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The NL Central Offseason Revue: Ursine Children

Sure, I've used it before. It's a good picture, damn it.

Sure, I've used it before. It's a good picture, damn it.

 But first, a story. (Just so you know it's a Baron post.)

Last weekend, my mother and I went shopping. The Cherokee Street Antique Row Association was holding their annual Cookie Spree, and we go every year. There's always people milling around, free hot apple cider, and most of the shops are decorated.

We met up in South County, deciding it was a better idea to take one car. Mom tends to get motion sickness when not driving, so I generally just ride with her. We headed up 55 toward the city, then exited at the 4500 block of Broadway.

At the bottom of the ramp was an old woman holding a sign. A square of cardboard scrawled all over in black marker, I couldn't read exactly what was written but the message was clear nonetheless. It was cold out, and the ragged old overcoat she was clutching around her looked woefully inadequate. I've been conned before, I'm sure, but this was no panhandler. This was an old woman with no place to go who badly needed help.

We came to a stop at the bottom of the ramp, and I dug out my wallet. Mom reached for her purse, and I told her I would get it. I opened my wallet and grabbed the first two bills in it, a ten and a twenty. Then, guided by some internal calculus I don't at all understand, I put the ten back. I handed my mother the twenty, she motioned the old woman over, and gave it to her. The old woman said something, toothless mouth moving quickly, blessing us and wishing us well, but by then the car was moving and I couldn't entirely tell what it was. We continued on our way, had hot chocolate and apple cider and cookies. I bought an antique light fixture; it seemed like a fine day.

I tell you all this not to make you think I'm some sort of saint for giving this old woman twenty dollars, but because ever since then I haven't been able to stop thinking about the ten dollars I didn't give her. I had almost $300 in my wallet that day, and a credit card nowhere near the limit to boot. In no way, shape, or form would that extra ten dollars have hurt me, yet I put it back. And worst of all, I don't understand why. I like to think I would do whatever it takes to help someone in need, but apparently that only goes so far. Apparently there's a price on my generosity, and it's painfully low. A truly good person would have been willing to hand over everything they had in hand and never thought twice about it; I certainly didn't need another antique to litter my already cluttered house.

We went back the same way later, on the way back to my car, but the old woman was gone. I hope what I gave her was enough to help, but I can't stop thinking about that moment, when I arbitrarily decided the limits of how much I was willing to help another human being.

Star-divide

I've had these posts in mind for a while now, trying to take a look around the division at our rivals and what their offseasons might look like, but simply hadn't had the chance to do so yet. With my inability to post a full post on Wednesday, I thought I might ask Dan if he minded me taking today. He seemed amenable to the idea, unsurprising given the dearth of real meat to work with this time of year and what is undoubtedly a crowded schedule for everyone. So here I am, telling you what the Cubs need to do this winter.

I begin with the Cubs because they are our chief rivals and also because it simply fits. We care more about the Cubs. So here we are.

As the Cubbies head into their first offseason with new ownership, the question of payroll undoubtedly must be raised. Their new owner, Tom Ricketts, has pledged to update the stadium and build a winner, but just how much one will impact the other remains to be seen. For now, it looks as if Ricketts is willing to pour money into the franchise in order to win, and we'll have to operate under that assumption.

Offense

The Cubs' offense took a huge hit last season from the high times of 2008, due to several players underperforming. Alfonso Soriano was the biggest culprit, stumbling to an OPS+ of 84 after three seasons over 115. Geovany Soto went through an awful sophomore slump, falling from a 118 OPS+ to 79. Aramis Ramirez missed significant time with a shoulder injury, and Derrek Lee struggled mightily early in the season before turning it around.

There were bright spots, such as the improvement Kosuke Fukudome made from his first season in the majors or the continued non-suckitude of Ryan Theriot, but overall it was an intensely disappointing season for Chicago at the plate. In 2008 the Cubs scored 855 runs; in 2009 they plated only 707. Enough said.

Starting Pitching

If the Cubs' offense was decidedly disappointing, the pitching was underwhelmingly good. Carlos Zambrano continued his human roller coaster act, yet still managed to post an ERA under 4.00 for the eighth straight year. Nonetheless, the Big Z is no longer quite the intimidating force at the front of a rotation he once was. He's still solid, but he doesn't really scare you anymore. (Well, unless you happen to be something edible or punchable in the dugout, that is.)

Ryan Dempster fell off from his 2008 performance, but was still a plus pitcher for Chicago. He was awful much of the early portion of the year, but came on strong late to lower his ERA to 3.65. Dempster provides much-needed innings, and at a reasonably high level. After Z and Dumpster, though, things get a bit murkier.

Ted Lilly, a relatively unsung contributor to the Cubs' back-to-back division titles, has had shoulder surgery already this offseason. It was minor shoulder surgery, yes, but then again, I'm not entirely sure there is such a thing. Lilly was absolutely brilliant in 2009, posting a 3.61 FIP, but until he can prove his shoulder is unequivocally sound, he has to be a concern.

 Perhaps the brightest spot of all for the Cubs in '09 was the performance of their rookie hurler, Randy Wells. He went 12-10, 3.05 in his first extended taste of the majors at 27. His peripherals were mostly in line as well, so it doesn't appear he did it all with smoke and mirrors. Still, Wells is a relatively unknown commodity, and may simply be waiting until the time is right to give up a crippling home run, then rip open his jersey, revealing the Cardinal jersey underneath. So there's that.

The Cubs' fifth starter spot was, for the most part, a disaster. Sean Marshall continued to impersonate Sean Marshall. The Cubs acquired Tom Gorzelanny from the Pirates, and he picked up basically where he left off in Pittsburgh. There were positives in his performance, but for the most part it was another disappointing season for the man once voted Most Likely to Actually Live Up to His Billing  among all Pittsburgh left-handed starting prospects.

Relief

Carlos Marmol is sort of the pitching equivalent of a British motorcycle. Yeah, it's a whole lot of fun when it's working, and it certainly looks impressive, but damned if the thing isn't broken down and spilling oil all over your driveway more often than not. Marmol has some of the nastiest stuff in the game, but not much idea where it's going a fair amount of the time. Hitters did a much better job of laying off his slider in 2009, and he had a tough time throwing it for strikes. He still struck out a bunch of hitters (93 in 74 innings), and didn't give up many hits (43), but he also walked 65 hitters, leading to a 1.46 WHIP fueled almost entirely by batters simply standing there and doing nothing.

Kevin Gregg was solid, though not the force the Cubs were undoubtedly hoping for, and he has now departed via free agency. Angel Guzman was impressive, combining a repertoire just a step down from Marmol's with actual control, but he remains very young and was shut down late in the season with an injury. Neal Cotts was, um, how do I put this?- shitty, only to be replaced as the primary lefty by John Grabow. Grabow did what he always does, and should be a definite plus in the 'pen for 2010.

Jeff Samardzija continued his enigmatic career arc, following up his 2.28 ERA in 2008 with a 7.53 in 2009. Sure, he's talented, but at some point Samardzija is going to have to come up with something more than a big fastball and a passing resemblance to Andy Samberg if he wants to succeed at the major league level.

Needs

Any discussion of the Chicago Cubs' offseason has to begin with the outfield, where they badly need to figure things out. Milton Bradley wasn't a bad player for them in 2009; on the contrary, he was probably still their best outfielder, but all signs point to him being dealt this offseason, and I'm not sure I can blame the Cubs. As much as Bradley wasn't the problem with the team this year, I just don't know if his relationship with the fans, not to mention his teammates, is a tenable one.

If Bradley is dealt, the Cubs will have to come up with someone to try and replicate his offensive contributions, and several names have been floated. Rick Ankiel was thought to be their first choice until fairly recently, but things seem to have cooled slightly on that front since Scott Boras made his comments about multiple years and big dollars for Swingin' Dick's services. The Cubs don't seem to have much interest in Matt Holliday, perhaps being a bit gun shy after witnessing how horribly wrong a seven-year deal for an outfielder can go. They also haven't been mentioned all that much in the Jason Bay sweepstakes, so I have to assume they're looking at lower-hanging fruit.

Beyond the outfield, it's somewhat doubtful the Cubs will be able to make any substantial upgrades to their offense. Both corner infield positions are set, and rightfully so. Soto will be looking for a bounceback season; it's far too early to write him off as a one-year wonder. The only spots the Cubs could look to upgrade are the middle infield positions, but I'm not sure how much help is really available at those spots this offseason. Perhaps the Cubbies get involved in trying to trade for Dan Uggla? They do have an exciting young middle infield prospect in the pipeline named Starlin Castro, who has garnered plenty of comparisons to Edgar Renteria, and could draw interest from Florida, but little beyond that.

The bullpen has to be an area of concern, and priority one has to be sorting out who will at least begin the season as the Chicago closer. Marmol, I'm sure, will have the inside track on the job, but after his 2009 performance it shouldn't be a foregone conclusion. I doubt the Cubs will go outside the organisation to find a stopper, but it's likely they'll try to acquire at least an arm or two to bolster the overall depth of the 'pen.

Priorities

  1. Deal with Milton Bradley situation. Trade is most likely outcome.
  2. Acquire offensive upgrade to replace Bradley's production. Left-handed hitter would be desirable.  
  3. Shore up bullpen, likely through trades. (Bradley?)
  4. Look at other possible offensive upgrades, i.e. Uggla or Mark DeRosa as utility player.
  5. Acquire 5th starter/ insurance arm for Ted Lilly.
  6. ???
  7. World Series title.

The Bottom Line

The Cubs are by no means in dire straights. They underachieved badly last season, but the offense should receive a boost from a full season from Ramirez and, hopefully, better years from Soriano, Soto, and Lee. The same can't really be said for the pitching, which performed right about where one would expect, given the talent level. The starting rotation will remain their biggest strength, while the bullpen remains somewhat suspect.

At this point, the Cubs have to be considered the Cards' main competition for the division again in 2009. Both teams are clearly a step or two ahead of the pack.

There you go, folks. One in the can, four to go.

The Baron's Playlist for the 11th of December, 2009

"The Blizzard" - Camera Obscura   A cover of the Jim Reeves/ Johnny Cash classic. Any CO fans out there (and I know there are some), you might want to check out their holiday 7" release, with the Blizzard backed by Swans. 

"My Wife and My Dead Wife" - Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians

"Oh You Pretty Things" - Peter Noone   I just heard this on Pop! The Beat Bubble Bursts yesterday morning, and I can't stop listening to it. It's a Bowie cover by the former Herman's Hermits frontman, and it has a bit of an early Harry Nilsson vibe to it. Really great.

"Intermezzo Sinfonico" from Mascagni's Cavalleria Rusticana - James Levine

"Take On Me" - A.C. Newman    Another tip of the hat to KDHX, this time to Nick Acquisto and the Space Parlour. Outstanding cover of the A-Ha classic.

 Edit: And, of course, on the day I write this, some actual news comes down the pipeline, as the Cardinals have now apparently made an official offer to Scott Boras and Matt Holliday. Sigh. They couldn't have waited just one more day? Really?

0 recs  |  Comment 208 comments |

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Frith

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 11, 2009 3:06 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks

He’s not a bad painter either. Totally nerdy linkage if anybody is interested: William Powell Frith

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 14, 2009 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh man

Thank god you don’t live in my neighborhood in San Francisco, baron. I walk less than 10 blocks to work and get asked for change easily 5 times on the way to and from work every single day, day in and day out.

Suffice it to say I’ve also struggled with defining my own generosity. I give, but not often. But also, if I gave $30 to every genuinely down-on-their-luck person I see every day, I’d be broke in a matter of days. So where’s the limit? I don’t know.

by mojowo11 on Dec 11, 2009 3:12 PM EST reply actions  

"Why lie? It's for beer!"

See enough homeless folks and you start to realize there are a variety of different tactics for signs. One of them is the funny sign. Then there’s the sad sign, the hopeful sign (“Homeless, not hopeless”), the really-long-story sign…

Recently I saw a homeless guy who had trained his dog to sit and hold a sign saying, “Need money for new leash and bones.” The dog was unbelievably cute. It was pretty brilliant, using the dog that way — just in the time I walked by, I saw three people give him change. People are suckers for animals.

by mojowo11 on Dec 11, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

This one always gets me.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 11, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

wasnt it chris rock

who said “if a homeless guy has a funny sign, he probably hasnt been homeless for very long”

by krippledmaster on Dec 11, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds about right

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Dec 11, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I was there last summer...

…and saw that exact sign. I liked it.

There was another guy on Fisherman’s Wharf who had a bunch of plant fronds and would hide in them, then jump out and scare people. If he “got” someone, you had to give him a buck. He got a few people, not me fortunately.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm very gunshy about giving money on the street nowadays.

I live in Evansville, IN, and a couple of years ago I heard about some people who have jobs and pose as beggers to subliment their income (not cool!). Heard they make a extra couple hundred a week doing it. I also never fill out the cards they want to give you at gas stations, restraruants, etc, for donating. I don’t think I need my name on a wall because I donated a couple of bucks.
   Regarding Holliday’s market value, it’s definitely gone down with the Yankees, Mets, Angels, and hopefully Sox staying out of it. Hopefully we can get him for 6/100 or something around that. I have a bad feeling that the Sox are going to swoop in and outbid us because of the Granderson trade the Yankees just pulled off.

by thp0344 on Dec 11, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess you are no a Franciscan then (double entendre)?

RB, I appreciate the fact that you were actually bothered by the fact that you didn’t give the other $10. I think most of us are just totally insulated from the need that’s around us. If not for the folks in my synagogue and at work that give me opportunities to give to others, I wonder if I would ever take the initiative to seek out those in need.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 11, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

So if Bay is going to sign...

for 4/65 or 5/75, then I predict the Holliday offer to be…. 6/100?? That seems low, but the market has kind of gone south on him.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 11, 2009 3:13 PM EST reply actions  

I think this makes sense.

Until the Yankees or Red Sox start any real negotiations with Holliday or make a contract offer to him, I think we’re the favorites.

Also, we’ve apparently made an offer.

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Dec 11, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, any speculation on the numbers?

I bet they didn’t offer 6 years. I bet its more like 5/85.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Dec 11, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I really am at a loss as to what we might have offered

But basically no matter what, I’d be shocked if Holliday takes it considering how many other teams are out there willing to bid for his services.

by mojowo11 on Dec 11, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

As would I.

It strikes me that Mo is likely forcing the action with the previously stated motivation of moving on to Plan B if Holliday isn’t genuinely interested.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I honestly think that there aren't that many other teams out there

To me, it’s us or the Mets

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 11, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

The Red Sox are lurking.

I fear that we may be the Red Sox to Holliday’s Teixeira this Hot Stove, left in the cold after the big-spending franchise reveals itself at the 11th hour.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Red Sox could still get involved, or the Yankees if they can't nail down Damon's deal

And it’s a long winter, you never know when some owner is going to have a change of heart (looking at you, Arte Moreno) and decide they want the best available bat after all. I just can’t see Holliday taking a deal now.

by mojowo11 on Dec 11, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

didn't the Mets make an offer to Jason Bay?

I heard 4/65. if that’s true, then I think its really just the Sawks to worry about. I think the Yanks will resign The Bourne Leftfielder.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Dec 11, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I see what you did there

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on Dec 11, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Johnny Damon

has been called Matt Damon enough on this board over the last couple of weeks. I decided it was time to give JD a new name, to avoid further confusion.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Dec 11, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I remain astounded that everyone seems to think the yankees are out on holliday

they’re the Yankees. They wipe their asses on $100 bills and sleep on reinforced waterbeds filled with molten gold. They also need a left fielder. Holliday is the best left fielder on the market. Steinbrenner/Cashman are yet to appear on TV saying “we have no interest in Matt Holliday and will, under no circumstances, be involved in bidding for his services”.

I just don’t see how they’re “out”.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 13, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

where's Hardcore Legend at?

we need him to break the story on what the formal offer was

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on Dec 11, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

How much is the approximate value of the Holliday picks?

I think someone did an estimate of how much the BoSox’s picks are worth is they sign Holliday. Was it around $5M?

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 11, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it depends on where the pick is

If it’s the Yankees it’s the last pick in the first round. The nice thing is that he’s the top rated FA, so we would get a #1 regardless of how many Type A’s the signing team signs.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 11, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

So the #20 pick in the first round received by BoSox from ATL for the Billy Wagner signing is worth?
The sandwich pick to us is worth? I assume that the top Type A ranking also means the highest sandwich pick? Now, now let’s not start thinking about food here.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 11, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I would guess an unprotected pick

is worth in the range of $4M to $5M, depending on where the pick is. I think supplemental picks are generally valued in the $1M range or so.

I can’t remember who did the analysis on this, but someone did it, and I think it was at THT.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 11, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Everything so far in this soap opera

has done nothing to dispel the possibility that Holliday told Boras “I’m going back to the Birds, get me the best deal you can.” If that is true, and the Cards are either : (a) telling the truth about moving on to Plan B if Hollidayt doesn’t move soon, (b) bluffing and risking being called, then we should know by early next week. FWIW, in Mo’s interview with Bernie, he left some wiggle room of “mid next week” before moving on to Plan B.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

we know he's not gonna accept a low-ball offer from us

and Mozeliak and DeWitt have expressed that they have a limit in mind and aren’t going to get drawn into a bidding war and exceed it. I don’t think I’d have a problem with them just offering that max (as long as it’s within or very near the scope of what’s generally been discussed as reasonable on this site) and saying take it or leave it.

by mattyp on Dec 11, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm kind of assuming that is what they are doing at this point

As in, this is as far as we think we can go, let’s offer it to him and if he declines then just move on to plan B and forget about it. The options for plan B will only continue to lessen as the off-season moves on so there is some logic in resolving the issue.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 11, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure that their preliminary discussions were a feeling out process.

If there was a Grand Canyon-sized gulf between the Cards and Holliday, I don’t think they’d further low-ball him.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Why do we know that?

Assuming of course, that by low-ball offer you don’t mean something ridiculous like 1 year, $10M or something.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

What if we toss in all the pie he can eat?

"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols

by splhcb67 on Dec 11, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

With a sixth year option for cobbler

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 11, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Great Post, as usual.

Ummm….you gotta 20 spot cud loan me?

;=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 11, 2009 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

Tasty and Full of Fiber!

besides, we like a little pizza and root beer every now and then. Pizza with xtra hay!
:=8D

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 11, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Just think of the headline puns next season, if Holliday signs

We have Freese, Holliday, Penny, and Carpenter. Amazing potential there. And to think it could all begin within two weeks and the headline: “Happy Holliday; Slugger Chooses Cardinals.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:21 PM EST reply actions  

"Ho, Ho, Ho, you're on the naughty list" (?)

Re-thinking it, the pun headline should start today: “Cards Begin Holliday Shopping; Make Formal Offer.”

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Cardinals win the Holliday Bowl

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Dec 11, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Cross sports pun... always fun

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Dec 11, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

ha

Tiger sure does have all these girls popping out of the wood works. I swear baby you are the only one I love. Than bam run into one tree and they all start falling down.

by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 11, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Like I said

If you’re gonna cheat, might as well do it big. What’s the difference between 1 and 100? If anything you’re more believable in saying those other 100 didn’t matter!

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 11, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't even know what that means

Are you quoting “Poor Richard’s Almanac” or some other centuries old volume?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

That's Up There With...

… the famous German Au Pair, Herr Ramus B Dragon

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 11, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's my prediction:

This Spring a Freese will settle in on the 3rd rock of Jupiter and a mad Carpenter will pound a Penny, cast from the land of the Giants, into a gem. All of this will be revealed in full When the Holliday end its silent slumber and the Bor’s have been silenced into acquiesence.

by ADMDrayson on Dec 11, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

"Cardinals stay Penny-wise this Holliday"

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Dec 11, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

red's boss's at the RFT agree

here & full size pic here

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

The Cubs

I firmly believe that they could easily win the division next year. I think that Soto is a prime bounceback candidate. I think that Lee is likely to have a good season and Ramirez, too. The only big question mark to me, is Soriano. How old is he in actuality? If they can shore up their ’pen in the Bradley trade (with Soriano the former Brave/new Ray?), as RB suggests, they will be in good shape. That is, unless we sign Matt Holliday. Then St. Louis will return to its rightful spot as NL Central overlord.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:28 PM EST reply actions  

One rotation spot, the bullpen, and the bench.

And, possibly, an OF position. I think the rotation slot will be filled internally. The OF is interesting. I wonder what they will do. Nady?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

They're the Cubs.

They were born to lose.

There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK

by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 12, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Cubs

I like Soto to bounce back.

Lee is overrated and on the downside of his career.

I also like Soriano to bounce back.

A lot of the Cubs’ off-season story is left unwritten so far, with the big question being what they get back from a Bradley trade.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Soto

I wonder about him. As I recall, he showed little power throughout the minors until 2007, when he suddenly went homer happy. He continued that in the majors in 2008, but it disappeared in 2009. Though homers are obviously not everything, such info brings up the possibility he may be a one-year wonder.

by CRay on Dec 11, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Soto isn't a great bet to break 20 HRs again.

Much of his HR-happiness was due to a very high HR/FB rate. His patience is still pretty good, and he’s not striking out too much. He lost 80 points of BABIP, so he’ll probably make up some (but not all- he’s fat) of that. He’s due to be above average.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 11, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

that.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 13, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

depends who is doing the rating

Cubs fan = best 1B ever (probably downgraded a bit as of late)
Other fan = old dude who has no more power

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on Dec 11, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I hear he is a completely stand-up good guy and while I hope he never does well for the Cubs

my young cousin (who is a Cubs fan) met him and worships him kind of like I did for Ozzie and while I realize he is young, naive and unfortunately starstruck I can’t be too hard on Lee

by ADMDrayson on Dec 11, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

he's the tallest 1stbaseman so therefore he's the best

it’s science or something

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think you're reaching a bit calling Lee overrated

He’s had a strange last four years. His wOBAs, in order, were .360, .391, .360, and a whopping .412. His BABIP has been no lower than .330 in any of those seasons, his ISO has never been lower than .172. He’s a good player, and I don’t think anyone outside of Chicago or a few national media types view him as anything more than just a really solid hitter.

Last year was an excellent season, one of the better of his career. He hit 35 HR and had a .412 wOBA. Pretty good stuff.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

Derrek Lee is a good hitter and a good first basemen. Top of five in the NL, for sure. He’s had some injury issues which contributed to his relative lack of power for a couple of seasons.

In short, he is a solid player.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 12, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

Derek Lee is very good… perhaps the overrated part comes in when Cubs fans say he is better at defense than Pujols. other than that I can’t see why he’d be overrated. plus he’s had to deal with some injuries.

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, as fun as it was to watch the Cubs struggle last year, that was basically a gift.

They do have offseason needs just like most teams, but they’re not exactly in a terrible position. They could be really good again in 2010, easily. I think the real question is in the next few years as all their stars keep getting older and decline more.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 11, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't think so

and props to Red for doing something i could never, ever do. write an honest, some might even say glowing article about those over hyped, always overrated losers on the north side. i think they are old & busted & a shoe in to fight for fourth place in the division for many years to come. someone is going to bend them over in the bradley trade, if they can even trade him. i wouldn’t take one of their players over anyone at the same position on the red or brew crew. let alone our team. last season showed who they really are, and over payed, old team that won’t win anything.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

last feb when i was looking for my dads brick at the stadium

a couple homeless people came up to me & my aunt. i just blew them off & told them i didn’t have any money. they were polite about it & left us alone. but literally the second we got out of the car they were in our face asking for money. that had never happened to me before. it was kind of a shock how aggressive they were.

i’m such a bleeding heart though if my aunt wasn’t there i probably would have given them everything in my wallet. i’m 6, every time i see a homeless person i get this pain in the pit of my stomach for them. i want to tell them to get in the car & take them home, give them a nice meal & some money & try & help them find a job. many years ago my grandma told me my grandpa used to always pick up hitch hikers every time he saw one & always gave them some money. so at least i know where it comes from.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Externalities in baseball

This is an idea that I’ve been tinkering with in my brain. I don’t know how to properly explain it, but can there be a way to quantify these externalities?

For example, an externality of high team OBP is that starting pitchers have to throw a lot of pitches, which means that we get to the bullpen earlier, which has generally weaker pitchers, which makes the offense seem even stronger

An offense with a high team SLG will tend to put crooked numbers on the board, which has basically the same effect as high OBP, but for different reasons

Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'

by mysterui on Dec 11, 2009 3:31 PM EST reply actions  

Yes to the first (although I think the effect is smaller than you would hope). . .

No to the second (assuming you mean high SLG and a less impressive OBP), because you will end up with a lot of goose eggs and 7 pitch innings, too.

Fortunately, OBP and SLG aren’t either/or propositions, and you need both, ideally, but. . .

OBP is life. . . life is OBP.

by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmmmm
For example, an externality of high team OBP is that starting pitchers have to throw a lot of pitches, which means that we get to the bullpen earlier, which has generally weaker pitchers, which makes the offense seem even stronger

Yes. This was the strategy of most of the Yankee teams over the last 10 years. Work a lot of deep counts, get into bullpens early, (Profit?!?) FWIW, I would guess the effect is provable, although it’s probably not as effective a strategy as one would think.

An offense with a high team SLG will tend to put crooked numbers on the board, which has basically the same effect as high OBP, but for different reasons

Most of the sabermetricians that I’ve read believe that OBP is between 50-100% more important than slugging is. It has also been stated that they are not mutually exclusive (i.e. being able to slug at a rate of .600 should help your OBP some if you are a patient hitter, because pitchers will be less likely to throw you strikes for fear of you leaving the yard.). So I would disagree with this notion. Teams with a .400 OBP and a .450 slugging would score more runs over 162 games than teams with a .300 OBP and a .550 SLG. Lots and lots of solo homers on that second team; Lots and lots of two run doubles on that first team.

Another thing to think about: While that slugging team will put up a lot of crooked numbers, they’ll also go stretches without putting up runs at all, whereas the high OBP team, which will surely have some sluggers on it too, will be a more consistent scoring team and will have fewer and smaller stretches of low scoring games.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 11, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

agree with all of that

also, being patient helps with SLG as well as OBP, since seeing more pitches means you are more likely to get a mistake pitch to hit.

it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie

by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

On a happy note

Soriano’s contract:

2007: $9M
2008: $13M
2009: $16M
2010-2014: $18M annually

Heh.

by mojowo11 on Dec 11, 2009 3:33 PM EST reply actions  

Really think about that.

$18MM for each of 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014. I hope Soriano gets his agent(s) nice Christmas presents, as a bonus to their share.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

In 2012?

Yes, yes. I am worried of such an outcome.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

OMG!!!!

Cow I love that anchor, I mean contract!!!
:=8D

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 11, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Hello, 38-year-old Alfonso Soriano!

That’s a rather large wheelbarrow of money you’re pushing! How lovely!

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 13, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

WARNING: RELIGIOUS CONTENT AHEAD

So skip this if it’s gonna cause you consternation…but because of my faith, I can’t remove RB’s story from that context.

That said…don’t beat yourself up, RB. You did the right thing. Maybe not the entire right thing…but see, very few of us ever do entirely “the right thing.” It’s a little thing called (according to my faith) our sinful nature. Even when God (as I believe) gives us the strength to do good to our fellow man, we still have that nature working against us, and it can still prevent us from doing ALL that we can, and instead just stops at SOME of what we can. Thankfully, God doesn’t rely on what little we do, just on what His Son did…but I’ve gone too far into religion for this site, so I’ll stop here. Again, sorry for the religious discourse (and how inadequate it might be), but there you are. I won’t reply to anything from this…not because I don’t want to debate/talk about this, but because this isn’t the right forum for that, as we all know.

"But I’m still hungry. I’ve got 10 fingers. There’s one that’s busy and I need nine more."
- Albert Pujols

by splhcb67 on Dec 11, 2009 4:05 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Uh, beer is proof that

God loves us and wants us to be happy.

"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."

--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre

by Ted Glover on Dec 11, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

My Nature Isn't Sinful....

…it’s moo-ful.

:=8P

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Dec 11, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

not because I don’t want to debate/talk about this, but because this isn’t the right forum for that, as we all know.

which begs the question, why post it? That said, we have plenty of off-topic conversations here and I think the forum is richer for it.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 13, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

That shit drives me nuts.

And it drives me nuts that no one enforces the rules. But I mostly choose to ignore.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Dec 14, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

My Two Brad Pennies:

On Holliday: I personally think that Mo offered something above the $100M threshold, simply because Boras, I’m sure, made it clear that this “Impact Bat’s Market” deserved it. But, I also think that St. Louis/Mo intentionally is withholding the terms of the offer so it cannot be shopped. I wouldn’t be surprised if Mo’s offer came with a caveat to the effect of:

Mo: “DeWitt, Myself and Albert, are the only ones who know this offer’s particulars. We all have committed to keeping this extremely confidential. Therefore, if this offer is leaked to the press, and/or used to be shopped, then it expires within 24 hours of said breach. We also will know that it is you, Mr. Boras, whom is ultimately responsible for said disclosure.”

Boras: “uh…..”

Mo: "Let it be known to Matt very plainly, that we feel he is the perfect compliment to our team, and we know that he will be a central leader/contributor for St. Louis. We cannot, however, be held hostage by his Free Agency, and must move forward to defending our Central Title, and get Albert another ring. Therefore, if we do not have the inevitability of a deal within X days, we will effectively be moving on to another strategy, and offer these pies as a token of good will. "

Speaking of Pies…

On Providing for the Homeless: living in Chicago for 2.5 years soured my impressions in general towards homelessness. I always was a provider, but one specific incident caused me to never again give money over. However, I loved going out to eat in Chicago, and anytime I encountered an individual in need, I always forked over my leftovers (which were very good, or else I wouldn’t have taken it home with me). My desire to do this stemmed from the fact that my mother rarely give money to those in need, but would gladly make a detour to a fast food chain/grocery store, go in, pick up some food, and run it back to the individuals and give it to them. If they were truly hungry and helpless, they’d accept it with graciousness. If they were not “blessing” that gift, then I felt vindication for not providing to their likely addictions.

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Dec 11, 2009 4:30 PM EST reply actions  

In London,

I would always give food. Now, I give money to shelters and food banks.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

why albert?

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

MO said today he doesn't tell him everything

but he’s sure his agents & Tony does. so you’re right, he does know everything

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I really dig that Peter Noone cover

Thanks for alerting me to its existence, RB.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Dec 11, 2009 4:35 PM EST reply actions  

odd, I mysteriously lost a $20 bill this week

someone has it now, I would think.

Hey Cubs, Franklin for board game, you take care of Milton’s $ needs, we’ll take care of Frankie’s. sound good?

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 11, 2009 4:46 PM EST reply actions  

no thank you

I wouldn’t want Carpenter to hurt his hand while Bradley carries carp’s luggage

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on Dec 11, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

oh you pretty things – Peter Noone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S8PnNfRz9A

If you liked that one^

try this:

Seu Jorge, its got a nice quality to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn-L7FTfGzg

I like his version of Life on Mars, much better though

by jealousblues on Dec 11, 2009 5:26 PM EST reply actions  

Article about offer up on PD

Warning: Joe Strauss wrote it…

link

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Dec 11, 2009 5:31 PM EST reply actions  

Tough decision

I want to know about the offer, but I do not at all want to read something written by Straussie right now…

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 11, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

someone needs to go in and get quotes...

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

he says nothing more than you probably already know

I now have to live with the fact that I will never get the time I spent reading it back.

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on Dec 11, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

moar unicorns.
The Cardinals have tendered a formal offer for free agent left fielder Matt Holliday and hope to receive a response from the player’s agent, Scott Boras, sometime early next week.

Terms of the offer are not known at this time.

General manager John Mozeliak this afternoon confirmed that he made the offer before leaving Major League Baseball’s Winter Meetings in Indianapolis.
Mozeliak insisted that the club did not attach a hard deadline to its offer but believes talks will be ongoing. "I find that deadlines can be counterproductive in talks like these. Our preference is to hear something sooner than later."

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

OK

did you all hear the interview that started this on Bernie’s show today? i forget where i put it up earlier so here it is again

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think that's fair.

I think Goold is at least one that is generally liked. Strauss is just negative so sometimes he’s difficult to read. I can’t speak for everyone but I don’t dislike all reporters.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Dec 12, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Goold = good reporter.

Strauss = snide hyperbole, pouting, and just general Asshattedness.

* is an Asshat

by RiverRat on Dec 12, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

repost

holiday cheer from the Cardinals FO

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 5:42 PM EST reply actions  

you mean Holliday cheer.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Dec 11, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

you're jinxing it, not me.

[is not punny tonight]

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

oops.

I assumed it was a link to a story about the offer. Even so, its the Holliday season. I can’t help it.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Dec 11, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

only after July 24

if it’s still the season, we should all have some pie. with bacon.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

it would be great if we could sign him before Christmas.

Happy Hollidays.

"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR

by IHeartBoog on Dec 11, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

it's already the first night of Hanukkah

get on it.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Bacon...and PIE?!?!?!?!

Together?!?!?!?! THAT’s THE GREATEST THING EVER.

BAKE MOAR NOW

"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."

--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre

by Ted Glover on Dec 11, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

have i died & gone to heaven?

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

needs bacon bits on top

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 12, 2009 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

OH. MY. GAWD.

I’m having some strange feelings about that pie. I may make one and just roll in it.

VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 12, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

haha

why in the world did that happen?

Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")

by STLRegalia on Dec 11, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Mo seems to be wondering the same thing....

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Goold weighs in

Is that Asst. GM @Jabbamondi as an elf? Who dared offer him that hat?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm so ready to make that my xmas time avatar

but the robot would destroy me if i changed it again.

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Per stltoday.com

“A club source said Mozeliak and chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. are prepared to be "creative" in talks for Holliday, possibly by extending a deal to include a series of options or opt-outs. Holliday is seeking no-trade protection as part of any deal.”

Ugh.. If there is an opt-out, just say no thanks and move on.

by outraged on Dec 11, 2009 6:14 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, especially for Boras as an agent

He will just wait until the Yanks or Sox have money.

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 11, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Only bad things happen with early opt-outs

If the guy sucks, you’re stuck with him. If he’s good, he opts out for more money. If the last year or whatever is a player option fine, but don’t make it an 8 year deal with opt out after 3-4. It’s just bad business.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 11, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I think being creative is good

It’s all part of negotiations. The Cards and Holliday might have different interests and it is not a bad thing to talk about all the possible terms that could be adjusted, e.g. money, years, incentives, options, etc… If an opt-out or no-trade clause leads Holliday to compromise on something else, then I think it fits the negotiations process.
Frankly, I have been quite impressed with how Mo and boss have handled it publicly so far. I am just hoping for a good outcome for the Cards (a good outcome could include not overpaying and losing Lego).

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 11, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

opt out for holliday

and not for apu

i agree, dangerous ground that should be avoided

I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going

by sportsman on Dec 11, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not disagreeing with you

Ridiculous one-sided terms are not cool, unless there is a compromise somewhere else.

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 11, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

When has an 8 year deal ever come back to bite a team?

I’m really looking forward to seeing how all these ridiculous NHL contracts play out in the next decade. It’s going to be awesome when they have to blow up the NHL and start over again because of those.

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Dec 11, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really

They’re really more like 8 year deals with the tack on “cap defeater” years.

On top of that, 13.5% of the money (and they’re going to be moving it to 25%) is paid into an escrow fund that would get refunded to the owners should revenues go down significantly.

On top of that, a team can buy a player out for 2/3 of the money remaining on the contract, and by the time that comes around the high frontloaded money has already been paid out so it’d be fairly palatable.

On top of that, NHL players are remarkably more consistent with their play. Stars who lose their athleticism remain good or at least useful just on their ice-vision and skill. The real worry is you find a guy who is crazy injury prone like saaaay Rick DiPietro. But even if they run into another Eric Lindros, it’s still not a franchise crippler. Some teams are going to get burned (Islanders cough cough) but the reduction in cap hit is well worth the risk and there’s a lot of value in having legitimate career franchise players.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 11, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You know way too much

about the NHL salary structure.

The contract I really like from the NHL is the Hossa one where his last 4 years pay him in concession stand vouchers, and warm happy feelings.

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Dec 11, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I like the Hossa deal

Because the Hawks are going to have to dump like half their team given their cap situation going into next year. Only 15 players signed for next year……..and those 15 players put them over the cap. Surely there’s a plan but I don’t get what they’re doing.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Dec 11, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

My buddy spends a lot of time

on Second City Hockey… everyone over there is trying to figure out the same thing. I guess they’re trying their own Albert and the Seven Dwarfs theory… only adjusted for hockey.

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Dec 11, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Was Wells an 8 year contract or 7?

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 12, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

8 year olds, dude.

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Dec 11, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

lol!

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 11, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

If that's what it takes to get Holliday for 3-4 years

I’m down with that. This is our window of opportunity. In 3-4 years, we may have other in house options on offense. We don’t have that now.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Dec 11, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

And potential monetary savings

Agree with azru. Also want to point out that such an opt out option (alliteration with o’s) might lead to a smaller monetary contract now, since Holliday could probably get more later. And, if Holliday does opt out down the road, the Cards might very well have other, less costly options – either in-house or other potential free agents then.

by CRay on Dec 11, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

FYI--when the first letter is a vowel

it is referred to as assonance, not alliteration.

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Dec 11, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

I wasn’t an English major

by CRay on Dec 11, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

My worry though

is that he gets a longer contract with an opt out at 3 years. Say a 7 year contract with a player opt out after 3 seasons. If we’re dealing in opt outs, it should be a mutual one. If he’s great, he can opt out. If he sucks, the team can opt out.

If the opt out doesn’t extend the length of the deal, then I’m all for it for the reasons you stated.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 11, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

i would have no problem with him leaving in 3 or 4 seasons

none whatsoever. and least we forget, they need to be creative in order to pay Albert & keep the team in the hunt to win every year

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Doesn't a mutual opt out kind of defeat the purpose?

If it was mutual, an opt out would never happen. Or am I understanding your point incorrectly.

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 12, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions  

It would be similar to a "mutual option" year

which don’t seem to be in too many contracts anymore, but they were in quite a few back in the 90’s if I remember correctly.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 14, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

part of me says "so what?"

we get him in his best years when he deserves the money,

maybe he opts out and someone else gets a few good years and over pays for the crappy ones ;-)

by jealousblues on Dec 12, 2009 4:50 AM EST up reply actions  

The theme to this off-season...

so far is that bad teams keep doing dumb things. To wit:

  • Astros waste all their nickels ($12 million) on a one-win third baseman and three crappy relievers
  • Brewers spend $40 million on Wolf, Hawkins, and (maybe) Counsell
  • Royals and Nationals go multiple years for ancient catchers (er, “mentors”)
  • D-Backs dump Scherzer for Edwin Jackson
  • Mets haven’t done much, but there’s plenty of time to overpay for Pinata and Marquis
  • Reds are paralyzed thanks to the Scott Rolen acquisition
  • Cheap ass Padres are about to non-tender their best pitcher

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 11, 2009 8:18 PM EST reply actions  

so far, the scott rolen trade remains way up high on my WTF meter.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 11, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

brewers/wolf deal

not that bad. three years is probably too much and it could end up bad.

the big wtf for me is the nats signing pudge and talking about signing a couple veteran starters and the astros still not being able to recognize when it’s time to rebuild.

really, we’re blessed with a pretty solid FO

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Sabean trading a good prospect for ryan garko

and then dumping him. Dayton Moore and Ed Wade fighting hard for the “dumbest GM in baseball” trophy, but the man, the master, Brian Sabean is always one step ahead….

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 13, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

I’m just glad I’m not a fan of any of those teams

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 11, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, if his arm doesn't fall off. But ...

You wonder if Arizona knows something about his health that they’re not saying. That’s the only thing I can think of that might make that move make sense.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 11, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

ah

that’s a good point

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 11, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

No

3Y$15M for Brandon Lyon is much, much worse.

I also think the Pudge deal is worse, because the Nats simply aren’t competing next year, and they have a really good young catcher that needs AB’s. Even worse, they are not looking to deal Adam Dunn.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 11, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

They are convinced they need "veterans"

Can get much more veteran than Pudge :)

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 12, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

how about the other pudge?

#72??? He’s a veteran

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!

by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 12, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

And someone, somewhere

will be convinced that Milton bradley can be rehabilitated, and will trade for him.

And then I will has the sads that he’s not on the Cubbies anymore. :(

"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."

--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre

by Ted Glover on Dec 11, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather see him on a different team than on the Cubs

but I’m definitely glad they signed him instead of Adam Dunn, I think Dunn’s defensive shittiness would be downplayed a bit at wrigley, and he would hit like 60 home runs there

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 11, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

At least there's some...

freakin upside. You gotta take some chances to win a pennant. Jason Kendall and Pedro Feliz aren’t gonna get it done.

I think I read something about this from Bill James – how bad teams choose to fail in the usual, socially-acceptable ways instead of taking a risk that could either succeed or fail spectacularly.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 11, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

like when the pirates got matt morris

i seriously have no idea what that franchise is doing

"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~

by YesWeOquendo on Dec 11, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Brilliant!

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

The Pudge signing by Washington

has to be about ticket sales and Stephen Strasburg. I think they want any extra possible incentive for fans to come to that beautiful stadium and then, if Stephen makes it up next season, he works with an HOF catcher his first year, to help the transition.

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Dec 11, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

depends on how you're meaning "fix".

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Dec 11, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

He can't be much worse

than the 5th starters they rolled out there last year.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Dec 11, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

some commenter on mlbtr says

the offer to holliday was 8/96 per mlbtr

that’s 12 aav. somehow i see that not being even kind of true

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 11, 2009 11:58 PM EST reply actions  

per buster olney*

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 12, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

p-d is saying

that it is not 18 aav. i guess that means it’s less?

and they say that number is significant because that’s what he rejected from the rickies, but i thought he rejected their offer because they wouldn’t include a ntc

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Dec 12, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

That's 12 million a year

I was hearing 6/96, but nobody has a goddamn clue, so hell if I know :).

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 12, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions  

we'll never know unless MO tells us what it was, and he's not going to do that

you can’t believe Boras & you can’t believe the rumors

Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.

by gdm426 on Dec 12, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

...
hopefully, better years from Soriano, Soto, and Lee.

You realize that Lee had a .306/.393/.579 slash line last year? His wOBA was .412 and he was worth 5.3 WAR.

by vivaelpujols on Dec 12, 2009 3:27 AM EST reply actions  

He had a really cold start as well.

by ol Pete on Dec 12, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

+ Injury

My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier

by Taskmaster on Dec 12, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Since no one has said anything that I have seen,

I was wondering about Holliday and an NTC. I figure he’ll get one but I don’t like it. The are very, very few players that deserve them. And when he starts his old man regression we’re stuck with him if he doesn’t want to leave.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 12, 2009 3:52 AM EST reply actions  

depends how long he's here for

if it’s a 6 year deal he’ll likely still be above-average at the end of it and we’ll only be slightly overpay him in the way that, say, Jim Edmonds was getting overpaid in 2007.

RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 13, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

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