Scott Boras's Showtime Rotisserie and Outfielder
by DanUpBaby on Dec 10, 2009 7:36 AM EST
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Boras once again did a bit of lobbying when he met with reporters on Wednesday. He reiterated his stance that the Cardinals are entirely able to sign Holliday and accomplish a new deal with superstar Albert Pujols.
"I always say, these are owners' decisions," he said. "I just say that I think the fans need to know these are choices."
The more I hear about Scott Boras, and more particularly from Scott Boras, the less able I am to conjure, for blogging purposes, plausible reasons that he is a good salesman. I have heard this particular line of reasoning this bluntly one other time, in recent memory: at a state fair exhibition floor, from a second-rate carnival barker selling an as-seen-near-TVs sushi-rolling contraption.
He'd just started his sales-pitch, and our small group, alone, stopped to listen; my girlfriend speaks Japanese and is fond of both Japanese culture and bad infomercials, and the confluence of circumstances seemed too much to resist. But his pitch is not geared for four people who know each other—he's obviously familiar with the complete Ron Popeil oeuvre, and his laugh lines, as he shows off his kitchen gadget, are meant for large studio audiences. He begins, addressing us directly, by assuming that we don't know the difference between sushi and sashimi. The correct pronunciation, whispered into my ear, follows, and given how Boras-ly he responds to this usurpation of his authority I can only imagine that this is how all Scott Boras conversations really start.
Having been told, implicitly, that we know more about his product than he does, he gets outwardly hostile. It is, for a while, as though he is attempting to justify his purchase to us. If there were more people I honestly think he would have told me that I couldn't be cool unless I was rolling my sushi with the push of a button—that supplies were going fast, and I, who could win the admiration of his friends and enemies and the girl on his arm with this simple device, should not, must not miss out. But with just the four of us there he said, his Popeil-voice breaking into a kind of heckler-in-reverse yell, that we looked like we could afford this thing, didn't we?
Presumably he was not aware that he was speaking to two liberal arts majors.
But Scott Boras knows who the Cardinals are, and he knows that the Cardinals understand as much about his product as he does. I'm not sure what saying "you sure look like you can afford him!" to the press does, except earn him a small but devoted following among the comments sections of America's newspapers.
That Matt Holliday will eventually be an "owner's decision" is self-evident. Bill DeWallet (it's a pun) could spend money he does not want to spend on the Cardinals on Matt Holliday; it's within his means. And I could have taken $20 that was, to be honest, earmarked for corn dogs and lemon shake-ups and purchased a simple product that would make the entire sushi process easier.
Having watched some of the better blogs rage against the continued employment of, say, Bill Bavasi for so long, I can only say that I'm glad the Cardinals have had reasonably competent management for the entirety of my blogging tenure. This particular Boras trick seems so transparent and desperate that I can only assume, in the grand tradition of trading with Billy Beane, that he is doing it on purpose, as part of an elaborate series of feints. But at least Mozeliak's unlikely to fall for the initial pump-fake.
#
The Rule 5 draft is this morning, but I'm not sure what that means for the Cardinals; one of the various hard-throwing relief question marks is an option, one that makes it very hard for me not to think about Anthony Reyes, but the Cardinals have the other two usual Rule 5 suspects—toolsy middle infield project and backup catcher—occupied.
I love looking at the Rule 5 draft after the fact, and I hope the Cardinals make a move, if for no other reason than to give us something to talk about in February, but except in Brian Barton/Chris Shelton cases I can't think of any other yearly baseball tradition that more stubbornly resists pre-gaming.
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who's number one?
my first time
anyway, yes, barber boras seems a littlle unhappy with the private approaches taken by managements across the board. don’t know every horse in his stable, but is there any chatter re any boras client? seems like he really needs a splash with matty or the wheels come off a bit for the whole stable.
my fan support for holliday ends at 5/90 as an abs max. in the end (jan or maybe february) he ends up close to that. well after we are out of it.
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Boras' pitch
This is a timely main post from my perspective since I’ve been wondering about the tactic(s) that Boras is employing. As Danup intimated with the feints mention- it nearly impossible to know what is going on re: negotiations behind the scenes, and what Boras/Mo are saying in front of cameras may be, somehow, in reaction/play-off of what is said in the smoky backroom.
But, I;ve been struck with by thing that has so far been consistent. So far, Boras, and I suppose every other agent, has played his typical card of citing unverifiably nameless and quantifiable “interest” in (insert free agent’s name here- Holliday in this case). Like most other I’d-tell-ya-but-I’d-have-to-kill-ya/take-my-word-for-it based sales pitches, there really isn’t anything to doubt or believe. The only time he mentions a team in connection to Holliday, and has done so several times already, it has been the Cards.
The other mention of other teams who “have interest” in Holliday are the super-vague reports of BoSox/Mets/whatever that bubble to the surface originating from god knows where.
I’m wondering if Boras is trying to stoke flames amongst the Cards fanbase to put pressure on the franchise to sign Holliday? I wonder if the market, which most assume to be relatively large, is actually not large at all?
Either way, and perhaps there is more to Mo’s words than meets the eye, I’m am so far really happy with how he’s handling this. “Yes, we’re interested. No, there is no deadline. Yes, we have other options. Yes, we’ll be patient for now. No, we won’t be strung along all winter.” Those words are a summary of my understanding of what Mo has said to the media.
I don’t think the Cards NEED Holliday. I think Mo has made the same conclusion and is taking that approach.
what mo and others need
is an accurate picture of the economy 6 six years out
i don;t think boraa sis the guy to ask
why wasn’t bernancke at these meetings!!
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
My problem with Boras
I have no issues, for the most part, with how Boras handles his negotiations. He advocates zealously for his client, which is what he is supposed to do. His duty is to his client alone. Not to baseball, not to the fans, not to owners, not to WWL. Puffing is completely allowed in negotiations although some would say that he has pushed the envelope to being close to misrepresentation.
My main issue is that he sometimes is not being the best advocate for his client because he has some clients with potentially the same suitors. To me he prioritizes his clients to the detriment to some of his clients. This violates his duty to his client whether the client is a big, medium, or small fish. Also, it seems to me that he does not obey his clients. Sure the agent controls the means of negotiations, but the client decides the offer. Every offer needs to be forwarded. I think examples of these cases are ARod and Kenny Rogers.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
I know this is ten hours after the fact,
but your post sounds like it could have come out of a PR text book.
(Law school student stuck in finals hell)
He hit it good. He hit it good.
Yes, PR and ADR
and all that good stuff. I think all that stuff does make sense, though. If the client is paying the bill, then why shouldn’t the client get his money’s worth?
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
I'll take the other side of the assessment of any agent's duties
While the idea that Boras is responsible to his client alone and not to other things you mention is completely defensible, I don’t think it’s true.
I look at this from a semi-Rousseau/Social contract point of view. Agents don’t operate in a vacuum. Many people may not like this, but agents are factors within the MLB “society.” For agents, specifically Boras in this case (and I have no earthly idea what his actual views on this are), to think/say/act that MLB and fans be damned, I’m looking to get my client his, and hence me mine, is profoundly short-sighted and just and profoundly stupid, imo.
Assuming for a minute that that is Boras’ take on things (which it may not be), then he, and perhaps others, ARE a problem. Any large organization, MLB and individual franchises would be included in this category, almost unavoidably takes on an aire of politics, from time-to-time, if not all the time. Whether or not Boras is, point of fact, a “problem” almost doesn’t matter. The fact that there is a very real perception that he is a problem is what matters, in the end.
In the end, Boras relies on baseball, MLB, and ultimately- the fans, for his livelihood. He doesn’t see that, or sees it and acts otherwise… well, that’s the sort of mindset that ultimately caused the early 90’s strike, and one could easily argue, the most recent financial crisis.
My two cents.
by Scarecrow7775 on Dec 11, 2009 3:19 AM EST up reply actions
Social contract is definitely an interesting idea
Legitimacy based on the general interest (general will) is definitely an interesting model but is not the dominant model currently. Maybe it should. I think there are many problems with the current model of agency. Just consider real estate. For the life of me I don’t understand why dual agency or commission based compensation is so readily accepted. /end tangent. I was just talking about the legal obligations that Boras has towards his clients. Does he have a moral and ethical obligation to the fans and the game that gave him his career? Does his way of negotiation hurt the game in the long run? I think you definitely raise really interesting issues. But I think owners have much of the blame. They are the ones who tolerate the behavior of agents, and they fall for the agents’ tricks.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
I think you pretty well hit it on the head here.
I think Mr. Boras has not had the market that he wanted for his client, yet. I think, much like Jocketty, Boras’ old tricks are not as effective in the current baseball environment where draft picks are valued higher than they were when he was negotiating the market for, say A-Rod the first time. You are starting to see more ownership groups that are unwilling to be manipulated into bidding against themselves the way the Rangers were in that instance. In addition, the Yankees have set the market for dollar figures on premium free agents so high, that most markets choose not to pay in both those dollar figures and their 1st round draft choice.
I’m not convinced yet that Mr. Boras has adapted to how to handle these premium free agents when the Yankees don’t choose to get involved. I don’t think any reasonable fan thinks the Cardinals are best served by putting 40%-50% of their payroll into two players. However, Boras knows that it is necessary to have othere suitors involved before he tries to bring in the Yankees or Red Sox. Otherwise, he won’t be able to maximize the contract value. So, his current method is to drag along the process long enough that the Yankees finally bring their dollars to the table. However, the Yankees are currently filling out their OF without him, so I’m not convinced they are looking for him.
I don’t really see Matt Holliday as a comparable player to Alex Rodriguez or Albert Pujols, so to pay him as such would be allowing desparation to rule the team’s financial decisions. That kind of desparation is what has caused the market value for players to skyrocket in the last few years. I’m hoping the Cardinals maintain their current discipline.
Also, he is detrimental to his own clients
Yankees would like to resign Damon but by doing that will put them out of the Holliday race. Hurting Boras negotiating skills.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
players choose him
though i have no idea why (no, really)
certainly if i was not a front line player, i would stay away so i could be someone’s primary responsibility (eh, rick-dick?)
the metrics argument i think is a valid one, andi just wonder if 5 years from now boras will still be a ’superagent"
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
This just in
The Red Sox are intested in every free agent and trade candidate in the entire market.
Update: Fulfilling ESPN and MLB’s long sought after dreams: The Red Sox and Yankees are in negotiations to buy every other major league team. The Red Sox would become the National League and the Yankees the American League. It has also been announced that should the deals be struck, that interleague would be expanded to 162 games and that the farm systems of the two clubs would play each other in the first two rounds of the playoffs before the World Series. Bud Selig announced that the creation of the super 2 league is exactly what baseball needs and that fans are going to love it.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
by Elvis on Dec 10, 2009 8:45 AM EST reply actions 11 recs
ESPN carries 161 of the 162
Sportscenter becomes 6 hours long to allow a 5-hour replay slot.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 10, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
But then, of course
you have to subscribe to ESPN for only $129.99 a month.
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 10, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
if Albertofstan has an enemy
that would be it
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
What about YES Network???
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
They may as well re-name ESPN the RSYN
Red Sox Yankees Network
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Well, it already stands for...
Epstein Steinbrenner Promotional Network
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Dec 10, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well said
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 10, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Eastern Seaboard Propaganda Network
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher, 2010 watch it go to fire!
by First mammal to wear pants on Dec 11, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
I like this one better.
Simply for the use of seaboard.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
i'm scarred of water, so i like bobo's better
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
How about Drew Locke in the Rule V?
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/Andy-Locke.shtml
Also, completely OT, did you know that every baseball player in history has been born in the U.S. or a foreign country/territory EXCEPT FOR ONE!
MB for LF in 2010!
I live near Corpus Christi and watched Locke a few times this past summer
and I was not all that impressed. The guy does have a solid bat for AA, but I just don’t think it translates to the bigs, atleast not yet. Also, I think his ticket to the majors will be 1B and 1B only. Although, I don’t know…. guess if Craig can play left then Locke probably could. To me, his bat may be comparable to Craig’s, so I don’t think you draft him when you’ve already got that player (Craig). If he was a lefty bat, then I would be willing to take a chance and try him out as a bat for the bench, but as a righty, we’ve already got Craig so we don’t need another on the 25 man roster.
true...
and he’s kind of old for the Texas League… How about John Shelby?
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/S/John-Shelby-1.shtml
He seems like a DJ-type. Very small and fast, but another righty. Plays all three OF spots plus second, and, reportedly, a little shortstop. Only 23 and has held his own at every level.
MB for LF in 2010!
His ability to play MI is intriguing...
I don’t know how well he can field 2B or SS though. I’d be more likely to go after locke than this guy. I really don’t see him putting up better numbers than T. Greene, so I say no. The Cube had his power ranked at 82, but his slg% was only .402, plus his contact and patience was ranked pretty low… his bat isn’t near ready yet for the 25 man roster.
yeah
but that’s still a lot of whiffing. his speed and power is interesting, but his lack of contact and low average show me he’s not ready. If we were to pick him up in a trade, I’d be happy to have him in our minor league system, but not on the 25 man roster.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Matt-Mcbride.shtml
This guy is intriguing, but again, I don’t think I’d take the chance putting him on the 25 man roster. Another case of I wish he were a LH hitter
That is
if we had not signed LaRue, it may have been a decent pick-up, but his defense is probably the problem
Yohan Pino
so far, would be my only interest in the rule 5
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/Yohan-Pino.shtml
hmm intriguing
like his perpipherals for a bullpen role…anyone know what he throws?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
Holiday
I knew it would be a struggle to not end up hating this guy during this offseason, and it is as bad as expected. Scott Boras’ methods have become so transparent that they are just annoying.
Compare his player favorably to someone making a shitload of money. (whether there is much real correlation or not.)
Plant rumors in the major markets leaking stories of someone “close to the situation” who says that the player wants to play in New York, Boston, LA, Chicago…etc. This gets the local media and talk shows buzzing and creating pressure for the big market GM to be a bidder.
Make statements in the media in cities that are interested in his clients that accuse the ownership of being cheap.
Always state that there are a few “mystery teams” involved who are ready to spend big for his clients. (hard to outbid these mystery teams.)
Draw out the negotiations until teams get a little more desperate.
Sign with the highest bidder!
Boras is what he is, but Holiday chose him to be his agent, so he did so with the idea of the fattest paycheck in mind.
The way this has been playing out so far, it seems like Holiday wants to play for the Cardinals, but Boras is trying his best to squeeze every penny out of the Cards by trying to get some big market bids.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
Boras is right though.
The Cardinals need Holliday. We don’t have the chips to acquire another player with his offensive profile and we don’t have anyone in the minors that looks like a real offensive threat*. They need his bat to score runs.
*I still have faith that Colby is going to take a significant uptick though.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Boras is right that the Cardinals DO have the money to sign him
I think that is the meaning behind his bullshit. If the Cardinals do not sign Holliday, it is not because they could not afford to, they just didnt want to. Big Difference. We discussed numbers and how far everyone is willing to go. Im not sure how high I would go but Im certain the Cards can go high, still sign the King, and field a very competitive team around them.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
With that being said
I appreciate that Mo is not bidding against himself.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
Without an increase in payroll,
I believe it depends on how much Holliday will accept. We got rid of so many cheap, cost-controlled young players for both Holliday and DeRosa, that we need Allen Craig to be the new Speez, Rasmus to be the new Edmonds, Ludwick to be the old Ludwick, Motte to greatly improve, Garcia and Lynn to slot in the middle of the rotation, and David Freese to be good in order to afford Holliday and Pujols and still be competitive. If we raise payroll by $20MM, we’re fine. But with eight figures going to paying off the stadium every year, I don’t like the odds of that.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I for one (with nothing to back this up, because they just don't seem to want us to know such things)
believe that the Cards could afford a 20M bump in payroll. I really believe that this team makes way more of a profit than 20M. I do think it is worth it RIGHT NOW to sign both Holliday and Pujols , and do that salary bump. Something just tells me if Pujols ever is allowed to leave, this team will take a hit in revenue close to that 20M.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Dec 10, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
But the issue is market value
IMHO. What is the market for Matt Holliday? Not the revenues the Cards are allegedly pulling in or the extension for Pujols. Tony Soprano tells a shop owner he has to “be smart” or else he’s going to make your life miserable. A business seller tells prospective buyers how great his product is and either you pay me or I’ll get my money elsewhere.
Boras’ comments are in actuality directed to the Cardinal fans and designed to stir a revolt among the redbird faithful against Cardinal ownership. These aren’t standard negotiation tactics known in the business world. Boras is freaking and gone rogue.
the redbird faithful managed sarcastic applause the other month
I don’t think they’re terribly roused. they can always eat the extra pies.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Not sure
Baseball is not a normal business context. Actually I do see an analogy to appealing to the shareholders and trying to pressure the board and officers. IMHO, Boras is not acting any differently. DeWitt said that attendance is a significant component of revenue. Boras tries to appeal to the attendees.
I don’t hate Boras because of his tactics. I hate him because his tactics are so darn effective. I have a feeling (at least I am hoping) that the current market demand is working to his client’s disadvantage.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
analogy to business
>>appealing to the shareholders and trying to pressure the board and officers<<
When you are trying to purchase the entire business and the shareholders are the true party in interest but management is standing in the doorway, yes that happens. But when you are the seller (as Boras is trying to sell Holliday), I’ve never heard of this occurring. Hey shareholders, you’re management is stupid and trying to lowball us, they need to buck up more dollars and pay the exorbitant price we seek.
I think it happens in business all the time
power play amongst the three entities: the board, officers, and shareholders. All sides tries to drum up support before a regular or a special election on deciding a purchase or a sell. I am not sure why there is a difference between the two?
I do agree that the tactic could very much backfire and turn some buyers off, cf. the Angels. But I think most buyers would just see it for what it is. A negotiation ploy and tactic.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
Effective tactics?
Not so sure anymore… Were they that effective when A-Rod signed w the Yanks…?
A robot with hope?
You better come down to Minitrue to have your programming checked.
by arch support on Dec 10, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
I still contend that Holliday's defense. . .
will take back some of the runs that he gives back with his bat. . .
and that we would be overpaying based on seeing perhaps the best two months of his career.
There’s a reason that Boras appears to be scrambling a bit to drum up interest and dollars for Holliday. He ain’t Al Pujols. He’s not even Mark Texeira. The AL saw how disappointing Holliday’s bat was with the A’s, and, small sample size or not, everyone watched him take some really bad ABs with the Birds in the playoffs.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 10, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
and furthermore. . .
when Holliday was the hottest with the Cards, the Cards were facing some really bad teams.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 10, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
He's better than Teixeira.
Sorry, but he just is.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
ahhh but if you listen to the NY media
Teixeira is the greatest defensive first baseman ever to play the game and second only to the great Jeter as the most valuable in all of sports….
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this is why we don't listen to the audio tabloids.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 10, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
not just Tabloids
I don’t think most people realize that Holliday has better offensive stats than Tex outside of a few home runs
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Isn't it better for us if they don't know?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 10, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
*slightly* better, IMO
but at the very least he’s comparable. In no world is Mark teixera a long way better than Holliday; Holliday bests him as a hitter (career) and by WAR the last 4 years. They’re projected next year to be basically equal value as far as I can see.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
But,
he’s also a year older than Teixiera was at this time last year, when Teixeira was seeking out his monster FA contract.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He was also a FA when the Yankees had a hole at 1b
And a TON of money to pay people with.
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
On what basis?
Y’know, I was going to prepare a long-winded laborious argument, but then I found this on fangraphs:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira
/lazy
In addition to what Dave Cameron writes in that article, I would also say that Holliday’s numbers appear to be declining, both offensively and defensively, and defense has been a consistently significant part of his value, where it hasn’t for Teixiera. And I think his defense is about to fall off a cliff.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 10, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
basically
on the basis (lazily) that Holliday has been considerably more valuable than Tex over the last four years (during which both have been largely healthy).
It’s also intriguing Cameron wrote that post after Tex put up a second consecutive strong year – I’d give him more credence if he had the same opinion (and it IS just an opinion, i.e. “I prefer Tex because I think he’s better”) one year previously. I’m beginning to believe Cameron is becoming a bit of a lazy blowhard who isn’t prepared to address any of the inconsistencies in his articles (although there seems to be a bit of a regretful “Cameron baiting” culture going on at FG the last few months, which kinda sucks).
Holliday’s put up 4 years of about a .400 wOBA, with nothing lower than .390 and nothing higher than .428. Teixeira’s put up 4 years of about a .400 wOBA (actually, his average is slightly less than Holliday’s but let’s not split hairs), nothing lower than .374, nothing higher than .410. They’re pretty similar hitters.
Holliday plays LF, which is a tougher position than 1B, apparently (I’m not so sure, personally, as I think a 1B does a lot more that is difficult to quantify than a LF, but w/e). You might think, based on seeing him play 20-odd games for the Cards (where I admit his defence didn’t look great) that he’s about to fall off a cliff, but last year his D was (acc. to UZR) right slap-bang in the middle of his career numbers (career +6.7, 2009 +6), Tex is basically an average first baseman. He also had a below-average year, according to UZR, with the glove in 09 but is not apparently about to “fall off a cliff” (although I appreciate there are similarities in their build and age, and Holliday plays the more demanding position in terms of athleticism).
I can maybe believe that, going forward, Holliday’s size will mean he will “fall off” as a LF faster than Tex falls off as a 1B, but it’s pretty hard to argue that Tex is the more valuable defensive player now. At BEST, it’s a wash.
And, frankly, at best, right now it’s a wash on the hitting side too. I find it hard to believe that one year of a superior wOBA for Tex when he’s hitting in Yankee matchbox (vs Holliday in Busch/Colisseum) is any more conclusive than the previous 3 years when Holliday was hitting in the better hitters’ park and he beat Tex’s wOBA.
Any case, I think I was being a bit facetious when I said Holliday was definitely better. He’s certainly more valuable to the Cards, as we already have a 1B. I think the evidence points to the fact that he’s slightly better with the bat and in the field, right now (possibly not going forward – I actually think he’ll age worse than Tex will, for various reasons), but it’s probably not a huge difference anyway. Still, to say he’s “not even Tex” is probably unfair – he’s probably, if anything, a shade better right now.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
and for a couple of those years when Holliday was in Coors
Tex wasn’t exactly playing in a ballpark that depresses one’s offense.
Great comment there Monky, I actually read the whole thing.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
there's no way i'm reading all of that
because he thinks a cricket catch is better than Mays
Monk has officially jumped the shark
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
by gdm426 on Dec 10, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
homer works too
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
You need a sig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVIdy9_wqQw
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
that is awesome
shit needs more green.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 6:07 AM EST up reply actions
Monk has officially jumped the shark
rec’d for truth.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 6:07 AM EST up reply actions
Holliday
for the next four years or so would be interesting, but the more I see the numbers, the more I’d like to see Allen Craig given a shot.
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 10, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
i would not mind a Craig plus a lefty bat for LF
Spend the extra on high risk/reward starting pitching aka Bedard or Sheets
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
i think when harden went
for the same f’ing price as Penny (sniff), my appetite for the risk/reward guys has kinda waned. I suppose if Bedard would sign for $5m or less it’s maybe worth a gamble. $12m seems to be a bit risky on Sheets, when we have a pretty ugly offense.
I dunno what I’d do if we can’t get Holliday. I’d almost consider trying to hold $10m back until 2010 and seeing if we can get better value for it then, spend the other $10m on something like the DeJesus trade plus a relief arm and a lefty bench bat.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
sbn broken?
can anyone else reply or is just me getting annoyed?
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
I think we are all gettin' SBN'd
preview button does not work, and the post button is being ridiculous, and not in the good way
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
yes SBN is doing it's weekly f up
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
most
players sign with the idea of fat paychecks.
it’s also a rare case an agent isn’t trying to squeeze pennies out of teams. in fact, that would be negligent if they weren’t. boras just tries to buck the rules of the free agent system, and that pisses people off. he has a point too. why should his younger clients get locked into league min when they could sign a major league contract, for example?
If Holliday can make a lot more money elsewhere
then I don’t blame him. If I were making in the 100+ million range, I’d gladly take a drastic pay cut to play somewhere I’m happy, but I wouldn’t impose an expectation on him to do the same. I’ll only be pissed if he signs somewhere else for something like 5-8 million more over a 5 or 6 period. If that happens, he will get pies from me…poisoned pies. Try me, Matt. I’ve got the time, all I need is the poison!
which assumes he wouldnt be happy AND make more money
its clear that holliday doesnt care where he plays. so more power to him if he can get more cash from someone else….
Negotiating 101
Remember those annoying airline magazine ads depicting a pompous “Negotiating Expert” saying, “You don’t get what you deserve – you get what you negotiate”?
His theme, like Boras’s theme, is that talking a good game is more important than delivering the best product. Well, duh – fast talkers think that way.
Actually, in a multi-purchaser bid situation, you only need to pay $1 more than the second highest bid. Boras simply won’t tell the truth about the highest current bid, and wants to create uncertainty so we bid against ourselves. Mo seems to understand that, and displays proper patience.
Holliday is valuable, maybe more valuable to the Cards than to most teams, and we may end up the highest bidder for him. If so, great; if we are outbid relative to his value to the Cards, then move on to the next best use for that money.
if he was 12
and doing this at home
he’d be in for a long time out!
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Damon as an Alternative
The Granderson deal seemly shakes Matt Damon free from the Yankees. Johnny Damon is not Matt Holliday, he’s a lot older for one. But if we can’t afford Holliday, maybe Damon a good substitute if we can sign him to a shorter contract for less money. And he could grow his hair out again.
2009
AVG OBP SLG OPS OPS+ HR
Holliday .313 .394 .515 .909 139 24
Damon .282 .365 .489 .854 126 24
Career
Halliday .318 .387 .545 .933 133
Damon .288 .355 .439 .794 105
So says, Titus Pullo (formerly The Dude)
I assume you're talking about his home/road splits this year?
Those aren’t meaningful by themselves. Every player hit’s better at home than on the road, and his numbers were just as good last year when Yankee’s stadium was a pretty nuetral park.
That being said, you should still always park adjust his numbers, but that would most likely be offset by moving to the NL and out of the AL East.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 10, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
remember
Matt Damon would probably be forced to play with his shirt ON for the Cardinals.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I don't know about that.
He’s Matt Damon. I think he pretty much does whatever he wants.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
obligatory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLG3S5WzHig
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
Sarah Silverman
Extremely funny and so, so hot. Her smile is amazing.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
yeah i kinda agree...
she did a highly-aniticipated standup gig here in london which was panned, mind you. Apparently only had about 40 mins of material for a very expensive show.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 7:30 AM EST up reply actions
i guess i the only guy who hates her with a burning passion as hot as a 1000 suns
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I've always gotten a few snickers out of her material
but nothing that’s as funny as everyone else seems to say it should be.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
here's a contract clause to consider:
give damon (or whomever) an incentive clause stating that if however many dollars are contributed to a designated website (say, $500,000 to the johnnydamonfanclub.com) he has to wear football pants on the field but he gets to collect whatever moneys are donated – the $500,000+. Let the damon-fanciers of STL have their say.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
That's a fun idea,
but I was talking about Matt Damon. Johnny Damon is rather meh.
Now with extra feisty!
unless he comes with a motorcycle.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I only want to see Matt Damon play sports
If he also adopts a hilarious South African accent at the same time!
upon adding Invictus to my Netflix queue today
it suggested that I might also like Run Fat Boy Run. This does not make me want to see either movie.
by brackenthebox on Dec 10, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Too bad all he ever says is
“Maaatt Daaaamooonnnn”
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I like Matt Damon
He does a lot of audio books for Howard Zinn
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see how this frees up Damon
Granderson is primarily a CF, and the Yankees are seemingly in negotiations with Damon to bring him back. And Damon’s splits don’t exactly show that he is going to provide the type of offense we need out of our LF. Hell, his home splits are exaggerated by the joke that is RF for lefties in those last two ballparks.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I for one would like to take a flier on Brian Giles
I think all it would take is a minor league contract or so. Edmonds had a better year before being forced out of baseball than Giles did.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Hasn't he said
It’s whale’s vagina or bust for him?
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
I have not read that
I am pretty sure he is open to anything
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
I remember hearing that
floating around the ether of the baseball TV world somewhere. I have nothing to back up this claim.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Boras used to Capt. Quint in Jaws
All he had to do was chum the waters with planted quotes in newspapers and the GMs would come sniffing. Then, with patience, one GM would bite and a feeding frenzy would ensue. Sorry Scott but as dumb as the majority of GMs are they appear to have wizened up (or the economy has forced them to).
Poor Capt. Quint is befuddled why the sharks aren’t biting. He chummed the water and waited. Unfortunately for him, only one timid shark is circling his boat—it’s red and its home waters are the midwest along the Mississippi river. This shark usually gobbles up the scraps left over after the big boys have devoured the main course. The big boys stayed home. Boras frantically plants stories that Boston and the NYY have picked up the Hollliday scent and are charging hard. But nobody seems to be buying it this time.
Scott Boras is freaking out. He doesn’t even have two parties to play off against each other. Instead, he’s gone Fox News on the Cardinals—try and scare the crap out of its fans and thus bring about the desired irrational action. Boris Propaganda Angle 1: the Cardinals really are a big market team. They draw 3 mill+ fans. DeWitt’s purchase price for the Cards was paid for by selling off garages and other assets he got as part of the deal so he’s currently playing with house money. Thus, DeWitt’s cry of poor is a sham and he’s really cheating the fans so he can line his own pockets. That didn’t get the Cardinals to move so Boras is on to Propaganda Angle #2: Albert Pujols wants to play for a winner, a team that competes for a world series title regularly. The Cardinals can only reach that level with Matt Holliday. Ergo, the only way the Cardinals can resign Pujols is to first sign Holldiay. It’s a two for one deal. Loose Holliday and you loose Pujols.
I’m worried about Scott Boras. I think he has become completely unhinged.
This one has gotten on me since forever, and it seems everyone everywhere does it
but its LOSE not loose. There, now I feel better.
Yep, every Hall of Famer did something unique. Mike Schmidt played with his hat sideways. Roberto Clemente chewed other people's fingernails. Tris Speaker was Japanese. Lou Boudreau rode a dolphin into the batter's box. Nap Lajoie would only use John Wilkes Booth's dismembered leg as a bat. And he corked it. Johnny Mize was from the future. - FJM
dumb as the majority of GMs are they appear to have wizened up
This was unintentionally funny, as well. I imagined Ed Wade spontaneously morphing into Gollum. In fact, he’s probably closer than most, aesthetically:
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Gollum Twin
He’s a smart and great dude, but the twin of Gollum is Tony Dungy. And, he has his “My Precious” the Super Bowl Ring.
SD
His "Precious"
is apparently Brandon Lyon, who he just paid $12M to much to acquire.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I was waiting for a lame "precious" joke
ding ding, you won the sub-thread ;-)
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Great pic
He looks like a cannibal
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 10, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
no, no, no, you missed it...
He wanted to loose the dogs of war, messrs. Holliday and Pujols.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 10, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree
I think the Cards are playing this right. So far there is no market for Holiday and Boras is trying to create one. I don’t really fault Boras here, but I think he sees that the Cards are the best bet for a decent Holiday pay day. But no one is biting at Texeira money for Holiday thus far.
worry
everyone knows the cards will not go overboard and are waiting for them to set the market low so they can outbid. at least, that’s what i would do if in their (yanks, soz, angels) shoes
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
probably because no one listens or watches them either
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
"Here's Lies the Body of Mary Lee...
..Died at the age of 103
For fifteen years she kept her virginity;
Not a bad record for this vicinity"….
Sorry, but that is a classic Quint set of lines…
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
Rule 5 Draft
Cubs take Mike Parisi
Cards take Ben Jukich from the Reds
Not surprised someone took Parisi
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Jukich
Lefty who had a 4.22 FIP in 123 IP in 29 games 17 starts in AAA last season. 7.76K/9. Probably bullpen filler behind Miller and Reyes.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
reads like more of a long man to me. not a huge platoon split - fip of 4.52 v. lhb, 4.19 v. rhb.
tra of 3.84 in aaa in 2009.
ah! how predictable, gb rates :
2009 – 50.2%
2008 – 50.0%/52.9% (AAA/AA)
2007 – 61.1%/45.5% (saratoga/stockton)
think a better brad thompson from the left side.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I didn't dig into splits
just grabbed the basic stats first, but yeah further review shows him as just general bullpen filler
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Cards Select Matt Meyer from Cle
another lefty reliever
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Looks like this was in the AAA Phase
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
what are the rules for the minor league phases?
do those players have to stay at that level or above all year or does it matter?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
Actually, it may not
According to Brian Walton at stlcardinals.scout.com, “The Cardinals lost no players in the Minor League phases of this year’s Rule 5 Draft. Including Meyer, 25 players changed organizations in that part of the proceedings. Those players are not required to be returned no matter what level they are assigned in their new systems in 2010.”
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 10, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
these are really uninspired selections IMO
might as well take a flier on someone who might, just might catch lightning in a bottle somewhere, than an organisational filler LOOGY with a 1:1 (yes, 1:1!) K/BB ratio in the high minors. Might as well just not bother.
Parisi was throwing harder than he previously has, I believe, when he came back last year, but it’s kinda hard to see him being more than 4th or 5th in line for a MLB start for us. I think it’s a loss I can’t really bring myself to care about.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
well, he's not a 4 k/9, 4 bb/9 type.
he’s consistently struck out 9 or 10 guys per nine. he had a bad year for control in 2009. this isn’t nearly as dire. if we threw all the relievers who had a million mph fastball and needed to work on their control out of our minor leagues, we’d have no more relievers at all. as the second loogy at memphis, he’s a good pick up.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
not sure - mil fa?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
i know what the 'M-I-L-F' stand for
but what is that ‘A’ on the end…or do i want to know?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
what i assumed
was that the Brewers would sign him
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously
MILFS come in Class A and Class B. It’s a pretty complicated formula though, and nobody really knows how to derive it. But, if you sign a Class A MILF, be prepared to pay through the nose.
by siddfynch on Dec 10, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I go by breast size when ranking MILFS.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Dec 11, 2009 6:02 AM EST up reply actions
this thread has taken a distinct turn for the worse....
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 6:10 AM EST up reply actions
Be Careful!
You definitely want some other variables in that equation…
i'm sure fitness & toneness are big on his list
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
We had to draft this guy for batting practice
He is a soft tossing lefty
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Agree 100%
I have been advocating that the number 1 need for the Cardinals this offseason is not Matt Holiday, but a lefty to pitch batting practice, since their team always looks like they have never seen one before when they face one.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
Might as well sign all the soft-tossing lefties just so we don't have to face them
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Quite the unflattering picture if you ask me...
He kinda looks like Mulder, don’t you think?
I want the Walrus back...
Nope, this guy still has a left arm
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I see an elbow
but usually there’s something else attached to that. He’s got part of an arm though.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I am pretty sure that is still more than what Mulder has
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
I bet Mulder's had an arm transplant by now.
Worked for Joe Swanson (leg transplant).
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Are you saying we have to shoot this new guy
or Mulder? I am so confused.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i thought he fell off the roof fighting the grinch?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
Yes.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Dec 10, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
by his expression he is either throwing a
literal toss or his face is so rock-solid with absolutely no facial expression that he is even tougher than Carp? If the latter…awesome..if former eh.
I was going to say
Mulder/Ludwick love child
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
+1
That’s who I thought it was
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
My first reaction was
OMG Where is his arm? And I actually thought for a second he had no arm. It took me awhile to figure it out.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Blonde I assume?
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Dec 10, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No
I think that Jukich is a brunette. Why do you ask?
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Dec 10, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
at least
his drapes appear to be…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
Yes.
I have a few of those moments everyday. It’s the price we pay.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
he's from Minnesota
land of Joe Mauers. college in South Dakota and Nebraska.
I don’t think he’s lived in a town with over 700,000 population since three games in Vancouver.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Ren and Stumpy!!!
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
You EEE-DIOT!
Why, Ren, you haven’t washed in weeks! [foghorn]
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
Cubs take Mike Parisi in Rule 5 Draft...
According to Goold’s twitter account.
Good.
I simply do not see Parisi as a viable major leaguer. A Cubs roster with him on it is weaker than one without him, and this eliminates the chance that TLR and Dunc will do something stupid based on the fact that he has “major-league experience.”
by StanTheManFan on Dec 10, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
I wasn't a big Parisi fan either
in the short time that he was a Cardinal. He just didn’t do much for me.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
no more confusion with Parise, at least.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Salary Matrix
We should get the salary matrix put up for this upcoming season.
we?
do you have a rat in your pocket?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
Monkey pack him rizla pon the sweet dep line
or something like that
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 10, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Soooo Taguchi down the left field line
I know that’s not UB40, but whatevs.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
dude, I've heard that before
I can’t place it.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Pass the Dutchie, by Musical Youth?
That’s what I was going for anyway
YouTube
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Nice,
I haven’t thought about that song in forever.
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 10, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
no, no, the So Taguchi phrase
I’ve heard it before, just like that.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
In a song?
I guess it’s possible I came up with it independently from someone else. Of course, there’s also a good chance I or somebody else already said that on VEB.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
IT EXISTS.
I heard it on The Arch back in 06. Documented by Robb in our very blog.
http://mobile.vivaelbirdos.com/2006/10/13/23137/588#1285747
It was late in Flushing LCS Game 2
(How does it feel when you’re about to lose ?)
You could feel it ‘cause Wagner was ready to come through
(How does it feel when you’re about to lose ?)
So came up, he’s an automatic out
(How does it feel when you’re about to lose ?)
I about passed out as I heard Joe Buck cry out
(How does it feel when you’re about to lose ?)
“So Taguchi down the left field line”
“So Taguchi down the left field line”
It a gonna burn, give me music make me jump and prance
It a go done, give me the music make me rock in the dance
(See, documentation of trivia is vital.)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Awesome!
I am so glad somebody made that song. Now if only we could find the audio…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
maybe the radio station still has it
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I just asked them on their facebook wall.
Waiting for a reply….
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
You sure it's not Musial Youth?
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 10, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
huh
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Cheerio, baby.
(Yes, I know it’s Cherry Oh Baby).
There was Gibson in the Reds' dugout, visibly manhandling about three Reds and tossing them bodily out of the dugout and onto the field...He was the toughest athlete mentally I ever saw, and the greatest competitor. JACK BUCK
by ISawGodInGibby'sRightArm on Dec 10, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
Here is my table
…from my own blog.
It’s not a matrix, however, you can see the current payroll situation. Hope it helps.
Cardinals fan from Korea
by FreeRedbird on Dec 10, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
wow, I thought we'd spent a bit less than that.
Penny can make another $1.5m I believe, and likely will if he’s healthy (I’d probably go with the “worst case scenario” on incentives).
I assumed we had at least another $20m to spend, perhaps a touch more, but it looks like that’s about the absolute max, unless payroll gets and unexpected bump.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
also, we're paying Lugo the league minimum, not zero.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
According to Cot's Baseball Contracts,
“acquired by St. Louis in trade from Boston 7/22/09 after being DFA 7/17/09 (Red Sox to pay all of approximately $13.5M still due Lugo in 2009 and 2010)”
Doesn’t it mean we pay him nothing? I’m confused.
Cardinals fan from Korea
it's all about workman's comp
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
workers comp
my wife, the workers comp manager, would be disappointed if i didnt point that out…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
I like your table format
And the fact you included option info and such. Thnx.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
I thought Manny
was Boras’ body guard
Blaine Matthew Burns: Albert Pujols' biggest fan (his first words will for sure be "Albert Pujols is RIDICULOUS")
nice analogy, Dan
and I kind of agree up to a point. Also, I kind of feel that sushi making (alongside bread making) is really something that should be done, by hand, by the experts, and that there should remain some MYSTERY about the whole process, goddammit, that we mere mortals should not be party to.
Although, perhaps take this with a pinch of wasabi, as I (for the first time in my life) baked a loaf of bread this last weekend….
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
I enjoyed it, too,
but perhaps because I have a half-researched Fanpost trying to decide if Boras is closer to Ari Fleischer or the barker from Firefly selling a mutated cow fetus as an alien…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
i wish he was closer to Ari Gold
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
Oh my God! It's grotesque!
Oh, and there’s something in a jar.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
the difference is, bad bread probably won't kill you.
bad raw fish? Yeah, i’ll pass.
Few things are better than good sushi, but It’s probably the only thing I’ll never, ever consider trying to make myself.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
pathetic pedantry alert:
sushi =/= raw fish. It’s just the rice bit (i.e. you can have vegetarian/meat-based sushi, or just plain rice, inari sushi (sweetened tofu) etc).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 6:12 AM EST up reply actions
wow, i did not know that
google confirms you are right. Good stuff.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Someone told me that the secret in making good sushi
is to soak the rice in Sake overnight. I am too lazy so I have never tried it that way.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
The difference between the sales
pitch you heard and the one Boras is making: Boras isn’t saying this to the seller. He could do so directly if he wished. He’s saying it to the media. His pitch to the seller is likely entirely different. Boras is just trying to incite action by stirring up the fans. If he can make them believe that fans will say – no games for me this year, he thinks he has a better chance of getting them to react.
So far, I’m proud of the Cards for not bidding against themselves.
Good point. I think Boras definitely keeps a certain audience in mind with his comments.
Rome is the mob!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
The Mob Says
Mattimus! Mattimus! Mattimus!
SD
by Gibby45 on Dec 10, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
But we tore down our Colliseum.
so mob rule has no effect here now.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 10, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
His seller pitch
also will involve dubious PowerPoint slides.
I don't often comment, but when I do, I only comment on VivaElBirdos.
i would seriously pay good money
to see the powerpoint slides that baseball agents show teams… esp a good agent, like boras.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Gunshyness
The Cards may have made an offer to Holliday behind closed doors, but they, and as far as I can tell nobody else has, made an offer and been willing to admit it.
I wonder what others opinions on this are?
I mean, the Cards clearly want Holliday (up to a point), and I can assume someone (although I think probably not many) feel similarly.
I just don’t know so I ask- what is the risk of making the first offer to a top-shelf free agent? Is it simply that it will get rejected and drive the price up?
Boras, kinda, sorta, gave a ballpark figure to the media “Texeirian.” The Cards have been noticeably quiet in response to that and I assume it’s for a reason.
Are there any lawyers corporate lawyers among us who may be able to shed light on the risk of making the first offer?
When making such a preemptive offer, I wonder how likely that offer is to be intentionally low, as a starting point.
Much like Boras’ starting point was the stupid 23 million per year figure, I wonder if the Cardinals start with an offer that they know is too low, just to set some extremes within which to bargain.
Also, the term “Teixeirian” seems really cool to me for some reason, especially the way it is pronounced. Like an alien race, maybe. Sir, the leader of the Teixeirian fleet is hailing us! They’re bringing reinforcements on maximum warp but they want at least a 7-battle commitment averaging 19 trillion astro-centiquids per! Shall I respond?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Yes?
No wait: No.
Erm, what do you think?
by arch support on Dec 10, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I guess what I really meant was, how low do they start with
Are their low offers absolutely unrealistic, or only slightly unrealistic? Somewhere in between? Obviously they aren’t offering Holliday 5 million a year, but where does it start? 10? 12? Etc. Is it as unrealistic as Boras’ 23 per year?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I am no corporate lawyer
My understanding of some of the trade off is:
If too low, this might signal to the offeree that the offerer is not serious or create a negative negotiating environemtn (probably much more complicated in a non-2 party negotiations). Remember that the offeree is Matt Holliday, Boras is just the agent. So I don’t think we want to say to Matt Holliday that you are not valuable.
If too high, this leaves very little room to further negotiate.
The offer also gives other teams information.
An alternative model to the negotiations song and dance was Boulware (a tough General Electric VP who hard-bargained vs. labor with a take it or leave it type of offer). My understanding is that Boulwarism is really not practiced all that widely.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
I would say they started them out 13-14 cuz I really doubt he will take it unless
nothing else comes in and it’s not so low as to be offensive.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 10, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Teixeirian vs Centiquid
Who wins? DEATHMAAAAAAATCH!!!!
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Cage Match.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
i was really hoping for
a tables, ladders and chairs match…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
well duh
put them in the cage
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Hell in a Cell!
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
Negotiating 201
Sometimes a lowball opener irritates the opposition and delays serious negotiation; but lowball may be a good response an unrealistic opener from the other side. Among professionals who know each other’s strategies, a lowball followed by a series of calibrated increases can signal where the real ceiling is.
In this case, i wouldn’t recommend a lowball that might make Holliday feel insulted, or encourage bargain shoppers to get in the bidding.
Wait, and make a realistic offer, would be my advice.
I just repeated above what you said
in a much less eloquent way. I think I should learn to read the entire thread first before commenting. Bandwidth wasted.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
at least you wasted some more elucidating that fact
jk ;-)
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Does anybody know of any good game theory articles about baseball's FA market?
It’s a small niche, I know, but I’m currently an Econ major, primarily interested in game theory, who wants to get a job in baseball. Currently, I’m reading a great primer on game theory in general called “Rock, Paper, Scissors: Game Theory in Everyday Life,” but I want something a bit more focused on baseball
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Roger Abrams wrote that book
The Money Pitch: Baseball Free Agency and Salary Arbitration
available on amazon, but expensive
Risk of making first offer is overblown. . .
unless you are talking about an asset that no one knows how to value.
That is hardly the case here.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 10, 2009 10:52 AM EST reply actions
hehe
http://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/6536295714
No short-term make-good contract for Rick Ankiel. One club exec says Scott Boras wants 3 years and "big money’’ for Ankiel.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 10, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Boras should just intimate
that Ankiel will consider pitching again. But even then, who would give him three years.
by arch support on Dec 10, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Ed Wade and Brian Sabean are on the line.
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
Crasnik,
on the ESPN Winter Meetings Buzz:
jcrasnick: Teams are intrigued by Ankiel’s skills, but he had a rough 2009 after running into a wall in May and injuring his shoulder.
Boras, with the help of TLR, has ingeniously spread this falsehood. As if folks can’t go run a Day by Day Database search to show that Ankiel was horrible for the entire 2009 season. His numbers before the collision:
.247 BA / .326 OBP / .329 SLG / .721 OPS / 2 HR / 6 2B / 19 SO
.225 BA / .273 OBP / .382 SLG / .655 OPS / 9 HR / 15 2B / 81 SO
Sure, he put up worse numbers post-collision, but it’s not like his pre-collision line screams: “BIG MONEY!”
All of that said, I like Rick Ankiel and, like most Cardinal fans, want to see him succeed. I wish him the best.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Hey
Don’t think for one goddamn second that Ed Wade isn’t sitting in his office contemplating a 3Y$30M contract for Ankiel to play CF. I mean, that hill should slow him down enough that he won’t go crashing into the wall near as hard — that’s clearly been his problem the past couple of years.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
by fourstick on Dec 10, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
his egregious BB% is clearly a symptom of him thinking too much about crashing into walls and waking up in a cold sweat at night. I think Wade’s onto something here…
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
I only want him to succeed as a pitcher.
/still bitter
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I don't even want that anymore
I would crush me if Dick Ankiel actually achieved the potential of Rick Ankiel on the mound AFTER he left the Cardinals.
He can have success as a hitter, but not in the NL Central, thankyouverymuch.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
i just want him to go away & never hear his name mentioned again
he’s like that girl that f’s with you & does nothing but tease you. but now you’re finally old enough & are sick & tired of that game. you just want nothing to do with her & you just want her to go away & forget you were ever that stupid to play her games.
that’s how i feel about Dick. just go away & don’t ever tease us fans ever again
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
now we know how you feel about dick
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
now we know how you feel about dick
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
well, that was SBN'd pretty quick.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
well, that was SBN'd pretty quick.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
It's fixed now I think.
They were experiencing technical difficulties.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
they were do for the weekly f up
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
that's what she said.
that’s how i feel about Dick. just go away & don’t ever tease us fans ever again
really? no one else before me?
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
blame SBN, we were locked out for about 45min there
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
.326 + .329 is .721?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Dec 11, 2009 12:21 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Welcome to Nineteen Eighty-Four
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
Smoltz, Philly rumors
http://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/6534925530
Phillies now taking hard look at John Smoltz as back-of-bullpen weapon. Heard Smoltz’s agent told them “no problem” w Citizens Bank Park
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I'm having such a hard time keeping track of whether or not Smoltz would be willing to pitch from the bullpen.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
SMOLTZ FOR CLOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
He'd never ever pitch from the bullpen, ever again! He hates it, precious!
No, wait, he’d love to close tight games in a bandbox stadium that is prone to homers!
No, wait, he has like a million offers to start, screw the bullpen.
No, wait, he just wants to help out a team any way he can because he’s classy like that. Bullpen it is!
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Dec 10, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I keep telling you guys
don’t underestimate a midlife crisis of a guy who was the best in the game
I really do hope Carp or his number one fan Adam chat with him before he makes a decision, because tooling around with all those tapes of his old games can wipe out the magic of the Man Stew pretty quick…
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I wonder if this is just his agent trying to bring someone else into negotiations
“Oh, no, no problem with Citizens Bank Park. None whatsoever. And he’ll pitch in your bullpen! What a guy!”
I just don't think he really needs to drum up business.
A lot of teams would take Smoltz.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Dec 10, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Brewers increasing their offer to Craig Counsell
http://twitter.com/AdamMcCalvy/status/6532931863
#Brewers upped offer to Craig Counsell this morning. GM Melvin, "confident we’ll get it done.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Thank goodness for Melvin.
If they had a better GM, I’m fairly certain that their rotation would be far better today and their playoff prospects far better as well.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Eh. . .
I may be the only person, but I actually think the Brewers should be a much better team in 2010 than they were in 2009. In fact, they scare me quite a bit. Randy Wolf can still pitch, and so can Latroy Hawkins. The defense should be better, and the offense only slightly worse, if at all.
Now, I reserve the right to rescind all of this if Mark Mulder actually becomes a Brewer.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 10, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
They still need
another quality starter, and they don’t have one.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Enter Mark Mulder!
Just kidding. You’re right about that, but they came into the season needing more than that. On paper right now they are a better team than they were last season.
I also reserve the right to change my opinion if the Brewers sign Jason Marquis.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 10, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
if by another, you mean two or three.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
I think one more quality starter
would actually make them a much better team. Gallardo is a beast and I think Parra is going to rebound to somewhere near where a #3 or #4 starter might be, so they really need a solid #2 starter on their staff and I think their team would be much better.
Signing Penny or Harden to those low cost deals would have been smart.
Trading for Millwood also would have been a good idea.
If they could have moved both Hardy and Fielder in the same deal for a young stud pitcher and a minor league 1B (like Bucholz and Lars Anderson) that would have been a smart move, since Mat Gamel could play first base next year.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
agreed
and from our standpoint, the pitchers only need to be good enough to beat the Cards…
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
The crazy thing is
they could have gotten Harden AND Penny for about $6M more than Wolf will cost them next year.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
ahahaha.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Or about $2.25m more than Wolf and Hawkins cost them next year!!!
without having to pay them a penny in 2010 or 2011….
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, i kinda agree
on one hand, they had a lot of bad luck in 09. Whilst they’ve lost Hardy and Cameron, they should get a solid year from escobar (Gomez less so) and they’ve got Weeks back, which should soften the blow.
Their pitching isn’t very good but it can’t really be any worse than last year – I think their SPs put up about 2 WAR combined or something ridiculous, and that was all thanks to Gallardo. Suppan will probably still suck, but I can’t see him getting worse (if he does they can probably just find a replacement-level FAT to eat his innings), Parra has some talent (as he showed in 08) and it’s possible he puts it together a bit better, if not, well, he’ll be no worse than he was in 09. Wolf’s a lot better than Looper, even if he only throws 120-odd innings. Dave Bush will probably go back to being a bit-below-average, at worst (good K/BB ratio, struggles with the HR – that’s correctable). They probably need another pitcher but, really, 2009 was pretty much a worst-case scenario year for them and they were still vaguely competitive.
I think we’ve a chance of extending the gulf depending on how we spend the last $20m or so, but right now they’re definitely in the hunt.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
Spending $40 million plus...
on the Hawkins-Wolf-Counsell three-headed monster definitely makes the Brew Crew favorites for third place in the NL Central next year.
Plus the Astros now have Lyons, Lindstrom, and Majewski to cover the sixth, seventh, and eighth… How will anyone score?
MB for LF in 2010!
I just don't get it
How can these people be so incompetent? Do the owners not catch on? Are they oblivious? I don’t understand.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
Isn't it amazing?
If I had an enterprise that was worth hundreds of millions of dollars, I would educate myself about it so that I could have at least some idea as to whether my front office was running it into the ground. Most of these guys are successful businesspeople, which makes it all the more bizarre that they seemingly allow GMs to run their franchises into the ground without the bat of an eye (at least until the sports page columnists start sounding off).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Possibly useful insight from the comment section at fangraphs:
Before every goes on blaming this entirely on Ed Wade, let’s not forget that Uncle Drayton McLane is the one REALLY running the show in Houston. Let us also not forget that he didn’t have a clue what a double, an intentional walk, or even the infield fly rule was when he bought the team. The idiots in Houston start at the top (Drayton) and trickle down to us lowly fans (me) who continue to go spend money at "The Juicebox,"
Also, with regard to Doug Melvin, it’s flat-out difficult to admit you missed your window and need to spend the next couple years rebuilding. Maybe ownership won’t even let him do that.
MB for LF in 2010!
There's a reason why Nolan Ryan
is working for the Rangers and not the Astros. That reason is Drayton McLane. Tom Hicks has pretty much let Ryan and the GM run the show, and the Rangers are getting much better since he left control of the team to people who know things about baseball.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I don't think that they missed their window.
I think that Melvin slammed it shut by signing mid-to-back-of-the-rotation starters to front-of-the-rotation deals. For my many criticisms of Jocketty, his handling of the Suppan negotiations was exactly correct. Melvin made a horrendous decision on that one, and it has cost the Brewers dearly as they have a ton of their payroll tied up in a no. 5 starter (and maybe not even deserving of that rotation spot).
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
He was obviously signed
for his baserunning prowess and he could pitch to boot. Much like the Cubs signed Marquis for his bat.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
While I think Melvin has actually. . .
done a pretty good job this offseason, it is true that the Suppan and Looper contracts were horrible. Interesting comp for Mr. Piniero this offseason, IMHO, and I’m a Piniero fan.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
While I think Melvin has actually. . .
done a pretty good job this offseason
Hmmmm I’m not convinced. He signed Wolf to a contract that is WAY bigger in years and $ than what Penny and Harden settled for, and I think Penny and Harden are both probably better pitchers. Then he signed Hawkins (a bullpen arm, when they’re desperate for more SP and possibly an OF bat) for what could generously be described as a contract that’s maybe just about fair. He’s also blown all their money at the beginning of December. They’ll be kicking themselves when the likes of Brett Myers and Kiko Calero are signing for next to nothing in February.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I can't blame anyone for not signing Harden
I think the dude is seriously, seriously hurt, like arm hanging from a string hurt. Why else would he be shut down down the stretch last season?
Wolf’s health history is better than either of those guys, IMHO, and he’s made 30+ starts each of the last two years. I’ll be honest, I don’t understand all of the lack of respect for Wolf on these boards. Now, I don’t think that Wolf is a great fit for the Brewers’ park; he’s a flyball guy. Still, he’s got better stuff than Suppan ever did, and I think he’s a much safer health bet than Harden and a slightly better health bet than Penny.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
More on the health issue
Wolf’s health issue has arguably been fixed. He’s had two Tommy Johns and a labrum repair. Since then, he’s been remarkably durable, making 33 and 32 starts in the last two seasons.
Penny has not yet had a corrective surgery, and has had the ever-so-scary shoulder problems.
Harden has pitched 128, 46, 25, 148, and 141 innings in the past 5 years and has been reportedly diagnosed with a parttial tear in shoulder cartilage (??).
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Now, I don’t think that Wolf is a great fit for the Brewers’ park; he’s a flyball guy. Still, he’s got better stuff than Suppan ever did, and I think he’s a much safer health bet than Harden and a slightly better health bet than Penny.
You may well be right. However, he got nearly four times as much money, guaranteed, in his contract as Harden or Penny, and, say what you will about either guy, but historically Wolf’s had a LOT of injury issues (not just the same one, either) and his two recent seasons look like outliers, health-wise. Yes, they certainly make it more likely he’ll throw 180+ IP the next three years, but I’d still say there’s more chance Wolf misses significant time in THREE years than there is that Penny misses significant time in ONE year, given Penny (pre-08) was far more durable than Wolf anyhow.
Personally, I think Penny and Wolf are equally good, equally risky pitchers. Difference is, one of them got 1 yr, $7.5m guaranteed, and one of them got 3 years, $31m guaranteed. I know which deal I’d rather be signing.
Harden’s more of a risk, but he’s a better pitcher. The Brewers need innings, lots of them, so he probably wasn’t ideal for them. I see him as a better fit for a solid team that already has a couple of aces and wants to gamble on a third (Cardinals) or a team that needs to take some real high upside risks to contend (Orioles, and maybe the Rangers see themselves in that category).
You may well be right on Harden, I happily concede that. However, even if Wolf is a “slightly better” health bet than Penny, that in no way justifies giving him 2 more guaranteed years and a lot more money, as far as I can see. They mis-judged the market and gave out a long-term deal to a middling starter when all the other middling starters seem to signing for one year.
Also, at the rate they’re paying Wolf, he needs to be steadily above-average (AND not get injured) to break even. At the sort of value THEY need to be recouping from a 3/30 deal (IMO, 3 wins per year), they’re not getting very close – Wolf has been worth more than 3 wins twice in the last 8 years, and has never broken that level of value by much.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
totally agree
and the brewers really need to get more than 3 war per $10M, given their salary limitations. 3/31M makes me giddy.
now, if only the cubs would give that same deal to pineiro…
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Aren't all 3 in the same neighborhood per year?
There is an irony in arguing that they need starting pitching and arguing that they erred in not signing Rich Harden. Melvin has also said they would like to sign another starter. I’m not sure why you say they’ve “blown all their money.” They’re also probably pretty set on their starting OF and 4th OF.
where's the money coming to sign another starter?
from what I see, they had 10m for Cameron coming off the books, whatever they were paying Hardy in arbitration (I suspect no more than a couple of mill), and what they were paying Looper (4.75m). Given you’ve spent nearly $15m on Wolf and Hawkins, signed Zaun for $2.5m, and owe Fielder an extra $4m PLUS arbitration raises for Hart and Bush (who are going to get solid bumps), PLUS you need to re-sign Rickie Weeks, I dunno they’ll have much left to spend on another starter – I guess it’s possible another Looper-level (~$5m) guy could get picked up, but surely you’re out of the running for Lackey, Sheets, Bedard, maybe even Myers etc now, unless there’s a pretty large payroll bump, which I hadn’t heard about? Even if you sign no-one else I’m pretty sure that team is costing quite a bit more than last year’s.
I assumed another OF might be good business because Carlos Gomez figures to be the CF and he’s really bad at baseball. I realise he presumably still has some projection left, which is what you’re banking on, but if he puts up another .277 wOBA year, do you really want him playing CF every day? I assumed a cheap backup or platoon partner would be useful. I suppose you could just get Gerut or someone back on the cheap.
There is an irony in arguing that they need starting pitching and arguing that they erred in not signing Rich Harden.
I don’t think irony is what you think it is. You would make a good sportscaster.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Gomez is strictly a cheap defense-first play in CF
Any offense they get from him has to be considered gravy. Probably pretty smart since Wolf is a flyball pitcher.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
True
but he’s also really bad. Going from Mike Cameron to Carlos Gomez is a collosal drop-off in value, probably at least 3 wins, unless he learns to hit. His bat is not good enough, at present, to be in the major leagues, unless he improves. He’s probably little better than Shane Robinson (although I appreciate he has more talent and has more chance of actually being useful at some point, whereas Robinson’s ceiling is probably in the 2009 Gomez range).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Its nice you've done advanced payroll analysis
I haven’t lately. You got the Zaun and Hardy numbers wrong though. I’m not sure what their payroll limit is, but they’ve been doing well with tickets and sponsorships.
I was going by the dictionary definition of irony. Harden could be described as an injury guarantee rather than a risk. The Cubs took a Bellichek style attitude to his health problems, but he spent time not pitching when they said he wasn’t injured and some of his starts his velo was poor. He also had a number of starts where he didn’t go deep. HIs history prior to that included a lot of time off with injuries.
I don't want to get into a dull discussion about the definition of irony
but saying “The brewers need starting pitching so they erred in not signing Rich Harden” (which I didn’t, I actually think Penny’s a better fit for them, along with guys like Millwood, Pineiro and maybe even a Myers or something) is not ironic. There is no irony in that statement.
People use “irony” as proxies for lots of things that aren’t ironic, IMO, although it could be argued the actual meaning has kindof been diluted as a result.
Zaun was $2.15m. I beg your pardon. Still, 350k is not really making much of a difference either way. Looks like Hardy had $4.65m last year now I check, which is actually a bit more than I expected.
So how much more do you think you’re likely to spend?
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think Penny is a better fit for the Cards
I could see him doing better there than anywhere else. I could also see him doing quite poorly.
Here is part of your argument on the horrible job Melvin is doing:
He signed Wolf to a contract that is WAY bigger in years and $ than what Penny and Harden settled for, and I think Penny and Harden are both probably better pitchers
Harden is almost a certainty to spend time off between starts and to go short in many games. That causes a lot of problems that are only alleviated by more pitchers.
I’m pretty sure they can sign one or more pitchers who are available for “next to nothing.” I wouldn’t even be surprised if they could sign someone like Sheets to a fairly significant deal. I think Sheets wants a big stage though and I don’t think he’ll be all that cheap.
are we talking texas or milwaukee here?
I didn’t say Melvin was doing a terrible job. He’s not Ed Wade. You’re perhaps right about harden, but when he IS pitching he’s much better than Wolf. He’s a risk, but IMO maybe the Brewers need a risk. I’d say they’re roughly comparable in terms of overall value in 2010 – Wolf is more likely to go more innings, Harden will probably be a bit better.
Still, if Harden gets hurt, the Rangers pay him $7m and then he’s out of town. If Wolf gets hurt, you’re paying him $30m over the next three years.
Do you really think there was any need to give that length of contract to Wolf? The annual value is fine – it’s just that longer deals magnify the risk. It’s hard to see much difference between Wolf, Penny and Harden in overall value, and two of them signed for one year, and will only get paid $7m if they get injured. Randy Wolf, he of the “I’ve only broken 200 IP a couple of times in the last 7 or 8 years” fame, is getting $30m over 3 years. I’m not saying Wolf’s bad, just that the ends do not justify the means.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
That Hawkins contract is terrible.
Just terrible. He’s in his late-30s and doesn’t strike that many batters out as compared to what you’d expect. Also, the Wolf deal is terrible, IMO. They could have signed two scraps off the heap to low-base, high-incentive deals, installed them in the rotation, and probably added a few wins. And I’m not even talking Dempster scraps, I’m talking Penny, Harden, Smoltz, etc.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I'll disagree with you on Wolf. . .
They’re paying him to be a mid-rotation starter, and that’s about what he profiles to be. In fact, money and length of contract aside, I would rather have Wolf than Penny. Of course, the Cards can’t commit another pitcher to long-term money, so the Penny deal makes more sense, and I think the potential upside with Penny is a bit higher (although because he’s more of an injury-risk and an a-hole risk, I think there’s more of a downside, too).
I initially wasn’t bothered by the Hawkins deal, but after looking at it, yeah, that money could probably have been a bit better spent.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
3 years at just under $30MM is too much for Milwaukee to pay for a mid-30s middle-of-the rotation starter.
This means that they actually have more money being spent on the bottom sixty percent of their rotation than the top twenty percent. It’s a horrendous allocation of resources by Melvin. And they’re paying a guy who has had three arm surgeries for his Age 34, 35, and 36 seasons. It makes no sense to me whatsoever for a team of their payroll, especially when coupled with the Hawkins signing.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
3 years / $30MM
is pretty much the market for FA mid-rotation starters.
And your argument that it’s a horrendous allocation of resources by Melvin penalizes him for Galladro and Parra being cost-controlled. That’s hardly fair.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
How does it penalize him for Gallardo and Parra being cost-controlled?
40 percent of his rotation is cost-controlled. That’s a leg up for him, but it doesn’t mean that he should go out and overpay in years and dollars for mediocrity. Even a franchise like the Cardinals cannot afford to do that. Just look at the horrendous Kyle Lohse contract. The only reason it is better than Wolf’s is because Kyle Lohse will be the age Wolf will be next Opening Day when the Lohse contract ends.
I imagine this to be Melvin’s thought process:
“Two elbow surgeries. Check. A shoulder surgery. Check. Age? 34. Check. Declining strikeout rate? Check. 2009 BABIP 50 points lower than career average? Check. 3.23 ERA? Awesome! Okay, how about three years and $29-point-something million? Great.”
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
There is A Bit of an X Factor Here Woth Mentioning, IMO...
…and that is that Wolfie is a lefty – that in itself gives him extra value, but he also gets extra-extra value for the brew Crew since Wolfie now pitches for them in our division. Didja see cow we struggled against even below-average lefties? Overall I don’t think the cowtract was very good, but I don’t see it as a disaster for the brewers either. Wolf has the stuff, has a decent offense backing him up: if he has a healthy season he might be a #2 pitcher for them.
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
The lefty issue re: the Cards is overblown
look at the OPS for each player last year vs lefties.
Anything jump out at you as regards who especially sucks?
The worst offenders were Duncan, Ankiel, Rasmus, Thurston and Schumaker. Skippy now has a decent platoon mate who can vaguely hit lefties (Lugo), and Rasmus has shown some signs of being able to hit them and, if not, will presumably have a right-handed platoon partner better than the likes of Shane Robinson next year.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
and obviously the other three are loooong gone.
if anything, I could see us struggling vs righties more this year. I’m concerned that we have ONE lefty power bat (Rasmus) and only one other lefty with any sort of MLB hitting ability (Schumaker). Unless Mark Hamilton can be vaguely acceptable in LF (doubtful) I think we’ll have to go external to find another left-handed bat this off-season.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
My point was in response to this comment:
“This means that they actually have more money being spent on the bottom sixty percent of their rotation than the top twenty percent. It’s a horrendous allocation of resources by Melvin.”
Well, of course they do. Gallardo and Parra are still cost-controlled. Would you think more of Melvin if he filled the bottom of the rotation with guys that cost less than the cost-controlled Gallardo and Parra? Mark Mulder? Mike Parisi? Brad Thompson? Todd Wellemeyer?
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
The point is
he could have done as good or better than Wolf for far less money and far fewer years. We’ve discussed over and over at VEB how many league average starters there are on the market that could be had on one or two year deals for not much money. Two of them have signed to deals below what even we thought would be their market value: Penny and Harden. The other one signed with Milwaukee for way more than anyone thought he would get. I mean, Ben Sheets for 1Y$10M is probably a better gamble than Wolf for 3Y$31M, because he’s a better pitcher when he’s healthy and if he gets hurt, he’s off the books next year. If he pitches well, you might be able to snag a Type B comp pick for him.
Milwaukee really should be looking to win next year. They can’t really look beyond that, because I don’t think they can afford Prince long term, Weeks has to be re-signed, Hart will get good arbitration raises, and Gallardo isn’t going to be cheap forever. He’ll be in arbitration for the last two years of the Wolf contract, and will probably do pretty well.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
You may disagree
but its not like its a radical theory that Penny and/or Harden at about the same price per year are poorer choices.
FWIW, next year they have about 20 million coming off the books and they lose Soup and Riske. Hall is already gone.
but they're not paying the same price per year
they’re paying more, and giving him 3 years as well. Wolf on the Penny contract would’ve been fine. Wolf on a contract that pays him more than Tim Hudson, not so much.
It’s also his age 34, 35 and 36 seasons, and he’s been historically very injury prone. I think if the Brewers come off winners on this one it’ll be more due to luck than judgement.
Why not just give Sheets $12m for one year?
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Not much more
Tim Hudson doesn’t really mean much as he gave a deal to the Braves. If the Brewers could have signed him for the same contract, they probably would have. Penny carries his variable performance and personal baggage with him as well.
Nobody including the Cards and Yanks will give Sheets 12m guaranteed or at least that’s my guess.
Penny has been no more inconsistent than Wolf has
Penny carries his variable performance and personal baggage with him as well.
I don’t really recall him having too many personal issues that ended up on the field, although he does seem to be a bit of an asshole/hothead in general.
You might be right about Sheets – even more reason to sign him! If he’s halfway healthy, he’s way better than Wolf and could be had for one year.
I just don’t think you’re going to convince anyone that 3/30 for Wolf was a very good deal, frankly.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
No, it's not
However, gambling that Randy Wolf is going to be as good as he was last year and the year before by giving him a 3Y contract at age 34 isn’t exactly rocket science either. That’s essentially what they’re doing. The last time Wolf had back to back seasons of 190+ innings, he spent the next three years recovering from various arm injuries. I’m not saying that’s going to happen this time, but why pay a guy for three years when you could pay Penny or Harden for one.
Hell, they could have probably had Tim Hudson for a few million more over three years, and he’s a much better pitcher than Wolf is.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Hudson's getting less, actually
3/28 instead of 3/30. Although I assume if the Brewers had just equalled the Braves’ price he’d have probably stayed in Atlanta, so I guess you’re right.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
And FWIW I think the Hudson contract was an overpay too...
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by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Probably
I think it would have taken a vesting option year on the end or another $3+M per season to pry him from Atlanta. I think that’s a bit much, but I also think that he’s liable to be much better than Randy Wolf over those three years if they’re both healthy.
Both guys strike me as similar injury risks as well.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Yes...
FWIW, next year they have about 20 million coming off the books and they lose Soup and Riske. Hall is already gone.
However, all that money is going to now be tied up in your own players:
- Fielder will be looking for a long term deal as a FA. Anything short of $16M per season and he’s probably gone.
- Hart will be in Arb III unless they ink him to a long term deal. That’s about $8M or so right there if he plays well.
- Weeks will be a FA and need to be resigned.
- Gallardo will be entering arbitration after the 2011 season and will probably get a pretty good payday, or else a long term deal.
That’s a lot of money that will be going out the door, just to keep your own players. If Braun weren’t signed so cheap, they’d be in arbitration/FA hell over the next two seasons.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
3 years / $30MM
is pretty much the market for FA mid-rotation starters.
Also, I disagree with that. Three or four such starters have signed ALREADY this winter for MUCH less than that.
Penny is pretty equivalent to Wolf, and he signed for one year and <$10m. Harden is more risky but overall he’s probably in the same league as Wolf, again, one year <$10m.
Andy Pettitte is BETTER than Wolf, also a lefty, much more durable, and signed for one year, $11m.
Brett Myers is similar and will probably sign for one year, ~$7m or something.
Carl Pavano is similar and accepted arbitration, and will be lucky to break one year, $5m.
Justin Duschcherer is as good as Wolf, although he’s had far bigger injury issues in the last couple of years, and probably won’t exceed 1yr $6m or something.
Tim Hudson is better than Wolf and signed for 3 years and slightly less money.
I’ve probably left someone out, but 3yrs/30m is the most any mid-rotation guy has signed for this year by some distance.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Duke's only started 22 MLB games
so doesn’t have much of a record, but he put up a 3.7 FIP in that time. 3.8 FIP career (both as a SP and a RP), Wolf’s is 4.28. He has a k/BB ratio of 3 (Wolf: 2.3). Duke’s ERA is 3.14 (Wolf’s is 4.13) and 45% GB% (Wolf is 39%).
So, yeah, very little track record but when he’s healthy he HAS out-performed Wolf. I’d rather have Wolf, though, because Duschcherer is a walking casualty.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
You left out
- Jason Marquis, who’s probably in the same class as Wolf is.
- Joel Piniero, who they could have probably signed to a similar contract
- Ben Sheets, who’s a better gamble for one year than Wolf is for three.
- John Smoltz
- Pedro Martinez
- Trading Mat Gamel for a young starter.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Wolf > Marquis
. . . unless you’re adding batting RAR to Marquis’ value.
Piniero is an interesting comp to Wolf. I actually like both of them, but I would also be mighty nervous to pay either of them what they will get in a multi-year deal, for different reasons, obviously. I bet Piniero gets more than Wolf.
I don’t think any of us know enough about Sheets’ health to say whether he’s a better bet than Wolf, although subject to medical info, I’d give him a Penny deal.
Wolf is a better pitcher right now than Pedro, and as much as I like Smoltz, Wolf is healthier, and maybe better.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
The difference between the last three on that list though
is that they would all take one year deals. So if they come in and stink up the joint or get hurt, they’re gone after that season. If Wolf gets hurt, they’ll pay him for three more seasons.
The difference between Wolf and the top two on the list is that neither of those guys has ever had a major injury. They may not have the upside that Wolf has, but they’ve got a much better shot at walking out there every 5th day. If you’re going to pay Wolf 3Y$30M, then paying Piniero and Marquis, who are also coming off of fine seasons, isn’t all that much different.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Marquis and Piniero.
It’s not about upside with Marquis, it’s about quality. He stinks on ice.
Here are his FIPS going backward from last year:
4.10, 4.61, 4.99, 5.90, 4.95, 4.55
He’s durable, sure, but is that a good thing?
Piniero is fascinating to me. I’m among those who think that his transformation is real. Even if it is real, he’ll regress to the mean, sure, and his dark art is heavily reliant on defense and the right park. I bet you 100 internet dollars he will get more AAV than Wolf, and probably for the same or more years. All that aside, his FIPS going backward are, with the exception of 09, scarier than Marquis’:
3.27, 4.71, 4.73, 5.24, 4.45, 4.41
and those last three were in Safeco (!!). The one thing that Piniero has in spades over everyone on any of these lists is durability. The only injury that he has ever had has been crappy-itis, and it at least appears not to be chronic.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
but both of them finally figured out how to be effective sinkerball pitchers last year. It seems like Marquis has finally bought into what Duncan was trying to tell him half a decade ago, and Piniero started listening to Dave in his contract year.
Nothing about Marquis’ peripherals was “lucky” last year, he just turned in a better than average year. Piniero walked a lot fewer people last year, got a ton more GB’s than at any other time in his career, but his HR/FB was probably a little lucky.
I think that you’re ignoring the fact that a pitcher can learn to pitch a different way or learn a new pitch and become a completely different pitcher. Might they regress some? Probably, mostly due to the lack of strikeouts, but I don’t think that both of them are going to go back to being the guys they were prior to last year.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Eh. . .
no mid-rotation guys have signed this year, at least not that were available to the Brewers, and certainly none of them have signed multi-year deals.
neither Hudson nor Pettitte were realistically available to the Brewers. Pavano isn’t available bcuz he accepted curly fries.
Penny is a worse bet to be a mid-rotation starter than Wolf. Same with Harden, but for different reasons.
I think you’re also ignoring that Wolf would have gotten more than $10M in a one-year deal. Probably $12M-$13M. He’s trading AAV for length of deal.
If Piniero signs for less than Wolf, or Lackey signs within $2M AAV of Wolf, then we can talk.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
So you're saying
that the Brewers would rather pay him $10M for three years than $12M-$13M for one? That’s just a horrible idea in itself, really. I could buy that they thought there were other bidders out there who would sign Wolf to a multi-year deal if they didn’t do it, but Felonius and I have kinda been making the point: “So what?” There are plenty of other options out that that are similar and cost either the same amount or less, with possibly fewer years, than Wolf did, so why overpay him to get him from someone else?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
And I'm arguing that the other options aren't similar
You can break down the differences in three categories:
A. Those that won’t provide the innings / are more of an injury risk
Harden, Penny, Pedro, Smoltz all fit here.
B. Those that won’t provide the quality
With the exception of Harden and possibly Smoltz, all of those in A are, I think, bigger performance risks than Wolf. I don’t like FIP for all purposes, but it can be predictive. Which of these pitchers would you rather have:
2007 / 2008 / 2009
Pitcher: GS-FIP / GS- FIP / GS – FIP
Wolf: 18 – 3.99. . . 33 – 4.17. . . 34 – 3.96
Penny: 33 – 3.63. . . 17 – 5.27. . . 30 – 4.46
Pedro: 5 – 1.92. . . 20 – 5.18. . . 9 – 4.28
Smoltz: 32 – 3.21. . . 5 – 2.35. . . 15 – 3.87
Smoltz has been the best, but he’s still a concern in A, even if you believe that he can sustain his level of performance. Pedro has been all over the map, Penny has been markedly worse. Wolf has been very consistent, and for the last two years, the most durable.
III. Those that would be more expensive.
Piniero, Lackey
As to your point regadinrding the Brewers preference, of course they would prefer to pay him $12M-$13M for one year, but Wolf wouldn’t take that deal, because there are other teams that will give him a multi-year deal for close to what the Brewers gave him.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
We obviously differ
on the term “long term risk”, so we’ll just agree to disagree.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I actually prefer the Hawkins deal to the Wold deal
Wolf has the chance to go spectacularly wrong (big downside) and the best that’ll happen is that he just about lives up to it (gives 3 years of mid-rotation SP performance, if healthy). It’s Kyle Lohse all over again.
Hawkins – well, they slightly over-paid a kinda OKish reliever. He’ll probably be better than the scraps they had in the bullpen anyhow, and he’s not making megabucks. I agree that money could’ve been better spent elsewhere and there are better bullpen options around for less money, but overall it’s a low-risk, low-reward move. Worst that might happen is they wasted $7m on Kyle McClellan.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
I love the Astros
Pedro Feliz close to signing with Astros
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
the numbers make it better
1y / 4 mill
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Aw
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
hmm...
not that much better. He’s such an awful hitter – they’ll be lucky to get a 250/300/350 line out of him. His slugging and UZR is trending down four years in a row, and now he’s 35 so the bottom could fall out at any time…
Granted, signing Feliz is not the biggest risk in the world, but this is a team that had a 68-94 pythag win-loss record, and went into the off-season planning on shaving salary. Wade had an estimated $10-$15 million to spend with holes at 3rd (Geoff Blum sux), short (Tejada gone), 2nd (Kaz Matsui sux), catcher (I-Rod gone), closer (Valverde gone), set-up man (Hawkins gone) and in the rotation (Moehler and Felipe Paulino currently penciled in).
How have they spent their money? $4.5 million for Feliz, around $5 million for Lyons, about $1 million for Lindstrom, and $650k for Majewski. That’s over $11 million for three crappy relievers and a one-win third sacker who could just as easily be worth 0 wins or less.
MB for LF in 2010!
"better" = "LOL at Astros"
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Pedro Feliz has his uses. . .
on a baseball field, even. I’m just not sure that the Astros are the team that can best use his (limited, dwindling mix of) skills.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 10, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I have a love/hate relationships with the Astros
I mean, I really hate them. Almost as much as the Cubs.
But then every offseason they do stuff like this, and I love it. It’s just awesome watching this team shoot itself in the foot over and over until there’s no more foot and then start shooting its way up the leg until it gets to the torso and soon it’s just a head next to a gun on the ground looking sad and winning 65 games a year.
by mojowo11 on Dec 10, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
ya, but they'll win 45 of those games in the 2nd half
so they’re clearly moving in the right direction
by brackenthebox on Dec 10, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Rec
Push for 5th place!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
as I said in the earlier thread
not enough recs. That comment needs recs, goddammit, it DEMANDS recs!
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that's not the worst signing ever
Fills a need, cheap contract, will recoup some of his offensive value with excellent (though declining) defense
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
Kind of funny.
Say what you wil about Keith Law, but this is pretty amusing:
keithlaw: If some baseball ops assistant pulls up a player’s Baseball Reference page, does that count as “exploring” or “discussing” a deal?
If it were Heyman, I would go for the team “inquiring about” the player…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Breaking News: Cardinals sign VexedTechie
Primary role: utilizing fat butt to keep bench warm during early-season and late-season games. Also to roll around on grass following rain delays to help dry the field.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
where's the photoshop incentive???
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
It's not an incentive-based contract. They already knew I do that for free.
My agent sucks.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Twitter Rumor: Boras looking for three years and big money for VexedTechie
“VexedTechie is a very good warmer. He’s a complete Heater. Certainly Anyone Else can take up space. But VexedTechie is hotter than a nuclear meltdown. He’s really warm, just feel him. He could have been a benchwarmer in the NFL. He’s that kind of guy.
I mean, I compare him to Alex Rodriguez in the beginning of 2009
That’s the kind of benchwarming production you can expect from vexedtechie. That’s elite benchwarming.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Boras: Signing VexedTechie like keeping two players for Cardinals
“When you talk about what that means to that franchise and where they are in the development process without VEXEDTECHIE, you kind of have to look at the components and say, You may not be signing one player, you may be making a decision on whether you’re going to retain two players," Boras said this afternoon at the Winter Meetings, emphasizing VEXEDTECHIE’s value as a consistent warmer for Pujols’ behind.
"Prior to VEXEDTECHIE … he’s [Pujols] getting chilled a lot … It’s just tough to find players who can take on warming the behind of Albert Pujols. That’s value."
While the Cardinals are certainly
players for VEXEDTECHIE, they need to realize that there are many suitors for his services. Some teams out there don’t even know that they want him yet.
* is an Asshat
Where do we line up for autographs?
Cuz I want to put in an order for one from Pujols, Yadi, Carp, ADAM, Corbin, and Boog. Did you get that Vexed or should I e-mail it to ya?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 10, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
Gotcha...
Only one problem…I misread the contract.
They want me to keep the benches warm during the OFF-SEASON…
brb pneumonia.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry about the pneumonia.
Dammit! just my luck. I finally know somebody with an inside lane and find out it’s a mirage.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 11, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Hey Vexed,
Could you set me up with Colby please? Thank you!
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
BTW, this thread has made me laugh...
…and a hearty chuckle from me is worth about 1.5 normal laughs.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
You're like my dad in that way.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
...aw, now i feel older than i should...
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
welcome to my hell
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
was totally trying to figure out a sandwich for vexed.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
VexedBLT?
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
I approve.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
APPROVE WITH RECS
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 6:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
we knew we could count on you, spants
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
Boras is the Rosenhaus of the MLB
Boras is greedy and wants his players to have the best contracts possible. That’s why it’s hard to deal with free agents who have Boras as their agent.
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Or: Boras simply wants to be the best at his job. And he is.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen; the saddest are these: 'It might have been!'
or Gordon Gecko
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 10, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
*er...Gekko.
lousy Geico commercials.
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 10, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
I'm holding you personally responsible
for my finding out about this:
Wall Street 2: Money Never Sleeps
by brackenthebox on Dec 10, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
but, but,
it’s got Shia LaBeouf!
Albertofstan.
F* Yeah!
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Dec 10, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
That must mean Decepticons will attack Wall Street.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Dec 10, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
i thought the deceplticons WERE wall street.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
who hates shia labeouf?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
half the time i hate him, half the time i like him
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
If you were Scott Boras
why wouldn’t you want this? He spends more than any other agent on training facilities, specialty coaches, workout coordinators, and other stuff to prepare his players and give them a space to prepare themselves.
The better deals you get for your clients, the more clients you’re going to obtain because they know that you are looking out for their best interests. You can be upset with HOW he gets his clients the best deals, but I don’t think you can argue WHY he does so.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
While I don't like Boras...I do respect him, its the same thing with a competitor who is besting you
I don’t like him, wish he wasn’t around and all that because he is good at what he does and makes my life harder, but if I was in his industry would I emulate him..probably.
I never understood that saying.
How can you respect someone you hate or despise. That’s just PC crap to me.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Dec 10, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
First, there are people I dislike and do not respect...
for example this personal injury attorney who is opposing me in a corporate litigation case and does not seem to be competent but definitely enjoys bluffing and blustering and filing things that really deserve sanctions. I don’t respect him (even though by strict ethical standards I need to show respect to him) and don’t like him.
So, what I mean by the ‘I don’t like him, but respect him’ is that we aren’t friends and I don’t think I would ask him and his family over to my house for dinner (probably would in reality but only because he is a celebrity and knows a lot more) but I recognize his talent and would take that into consideration when dealing with him and act accordingly.
Ultimately....
..this undermines the game, which is bad in the long run for his clients.
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
in the long run, he'll have bought his own private island and won't care.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
exactly what I was thinking...
I was in a “debate” with a guy at work. He thought the owner of 321Studios was such a poor business man because they weren’t still in business today even though they made around 300 mil.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
Which is Why I Hate Him.
Boras would have been an excellent drug dealer; shame he didn;t have the cajones to try.
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
There is a difference between greed and wanting what is best for your clients
Being a good agent is looking out for the best contract for your clients, taking into account things like winning team, location, manager, etc.
Being greedy is looking for the most money just so that you get the best cut, upping your % cut just because you are “the best” things like that.
Personally it appears to me that Boras is in between those two.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
I wish I could have Scott Boras
renegotiating my salary, lol.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
by fourstick on Dec 10, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
"JD is the creme de la creme of graduate students"
“He easily deserves $60k when all his peers are making $15k”
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
a prof in my department claims to have renegotiated his stiped during graduate school
this prof is, however, patently insane. I’m not sure if this makes his claim more or less believable.
by brackenthebox on Dec 10, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
The girl I share a cubicle with in the lab said her graduate student association unionized
They got awesome stipends and awesome insurance. If I wasn’t graduating so soon I may propose this idea to our GSA.
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 10, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
here's another story
Obviously I don’t know your girl’s situation. But when GRAs and GTAs unionize years ago when I was in school (Univ. of CA) they got promised a lot and delivered very little. For the life of me I didn’t understand why UAW should represent us instead of a teachers union like AFT. Anyways, they got us some worthless dental insurance that didn’t pay for a thing.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
UAW? Good God!
I worked in a automotive fiberglass parts plant for about 5 1/2 years that was UAW (Utterly&Absolutely Worthless). Between the union and the useless people that milked workman’s comp to death, they ran that plant out of town. I have no use for the UAW.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 10, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
them & teamsters f'ed my dad when he got hurt
they are nothing but a bunch of greedy POS’s who don’t give a damn about there members. the sooner the country wakes up that unions are evil, the better off it will be.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Unions aren't necessarily evil.
A lot of the skilled trades unions are actually pretty good. They get the most money for their members but at the same time if you don’t do your job correctly they’ll bust your ass. A friend of mine is a boilermaker and he said they don’t put up with much bullshit, it’s do your job or get out. I was a millwright at the time myself.
But then you have the UAW and the teamsters that are two of the most crooked outfits there are. They just got too damn big. But they got that way because of it being in the hands of the owners for so long. The owners abused their workers since the beginning of time, not all, but a good portion. Take the coal mines for instance. The owners, still today, will cut corners as much as they can. How many people have died because of equipment not being correct. It’s not the unions, it’s the people behind the unions.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 10, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah down with Unions but....
They did get Highway 40 done months ahead of time and saved $11 million dollars but down with Unions.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
when you watch your dad die & your mom lose everything
because his unions refused to have his back after 30years of service, come to me then & tell me how great you think they are
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
by gdm426 on Dec 10, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
sorry, if you can't tell, this is a very sore subject for me
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i have had better experiences with unions
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 11, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
that's great, really
my grandpa in ark has too & he’s flabbergasted at what happened to my folks. he worked in the aluminum industry & never had any problems
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I can honeslty say I wouldn't be where I am in life without unions
and I’ve never been in one. I know they’re sometimes royally fucked up (what isn’t?) and I feel sorry for you and your family being betrayed by them, but they’ve done a hell of a lot of good for generations of Americans.
i would agree with that
and i used to be a big union guy because my dad was. but i can’t sit here & tell anyone to have anything to do with the uaw or teamsters. i know the STL is a big pro union town, heck that one the snow man does commercials for has those commercials running all the time during baseball season. and i’m sure the smaller ones aren’t nearly as crooked & corrupt as uaw & teamsters.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
i bet they don't call him the white rat
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
You have no idea how hard it is
to find Farva’s line of “Cap you know I’m not a pro-union guy” in video on the webernets. So I’ll just go ahead and assume you’ll do the right thing and pop in Super Troopers and watch it for yourself. You are way better at finding what you need on the internet than me.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Me Too...
…the UAW was great to my dad and his generation of workers on the lines. Any Wal-Mart worker say that?
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
I don't think that today's UAW is the same one your dad had.
But what ever is?
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 11, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I never said "down with unions".
I was merely pointing out that unions are only what people make them to be. They can be a great benefit, my grandfather was a railroader and had a job all through the Depression, not a great paying job but a job. Or they can be a great hinderance, UAW & Teamsters, who strong everybody that doesn’t give just what they want.
It is unbelievable what the difference in wages for our UAW plant and the BIG 3 plants and our plant was way harder work in dirtier conditions. They wouldn’t let us do anything about it because it might disrupt product flow. My particular experience with them left me with a bad taste in my mouth. They also had this wonderful policy of help out the troublemakers and hang the people that did their job and might get in trouble once. I witnessed that more than once. We had the most unbelievable deadbeats you ever saw.
I am glad that you haven’t had a bad experience with unions, hope you never do, I am just not impressed with the UAW.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 11, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
JD
Our GSA did too. It ended up paying for the health insurance that Cornell MANDATED (still pisses me off)…a mandatory $800 a semester never factored into the whole stipend consideration thing.
Like most things, I think the key is negotiating what you want it to do for you BEFORE you sign on the dotted line. Looks like others here have not had such a great experience, but I suppose it also varies a lot by application and sector.
She actually went to Cornell
Small world
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
It's not necessarily a bad thing to want your players to have the best contracts.
He just does his job better than anyone else. I don’t like him but I respect him for doing his job well.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
The rule 5 draft was discussed a little earlier, but
does anyone understand the lefty we picked up in the major league portion?
I just read that Mo doesn’t think he’ll compete for a specialist role or for the 5th rotation spot, but that he could be used as a long reliever…. don’t we have enough guys to fill that role in our own minor league system? This makes me think the Cards aren’t considering Garcia for the 5th spot in the rotation and he will start the season at Memphis, and Boggs will be the 5th starter (If Smoltz or another FA isn’t sighned). Personally, I think this pick was just a waste of time, but it’s only $50,000.
I just think it is a move made of depth
I don’t though see how this move works unless everyone gets injured somehow. He is a soft tossing lefty so it is not like he has the stuff to impress. He is a control artist that you appreciate over a longer period of time. I think he will be cut at the end of spring training. Mo just wanted a guy for the Cardinals to prepare off of for the regular season.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 10, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Am I the only one who doesn't expect to sign Holliday?
I consider him a former Cardinal already. I’ll jump for joy if we lock him up, but in my mind and heart he was a half-summer rental. I don’t see any good getting my hopes up.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
I wouldn't get your hopes up...
From what I’ve seen, there’s a lower chance he comes back than there was at the end of the season, but a higher chance he comes back at a reasonable price. I just don’t see him getting his 6/132 now.
MB for LF in 2010!
50/50
I think that the price has come down, seeing as how the prices being paid (by non-idiot GMs at least) for FAs so far have been very reasonable. Fortunately, non-idiot GMs no longer run teams with the financial wherewithal to sign Holliday.
In fact, I think that the price may come down so much that I actually wouldn’t mind signing him.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 10, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
I want to be able to think that way.
But I cannot. Sometimes being an eternal optimist is not so good.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I don't think its a question of optimism
I don’t have a negative feeling about the team or our chances, so I wouldn’t qualify it as pessimism. But wherever my hope/optimism lies, its in the team and not contingent on the ambition, greed or whim of a player who has only been a Cardinal for a few months.
I wish Matt the best and hope he gets what he wants. I really hope that he wants to play for the Cardinals, but you can’t really fault the guy if he doesn’t.
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
I didn't say anything about the team's chances.
I am optimistic about our signing Matt Holliday. That has very little to do with whether or not I think the team does well. Because being an eternal optimist I tend to think we will win the Central next year and make it to the WS and then lose to the Indians in a 7 game series with the final game being decided in the bottom of the 9th inning (because let’s be honest do we see the NL winning the All Star game ever again… kidding) by a home run hit by Grady Sizemore who goes on to become the AL MVP. Keep in mind this is how every year plays out in my head so there is no real reason to my madness.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
i don't have any expectation
and i never really considered him a cardinal
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I always thought the point of these sorts of Boras tactics was to get the fans on 'his side'
and put more pressure on the ballclub. That’s the only way it makes sense to me.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
i don't have much to say today that i haven't already said about Lego
Boras is trying to fan the flames & get the sawx, Yanks mets & angels to the table. he’s dying to get the Cards to make a bid so he can take it to them & show them for only a little more they can have Lego. i knew this would happen, i predicted it would happen. i’m just surprised DeWitt & Co aren’t playing Boras’s game. i think they are doing the right thing. don’t engage him, don’t fall for his tricks. just smile, nod & do nothing but engage in small talk with him.
i will say this, Boras isn’t doing himself any favors by pulling crap like this
Boras recently has offered public critique of the Cardinals’ spending habits — particularly their aggressive payment schedule for new Busch Stadium — and apparently reiterated those beliefs to team chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. One club source termed a portion of Sunday night’s 90-minute meeting with Boras a “lecture” of DeWitt.
if i was DeWitt, i would have told him to shove it. it’s not his biz how i run my team or pay off my debt. i’m doing what’s best for me & he needs to know his role & STFU.
i don’t know how this is going to end. i expect it to end badly for us because that’s just how things seem to go when the Cards try to land a big free agent. i’m more concerned with Mo & Luhnow rebuilding the farm than i am Dewitt & Co ponying up to pay Lego. that will determine the Cards future success moar than one over hyped, over paid LF who may or may not have had a cojones transplant over the winter
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
if i was DeWitt, i would have told him to shove it. it’s not his biz how i run my team or pay off my debt. i’m doing what’s best for me & he needs to know his role & STFU.
this is possibly one of the reasons why you are not holding the purse-strings of a multi-million dollar business….
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 10, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
But he was nominated for President of Albertofstan.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
nominated yes, elected, no
yes my ginger fueled temper probably won’t let allow me to get far in this life. but DeWitt doesn’t have to set there & be lectured by an agent about how he runs the Cardinals. especially when said agent is trying to play him into over spending on an overrated left fielder. if they want to pay off the stadium sooner rather than later, it’s his & his partners call. not Scott Boras or anyone else who isn’t part of the ownership group.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Well I don't know if we've had elections yet.
Or if we have I wasn’t invited.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I really hope Albertofstan doesn't become an anarcho-syndicalist collective
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I agree with Mr. Monk here
You have to have pretty thick skin to negotiate well. Who gives a F if someone lectures me? As long as I get my objective, Lego for a fair price, I will be happy. But I do hear gdm’s point about telling Boras to shove it. I guess I have been pretty impressed with Mo and DeWitt so far in how they have handled things publicly. I really think the market is in our favor and things will turn out well.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
I think they have a secret backroom
with a tap and a dartboard, and say “Can you believe what the motherfucker said?” “He’s so full of shit.” This goes on for an hour or so.
After a while Mo takes out the darts. He never misses.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 10, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Boras is showing DeWitt a huge lack of respect. he's just trying to get Lego paid
and he has the nerve to sit there & tells him how to run his business? i don’t think so, F that. Scotty doesn’t know everything about running a team & what exactly the Cards do have or don’t have to spend or where they put their money. i don’t view Boras like most do, i actually like him & how he gets the most money for his clients. but i think he’s flat out wrong here to try & tell DeWitt how to run the team. in this instance he’s wrong. Scotty doesn’t know everything about every team like he thinks he does.
Scotty doesn’t know! Scotty doesn’t know! Scotty doesn’t know! Scotty doesn’t know! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
btw, that’s the coolest thing damon has evar done
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Eurotrip reference = Awesome
When that movie first came out we rigged my buddy Scott’s phone to use that ringtone for every incoming text and phone call. Seven Shades of Awesome, lol.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
excellent movie....and fiona...holy balls. Sorry Scotty....
but she’s under me and I’m not stopping.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I think he upgraded with the German chick
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
i don't think there is an upgrade from kristin kreuk.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I think there is plenty of upgradable room there
her constant lip-pursing really f***ing annoys me. This from a guy who owns every season of Smallville….
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
As someone else who owns every season of Smallville,
I find your sentiments difficult to understand.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I have a place she can lip purse.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
I bet that you do :)
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
She was always the weak link on that show, imo
I was so happy when they finally killed her off. Erica Durance is FAR hotter than Kristin Kreuk, and judging by Ms. Kreuk’s lack of TV show and movie offers since leaving Smallville, Hollywood seems to agree with me.
I don’t watch the show for her — I think it’s actually pretty well written for what it is, and the constant tie ins with guest starts former roles and with other comic book series’ are very well done.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i used to love her character till they hooked her up with Lex
that’s when the show jumped the shark for me. my dad was a huge superman fan & we had to watch that show every week, even when the Cards were playing. i actually liked the show for a while, but not so much anymore. to this day i still watch it though i guess out of some kind of stupid remembrance for my dad. like i know if he was still here he’d still be watching it, so i have to watch it because he can’t.
i do think kristin is far more attractive than erica though. for one, erica’s married & gdm never looks at another man’s woman. and two she’s not all real. i have nothing against fake parts, but there’s something about an all natural woman that is more appealing to me. i guess i respect a woman who doesn’t make that choice to upgrade her body & instead is far more comfortable with herself & doesn’t care what anyone else thinks.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I think this new season
has kinda gotten the show back on track actually. Clark interested in Lois, both working at the Planet, moving towards Superman actually revealing himself to the public, etc.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i think i'm just tired of the show
i do agree it’s better than the last two seasons, but i just don’t care anymore.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
the other possibility is, like a game of poker
Boras is just seeing if DeWitt flinches. 90 minutes is a long time to look for tells.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 10, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Until DeWitt
gets up from the table and leaves the room quietly, without saying so much as a word.
That’s how I would have handled that meeting.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
well, if Boras brought snacks, I can see him staying until the chips were gone.
then he leaves the room.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Depends on the chips
I mean, if he brought Salt and Vinegar Kettle Chips, I could be talked into staying. But if they’re just plain old Lays (or for that matter, Doritos, BLECH!) that’s just not keeping me around.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
he probably had barbecue and sour cream, just in case
he is the most professional agent in the world, after all.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Dec 11, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
I'm a big fan of Poore Brothers Salt and Vinegar
Chip meme a-brewin’????
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
i love doritos, especially the BBQ & cool ranch flavors which i don't think they make anymore
cheetos are also high on the list, the low salt lays are #1 on said lists
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
I think they still make cool ranch
I see it down here. Of course, in the south, people put ranch dressing on everything. I don’t, but lots of people do.
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 12, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
I like the Sweet and Spicy Chili Doritos.
But I will never eat them again. Too addictive.
Now with extra feisty!
And I also really like Red Hot Ripplets
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
In Handegg news...
…The former national champs are in the middle of a meltdown. HahahaHA!
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Oh that game made me so happy.
We are talking about the pro handegg, not the college handegg right?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, a nuclear reactor went haywire outside of Gainesville
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
Oh man.
That sucks.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
You know, CG
It really does
/old memes
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Pro. Yes...
…Cleveland, hahaha. 200yds rushing on one of “the best” D’s in the NFL.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
And Cleveland is such an amazing team so it makes so much sense.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah...remember when Jamal lewis was good?
And not injured? He didn’t even do the running. Haha
Brady Quinn completed 30% of his passes for almost 90 yards….and somehow Pittsburgh finds a way to fart away the game. I love it.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
Meanwhile the city of Cleveland suffers a heart attack and dies
because they actually beat the Steelers.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
At least Cleveland's not Detroit
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
teehee
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
too bad no one can get anywhere because of all the snow
they’re getting 2-3 FEET up there these past few days
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
oh i thought we were talking about cleveland
poor kirksville is under 10 feet. may the lord baby jesus have mercy on their souls
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Oh so much snow.
Snow, snow, snow. I love you snow. Denver here I come after I graduate!
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
i like you, but you're weird
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
he was a flipping beast at UT
Jamal, that is
Really, the only bad part of bacon is that it makes you thirsty . . . for more bacon
sodomize handegg.
sodomize it right up the ass.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 6:22 AM EST up reply actions
The Rams fans thank your Steelers.
In fact, the Steelers may ne the Rams MVP, for losiong to the Chiefs, Browns, and Raiders.
Ndmonakkahamalamadingdong Suh, here we come!
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Suh would be a good pick
I think that Claussen or Locker would be much better for the Rams. They need a franchise QB badly. To be honest, if they really wanted to upgrade at both spots I’m guessing that KC could be talked into trading Glenn Dorsey for a couple of picks since he really doesn’t fit into their 3-4 scheme.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
QBs in the draft are such a crapshoot though
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not convinced that any QB in this draft. . .
will be worth the high pick that the Rams are going to have, although I am gratified that you named Claussen and Locker rather than the unholy trinity of busts-waiting-to-happen of McCoy, Tebow, and Bradford.
I just think that Suh is that Warren Sapp / Reggie White type of difference-maker that only comes along once every ten years or so. In a perfect world, he would win the Heisman.
I also think that Suh is surest thing in this draft, and the Rams really can’t afford to waste another high pick.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
I think defensive tackles
can be found in other rounds. I also think you can limit the amount of talent you need at those positions by setting up different schemes to play on defense.
The hardest thing to find in pro football is a competent signal caller. I think both Locker and Claussen have very good pro prospects. I think Claussen is a much better QB than Brady Quinn was, he just played on some ND teams with horrible defenses and got overshadowed. He can make every throw on the football field and played almost exclusively under center in his three years of college, which is a huge plus for NFL teams. Like Trent Dilfer said about Mark Sanchez last year, and Matt Ryan the year before: “This guy will shoot up draft boards as coaches and scouts watch his game film and get a look at his arm strength at the combine.”
I believe that to be the case for both Locker and Sanchez. If the Rams added a QB that could make deep throws and be fairly accurate, the rest of the pieces are in place.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Rams
I agree that defensive tackles bacn be found in other rounds, but not ones like Suh. I really think he is that much of a difference-maker.
I have not watched Claussen much, but in those instances that I have watched him, I think that your analysis is spot on. I have not watched him enough to know whether he has the ability to read defenses, coolly run through his receiver options, and make the right decisions in the face of a pass rush. Then there’s also the personality issues, which can basically be boiled down to is he a dumba** to whom I want to commit several million dollars. If the answers to all of those questions are yes, then I would not be opposed to selecting him. But because being an NFL QB is harder than being a DT, I’d have to be very convinced.
I do not know enough about Locker to comment, but the analysis that I believe the Rams should employ is the same.
I disagree with you that the Rams have all of the pieces in place. I am no Mark Bulger apologist, believe me. He has turned into an awful, awful QB. He misses wide open receivers by large margins, he has happy feet and generally makes bad decisions, usually erring on the conservative side. But that being said, their receiving corps is far below average (I thought Randy McMichael was supposed to be a good receiver?), and their offensive line, while improved immensely from the depths of their 08 funk, still leaves a lot to be desired, particularly on the pass blocking front. And if Alex Barron leaves, as everyone suspects, well that’s another hole you have to fill. Barron has been disappointing, sure, but he’s at least average as a tackle. And while I’m a believer in Jason Smith, his concussion is pretty scary. And on the defenseive side of the ball, with the exception of James Laurinitis, who profiles as a very good MLB (he’s not there quite yet, but you can see that he should get there), they are below-average on the line and in the secondary.
That’s all a long-winded way of saying that the Rams have serious enough holes that they should draft the best player available. That may be Claussen or Locker, but IMHO, Suh is the leader in the clubhouse (golf analogy there, I know nothing about his personality) and it’s a pretty tall mountain that Claussen or Locker have to climb to get over him.
I also think that with Stephen Jackson and the run-first offense that the Rams hope to employ, the importance of a franchise QB is less than it would be under other systems, and the importance of a franchise DT is more than it owuld be under other systems. That’s not to say that a franchise DT would be more important than a franchise QB, but the gulf is a lot narrower under the Rams system. Granted, there are counter-arguments to be made that given the life of a typical NFL RB, that making decisions based on Jackson’s greatness is folly.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
umm... is this a football blog or baseball blog....I also do see too much about hockey
in here as well. Baseball is the only one and true sport. If it wasn’t for the DH rule in the other league, it would be perfect.
handegg = the devil
it’s science
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Dec 11, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
SODOMIZE HANDEGG
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
I think your answer is correct but you have not shown your work
Did you steal the teacher’s edition of the textbook or something?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I disagree on the offensive side of the ball
Bulger has been terrible. TERRIBLE. A 56% completion percentage is awful for an NFL QB. I mean, he’s not Jamarcus Russell awful, but he’s still pretty damn bad. The elite QB’s put up numbers between 65% and 70% most years, and even your league average guys like Garrard and Orton average around 60%. If you put someone back there who is more accurate, say league average accurate, I think that the receivers would actually look a lot better.
Donnie Avery would be a great receiver if he could be used like Minnesota (my fav team) uses Percy Harvin. Move him around, put him in the slot, in the backfield, in motion, split him out with a flanker inside so he gets one-on-one coverage. He has good hands and very good speed and is a pretty good route runner — he’s just not that tall and, frankly, Bulger can’t get him the ball where he can be effective after the catch.
Keenan Burton and Laurent Robinson both have some talent — they just aren’t every down receivers, they’re third receiver/slot type guys. McMichael is pretty good when you can deliver the ball to him. What they lack is a true #1 receiver that can stretch the field. Avery isn’t that guy. If you look at the potential FA this coming offseason, there’s a good number of those type of wideouts who will be UFA after this season. Lee Evans, Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson, Braylon Edwards (Jets version), Domenik Hixon — all those guys are deep threats, and Marshall and Jackson are legit Pro Bowl WR. That’s without including Terrell Owens, who I wouldn’t want on my team, and Anquan Boldin, who could be acquired in trade since he’s still upset about his situation in Arizona.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Agreed on the need for a #1 receiver. . .
and agreed that Donnie Avery ain’t it.
and agreed that Burton and Robinson have talent/potential, and I’d even throw Amendola and Brandon Gibson in there, too, and maybe even Ernie Kent’s son. But none of them are #1s, and all of them have some work to do to live up to their potential.
NFL teams don’t often let true impact players get away, even if they are UFAs, so I find it hard to believe that the Rams would have a shot at Marshall or Jackson.
Bulger is really bad, maybe even historically awful, but his receivers haven’t gotten much separation this year, even against sorry teams like the adult Cubs.
And while the line is very good at run blocking, it’s still mediocre at best in pass protection.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 11, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
They have some issues up front, that's for sure...
I do think that the key to offensive line play, though, is to keep a unit of decent talent together for a few years — they generally perform better then. The Broncos under Shanahan employed this tactic, as did the Chiefs and Rams under Vermeil, the Pats under Belichick, the Giants in the entire Coughlin era, and pretty much any Bill Parcells coached team did this as well. I don’t think you need sweeping upgrades, just a little better than average talent and time.
I don’t see Jackson getting out of San Diego, but I still don’t think that Brandon Marshall likes being in Denver, and Lee Evans is probably on his way out of Buffalo as well. Put him on turf in a dome and I think he’s a totally different player (although a QB with some talent would probably help too)
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Dorsey
is actually playing much better this year. I don’t think KC will trade him. He is one of a few players there to hang onto: Cassel (because of money, not the talent), Albert, Shields (unless they can get a good draft pick for him), Charles, Bowe?, Flowers, Carr, Dorsey, Hali. That’s about it.
try being a cowboys fans
the december face palm is no picnic every f’ing year
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
every year?
Didn’t you win a few titles back there in the early 90’s? Yah, thought so.
Try being a Bills of Vikings fan (Been there 4 times, lost all four) — it’s like rooting for the football version of the fucking Cubs for chrissakes. You just wonder when the next bad things is going to happen. I’ve been waiting for one of Favre’s 5 INT stinkers all year and have resigned myself to the fact that it’s probably going to happen against Green Bay in the second round of the playoffs.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
every year since 97, it's very embarrassing
ever since jerry took total control as the GM, they haven’t been able to win in december or the playoffs. even with the big tuna as coach they just can’t win when it matters.
of course you’re right, it’s better now than it was in the 80’s when i was a kid. or better than being a bills fan. i’ve always kind of liked the vikings, i don’t know why i have no reason to. with farve, harrison & petterson they are pretty exciting to watch this year. the three games i’ve seen them play that is. i’d be worried about farve if i was you too.
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Icing or Frosting?
Let the great debate begin.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
I say both.
I don’t really know which I use more. I am no help.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Icing is the stupidest penalty in all of sport.
by Mister Eff on Dec 11, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Went to an IHL game last night....
….never have I seen that many icing calls in a game.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
More like "Let 'Em Fight!"
It was a kinda “rivalry” game and any little scuffle was immediately broken up.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Dec 11, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
agreed
used to piss me off royally in NHLPA hockey. Ahhhh, happy days.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 6:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I am interested to hear how you did that.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I bought my wife tickets to A Christmas Carol at the Fox
as a surprise early Christmas present. We both thought it was a play. Nope, musical.
I don’t care for musicals.
Oh.
Well I could have told you it was a musical. Why didn’t you ask?
I miss the Fox Theatre.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Well I love plays.
I just don’t need people breaking out in song every other fucking minute. I wanted to scream “DEVELOP THE PLOT!” during one of the five minute songs about nothing.
A Christmas Carol should be a play, not a musical.
West Side Story, on the other hand, is completely awesome.
Now with extra feisty!
I meant A Christmas Carol.
West Side Story is indeed awesome.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I prefer West Side Story in Drum-Corps form.
See the Blue Devils’ 1998 performance.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
However, favorite show ever...
2003 Blue Devils – The Phenomenon of Cool
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
And in case anyone's actually watching these...
Here’s my 3rd favorite show
2004 Cavaliers – 007
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
We were sitting in the rich peoples seats (which are less than upper deck seats at Busch)
and the owner of my wifes company was a few seats down from us (the guy owns his own island!). He came over to say hello to the wife right before it started and she said “Did you know this was a musical?” He said “No,” then turned to his wife and said “This is a musical? Why?!?”
We’re pretty sure he was drunk.
I would be BLASTED at a musical
slobbering, incoherent, and somebody else’s problem.
This is why I go to shitty movies at the Moolah…full.fucking.bar and leather couches. Best $9 nap ever.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
If I owned my own island, I would be drunk at inappropriate places 24/7
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
Would you have an interstate system on your highway?
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
highway = island.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Nah
Just bars and walking paths
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
hmmm..... what is inappropriate on a private island?
Is a tree involved?
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 11, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
How much time would I actually spend on that island?
When I’m stateside, I would totally be an inappropriate dick
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
I would want an island with minimal communication
Maybe a phone but no internet.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 11, 2009 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
Yay!
Aw
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
just don't expect them to go out in the sun
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
If I had more money than god
1st thing I would do is buy an island….the playboy mansion wouldn’t have SHIT on it. I wonder if Tattoo is still available or even alive…
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
No; What's worse is..
….that Weng Weng, tattoo’s superior Philipino protege, is also, sadly, demised. But yeah, I’d buy a midget too.
:=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
I'm getting a feeling of de ja vu
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
does he need a guy to do stuff on said island?
because, you know, i could totally do stuff on a island
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
do what to them?
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
that's the one.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
crikey
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
Somehow that reminds me of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVJxupNR5GM
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
A Christmas Carol is one of my favourite stories ever
and I too am not a musical fan. It saddens me to see it cheapened in the form of musical theatre (and this is coming from someone who quite liked even the muppet version…)
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 11, 2009 6:23 AM EST up reply actions
I have no idea what just happened here.
I thought that worked pretty well with what you replied too.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't like it when some of my friend's went to see Twilight ironically
don’t encourage that shit
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 11, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
for sure
that just makes me more mad. there’s tons of independent flicks and whatever to spend your money on, and they are spending it on that crap. unbelievable
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 12, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
I barely have time to see movies unironically these days.
Let alone ironically.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
That the main consumers are thirteen old girls.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
It happens worldwide.
Teenage girls are the biggest CD buyers in my country, too. Boy groups always dominate best-selling charts every year.
Cardinals fan from Korea
That Justin Timberlake
is a force of nature that needs to be reckoned with. Can anyone even name the other guys in that group?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
JC Chasez, Joey Fatone, Lance Bass, and Chris Kilpatrick (I totally blanked on the fifth one, he may be a Backstreet Boy).
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Oh hahahaha.
Well. Now I’m embarrassed.
I was like that’s four now who’s the 5th one? Not remembering that the fifth one had already been named.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Dec 11, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Rock and Roll
Nickelback is like Kenny Chesney with power chords. Ugh.
The key to selling rock records is to sound like Kenny Chesney without the twang, and the key to selling country records is to make southern rock music that references tractors being sexy, having shirts with no sleeves, or playing rock music while wearing a leather cowboy hat everywhere you go.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
If I were the fightin' type I'd beat him up for free.
You don’t have to call me Waylan Jennings (hello, hello)
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I own fourteen copies myself
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Damn it, man. I stopped at 13!
I should have known that wasn’t enough to be the best…
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I actually went to a N' Sync concert before
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 11, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Well someone gave me 4 tickets to sell to their concert cause he could not go
I went down their with 2 of my friends hoping to scalp them for beer money. It didn’t work out as planned. No one wanted them and it was just so cold outside. So said F it and went inside. MILF’s galore with a bunch of cute girls.
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 11, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Was there beer on sale?
I would have just gotten tanked
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
I've said it before
and I’ll say it again. When let to their own devices the masses tend toward the lowest common denominator. Which is why I’ve made a life of going the opposite way of everyone else… and I have no albums like that as a skeleton in my closet.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Yikes
I’m so torn!
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in France?
by jd is legend on Dec 11, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder how much of the money is differed
by FlimtotheFlam on Dec 11, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
i'm betting around 50%
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
in other holiday news
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
anyone else think its weird that the FO of the Cardinals seems to be just like any other office...
cheesy parties, etc.
it's like a real office, not like the cubs...
they gave themselves the gift of stainless steel troughs
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
damnit and here i already got a new avatar
Every morning I wake up & smoke a dart. Then I eat five strips of bacon, & for lunch I eat a bacon sandwich. And for a midday snack? Bacon! A whole damn plate! And I usually drink my dinner. And I'm still here! Sometimes I wonder if God forgot about me.
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