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The Greatest Cardinals of Each Time: The American Association

It is a lucky thing for Cardinals writers that Stan Musial's birthday falls in the offseason; in July it would be a blip on the radar while complaining about relief pitching remained in fashion, but in November there is simply nothing else to talk about. As The Man gets older and his first plausible heir nears 30 it makes sense to begin wondering where each will fall on the list of all-time greatest Cardinals, even if the resulting P-D article was less than satisfying in some ways. 

But it's simply too soon; Albert Pujols has played nine seasons, while Musial went an astonishing sixteen before his skills finally dropped below a Hall of Fame level. Even in a comparison of their careers to this point there's a lot to confound; Musial began his career during World War II, amid a serious drop in competition, which makes it seem like he arrived at 21 fully formed instead of maturing into someone who put up the same stats against better players at 25. 

It's hard to compare players across eras; it's easier in baseball, which has stayed comparatively stable since the live ball era, when the jump shot was a gleam in Hank Luisetti's eye and the forward pass was 20 years old, but even then we must deal with integration, with expansion, with timeline adjustment (I'm not for it, for what it's worth) and the changing utilization of pitchers. When Albert Pujols finally retires—at fifty, having won, as the saying goes, fifteen straight MVP awards and then six straight Albert Pujols awards—it will be time to wade into the murk that comes with adjusting for World War II and the really-live-ball era into which Bobby Bonilla allowed Albert Pujols. Until then we can only say that Albert Pujols is the best Cardinal of this era, and Stan Musial the best of his own. Until then the interesting question is this: Who's the best Cardinal of each time? 

Star-divide

The American Association Browns: 1882-1891

If you've been in the Cardinals' team store you already know that these guys, the rough-and-tumble Browns of the American Association, created a World Series to earn some extra money, and once put himself in as manager, are not officially recognized by the St. Louis Cardinals as... Cardinals, est. 1892. But prior to joining the National League the Browns were among the best teams in base ball, winning four consecutive pennants and taking a proto-World Series championship in 1886. 

Baseball in the 1880s was moving in the direction of the sport we know now. Gloves were being adopted; there were two leagues that occasionally played each other; the number of balls to a walk and where a pitcher ought to stand varied across the decade. By the end of the period the Browns were playing about 140 games a year, give or take a few. But careers were short and effective careers even shorter. Here's every hitter who accrued 1000 plate appearances for these Browns: 

RkPlayerOPS+PAToFromGABRH2B3BHRRBIBBSBBAOBPSLG
1 Tip O'Neill 158 3519 1884 1891 785 3183 697 1092 185 70 47 625 300 118 .343 .406 .489
2 Bob Caruthers 156 1146 1884 1887 268 985 245 308 56 27 15 146 154 75 .313 .409 .470
3 Tommy McCarthy 115 2471 1888 1891 540 2241 507 687 93 25 17 295 200 270 .307 .371 .393
4 Yank Robinson 115 2584 1885 1891 603 2108 462 537 100 30 12 303 419 221 .255 .392 .348
5 Dave Foutz 112 1248 1884 1887 302 1194 204 353 54 26 7 201 51 39 .296 .326 .402
6 Curt Welch 106 1648 1885 1887 381 1539 296 426 81 28 8 272 77 148 .277 .325 .381
7 Bill Gleason 101 3041 1882 1887 659 2838 552 781 99 33 7 232 161 42 .275 .324 .341
8 Arlie Latham 95 3932 1883 1889 839 3652 829 975 134 48 11 245 239 367 .267 .319 .339
9 Charlie Comiskey 92 4554 1882 1891 1036 4389 816 1198 161 58 26 694 135 336 .273 .299 .354
10 Hugh Nicol 83 1594 1883 1886 383 1488 255 361 44 12 0 103 100 38 .243 .293 .288
11 Shorty Fuller 72 1841 1889 1891 407 1629 316 390 42 22 3 154 192 140 .239 .327 .298
12 Jack Boyle 71 1518 1887 1891 381 1393 213 336 40 15 11 185 101 42 .241 .304 .315

That's it. Only Charlie Comiskey, first baseman-manager, suited up every season (except for 1890, when both the AA and the NL came under attack by the Players' League), but he can be pretty easily removed from consideration; at the time first base was considered significantly more defensively important than it is now, and he was certainly an excellent one—although probably not, as he'd later claim, the first man to play off the bag—but his .273 batting average was empty even in an age of empty batting averages, and his player-managing is a skill extremely specific to this era. 

Tip O'Neill, on the other hand, was among the best hitters in the American Association's brief history, winning two consecutive batting titles for the Browns and, in 1887, having the best season of the decade. That year he actually hit .435/.490/.691, leading the league in all three slash stats, runs (167 in 124 games), hits, doubles triples, home runs, and RBI, but thanks to a brief scorekeeping experiment it originally went into the record-books even better than that. In 1887, perhaps in the throes of its first sabermetric revolution, baseball decided a walk counted, for record-keeping purposes, as a hit. This was the only season it was true, and it coincided with Tip O'Neill's career year, the end result being that, depending on whom you ask, he still holds the all-time single season batting average record at .492. 

Among position players, O'Neill is basically unchallenged for Browns supremacy; Arlie Latham is another honorable mention, thanks to his baserunning, his shaky play at third base (at the time nearer shortstop, as a defensive position, than center field), and the good fortune of being nicknamed "The Freshest Man on Earth", but he doesn't have the hitting chops, either. 

But in the 1880s the question of greatness is a discussion that must necessarily include pitchers. These teams used no more than three pitchers in a season, if they could help it, and they almost always finished games. Careers win totals ended up basically within historical norms, Cy Young aside, but it was because a great pitcher's career was compressed into the brief and wonderful moments before his arm became completely useless to him for the rest of his life. Hoss Radbourn, for instance, newly minted Twitter star and one of the greats of the 1880s, won 309 games and lost 195, which is remarkably close to Tom Glavine's career record of 305-203. But Glavine did it in exactly twice as many seasons as Radbourn did—22 to 11. 

So in a few years a great pitcher could be extremely valuable. Here are the Browns who managed to pitch 1000 innings before it became necessary for someone else to comb their hair:

RkPlayerERA+IPToFromAgeGSCGSHOWLHRERBBSOERAHBPWP
1 Bob Caruthers 146 1293.1 1884 1887 20-23 142 141 10 106 38 1151 579 360 219 488 2.51 45 33
2 Silver King 145 1433.2 1887 1889 19-21 161 153 10 111 50 1300 693 431 310 574 2.71 17 29
3 Jack Stivetts 138 1051.0 1889 1891 21-23 122 99 8 72 50 909 577 352 479 691 3.01 14 74
4 Dave Foutz 136 1457.2 1884 1887 27-30 166 156 16 114 48 1305 760 433 362 619 2.67 47 48
5 Jumbo McGinnis 117 1325.0 1882 1886 28-32 153 145 18 88 61 1252 751 402 203 474 2.73 25 11

You'll remember "Parisian" Bob Caruthers from the first list, and that's why he's one of my favorite Cardinals of all time. If O'Neill is the easy choice, Caruthers, who would be a shoo-in if he hadn't been dispatched to Brooklyn following the 1887 season, is the Fun Choice. In MVP discussions the Fun Choice can be terrifying; it leads to people making straight-faced proclamations about Shannon Stewart being the AL MVP, or Ryan Howard being more valuable because he sucked at the beginning of the season. But here I can empathize with it. 

Bob Caruthers was one of the best hitters in baseball and one of the best pitchers in baseball at the same time; in 1885 he led the AA in ERA+, and in 1886 he led it in OPS+. That 1886 season is one of the coolest of early baseball's freakshow years; he went 30-14 with a 2.32 ERA, second in the league, and also hit .334/.448/.527 in a league that hit .243/.305/.323. ERA+: 148; OPS+: 200. On days he didn't pitch he stood in right field, where his arm was presumably more than accurate. 

Silver King is probably also worth a mention; owner of a famous "crossfire" pitching delivery that resembles Mark Worrell's wind-up a little more than is comfortable, King, who stepped into the void left by Caruthers as a 19 year-old, went 45-21 with a 1.64 ERA in his second of three seasons with the hometown Browns. His is maybe the prototypical 19th century pitcher's career: 142-75 as a 22 year-old, he would finish his career, after a brief and somewhat successful comeback in the late 1890s, at 203-154. Those three seasons with the Browns were great, as is his Arthurian name, but unfortunately for the guy who followed Parisian Bob he just couldn't hit. 

This early in history, even our methods for determing the most valuable player aren't extremely useful. By WAR, Caruthers is the winner; he was worth 30.6 wins above a replacement pitcher alone, without even taking his hitting (+9.6) into account. But Caruthers played in an era where one good pitcher was simply more valuable than he is now, since he pitched such an extreme proportion of his team's games. O'Neill, only a position player, spread those same 30 wins out over seven years, but it was through no fault of his own. 

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I like

well, I don’t Bill Frist obviously, because he’s a conniving asshole, but I like the pun.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 7:02 AM EST up reply actions  

in 2010

all 2009 memes die.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Nov 24, 2009 7:55 AM EST up reply actions  

This is right

"But as the leadoff guy that inning, my job is to get on base and let guys drive me in." - Albert Pujols 8/20/09, base-clogger.

by lightbulb on Nov 24, 2009 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think a unilateral pull-out is the best plan

you’ll only create a meme vacuum in a potentially unstable blog.

Dissident elements may move in.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

the more you try to kill memes

the more they come back
and then the meme-killing becomes a meme

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Milhouse is not a meme is a meme.

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

just upping my assist total.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

is VEB keeping track of assists now?

you’re the second instance this week.

maybe it’s a new meme…

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

you can't force the memes

just sit back and let them come.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

oh yes

I only observe
but when two separate threads generate the same reply, it’s a promising bellwhether

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I only observe

Thats what she said

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what she said?

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Nov 24, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Monk is on today.

Two TWSS’s in one subthread….impressive.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 24, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Your comments are bordering dangerously on crossing the "No Politics" line.

But I’m going to give you a rec for this anyway.

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

we just

need to create a timetable for meme withdrawal

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Nov 24, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Not 6.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Nov 24, 2009 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

No, I think he is being 6.

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I will tip my hat to the individual

that can actually kill a meme in a community like this.

by arch support on Nov 24, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not necessarily clever

but I’m doggedly persistent and I remain convinced of a 2010 break from memes. Lookout Landing (who I do not want to use as a role model often but it works in this instance) does a fanpost with dead memes periodically. I’m envisioning much the same thing.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Nov 24, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

you just want us to go easy on the Skip memes.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I always thought those were funny but

they never had the incessant traction of the “first” or “TWSS” memes. If Skip would avoid looking so buff in ST we wouldn’t have this issue anyway.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Nov 24, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I guess.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Rec'd!

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Nov 24, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

flagged!

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 24, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you know he had tattoos?

I’m seriously jealous of his fitness level.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Nov 24, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel like I need to go do a couple thousand sit-ups now.

Or maybe I’ll just go have another piece of pumpkin cake.

"Ryan Howard hit behind Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley. If Albert Pujols hit behind Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley, he would have had 493 RBI. Do the math. It checks out." - FJM

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Nov 24, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Skip trains with ex-SWAT

we have no chance

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I seem to be the last one left on VEB

there were a couple more, and then they just faded.

maybe to eat lunch.

I bet Mama Molina likes them more. sigh.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

fyi

Y2S… I think you’ll be glad to hear that my 2 y/o nephew informed me that he is now Blane Molina.

Yes, there are more out there…

"He ran hard, but he didn't run fast. He runs like he's mad at the ground." - opposing broadcaster describing Yadi's speed.

by TNTinCO on Nov 24, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

haha sweet

has he hit the mohawk stage yet?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

not yet.

probably because his mom won’t let him.

but when he said it, i totally thought of your sig.

"He ran hard, but he didn't run fast. He runs like he's mad at the ground." - opposing broadcaster describing Yadi's speed.

by TNTinCO on Nov 24, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah i was looking at an old thread (probably one you linked to)

And realized we haven’t seen molina4mvp for a few weeks. He was one of the more prolific molinas.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Nov 24, 2009 2:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

one of them showed in a recent fanpost

then… disappeared.
I must be missing some big meal or something.
better make some pie.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Those Tats are Gritty!

I didn’t even think Skip could get any grittier.

by Mr. Wilson on Nov 24, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I saw that photo during ST.

His shitty tattoos kind of remind me of my husband’s shitty tattoos. But yeah, he is really, really fit. Low body-fat.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Nov 24, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps...

the best shape of his life?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

haha

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Nov 24, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

good lord

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Nov 24, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm. I may have revised my opinion of Skip's level of attractiveness.

"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog

"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009

by andi_k on Nov 24, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Oooooo... very nice.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Nov 26, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

See?

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Nov 26, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I've always liked Skip.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Nov 29, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

All that's going to do

is give us ideas for memes to revive…

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Nov 24, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

how about a meme cemetery?

engrave those tombstones – i forget who always posts those.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Nov 25, 2009 3:16 AM EST up reply actions  

moi aussi, mon petit cheux

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

speak American damnit!

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Nov 24, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

F*@% YEAH!

Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.

by BVHeck on Nov 24, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

J'ai la bitte du cheval.

just testing what i can get away with in a foreign language.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Nov 25, 2009 3:22 AM EST up reply actions  

yuck

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 6:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Ca c'est drole

or lolz, as it were

"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog

"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009

by andi_k on Nov 24, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

P.S. Please forgive poor construction; I'm fourteen years removed from seven years of French classes

"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog

"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009

by andi_k on Nov 24, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I was told there would be no math.

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Nov 24, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

No Piniero?

Didn’t he pitch in this era.

Great Hot Stove article although I have to admit this pre-dates my knolwedge of St. Louis baseball. Comiskey is the only recognizable name to me
So O’neill had two careers: baseball and politics. Quite an achievement

Just win

by The Duke on Nov 24, 2009 6:53 AM EST reply actions  

I'm waiting for Kanye.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 8:29 AM EST reply actions  

I'm waiting for Godot

but I was interrupted.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

was he the greatest of all time?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

OF ALL TIME!

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Yo Kanye meme, I’m really happy for you, and I’ma let you finish, but lolcats is one of the most outplayed memes of all time! OF ALL TIME!

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Huh...

17,000 people agree that my life is fucked

I want the Walrus back...

by Paulspike on Nov 24, 2009 8:40 AM EST reply actions  

they knew you were listening?

surely they were joking. If not, they are the ones who are f’d.

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 24, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Well...

they knew I was in the linking bedroom and that I was awake.. The rest, I am assuming..

I want the Walrus back...

by Paulspike on Nov 24, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Screaming flop

just looks like a career year on payday!

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Nov 24, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Cruz is great

but there’s no way the Rangers will move him. Also, we don’t have anything that would be as valuable in a trade, unless we give them Rasmus. Ken Rosenthal is talking out of his ass.

If Cruz isn’t playing in Arlington next year I will bear my ass in a shop window of Rosenthal’s choice.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Great?

Mo, you can trade anything of mine.

by njnick on Nov 24, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, depends on your definition, but he's pretty damn good.

He strikes out too much (~25% last 2 years) and his power is aided by Arlington, I’d guess (he had a 21.2% HR/FB rate in 2008 and 2009, which is well above average, and suggests he might’ve been a bit lucky with some shots clearing the fences, and it’d likely be somewhat lower in Busch), but his last two years have been remarkably good. Walkrate’s soared over 10% into the “good” category, his OBP is about .350, and he’s belted 40 HR in 640 PA.

He wasn’t especially lucky on balls in play, either – BABIP and thus BA were crazy high in 2008 in his 133 PAs, but in the larger sample size (2009) he had a BABIP of just .280 (which seems low for a guy like Cruz) in 462 PAs, which is below his career rate of .290. Even if his HR rate dips (which it will) as he gets less luck or moves to a larger stadium, you’d expect his BABIP to continue at its current level or even improve. His career hitting stats are .255/.321/.473 (.341 wOBA, which is above-average), and his stats the last couple of years are MUCH improved over 2006 and 2007. You’d assume the improvements will mostly remain, as he’s upped his walkrate, reduced his K rate and shown more power.

Bill James projects .284/.354/.541 next year, which seems a bit bullish to me but even if you downgrade those stats by 20 points of OBP and 40 points of SLG it’s still a great line.

Cruz is also a brilliant fielder. Most scouts seem to say this, and his UZR over 2400 innings in the corner outfield spots is better than +10 runs/season.

Over the last two years in basically about one full season of PAs he’s worth more than 5 WAR according to FanGraphs. Like I say, I expect him to fall back a bit, but he’s still better than any OF we have, IMO.

He’s pretty good.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Last time I checked stadium affects

Believe it or not Arlington actually is below average in HR’s. But their is big splits between Arlington and other parks in other offensive categories. Byrd had like a 150 point difference in OPS between home and away.

by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 24, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Nelson Cruzwick?

You may run like Hayes, but you hit like shit.

by flipthebird on Nov 24, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with everything you say.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I Dunno About Great...

….but I think he’d be a good Holliday substitution, if we cud land him.. Remember, though, he is 29, and only really had his first full season in the bigs, sort of a moore power/less hitting Ludwick. Still, depending on what they want he cud be a nice option.

:=8)

Big McLargehuge!
:=8O

by The MooCow on Nov 24, 2009 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it'd have to be Ludwick + prospects

or Rasmus. I think Texas are nearing win-now mode.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Im concerned about his age - thanks moocow

and his splits vs LHP and on the road. I worry about him away from Arlington.

Mo, you can trade anything of mine.

by njnick on Nov 24, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

his age shouldn't be a problem

we’d own him (as will texas) through his peak years. His splits are a little troubling, yes. Plus the fact that he hit a ton of HR with a high HR/FB rate in a tiny bandbox park. His HR rate would definitely drop in Busch, but he’d still be a very good player.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

but if you’d give up Rasmus (23 as I assume you know) then i think age is an issue. Plus, dont you think Cruz is due for a Ludwick like regression? Ludwick had a breakout/all star year at 29 and then the next year fell back into a good player but certainly not the potential “star” he was in 2008.

Mo, you can trade anything of mine.

by njnick on Nov 24, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Let me be clear

Im not saying that you said you WOULD trade Rasmus for him, just that you mentioned the Rangers may require Rasmus in a deal.

Mo, you can trade anything of mine.

by njnick on Nov 24, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Ludwick had an unlucky year beset by injury

I think his true ability lies somewhere between his 2008 and 2009 seasons. If Cruz remains healthy and doesn’t have drastically bad ball-in-play luck (as Ludwick did) I think he can repeat a similar year, albeit with a bit less power.

As you said, I wouldn’t give up Rasmus for Cruz. I think the two may have similar seasons next year but ras is younger, plays a more important defensive position (although Cruz probably could handle CF, given his corner abilities) and is cheaper for more years than Cruz, who I think already has 3 years service time.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

agree cruz is pretty darn good

and that there’s no reason for texas to trade him – they could be pretty tough.

and also that we of course don’t swap colby.

"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."

by cardball on Nov 25, 2009 3:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Since when is

“Teams are calling about ____________, who is low cost and just had a breakout season”, qualify as news? Of course teams are calling about him, he’s a very good corner outfielder who is cheap.

In related news, teams are calling the Cardinals about Albert Pujols and Colby Rasmus, the Nationals about Ryan Zimmerman and Stephen Strasburg, and the Rays about Evan Longoria and Ben Zobrist.

My interpretation of Ken Rosenthal’s morning before breakfast:

  1. Roll out of bed.
  2. Put on reading glasses.
  3. Pick up list of players who just had breakout seasons and are pre-arbitration.
  4. Pick up cell phone and put out a tweet saying said player’s front office is getting calls about him.
  5. Cross said player off list
  6. Profit!

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions   5 recs

+1

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

HAHA!

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Nov 24, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

OT: For anyone interested in prospect discussions

Goold unveiled the BA top 10 today in his BirdLand blog:

   1. Shelby Miller, RHP
   2. Jaime Garcia, LHP
   3. Lance Lynn, RHP
   4. Daryl Jones, OF
   5. David Freese, 3B
   6. Eduardo Sanchez, RHP
   7. Allen Craig, OF/1B/3B
   8. Blake Hawksworth, RHP
   9. Daniel Descalso, 2B
  10. Robert Stock, C

I wonder, is Hawksworth ranked as a starter, or reliever?

Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!

by timmycardinals on Nov 24, 2009 9:43 AM EST reply actions  

I like that list

I’d have Descalso higher (top 5) and Freese lower, and I’m not sure I have Sanchez in my top 10, but I can’t really argue with any of that.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

And Hawksworth not on the list.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah

I struggle to think who else I’d include, though. Henley for one. Maybe I bump Sanchez to 10 and Henley in for Hawk.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Reifer or Salas

would also deserve a mention on here, as both have been impressive at different levels.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

All four, in my mind, are more worthy of the top 10 than Hawksworth,

and I’m a Hawksworth fan, even if there is no reason to believer that he won’t come crashing back down to major-league earth next season, if he doesn’t start striking some more opposing batters out.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

DanUp should stop picking favorites

what’s his record?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Salas is kinda in no-man's land with his injuries

but I believe he’s a real talent, although I’d have him nearer the 15-20 range I think. I don’t really think Reifer is much of anything to be honest. His K/BB ratio was poor at high-A ball, he’s 24 before the next season starts, and his HR rate doesn’t look sustainable. I don’t think he will ever play in the majors.

That’s kinda the problem IMO with relievers as prospects – with the small sample sizes and the “specialist” role of the job, they’re more prone to peaks and troughs than other players, and seem to come and go with major regularity. Small sample sizes can capture excitement in minor league relievers much more so than any other player.

Plus, when they actually MAKE IT to the big leagues, they’re less valuable than other players. That’s why I’m not keen on Sanchez in the top 10 – he’s had a little over half a season of domination at AA, and, whilst I love his skillset and I think he could be legit, even if he doesn’t get injured (Salas) or stall as he gets moved up a level (Reifer, probably Mulligan, and yes I know these are very different players), the best we can realistically hope is that he turns into a major league player worth maybe 1 win per year over a replacement AAA arm in the bullpen.

I just don’t really like relievers as high ranked prospects for all those reasons. I wasn’t even sure about Chris Perez, about as can’t-miss as a bullpen arm gets, in the top 5 last year (though I think I did have him about 5, mind you).

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

If we're ranking in terms of talent and potential

which I think is all you can do with prospects, then Salas, Reifer, and Sanchez all have as much potential as anyone else in our system, it’s whether they’ll realize it is the question.

Our cupboard right now is pretty damn bare after the trades, graduating Colby, and Garcia, Salas, and DJ all having injury plagued seasons in which they didn’t play at all or struggled mightily while recovering.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I suppose

I just don’t see much in Reifer, at all. He’s not particularly young for his level, he’s not striking out a ton, he’s walking far too many. I guess he might prove me wrong, and I’ve never seen him so I can only judge his stuff based on scouting reports, but I’m just not getting excited about a 23-year old closer with a 2/1 K/BB ratio in A ball.

I think a guy who might be an average OF (say, Henley) is more valuable than a guy who has the same chance of being an average reliever.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I would guess he's ranked as a starter on that list

If he was a reliever he probably wouldn’t make the list.

As far as prospects go (i.e. no service time) I would move Craig up to #4 since he will have a shot to help the club next season. I guess I don’t really see how Freese is ranked ahead of him, since they are pretty much the same age and Freese will be coming off of an injury.

I looked at a list from FanGraphs’ Marc Hulet yesterday, and he has Lynn ranked ahead of both Miller and Garcia, which I found really interesting. I do think he’s been very impressive, but so was Brad Thompson at the minor league level, and I feel like Lynn may be on a similar career track. I’m guessing his qualifications are different, considering that Miller isn’t on his list I’m assuming he’s talking about players that may have an impact sometime in 2010, but that doesn’t explain why Kozma makes the cut, so I don’t want to speculate on what his qualifications are.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Miller

Hulet’s list did not include any 2009 draftees, which is why Miller wasn’t on his list. Still, I find it odd that Lynn is ranked ahead of Garcia.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I see the disclaimer at the top of the post now.

I don’t find it all that odd really — Lynn has been very, very good in his minor league seasons to date and Garcia is coming off of an injury. I just look at Brad Thompson’s minor league numbers and I think they look a lot like Lance Lynn’s minor league numbers. They may not be similar pitchers at all, but their numbers sure do look alike.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

That they do.

I don’t know enough about Lynn’s aresenal of pitches to compare him to Thompson, though.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Lynn's curve

is supposed to be much better than any breaking pitch that PK has to offer, and he does throw a little bit harder, but I wouldn’t suggest the 4 mph number that Flim threw out there. He’s generally in the 88-92 range, while PK is around the 86-90 range or so. He keeps the ball down and throws a sinker so I think they are very comparable.

Thompson walked a lot fewer hitters in the minors than Lynn has as well, but I think the Lynn has better strikeout potential due to better offspeed pitches than Thompson does. That said, I think he’ll have to get his walks down below 2 per 9 innings (while maintaining a 6.5+ K/9) to be an effective starter at the big league level.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Off-Speed Offerings

I also think that having a good breaking ball makes the sinker a more effective pitch. Thompson basically had no means of striking anyone out. If Lynn has a good curveball to keep hitters guessing and to maintain a decent K/9 rate, then he ought to be able to stick as a middle-of-the-rotation starter. Something that Thompson was unable to do.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know for sure that it is

but if he HAD a curveball it would probably be better than Thompson’s.

I’ve not seen Lance Lynn pitch, so I’m going off of the scouting reports that I’ve read on him from Future Redbirds, Sickels, BA and so on.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I gotta check his milk carton...

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

So, is Lynn a Joe Blanton type?

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it just me

or does he look like a certain flat billed hat wearing pitcher from the past?

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Nov 24, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

i like my pitchers like i like my women

thick and loose…

Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...

by nomar34 on Nov 24, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Lance Lynn: Subscriber to Body By Joba

You may run like Hayes, but you hit like shit.

by flipthebird on Nov 24, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

"I'm already ranked #1, how can I improve from there?"

“Did you see that Lincecum chick? She’s hot.”

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

The Man vs. The Mang

To me, the most telling stat about The Man is that when he retired, he had recorded the most extra base hits of any player in history: more than Ruth, more than the Splendid Splinter, more than Cobb, Speaker, all of them. Willie Mays didn’t catch him.

In fact, he’s still third on the list, behind only Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds. Here’s the top 7:

Aaron 1477
Bonds 1440
Musial 1377
Ruth 1356
Mays 1327
Cobb 1136
Speaker 1131

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 24, 2009 10:21 AM EST reply actions  

Musial's greatness is underappreciated.

Unfortunately, he doesn’t have a house that he built.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

It's on Mardel. He rented, though.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Nov 24, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Neither do Aaron or Bonds though

I think he’s under-appreciated because he played for the Cardinals and he really didn’t do anything that sticks in the minds of a casual baseball historian that isn’t a Cardinals fan.

Had he played for the Yankees or the Giants he’d be in every conversation about the great players of all time because he would have gotten more coverage in the media and he’d be talked about more. He’s a far better player than DiMaggio was, yet Joe D played for the Yanks, married Marilyn Monroe, and had a 56 game hitting streak.

There really isn’t anything remotely memorable about Stan Musial from a casual fan perspective (except for being one hell of a nice guy, and his harmonica introduction at Ozzie’s HOF Induction ceremony). He never had a great hitting streak, he never hit 40 homers, he never hit close to .400, and he never owned any of the big career records. People don’t remember you for leading the league in doubles 8 times, in triples 5 times, and in hits 6 times. They remember you for breaking records, and the only significant one he ever broke was the XBH (and Total Bases) that was mentioned above.

I think that if Hank Aaron had only hit 700 homers he wouldn’t be revered much either, it’s because of his record of 755 that he’s always gotten significant appeal from the casual fan even though he’s in the top 10 in most other offensive categories and was an exceptional defensive player for most of his career.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that Aaron is underrated, too.

He was the home run king, and is a household name because of that, but this guy was a great all-around player. Both Aaron and Musial would be perceived much differently if they had played in NYC.

And Bonds does have the New Candlestick (whatever its corporate name is these days). By and large, I think his play is pretty responsible for that park getting built.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."

--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS

by bgh on Nov 24, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I Totally agree.

If you eliminate all of his home runs, the Hammer would still have over 3000 hits. And he still holds the record for most RBI’s despite being on some crappy teams. And he has the most total bases, right ahead of The Man.

by Mr. Wilson on Nov 24, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Love the historical perspective

Call me old-fashioned, and as much as I love the “current game”, it still fascinates me to read about the game of baseball and our Cardinals’ forerunners from nearly 130 years ago.

Thanks DanUp. Keep ’em coming.

by cards&broncos on Nov 24, 2009 11:10 AM EST reply actions  

Tip O'Neill had a decent run

After he hung up the cleats.

"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick

by RiverRat on Nov 24, 2009 11:16 AM EST reply actions  

we should have some boog and clobby today.

http://stltoday.mycapture.com/PHOTOS/STLT/697101/22403888E.jpg

watch out, Colby’s smiling.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:26 AM EST reply actions  

I was there that day

Colby had just gone deep off of Adam Ottavino right before this picture was taken. I think I actually have a shot that is similar to this somewhere in the hundred or so photos I took at spring training.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

nice

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

My favorite picture ever!

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Nov 24, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, I was having Boog withdrawal

"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog

"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009

by andi_k on Nov 24, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

*sad trombone sound*

wahh
wahh
wahh
waaaaaah

"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog

"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009

by andi_k on Nov 24, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

here goes nothing

Well, for those of you who have been following the saga of my hard drive crash (don’t kid yourselves, you know you have), my recovery disc arrived moments ago and I am now beginning the process of reinstalling. Keep your fingers crossed that all of my files are safe and sound in my backup HD!

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 24, 2009 11:26 AM EST reply actions  

The Empire Strikes Back

was the best of the three.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Nov 24, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, an answer man...

truly questions are more interesting.

Also, Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls… far superior to Pet Detective or Ace Jr.

MB for LF in 2010!

by guayzimi on Nov 24, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

wtf is Ace Jr.?

Was there a third movie? If there was, I vote we pretend it never happened.

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Was that the cartoon?

Cause I don’t remember a 3rd movie either.

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Nov 24, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Made fo TV

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0844029/

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 25, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

That's far from a unanimous conclusion.

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought everyone knew

that Empire was the best?

"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick

by RiverRat on Nov 24, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Jedi my friend

best Star Wars movie ever!

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

RR: See?

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You liked the ewoks didn't you.

"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick

by RiverRat on Nov 24, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

there was less incest in Jedi, though.

[will probably live to regret this comment]

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

And less Death Star in Empire.

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually I do

And I like the Ewoks movies, but that isn’t why I liked Jedi. I have always been a fan of hero’s rising above and being able to overcome anything in their path. Empire was just the establishment of the problem’s that Luke had to overcome and while that was instrumental in making Jedi so good it just doesn’t stand alone to me. Would Empire be so good if it wasn’t for Jedi following it up? And would Jedi be good without the basis of Empire? Its like Jedi is Pujols and Empire is that good 2nd place hitter who can get on in front of him ;)

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Everyone of a certain age knows that.

"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog

"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009

by andi_k on Nov 24, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

How dare you invoke The Holy Trilogy?

What’s a nubian?

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Nov 24, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I've been waiting all day for someone to mention The Godfather trilogy.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, the exception that proves the rule, perhaps?

The second was certainly better than the third, and I say that as a Godfather III apologist.

Though, to be fair, I watched the third one on my own, and nobody told me anything about it in advance. And I liked it, not as much as the others obv., but I didn’t think it was bad at all.

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

updates. . .to keep you on the edge of your seat

Recovery went smooth. . . now its auto installing, starting up, shutting down. Still too early to tell on the backed up files

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 24, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Final update: I'M BACK!

and so ends this twisted saga. For those of you who like a happy ending, all is well. The new HD is great, the backed up files are on the backup HD, and everything appears to be fine.

Possible spinoffs include: how to restore the backed up files to the primary HD and trying to get my microsoft office back even though I don’t think I have a product key saved anywhere.

/cue ominous sounding music

Thanks to everyone who helped me wade through this: flim, tom, spants, prophetjohn, and anyone else who has helped me, thanks again!

"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum

by scoot on Nov 24, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Everyone read this

http://www.3-dbaseball.net/2009/11/pitching-to-contact-and-fip.html

For those who say that FIP overvalues the strikeout, you need to read this.

DO IT!

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:02 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

This article is awesome.

One thing: Can I ask you a question about his math?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

What exactly do you do to modify the league average pitcher's ERA to account for team defense?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

You have to modify the formula

The formula for FIP is the value of the Three True Outcomes – the value of a ball in play *9. So…

HR: 1.40
BB: .30
SO: -.27
BIP -.04

FIP = ((1.4 – .04)9)HR + ((.3-.04)9)BB – ((-.27-.04)9)SO

To adjust it for defense, you have to calculate the expected out value of a ball in play given a certain quality of defense, subtract that number from the -.04, and use that in the formula above.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Gah, SBN stripped out numbers in the comment

It should be this:

FIP = ((1.4 – .04)*9)*HR + ((.3-.04)*9)*BB – ((-.27-.04)*9)*SO

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I didnt see stripped numbers

what I saw was bolded 9s, i think everything betwee *’s must turn to bold

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

From the formatting guide

at the bottom of the page:

Bold phrase (* )Bold phrase( *)

parenthesis are mine.

"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick

by RiverRat on Nov 24, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I'm asking something more specific but not wording it correctly.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes...

For instance, he used the mariners defense. In his article he does this:

The league average ERA this year was 4.32, but we know that that won’t be the case given a +85 run defense. A league average pitcher, given +85 defense, will have about a 3.84 ERA. Using that figure, we can recalculate our constant for FIP and calculate a new number that is an estimate of actual ERA, not of ERA minus defensive support. This means that we would expect our 2.79 FIP pitcher to have an actual ERA of about 2.31.

What happened during the bolded section?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

You asked about ERA

but the article was about FIP, do you want to know how to modify the league ERA to come up with basically a league FIP?

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I get what you are saying.

If you have a team that’s +80 runs by UZR in 1458 innings, and a league average pitcher who pitches 200 innings for that team, you would expect him to give up 11 less runs than the average pitcher.

So if a 4.40 ERA pitcher pitches 200 innings, he gives up 97 runs. If you subtract 11, you get 86. 86 runs in 200 innings is a 3.87 ERA.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh shit.

That’s easier than I was expecting.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that might just be short cut

You probably have to adjust the expects outs also, but that’s a bitch.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

Here’s an emo girl instead:

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Great article

That clears up a lot in less than 2000 words!

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Y'know. . .

I have to think pretty hard about this article and the statistical implications, but my initial impression is that “defense-adjusted FIP” is less predictive than regular FIP, or even xFIP. It seems to me that the adjustments introduce a bunch of noise without adding much in the way of granularity.

For starters, here are the two concepts that I have trouble with:

“This defense was worth 85 runs above average, or roughly .02 runs per BIP. An average BIP is worth -.04 runs, so an average BIP pitching in front of this defense is worth -.06 runs (remember that lower is better for the defense).”

How so? First of all, I’m uncertain about how RAA are calculated with respect to defense, but I strongly suspect that they are not calculated with the benefit component batted ball / strikeout data. To put it another way, is RAA calculated as if the defense in question was facing a league-average mix of strikeouts and batted balls? And regardless of that fact, the “average BIP pitching in front of this defense” would depend in part on how many BIPs this defense faces, which would of course depend on the pitcher. Circular, no?

“The league average ERA this year was 4.32, but we know that that won’t be the case given a +85 run defense. A league average pitcher, given +85 defense, will have about a 3.84 ERA.”

Does the “average pitcher” mean a pitcher who gives up the league-average mix of batted balls and strikeouts? Or does “average pitcher” mean, as I suspect, some mythical figure that is based solely on the league’s run scoring environment?

Those are my initial impressions about the problems with how well defense-adjusted FIP operates as a predictive stat. Don’t even get me started about the problems it faces as a stat that accurately measures historical value, given my prejudice for actual results rather than “should have been in a neutral environment” results. IMHO the Cy should measure “results” and not “skill” or “talent”. Otherwise, why don’t we just come up with a stat based on a mix of LD% and HR/FB (or ISO) in order to determine who should be the MVP?

by SouthsideCardsFan on Nov 24, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Calling all saber geeks! Bird Land commenters need your help!

In his latest blog post DG reviews a bunch of acronym soup and finds that AP is still #1 even based on those numbers and as such there is no statisitical arguement against him winning the MVP. Several of the commenters though are still not fully understanding the concept of Saber stats. Specifically how replacement level is determined. If I was even half as knowledgable as VEP on some of these things I would correct them myself, but I would rather not confuse the poor people.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 1:19 PM EST reply actions  

Replacement level is determined historically

I’m not exactly sure how though.

It doesn’t matter either way. If you compare Pujols to average or replacement level his proportional value above the league remains the same.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand that

but someone asked i Pujols coming up mid season in 01 instead of starting the season would “skew” replacement level for that year, which is not how replacement level is formed, I just don’t know the real answer.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was determined to be two wins below average production

In fact I think it has to be otherwise we couldn’t say that two wins above replacement level = average. Average production must vary, year on year.

Bah. I’m too tired to actually think this through. Shitty day. Disregard.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 24, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Replacement level is part of average...

I also don’t know how it’s calculated, but this seems like the cart before the horse. Let me go look this up for real.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Check TangoTiger.com

I think he has a section on replacement level there. There is also something at THT I think.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, it's two wins below average

I guess people are having trouble understanding where than number comes from.

by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

enjoying the Pujols highlights on WWL

not enjoying anything else on WWL.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 1:37 PM EST reply actions  

this just in, Keith Law has no idea

Had Law left Vazquez off his ballot, the righthander would not have received a bonus. One vote made Vazquez money — not a gob of money compared to the rest of his contract, but a good stack of nickels by any measure. When I mentioned this to Law yesterday he was taken aback. "I had no idea," he said.

(this was not just in, and that was Goold doin’ what he does best)

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 1:48 PM EST reply actions  

Against Amaury Marti?

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Bill Brasky was a Son-of-a-bitch.

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you guys talking about Bill Brasky?

I know him!

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

that's Dreamy.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

you know what sucks?

i should hate that dude, like really really hate him. but i can’t. i just can’t hate him. i just sit in the corner & give him the good old golf clap & shake my head

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Nov 24, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Why would you hate him?

He doesn’t play for the Cubs, Astros, or Mets, and his last name isn’t Denkinger.

This is how I judge my hate of baseball people, by the way.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

i mean he does things i can only dream about, and not just on the diamond

and maybe hates way too strong of a word here. but jealously doesn’t seem strong enough. i know this is cliche, but he’s got it all figured out. he’s an amazing player, women literally throw themselves at him. he’s got the world at his fingertips. and he’s still a kid. here i am and old fart struggling just to keep my head above water. i should be very jealous & envious of him but i’m not. God bless him i hope he keeps this up for another 15 seasons. he seems like a really solid & cool dude with a good head on his shoulders.

so i can’t hate. i can only congratulate. and wonder how it all went so horribly wrong for myself & keep trying to fix it.

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Nov 24, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

he lives in minnesota.

i hear they cull their herds.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the cow might have more problems with this

than gdm would….

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

the ones that escape the cull

the winter gets ’em

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe Mauer

is one of the lucky ones

what happens to him when he strikes out… we’ll never know. we’re not one of them.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

they what their who now?

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Nov 24, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

To cull means to discard undesirable or unproductive animals.

A herd is a group of animals usually reserved for cattle, buffalo, deer and such.

the last part was for smart ass humor.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 24, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry I shoulda picked up on it.

You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.

by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 25, 2009 2:50 AM EST up reply actions  

aww, buck up little camper

November can get a person down.

"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog

"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009

by andi_k on Nov 24, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

i hate the holidays, they are hell for me

and this damn woman won’t stop playing mind games with me. i need a vacation from reality in the worst way.

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I recommend crack.

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 25, 2009 6:17 AM EST up reply actions  

He should grow a mustache.

Take a vacation… from yourself.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Nov 25, 2009 7:13 AM EST up reply actions  

ha, maybe i should shave then

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't like them either (holidays or mind games)

I prescribe music—less risky than crack.

Do you like Interpol? You sound like you’re in an Interpol mood. They’re always on my November playlist. Try listening to PDA and Say Hello To the Angels very, very loudly while thinking “fuck off, you horrible bitch.” It’ll either cure ya or kill ya. You don’t deserve that, so don’t let her do it..

"She gone! Airplane time! Airplane Time!! AIRPLANE TIME." Boog

"I think those scorers must be from Mars or Venus. Or maybe they're just from that book." --Mike Shannon, 7/09/2009

by andi_k on Nov 25, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

i'll check those out later andi

thanks

the holiday season is very, very hard for all of us. dad died two weeks before xmas two years ago & that’s part of it. but there is also a lot of other crap that’s happened over the years that just make this time of year pretty much unbearable. i really wish i could just go to an island out in the pacific from now till march so i wouldn’t have to deal with this. everyone is so happy & joyful & has all these great times & memories, and i just don’t have that. i’m no fun to be around & i apologize in advance to everyone if i do or say something offensive over the next two months. i should probably just take some time off so i can avoid doing that.

so if you don’t see old gdm around don’t worry, he’s still in the basement surrounded by the three B’s. he’s just trying to spare you all from his misery.

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels

by gdm426 on Nov 25, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember watching Jeff Clement (Pirates C/1B)

play in high school and I think I saw him swing and miss 3 or 4 times in the span of his 4 year career. He’s probably the best high school player that I’ve ever seen play.

Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.

by fourstick on Nov 24, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Unanimous!

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Nov 24, 2009 2:01 PM EST reply actions  

Albert has it

do we say Arrrrrr now?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:01 PM EST reply actions  

I ruined it

f’in Y2.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Unanimous MVP

Done. RIght.

"He ran hard, but he didn't run fast. He runs like he's mad at the ground." - opposing broadcaster describing Yadi's speed.

by TNTinCO on Nov 24, 2009 2:02 PM EST reply actions  

MVP

Pujols
HRam
Howard
Fielder
Tulo
Ethier
Sandoval
Utley
D Lee
Kemp

bbwaa.com

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

fix the link

http://bbwaa.com/

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Carp, Waino, Holliday, and Yadi got votes too.

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Just posted that too

I was trying to get the top 10 list up quick

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Carp finished ahead of Waino

25 – 16. if he’d just had a few more 6th place votes, we wouldn’t even be talking about it.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Holliday was 1 pt behind Waino

Carp luggaged it down, I’m sure.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

14-16, 23

Carp, Waino, Holliday, Molina (1 8th place vote)

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Who gave Han-Ram a 9th place vote?!?!?!

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Someone who is obviously

anti good ball player

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Nov 24, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The same person that gave Utley a 10th?

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Or the 14 voters that didn't put Chase on there at all

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Nov 24, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

perhaps Fredbird can lend the Phanatic the van

and put them in the middle of the Bank and… see what happens.

That is, if Phillies fans know who Chase Utley is.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

D-Lee gotta 2nd place vote??? Really?

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

cubs.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

suck.

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that seemed odd.

Also kind of surprising that Carp and Waino both got more points than Lincecum.

by BTown Birds fan on Nov 24, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

MFers.

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Utley got 0 2nd place votes, but Howard got 6...

As great as it has been to see the BBWAA get the top guy right for each award, there are a lot of bad votes out there still.

Ryan Zimmerman: 4th in WAR, 4th to last in MVP voting (1 point ahead of Jeremy Affeldt).

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Zimmerman at least got 2 votes

Yadi only got 1 yet finishes ahead of Zimmerman. Ballots are screwed up.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

wow, what *does* Chase Utley have to do to get any respect

maybe it’s the hair gel.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

He can sing, too!

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

IIIIIIIIIIIIII

AM A MA-HAN

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Nov 24, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

of constant sorrrrow

Sponsored by Slick-Rick 'Stache Cream

by The_teague on Nov 25, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

because my te-eee-eee-eam

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Nov 26, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

you should finish this and fanpost

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 27, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yadi got respect :)

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

one 8th place vote! woohoo!

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW, the unanimous decision puts Mang at 5th all-time in MVP shares

according to Baseball Reference. (They don’t have it updated yet, but even I can do that math.) He’s behind only Bonds, The Man, Ted Williams and Willie Mays; just ahead of Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio. He’s also

ridiculous.

by BTown Birds fan on Nov 24, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

So Waino has more Cy shares than

Mulder, Hudson, Prior, Oswalt, and even Matty Mo, man it is awesome to watch one of the best young pitchers on the same team as the best player in baseball.

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Musial won 3

so must have been a long time ago

"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."

by StLHugo on Nov 24, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Lou Gehrig also won two, so it would have to have been before the 30s.

But Babe Ruth only won one, and looking at the voting patterns for those two it looks like you’re probably right – I’d guess that before 1931 you weren’t eligible after you’d already won. For both Ruth and Gehrig, they won one in the 1920s then had several years with incredible seasons (including Ruth’s 60 HR season in 1927) but no votes. Then they both start getting votes again in 1931, and Gehrig won it again in 1936.

Looking at Ruth’s numbers from 1924-1931, who knows how many MVP shares he’d have if he’d been eligible (assuming you’re right about the one win rule). He was first in OPS+ every year from 1918 to 1931 (and for several of those years Gehrig was right behind him).

by BTown Birds fan on Nov 24, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Now with extra feisty!

by spants on Nov 24, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Also....why are there only 28 voters for AL MVP and 32 for NL MVP?

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:16 PM EST reply actions  

More NL teams.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, didn't know that.

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Number of teams in league x 2 ???

"The Cards lead this game tied 1-1." -Mike Shannon

by ducttape16 on Nov 24, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm pleased pujols won unanimously.

I’m sad for chase utley who got shut out of the top five. Nobody but pujols and maybe hanley – maybe – deserved the mvp more than chase. Not howard, fielder, or tulo.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on Nov 24, 2009 2:26 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

perhaps he needs to change his name.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Lead Utley?

Note: Above comment may contain gratuitous amounts of sarcasm.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS

by vexedtechie on Nov 24, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

To Bryan Howard.

Also ignored: Zimmerman and Adrian Gonzalez.

Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort

by Cardinals645 on Nov 24, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm still pulling for Chase Subestimado.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Nov 24, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Pujols is still underrated if you ask me.

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Nov 24, 2009 2:28 PM EST reply actions  

someone call Brendan Ryan

Scroll down to The Most Important Thing Any Mammal Has Ever Done

I’m trying to gauge how many people would be interested in buying one of these Beavers undershirts if we could get a manufacturer to produce a small quantity of them.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:33 PM EST reply actions  

that would be good in the stadium...

maybe paired with a Redbirds Stache t-shirt. I’m no expert, of course.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

wow, unanimous

congrats, duder

Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.

by prophetjohn on Nov 24, 2009 2:56 PM EST reply actions  

when I search for "adam wainwright win 2006"

VEB yields a chipmunk and a spoonful of grits on the third page.

On page five, there’s the first unicorn.

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 3:04 PM EST reply actions  

I got a unicorn on page 3,

but I’m at work, so google is on safe….

"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick

by RiverRat on Nov 24, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

the "unsafe" pics of Adam

are not that unsafe.

oh, except for the clown. did you get the clown?

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

page five also has:

"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT

by Yadi2Second on Nov 24, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think that pic means what you think it means

"Ryan Howard hit behind Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley. If Albert Pujols hit behind Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley, he would have had 493 RBI. Do the math. It checks out." - FJM

by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Nov 24, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

no clowns....

but that;s not surprising as clowns are not safe,

"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick

by RiverRat on Nov 24, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

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