The Greatest Cardinals of Each Time: The American Association
It is a lucky thing for Cardinals writers that Stan Musial's birthday falls in the offseason; in July it would be a blip on the radar while complaining about relief pitching remained in fashion, but in November there is simply nothing else to talk about. As The Man gets older and his first plausible heir nears 30 it makes sense to begin wondering where each will fall on the list of all-time greatest Cardinals, even if the resulting P-D article was less than satisfying in some ways.
But it's simply too soon; Albert Pujols has played nine seasons, while Musial went an astonishing sixteen before his skills finally dropped below a Hall of Fame level. Even in a comparison of their careers to this point there's a lot to confound; Musial began his career during World War II, amid a serious drop in competition, which makes it seem like he arrived at 21 fully formed instead of maturing into someone who put up the same stats against better players at 25.
It's hard to compare players across eras; it's easier in baseball, which has stayed comparatively stable since the live ball era, when the jump shot was a gleam in Hank Luisetti's eye and the forward pass was 20 years old, but even then we must deal with integration, with expansion, with timeline adjustment (I'm not for it, for what it's worth) and the changing utilization of pitchers. When Albert Pujols finally retires—at fifty, having won, as the saying goes, fifteen straight MVP awards and then six straight Albert Pujols awards—it will be time to wade into the murk that comes with adjusting for World War II and the really-live-ball era into which Bobby Bonilla allowed Albert Pujols. Until then we can only say that Albert Pujols is the best Cardinal of this era, and Stan Musial the best of his own. Until then the interesting question is this: Who's the best Cardinal of each time?
The American Association Browns: 1882-1891
If you've been in the Cardinals' team store you already know that these guys, the rough-and-tumble Browns of the American Association, created a World Series to earn some extra money, and once put himself in as manager, are not officially recognized by the St. Louis Cardinals as... Cardinals, est. 1892. But prior to joining the National League the Browns were among the best teams in base ball, winning four consecutive pennants and taking a proto-World Series championship in 1886.
Baseball in the 1880s was moving in the direction of the sport we know now. Gloves were being adopted; there were two leagues that occasionally played each other; the number of balls to a walk and where a pitcher ought to stand varied across the decade. By the end of the period the Browns were playing about 140 games a year, give or take a few. But careers were short and effective careers even shorter. Here's every hitter who accrued 1000 plate appearances for these Browns:
| Rk | Player | OPS+ | PA | To | From | G | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SB | BA | OBP | SLG |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Tip O'Neill | 158 | 3519 | 1884 | 1891 | 785 | 3183 | 697 | 1092 | 185 | 70 | 47 | 625 | 300 | 118 | .343 | .406 | .489 |
| 2 | Bob Caruthers | 156 | 1146 | 1884 | 1887 | 268 | 985 | 245 | 308 | 56 | 27 | 15 | 146 | 154 | 75 | .313 | .409 | .470 |
| 3 | Tommy McCarthy | 115 | 2471 | 1888 | 1891 | 540 | 2241 | 507 | 687 | 93 | 25 | 17 | 295 | 200 | 270 | .307 | .371 | .393 |
| 4 | Yank Robinson | 115 | 2584 | 1885 | 1891 | 603 | 2108 | 462 | 537 | 100 | 30 | 12 | 303 | 419 | 221 | .255 | .392 | .348 |
| 5 | Dave Foutz | 112 | 1248 | 1884 | 1887 | 302 | 1194 | 204 | 353 | 54 | 26 | 7 | 201 | 51 | 39 | .296 | .326 | .402 |
| 6 | Curt Welch | 106 | 1648 | 1885 | 1887 | 381 | 1539 | 296 | 426 | 81 | 28 | 8 | 272 | 77 | 148 | .277 | .325 | .381 |
| 7 | Bill Gleason | 101 | 3041 | 1882 | 1887 | 659 | 2838 | 552 | 781 | 99 | 33 | 7 | 232 | 161 | 42 | .275 | .324 | .341 |
| 8 | Arlie Latham | 95 | 3932 | 1883 | 1889 | 839 | 3652 | 829 | 975 | 134 | 48 | 11 | 245 | 239 | 367 | .267 | .319 | .339 |
| 9 | Charlie Comiskey | 92 | 4554 | 1882 | 1891 | 1036 | 4389 | 816 | 1198 | 161 | 58 | 26 | 694 | 135 | 336 | .273 | .299 | .354 |
| 10 | Hugh Nicol | 83 | 1594 | 1883 | 1886 | 383 | 1488 | 255 | 361 | 44 | 12 | 0 | 103 | 100 | 38 | .243 | .293 | .288 |
| 11 | Shorty Fuller | 72 | 1841 | 1889 | 1891 | 407 | 1629 | 316 | 390 | 42 | 22 | 3 | 154 | 192 | 140 | .239 | .327 | .298 |
| 12 | Jack Boyle | 71 | 1518 | 1887 | 1891 | 381 | 1393 | 213 | 336 | 40 | 15 | 11 | 185 | 101 | 42 | .241 | .304 | .315 |
That's it. Only Charlie Comiskey, first baseman-manager, suited up every season (except for 1890, when both the AA and the NL came under attack by the Players' League), but he can be pretty easily removed from consideration; at the time first base was considered significantly more defensively important than it is now, and he was certainly an excellent one—although probably not, as he'd later claim, the first man to play off the bag—but his .273 batting average was empty even in an age of empty batting averages, and his player-managing is a skill extremely specific to this era.
Tip O'Neill, on the other hand, was among the best hitters in the American Association's brief history, winning two consecutive batting titles for the Browns and, in 1887, having the best season of the decade. That year he actually hit .435/.490/.691, leading the league in all three slash stats, runs (167 in 124 games), hits, doubles triples, home runs, and RBI, but thanks to a brief scorekeeping experiment it originally went into the record-books even better than that. In 1887, perhaps in the throes of its first sabermetric revolution, baseball decided a walk counted, for record-keeping purposes, as a hit. This was the only season it was true, and it coincided with Tip O'Neill's career year, the end result being that, depending on whom you ask, he still holds the all-time single season batting average record at .492.
Among position players, O'Neill is basically unchallenged for Browns supremacy; Arlie Latham is another honorable mention, thanks to his baserunning, his shaky play at third base (at the time nearer shortstop, as a defensive position, than center field), and the good fortune of being nicknamed "The Freshest Man on Earth", but he doesn't have the hitting chops, either.
But in the 1880s the question of greatness is a discussion that must necessarily include pitchers. These teams used no more than three pitchers in a season, if they could help it, and they almost always finished games. Careers win totals ended up basically within historical norms, Cy Young aside, but it was because a great pitcher's career was compressed into the brief and wonderful moments before his arm became completely useless to him for the rest of his life. Hoss Radbourn, for instance, newly minted Twitter star and one of the greats of the 1880s, won 309 games and lost 195, which is remarkably close to Tom Glavine's career record of 305-203. But Glavine did it in exactly twice as many seasons as Radbourn did—22 to 11.
So in a few years a great pitcher could be extremely valuable. Here are the Browns who managed to pitch 1000 innings before it became necessary for someone else to comb their hair:
| Rk | Player | ERA+ | IP | To | From | Age | GS | CG | SHO | W | L | H | R | ER | BB | SO | ERA | HBP | WP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Bob Caruthers | 146 | 1293.1 | 1884 | 1887 | 20-23 | 142 | 141 | 10 | 106 | 38 | 1151 | 579 | 360 | 219 | 488 | 2.51 | 45 | 33 |
| 2 | Silver King | 145 | 1433.2 | 1887 | 1889 | 19-21 | 161 | 153 | 10 | 111 | 50 | 1300 | 693 | 431 | 310 | 574 | 2.71 | 17 | 29 |
| 3 | Jack Stivetts | 138 | 1051.0 | 1889 | 1891 | 21-23 | 122 | 99 | 8 | 72 | 50 | 909 | 577 | 352 | 479 | 691 | 3.01 | 14 | 74 |
| 4 | Dave Foutz | 136 | 1457.2 | 1884 | 1887 | 27-30 | 166 | 156 | 16 | 114 | 48 | 1305 | 760 | 433 | 362 | 619 | 2.67 | 47 | 48 |
| 5 | Jumbo McGinnis | 117 | 1325.0 | 1882 | 1886 | 28-32 | 153 | 145 | 18 | 88 | 61 | 1252 | 751 | 402 | 203 | 474 | 2.73 | 25 | 11 |
You'll remember "Parisian" Bob Caruthers from the first list, and that's why he's one of my favorite Cardinals of all time. If O'Neill is the easy choice, Caruthers, who would be a shoo-in if he hadn't been dispatched to Brooklyn following the 1887 season, is the Fun Choice. In MVP discussions the Fun Choice can be terrifying; it leads to people making straight-faced proclamations about Shannon Stewart being the AL MVP, or Ryan Howard being more valuable because he sucked at the beginning of the season. But here I can empathize with it.
Bob Caruthers was one of the best hitters in baseball and one of the best pitchers in baseball at the same time; in 1885 he led the AA in ERA+, and in 1886 he led it in OPS+. That 1886 season is one of the coolest of early baseball's freakshow years; he went 30-14 with a 2.32 ERA, second in the league, and also hit .334/.448/.527 in a league that hit .243/.305/.323. ERA+: 148; OPS+: 200. On days he didn't pitch he stood in right field, where his arm was presumably more than accurate.
Silver King is probably also worth a mention; owner of a famous "crossfire" pitching delivery that resembles Mark Worrell's wind-up a little more than is comfortable, King, who stepped into the void left by Caruthers as a 19 year-old, went 45-21 with a 1.64 ERA in his second of three seasons with the hometown Browns. His is maybe the prototypical 19th century pitcher's career: 142-75 as a 22 year-old, he would finish his career, after a brief and somewhat successful comeback in the late 1890s, at 203-154. Those three seasons with the Browns were great, as is his Arthurian name, but unfortunately for the guy who followed Parisian Bob he just couldn't hit.
This early in history, even our methods for determing the most valuable player aren't extremely useful. By WAR, Caruthers is the winner; he was worth 30.6 wins above a replacement pitcher alone, without even taking his hitting (+9.6) into account. But Caruthers played in an era where one good pitcher was simply more valuable than he is now, since he pitched such an extreme proportion of his team's games. O'Neill, only a position player, spread those same 30 wins out over seven years, but it was through no fault of his own.
0 recs |
298 comments
|
Comments
I like
well, I don’t Bill Frist obviously, because he’s a conniving asshole, but I like the pun.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 7:02 AM EST up reply actions
This is right
"But as the leadoff guy that inning, my job is to get on base and let guys drive me in." - Albert Pujols 8/20/09, base-clogger.
I don't think a unilateral pull-out is the best plan
you’ll only create a meme vacuum in a potentially unstable blog.
Dissident elements may move in.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
the more you try to kill memes
the more they come back
and then the meme-killing becomes a meme
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Milhouse is not a meme is a meme.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
just upping my assist total.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
is VEB keeping track of assists now?
you’re the second instance this week.
maybe it’s a new meme…
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
you can't force the memes
just sit back and let them come.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
oh yes
I only observe
but when two separate threads generate the same reply, it’s a promising bellwhether
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
I only observe
Thats what she said
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Monk is on today.
Two TWSS’s in one subthread….impressive.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 24, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Your comments are bordering dangerously on crossing the "No Politics" line.
But I’m going to give you a rec for this anyway.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
we just
need to create a timetable for meme withdrawal
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
No, I think he is being 6.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
I will tip my hat to the individual
that can actually kill a meme in a community like this.
by arch support on Nov 24, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not necessarily clever
but I’m doggedly persistent and I remain convinced of a 2010 break from memes. Lookout Landing (who I do not want to use as a role model often but it works in this instance) does a fanpost with dead memes periodically. I’m envisioning much the same thing.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
you just want us to go easy on the Skip memes.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
I always thought those were funny but
they never had the incessant traction of the “first” or “TWSS” memes. If Skip would avoid looking so buff in ST we wouldn’t have this issue anyway.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I guess.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Did you know he had tattoos?
I’m seriously jealous of his fitness level.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
I feel like I need to go do a couple thousand sit-ups now.
Or maybe I’ll just go have another piece of pumpkin cake.
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Nov 24, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Skip trains with ex-SWAT
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I seem to be the last one left on VEB
there were a couple more, and then they just faded.
maybe to eat lunch.
I bet Mama Molina likes them more. sigh.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
fyi
Y2S… I think you’ll be glad to hear that my 2 y/o nephew informed me that he is now Blane Molina.
Yes, there are more out there…
"He ran hard, but he didn't run fast. He runs like he's mad at the ground." - opposing broadcaster describing Yadi's speed.
haha sweet
has he hit the mohawk stage yet?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
yeah i was looking at an old thread (probably one you linked to)
And realized we haven’t seen molina4mvp for a few weeks. He was one of the more prolific molinas.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 24, 2009 2:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
one of them showed in a recent fanpost
then… disappeared.
I must be missing some big meal or something.
better make some pie.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I saw that photo during ST.
His shitty tattoos kind of remind me of my husband’s shitty tattoos. But yeah, he is really, really fit. Low body-fat.
Now with extra feisty!
Perhaps...
the best shape of his life?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Hmm. I may have revised my opinion of Skip's level of attractiveness.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
Oooooo... very nice.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 26, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
I've always liked Skip.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 29, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
All that's going to do
is give us ideas for memes to revive…
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
how about a meme cemetery?
engrave those tombstones – i forget who always posts those.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Political blogs used to do that constantly
FWIW
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
Crap
Here I thought I was being vaguely clever.
by Mulliganstew on Nov 24, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
moi aussi, mon petit cheux
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
C'est ce qu'elle a dit?
I want the Walrus back...
by Paulspike on Nov 24, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
speak American damnit!
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 24, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
J'ai la bitte du cheval.
just testing what i can get away with in a foreign language.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
yuck
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 6:10 AM EST up reply actions
Ca c'est drole
or lolz, as it were
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
P.S. Please forgive poor construction; I'm fourteen years removed from seven years of French classes
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
No Piniero?
Didn’t he pitch in this era.
Great Hot Stove article although I have to admit this pre-dates my knolwedge of St. Louis baseball. Comiskey is the only recognizable name to me
So O’neill had two careers: baseball and politics. Quite an achievement
Just win
I'm waiting for Kanye.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I'm waiting for Godot
but I was interrupted.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
was he the greatest of all time?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
OF ALL TIME!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Yo Kanye meme, I’m really happy for you, and I’ma let you finish, but lolcats is one of the most outplayed memes of all time! OF ALL TIME!
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
they knew you were listening?
surely they were joking. If not, they are the ones who are f’d.
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Well...
they knew I was in the linking bedroom and that I was awake.. The rest, I am assuming..
I want the Walrus back...
Nelson Cruz an option?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/teams-calling-about-nelson-cruz.html
Gawd I hope not. Dont buy high again.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
Screaming flop
just looks like a career year on payday!
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
Cruz is great
but there’s no way the Rangers will move him. Also, we don’t have anything that would be as valuable in a trade, unless we give them Rasmus. Ken Rosenthal is talking out of his ass.
If Cruz isn’t playing in Arlington next year I will bear my ass in a shop window of Rosenthal’s choice.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
Well, depends on your definition, but he's pretty damn good.
He strikes out too much (~25% last 2 years) and his power is aided by Arlington, I’d guess (he had a 21.2% HR/FB rate in 2008 and 2009, which is well above average, and suggests he might’ve been a bit lucky with some shots clearing the fences, and it’d likely be somewhat lower in Busch), but his last two years have been remarkably good. Walkrate’s soared over 10% into the “good” category, his OBP is about .350, and he’s belted 40 HR in 640 PA.
He wasn’t especially lucky on balls in play, either – BABIP and thus BA were crazy high in 2008 in his 133 PAs, but in the larger sample size (2009) he had a BABIP of just .280 (which seems low for a guy like Cruz) in 462 PAs, which is below his career rate of .290. Even if his HR rate dips (which it will) as he gets less luck or moves to a larger stadium, you’d expect his BABIP to continue at its current level or even improve. His career hitting stats are .255/.321/.473 (.341 wOBA, which is above-average), and his stats the last couple of years are MUCH improved over 2006 and 2007. You’d assume the improvements will mostly remain, as he’s upped his walkrate, reduced his K rate and shown more power.
Bill James projects .284/.354/.541 next year, which seems a bit bullish to me but even if you downgrade those stats by 20 points of OBP and 40 points of SLG it’s still a great line.
Cruz is also a brilliant fielder. Most scouts seem to say this, and his UZR over 2400 innings in the corner outfield spots is better than +10 runs/season.
Over the last two years in basically about one full season of PAs he’s worth more than 5 WAR according to FanGraphs. Like I say, I expect him to fall back a bit, but he’s still better than any OF we have, IMO.
He’s pretty good.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Last time I checked stadium affects
Believe it or not Arlington actually is below average in HR’s. But their is big splits between Arlington and other parks in other offensive categories. Byrd had like a 150 point difference in OPS between home and away.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 24, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with everything you say.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I Dunno About Great...
….but I think he’d be a good Holliday substitution, if we cud land him.. Remember, though, he is 29, and only really had his first full season in the bigs, sort of a moore power/less hitting Ludwick. Still, depending on what they want he cud be a nice option.
:=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
I think it'd have to be Ludwick + prospects
or Rasmus. I think Texas are nearing win-now mode.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
Im concerned about his age - thanks moocow
and his splits vs LHP and on the road. I worry about him away from Arlington.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
his age shouldn't be a problem
we’d own him (as will texas) through his peak years. His splits are a little troubling, yes. Plus the fact that he hit a ton of HR with a high HR/FB rate in a tiny bandbox park. His HR rate would definitely drop in Busch, but he’d still be a very good player.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe
but if you’d give up Rasmus (23 as I assume you know) then i think age is an issue. Plus, dont you think Cruz is due for a Ludwick like regression? Ludwick had a breakout/all star year at 29 and then the next year fell back into a good player but certainly not the potential “star” he was in 2008.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
Let me be clear
Im not saying that you said you WOULD trade Rasmus for him, just that you mentioned the Rangers may require Rasmus in a deal.
Mo, you can trade anything of mine.
Ludwick had an unlucky year beset by injury
I think his true ability lies somewhere between his 2008 and 2009 seasons. If Cruz remains healthy and doesn’t have drastically bad ball-in-play luck (as Ludwick did) I think he can repeat a similar year, albeit with a bit less power.
As you said, I wouldn’t give up Rasmus for Cruz. I think the two may have similar seasons next year but ras is younger, plays a more important defensive position (although Cruz probably could handle CF, given his corner abilities) and is cheaper for more years than Cruz, who I think already has 3 years service time.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
agree cruz is pretty darn good
and that there’s no reason for texas to trade him – they could be pretty tough.
and also that we of course don’t swap colby.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Since when is
“Teams are calling about ____________, who is low cost and just had a breakout season”, qualify as news? Of course teams are calling about him, he’s a very good corner outfielder who is cheap.
In related news, teams are calling the Cardinals about Albert Pujols and Colby Rasmus, the Nationals about Ryan Zimmerman and Stephen Strasburg, and the Rays about Evan Longoria and Ben Zobrist.
My interpretation of Ken Rosenthal’s morning before breakfast:
- Roll out of bed.
- Put on reading glasses.
- Pick up list of players who just had breakout seasons and are pre-arbitration.
- Pick up cell phone and put out a tweet saying said player’s front office is getting calls about him.
- Cross said player off list
- Profit!
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
+1
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
OT: For anyone interested in prospect discussions
Goold unveiled the BA top 10 today in his BirdLand blog:
1. Shelby Miller, RHP
2. Jaime Garcia, LHP
3. Lance Lynn, RHP
4. Daryl Jones, OF
5. David Freese, 3B
6. Eduardo Sanchez, RHP
7. Allen Craig, OF/1B/3B
8. Blake Hawksworth, RHP
9. Daniel Descalso, 2B
10. Robert Stock, C
I wonder, is Hawksworth ranked as a starter, or reliever?
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
I like that list
I’d have Descalso higher (top 5) and Freese lower, and I’m not sure I have Sanchez in my top 10, but I can’t really argue with any of that.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
I agree.
And Hawksworth not on the list.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
yeah
I struggle to think who else I’d include, though. Henley for one. Maybe I bump Sanchez to 10 and Henley in for Hawk.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
I think Reifer or Salas
would also deserve a mention on here, as both have been impressive at different levels.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
All four, in my mind, are more worthy of the top 10 than Hawksworth,
and I’m a Hawksworth fan, even if there is no reason to believer that he won’t come crashing back down to major-league earth next season, if he doesn’t start striking some more opposing batters out.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
DanUp should stop picking favorites
what’s his record?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Salas is kinda in no-man's land with his injuries
but I believe he’s a real talent, although I’d have him nearer the 15-20 range I think. I don’t really think Reifer is much of anything to be honest. His K/BB ratio was poor at high-A ball, he’s 24 before the next season starts, and his HR rate doesn’t look sustainable. I don’t think he will ever play in the majors.
That’s kinda the problem IMO with relievers as prospects – with the small sample sizes and the “specialist” role of the job, they’re more prone to peaks and troughs than other players, and seem to come and go with major regularity. Small sample sizes can capture excitement in minor league relievers much more so than any other player.
Plus, when they actually MAKE IT to the big leagues, they’re less valuable than other players. That’s why I’m not keen on Sanchez in the top 10 – he’s had a little over half a season of domination at AA, and, whilst I love his skillset and I think he could be legit, even if he doesn’t get injured (Salas) or stall as he gets moved up a level (Reifer, probably Mulligan, and yes I know these are very different players), the best we can realistically hope is that he turns into a major league player worth maybe 1 win per year over a replacement AAA arm in the bullpen.
I just don’t really like relievers as high ranked prospects for all those reasons. I wasn’t even sure about Chris Perez, about as can’t-miss as a bullpen arm gets, in the top 5 last year (though I think I did have him about 5, mind you).
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
If we're ranking in terms of talent and potential
which I think is all you can do with prospects, then Salas, Reifer, and Sanchez all have as much potential as anyone else in our system, it’s whether they’ll realize it is the question.
Our cupboard right now is pretty damn bare after the trades, graduating Colby, and Garcia, Salas, and DJ all having injury plagued seasons in which they didn’t play at all or struggled mightily while recovering.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Yeah I suppose
I just don’t see much in Reifer, at all. He’s not particularly young for his level, he’s not striking out a ton, he’s walking far too many. I guess he might prove me wrong, and I’ve never seen him so I can only judge his stuff based on scouting reports, but I’m just not getting excited about a 23-year old closer with a 2/1 K/BB ratio in A ball.
I think a guy who might be an average OF (say, Henley) is more valuable than a guy who has the same chance of being an average reliever.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
I would guess he's ranked as a starter on that list
If he was a reliever he probably wouldn’t make the list.
As far as prospects go (i.e. no service time) I would move Craig up to #4 since he will have a shot to help the club next season. I guess I don’t really see how Freese is ranked ahead of him, since they are pretty much the same age and Freese will be coming off of an injury.
I looked at a list from FanGraphs’ Marc Hulet yesterday, and he has Lynn ranked ahead of both Miller and Garcia, which I found really interesting. I do think he’s been very impressive, but so was Brad Thompson at the minor league level, and I feel like Lynn may be on a similar career track. I’m guessing his qualifications are different, considering that Miller isn’t on his list I’m assuming he’s talking about players that may have an impact sometime in 2010, but that doesn’t explain why Kozma makes the cut, so I don’t want to speculate on what his qualifications are.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Miller
Hulet’s list did not include any 2009 draftees, which is why Miller wasn’t on his list. Still, I find it odd that Lynn is ranked ahead of Garcia.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Yes
I see the disclaimer at the top of the post now.
I don’t find it all that odd really — Lynn has been very, very good in his minor league seasons to date and Garcia is coming off of an injury. I just look at Brad Thompson’s minor league numbers and I think they look a lot like Lance Lynn’s minor league numbers. They may not be similar pitchers at all, but their numbers sure do look alike.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
That they do.
I don’t know enough about Lynn’s aresenal of pitches to compare him to Thompson, though.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
about 4 mph on the fastball between Lynn and PK
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 24, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Lynn's curve
is supposed to be much better than any breaking pitch that PK has to offer, and he does throw a little bit harder, but I wouldn’t suggest the 4 mph number that Flim threw out there. He’s generally in the 88-92 range, while PK is around the 86-90 range or so. He keeps the ball down and throws a sinker so I think they are very comparable.
Thompson walked a lot fewer hitters in the minors than Lynn has as well, but I think the Lynn has better strikeout potential due to better offspeed pitches than Thompson does. That said, I think he’ll have to get his walks down below 2 per 9 innings (while maintaining a 6.5+ K/9) to be an effective starter at the big league level.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Off-Speed Offerings
I also think that having a good breaking ball makes the sinker a more effective pitch. Thompson basically had no means of striking anyone out. If Lynn has a good curveball to keep hitters guessing and to maintain a decent K/9 rate, then he ought to be able to stick as a middle-of-the-rotation starter. Something that Thompson was unable to do.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I don't know for sure that it is
but if he HAD a curveball it would probably be better than Thompson’s.
I’ve not seen Lance Lynn pitch, so I’m going off of the scouting reports that I’ve read on him from Future Redbirds, Sickels, BA and so on.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think Lynn would improve a lot if he lost some weight.
Kid is FAT.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
(and I don't mean he's freely available and talented....)
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
I gotta check his milk carton...
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
So, is Lynn a Joe Blanton type?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
Is it just me
or does he look like a certain flat billed hat wearing pitcher from the past?
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
i like my pitchers like i like my women
thick and loose…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
"I'm already ranked #1, how can I improve from there?"

“Did you see that Lincecum chick? She’s hot.”
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
The Man vs. The Mang
To me, the most telling stat about The Man is that when he retired, he had recorded the most extra base hits of any player in history: more than Ruth, more than the Splendid Splinter, more than Cobb, Speaker, all of them. Willie Mays didn’t catch him.
In fact, he’s still third on the list, behind only Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds. Here’s the top 7:
Aaron 1477
Bonds 1440
Musial 1377
Ruth 1356
Mays 1327
Cobb 1136
Speaker 1131
by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 24, 2009 10:21 AM EST reply actions
Musial's greatness is underappreciated.
Unfortunately, he doesn’t have a house that he built.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
It's on Mardel. He rented, though.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Neither do Aaron or Bonds though
I think he’s under-appreciated because he played for the Cardinals and he really didn’t do anything that sticks in the minds of a casual baseball historian that isn’t a Cardinals fan.
Had he played for the Yankees or the Giants he’d be in every conversation about the great players of all time because he would have gotten more coverage in the media and he’d be talked about more. He’s a far better player than DiMaggio was, yet Joe D played for the Yanks, married Marilyn Monroe, and had a 56 game hitting streak.
There really isn’t anything remotely memorable about Stan Musial from a casual fan perspective (except for being one hell of a nice guy, and his harmonica introduction at Ozzie’s HOF Induction ceremony). He never had a great hitting streak, he never hit 40 homers, he never hit close to .400, and he never owned any of the big career records. People don’t remember you for leading the league in doubles 8 times, in triples 5 times, and in hits 6 times. They remember you for breaking records, and the only significant one he ever broke was the XBH (and Total Bases) that was mentioned above.
I think that if Hank Aaron had only hit 700 homers he wouldn’t be revered much either, it’s because of his record of 755 that he’s always gotten significant appeal from the casual fan even though he’s in the top 10 in most other offensive categories and was an exceptional defensive player for most of his career.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
I think that Aaron is underrated, too.
He was the home run king, and is a household name because of that, but this guy was a great all-around player. Both Aaron and Musial would be perceived much differently if they had played in NYC.
And Bonds does have the New Candlestick (whatever its corporate name is these days). By and large, I think his play is pretty responsible for that park getting built.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
I Totally agree.
If you eliminate all of his home runs, the Hammer would still have over 3000 hits. And he still holds the record for most RBI’s despite being on some crappy teams. And he has the most total bases, right ahead of The Man.
Love the historical perspective
Call me old-fashioned, and as much as I love the “current game”, it still fascinates me to read about the game of baseball and our Cardinals’ forerunners from nearly 130 years ago.
Thanks DanUp. Keep ’em coming.
Tip O'Neill had a decent run
After he hung up the cleats.

"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
we should have some boog and clobby today.
http://stltoday.mycapture.com/PHOTOS/STLT/697101/22403888E.jpg
watch out, Colby’s smiling.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I was there that day
Colby had just gone deep off of Adam Ottavino right before this picture was taken. I think I actually have a shot that is similar to this somewhere in the hundred or so photos I took at spring training.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
nice
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
My favorite picture ever!
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 24, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks, I was having Boog withdrawal
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
*sad trombone sound*
wahh
wahh
wahh
waaaaaah
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
here goes nothing
Well, for those of you who have been following the saga of my hard drive crash (don’t kid yourselves, you know you have), my recovery disc arrived moments ago and I am now beginning the process of reinstalling. Keep your fingers crossed that all of my files are safe and sound in my backup HD!
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
I've been waiting ages for another update, and all I get is a cliffhanger?!?!
Damn it!
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
the second movie in a trilogy
is never totally satisfying.
by DanUpBaby on Nov 24, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ah, an answer man...
truly questions are more interesting.
Also, Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls… far superior to Pet Detective or Ace Jr.
MB for LF in 2010!
wtf is Ace Jr.?
Was there a third movie? If there was, I vote we pretend it never happened.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Was that the cartoon?
Cause I don’t remember a 3rd movie either.
"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon
Made fo TV
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0844029/
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
That's far from a unanimous conclusion.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
I thought everyone knew
that Empire was the best?
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
Jedi my friend
best Star Wars movie ever!
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
RR: See?
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
You liked the ewoks didn't you.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
there was less incest in Jedi, though.
[will probably live to regret this comment]
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
And less Death Star in Empire.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Actually I do
And I like the Ewoks movies, but that isn’t why I liked Jedi. I have always been a fan of hero’s rising above and being able to overcome anything in their path. Empire was just the establishment of the problem’s that Luke had to overcome and while that was instrumental in making Jedi so good it just doesn’t stand alone to me. Would Empire be so good if it wasn’t for Jedi following it up? And would Jedi be good without the basis of Empire? Its like Jedi is Pujols and Empire is that good 2nd place hitter who can get on in front of him ;)
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Everyone of a certain age knows that.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
How dare you invoke The Holy Trilogy?
What’s a nubian?
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
by Solanus on Nov 24, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've been waiting all day for someone to mention The Godfather trilogy.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I have that box set
But it only came with 2 dvd’s
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 24, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, the exception that proves the rule, perhaps?
The second was certainly better than the third, and I say that as a Godfather III apologist.
Though, to be fair, I watched the third one on my own, and nobody told me anything about it in advance. And I liked it, not as much as the others obv., but I didn’t think it was bad at all.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
updates. . .to keep you on the edge of your seat
Recovery went smooth. . . now its auto installing, starting up, shutting down. Still too early to tell on the backed up files
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
Final update: I'M BACK!
and so ends this twisted saga. For those of you who like a happy ending, all is well. The new HD is great, the backed up files are on the backup HD, and everything appears to be fine.
Possible spinoffs include: how to restore the backed up files to the primary HD and trying to get my microsoft office back even though I don’t think I have a product key saved anywhere.
/cue ominous sounding music
Thanks to everyone who helped me wade through this: flim, tom, spants, prophetjohn, and anyone else who has helped me, thanks again!
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
two good things happened today, so we've got that going for us
which is nice
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Everyone read this
http://www.3-dbaseball.net/2009/11/pitching-to-contact-and-fip.html
For those who say that FIP overvalues the strikeout, you need to read this.
DO IT!
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:02 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
This article is awesome.
One thing: Can I ask you a question about his math?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
What exactly do you do to modify the league average pitcher's ERA to account for team defense?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
You have to modify the formula
The formula for FIP is the value of the Three True Outcomes – the value of a ball in play *9. So…
HR: 1.40
BB: .30
SO: -.27
BIP -.04
FIP = ((1.4 – .04)9)HR + ((.3-.04)9)BB – ((-.27-.04)9)SO
To adjust it for defense, you have to calculate the expected out value of a ball in play given a certain quality of defense, subtract that number from the -.04, and use that in the formula above.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Gah, SBN stripped out numbers in the comment
It should be this:
FIP = ((1.4 – .04)*9)*HR + ((.3-.04)*9)*BB – ((-.27-.04)*9)*SO
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
I didnt see stripped numbers
what I saw was bolded 9s, i think everything betwee *’s must turn to bold
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
From the formatting guide
at the bottom of the page:
Bold phrase (* )Bold phrase( *)
parenthesis are mine.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
I guess I'm asking something more specific but not wording it correctly.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Ya wanna know how to figure out the average value of a BIP based on UZR?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yes...
For instance, he used the mariners defense. In his article he does this:
The league average ERA this year was 4.32, but we know that that won’t be the case given a +85 run defense. A league average pitcher, given +85 defense, will have about a 3.84 ERA. Using that figure, we can recalculate our constant for FIP and calculate a new number that is an estimate of actual ERA, not of ERA minus defensive support. This means that we would expect our 2.79 FIP pitcher to have an actual ERA of about 2.31.
What happened during the bolded section?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
You asked about ERA
but the article was about FIP, do you want to know how to modify the league ERA to come up with basically a league FIP?
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Oh, I get what you are saying.
If you have a team that’s +80 runs by UZR in 1458 innings, and a league average pitcher who pitches 200 innings for that team, you would expect him to give up 11 less runs than the average pitcher.
So if a 4.40 ERA pitcher pitches 200 innings, he gives up 97 runs. If you subtract 11, you get 86. 86 runs in 200 innings is a 3.87 ERA.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Oh shit.
That’s easier than I was expecting.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
I think that might just be short cut
You probably have to adjust the expects outs also, but that’s a bitch.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Great article
That clears up a lot in less than 2000 words!
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Y'know. . .
I have to think pretty hard about this article and the statistical implications, but my initial impression is that “defense-adjusted FIP” is less predictive than regular FIP, or even xFIP. It seems to me that the adjustments introduce a bunch of noise without adding much in the way of granularity.
For starters, here are the two concepts that I have trouble with:
“This defense was worth 85 runs above average, or roughly .02 runs per BIP. An average BIP is worth -.04 runs, so an average BIP pitching in front of this defense is worth -.06 runs (remember that lower is better for the defense).”
How so? First of all, I’m uncertain about how RAA are calculated with respect to defense, but I strongly suspect that they are not calculated with the benefit component batted ball / strikeout data. To put it another way, is RAA calculated as if the defense in question was facing a league-average mix of strikeouts and batted balls? And regardless of that fact, the “average BIP pitching in front of this defense” would depend in part on how many BIPs this defense faces, which would of course depend on the pitcher. Circular, no?
“The league average ERA this year was 4.32, but we know that that won’t be the case given a +85 run defense. A league average pitcher, given +85 defense, will have about a 3.84 ERA.”
Does the “average pitcher” mean a pitcher who gives up the league-average mix of batted balls and strikeouts? Or does “average pitcher” mean, as I suspect, some mythical figure that is based solely on the league’s run scoring environment?
Those are my initial impressions about the problems with how well defense-adjusted FIP operates as a predictive stat. Don’t even get me started about the problems it faces as a stat that accurately measures historical value, given my prejudice for actual results rather than “should have been in a neutral environment” results. IMHO the Cy should measure “results” and not “skill” or “talent”. Otherwise, why don’t we just come up with a stat based on a mix of LD% and HR/FB (or ISO) in order to determine who should be the MVP?
by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 24, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
Calling all saber geeks! Bird Land commenters need your help!
In his latest blog post DG reviews a bunch of acronym soup and finds that AP is still #1 even based on those numbers and as such there is no statisitical arguement against him winning the MVP. Several of the commenters though are still not fully understanding the concept of Saber stats. Specifically how replacement level is determined. If I was even half as knowledgable as VEP on some of these things I would correct them myself, but I would rather not confuse the poor people.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Replacement level is determined historically
I’m not exactly sure how though.
It doesn’t matter either way. If you compare Pujols to average or replacement level his proportional value above the league remains the same.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
I understand that
but someone asked i Pujols coming up mid season in 01 instead of starting the season would “skew” replacement level for that year, which is not how replacement level is formed, I just don’t know the real answer.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
I thought it was determined to be two wins below average production
In fact I think it has to be otherwise we couldn’t say that two wins above replacement level = average. Average production must vary, year on year.
Bah. I’m too tired to actually think this through. Shitty day. Disregard.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Replacement level is part of average...
I also don’t know how it’s calculated, but this seems like the cart before the horse. Let me go look this up for real.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Check TangoTiger.com
I think he has a section on replacement level there. There is also something at THT I think.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Right, it's two wins below average
I guess people are having trouble understanding where than number comes from.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
enjoying the Pujols highlights on WWL
not enjoying anything else on WWL.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
this just in, Keith Law has no idea
Had Law left Vazquez off his ballot, the righthander would not have received a bonus. One vote made Vazquez money — not a gob of money compared to the rest of his contract, but a good stack of nickels by any measure. When I mentioned this to Law yesterday he was taken aback. "I had no idea," he said.
(this was not just in, and that was Goold doin’ what he does best)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I thought it was a good amount of money like $400K
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 24, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
$100k. you know. pocket change.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 24, 2009 2:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I remember it was more than Greinke got for winning.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Against Amaury Marti?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
BILL BRASKY!!!
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Nov 24, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Bill Brasky was a Son-of-a-bitch.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Are you guys talking about Bill Brasky?
I know him!
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Bill Brasky was 8 feet tall if he was an inch!!!
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Nov 24, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
that's Dreamy.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
you know what sucks?
i should hate that dude, like really really hate him. but i can’t. i just can’t hate him. i just sit in the corner & give him the good old golf clap & shake my head
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Why would you hate him?
He doesn’t play for the Cubs, Astros, or Mets, and his last name isn’t Denkinger.
This is how I judge my hate of baseball people, by the way.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
i mean he does things i can only dream about, and not just on the diamond
and maybe hates way too strong of a word here. but jealously doesn’t seem strong enough. i know this is cliche, but he’s got it all figured out. he’s an amazing player, women literally throw themselves at him. he’s got the world at his fingertips. and he’s still a kid. here i am and old fart struggling just to keep my head above water. i should be very jealous & envious of him but i’m not. God bless him i hope he keeps this up for another 15 seasons. he seems like a really solid & cool dude with a good head on his shoulders.
so i can’t hate. i can only congratulate. and wonder how it all went so horribly wrong for myself & keep trying to fix it.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
he lives in minnesota.
i hear they cull their herds.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I think the cow might have more problems with this
than gdm would….
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
the ones that escape the cull
the winter gets ’em
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Joe Mauer
is one of the lucky ones
what happens to him when he strikes out… we’ll never know. we’re not one of them.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
well in high school i never struck out once playing baseball
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 24, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Me either
it was usually at least twice a game.
by ArkansasTravs on Nov 25, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
To cull means to discard undesirable or unproductive animals.
A herd is a group of animals usually reserved for cattle, buffalo, deer and such.
the last part was for smart ass humor.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 24, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry I shoulda picked up on it.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 25, 2009 2:50 AM EST up reply actions
aww, buck up little camper
November can get a person down.
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
i hate the holidays, they are hell for me
and this damn woman won’t stop playing mind games with me. i need a vacation from reality in the worst way.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
I recommend crack.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 6:17 AM EST up reply actions
He should grow a mustache.
Take a vacation… from yourself.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I don't like them either (holidays or mind games)
I prescribe music—less risky than crack.
Do you like Interpol? You sound like you’re in an Interpol mood. They’re always on my November playlist. Try listening to PDA and Say Hello To the Angels very, very loudly while thinking “fuck off, you horrible bitch.” It’ll either cure ya or kill ya. You don’t deserve that, so don’t let her do it..
"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog
"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009
i'll check those out later andi
thanks
the holiday season is very, very hard for all of us. dad died two weeks before xmas two years ago & that’s part of it. but there is also a lot of other crap that’s happened over the years that just make this time of year pretty much unbearable. i really wish i could just go to an island out in the pacific from now till march so i wouldn’t have to deal with this. everyone is so happy & joyful & has all these great times & memories, and i just don’t have that. i’m no fun to be around & i apologize in advance to everyone if i do or say something offensive over the next two months. i should probably just take some time off so i can avoid doing that.
so if you don’t see old gdm around don’t worry, he’s still in the basement surrounded by the three B’s. he’s just trying to spare you all from his misery.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
I remember watching Jeff Clement (Pirates C/1B)
play in high school and I think I saw him swing and miss 3 or 4 times in the span of his 4 year career. He’s probably the best high school player that I’ve ever seen play.
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
Albert has it
do we say Arrrrrr now?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I ruined it
f’in Y2.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Unanimous MVP
Done. RIght.
"He ran hard, but he didn't run fast. He runs like he's mad at the ground." - opposing broadcaster describing Yadi's speed.
MVP
Pujols
HRam
Howard
Fielder
Tulo
Ethier
Sandoval
Utley
D Lee
Kemp
bbwaa.com
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
fix the link
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Carp, Waino, Holliday, and Yadi got votes too.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
Just posted that too
I was trying to get the top 10 list up quick
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Carp finished ahead of Waino
25 – 16. if he’d just had a few more 6th place votes, we wouldn’t even be talking about it.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Holliday was 1 pt behind Waino
Carp luggaged it down, I’m sure.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Who gave Han-Ram a 9th place vote?!?!?!
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
The same person that gave Utley a 10th?
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Or the 14 voters that didn't put Chase on there at all
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
perhaps Fredbird can lend the Phanatic the van
and put them in the middle of the Bank and… see what happens.
That is, if Phillies fans know who Chase Utley is.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
D-Lee gotta 2nd place vote??? Really?
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
cubs.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
Yeah, that seemed odd.
Also kind of surprising that Carp and Waino both got more points than Lincecum.
by BTown Birds fan on Nov 24, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Utley got 0 2nd place votes, but Howard got 6...
As great as it has been to see the BBWAA get the top guy right for each award, there are a lot of bad votes out there still.
Ryan Zimmerman: 4th in WAR, 4th to last in MVP voting (1 point ahead of Jeremy Affeldt).
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Zimmerman at least got 2 votes
Yadi only got 1 yet finishes ahead of Zimmerman. Ballots are screwed up.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Also, the Lee in 2nd isn't nearly as bad as the Howards and Ethiers in 2nd.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
wow, what *does* Chase Utley have to do to get any respect
maybe it’s the hair gel.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
He can sing, too!

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
IIIIIIIIIIIIII
AM A MA-HAN
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
because my te-eee-eee-eam
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
gave 400 plate appearances to Brandon Morrrrrroowwwwwww
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
you should finish this and fanpost
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Yadi got respect :)
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
one 8th place vote! woohoo!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
FWIW, the unanimous decision puts Mang at 5th all-time in MVP shares
according to Baseball Reference. (They don’t have it updated yet, but even I can do that math.) He’s behind only Bonds, The Man, Ted Williams and Willie Mays; just ahead of Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio. He’s also
ridiculous.
by BTown Birds fan on Nov 24, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions
So Waino has more Cy shares than
Mulder, Hudson, Prior, Oswalt, and even Matty Mo, man it is awesome to watch one of the best young pitchers on the same team as the best player in baseball.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Maybe I am wrong
But at one time in baseball couldn’t a player only win a MVP once?
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 24, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Musial won 3
so must have been a long time ago
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Lou Gehrig also won two, so it would have to have been before the 30s.
But Babe Ruth only won one, and looking at the voting patterns for those two it looks like you’re probably right – I’d guess that before 1931 you weren’t eligible after you’d already won. For both Ruth and Gehrig, they won one in the 1920s then had several years with incredible seasons (including Ruth’s 60 HR season in 1927) but no votes. Then they both start getting votes again in 1931, and Gehrig won it again in 1936.
Looking at Ruth’s numbers from 1924-1931, who knows how many MVP shares he’d have if he’d been eligible (assuming you’re right about the one win rule). He was first in OPS+ every year from 1918 to 1931 (and for several of those years Gehrig was right behind him).
by BTown Birds fan on Nov 24, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Also....why are there only 28 voters for AL MVP and 32 for NL MVP?
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
More NL teams.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
There are two voters for each market.
by BTown Birds fan on Nov 24, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, didn't know that.
Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
i'm pleased pujols won unanimously.
I’m sad for chase utley who got shut out of the top five. Nobody but pujols and maybe hanley – maybe – deserved the mvp more than chase. Not howard, fielder, or tulo.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 24, 2009 2:26 PM EST via mobile reply actions
perhaps he needs to change his name.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
To Bryan Howard.
Also ignored: Zimmerman and Adrian Gonzalez.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
I'm still pulling for Chase Subestimado.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Pujols is still underrated if you ask me.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Albert is ridiculous! It's unanimous!
Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth.
by RosevilleRedbird on Nov 24, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
someone call Brendan Ryan
Scroll down to The Most Important Thing Any Mammal Has Ever Done
I’m trying to gauge how many people would be interested in buying one of these Beavers undershirts if we could get a manufacturer to produce a small quantity of them.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
that would be good in the stadium...
maybe paired with a Redbirds Stache t-shirt. I’m no expert, of course.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
wow, unanimous
congrats, duder
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
when I search for "adam wainwright win 2006"
VEB yields a chipmunk and a spoonful of grits on the third page.
On page five, there’s the first unicorn.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I got a unicorn on page 3,
but I’m at work, so google is on safe….
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
the "unsafe" pics of Adam
are not that unsafe.
oh, except for the clown. did you get the clown?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
page five also has:
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
no clowns....
but that;s not surprising as clowns are not safe,

"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick

by 























