Albert Pujols is the unanimous NL MVP
by DanUpBaby on Nov 24, 2009 3:02 PM EST
Email
PrintObviously the BBWAA checked SBN's crib notes; Albert Pujols wins unanimously, Hanley places second, and—well, Ryan Howard somehow continues to be grossly overrated by people who watch him and Chase Utley every day.
I don't know how to explain this phenomenon; Chase Utley is among the smoothest-looking, most complete players in baseball, able to do just about anything, from home run hitting to Inside Baseball-y grit work, better than everybody else at his position. Ryan Howard is great in "the second halves of seasons", but as simple as it seems to me maybe this is worth repeating: this means he is not great in the first halves of seasons. His team's games count the same either way. Ryan Howard was probably one of the ten best hitters in the NL this year; he's a slow first baseman. This is a difficult combination to turn into the third best player in baseball.
But that's enough about Ryan Howard, the annual MVP bogeyman, for this year—Albert Pujols should have won, and he did, and for once every BBWAA writer tasked with the supremely difficult task of figuring that out did so. Viva El Hombre!
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I have no idea how they do this every year
but some group of pitchers is always more valuable than the Cy Young winner.
maybe they were people that voted for Lincecum but decided that Carp and Waino deserved an award too
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 24, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
The sad thing is that this could be the thinking of those voters.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yeah
it probably is
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 24, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps there is a group of sportswriters
that goes against mainstream sportswriter convention for the Cy voting that also is more likely to vote a pitcher for MVP. It doesn’t need to be the same sportswriter saying ’I’ll vote for Linecum for Cy, and then vote higher for Wainwright for MVP!"
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Perhaps it is due to different voters?
they may all be BBWAA members but I think the voters are different
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
There's a reason for that
The description of the Cy Young Award doesn’t say most “valuable” it says “best”. Similarly, the Hank Aaron Award says “best”. The MVP contains the word “valuable”.
Somehow the BBWAA has decided that you can be the best at something while another player is more valuable than you are even though you happen to be better than he is at doing the exact same thing. This decision seems to have a lot to do with whether your team makes the playoffs or has a winning record. Apparently you can be the best pitcher in the league on a third place team, but you can’t be the most valuable pitcher in the league on a third place team. Hence, all the votes for Ryan Howard last season over Albert Pujols. It’s also the reason why Jimmy Rollins has a fucking MVP trophy on his mantle. I would assume that had the Giants won the West or the wildcard, Lincecum would have gotten more votes than either Wainwright or Carpenter in the MVP voting.
It’s also a giant crock of shit, but you just can’t convince some people that the value of a player is not determined by the strength of his team.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
It’s also a giant crock of shit, but you just can’t convince some people that the value of a player is not determined by the strength of his team.
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable line to take. I just think it needs to be consistent.
In most other sports, it’s pretty rare for individual player honours to go to the best player on a weak team.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 5:33 AM EST up reply actions
Not familiar with other sports awards programs
but I would say that Steven Jackson deserves at least a look for best running back in the NFL, and he is stuck on a horrid Rams team. Sometimes you have to look further than a team’s record if you want to find the best players.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
What other sports are we talking about?
In the NBA, you only play 5 players and a truly great player can turn an otherwise cruddy team into a playoff contender. Look at LeBron James career so far — he’s yet to play with another guy who merits and All-Star and has been to an NBA Finals and has been in the playoffs nearly every year of his career. Truly great players can carry their teams in the NBA, not so in baseball, there are too many other variables that account for team success.
In football there are 22 positions on the field. The MVP generally goes to only 2 of those positions historically, QB and RB. Jerry Rice is the most accomplished football player ever in terms of scoring, yards, and catches — he never won an MVP award. Only 2 defensive players have ever won it, Lawrence Taylor and Allan Page. One kicker has won it, Mark Moseley in the strike shortened ‘82 season. I don’t really think that the awards process can be done fairly in the NFL — it’s too hard to sort out the individual accomplishments of players in non-statistically calibrated positions like offensive line, safety, and defensive tackle.
In baseball, we can separate an individual players greatness from those around him on his team. It’s pretty hard to do that in any other sport because most other sports involve some sort of team interaction with that player, making it more difficult to separate how good the player is from how good his team is. There are also fewer playoff teams in the MLB that in any other organized sport. It’s pretty hard to make the playoffs in baseball with a .500 record or worse, yet nearly every year an NBA, NFL, or NHL team does this.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
all of those sports
also cricket, soccer, rugby, field hockey, ice hockey etc etc.
I don’t know anything about handegg but I assume the voters often give MVP awards to RBs who (for instance) set huge yardage totals/TD totals in a season, but isn’t the ability of the RB to create yardage directly related to how good his offensive blockers are? As Hugo said above, the Rams have a pretty good RB who will probably never come close to an MVP award with the team. For an educated observer (e.g. a handegg writer), it must be possible to separate Jackson’s abilities and performance as a running back from the crappy players around him, perhaps even statistically (I dunno what sort of metrics exist in HE), even if his raw yardage sucks. But they don’t do that because he plays for a crappy team and some RB or QB for a team with a huge winning % will win the MVP.
I realise baseball is “different” in that it’s a virtually individual sport masquerading as a team one, but I still think there’s a fair case to be made that (for instance) Evan Longoria’s “value” to the Rays was diddly-squat this year because they didn’t win anything or make the playoffs. It’s not MY case, but, playing devil’s advocate, I don’t see any great logical disconnect there. It’s just another way of looking at it, or, if you like, a small additional piece of info to break ties in very close debates (say, 80% an individual player’s production, 20% his “value”, in terms of the addition he made to the team’s tangible success, to the team’s final result).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
cricket world cups (cricket is similar to baseball in being an individual sport masquerading as a team one)- quick example:
1996 – Sri Lanka shocked the world by winning the tournament. Sanath jayasuriya was named MVP after scoring 221 runs and taking 7 wickets. He wasn’t in the top 5 run scorers or the top 10 wicket-takers and won largely because he was the “face” of the winning team and helped “set their tempo” with aggressive opening batting (i.e. intangibles-type crap).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
My problem with intangibles
is that they rarely, if ever, stand up to the face of empirical evidence — usually because it’s nearly impossible to delimit or measure them in a controllable fashion. For instance, I don’t think that the Yankees wouldn’t have won the World Series without Derek Jeter, and he is the gold standard for “intangibles”, in fact, he’s been paid handsomely essentially for HAVING intangibles, even though he is an above average baseball player as well. It seems like what you are saying in your cricket example is that someone like Derek Jeter (who sets a tone for his team even though he isn’t necessarily the best player on his team) should have won the MVP simply because his intangibles were more important to his team than, say, Joe Mauer’s nearly 8.5 WAR of value to the Twins, who were also a playoff team.
I know cricket fairly well, I actually played it when I was dating an Indian girl in college because all of her friends (who were immigrants from India who went to school here), but I am not up on all the intricacies of the game to be able to comment informatively on that post.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
No, I'm not saying Jayasuriya SHOULD win the MVP for that tournament because of his intangibles
or ability to “set the tone” or whatever, but that he DID. But more than that – he won it because he was a prominent (and, indeed, important) member of a winning team. The guy who scored the most runs in the tournament (in fewer games!) played on a weaker team that got knocked out earlier.
It was an example of an individual award in a sport similar to baseball being given partly due to performance in a successful team, rather than merely good individual performance in a losing team. I don’t particularly mind that approach if that’s how people are defining “value”. I just think we need to agree that’s the criteria, or have some sort of consistency.
Maybe it wasn’t the best analogy.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
I guess I just really have a problem with stating
that “value” should in any way be derived by how the overall team performs.
Let’s take the instance of the mythical pitcher. With Sandy Gibson Ryan here, you will win exactly 75 games with a theoretical team of replacement level players making up the other 24 spots on the roster. Now, you won’t win your division with 75 wins, but it’s clear that his guy, who will get you a win every time he pitches of you can just score one run, is the most “valuable” player in the history of baseball. Yet he still can’t push his team into the playoffs all by himself.
Obviously this is an extreme example, but I think it illustrates what I mean when I say that team performance (specifically team W/L record and playoff contention) shouldn’t be given much consideration when determining how valuable a player is.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think I broadly agree
but I can also accept the opposing argument.
I think my general view is that performance in a successful (or borderline) team is slightly more valuable but should only be used in extremely close ties (e.g. if Lincecum hadn’t played at all this year, and Carp pitched for the Giants instead, I’d maybe argue that Waino’s performance was critical for us to win the division, but Carp didn’t help the Giants to anything, therefore with two otherwise very similar seasons I’d give it to Waino).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Why does it need to be "consistent"?
Embrace the relativism.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
is that legal?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Someone gave Carp an MPV vote for fixing Waino's delivery
MVP is not defined at all and some people take off the field work into consideration too. If they really want to fix the awards they need to better define what MVP is truely for.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
I think it's arguably reasonable
as long as you take the rationale that the Cy Young = “best pitcher in the league” and MVP = “most valuable player in the league”. Depending on your definition of value, a pitcher who produced ace-like performance down the stretch for a playoff team (Waino) could be more valuable than a guy who produced better overall performance for a team that didn’t win anything (Tiny Tim).
Like I say, it’s a logical stretch, but so long as the criteria for the BBWAA awards remain so nebulous, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for voters to take this tack.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 5:27 AM EST up reply actions
Congrats, APu!!
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 24, 2009 3:16 PM EST reply actions
other thread, for linking purposes
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2009/11/24/1170033/the-greatest-cardinals-of-each#26106866
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
The Mang, the myth, the legend, the machine
Joins the Man with 3 MVPS!!!
Boy a frosty cold Budweiser would be great about now"…long pause…then an "aahhh". --Mike Shannon
That Musial Bowman card is a beauty to behold.
I wish that I owned it.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Andre Ethier
Got more 2nd place votes than Chase Utley.
What the heck does he need to do to get recognized? I bet even next year, after he hit a HR in like, every plate appearance he had in the World Series, people will still vote for Ryan Howard over him. Heck, maybe Jayson Werth passes him up, too.
Utley had his coming out last month...
He’ll be a top three in the balloting next year if he puts up one of his usual seasons.
MB for LF in 2010!
For quite a while I used to say "Utley is the only player I'd swap Pujols for, straight up"
mostly hyperbole, I think, but yeah, he’s pretty damn good, and playing at a position (at least until the last 2 years or so) that was particularly weak across the league.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 5:35 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm intersting idea
I know most of us wouldn’t trade AP straight up for anyone anymore so what would it take?
How about this interesting 3 way trade idea (that I don’t support at all since I want AP to retire as a Card but just wanted to throw it out there):
Cards: Utley, R Zimmerman
Phillies: Pujols
Nationals: Howard, some other filler to make up the Howard/Zimm difference
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
I'd probably trade him for Longoria
his contract is ridiculous. He’s approaching Pujols’ level of awesomeness but will make about half as much money over the next 5-6 years (depending on how much Pujols gets for an extension, of course), and will be hitting his prime when Albert is beginning to decline.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 8:04 AM EST up reply actions
actually its .883
and I see what Felonius is saying, especially with contractual and defensive considerations (though I still wouldn’t do it), but saying Longoria is “approaching Pujols’ awesomeness” is flat out mischaracterization. Pujols has been putting up .400+ wOBAs since his first season, 9 years now, with an upward trend that now has him as a perennial .450-.460 man. Longoria hasn’t come close to putting up even a .400 wOBA yet,and he still isn’t projected to next season.
/knee-jerk reactionary defense of everything that is The Mang
Longoria ia an absolutely amazing fielder
he’s a shortstop playing 3rd base. He’s Scott Rolen good.
Albert is good, but he’s a 1B, and he isn’t nearly as good as Longoria.
Whether you subscribe to UZR or not, his numbers are amazingly good and consistent: 20 runs above average for BOTH of his two seasons so far. Mang is nowhere near that good even as a 1B, and 3B is a much harder position to play.
Also, Longoria has played 1.7 seasons or so, and is getting better. I wouldn’t be surprised if he breaks .900 OPS next year and sniffs a .400 wOBA sometime soon, although I don’t think he’ll consistently break it (unlike #5). Add in his defence, and he most assuredly IS approaching Pujols in value.
Add in the fact that he’s under contract for something like the next 8 years (and he’ll only be 32, still pretty much in his prime, at the end of that) at an average yearly value (I think) of about $10m or something stupid (which is half of what Pujols will cost in his (eventual) decline years), and you’ve got to say he’s the most valuable commodity in the game, bar none.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Also
Pujols was an 8 WAR player this year. Longoria was a 7.2 WAR player. I’d say he’s getting close.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
With Longoria's contract
we could afford to sign Holliday to a big ticket deal AND go out and make a trade for someone like Adrian Gonzalez to fill the gap at 1B. Offensively, it’s much easier to find good bats at 1B than at any other position.
If you could trade Pujols for Longoria, sign Holliday, and trade three minor leaguers for Gonzalez, who you would then sign to a long term deal, would you do it? I would sure have to think about it. You’d be essentially replacing one .450 wOBA with three .400 wOBA’s for about the same amount of money.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Yes I would do it
I absolutely love Gonzalez. Holliday and Longoria are two of my favourite non-Cardinals as well. It’d suck to lose Pujols but in one move we’d become the best team in the NL by a country mile.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
I highly doubt it
and we can’t trade Miller until at least next June anyway.
The Rays would never, ever trade Longoria, so this was purely hypothetical, like you said.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Pujols plus Rasmus might get Longoria
even then I think it’s a hard sell…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
He was talking about Gonzalez
but I get your point.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
That's right I'm going to be that guy and quote myself from two months ago but whatever
I still picture Rays management all in a room getting ready to make the call to Cohen holding back their laughter:
PC: "*ring…ring…This is Paul Cohen"
AF: "Hey Paul this is Andrew…shut up guys cough…so, we’re prepared to offer a generous 6 year/17.5M guaranteed deal."
PC: "Okay that sounds good"
AF: "Wait what? I mean okay okay…[muffled laughter] SHUT UP[/muffled laughter]…but that comes with the condition that we get a 7.5M option in year 7."
PC: "That works for Evan"
AF: "No way."
PC: "Yep"
AF: "Uhhhh, in that case, we’re also gonna need two more option years in 8 and 9 for 11.5M [crosses fingers]
PC: "Done deal."
Click
Queue riotous laughter.
Not afraid to nitpick
keep doing that, I'm collecting
and there’s no way to search for dialogue on sbn
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Dan youre right about Utley
He has so much grit its coming out of his hair
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
by njnick on Nov 24, 2009 3:46 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
his grit is special b/c in philly grits are served with scrapple!
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 25, 2009 1:22 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Voting atrocities:
1. Utley, obviously
2. Six 2nd place votes for a platoon player
3. Tejada?
4. Victorino on multiple ballots
BBWWA hero: Whoever submitted a Howard-less ballot.
MB for LF in 2010!
Andrew Baggarly of the San Jose Mercury News
But hey, this is my "prerogative" vote. If it were a three- or even five-slot ballot, I wouldn’t dream of making a "statement" with my final selection. But this is a ballot that goes 10-deep, we all knew Pujols would win in a landslide, and there’s really no impact anyone can make with their final selection. So I think it’s completely harmless to give a tip of the cap to the relief pitcher who had the lowest ERA in the league while appearing almost exclusively in highly leveraged situations.
Full explanation:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2009/11/24/breaking-down-my-nl-mvp-ballot/
Needless to say, this clown should have his house TP’d tonight.
MB for LF in 2010!
Awesome, awesome stat in the comments
“In the past 3 years, in which [Ryan Howard] has outstanding power numbers, he has struck out 584 times. In his 9 year career so far, Albert Pujols has struck out 570 times.”
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
by Solanus on Nov 24, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
i think the word is ridiculous
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
everybody's heard
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, I think a ten slot ballot is absurd, too
And making a statement like that with our #10 vote is fine by me.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
3 is enough
5 at the absolute most.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
6 is right out?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
that's what I'm sayin'
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
to ryan howard thou shalt not count.
To chase utley shalt thou not count, save that thou then counteth to hanley ramirez.
Andre ethier is RIGHT OUT!!
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 25, 2009 1:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
When there's a clear choice...
the 10 deep ballot is pointless, but there’s not always a clear choice.
MB for LF in 2010!
Even then
five slots is more than adequate—enough room to get one of the top three candidates in one of the top five slots and sort them out.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
The union would throw a fit.
With players getting bonus money for finishing in 10th spot.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 24, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
Stargell got sixth place votes when he tied Hernandez. A ballot with five spots would be ok… just saying spots 6-10 have come into play in a meaningful way. I believe this also happened in ’96 when Gonzo robbed ARod.
On the other hand it does become difficult to seperate the 8th best from the 9th best, which leads to “statement voting.”
MB for LF in 2010!
This is a beaut
Without glancing at Win Shares, I’d have to believe there are many pitchers who rank way above Affeldt
Still using win shares is even more perverse than using W/L and BA and shit like that. This guy is basically saying “I buy into the new-fangled stats but I’m going to use a really obsolete and inaccurate one”. Wierd.
I like the love for Adrian Gonzalez, who I think is an absolute beast and the second best 1B in baseball (I expect most “professional” writers wouldn’t have him in the top 5, such is their love for limited TTO sluggers who smash 50HR a year in bandboxes), other than that, that’s a pretty terrible ballot, tbh.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 5:39 AM EST up reply actions
The Victorino votes are ridiculous.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Escobar being 5th on a ballot is nuts
and even as big of a Yadi fan as I am don’t think he was the 8th bes player last year.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
To say nothing of Holliday receiving votes for the NL award,
let alone a fourth place vote.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
again…this is the “best” vs “valuable” argument….i can see a voter arguing for Molina because he handled one of the best pitching staffs
by guillermozeliak on Nov 24, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Esobar is worse than Yadi, I think
at least with Yadi, if you’re one of the people who believe that catcher defense is hugely important and over-rated, you can argue that he’s in the top 10 somewhere if you rate him the #1 defensive catcher. Not including his game-calling, first-base pickoffs (which alone are worth something like 0.3 of a win per year), ability to crush the running game, and good blocking and receiving skills (none of which are measured by FanGraphs WAR), he was still worth 4 wins last year.
If you reckon he’s, say, 20 runs better than an average catcher based on his stellar D (which I don’t, but which I could readily believe), he put up a 6-win season last year, which (without looking) is on the Prince Fielder/Adrian Gonzalez/Troy Tulowitski level, I think, just a shade below Pujols, Utley, HanRam and Lincecum.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 5:45 AM EST up reply actions
we got 5
got the most players of all of course including number 1. but yeah, Carp and Waino didn’t get screwed out of the Cy, not at aaaaall mmmhm, they only have more than triple and double pothead’s votes..
I don't think this is a very profitable line of reasoning.
1. The BBWAA made the wrong decision by choosing Lincecum instead of Wainwright and Carpenter.
2. You can tell, because the BBWAA made the right decision in the MVP vote.
Shit by WAR Waino and Carp weren't even top 3
I don’t understand why so many people are giving Law crap about his vote. While I would like to have a Cy Young winner on our team and hear about it all next season I don’t have any problem with Linceucm, Vazquez or Haren being in anyone’s top 3 and if that was someones entire ballot I wouldn’t have minded.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
I agree.
All five of Lincecum, Carp, Wainwright, Vazquez, and Haren had outstanding seasons. They were very close. If it were me, I would have voted (1) Lincecum, (2) Wainwright, (3) Carpenter, but that’s following my own personal biases. I can see the arguments for voting for Haren or Vazquez over one of my three votes and I don’t think it’s crazy. I mean, it’s not like people are giving Ryan Howard the ’06 MVP over Pujols or anything.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Josh Johnson had a great year too
forgotten in a deserted stadium in Florida.
I think it would’ve been nice if he’d got at least one vote somewhere.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 5:47 AM EST up reply actions
if a player has a great year and no one sees it
does it make a sound?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
because Keith Law is a douche
when it comes to anything STL. And because of how he handled the situation after the vote was revealed.
I wonder how it would have gone if only Carp or only Waino were in the running…
btw DanUpBaby, am I unable to express irony right?
I didn't get the satire in your post
sorry if I missed it but I think DanUp and I both read it as your actual opinion.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
that's what i get
for being a foreigner… can’t convey feelings and opinions without making the right face (see guy above)
You do Realize....
…That this animated is taken from Reptilcus, an evil sock puppet of a monster who rampages in Copenhagen and was billed as the ‘Danish Godzilla’, and flopped miserably. Oh yeah, the MooCow is king of all Stinky Moovies!
:=8D
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
i was wondering
why Keith Law got more heat than Will Carroll…..i thought Carroll’s choice was worse….but i guess people in STL hate Law more?
by guillermozeliak on Nov 24, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah his video was so arrogant esque
I watched at and vomited.
And I thought he wasn’t that bad…Jesus Christ
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
Lincecum was the best pitcher
maybe if Carp hadn’t had that strained oblique he would have won
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 24, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
If He was the Best...
….it really wasn’t by that much, IMO. I think some writers cudn’t justify to themselves, somecow, to vote for Cards pitcher AND Pujols, IMO.
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
I still think it was so close they could have awarded the cy young to all three pitchers
I wonder if there was something to the argument though, that Waino’s and Carp’s votes canceled each other out a bit.
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 24, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
this is what i've been wondering
because mathematically it seems to make no sense (that they could cancel), but psychologically, for the individual voter, if he was conflicted as to which of waino and carp was even the best pitcher on his own team, then he’d likely just go with lincecum first.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Everyone voted Albert Pujols #1
I could give a shit who they voted second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth.
Only one guy gets a trophy. The other guys don’t even get a participation medal. They got it right.
/soapbox
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I really don't care
Had Affeldt received a first place vote, I’d be pissed off. He didn’t, he received a 10th place vote. Are we really going to sound the fucking alarm over a 10th place vote? I think some of these guys do this just because they know it will rile up the saber communities and get their explanations more page views and their websites more hits. I know I sure would if I was in the newspaper business right now.
This is akin to the guy who finished 8th in the Olympic 100 meter dash getting busted for PED use. He finished EIGHTH!!!! WHO CARES!!!
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
This is akin to the guy who finished 8th in the Olympic 100 meter dash getting busted for PED use. He finished EIGHTH!!!! WHO CARES!!!
That’s a lot more serious – some guy got cheated out of an appearance in the olympic final, and some guy from his country got cheated out of GOING TO THE OLYMPICS, because of his actions. I think it’s very important, actually.
Of course, all top sprinters are on PEDs anyway, so meh…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
My point is
you don’t see sportswriters chastising Randy Velarde for taking steroids or Chad Curtis for taking greenies. Why? Because they’re just regular everyday players that nobody gives a shit about. They chase the superstars like McGwire because everyone knows who they are and those columns sell papers. Does this help their cause? No, it doesn’t. Why? Because anyone that cheated should be treated with an equal amount of vitriol, not just the guys that everyone recognizes.
Similarly, if you’re going to get picky about who some guy voted 10th, after everyone voted the best player in the league #1 on their MVP ballot, it seems to me that leaves you open to the criticism of:
“See, we can’t make those stat geek fuckers happy no matter what we do!!! We voted their golden boy first ON EVERY BALLOT and now they’re picking over the guys we stuck clear at the bottom! We can’t win, so we should just do it our own way and screw them!”
I just don’t care that much about it and it seems ridiculous to me that anyone would give two shits about some guy writing in Jeremy Affeldt with a 10th place vote. One person here at VEB stated that they’ve only “voted in local elections a couple of times, and if he didn’t recognize anyone, he just wrote in his dad” Now, how is that any different, with the notable exception that nobody can scrutinize his vote because it isn’t made public?
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
yah I see what you're saying
think I agree.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
possibly because that guy in the local election is not 10% of the vote.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
But,
with a 10-slot ballot with points given for each place, one voter’s 10th place vote isn’t 10 percent is it?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
this is math! you tricked me.
it’s probably still weighted more than 1 out of 138,643.
and if there’s a rider in someone’s contract that dumps a few hundred thousand dollars in an account because of one vote, that’s another weight altogether.
either way, that’s a flawed metaphor. a BBWA vote is more like a board of aldermen vote. they’re not supposed to not-know who’s on the ballot; we’re not about to reward them for voter ignorance. (unless we are, in which case all this “journalism” is our fault too.) it’s not a strictly all-or-nothing deal, either, otherwise we wouldn’t care if Albert’s vote were unanimous, or that Chase Utley didn’t get as many votes. that in itself is a weight, and when you’re talking about an historical accolade — as circular as that seems — the small details of that history mean something. (And, oddly, yes, someone will look it up and be talking about it years from now. Baseball fans, what can you do.)
again, no, it doesn’t mean as much, but it doesn’t mean nothing either.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Do you honestly believe
that a lone 10th place vote in the MVP voting for 2009 might someday be the difference between Jeremy Affeldt making the HOF? Or getting a speaking engagement at a country club? Or getting a gig as a spokesman?
It’s like winning a Dundie — only Michael Scott really gives a shit.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Only one problem
he doesn’t KNOW he’s not 10% of the vote. He has no idea how many ballots will be cast — what if he happens to cast his ballot and all of his college classmates do the same, as a joke, and that gets his dad elected as County Sheriff? It’s not so funny and he has no control over the outcome of his social experiment.
In this particular case, the writer knew that by voting Pujols first that he was helping to ensure that the best player got the award — so he wants to throw Affeldt a bone by putting him 10th — who cares? He’s not affecting the outcome because he knows how many votes will be cast and it’s clearly unlikely that anyone would vote Affeldt first.
Now, if we’re talking about the HOF vote, that’s different, because induction is based on a percentage of the votes cast on each ballot and they aren’t ranked. If you’re playing these games with those votes you are doing a disservice to the players, especially considering that you have to get a certain percentage of the vote to even stay on the ballot. In the MVP case, that 10th place vote simply didn’t matter because, as I said in my original comment, there is only one winner and there are no prizes for second place on down.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'm saying there's more to the value than the outcome
see above.
county sheriff or yes/no on a proposition ONLY cares about the outcome.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
But the outcome here is the same
There is only one winner — everything else is just an aside.
Do you pore over baseball reference and look at who finished runner up for MVP or 7th for MVP the most times? No, you look at who won the most times or who won and finished runner up the most times.
The voting process is actually set up to encourage some of this stuff anyway. By having 10 votes total, and 2 voters from each market, you are encouraging these writers to pencil in a hometown guy who doesn’t get many headlines just to get him some national credit.
If they truly wanted to vote for MVP, it would be a strict election vote in which each writer got one vote and had to select one guy. Does Pujols win unanimously in that case? Probably not, as I’m sure that a voter in Philly would vote for Howard or Utley and a voter in Florida would vote for Hanley Ramirez.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
actually, someone does
I just read something talking about trivial events from about 80 years ago. When reading and talking about baseball, I never assume that someone will look at it and find it insignificant. Particularly when these players have yet to finish their careers.
And I merely disagree with “everything else” being an “aside”. I disagree with there being one set of criteria for the number one vote as the number 10 vote. As I said, if it were an aside, why would we care if Albert had all the votes or not? The context of the Cy Young was not something we could have predicted, and yet the way, way way down the line votes are cited when we talk about the Cy Young vote; when we talk about how many Cardinals were included in the voting; when we talk about comparing our players to other players. Those were all one vote, too, and they weren’t even close to top ten votes.
I find it odd that the minutiae of baseball is suddenly not important, when this is the one sport where everyone loves to talk minutia. Trying to stop context and history from mattering is like trying to sit on a meme. Let us bitch about it. You can’t tell us what to do. ;) If you think it’s being overblown, you’re probably listening to the media too much, and we know what happens then.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
One guy who *did* pore over
MVP votes was Bill James. Back in the original Historical BA (86?) he totted up all the MVP votes in history …
Top all-time votes? Stan Musial
ceterum censeo, delendo est Joe Strauss
indeed
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 24, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
All of the sports writers agree that Utley is better than Howard
Yet they all vote Howard higher. Gah
they got a visit from Kanye.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
ALL TIME!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 5:49 AM EST up reply actions
A couple of congratulatory blog posts about the Mang and his new trophy
Walkoff Walk – “Let Us Never Take Our Most Valuable Pujols For Granted”
Yahoo baseball blog – “How a Chicago guy learned to love Albert Pujols of St. Louis”
by BTown Birds fan on Nov 24, 2009 5:24 PM EST reply actions
How sad is it that the comments on the Yahoo story
All mention Pujols being on PEDs. If baseball had gotten off their butts and done something about it a while ago we wouldn’t have to hear this stuff…
If we ever find out Albert is on the juice I may give up on baseball altogether
by creativereason on Nov 24, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
of course he's not
you don’t really think that the guy is so stupid, do you? being the best player in the game means you’re constantly under the microscope. he can’t afford a slip-up. albert’s not on anything, he’s just that good
He obviously isn't at this point
But it’s not exactly irrational to say a 13th rounder might have had some extra motivation to do all he could back in the day.
Not afraid to nitpick
Huh?
Bonds was the best player in the game. ARod was the best player in the game. Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, etc. etc. all were among the best players in the game.
(If your comment was sarcastic, please ignore my reply)
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
A serious question
I’m not trying to stir up anything, just curious if there is a legit explination I haven’t thought of.
I often hear statements like the one in this post about how performance in September or late in the season doesn’t matter any more than the first half or performance in April because all the games count the same. I understand this argument, and it is reasonable – although I don’t fully agree with it.
However, I often hear the same people with that view talk about “high leverage” situations in the late innings and how important/crucial they are. While high leverage certainly also deals with runners on, etc., they are almost always talking about late innings.
It’s as if outs, scoring situations late in close games are more high leverage and more important than outs early in the same game, even though they all count the same. But a win in April is just as important as a win on the last day of the regular season that clinches a playoff birth.
I’m somewhere in the middle this issue, but I’ve always thought late in games/season was more important (all though not the end all be all) because you are running out of time. If you have a ten game losing streak to end April, you still have time to catch up. If you have a ten game losing streak to end September, you’re going to miss the playoffs. Same goes for high leverage situations late in games.
I’m wondering if someone can’t better explain to me this apparent conflict I percieve. Am I misunderstanding or missing something?
BTW, it is ridiculous that Utley gets no respect from voters, particularly that Ryan Howard gets so much more.
the ten game losing streak in April is just as important as any other losing streak
you can’t just plan on making up those games
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 24, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
but you can't make up for the losing streak of April in April
you have to make up for it after April.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
well
we had a really really bad end to the season and a good April but made the playoffs…
I cannot repeal the words of the golden eel
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Nov 24, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
In 2006 I believe we had an 8-game losing streak in September
and a couple of 7-game losing streaks in August/July and still limped in.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 5:55 AM EST up reply actions
this is an interesting point, though
how about this —
losses mean the same in April as in September.
but wins are weighted more in September as in April
it’s kind of like that truism in business. if you gain half of your worth, you’re only gaining 50%. if you lose half of your worth, you have to gain 100% to break even — so it’s harder to make up that ground.
in September, you’re more likely to be making up that ground. in April, you’re less likely to be making up that ground… and if you are, your season’s probably lost already.
of course my math could be wrong, but someone told me that was why it was harder to get out of debt than save money for later. hopefully someone can clarify that.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
now, even if that makes sense
it’s totally subjective if a win that “means more” will result in more pressure for the pitcher. A guy like Carp will go out there to fuck you up every time. Adam loves to go out in a jam because he calls on his 06 reliever role.
the real question is whether voters (or we) use that as a value measure. is that a part of a pitcher’s value? is that part of his job? do we weight it more just because the schedule weights it more? how do we measure pitchers who pitch differently, with different players behind them?
i agree with Felonius, the media overblows it. later games have value but it doesn’t have that much value.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Someone at THT did an article on game leverage with more weight to the end of the season.
I’m emphatically against the way leveraging is implemented on Fangraphs (via Tango’s leverage index) so the game leveraging idea is just as absurd writ large.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
What bothers me about the argument is this:
You’re saying that a guy who had an excellent September (when games allegedly count more) should be rewarded for playing better when it “matters most”.
If a player is intentionally playing ‘harder’ or ‘better’ during September because his team is within reach of the playoffs, shouldn’t he be penalized for putting forth less than his best effort in previous months? Shouldn’t he be penalized for not playing his best all year long, instead of just at the end of the season?
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
Here is my problem with this
1) Players don’t have control over the leverage that they are placed in
2) All future leverage is depending on past performance. So if someone performs well in high leverage that makes the guys who performed will in low leverage just as valuable, as those guys’ performance allowed the high leverage to occure.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
I'm going to guess that the guys who claim this to be true
aren’t going to like the results that it turns out when done in a consistent statistical basis.
Click the THT link the VEP posted, which puts a “drama index” in place for high leverage situations. I don’t think anyone would have voted for those particular players leading the way in the 2008 MVP voting
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
thank you God for Albert Pujlos & the fact that he plays on the St. Louis Cardinals
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 24, 2009 6:01 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1
floppigityzillion
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all.
-- Earl Weaver
by Smokin Turkeys on Nov 24, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
From an article on MSN
or Foxsports…..The author quotes my second favorite Asshat…Ken Rosenthal
Pujols is under contract through 2011, with the likelihood of Alex Rodriguez-type riches thereafter. The Cardinals would like to extend their superstar’s contract right now, but a source familiar with Pujols’ plans told FOXSports.com senior baseball writer Ken Rosenthal in October that the chances of a deal in the near term are “slim and none.”
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
i think the key is "the near term"
Albert wants to kick back. enjoy the gang.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
did you all happen to watch his press conference today?
he was asked i think 2 or 3 times about leaving, and every time he said he never wants to leave, he’s not worried about signing a new deal now, he wants MO to make the team better & bring back DeRo, Lego & Smoltzy, he’d much rather worry about his deal in two years, & he doesn’t play for money & that won’t be his motivation for signing a new deal
it’s nothing we haven’t heard before, but i trust that a lot more than anything Ken Rosnethal says
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
how many times do we have to hear Albert actually say
“I want to finish my career as a Cardinal” before everyone actually believes it?
He’s said it at least twice this offseason that I can recall in addition to all of the stuff gdm just brought up. He wants them to spend the money on adding / retaining talent and worry about his deal when it’s up.
by creativereason on Nov 24, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
they cannot understang what he's saying
ony we understang you, mang!!! don’ listeng to those unicorng kickers!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I never believe what players say.
When we want to believe them (like Pujols wanting to stay) we do. But when they spout the “I’ll do whatever the team needs to win” we laugh at their cliche. Nothing they say is more then 50% accurate.
I remember the Yankee players almost talking mutiny when Torre was forced out. But Mo still resigned. Money is #1 and money with outside chance of winning is #2. No one signs with KC or Pittsburgh for the clubhouse atmosphere or the city nightlife.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 24, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
You didn't say anything about there being bacon.
I retract my previous post.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 24, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
The problem
are his peers. A-Rod “never wanted to leave” Seattle. Manny “never wanted to leave” Cleveland. Then they do just that once someone throws money at them.
In particular, this is what I like about the way the Holliday handled his impending free agency. He said how much he enjoyed playing in St. Louis and how he thought it would be a good fit for him, without ever saying that he “never wanted to play anywhere else”, and all the while making the right moves to put him in a good situation once he became a free agent (not putting down roots anywhere, hiring Scott Boras, etc.).
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I believe him....
…right up to the point where he changes his mind.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Nov 25, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
MLB TV is stupid and I hate them
How come every single person on this board knows about baseball then those “experts”?
"He (Pujols) doesn't want to walk"
“He’s either swinging at balls or he gets intentionally walked”
Pujols: 71 unintentional walks, and a 22.9% O-Swing (league average is 25%).
Mitch Williams is a liar.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
He really doesn't know any better.
It is Mitch Williams after all.
This qualifies as an expert.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
I was going to throw that in there,
but I thought two consecutive Asshat posts may be overkill.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
Can you just make it your sig?
Just do a * is an asshat.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
[waits for the photoshops]
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
That hair just screams asshat :)
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
I once had a dream
that the birth of MLBN would provide a chance for programming that catered, at the least indirectly, to sabermetric minded fans.
That dream died in the first month, when I SWEAR I heard Jon Heyman say he thought Don Mattingly should be in the HOF because it is called the Hall of FAME and Mattingly has a lot of FAME.
Listening to Heyman and Verducci discuss who deserved to be in the Hall and who did not, did more to kill my hopes than anything I’ve seen on there at any point in time.
Also, apparently, Sosa should eventually be in the Hall since there’s no real evidence he used steroids, but McGwire should not because he is guilty. I think Heyman said that one too, but I’m not 100% sure. [Granted, the Sosa positive testing hadn’t leaked yet, but still.]
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Wild Thing
made a very good point about Mark McGwire on the Dan Patrick radio show about a month ago when he was announced as the hitting coach. I’m paraphrasing here:
“Just leave the f***ing guy alone. Why is it so important to you people to bring him down?”
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Probably meant second consecutive
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all.
-- Earl Weaver
by Smokin Turkeys on Nov 24, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think someone forgot "consecutive"...?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
wow, extra badly nexdef'd
and SBN’d. thanks SBN.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
Just wanna ask
Does anyone know the story behind Pujols getting drafted? I’ve never heard it :P
You would think that the other 29 teams weren’t oblivious to his potential in the 13th round
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
Draft is full of potential talent.
It’s a crap shoot in my opinion. Take your best educated guess and hope for the best.
Then there are the Mike Piazza’s of the world.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 24, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
The explanation
was that he was a good hitter without a position (similar to Wallace without the big program pedigree).
There was also concern about his weight and apparently he didn’t try out very well.
by creativereason on Nov 24, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
rays invited him to a try out, he did poorly and that rays employee is no longer a rays employee
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
that employee
was the scout that brought him in, IIRC, and he is no longer an employee because he quit as a result – didn’t he say pulols smoked balls all over the field but the brass wasn’t impressed because apu didn’t put them in the stands? the scout (again, IIRC from that linked fanshot piece), the scout said apu could’ve hit homers if he’d wanted, but chose to hit liners instead.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
one of the fanshots also linked to a blog
which in turn linked to an article saying midwest scouts are crap.
it was a hard read, though. the blog didn’t believe in blockquotes
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
The Cardinals were oblivious to his talent if they took 12 guys in front of him
Not afraid to nitpick
In addition to the other reasons
he also played for a school in a pretty weak league, IIRC – he put up monster numbers, but against substandard opposition. Quite a lot of guys do that and it’s hard to separate the wheat from the chaff, I guess.
The fact that most scouts suck is probably the big reason, though.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 6:00 AM EST up reply actions
So I screwed with SBN pretty hard at work today...
I came home for lunch and checked the VEB, and forgot to close the window…..auto refresh at work was all screwed up.
* is an Asshat.
so if Albert plays for 15 more years
AJ could easily have been loaded in the van drafted and gone through the minors by then… right…?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Pre-emptively draft him when he's 13,
or tie him in to Albert’s extension somehow
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
Then we can have the Gwynns and the Griffeys rolled into one
all four of them
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
never forget raines
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
then they'd just say he's lying about his age
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
yeah. *sigh*
or suggest that he’s been juicing since he was bottle-fed
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
So Albert wants nine more......
how giddy would we be?
/I know…sorry about two bacon pegacorns. Deal with it.
* is an Asshat.
don't apologize!
there’s no apologizing for bacon!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
I am actually eating bacon and pancakes right now
chasing it with Franklins. I don’t know if I fail or win.
* is an Asshat.
I smoke these in my spare time.
/are actually my pics.
Bacon wrapped lasagna fattie.
* is an Asshat.
you'd win, but i can't stomach italian food
that 6ly looks delicious
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
it's a sad world when we have to explain bacon to near-strangers on the internet.
in my day, bacon was self-evident.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Wasn't that in the Constitution or something?
We hold these bacons to be self-evident…
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Nov 25, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
The full bottle of Wild Turkey
really helps set the scene for that picture.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I'm not sure how accurate that is anymore
I thought Dee Dee converted him… anyway, just a detail that conflicts.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
also that latest fanpost link claimed
he stayed back to work on his English.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
the WWL just gave Albert some much deserved love
and i just can’t help but wonder WTF this is only his third MVP award. 6ly, the voters should be ashamed of themselves. he’s been ridiculous
for 9 years now. WTF have they been smoking?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
but don't those same voters now vilify him for PED's?
no one on here is a bigger Bonds fan than i. but my homerism won’t let me think he was better than Albert. especially if he had an unfair advantage.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
I don't think PED would of made Bonds that less of ridiculous
His OPS+ numbers are so mind blowing.
His 2004 line was .362/.609/.812/1.422
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 25, 2009 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
From his forced retirement of 2007 backwards
He didn’t post a OPS under 1.000 till 1991
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 25, 2009 1:34 AM EST up reply actions
i really think he was the player of the 90's & not Griffey Jr
he was so unappreciated it’s not even funny
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
even if he hadn't put up those crazy steroid seasons
he’d still be one of the top 5 players of all time IMO.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 6:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That OBP
always shocks me when i see it. Really one of the most incredible baseball stats I’ve ever seen. I agree that there’s a very good chance Bonds would’ve been ridiculous enough to win most if not all of those MVPs even if he wasn’t juicing. I still, in my mind, however count Pujols as a 6-timer already. 3 + 2 in place of a non-juiced Bonds + 1 for the 2006 Ryan Howard travesty.
This is my favorite graph of all time
The graph simply cannot contain Barry Bonds!
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Matt Holliday Interview
Talks about Pujols, new baby, how there’s not much happening on the free agent front, and insight on scott boras
"There's a lot of things we say that don't make sense to our viewers. Okay, primarily me." ~Al Hrabosky~
do I want insight into Scott Boras?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
colonoscopy?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 8:04 AM EST up reply actions
what's the difference
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 8:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i am very proud to announce that after months of effort,
My toddler daughter can now say “albert.” It’s more like “abbert” but it’s distinct. I’ve been trying to get her to say “al-bert pu-jols” and she hasn’t gone for it till tonight (I got a “bert” for my troubles a week or so ago).
With no sign of an imminent “pujols”, I tried a different tack by repeating slowly and clearly: “albert is the best.” She quickly put together an enthusiastic “mmmBEST!” Which she repeated often. I did get one “abbert-eh-ah-mmmBEST!” So I count that as a success, even if it was a one-off.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 25, 2009 3:21 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
you are one helluva dad
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
rid - ic - u - lus
rid – ic – u – lus….
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 6:03 AM EST up reply actions
I bought my niece
a stuffed Shi Tzu, just so I could teach her to say Shit-zu……my sister hates me.
* is an Asshat.
i'm not going to tell you what i taught my 5yr old nephew to say
but it’s hilarious. his teacher had a talk with his mom last week & i couldn’t stop laughing while she was yelling at me about it.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Goold thinks too much like us. haha.
The deal could literally become a lifetime contract with so much deferred cash that it’s paying Pujols even after his righthanded-hitting, lefthanded-throwing son A.J. has retired.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
What organization is the other Pujols in?
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
I assume we activated the van.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He was just reading VEB again
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
aj - rf of the future?
Throwing left, he won’t make it anywhere but OF or 1b.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 26, 2009 3:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
he'll be at first
with finn rolen manning third.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
ahhhh!!! DREAM TEAM
Chris Carpenter has at least one son, you know. He can help shore up the rotation.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
i'll bet lil carp
is an obedient son, but one day he’ll take it out on cubbie hitters
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I would be obedient if Carp were my dad
Would you want him pissed at you?
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
don't lie, you just want the chance to call Carp your daddy
i’m on to you andi, oh yes. i’m on to you
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
sshhh, don't tell anybody!
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
Pujols the Modest man
“Actually, I owe [Stan] a phone call,” Pujols said. “He is The Man. I hope by the time that I’m done in this game, I can put up half of the numbers that Stan Musial put in his career. Right now, I’m enjoying the ride and … I’m thankful for being in an organization that wants to put a team out there to win every year.”
Pujols vs Musial
HRs 366 vs 475 77%
H 1717 vs 3630 47%
2B 387 vs 725 53%
RBI 1112 vs 1951 57%
PA 6082 vs 12712 48%
Slash Stats: .334/.427/.628/1.055 vs .331/.417/.559/.976
If Pujols only wants to put up “half the numbers he did” then he could just stop now :)
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Stan gave him a call.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Wow
my guess is that hits is the only category that Albert doesn’t either pass, or come within an eyelash of passing, Stan before he’s through.
by ArkansasTravs on Nov 27, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Seems like Howard gets too much credit for his 2nd half
Utley is consistent over the course of the year, but Howard always has these massive 2nd halves (and especially Septembers) that seem to stick better with voters.
I don't know how I missed this from five days ago.
The P-D did a Cy Young story, but leads it with this paragraph:
Cardinals reliever Kyle McClellan called teammate Adam Wainwright on Wednesday to chat about preparing as a starter, but they couldn’t avoid talking about the game McClellan didn’t finish.
Why would K-Mac be wanting to chat about preparing as a starter? I don’t think I’ve read even speculation on such a move this offseason.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
nexdef'd
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
apparently he is planning on prepping as a starter (again, as with last year)
to improve strength, stamina, ability to go multiple IP etc. Also, I guess the idea is if we go broke on Holliday and DeRo or something he might be an option as a 5th SP (an idea I really liked this time last year, but really hate now). He’ll still likely be a RP next year.
Although if it reduces his K rate and increases his BB rate again I wonder if the whole “prepping as a SP” idea isn’t a bad one…
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
I am with you.
I was interested to see K-Mac converted heading into the 2009 season. Now, I don’t think it’s a good idea and am not really all that enthused about him in anything other than the Cal Eldred role.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Saw a headline on MSNBC
and remembered that yes, McGwire is our hitting coach for next year. So much for that press conference taking place “most like sooner than later”.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I don't know why I like Mo-doublespeak and I don't like anyone else's
cautiously, of course.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 25, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
meeting Adam
So I’m walking bleary eyed through the ATL airport last night and happen to see Adam Wainwright walking past me. I abandon my luggage and turn around and find him, tell him I’m a fan, shake his hand, and say I know he’ll get a Cy Young some time in the future. I am absolutely sure I acted like a stammering idiot, but am glad I didn’t just let the moment pass completely and then regret not meeting him. He was really polite and thanked me. That is all.
"The world is made for people who aren't cursed with self awareness." - Annie Savoy
by redbirdbluedevil on Nov 25, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions
That's just the creepiest thing I have seen this week
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
Boy, you are lucky it was Waino and not Carp
I can’t imagine the carnage that would ensue from mentioning Carp’s Cy Young loss to him in a place with so much luggage
"and I woke up on the carousel with a big tag on my head. No one had claimed me."
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
i agree with that, but he wouldn't have been waking up
they would have just found his lifeless body on the carousel
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
anyone else find it weird that the mariners can't get any takers for jose lopez
i mean i know his OBP is bad…but he’s a + defender(barely, according to fangraphs) and is a 25+ HR threat, and he’s just 26
just seems odd that they were actively shopping him and found no takers
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
I think the price was too high from what I have heard
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
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