Cardinals win hotly-contested Ruben Gotay sweepstakes
Yesterday the Cardinals added their first free agent of the off-season, and his name wasn't Holliday, Cameron, Harden, Lackey or even Kearns. The identity of our latest redbird? Ex-Kansas, NYM and Atlanta Braves utility guy Ruben Gotay, who signed a one-year minor league deal with an invite to spring training. In the likely event that we hold onto him, he won't make more than the league minimum in 2010.
So, in the manner of my epoch-making post last year looking at 2009 Cardinals MVP Royce Ring, I thought I'd take a quick look at his career so far and see if there's any way he can make a significant contribution to our 2010 season.
Gotay is 26, and has bounced around AAA and MLB clubs the last 5 years, after being drafted as an 18-year-old out of Indian HIlls Community College in the 31st round of the 2000 draft. In 2004 and 2005, he was a bit-part player with the sorry Royals, putting up sub-.300 wOBAs with mediocre defence in the middle infield. In 06, he was traded to the Mets for in a two-way young, mediocre utility infielder swap for Jeff Keppinger (who had a nice 2007 with the Reds before becoming one of the worst players in baseball in 2008). Gotay spent 2006 as a 23 year-old in the AAA affiliates of the Royals and Mets, doing little with the bat to suggest he was likely to rake at MLB level. He was, nonetheless, still somewhat young for that level (or for MLB), so perhaps there was still some projection left.
In 2007, Gotay enjoyed his strongest year, putting up a decent .335 wOBA with a .351 OBP and 4 HR in 211 major league plate appearances with the Mets. He spent most of that time, as he has done throughout his career, at 2nd base or as an occasional pinch hitter.
In 2008, Gotay began a 2-year "journeyman" period, making his only MLB starts with the Braves, where he put up a .299 wOBA, on track with his .300 career line, in 117 PA mostly off the bench. He did, however, up his walkrate to a palatable 11.3%.
In 2009, after a short spell on the books in Pittsburgh, he landed in Arizona's AAA affiliate in Reno, and put up his strongest professional season to date at age 26 - despite not getting the call from the major league team, Gotay put up an enormous 21.6% (!) BB%, getting on-base at a .429 clip, and hit 11 dingers, putting up a .395 wOBA. I'd be inclined to take the increased power (Gotay had never reached double-figures in HR for any professional season) as a park effect - although I can't get park factors for AAA Reno (as the D'Backs affiliate played in Tucson before 2009), looking at the stats of that ballclub it seems pretty clear that it's a very good hitters' park indeed. That said, a 21.6% BB rate is nothing to sniff at, especially given that his previous season saw an uptick in walks as well.
Gotay is a switch-hitter, and can play 2B, 3B or (at a pinch) SS. He's basically put up the equivalent of a little over one year of UZR data at major league level (spread over several seasons) at 2B and comes in at a disappointing -7.7 runs, entirely due to poor range (his arm and glove and generally believed to be decent). He's likely better at 3B, although he probably doesn't have the bat to stick there in the majors. If he makes a start for us in the majors at shortstop, ever, let's just say we've probably got some pretty major injury issues there.
Career major league line in 811 PA: .255/.315/.371. Very marginal. Career wOBA of .300. However, I do believe there's a chance he's better than this line, as he put up many of his plate appearances as a 21/22-year-old in Kansas, when he predictably struggled. His stats since then (at AAA and MLB) have improved slightly, but he's still unlikely to sniff league-average offensive production and, at best, will be a useful backup guy with an ability to get on-base.
Gotay is best used against right-handed pitching as a left-hander. He's put up a decent line of .267/.316/.404 and has all but one of his MLB HR from this side. That's actually not a bad line, but given Schu is our 2B and hits right-handed pitching well, and Gotay doesn't have the bat to play 3B, it's hard to see where he fits in. In a pretty tiny sample size, Gotay doesn't hit left-handed pitching well, so it's hard to see any world where he's more use than Julio Lugo.
Overall, it's difficult to see where Gotay fits in, or why we need to add another utility middle-infielder when we just let Hoffpauir walk (unless Gotay's crazy BB% from AAA last year is a sign that he's really maturing at the age of 26, although it should be said that we got great offensive seasons from Tyler Greene, who has a great glove, and Jarrett Hoffpauir, who had more pop than Gotay, at AAA last year). It's hard to see how he's any better than Brian Barden, who likely has a slightly better glove (and, unless we look at 2009 stats in a vacuum, when Barden sucked and Gotay was excellent at AAA, a better bat).
Having another warm body can't hurt, I suppose, unless.... and here's the big problem - Gotay, if he's used with the same level of organisational sense that our AAA management wheeled out Jarrett Hoffpauir day-in, day-out as out starting 2B at Memphis last year after a genuine high-end prospect (Dan Descalso) had been brought up, could end up blocking an actual potentially useful player. Descalso played too much 3B and altogether not enough 2B last year after his promotion to AAA Memphis, and if that happens again this year, it could serve to severely dent his development. It's probable that Gotay will merely be a fill-in at 2B, SS and 3B (at present, it seems likely that Barden will be our only AAA 3B, with David Freese likely in the majors and utility-catcher Brandon Yarbrough will leave as a MiLFA), which would, I guess, be fine - but WOE BETIDE anyone who f's with our Descalso! Chris Maloney, take heed.
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It's a good pickup I think
Frankly, 1 year of spread out UZR data means nothing in terms of measuring his defense going forward. If the Cardinals scouting reports say he’s a decent defender, and if he can walk at a ~15% clip, he’s basically Joe Thurston – with better hitting ability.
any FAT is a good pickup IMO
I’m just a little concerned about him taking PA away from Descalso. We’ll see what happens.
He’s also never got close to walking at a 15% clip. I’ll believe that when I see it, although last year’s AAA stats were a step in the right direction.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 1, 2009 6:19 AM EST up reply actions
until we break camp with 13 pitchers
and gotay as a member of the 4-man bench, i think this isn’t a terrible move.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
He sounds like
Joe Thurston Jr.
Unnecessary pickup.
by Cardsray on Dec 1, 2009 8:56 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Soriano
When Gotay was younger, people in Kansas City thought he was going to be a poor man’s Soriano (this was before Soriano totally fell off a cliff). As it turns out, they were sort of right, but not in the way they thought.
Also, the Royals do not play in Kansas. They play in Kansas City, Missouri.
He lives across the pond.
Where the Cardinals are obscure.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Dec 1, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
RuGo
He’s very happy. Oh, the juxtaposition…


[draws fire] Was Barton not cheerful enough? It would be nice to have more than one dude on the team who is mysteriously not that gritty. Circumstances and lack of execution did us in, there, however.
Otherwise, this is an intrrriiiggguing addition to Bench Watch.
http://kingsofkauffman.com/2009/11/30/where-have-you-gone-ruben-gotay/
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I'm not 100% positive you're angle here
but are you complaining about gettng rid of Barton again?
I thought that ship had sailed.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
not Barton specifically
Just the tacit rule that we can’t have more than one Black guy at the same time since, what, PDub and Belli?
- Gotay is Puerto Rican.
Why would you think that ship sailed? We got nothing for nothing for nothing on that exchange. The whole BB thing was bizarre. (and in general I don’t get why there’s so much meme-killing in a time period when there’s nothing to talk about.)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
^ and no, i'm not being remotely serious about the "tacit rule"
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
By "ship has sailed".
I thought people were done complaining about trading Barton.
I couldn’t really tell by your comment if you were complaining or not, but it just struck me as surprising IF someone was still holding a flame for Barton.
However I do think looking for meaning in the whole “one black guy at a time” thing is sort of strange. As you pointed out, Gotay (as well as Belliard) aren’t actually “black” so much as they are Puerto Rican and Dominican.
If were going to include them, why wouldn’t we include Pujols and Molina?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
that's why I said I wasn't serious
and probably tons of poor wording in that first comment
I will point out that Puerto Rican and Dominican and pretty much all cultures still have internal racism based on skin color. Colonial holdovers ftw. Google “skin whitener” for some… fun.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
now barton
would have made a great second baseman
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
I like this signing.
While I fear that it may lead to a bench of Gotay, Lugo, Thurston, and T-Greene to compliment the 13-man bullpen, we know what we have in Thurston and (kind of) Greene. Lugo is aging and an injury risk. Why not see if Gotay can be better?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Thurston is a minor league free agent
per mlb.com free agent tracker, Joe is a free agent. He was on Memphis’ roster for a very short period after being demoted, but no longer appears on Memphis’ roster.
These pickups are the kind that make me think "eh, no harm in a cheap FAT signing" until...
I realize that is what we all thought about Joe Thurston. You never know.
In Gotay’s defense, though, that AAA line is pretty kickass. He’s 26, which I believe puts him between Freese and Craig in age? Sure, he doesn’t really have a pedigree beyond that to speak of, so it’s probably somewhat fluky, but maybe the guy figured something out and bloomed late. No harm in taking a look (until it does become harmful because he plays too much, but that’s all speculation).
Finally, I have no idea what kind of faith is appropriate to put in the MinorLeagueSplits.com park and luck calculations, but they don’t think he really benefited from park effects at all. Also, the luck calculator thinks he was unlucky in AAA last year. So I guess the Cards are just taking a cheap gamble that he took a huge step forward. Probably not much will become of it (until we start reading quotes from Tony about how much he “likes Ruben’s approach and attitude” etc. etc.).
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Also, I just realized that the minorleaguesplits park effects don't seem to change any of the numbers, at all.
So I’m guessing that means that the park data wasn’t available and that button doesn’t actually do anything. Drat.
The luck thing still stands though.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
I suspect it's because there's no previous data to work from
most park effects (I believe) use a weighted 3-year regression of the data compared to the league average, and as the D’Backs AAA team have only been in Reno for one season, it’s not been done? I’m sure it would be possible to compare offensive output in that stadium to the PCL average (and, looking at some of the other lines in that team, it looks pretty hitter-friendly to me).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 1, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Makes sense
It’s hilarious to me that all the numbers were exactly the same and it took me a few looks back and forth to realize it.
Man, he has the same OPS with park adjustment turned on, cool dude!!1
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
reno, nevada
elevation – 7000 feet
gotta be a park issue there
I may be in a rut, but at least I know where I'm going
Also
just look at the OPSs the rest of the team put up. There’s a LOT of .800+s there.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 3, 2009 5:31 AM EST up reply actions
don't worry
I’m sure he will get out to hitting boot camp and Mac will teach him to hit more Dingers® which will make Gotay a more feasible option at third.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Any chance he helps make Skippy tradeable?
Skippy’s value is never going to get higher than it is now. He’s still cost-controlled for a few more seasons, he’s a passable top of the order hitter who has grown into an adequate defensive 2B in pretty short order.
If you can get a decent option at 3B, LF, or for the bottom of the rotation for Skippy, don’t you have to do it? I think I’d rather try to get by with Lugo/Gotay/fill-in-the-blank platoonapalooza at the keystone if it meant getting the SP equivalent of Skippy for the bottom of the rotation.
All of this presupposes that the front office is confident enough in (A) Lugo getting 450 ABs as your 2B starter, and/or (B) Gotay achieving a new level of performance, of course.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 1, 2009 12:17 PM EST reply actions
I think Skip's value is really hurt by the fact he's only the large end of a platoon
I dunno if anyone would be willing to give up much for a guy who can’t hit LHP at all and who’s coming into his arby years in an unfamiliar position. I think he’s probably more valuable to us than he would be in a trade.
No way I want to see either Lugo or Gotay (or even a platoon of the two) full-time at 2B next year. At least Schu’s bat is somewhat reliable. I just can’t see how we can project either Lugo or Gotay with any level of confidence whatsoever.
If we’re looking for cheap bottom of the rotation options, there’s plenty available in the FA market anyhow. We could probably get someone like Carl Pavano, who was well above-average last year, on a short-term deal for a bargain price.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 1, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Something I have wondered about Skip
is, if he hits RH pretty well and not LH why would he not switch to a shorter, more controlled swing against LH? I wonder if it is a matter of him just not seeing the ball out of a lefties hand very well. He might not get anymore hits but it might put him in a better chance TO get a hit. Just kinda puzzles me.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 1, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
So
do you change your golf swing when you’re in between clubs at a certain distance? No, you just choke up on the club a little more, because it’s really, really difficult to change your swing all the time depending on circumstances. Same with baseball — it’s one thing to be a switch hitter and try different things, it’s another to change your swing based on what side the pitcher is coming at you.
I really has nothing to do with his swing, it’s all about how he picks up the ball and the fact that, as a general rule, left handed hitters struggle more against left handed pitchers than right handed hitters struggle against right handed pitchers.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think you put something
like “Sign Carl Pavano!!!” in your sig since he comes up in about half of your comments anyway, Monk…
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
What can I say?
I’m a sucker for starting pitchers who’ll likely sign a 1-2 yr deal at about $5-6m per year who put up nearly 4 wins in 200 innings the year before….
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 2, 2009 7:00 AM EST up reply actions
Players who are only the large end of a platoon vary widely in valuation.
Curtis Granderson, and Eric Hinske are comparable hitters, but one is on a $30m deal and the other just reached the end of a $1.5m contract.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
I think Granderson's slightly better as a hitter, tbh
and certainly he’s wayyyy ahead with the glove.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 2, 2009 7:02 AM EST up reply actions
Big half of a platoon
But Skip rakes righties: 812 OPS last season. A lot of folks have been pimping Mike Cameron all off-season, and he’s the short end of a platoon. Granted, he holds the promise of being an above-average defensive LF, but still. . .
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 1, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
i don't think cameron was ever mentioned as a platoon
but rather as a starter who could on occasion, if he played LF, move over to spell klobby against some tougher lefties – in that event i would envision craig manning left. if cameron was the everyday CF, then it’s craig directly spelling klobby in LF. either way…
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Yup
no point signing Cameron to platoon. He likely hits righties better than anyone other than Colby and possibly Ludwick in our OF anyway.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 2, 2009 7:02 AM EST up reply actions
WAG Trade possibility
Anyone want to take a flyer on Skippy for Jeremy Bonderman in some shape? I’d think the Tigers would have to add a prospect or pick up at least some of Bonderman’s salary, but the Cards have had such success with medical rehab projects; Mark Mulder comes immediately to mind. . .
by SouthsideCardsFan on Dec 1, 2009 4:15 PM EST reply actions
I'll give them Ruben Gotay if they pick up Bonderman's salary.
Actually, scratch that.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
I don't really see the point trading a useful player for an injury risk on a multi-year deal
when we could just pick up a (better) injury-risk pitcher (Sheets, Bedard, Harden) for one year, without wasting Skip.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 2, 2009 7:05 AM EST up reply actions
I hope
that Tony doesn’t do a repeat of Thurston with Gotay. I also hate the move. Makes no sense whatsoever. They’ve got to go after DeRo, Holliday and Pineiro, and the first thing they do is sign Ruben Gotay (and Jason LaRue)? C’mon man!
Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Gotay cost nothing
He was free, with some upside and no downside, and signing him has absolutely zero effect on whether or not we resign the players you mentioned.
and see, zoomzoom
cards offered all three of your boys arb.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I don't hate the move
I actually like the fact Mo’s gone after some FAT the last two years, even though basically none of it has worked out (I was really high on Ian Ostlund this time last year, and he put up like a 5-ish FIP as a AAA Loogy in the end…). I’m just concerned Gotay takes ABs away from Descalso in AAA or Tyler Greene at MLB level, both of whom are better (and more promising) players. If he’s just there as an organisational depth guy/backup I’m fine with it, and I think there’s some upside based on his apparent “quantum leap” last year in AAA.
Also, signing these small deals now doesn’t mean anything with regard to bigger name FA like Holliday and DeRosa – those guys don’t sign within a couple of weeks of free agency, and they certainly don’t sign anywhere until the arb deadline (i.e. yesterday), so our lack of movement on those fronts isn’t surprising.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 2, 2009 7:08 AM EST up reply actions
I would say
that 90% of the time these moves never work out. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be made, because they are all upside moves, but rarely do you get a Ryan Ludwick.
Say what you want about the player evaluation skills of different organizations, but the fact that so few MLFA signings work out is kinda testament to most clubs knowing something about minor leaguers.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think you set your sights (expectations) too high.
Do you really believe the intention behind the signing of Ruben Gotay is for him to turn into the middle infield version of Ryan Ludwick?
I guess if that’s what you expect out of minor league free agents, then yeah, you probably are correct about that 90% failure rate.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
I don't think that's what he meant, exactly
but quite often BtB and FanGraphs and other sites big-up FAT players, and it’s pretty amazing how frequently they actually turn out to do nothing when given a chance (e.g. RJ Swindles this year). Usually there’s SOME reason not always obvious in a guy’s AAA line or limited MLB performance that he’s not caught on somewhere; sometimes not, but usually there’s a reason.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 2, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
I wish people would stop pretending playing Thurston was part of some "plan" by Tony...
Thurston got significant playing time only because everyone got hurt or sucked just as badly as he did, and it was before DeRosa came aboard. How much did Thurston play at the end of the year? He played like he was the 25th guy on the roster, which was always the “plan.”
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 2, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
except
no one got seriously pissed off at Thurston until AFTER DeRosa was added.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
except for gdm, who whipped out the bear at the end of May.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
just don't let him go in the polar bear pen.
there’s something bad happening there.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
huh? We have different recollections
by Willie McGee's Twin on Dec 2, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not recollecting, I'm rereading the game threads.
DeRosa came over at the end of June.
Thurston missed first base in July. That’s when it stopped being a general gripe about all the bench players and focused on his shoddy baserunning and execution.
I’m just sayin’, if you want to make a general point about what the community is or isn’t doing, it might be a good idea to see what the community actually said.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

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