1. The remainder of A-Rod’s contract was not below market value, yet he still opted out. I wouldn’t presume this at all actually.
  2. You’re leaving out the part where greater value could be had on the market at the very same time as the opt out. Let’s say Allen Craig develops into a solid corner outfielder and Colby Rasmus becomes and elite CF. All of the sudden we may not need Holliday anymore at the cost we’re currently paying him — we might find a bargain FA on the market or a farm system guy to fill the other outfield spot and be better off spending money on a 3B or SP.

Flexibility is the name of the game — the opt out leaves Holliday with the flexibility if he wants to leave, but it also leaves the Cardinals with the flexibility to pay him less over the first four years of the contract. Mo would be stupid to front load the deal and then give him an opt-out — he should go with AAV through the whole deal and give Matty something to think about, or backload the contract with big money later on to make his decision really tough.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this,

which is why Theo Epstein’s OF maneuverings have frustrated me. I’m not kidding when I say he did almost exactly what I would have done: (1) acquire Jeremy Hermida (although, I might have just acquired Ryan Church instead); (2) Make a fair offer to my FA outfielder; (3) After he declines, acquire Mike Cameron and wave “goodbye” to said aging FA outfielder. (I’m leaving out John Lacket, but that’s only because I did a trip take at Legends last night when the “5 years, $85 million” flashed across the bottom of the screen.")

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather have Hermida than Church

at least if I’m Theo:

  1. He’s 25, Church is 31.
  2. He’s still got some potential yet as a hitter — we’ve pretty much seen what Church can do.
  3. He’s slugged .500 at the big league level, Church hasn’t come close to that.
  4. His walk rate last year was near 12%, which makes him a pretty valuable player if he can become a 3TO guy.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

There's some merit...

in your second point, but it relies on chance to be beneficial to the club.

The first is simply wrong. When A-Rod opted out he was signed to a 3/81. He then resigned on the market for 10/275.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Um -- again

what about 3Y$81M isn’t market value! Name a current position player that’s making $27M per season? Oh, right, there isn’t one. It’s not like he was guaranteed 10Y$275 when he opted out. He could have gotten less money, actually. What if the stock market had imploded in November of 2007?

Also, when you look at it, 10Y$275M is actually only $0.5M more AAV than what he was currently signed for, so he wasn’t “undervalued” in the market — he ended up signing for the exact same value.

You can make the argument that he wouldn’t have gotten a similar value contract three years later, and that’s a good argument to make, but you can’t argue that he did it because he was being paid less than market value when he was the top paid player in the game by a wide margin AND he ended up getting nearly the exact same value when he resigned.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Other considerations:

What if his steroid use had come out in 2007?

His milestone bonsuses.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think we're...

on the same page with regard to valuing contracts. When a player – let’s take ARod – decides whether to opt-out of a contract or not, he looks at what he’s got and what he thinks he’ll get on the market and picks the larger of the two. That’s what he did – 10/275 is bigger than 3/81.

This is why opt-outs benefit players, if their contracts drop below market levels, they can go. Just like JD Drew voided a 3/33 for a 5/70 and Burnett voided a 2/24 for a 5/83. In all three of these instances, the teams would have been better off if those guys hadn’t left via the opt-out. Even if the Jays had wanted to shed salary at all costs, they could’ve traded Burnett because teams would have perceived significant surplus value in getting him for 2/24.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 15, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that you are taking a generality and applying it to Holliday.

I don’t think you and fourstick necessarily disagree here. Obviously, A-Rod is able to get a longer and higher-dollar contract by opting out of his deal with the Yankees (even if the Yankees orgnaization was essentially negotiating with itself). That is better for A-Rod. It is also better for A-Rod to collect $27.5MM for the final two years of the deal if he were injured severely prior to those years, as opposed to the likely “make good” deal he would receive were he to hit the market.

With Holliday, what folks are saying is, that in a best-case scenario, we give him an opt-out after four years. Holliday rakes for the Cardinals for those four years. Then, just as he is about to enter his non-PED-prevented decline, he opts out and signs a long, high-dollar deal on the market. “Good-bye and good luck. Thanks for the memories.” is the sentiment from a lot of folks here. Basically, we get a four-year deal with great production and wave good-bye when he opts out for more money. This line of thinking seems to play down the injury risk, which the Cardinals shoulder exclusively.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 15, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

I’m basically saying that:

  1. The injury risk in the first four years is the same, opt out or not.
  2. The injury risk after the first four years is quite different if he’s no longer here, and is in, say, a Cub uniform or something.
  3. I think everyone would rather have him on a 4Y$64M contract, which is essentially what this is barring a devastating injury (which the contract will be insured against anyway), than on an 8Y$128M contract.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

You are making two assumptions that aren't valid. . .

1) that an opt-out contract would have the same AAV if it did not have an opt-out – it would have to be a really stupid GM that would give an opt out without getting something back in return

2) what you describe as “market level” isn’t the same thing as what a player is worth to every team

Opt outs are far more complex decisions than your typical player option year because the player is giving up something of far more speculative worth (i.e. 3-5 years at a relatively high salary vs. 1 year at a relatively high salary)

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 15, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think we're quite on the same page, actually

Holliday will be 33 years old by the 2013 offseason, when said opt-out could be exercised. Very few players are better than 4 WAR productive, outside of the steroid era, after their age 34 season. This would be an argument for a opt-out after 5 seasons, but the point is that we’re then not on the hook for his years of decline. Sure, he could be worth more than $16M in 2014 dollars even in his decline years, but we could take that $16M, add $4M to it, and go out and get another Matt Holliday type FA in 2014 who will produce 5-6 WAR for us over that time. You’re simply ignoring this option, and it’s a real option. Of any big market team, the Boston Red Sox understand this explicitly, which is why they don’t give out contracts over 5 years long.

Also:

  1. You won’t just be able to “trade” Holliday. He’ll have a no-trade clause, and he’ll get to pick where to go. We might actually be better off with the opt-out then trying to deal him.
  2. Holliday isn’t going to have a ton of negotiating leverage at age 33 or 34. So if the contract pays him accordingly, he’ll probably stay. It’s a risk for him to enter the market again in his twilight years, as more front offices will (hopefully) be embracing better evaluation tools in 4-5 years.
  3. If he gets hurt for the 3rd and 4th years, yes, we’re probably fucked — but no more fucked than we would be on a full 8 year contract with no opt out.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Furthermore

What about Option 1 is good for the ballclub? 8Y at $16M AAV per season, a no-trade clause, and no way out of the contract for either side?

If it takes 8Y to sign him, then I say give him the opt out after 4Y and negotiate a lower AAV. He’ll think he’s winning, but really, both sides win, especially if he opts out.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 15, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

which is why i argued for hermida last winter

could have been had cheap

which would have left us not in the current dialog, ie, talking about something else, like lackey

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 15, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

But market value is only half the equation.

Sure, if Matt Holliday is planning on opting out, it will likely be because he thinks he can get more on the open market. However, that doesn’t actually mean he’ll be worth even what he’s already getting, much less the new amount. How much he should actually be getting paid on the basis of his production and how much he’ll get from someone on the market aren’t necessarily the same things.

And even if he’s worth every penny of what he gets paid between now and then, an opt-out makes it less likely the Cardinals are going to have to pay for his decline years. Personally, I think an opt-out is a fantastic idea.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 1:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Having a player signed...

to a below market deal is an asset b/c you can trade them for value. Now if they have an iron-clad no trade clause, you can’t, but I don’t think Holliday will. He might have a limited no-trade clause. Drew and Burnett didn’t have complete NTCs in their contracts; ARod did, so we’ll see.

The bottom line: it’s never a good thing to lose a player with a below market contract. Can anyone here provide an example of a player opting out of a contract and having that be a good thing for club?

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 16, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

His declining years.....

May still very well be worth $16M, or less if the contract is front-loaded. If those last two years are for $12M, that’ll end up being a steal, in my opinion.

And if it isn’t, one reasonably bad contract shoudn’t kill us, for a year, or even two. We did okay with Glaus being out completely and being paid a fortune this year.

Matt Holliday. Nuff said.

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 15, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

i doubt anyone will

pay 16m for a dh when mh is 35, which is what he will be by then

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 15, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

At what rate do we expect his defense to decline?

I’m just curious not trying to comment on this.

(Insert Your Own Joke)

by AWolfAtTheDoor on Dec 15, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

the overwhelming historical trend is that money is worth less in years further in the future.
If those last two years are for $12M, that’ll end up being a steal, in my opinion.

that sentence makes no sense. given a fixed $128M paid out, backloading makes more sense. if we pay less in year 8, we must be paying more in earlier years. the contract is going to make sense or not make sense as a whole; whether one individual year makes sense doesn’t describe whether we should make the deal, especially when it necessarily involves shifting money to the earlier years.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 15, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Basic economic theory, really.

It’s why anyone in financial planning will tell you 401K’s and the like are some of your best friends for long-term wealth building: the future is cheap.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 16, 2009 1:50 AM EST up reply actions  

401k's and IRA's (specifically the Roth IRA)

Are good because they provide you tax free compound interest for your investments. You pay not taxes on the 401k until you pull it out, you pay taxes on the income you receive before investing it in the IRA, then only pay taxes on the gains as you pull it out when you are near retirement. A savvy middle class investor will have both a 401k, if available, and a ROTH IRA, maxing out the 401k to take advantage of the tax savings immediately, while investing some of their savings in the Roth to offset the taxes they will pay on the 401k after age 59.

This has nothing to do with the “future being cheap”; it has everything to do with the price of the same goods being more expensive in the future, due to inflation. In order to build wealth, you need compound interest to outperform the CPI’s inflation over the years that you have it invested.

You’ve kinda got this backwards. The future is always more expensive due to inflation, it’s never cheaper — if it is, then there is deflation going on, and that’s not good for any economy anywhere.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 16, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Compound interest

is the most powerful force in the universe.

"When I knocked a guy down, there was no second part to the story." - Bob Gibson

by ducttape16 on Dec 16, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The future is cheap because you can buy it for pennies on the dollar now.

Not that things themselves are cheaper in the future, but that what you have now, if properly invested, will be worth more in the future. Thus, the future is cheaper than the present.

Here comes the funcooker!

by the red baron on Dec 17, 2009 2:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

Mo has to do something to make the STL offer stand apart.

I imagine if it is truly an offer for 8 years, the front 2-3 years are loaded, and then it evens out some. That in anticipation of an Albert raise.

I really don’t see a 4 year opt-out as being something that Holliday would take advantage of, UNLESS this contract is severly front-loaded.

Matt Holliday. Nuff said.

by SoonerfanTU on Dec 15, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

...

http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2009/10/22/1095619/jason-bay-vs-matt-holliday-bill

7/108

And I came up with a similar valuation in a comment a while back.

8/150 is way too high

by vivaelpujols on Dec 15, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Couple points

1) I don’t trust park adjustments for Colorado and Holliday takes a huge hit for that.
2) The 85% playing time adjustment seems conservative given Holliday’s record of health and lack of any (known) lingering conditions.
3) I absolutely detest the AL/NL alleged discrepancy and any adjustments based on that. I think it’s a vast overstatement of disparity and one that is difficult to adjust for on an individual basis given an individual’s specific skillsets.
4) devil_fingers shows a projection for 4.3 WAR with a valuation of 7 years and 122M. So 3 runs makes a 14M dollar difference in total valuation. I trust that the Cardinals have metrics that are either a) better or b) different to validate a discrepancy based on a 3 run projection difference for 2010.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Dec 15, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

A couple rebuttles
I don’t trust park adjustments for Colorado and Holliday takes a huge hit for that.

On what basis? Most people believe that Holliday should be penalized much more given his huge home/road split. The park adjustments d_f’s uses are 5 year and regressed, I believe. Their about the most conservative park adjustments you could get for Holliday.

The 85% playing time adjustment seems conservative given Holliday’s record of health and lack of any (known) lingering conditions.

WAR is projected out to 150 games. 85% playing time has him at 130. That’s a little bit too conservative given Holliday’s health record, but it also factors in possible injuries. If it’s too conservative than it’s only by 5 games or so.
I absolutely detest the AL/NL alleged discrepancy and any adjustments based on that. I think it’s a vast overstatement of disparity and one that is difficult to adjust for on an individual basis given an individual’s specific skillsets.

There has been a boatload of studies that suggest that the AL is far superior than the NL. The simple fact that, despite having the DH, the AL has the same league ERA as the NL should be enough to show that they are a better pitching league.
devil_fingers shows a projection for 4.3 WAR with a valuation of 7 years and 122M. So 3 runs makes a 14M dollar difference in total valuation. I trust that the Cardinals have metrics that are either a) better or b) different to validate a discrepancy based on a 3 run projection difference for 2010.

One of those projections is for James, the other is for d_f. They effectively represent the low and high ends of Hollidays possible worth. 8/150 is well past the high end.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 15, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

1) I don’t trust them on the fact that they are notoriously difficult to apply with any degree of accuracy especially in the specific (aggregate is easier). Holliday was in the top 20 last year for true distance of homeruns according to hit tracker. His power wasn’t a mirage of Colorado. The home/road split is garbage because you’ve argued against it yourself — I’m not a believer in the split so unless you’re suddenly advocating it, let’s leave that aside.

2) 150 games is a choice not some industry standard. I think that’s too conservative but that’s purely an opinion.

3) There hasn’t been a “boatload” there’s been a handful. I shouldn’t have even brought it up though because it doesn’t penalize Holliday in this instance as much as it rewards Bay.

4) 8/150 isn’t “well past the high end” because even slight valuation changes in his 2010 worth have repercussions on every year following. A 3 run valuation difference between two projection systems resulted in a 14M total salary difference.

I’ve got Holliday as a 5 WAR player moving forward — just 7 runs higher — but it makes a huge difference in the final number I come up with.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Dec 15, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

I’m using $5M/WAR going forward. I’m not an economist so I have no idea if that’s what the market will be running to. The 5 WAR valuation is the important part, imo, though.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Dec 15, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

position players who produced 5 WAR or better in their mid 30's last year

war leaders

ichiro (36)
jeter (35)
d. lee (34)

that’s a pretty short list (i may be missing some people based on wrong perceptions of age). as far as i can tell, everybody else is either under 30 or just over it (30, 31, 32). there’s a real chance holliday is more a 3 to 4 WAR player in a few years.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 15, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

At some point

arguing about home/road splits across a league average should defer to this actual player.

Simply put, Matt Holliday is a great player in Coors Field (357/422/643), and merely a good player away from there (295/354/475). No small sample-size issues to worry about there, either. Certainly, there are issues with extrapolating Holliday’s road numbers while Coors was his home field to being his home numbers at another park, particularly one like Busch where he has historically hit well. . . but it ain’t 68 points of OBP and a whopping 138 points of slugging.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 15, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

The Coors Field issue for Holliday isn't really HRs, FWIW

the issue is that Coors’ huge expanse of OF inflates batting average, particularly the old, pre-humidor Coors.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 15, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

For which Holliday was NOT around, for the most part

Coors Field plays much more like a normal field now and has for several years.

"Haywood leads the league in all offensive categories, including nose hair. When this guy sneezes, he looks like a party favor." - Harry Doyle

by Futility Infielder on Dec 15, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

So Rob Neyer just posted an article about Strauss' article

The thing I don’t get is Neyer is suggesting that Chone Figgins is as good as Evan Longoria and Ryan Zimmerman.