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Comiskey and the Proto-Cardinals

Our look at the dominant St. Louis Browns of the 1880s could not have been better timed, apparently; up today at the Hardball Times is an excerpt from Chris Jaffe's monumental work on evaluating baseball's managers, Evaluating Baseball's Managers, that posits as an explanation for their success Charlie Comiskey's early focus on defense. It's worth reading if you're interested in managers in general; this is, as far as I can tell, the first serious, book-length attempt to understand managerial value since Bill James's more than a decade ago, and it looks extremely promising.

Pull-quote, chosen for maximum present-day relevance: 

Control pitching plus great defense equaled a dynasty for St. Louis in the 1880s.

The question arises how much credit Comiskey should be given for devising this strategy. Looking at the historical record, this philosophy originated in St. Louis in the 1880s. There were virtually no deep strategic concerns for the game prior to this period. As late as the 1890s, elemental bits of baseball fundamentals such as the cutoff play had not been worked out. [...] Other teams may have contained control pitchers and good fielders before, but none intentionally built their game around these twin pillars of run prevention until St. Louis.

Pitching to contact, defensive competence... Dave Duncan, whose out-of-office message on Outlook said he was "[...] questing for the palace of this 'Silver King'", could not be reached for comment.

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For instance, running surpasses talking

by ajabegg on Nov 30, 2009 1:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The once and future Silver King?

Would he have won a Gold Glove?

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Nov 30, 2009 1:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

2 comments?

2?!

okay, well, larue will re-sign

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/cardinals-to-resign-jason-larue.html

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Nov 30, 2009 4:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

This makes me irrationably happy

One more year of the pornstache. One less year of “oh shit, it’s Pagnozzi’s day”. Plus I like familiarity in professional sports. Shame on me.

"on gameday it says duke loves to face the four seamer and hates to face the four seamer" -VolsnCards5

"perhaps it's a computer joke about the duality of man." -tom s.

by Tudor's Electric Fan on Nov 30, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was well up for the LaRue re-sign

until I looked at his peripherals last year. His plate discipline fell off a CLIFF. Ugh. Still, he’s gotta be better than Gagnozzi and at least he’s only costing half a mill more. I can’t see any hugely better alternatives, and I suppose his bat could bounce back a bit.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 1, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't the whole club's plate discipline (except for Pujols) fall off a cliff last year?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Dec 1, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I mean REALLY fell off a cliff

I think he walked something like 3 times in 130-odd PAs. Previously he’d always had an acceptable walkrate. Dunno if it’s just SSS but it’s kindof worrying in a mid-30s catcher. I don’t expect a lot of thunder from the pornstache bat this year.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 1, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thunder came back when we needed it...

I’m inclined to agree with you, but I’m also keeping an eye on the mitigating factors, like Yadi not giving up any playing time. Regular play is La Russa’s mantra off the bench, but LaRue didn’t get much of that unless it was Wellemeyer’s start. A guy missing that much live pitching might not get a chance to get back into the groove.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 1, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, and 130 PAs is nothing, really

he only needed to turn a couple of looking-strike-3’s into balls to push the BB% up nearer 10%, I suppose. Also seems a good defensive catcher, still, from what I can tell, so I’m broadly OK with the move. I’d rather spend an extra half mill to save us from having to sit through one Gagnozzi start every ten days…

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 2, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cards sign Ruben Gotay to a minor league deal and extend him a ST invite.

Is he 2010’s Joe Thurston?

Looks to have more upside than Thurston, younger (26), and he’s a switch hitter. He’s probably a good insurance plan and can provide competition for T. Greene and Lugo. If he does well in spring training, it could open up a possible trade of Lugo for a rh bullpen arm if needed.
May have already been discussed on the other thread, but I’ll post it on this one.

by stxcardsfan on Nov 30, 2009 6:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The guy...

walked 102 times in 479 PAs in the PCL. What the hell is that all about?

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Nov 30, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thurston's out, and they bring in... Thurston Jr.?

Don’t get this.

.255/.315/.685. 77 RBIs in a season’s worth of games in his career (162). Career high in RBIs: 29 in 86 games (2005 w/ KC)

Best moment I've ever seen at a Cards game in person
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!

by zoomzoomj88 on Nov 30, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a cheap, low-risk move.

And who the hell cares about RBI?

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Nov 30, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he's shown considerably more pop than Thurston.

hopefully he at least knows how to run the bases. He hits much better as a lh hitter (~.300 ave compared to ~.150 as a righty), so he could be a good lh option off the bench if he can play somewhat solid D. I don’t think it’s a bad move… although I didn’t think the Thurston move last offseason was that bad either. If he can step up and be decent off the bench, I’d be willing to use him and Greene on the bench and trade in Lugo for whatever pitching holes show up in ST (looks like it could be RH relief)

by stxcardsfan on Nov 30, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

dude should never bat righty

and won’t, but there’s the lefty bench bat. i guess that rules out counsell, but don’t know that gotay has any such influence on lugo/greene roles, and hope not, if what you propose is a possibility – lugo strengthens the bench, but greene should only come up in the event of a boog injury, imo.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Nov 30, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Greene can play SS

Lugo cannot, except nominally. I think there’s an argument that he should/could be a useful bench player.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 1, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think lugo can spell boog here and there

but i think greene needs to play everyday – occasional AB’s will only diminish his (in)ability to put the bat on the ball, imo.

if boog went on the DL, then i’d call greene up to start. he’s in a tough spot – the way i see it, he’s a MLB’er if he starts, but not if he doesn’t. (a slick glove can make up for some offensive shortcomings, but really has no bearing when your primary role is to pinch-hit, and if that role in and of itself degrades your ability to perform it…)

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 1, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Boog still has eight more fingers to injure.

(don’t actually do that, Brendan)

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 1, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rub some dirt on it, boog

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 1, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

happiness is:

not having to make a joke about McRae taking care of that.

by brackenthebox on Nov 30, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no, now he will just be told to hit dingers

I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.

"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG

by slu on Dec 1, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seattle!

wrong meme?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 1, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So all those dingers that Jimmy hit

was just an optical illusion. And he was really hitting righty? Well that explains alot.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 1, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You might have missed

it. If so, it’s a good read.

* is an Asshat

by RiverRat on Dec 1, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for that, I had read it before and knew what you meant.

It is a true gem.
I have a habit of the non-sequitur.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 1, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he’s shown considerably more pop than Thurston.

No he hasn’t. He’s shown considerably LESS pop than Thurston, I’m afraid to say.

Thurston’s SLG in the high minors hovered around .450. Gotay managed that mark last year in a hitter’s heaven in Reno, but has never got close to that level before. He’s also only hit double-digit HR once in a professional season. He may (judging by the last two years) have a bit better plate discipline than Thurston, but he doesn’t have any pop either, and probably isn’t any better in the field. If anything, I’d say Thurston’s marginally the superior player.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 1, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also

I don’t think Lugo is worth much of anything in a trade. He might bring back a middle reliever, I suppose, but you can sign a guy like Lugo for <$2m on the FA market (and there’s probably FAT/MiLFA options that are as good, if you’re a shrewd GM, who can be had for the league minimum i.e. the same salary cost), so you’re not giving up much impact talent for him.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 1, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so we find a dumb GM?

“And he’s a friend of Albert Pujols! That’s worth a PTBNL, surely.”

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 1, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't think he's worth near in a trade

what he’s worth to us off the bench. to sort of follow-up from above, conversely, i think greene is worth more in a trade than he is to us off the bench.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 1, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd still like to see what we've got with Greene

his improved contact and walk rate at AAA last year was really tantalising. Even if he doesn’t get any better, his MLE is something like a .700 OPS, which is kinda Boog territory, and he’s got a nice glove. Maybe he’s a late bloomer.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Dec 2, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it wouldn't bother me if he played every day in STL

(unless it did)

i actually think pretty highly of his talent and don’t want him relegated to a bench role. so if boog brought something useful in a trade…blasphemy.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 2, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a feeling Boog would collapse anywhere other than L.A.

maybe a few years later, not so much. but this’ll be his sophomore season, like this year was Luddy’s.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 3, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get the thurston comparison

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 1, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Middle infielder who has bounced all over the map, can't play SS,

hits lefty and has a decent eye. He’s just younger, with a bit more potential than thursty, and also “hits” righty.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Dec 1, 2009 5:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he's got a great on base percentage

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 1, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so yeah

why not?

I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Dec 1, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

do we call him RuGo?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 30, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow...

it’s in the Cardinal genes… and Charlie Comiskey? Wasn’t he the meanie owner of the Black Sox who gave those players no other option than throwing the WS?

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Nov 30, 2009 6:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

RuGo...hmmm

RuGo in chinese (pinyin “ruguo”) means “if”.

when does RB Fallstrom get inducted to the hall of fame?

by hongniao on Dec 1, 2009 3:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lugo would be RuGo

if Lugo were in a Godzilla movie.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Dec 1, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

horriday...

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Dec 1, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

is it arb day? CURLY FRIES FOR ALL!

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Dec 1, 2009 10:13 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

OT: This has to be the ulitmate example of why win-loss record is worthless
…during a period from May 6, 1992, until July 28, 1993, Anthony Young lost 27 consecutive decisions.

Young pitched for the Mets and went 0-14 as a starter and 0-13 as a reliever. About the streak, he said, “Everything that could happen, happened. It was just destiny, I guess.” Even during the streak Young didn’t pitch that bad. He had a 4.36 ERA and actually threw 23.3 straight scoreless innings and notched 12 straight save chances.

Many people tried to help Young break from his slump. He was sent good luck charms like four-leaf clovers, horseshoes and rabbit’s feet. Psychics even called the Mets to offer their expertise in attempting to break the streak. Who knows if any of that actually helped, but the streak ended in late July of 1993. After giving up the game-tying run in the top of the ninth, the Mets scored twice in the bottom to beat the Marlins, and give Young one of the most understated ‘much-needed’ wins ever.

Only way to break a losing streak is to pitch poorly…

http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/sports_streaks/anthony_young_27_straight.html?state=play

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Dec 1, 2009 11:25 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

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