The Cy Young stats
So the NL Cy Young award recipient was announced the other day, and surprisingly, it didn't go to the guy with the most wins, or the best ERA for that matter. Instead, it went to Tim Lincecum, who lead the league in FanGraphs WAR by a pretty big margin.
Naturally, given the two candidates that he narrowly beat, this sparked a lot of debate about whether or not FanGraphs' WAR was the best way to go. From what I gathered, a lot of people thought that timing should be taken into account, and in the case of Carpenter, "pitching to your defense". There were even some rogue mentions of wins and pitching to the score.
Unfortunately, I don't know the right stat to figure out the Cy Young award winner. That's because each person has a different interpretation of what it means to be the Cy Young. What I can do is lay out all of the major stats so that you can make the most informed decision about how you want the Cy Young to be decided.
FIP
As you may or may not have heard, FIP has had a lot of popularity around the blogs as a way to evaluate pitchers. The reason is likely for it's simplicity, which makes the stat easy to calculate and relatively void of "noise" (I'll expand on that later). FIP breaks down each at bat into 4 possible outcomes: a walk, a strikeout, a home run and a ball in play. FIP assumes that pitchers have 100% control over what happens after the first three (99% of the time, a walk, strikeout or home run results in that), and they they have 0% control about what happens after when a ball is put in play.
The league average hit rate for balls in play is .300, and FIP assumes that will be the case for all pitchers, and that is the controversy with FIP. It's clear that some pitchers have more control over batting average on balls in play (BABIP) than others. Guys who get a bunch of ground balls and pop ups will have a lower BABIP. However, BABIP is inlfuenced by luck and defense much more than actual skill, so a lot of people like to ignore it when evaluating pitchers.
FIP also takes timing out of the equation, because it uses aggregate stats. If one pitcher does much better with runners on base than another, but his overall stats are the same, FIP will rate the two equally. If I could describe FIP in one sentence, it would be... how many runs per 9 innings a pitcher would have given up given neutral timing, and assuming an average distribution of balls in play. That doesn't mean it's better or worse than any other stat. It is what it is. If you think that BABIP and timing are just luck (which they really are for the most part) and shouldn't be credited towards the pitcher, this is the stat for you.
xFIP
This stat is the same thing as FIP, expect it substitutes HR's for .11*FB's. The reason for this? Well, it's been shown that the rate of fly balls that go for home runs (HR/FB ratio), is largely out of a pitchers control. Like BABIP, there is some skill involved in HR/FB ratio; however, it is dwarfed by the amount of luck involved in it. So xFIP strips away all the skill and luck, and simply assumes that the pitcher has 0% control over HR/FB ratio.
tRA
This stat is like FIP on speed. In addition to considering walks, strikeouts and home runs - it also considers the quality of balls put in play, by using the 4 batted ball classifications: line drives, ground balls, outfield fly balls and pop ups. While on the surface, that seems like a good thing because it gives more credit to pitchers for their ability to control BABIP, it also adds a lot more noise due to the subjective nature of batted ball classifations.
Unlike strikeouts, walks and home runs, batted ball stats can vary based on the source of the data. There are 3 main sources of batted ball data: BIS, STATS and Gameday. The first two are available for pay, while Gameday is freely available to everyone. Each of those sources gets batted ball data from stringers, who are typically paid about 10 dollars per game to watch each batted ball and classify it. BIS and STATS used to have their stringers record the data at the ballparks; however, I believe that they all do it from the TV now.
Anyway, you can see how that would be a problem. A soft liner dropping just in front of Colby Rasmus could easily be classified as a fly ball or a line drive depending on the source. Given the huge difference in terms of value between a fly ball and a line drive in tRA, the batted ball classifications can have a big impact.
In fact, given that we have tRA avaiable on two websites, StatCorner and FanGraphs, that each use different batted ball sources, Gameday and BIS respectively, there are large discrepancies in the tRA numbers for the same pitcher. For example, her are the tRA's by Statcorner and FanGraphs for each of the 5 major Cy Young candidates in the NL this year:
| StatCorner tRA | FanGraphs tRA | |
| Tim Lincecum | 2.52 | 2.83 |
| Javier Vazquez | 3.19 | 3.67 |
| Dan Haren | 3.25 | 4.12 |
| Chris Carpenter | 2.77 | 3.02 |
| A.D.A.M. | 3.47 | 3.56 |
As you can see, the difference in tRA is huge for some pitchers just based on the source of the batted ball data. So while tRA adds a lot more usefull information about a pitcher, it also adds a lot of noise that can obfuscate the pitchers actual performance.
ERA
I think we all know about this one. This assumes that the pitcher has 100% control over everything that happens (except, for errors). While this is the final results of how effective the pitcher has been, it also includes way to much things that are out of a pitchers control, like defense, HR/FB ratio, BABIP and timing. So while FIP, xFIP and tRA perhaps takes out too many factors that the pitcher has some control over, ERA takes out way too few.
WAR
WAR is simply a way to combine production with innings pitched to get an estimate of how many wins a player contributes to an average team over a replacement level player. When I say 'production', mean the estimate of how good the pitcher was when he pitched. This can be estimated using any of the 4 metrics I outlined above: tRA, FIP, xFIP or ERA, which should be adjusted for park, and if you want, quality of batters faced. WAR turns that number into an expected W% using a PythagenPat run estimator, subtracts that by the expected W% of a replacement level pitcher, and multiplies that by innings per 9.
You can see more about how WAR is calculated here:
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_to_calculate_war/
For those who care, the closed form equation for figuring out WAR is:
WAR =((((B/A)^((A+B)^0.275))/(((B/A)^((A+B)^0.275))+1))-0.39)*C/9
Where:
A = the pitcher's run or earned run average using one of the estimates above
B = the leaugue run or earned run average
C = innings pitched
So when you hear people say WAR, don't assume that they are talking about the FanGraphs version of it. WAR can be calculated many different ways, using different park factors, run estimators, defensive adjustment and quality of opponent adjustments. In my opinion, a well calibrated WAR calculation is the best possible way to combine production and playing time to get an estimate of a players value above his potential replacement. The only thing it doesn't take into account is "pitching to the score". If you believe that certain pitchers have control over when they give up their runs, and pitch given the game context, you might not like WAR so much.
WPA
WPA has a pretty simple defition. It measures total improvement in the odds of winning a game for each player. By that I mean, it measures how each player contributes to an average teams odds of winning the game, and sums up the results for each player. So for example, based off of empirical data, you can see that with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th, with a runner on first base and the home team down by a run, an average team will win roughly 8.7% of the time.
Albert Pujols' big badass self walks to the plate and promptly hits a 484 foot home run. Now, in the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs and the home team up by a run, the home team surprisingly wins the game 100% of the time. So Pujols' WPA will be .913, or he improved the odds of his team winning the game by 91.3%.
The concept of WPA sounds great, it rewards each event based on the value it has depending on the context of each game. Even if you don't believe that situational hitting is a skill, you have to admit that it has value. However, there are numerous problems with WPA when it comes to evaluating performance:
1) It doesn't include adjustments for park
2) It gives full credit to pitchers for the contributions of their defenders
3) It doesn't give credit to pitchers for innings pitched
That last point is often overlooked when talking about WPA. WPA is the change in win probability for an average team. So if you assume that each player is taking the spot of a replacement level player, you have to include that adjustment in WPA. So a guy who puts up a 5.00 WPA in 50 innings isn't necessarily more valuable than a guy who puts up a 2.00 WPA in 200 innings, because his replacement in those 150 innings will have a negative WPA.
Wins
These are like WPA, except it also gives the pitcher full credit for how many runs his team scores, how long his manager let's him stay in the game and how well the relievers that pitcher after him perform. Really, there is nothing that wins add to the discussion, and they add a whole bunch of factors that obscure the pitchers actual performance.
Summing it up
Hopefully, I've presented the pro's and con's of each of these stats in an easy to understand way. If you've followed along, you'll notice that each of these stats has a certain give and take to them. I can't stress this enough. The simplest stats like FIP and xFIP don't tell as much about a pitchers performance as stats like tRA and WPA, however, they also are a lot cleaner and don't tell you a lot about stuff that is out of the pitchers control. The more information you add, the more noise and superfluous and obfuscating data you add.
It's up to you to choose the best possible combination based on your preferences of how we should value a pitchers performance. What you can't do, is pick who you want to win the award first, and then choose the stat - that's just being a dick.
10 recs |
619 comments
Comments
i thought about
selecting wins just to be funny and get a little chuckle out of myself, but this explanation (i’m still somewhat of a sabernoob) was so well put together that it would have been insulting to VEP to do so. i hope everyone sees it in this light as well. so, thank you VEP, and keep up the good work.
/antifist
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
by BVHeck on Nov 22, 2009 6:51 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Hopefully
that’s what everyone did that voted for wins. When the other stats tell so much about the pitcher skills, rather than just the team’s, it would be almost impossible to vote for wins. But I guess everyone has a different view…
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
by wizardofozzie on Nov 22, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for wins
in the end, it’s wins that count!
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 23, 2009 8:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say either FIP WAR or tRA WAR
I voted tRA but the batted ball discrepancies between SC and FG are a little troubling, if “troubling” isn’t too dramatic a word for this discussion. I wouldn’t even consider xFIP, much less xFIP WAR, for filling out a ballot. It’s terrific for projecting future performance and true talent levels but I think for awards voting the only consideration should be what actually happened. WPA has too many issues to be considered also.
by James Kannengieser on Nov 22, 2009 9:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think I agree with this.
I usually prefer xFIP for projection, but I’m not sure I like it for judging the value of stats already accrued.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
VEP using his powers for good.
Thanks for explaining things in a way even a PE teacher can understand.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
by Tackle Box on Nov 22, 2009 10:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
ditto
....my quick smells like french toast...
by mstreeter06 on Nov 22, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it hits a little too close to home for my taste
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about "all of the above"?
Well, maybe except “wins.”
I do this kind of analysis (in decidedly non-baseball settings) for a living, and a pretty good rule of thumb is that if you have multiple “reasonable” analytical approaches to something, and they all give you the same answer, that answer is probably right — not always by any means, but more often than not. If their answers differ significantly, then either there is no clear answer or your analysis is flawed. In that case it is a good idea to look at what you’re missing with the analysis.
Honestly, I have no idea what’s being “missed” when looking at Carp, WW and Seabiscuit, and quite possibly the answer is “nothing.” The three performances look to me to be of so nearly equal value that choosing among them is a matter of taste. I would have voted 1. WW, 2. Tim, 3. Carp if I’d had a vote, because my “taste” runs toward favoring the guy who throws the most innings — one reason being that pitchers who eat innings have beneficial effects on the rest of the staff that don’t necessarily show up in the performance measures. But I don’t think any arrangement of those three is wrong.
Running Haren or Vazquez in for any of them, now … that’s a craniorectal insertion.
by StanTheManFan on Nov 22, 2009 10:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Haren and Vazquez finished in the top 3 in FIP WAR
I agree that you should use multiple stats to pick the winner (especially because all of these have flaws), but if you are weighing FIP WAR a lot more heavily that anything else, you’ll end up with Vazquez and Haren.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand the shift away from “wins.” It makes intuitive sense. But I thought I’d just mention, that if Lincecum (15 wins) had been Wainwright (19 wins), the Giants would have been in the playoffs this year. They trailed the Rockies by 4.
by MissesJBuck on Nov 22, 2009 10:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
if Lincecum (15 wins) had been Wainwright (19 wins), the Giants would have been in the playoffs this year. They trailed the Rockies by 4.
if lincecum had been A.D.A.M. with A.D.A.M.’s run support, the giants would have been in the playoffs. thats the problem with wins as a stat beyond its use as a team stat.
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
by BVHeck on Nov 22, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but so many non-cardinal baseball fans
have claimed to me that if lincecum pitched for the cards he’d’ve won 25 games. i think that’s going way overboard in the anti-wins-as-viable-stat department. truth is, he likely would have had the same record as he did in SF if we insert him into carp’s spot, since they received similar run support – per UZR lincecum had a better defense behind him whereas carp’s team had a slightly better team win %, so i cancelled those out.
if we look at pitcher win % in context to team win % all the candidates exceeded their team win %, as expected. there were no 1972 steve carltons, who won 27 of the phils 59, his win % exceeding the teams by .352 (he also had 30 CG’s and a sub-2 era). But, anyway, here’s how they ordered: greinke/king felix +.266, carp +.248, verlander/haren +.151, waino +.142, lincecum +.139, sabathia/vasquez +.068.
i’m not claiming any significance in any statistical sense, but think it has some meaning – as opposed to wins. curiously, my own subjective list of best pitchers 2009 could follow that order pretty closely with the exception of timmy, who i place right behind carp.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's definitely some interesting information.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but think it has some meaning
it does. just no meaning about the individual pitchers
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think someone more savvy and inclined
than myself could conjure something up, prophetjohn. all i have is an inchoate idea.
also, even wins have some meaning, win percentage has more (imo), and this differential business might reflect significantly more than either about the individual pitchers. (of course, that still might not amount to much.)
btw, an oversight: accounting for all the vote-getters, halladay slots in after carp at +.167.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 23, 2009 5:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=290904123
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
B Moss tripled to right, R Doumit and A LaRoche scored, B Moss scored on throwing error by second baseman S Schumaker.
I love the ER stat.
by Evilfrog on Nov 22, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff VeP
Do you have the numbers for all 5 players in all available FIP WAR, xFIP WAR, tRA WAR, ERA WAR, WPA, and Wins? (I can probably find them, but 1) I don’t know the best sites, and 2) I am sort of lazy – obviously, I can do wins, but I was thinking if you had all of them in a chart or something, it’d be pretty and clean and such.)
If not, then I’ll try finding them all later.
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 10:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Check StatCorner.com for tRA WAR
FanGraphs.com for FIP WAR
FanGraphs.com for WPA
I think you can find Wins
Check Hardballtimes.com for xFIP (it’s on each player page), and you can convert it to WAR using the formula I gave above. Ditto with ERA
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another question
So at fangraphs.com, do they just use FIP (in the “advanced” box) for their WAR statistic (in their “value” box), then?
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
And (I think it’s my last question) where do you find the league averages so that I can calculate all of these?
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The league average RA is 4.65
For ERA it’s 4.32
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll make a chart or something later if you still want
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll figure it out.
Gonna be at the in-laws today for our Thanksgiving before going to my family’s on Thursday, anyway.
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK - Update
Alrighty. I came up with a chart that uses FIP WAR, xFIP WAR, tRA War (both vep referenced), ERA WAR, WPA, and wins; then, the chart ranks them (1 for best, 5 for worst). I averaged out the ranks to find out who should have won based on those 6 factors listed above.
1st – Lincecum
2nd – Carpenter
3rd – Wainwright
4th – Vazquez
5th – Haren
It looks the same if you add in ERA as a rank. If you add in IP and ERA as a rank and add those in and average them out, then all it does is tie Carpenter and Wainwright for second. If you add in IP only then it switches Carpenter and Wainwright.
That’s all I’ve got.
Thanks for bearing with me on the time of putting that together.
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this would have made a better fanpost than comment
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but i was only piggybacking off of
what vep had already conceived in his mind and on here.
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I suppose this works then
fine, don’t let us in on the inner workings
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ha.
I’ll find some way to get this to vep…maybe he can do better with it.
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
vep
Can I e-mail you my spreadsheet (in excel) and see if you can make more of it with weighting differences and such?
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just weight it by the results of the poll
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 3:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
weight it how?
what gets weighted more/less?
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you send me your spreadsheet?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't work for me
Why don’t you post it in google docs?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
would have been interesting
if you weighted the differences instead of averaging. not that i have any idea how to go about that, so i don’t blame you
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just based on
the size of the discrepancy
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
weight by error
if had them
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a pointless point from a sunday morning grump
like stan, i spend a lot of time worrying about and al little bit of time teaching about “statistics”. to me, it could easily be argued that none of these calculated numbers are true “statistics”, but are better described as metrics or even parameters. this is rooted in the fact that first of all, the ‘experiments" are not conducted under equal conditions and the outcomes are not viewed the same in each experiment, so that rigorously comparing the “outcomes” is not all that valid (i.e., what is the error associated with a calculated tRA?). so, semantics not aside, i like ERA as the most reasonable set of numbers that can be viewed as a statistic and compared from pitcher to pitcher. i’m not saying that calculating these other numbers have no value, i just (anally) don’t like the idea of calling these numbers statistics and particularly don’t like saying something like cy young should be based on one of them over others.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 10:39 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
please explain why ERA is not a metric in your mind?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh it is
it is just closer to an unbiased estimator than the rest because all the ‘corrections" applied to ERA to calculate these other metrics makes them less accurate. i have no idea how one would propagate the errors on the parameters. the bottom line is that “statistics” are useful predictors depending on a number of factors, the most important of which is that you repeat the exact experiment, and in baseball this just doesn’t happen. it is not rolling a pair of dice. no big deal as the word is in common usage, but i think the discussions about their relative validity persist in part because every “correction” adds error.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
every "correction" adds error.
sure, but the overall margin of error gets smaller
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
uh
no it doesn’t. you cannot propagate errors and reduce them at the same time. variations may cancel each other out, but errors can not.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sure you can
you remove a 30% margin of error and replace it with a 15% margin of error. how is that not reducing the margin of error?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When you add more parameters to a stat
It increase “error”, which isn’t necessarily margin of error – it doesn’t really have a unit.
A good example of that is tRA. It adds a whole bunch of information that can be very valuable, but it also adds a great deal of error in the batted ball classifications.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sure
but reducing the error, by whatever process you used, cannot be done by propagation, but can be done by making more accurate or precise measurements. propagation is commonly done by taking the square root of the sum of the squares of the errors involved in each measurement (for normal distributions). in baseball we don’t know if the distributions should be normal or not, but in lieu of a better understanding of the measurements, i think most statisticians would suggest using normal statistics.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well
you clearly know more about the subject than me. i’m not even sure if i’m understanding you or portraying my point of view correctly
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Normal is just easier to deal with ;)
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you bet!
i suspect that there is a lot of information in baseball’s semi-infinite (well, almost) numerical data base that would be interesting to analyze to see if any of these parameters are normally distributed.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
...
but i think the discussions about their relative validity persist in part because every "correction" adds error.
Exactly, that’s what I tried to stress in the OP. However, sometimes it’s necessary to add a little error to isolate the pitchers real performance. ERA is pitching + defense – there is no question about that. We want to isolate the pitching part, so we need to make some corrections, even if it adds a little error.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what do you think of BA against?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like it
It it’s predictive due to the defensive and luck aspects of it. It isn’t a value metric because it treats hits all the same…
There is no point to it.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true
but it seems statistically attractive because the “experiment” is about as close as it gets to being the same if every team plays every other team and in every ballpark, etc. no measurement will ever be uniformly unambiguous in baseball, so i usually look at what is a repeatable experiment.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Considering the fact that it's a "parameter/metric" and is based on BIS/GD/etc. stringers,
I doubt there we’ll have a very clear idea of the “error” associated with tRA for a while. Also, what does that even mean? It’s a stat used for projection, so are you talking about the error as distance from recent performance or future performance?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's (one reason) why it's not a statistic
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for explaining this.
In a way that not only a PE teacher could understand but also in a way an aspiring first grade teacher could understand.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 22, 2009 11:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I personaly like counting stats not rate stats for end of the year awards
Why should I decide that a player deserves an award based on what if’s? I think FIP, xFIP, and tRA are good predictor stats. In that they are good at predicting the future. But I am not looking to the future to see which of these pitchers will be best in 2010 but who was the best in 2009. WPA is not the best predictor stat but it is my favorite counting stat. That it shows how much each player added to his teams chance in winning. I like it because it doesn’t adjust for park or defense. Those stats are too Commie for me in counting stats. I don’t want to know if all things were equal how they would turn out. I want to know which player adapted to his own environment and took advantage of it. Now I could see an argument for discounting a player that missed playing time. A pitcher that didn’t miss a start is the baseline? A player who plays 162 games? Until that is decided I am sticking with WPA.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
WAR is the counting stat version of FIP, xFIP and tRA
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But those are predicting stats not counting stats.
WAR is simply trying to use to make a counting stat out of a predictor stat. I don’t care about what if’s when it comes to awards.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WAR is NOT a predicting stat (well it can be)
WAR is the counting stat version of the rate stat. WAR is context nuetral and assumes that pitchers don’t pitch to context, or doesn’t care if they do. A lot of people don’t think that context is even in a pitchers’ control, which is why they use WAR.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And WPA isn't a great counting stat due to the lack of a replacement level adjustment
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why should their be a replacement level adjustment?
It is a counting stat. Sometimes it is just about the results.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WPA is a counting stat
However, you still need to adjust for replacement level.
Say you have Chris Carpenter and his 4.50 WPA in 150 innings (made up numbers). Then you have Tim Lincecum and his 4.00 WPA in 200 innings. Carp was better right? Not necessarily. Prsumably the time that Carp missed was filled by a replacement level pitcher (like Todd Wellemeyer). His WPA is expected to be roughly -2.00 per 200 innings. You scale that to the 50 inning gap between the two, and Carpenter get’s 4.50 – .50 = 4.00. So he’s been just as valuable as Lincecum, despite having a higher WPA.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I already know the answer before ask this
but ERA WAR is just ERA, right? Its not some other kind of ERA calculation that involves a replacement adjustment?
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Nov 22, 2009 11:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
No ERA WAR...
Is ERA over replacement level ERA multiplied by innings (basically). It’s a way to weigh production (ERA) and playing time (IP).
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh cool
thanks
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Nov 22, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you don't have to pick one stat
What I would do is take each of these stats, give a number to each of them based on how good you think they are, then weigh each candidate by that number and average the results. That will give you your Cy Young.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's what I was going to do with the chart I was asking about vep.
I’ll try working on it later.
by stlfan on Nov 22, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just for the Record I hate xFIP
It says a pitcher has no control over which flyballs will go for homeruns.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Most pitchers have very little control over which flyballs go for home runs
Some do obviously, but you can’t tell from the data until you get a really big sample.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/when-do-stats-become-meaningful/
That doesn’t mean that xFIP is the right way to go – some people don’t care if you got lucky or not, just if you got the results (myself included).
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i can understand league wide it could average out
But I got to believe a Cy Young caliber pitcher can induce a weak flyball.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Carpenter has a career 10.6 HR/FB
Which is right about average. In 2005, that number was 10.3. This year, it’s 4.6.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
carp had a great year
doesn’t matter, as far as cy 2009, if it’s sustainable (greinke implies part of his game plan is to induce flyballs to dejesus)
is there any site/writer who believes timing is more than just luck that i could check out? i’m curious as to the timing of K’s in relation to stranding runners, particulary in regards to carp and waino.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
B-R has situational splits.
you won’t like what you see if you look up carpenter’s situational stats, though.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'll look at that
think you gave me the gibby game logs too. thanks. i followed that up, btw.
i’m wondering what percentage of a certain pitcher’s K’s come with RISP, that sort of thing, to see if maybe he pitches to contact until he can’t afford to. maybe i’ll find some sort of answer at B-R.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there's also
the clutch and li (leverage index) stats if you’re interested. they are on fangraphs. most people here think that they are bullshit. as far as how they are calculated i don’t know, but there’s little doubt in my mind that “clutch” is a very real and applicable concept
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Taking a wild guess
High LOB % equals High Clutch/Leverage index
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if so
then it probably is bullshit. high lob% can’t be repeatable. i highly doubt that many pitchers get significantly better under pressure. only that many of them get worse under pressure. see: rick ankiel; ryan franklin
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhat of a confusing argument I find
Is that they claim you can’t be clutch but you can be unclutch. As in you perform worst under pressure. So if you are not unclutch doesn’t that mean you are than clutch?
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can actually get that one
I don’t think there’s a level of focus you can tap into to get super powers, but everyone has had nerves/adrenaline/whatever and consequently screwed something up that was otherwise routine.
For example, shooting the last cup in beer pong when you are legitimately excited is hard as hell…
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But don't some people perform better under pressure
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really think so
I think the best you can do is chill yourself out and perform like normal.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 23, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're all wrong
Jeter is marketing a new cologne that captures his clutchy essence. It’s called Clutch for Men by Faberge. Jordan is coming out with Double-Clutch-Reverse for Men. The bottles for Jeter’s will come in two sizes. regular season where you get a lot with a general good smell, and the Playoff bottle will be a very small sampler bottle and will both smell both good and bad in different ways, but 90% of the population will only smell the good. The other 10% will swear it also smells bad sometimes, but they will be shouted down as haters and told they are jealous, and that they probably never smelled like anything in their life anyway.
by RDCardsfan on Nov 23, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this is like a sexual harrassment case about to happen
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 23, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WPA or wins
i like to root for an underdog.
by _pistol_ on Nov 22, 2009 11:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Whoever is voting for Wins, and not joking
Can we please here your rational?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Because individuals...
should bear the consequences of their teammates actions. That’s life. No man is an island. A butterfly takes a shit in Brazil and the ramifications are felt around the world. Those that choose to play team sports especially have no excuse. If you want to be judged on your actions alone, become a professional bowler.
Wins are for those that understand and accept the inter-connectedness of the human condition; tRA and FIP are for those that refuse to accept reality as it is and forever will be.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's ridiculous.
It’s arbitrary! Besides, if you’re going to look to Wins as a measure of performance, shouldn’t you look to team wins following a pitcher’s performance, and then throw out any wins that were comebacks after the pitcher left? At least that would be slightly less arbitrary than the rules for assigning pitcher wins.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 22, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Using wins...
is also a tribute to the tradition of baseball, which is one the most important aspects of the sport. Tossing this long-standing statistic out the window for newfangled stats that hardly anyone understands is elitist.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is why I always demand blood letting when I get a cold
I don’t have a clue how these new fangled drugs manage to interact with my body. I don’t have time to see if they are better.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Baseball stats...
have to engage the audience, and the audience is:
1) Tens or maybe hundreds of millions of people strong
2) Very busy
3) Not particularly inclined or able to comprehend new or complicated statistics.
If we want to sit around and debate this stuff, fine, but the masses need something simple that can be digested in under three seconds.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought most of those fans left for handegg.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 22, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wins=starting pitcher + defense + offense + bullpen
I don’t think it takes more than 3 seconds to say that sentence. It’s not elitist to say a debunked, dumb, bad, terrible statistic that doesn’t measure more than 30% of what it’s trying to measure (pitcher skill) is a debunked, dumb, bad, terrible statistic that doesn’t measure more than 30% of what it’s trying to measure. I don’t believe in catering to the lowest common denominator. We don’t believe in the Dalton model of the atom.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Since you brought up atoms,
we do teach the old red protons blue electrons solar-system looking model to middle school kids who are just learning.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pitcher wins are simple? really?
The first pitcher to hold a lead while pitching such that the team is still winning at the time he leaves the game and the team does not subsequentlt forfeit the lead after the pitcher leaves.
This is like saying that batting average or ERA is easy.actually, neither are. We’re just used to their complicated natures.FIP is probably simpler than ERA – it’s just unfamiliar.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 22, 2009 11:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
BA is pretty simple
hits/ab
of course then yoe have to get into defining an ab, which i guess is kind of confusing. and dumb, too
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Segregation
was a baseball tradition, too. It’s The Way Things Are™ is not a good reason for being willfully ignorant.
If people want to keep track of these traditional, arbitrary things, that’s fine. But they don’t mean anything and shouldn’t be used to measure a player’s performance. I’d rather see QS be used than Wins.
P.S. I think (hope) you’re pulling my chain.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 22, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Segregation and drugs that don't work...
hurt people. Bad stats don’t harm those that don’t know they’re bad, which is 99% of baseball fandom.
Baseball is a pre-modern game. Applying “advanced metrics” to baseball is like devising a computer program to determine why the walls in my 1909 Victorian aren’t plumb.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They aren't plumb because they weren't built by the Amish.
Problem solved
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Nov 22, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hah...
I think it’s a 100 years of plumbing and HVAC retrofits.
Note to all HVAC guys: Studs serve a structural purpose. Ducts should fit in between them.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What kinda AC Unit you got?
If it’s something other than a GE/Regal-Beloit motor, I’ll be upset. Used to work for ’em as an engineering intern, haha.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Nov 22, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You've convinced me to appeal to the lowest-common denominator.
Now what? Do I say things like “DeWallet” and get all my ideas from Strauss and ESPN?
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 22, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So the man said make the case...
given that it’s a tough case, how did I do?
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you vote for ERA?
Or were you playing devil’s advocate?
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 22, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for xFIP ERA...
I don’t trust the batted ball data collection. Monotonous, repetitive data collection leads to huge errors, as the tRA comparison clearly shows.
Ideally, one would use all these tools (minus wins) to create as full a picture as possible.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there are discrepancies
but the discrepancies between pitchers are relatively consistent between FG and SC
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There are also significant differences between stringers at specific parks.
I think there was an article that showed that the LD% at Safeco field was 7% above average for no apparent reason.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how big
is the sample size? could just be an anomaly
either way, we won’t be talking about this in a couple years once the computers really take over and hit f/x starts running rampant
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
trolling?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If this is the case, then...

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Nov 22, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no way, guayzi's been around forever
he does a point though, and just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean he’s a troll
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
guayzmi does enjoy
pulling chains from time to time however.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 22, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
don't we all RR?
like you pointed out, that other guy below is a troll
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh..ya...
just pointing out that he’s got me before, and I have seen him argue strawmen just to do it. But you are correct, he is no troll.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 22, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I got an invite... that's all I needed
Whoever is voting for Wins, and not joking
Can we please here your rational?
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't say
that he is a troll because i disagree with him. have i used that argument before? i said he was a troll because it’s the perfect stance to take to bait veb. almost too perfect
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i guess we have two different definitions of troll then
which is cool. if everyone was the same, the world would suck even moar than it already does
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i would just say
someone actively trying to elicit a response by dubious means
or something
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing the point
When we assess individual performance in a team sport, we have to consider whether that player has been smart enough to sign with a good team both offense/defense. Sure there’s some discounting when a player hasn’t been a FA, but #1 a true Winne® should have manipulated the draft to get that team behind him or at the very least those types of guys are smart enough to demand a trade to a team that could get that player the Ws. That’s what makes Winne®s so good
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i call BS
I’ve built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
It’s laughter and it’s loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
by Evilfrog on Nov 22, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i listen to this song on repeat in a dark windowless room....
don’t judge
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
by slu on Nov 22, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I laughed pretty hard at this
Gets a rec from me. I never would have put it that way, but the bowling logic is a good way of summing up the hyper-stat arguments.
For me, wins are what a starting pitcher’s main goal is. Managers don’t sit in the pre-game and tell their pitchers to go out and perform better than the average replacement player I could be starting in place of you. They tell you to work late into the game, give the team a chance to win, etc and do it with our terrible defense, bad ballpark, strong opposing team etc.
Wins are what teams and pitchers are trying to do, that’s why I think that stat is the most important. Having said that, I love the new stats because they help you understand relative strengths of various pitchers, help segregate park and team effects, etc. I think they help inform the decision. Waino was my choice, best pitcher on a playoff team. Carp didn’t pitch a full year.
I guess the question I have back is what do people feel about Andre Dawson winning the MVP award (mid 80’s) for the Cubs team that was so far out of it. I have the same opinion about that as well. He might have had the best year, but it was for a team far out of contention.
Just win
by The Duke on Nov 22, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get this argument at all
It is a pitchers award, but you count mostly on the offense for said wins. It just baffles me that people can’t comprehend the flawed logic behind this.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe...
If that butterfly is Mothra!!!!
by RDCardsfan on Nov 23, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And yes
It did take me that long to come up with a comeback.
by RDCardsfan on Nov 23, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wins would have done better
if you had put it earlier the list. You tried to impact results and still got a lot of wins — Wins would have done much better if you had put it first.
Just win
by The Duke on Nov 22, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wins would've done much worse if most people hadn't voted it as a joke....
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 23, 2009 8:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
all of the above?
When you have a vote for the Cy Young you better not just take one stat, but them in a row and vote. Otherwise we shouldn’t even give people votes. Just have a computer spit it out like the roilaids relief award. If you are voting for the Cy Young you better be able to look at the complete body of work.
That being said, I think that tRA would be the best way to evaluate a pitcher if we could the apparent guess work out of it.
by Evilfrog on Nov 22, 2009 11:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like a combination of tRA, FIP, and WPA
I probably just like the WPA too much from the single game analysis, but yeah, give me a combination of those three. I also think wins should not be totally discredited, but I would not say I would give them more than 10 percent influence in my grand plan.
So yeah, give me 30% tRa, 30% FIP, 30 % WPA, ad 10 % wins.
ERA is a total joke in my book.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or maybe 40, 40, 10, 10
like I say, I might like WPA too much.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My preemptive Party-Dance for Pujols winning MVP.

BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Nov 22, 2009 12:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Alternate caption
Right Trooper: “Wainwright wins!”
Left Trooper: “No he didn’t.”
Right Trooper: “Carpenter wins!!!”
Left Trooper: “NO. Lincecum won. Get back to work”
Right Trooper: “Aw maaaaan….”
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Nov 22, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
That dude is a big Carpenter fan apparently
My halloween costume: the Indiana secondary iPhone- no matter how much you want to love it, you know the coverage area sucks.
-ChronicHoosier
by Taskmaster on Nov 22, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I give you mine if he loses

big if though
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Effin Greenman.
Anybody mind if I dance?!
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Nov 22, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
be my guest
dance away
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GREEN MAN

SOME OTHER REALLY FUNNY GIFS
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/tpieman2029/pumpdance3.gif
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/tpieman2029/PumpkinDance2.gif
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/tpieman2029/circledance.gif
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/tpieman2029/punch-1.gif
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/tpieman2029/pumpkinfacedance.gif
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i find that very f'ing annoying btw
so thanks for the subject lines
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is a subject line I refuse to use it, for any other purpose ,but to inform you what a subject line is.
you are welcome.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Burwell needs too read this
And thanks for this vep. It was very informative while also very easy to understand, something that is very difficult to do. Well done.
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
by slu on Nov 22, 2009 1:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
you're forgetting one
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
TWSS.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 23, 2009 8:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a fan of winning percentage
I like the advanced stats, but I do not like FIP and people who put too much weight on it. This is a great article for anyone who likes to say that wins mean nothing about a pitcher:
by thoran85 on Nov 22, 2009 3:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't mean nothing...
It’s just that wins are a team stat, not an individual one. Do you really think the best way to describe Bob Gibson’s historic 1968 season is by saying he had a .710 winning percentage?
If you look at that study, the guy uses ERA+, which is problematic, then he only gets an R-squared of .5, which in this context isn’t particularly high.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wins are not useless, just vastly overrated.
His entire argument is flawed from that premise.
Grammar in that article are horrendous.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes wins are useless
Utterly worthless. They add absolutely no value to the picture we get from other stats. If you had no other statistics, wins would have value yes because good pitchers tend to get wins, but that is very different from adding anything to the picture because fortunately we have other stats that are infinitely better at measuring what we’re trying to get at: pitcher skill.
Again, Win-Loss is measuring starting pitcher + defense + offense + bullpen. If we’re trying to figure out how good a starting pitcher is, why use a statistic that is determined in majority of defense + offense + bullpen.
I was joking above, but it really is the same as using Dalton model to guess what’s happening in the atomic world. Yeah it adds something by itself compared to nothing, but modern theories are infinitely better and have completely made it obsolete.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I've been mostly convinced of this
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right, but
it ain’t that bad for s-shell electrons. throw in a little probability theory and you are pretty close, for middle school anyway
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I’d say someone should figure out the lack of value in wins by middle school.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my middle school had no team
so, was our era 0?
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no because you are dividing by 0
which means you just broke the universe. great job, moran
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Grammar in that article are horrendous.
i l u
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That article doesn't prove what you're saying at all.
If you’re trying to isolate what an individual pitcher is doing you should be grabbing their skillsets that give you the highest correlation year to year. That is to say that those skills attributable to the individual should be roughly consistent in projecting the future or, on a macro level, at least better than stats that incorporate other values.
What that post shows is that ERA+ (which incorporates a bunch of factors outside of a pitcher’s control) and wins (which incorporates a bunch of factors outside of a pitcher’s control) correlate well to one another within a single year. To quote my 6th grade 1990’s self, “Well DUH!” But if you try to correlate a pitchers ERA+ to their wins or ERA+ the next season, it’s not as strong of a correlation. What that tells us is that the factors in ERA+ aren’t as inherent to the individual pitcher as other statistics that correlate better year-to-year. FIP in 2008 is better at predicting ERA in 2009 than ERA in 2008 is at predicting ERA in 2009.
No one says that it means nothing. But it does a worse job of isolating a pitcher’s skills than other stats.
(Note: I’m talking about correlations using a very large n)
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Nov 22, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me try to explain to you what is happening in that article
Wins/W% has a ~.50 R2 with ERA. That means that only 50% of wins is actually tied up in how many runs you give up.
Are you fucking kidding me? That’s a defense of wins?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and if you look in the comments...
there’s an argument over whether a .5 r-squared is anything to brag about.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
That was what I was saying. If only 50% of wins (which is what R-squared means – the coefficient of determination) is explained by how many runs you give up, that, to me, discredits wins more than it supports it.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I can add.
Is that I was taught, a long time ago, that a r2 of anything less then .7 was meaningless. That’s what I have been going by for years. Of course, what do I know.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's context dependent...
I was taught in a methods of social science that, generally speaking, anything above .3 was quite good. I think that’s b/c social phenomena – the cause of criminal behavior, for example – is extremely complicated.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoever taught you is a moron ;)
There is no cutoff point where R2 becomes “meaningful”. It’s all dependent on the context.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you are saying that a r2 of say, .2 can be useful?
Then how can anyone say that the r2 of .5 for wins/ERA is not legit? Trying to learn here. I’m curious, not trying to be an ass.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here is what R^2 means
It represents the percentage of the change between each data point in the y-axis that is explained by the x-axis.
So when you have ERA on the x-axis and wins on the y-axis, as the article above did, that means that 50% of wins is explained by ERA. Does that make sense?
In this context, an R^2 of .5 is miserable. If wins are supposed to be a stat that measures production; however, it’s only 50% explained by how many runs you actually give up… that’s just pathetic and shows just how many other factors besides how well the pitcher performed can influence wins.
In other contexts, a .50 R^2 can be excellent. If you have a drug for regulating AIDS, and 50% of the increase in health is attributable to the frequency that you take the drugs, that, of course, is excellent because nothing else comes close to doing that (presumably, this is just a made up example).
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sort of like if a surgeon performs Tommy John surgery with a 50% success rate, he’s terrible, but if he repairs labrums with a 50% success rate, he’s a god of modern medicine?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, you would know better than I
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice article, btw.
I can’t think of a better, saner thing that could have been written today.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What was the context in which your teacher said that?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was a long time ago
But it was typical homework stuff . The data had to do with grades, sex of students etc.. That type of stuff. He said that an r2 of anything less then .7 meant there was not predictive value between the two sets of data.. I know I’m screwing up terminology here.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If he really said that in a generic sense, than he is a crappy teacher
I can’t imagine he said that. He must have been referring to a very specific example.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, were going all stat here
the correlations of which you speak are linear, and there is no inherent reason why linear models should be the expected outcome.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
Although the data points look pretty linear to me.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
correlation coefficients
are just that, probabilities of correlation. cause and effect are different, so unless you have some a priori reason to believe the two parameters have a linear co-dependence, you don’t want to make too much of it. to tell the truth, i understand the purpose behind these various metrics and why it is important to try to find the best way of predicting future performance, especially if you are going to pay someone for said performance. i just feel that the simplest ones are the best for me because every correction has its own non-propagated error. the net, to say the least, is problematic.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we do have a prior reason to suspect that Wins are dependent upon ERA
So the correlation is fitting here… it’s just very weak considering just how causal ERA should be towards wins.
i just feel that the simplest ones are the best for me because every correction has its own non-propagated error. the net, to say the least, is problematic.
I agree with you there 100%. It’s like with multivariate regression. The more parameters you add, the more error you add as well. You just have to find the right balance, which is what I stressed throughout this entire primer.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think it is multi-variate
and non-random to boot
tough gig
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 23, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sabermetrics make no sense to me
I guess that I am a baeball purist where wins-losses mean something. From what I understand, if Tim Lincecum would have went 5-18 with high sabermetrics such as WAR or whatever, then he would still be a Cy Young candidate. That seems a tad irrational. Granted he won 15 games, but I always believed that the Cy Young award was like the MVP award for pitchers. The fact that Lincecum pitched crappy down the stretch should have meant something while Carp and Waino pitched great during the stretch run. It’s called itangibles. Sabermetrics should never replace them. At least that’s my viewpoint.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 3:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Intangibles?
Like what? Guts, grit ,experience, momentum, heart and passion.
You can have your intangible players like Rex Hudler. I’ll take talent.
I may not understand exactly how the advanced stats work but I can understand the intent. A pitcher’s win/loss depends on way more then their individual actions. Take away things they can’t control then you get an accurate caliber of their performance.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a cop out
The Cy Young award is not awarded to the pitcher with the best talent. It’s awarded to the pitcher with the best season, and usually that goes to the player with the best team. The main issue is is that the pointof playing baseball is to win games, not to accumulate stats. Are you telling me that a playoff pitcher that went 17-4 and led the national league in ERA while dominating during the stretch run is less of a pitcher than a guy who went 5-5 with an ERA approaching 5.00 during the same stetch run. I would certainly take Chris Carpenter’s or Adam Wainwright’s season over Lincecum because despite all of these sabermetrics, the two Cardinal pitchers clearly pitched better than Lincecum when it mattered most. That’s what I meant by intangibles. In big games, I will take my chances with Carp and Waino over Lincecum any day of the week sir.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s awarded to the pitcher with the best season
season, not stretch run imho.
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
by BVHeck on Nov 22, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
are you prepared to stick by this logic
When it comes to mvp voting next week?
B/c albert, who is the best ballplayer in the game in my opinion, screwed the pooch down the stretch. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the guts to play the game.or that he’s a boy needing separation from the men.it means that baseball is a game of spurts and streaks.
This is the same logic that would have handed the 08 mvp to howard because he woke up from his hitting coma in september. The argument was wrong then and wrong now.
These are year long awards; I’ll be intellectually consistent on that point whether my players stand to gain or lose.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Nov 22, 2009 10:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
a win in september is more valuable than a win in april
i see how that makes sense
remember that four game sweep by the rockies in like june? no biggie
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually it isn't
For a game to have leverage in September, certain things need to happen earlier in the year to get to the point. You can’t just credit the one game, you have to credit all of them.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes
but i think we also need to view it through the eyes of the players – whether they perceive more pressure, and how they respond.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does that really matter though?
The issue has been studied to death, and there is almost zero evidence pointing towards players having clutch skill. So, if we’re assuming that clutch performance is random, we should take it as face value – and then you have to consider the precursor to the clutch event due to what I said above.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
has there been any indication
that players perform more poorly in clutch situations?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
some of them, that is
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haaaaaveee you met Dick Ankiel?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that was my argument all along
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know if it does
i’d have to think it through, and i’m pretty slow.
whether clutch exists or not, i believe wholeheartedly that anti-clutch, or choking, exists, which is a point i stole from a fellow named arneson in a fangraphs interview. a player certainly has a better chance of being clutch if he is not a choker.
btw, this is probably my favorite “informative” post. good job.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i was being smartasstic
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lincecum didn't "pitch crappy" down the stretch, though.
01 Aug-01 Oct he has a 2.82 ERA, averaged just under 7 innings/start. He had ONE bad start in September, to go with ONE bad start in August… in 5 of his last 6 starts, he went 7 or 8 innings and gave up 0, 1 or 2 runs.
The absolute worst possible quasi-honest cherrypicking you can do with his stretch run is to pick up with the 18 aug start and go forward from there. If you do that, he had a 3.40 ERA over his last 53 innings, exactly one ER worse per 53 innings than what Josh Johnson, Cy Young candidate, did for the year.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not disagreeing with your argument
just asking, how many votes did josh johnson, cy young candidate, get?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good point.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and not liking sabermetrics
does not make one a “baseball purist”. It might make one many things- a baseball romanticist, or a baseball art snob, etc, but it’s extremely arrogant to claim that the way you enjoy baseball is the only “strictly correct way” to enjoy it.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Team sport
And the last time that I checked baseball was still a team sport where all pitchers are dependent on their defenses. You cannot and should not punish a player that happens to pitch for a great defense or pitch on a team that scores runs. Either way, Carpenter still gave up less runs per game than Lincecum.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 4:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
the giants had a better defense in '09
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why not just give the Cy Young award to the best pitcher on the team that wins baseball every year, then?
so, CC Sabbatthia?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 23, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What?
Isn’t this a site for Cardinals fans anyway? Why are people that supposedly post on a Cardinal fansite making arguments for an opposing pitcher to win the Cy Young Award? The last time that I checked, you root for your team and not root for players on other teams. It seems that many of the people on this particular site spend more time justifying their stupid and confusing nerd-metrics instead of rooting for their team. Just an observation.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Later troll
“Let’s ignore all evidence in order to support the team we’re rooting for. Actually, despite the fact that the Cardinals lost to the Dodgers in 3 games, I contend they were actually the World Series winner! Support the team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
No
I am saying that you ignore the evidence, but when nerds start taking over how players are evaluated then you lose the important part of baseball.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
which part is that?
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It eliminates the humanity and enjoyability out of the game.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how?
I don’t agree with FIP being as useful as some think it is for valuation, but stats overall are just a tool for figuring out what happened on the field. In what way does achieving a more correct understanding of what happened on the field take anything away from the game? For most of us, stats make the game MORE enjoyable.
Maybe you should take the time to learn about them before calling them silly.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just old school
I guess that I am just old school, and I appreciate a pitcher that can tough out a win rather than a guy that strikesout 12 and loses. If these new stats were so important, then why did major league players (who ultimately have the most authority) vote Wainwright as the best pitcher this year?
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Guess I missed that vote.
Anyway, lincecum had as many complete games as Carp and AW combined this year. He was plenty tough.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
waino won
players association pitcher of year, which i assume is voted on by only players, though i have no idea what percentage actually participated.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's a good point
I’m itching to dig out how exactly those ballots are filled out. maybe it’s not mandatory like the other voting.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or maybe
wainer is just a clutch ass beast and timmy is a feeble little girl and the players know it
remember timmy’s ASG start? the lights are too bright for that young man. he needs more guts, more grit
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think
i would refer to it as “willfully ignorant” or “anti-intellectual,” but yeah, “old school” does sound better, i agree
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Kind of like if your medical treatment doesn't work,
you can call it “Eastern Medicine” instead of “Ineffectual Medicine”
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For you, not for me
If you don’t like it, don’t pay attention to it.
Buuuuuuut then you don’t get come to an debate armed with information debunked 20 years ago. Sorry. And hate to break it to you, but “stat nerds” is obsolete too.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
These terms are obsolete?
That’s fine because I don’t keep track of them for a living because I have something called a life. This is my first time on this “Cardinal” site. I have stated that I am completely old-school and proud of that. I don’t completely agree that my information was debunked. Who debunked it? When? Cited your source my friend.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
old school just means out of date
That is not an argument.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not an argument just a statement.
In fairness, your response isn’t much of an argument for your metrics either though.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball is an ever changing sport.
We don’t play in the same stadiums that we did when baseball started. We don’t even play with the same equipment. Not like other sports where the dimensions never change. Baseball is a sport that never stops growing.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Changing stats is why football is more popular.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i prefer the complexity of baseball
It is more mentally challenging than football for me.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i always wondered
if there were stats nerds and safermetrics and crap like that for football and the like
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 23, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that kenpom thing
looks like the bcs.
the rockets evaluate steals, rebounds, etc. and weight them as far as they factor into winning and use that in personnel decisions – stuff like that. they also value players the same way.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 23, 2009 12:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's based off of James'
Wins expectations….A college players sample size is so small, it’s tough to get anything meaningful about individual players, IMO.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 23, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true
and the nature of the game makes each player’s statistical performance much more dependent on those around him – moreso than pitchers, even, and we definitely have a hard time measuring them!
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 23, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
front offfice of houston rockets
the gm is considered the billy beane of basketball. he actually gets a lot of press for it, in those circles, but it’s in its infancy.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 23, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hockey, too.
A former player started a company that sells advanced metrics to teams. Heard it on NPR sometime in the last year.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 23, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't have a clue how you make an advance metric for hockey right now
I’ve seen the puck prospectus stuff and I’m not sold. I couldn’t even begin to look at that given the ridiculous co-dependence among the players. How do you credit Erik Johnson for his defensive ability allows every once in awhile all three forwards to get in deep to dig out pucks?
That and the data changes dramatically rink to rink apparently e.g. shot distances can be recorded 10-15 feet off from where they were actually taken because the stringers just don’t care right now.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 23, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am waiting for sports to start micro chipping the balls and pucks
I mean a RFID tag isn’t going to effect weight. I mean they used to microchip pucks for that glowing puck they used to use on Fox. I wonder if they give that data to the clubs.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 23, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That would go a long way for goalie evaluation
Which would help control for some team defensive stuff. Still would be extremely difficult to pare that down to individual players IMO.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 23, 2009 1:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was the mindlessly tackling people.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 23, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you mean it's not the tight ends?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 23, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bullshit

A troll is a troll is a troll.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 22, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't exactly summarize 20 years of research
If you truly want to learn more about baseball beyond the good ole cliches, the information is out there and readily available.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is my first time on this "Cardinal" site.
Maybe you should stop acting like an ass and criticising people who, in their own time, have taken the effort to write something informative that you have subsequently read and used to label them “stat nerds”.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 23, 2009 8:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i fuckin' love baseball, dawg
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
...
i can hide behind a keyboard too. but lets end the name-calling, its juvenille.
we dont assume we can change the outcome of the voting (regardless of whether the voting is OVER). we are just discussing how the Cy should be decided, and it is looking like every stat beside Wins chooses the pothead. we don’t try to delude ourselves here.
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
by BVHeck on Nov 22, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't we all hiding behind a keyboard
Just because I am on a website doesn’t mean I am hiding. I live in Idaho Falls, Idaho and would challenge anybody face-to-face with an intellectual and cordial discussion. It has nothing to do with hiding behind a computer…its not like I insulted your mother or something. I am just questioning the vailidity of these silly new statistics.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hmm
I am just questioning the vailidity
okay…
of these silly new statistics
ya lost me there.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and I'm.... responding to you.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you posted a non-logical sentence on the internet
wherein you said you would be “questioning” something and then you finished off by calling it stupid and silly. Which is not the definition of questioning.
chances are it will not make sense to all the other people reading you.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My post
" I am just questioning the vailidity of these silly new statistics."
That was my quote. I have a clear noun, verb and subject. That was a complete and logical sentence.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
then you might have some trouble with the people using logic in this forum.
have fun “discussing” this. or, in your case, saying something is silly and dehumanizing until it magically becomes so.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you said it, not me.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if lincecum was pitching against carpenter right now
we’d all be rooting for carpenter. Carpenter or AW winning a Cy Young award does nothing to help the cardinals on the field, though- if anything it hurts, since it might make them more expensive in a couple of years.
I guarantee there were mixed feelings in the Giants FO when they heard the Cy announced, with Lincecum’s arbitration coming up.
And we aren’t all rooting for lincecum. There have been some very good (and some very bad) arguments for carp and AW posted on this very site in the last week.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Answer me this
If these sabermetrics are so important, then why did major leaguers choose Wainwright as the best pitcher this past season?
Also, who cares about how expensive they will be in a few years. This is right now. You play to win now. What, do you want these guys to have shitty seasons in order to make them more affordable? That isn’t even a coherent argument.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the season is over.
There is no “playing to win right now” except for kids in arizona.
We’re clearly not rooting for AW/Carp to fail in the future; we’re arguing over how to interpret what happened in the past.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interpretation
Here is my interpretation: Carp and Waino made the playoffs and were an integral part of that…perhaps the most important considering the massive run scoring drought while Lincecum did not make the playoffs. Not his fault, but it should still be considered…right?
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not sure what you are saying here
are you saying that Lincecum is to blame, that his team couldn’t score 2 or more runs in 5 of his last 6 starts?
If the giants had albert pujols and the cardinals had Travis Ishikawa at first base, the giants probably would have made the playoffs, and we probably wouldn’t have. That has no bearing whatsoever on how Licecum, Carpenter, or AW pitched.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
4 of last 6, sorry.
He won both the games in which they scored more than 2, btw.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"not his fault, but should be considered"
That doesn’t make your head spin? Seriously?
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we're not Dan and Al?
we don’t believe in the Wave, either…
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in any case, an essential part of being a Cardinals fan, for me,
is being able to tip my cap when an opponent does something well. There are other teams where that would be considered unthinkable in the home stadium.
I’m proud of it. I’ll clap for good baseball, and root for the Cardinals. Going to the stadiums Busch all these years has taught me that.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because we are intellectually honest
that said, wainer should have won. he got more first place votes and if mcclellan had blown his 20th win or if he didn’t have to share votes with carp, he would have won easily.
lincecum was still better. call me a homer. i am
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sabetmetrics
If these stats were so important, then why was Adam Wainwright voted pitcher of the year by his peers?
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
ah, the Gold Gloves are managers and coaches
they don’t count. they’re not the most important people ever.
I have a guess as to which award they mean, and I think it’s fair to point out that the same ballot included “Comeback Player”, which would have resulted in less of a split-vote effect of the Cy Young. The BBWA only votes on the Cy for pitchers, right?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rafael Palmerio won a Gold Glove while only playing 28 games in the field.
You think his peers were correct in selecting him?
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I put more faith in people that play the game than number punchers...no disrespect.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thought it was number crunchers?
but i do sort of like punchers.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
number luggaging!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but that's for serious
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
misspelling happens on posts...get over it.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why are you such an angry person?
we are cardinal fans. there is much to be happy about!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Albert Pujols, Yadi,
Colby Rasmus, Adam Wainwright, Chris Carpenter… just to name a few. Oh yeah making the playoffs.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 22, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like every Cardinal
Except for Lohse, Thurston and Thompson.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the last one isn't a cardinal
and kl is a cool guy.
he was mad helpful in ’08 and early ’09
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He looks like the guy who cuts my hair
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you let a 12yr old cut your hair?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you let a 12yr old cut Kyle Lohse's hair?!?
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 23, 2009 8:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure.
And every mom who tells their kid they are smart and good looking is telling the truth.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good point genius.
I played baseball in high school, and had played in some semi-pro leagues, and I believe that people that play the game know more about the game than people that create statistics…sorry guys.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Genius?
Mom, is that you?
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
many of the people on this blog did that, as well.
FWIW, I chose wrestling over baseball (mainly due to a shoulder injury) but easily could have played in college. Saying “you never played the game” doesn’t work here.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because they thought he was the most outstanding player, I presume.
Since only 4 teams saw both AW and Lincecum pitch more than once, it’s hard to really consider them authoritative. Many players didn’t see either player pitch at all.
it would be interesting to see the vote breakdown, that’s for sure.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, Wainwright was a better pitcher in the second half than the first half
He was imo the best starter in baseball the second half of baseball. Stood out in peoples memory since it was nearer.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But isn't the second half of the season when you separate the men from the boys?
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no, their is 162 games in a season not 81
Every game is just as important. That is why you take it just one game at a time.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
here I thought those season-end awards were just for the Men of the Second Half
or maybe that was a calendar….. my mistake.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you pitch better than other pitchers during the 2nd half
it means that you have better stamina and guts than the other pitchers. Wainwright and Carp weren’t exactly awful the first half.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Carps playoff game 1 performance in the second half?
That didn’t go so well.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Carpenter, Sept 13, Atlanta Braves.
wasn’t that the most runs allowed in an inning since his Blue Jays days?
nice name-calling, btw. very consistent with your “discussion”.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So being clutch in the postseason isn't important?
Maybe he should have used more experience or momentum.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if Carp was a better pitcher
that umpire would have gotten the call right on the luddy line drive down the line, scoring 3 runs, and Carp would have been able to grit out a Win.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 22, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn it!
Someone find a replay of that stupid play.
I swear it was fair.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it exists
the “technical difficulties”
I think we did hear from some people sitting around Mannywood, and they weren’t sure. But I can’t remember where that was.
I would not be surprised if 20 years from now someone admits the ’09 postseason was bought and sold.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The frame dropped in the replay I saw
Curious.
by thepainguy on Nov 22, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
was a lot more than the single frame
but I don’t think it was malice. It was just TBS incompetence- they were trying to do telemetry from the blimp, it dropped, and the system crashed. And they didn’t bother to fill it in after the fact.
I was at the game, sitting about 15 rows back about half way between the pitcher and 1B, and it seemed clearly fair to me.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 23, 2009 3:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is true
Lincecums GI (guts index) is a measly .136 compared to wainer’s roaring .263 GI
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
then what about the mvp?
pujols second half wasn’t nearly what his first half was.
but how dare i say something against the legitimacy of a cardinal’s candidacy for an award.
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
by BVHeck on Nov 22, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's the half of the season for cliches.
The first half of the season is for platitudes.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 22, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And the offseason is for tautologies?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Playful ones, yes.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 22, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and malapropisms.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 23, 2009 8:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
remind me of this the next time Isay that wins aren't useless
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lima led the league in herpes outbreaks also.
If you are a female you really don’t want him pitching to contact.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Nov 22, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Very few baseball players
are making front office decisions these days. You know who is making front office decisions? Stat nerds.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 22, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
heh, I admit I take a sick pleasure in checking posting profiles
and confirming my suspicions.
(nah, I don’t claim causation. correlation, in my experience, is so very telling, though.)
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 6:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
and the timing. it makes it extra entertaining.
I gotta control myself, 6ly.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Nov 22, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This has been fun
This has been a fun chat, but my cold has gotten the better of me. Need sleep. Thanks for listening to me rant…have fun gentlemen.
by msabin2 on Nov 22, 2009 6:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I didn't vote.
I’m pretty torn about the whole thing, since I think xFIP along with a bit of batted ball profiling is the most useful way to talk about a pitcher’s projection but rings a bit hollow when speaking about his performance. Honestly, if the writers want to give the award to the guy with the most wins (dumb) then they’re fine to do so- the problem is people who flaunt their ignorance about advanced metrics as though being ill-informed and “old school” was something desirable. In Japan, there are a series of milestones that a pitcher has to reach in order to be considered for the Sawamura award, and that’s fine. It’s clear, consistent, and it links the history of the game to the present and future.
The problem is that the Cy and MVP are based on subjective measures. If a writer acknowledges the inherent luck in the wins statistic and says “Cy Young has the most career wins, therefore wins are the determining factor in Cy voting,” I can respect that. Problems arise when a writer tries to vote or argue based on objective things like value while using fatally flawed data like wins or ERA. By any measure of “value” that I can think of, Tim Lincecum was the most valuable pitcher in the league. He didn’t get the most wins, and he achieved his value in a way that happens to make him really stand out according to certain measures (he struck out a shitload of people, and FIP loves him for that), but every form of WAR, WARP or other value measurement has him on top of the pile.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 6:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Actually, him and Carp are about even in ERA WAR
And Carp has him beat in WPA (even when you adjust for innings pitched).
I think there is a legitimate case for Carpenter winning the award, I still think Lincecum was better though.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i can't deside, i really can't
they all have their merits, and they all have their faults. all i know is i’m not even close to being smrt enough to say which is the end all be all stat to decide who should win the Cy. i just know i wanted it to be Carp or A.D.A.M
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 7:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think FIP is useful...
as a predicative stat (though there are better ones).
But I think to a certain extent, awards should be based on what actually happened. By rewarding FIP, you are saying this pitcher really did great, but his defense let him down.
Will we start giving batting awards to players that have the best LD%? After all, he hit the ball better than anyone else, it’s juts the opposing defense did a better job of defending/positioning or was unlucky
by DiscoJer on Nov 22, 2009 7:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So should we reward Carpenter for Brendan Ryan's web gems?
ERA is pitching and defense. I can’t see any justification for giving pitchers credit for the defensive part of it.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes
he did have Joe Thruston and Skip Schumaker on the infield as well. FIP overvalues the strike out.
by Evilfrog on Nov 22, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it doesn't
I hate when people say that.
Here is what an at bat breaks down too: a strikeout, a walk, a home run or a ball in play. Strikeouts, walks and homers all result in their name 99% of the time (with passed balls being the exception). A strikeout, will result in an out 99% of the time. Simply put, it is the best thing you can do in baseball.
Some pitchers have control over how many balls in play fall in for hits, and the severity of those. However, even the best pitchers can only force around .290 BABIP. So if the best pitchers get an out 29% of the time on balls in play compared to a league average of 30%, that’s simply not that big of a difference, and is far overshadowed by the disparity in strikeouts between pitchers.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok. I you are right.
FIP doesn’t over-value the strike-out. The people who use it alone judge which pitcher is better {I’m looking at you Law} over value the strike-out.
Simply put, it is the best thing you can do in baseball.
With no one on and under two outs I would say the best thing that could happen is an infield pop-up / ground-out in under two pitches.
Two outs, best thing that can happen is the strike-out.
With the double play in order the best thing that can happen is a double-play ball.
With runners in scoring position and no DP in order the best thing that can happen is a strike-out..
I could go on but the best result of an AB really depends on what is going on in the game. Of course, I don’t know of any kind of stat that can tell you how good a pitcher is at getting the best result in any situation.
by Evilfrog on Nov 22, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good points to consider
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This.
My sentiments, exactly. There’s also the benefit of throwing less pitches and going deeper in games. I do not buy the argument that the strikeout is the best thing that can happen.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
by IHeartBoog on Nov 22, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The pitchers w/ the lowest pitch counts...
…are the ones who record a lot of outs and don’t walk people. That’s according to a Hardball Times study from a few years back. A strikeout eats up more more pitches than a one/two-pitch groundout/popup, true, but it’s a myth that a corps of magical pitchers exist out there who get those results with regularity (except for Greg Maddux, who was also blessed with a remarkable brain and had otherworldly command and movement… exception, not rule). I’m throwing my weight in with a guy like Lincecum.
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 23, 2009 2:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fip overvalues the strikeout
according to fip, a strikeout is the only good thing you can do. there are 4 possible outcomes. one is thrown out the window and you’re left with two that penalize you and one that you are rewarded for. how else do you explain vazquez being wildly better than carp according to fg’s fip, but the inverse being true for fg’s tra?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and hell,
a bip results in an out 71% of the time and fip completely ignores that data
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
am i not math?
if league average babip is ~.290, that means that a bip goes for a hit 29% of the time. what is the other possible outcome?
i guess i’m overlooking the fact that a bip can score a runner whereas a k is much less likely to do so. any idea what percentage of bip bat in runs?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the league average BABIP is .300
And that is hidden in the FIP formula.
FIP breaks down into 4 things, as I said above. 3 of those things are already in the formula, which means the 4th thing, BIP, is implied.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
okay
i was unaware that fip accounted of for bip in any manner
i thought you were saying “no it doesn’t” in reference to
a bip results in an out 71% of the time
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
again
the giants defense was much better than the cardinals, Brendan Ryan, included. Carp’s ERA was better than lincecum’s despite having a hugely inferior defense behind him.
Maybe he was super-lucky, or maybe he was just really good. Either way, he gave up less runs per inning and/or game when pitching, and that should be recognized.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 23, 2009 3:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You know though what bothers me
These stories talking about how the media is finally accepting the stat geeks by voting in Lincecum. That somehow Lincecum was the true runaway winner that only stat geeks truly could appreciate. I think you could argue that Wainwright or Carpenter was a better pitcher than Lincecum without using wins and not come off sounding like an idiot. Wainwright was the best of the 3 in the second half and pitched the most innings. Carp lead in WPA and Lincecum was the most rounded of the 3.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 8:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Also,
the vote was extremely close three ways and people are very pissed off about it- hardly a run away win for the stat nerds.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FIST

"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 8:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
wow
Keith Law rates Joel as the 4th best free agent
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
by slu on Nov 22, 2009 9:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well...
He probably is, although there are like 3 other guys who you could make a case for as well.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
after going through the list i guess my wow is more for how weak this FA class is
although i think he’s too sour on figgins. there’s no way hudson or lopez are better options.
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
by slu on Nov 22, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd rather have joel
for 3/24 than harden 2/20, i think.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i would rather have ben sheets at 3/30 than pineiro
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sheets is way atop my list
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a sheets signing and a killer reliever will help alot
now who do we get for the bench?
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no way
i would sign sheets for 3 years or guarantee him 10MM
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
getting close to pinata time
which means santa’s coming soon
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Grrr I can't get my fanpost to work
It involves writing a script. It works fine as a normal HTML but won’t work in a fanpost. I wonder if I can write scripts in fanposts or only mainposts.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 9:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
What do you mean writing a script?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A script to make an magic 8 ball
I tried to post it but apparently it won’t let me do it. It just reads the script
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It should look something like this
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh
Send me your script and I’ll see if it works in the story editor.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well I don't have permission to see it
I might spruce it up a little bit. Figure one of you guys can throw in it a post or something than.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol....I think I know where this is going.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 22, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well it is pretty basic code
Even if you don’t know how to program. I think you could figure out how to manipulate it for yourself. I just thought it would be funny.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I asked if Grady will be back to being Grady this year
and it told me if LaRussa wills it so. I didn’t know he was so powerful. I hope he likes the Indians.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 22, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just for the record it was hastily put together
It was supposed to be in Beta mode
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can we ask anything or just baseball stuff?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anything really
I am pretty open minded. Thought it was a cool idea and hastily made some content to fill in
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty funny to ask it questions like
Will the hot firefighter from last night be my next boyfriend? And get the answer the Wizard points to yes.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 22, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what the hell are you people talking about?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a few of those answers made me want to cry
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
put down the kahlil
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 22, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anyone else have some funny sayings
I just threw a couple together off the top of my head
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for that VEP.
That was a post that even an old farmboy can understand(to steal a phrase from Tackle Box). I have a helluva time keeping alot of that straight and have to go back and remind myself what each means exactly. This is also why I stay out of most stat discussions, I don’t like having my ass handed to me.
I had to go with tRA, as much as I like the simplicity of FIP it just doesn’t put enough into it. I just don’t necessarily care for the thought that human judgement goes into what kind of batted ball occurred, that can really cause a swing from person to the next.
You're the fail to my win?
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsch on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Nov 22, 2009 9:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
so 26% would base their decision
based on ERA? After that excellent primer. Wow, there’s no homers here.
None at all.
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 10:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
(throws dead horse head on homers laptop)
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
AAHH! AAAH! AAAH!
I consider myself warned.
So Nick, how would you have voted if you were a part of the illustrious BBWAA? I’m sure I know your #1 pick, but who for #2, #3?
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you warned?
But you are the Godfather
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right, I forgot.
don’t make me take you to the mattresses with all that silly ERA garbage.
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have Carp 2, Wainwright 3
Wainwright didn’t benefit from any good defense, but was just really good with runners on base.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
from memory
That seems like that was all the beginning of the season. I remember Waino getting results early but with a high LOB%
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The no outs bases loaded escape at Wrigley was pure awesomeness
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the KLaw
He’s always been cordial with me, and I like snark, so he’s up my alley. But it seemed like he based his ballot almost strictly on FanGraph’s WAR, although he put ADAM over Haren.
I’m sure he’s more qualified to make these sort of decisions than I am, really, I don’t know who I would have voted for after Lince, there seems to be so little separating Waino-Carp-Vaz-Haren.
like for instance if you go with tRA, Carp comes out way ahead. If you go with FIP, Vazquez is way ahead.
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I thought the whole KLaw thing was crazy over blown
NL had a lot of goo candiates this year
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and his Vazquez vote didn't make the difference anyway,
If Carroll and Law both had Carpenter on their ballots where they had Haren/Vaz, Lincecum still would have 100 points, Carp, 98
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it was the closest NL Cy Young race in over 20 years
I think that says a lot since 87.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because he's a bitch that hates the Cards
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
please.
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
when the guy says the day after the world series they are't a good team
and then every other time he talks about them, he has nothing good to say, that’s not an accident. it’s a pattern.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 23, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he has long praised Clobby
and has frequently said Pujols is the best player in the league so i dont think he hates the Cardinals. i do think that Cards fans are very passionate and he likes to rile people up so naturally when he does say something bad about the BOB he like the response he gets…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Nov 23, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it reasonable..
to say that Wainwright, Carp, Vazquez, and Haren are essentially tied for second best this year?
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's arguable
at least. I think it’s good that Haren and Vazquez were highlighted, they deserved to be, although it’s sad that all it did was create a giant fart-storm.
Stupid fart-storms.
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vazquez got $70,000
out of the deal.
by Evilfrog on Nov 22, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
$35,000 after "expenses"
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wouldn't that be something
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this surprises you?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There was like a 2 hour argument on the merits of including defense, bullpens and offense in evaluating a pitcher...
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We have this conversation every 2-3 months here
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Nov 22, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we just ban anyone who says wins are good?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was just playing devil's advocate!!!
Actually, a ban would drastically improve my productivity and probably kickstart my career.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I actually think only 26% is a good sign
progress is being made
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not after years of having larry, chuckb, dan and now
vivaelpujols here.
But 26% is a lot less of a number than in the BBWWWWWAAAAAAAA
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind though....
there are about the same amount of votes as there are posts….and there aren’t 200+ unique users posting. Anyone can vote, who knows who they are.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 22, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ya i was wondering
why sbn lets you vote without being logged in…
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
by BVHeck on Nov 23, 2009 5:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that is should be lower
but really, considering all the people who, on a daily basis, refuse to acknowledge this stuff as a good thing, I really thought it would be closer to 40%.
I do love today’s post though, hopefully it is enough of a primer that it will bring a few more people over from the dark side.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually voted for ERA WAR
I think that timing and luck on BIP shouldn’t be counted against the pitcher – just defense. Most of the discrepancies between ERA and FIP/tRA are due to luck and timing rather than defense.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So essentially you think ERA and innings pitched was the best deciding factor?
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, yeah
Innings are always going to have to be included somehow – I can’t really see differently. And, given that I am trying to isolate the pitchers performance, I don’t want to include context driven metrics like WPA and Winzzzz because the context a pitcher is in is out of his control.
Maybe something like 50% ERA, 30% FIP, 20% tRA WAR?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree
pitchers should be evaluated based on how they meet all expectations, including winning. innings is certainly part of that. an example is the debate on harden
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 22, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree that pitchers should be evaluated based on whether or not their team wins
Because that is out of their control.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
winning is a consequence of performance
not the only one, but a valid one. i would not hang my hat on that alone or put it first, but it is a consequence.
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Nov 23, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps
over a sample of like a career you could derive something quasi-meaningful from win%, but there are much better ways to go about it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well,
now i feel silly for trashing ERA as the way to go. A little bit of everything, weighted properly and I can go for that.
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ERA deserves to be trashed, for most things
Just not when talking about past value.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed.
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We have this conversationevery2-3monthstimes a day here
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Roughly
Then they go take their ball (because they played baseball in HS and no one here ever played baseball) and mostly go away. I believe a few have been converted though no?
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is normally someone's first post
And they are
Old School
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As though having your learning formed in rock in 1985 is a good thing
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 22, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then they go home to reenact that scene from death of a salesman,
where they all hallucinate about the athletic accomplishments of teenagers.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Nov 22, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're not well
you know that, right?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
who you kidding
You are interested in what kind of responses I get
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
of course
but I am not exactly right in the head either
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Nov 22, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Nov 22, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
THAT.IS.AWESOME.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan F. Ludwick
by RiverRat on Nov 22, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
Um…
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 22, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You smell nice
You get a new shampoo?
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i suspect you are by her window
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FALSE.
I’m not near a window. I’m in the library basement.
There is a guy hiding in the middle of three desks right behind me…
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 22, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is really creepy
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well if that's so then go ahead

"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 22, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WTF?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 22, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
take out the hood ornament business
and change it to gently broke into the car and handled the precious things then locked up when you left before sunrise and i bet you get some action.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 22, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
did you get this from reddit?
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 23, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
Just reposted it in Saint Louis
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 23, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you had me going, I thought you actually wrote it.
then I saw it on reddit and thought it sounded familiar.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by the last one you see is always the prettiest."- Bob Gibson
by CodyG on Nov 23, 2009 1:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you two have day jobs
or do you just cycle back and forth between reddit and VEB?
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Nov 23, 2009 8:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can someone tell me what FIP and xFIP predict?
beyond counting stats (wins, era) that everyone hates.
I keep on seeing FIP advocated as better than wins/era, but then every time I see those arguments they predict those stats with FIP to prove their point. But that makes me think ERA is ultimately what we care about right? It just seems somewhat circular.
by enoscountry on Nov 22, 2009 11:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
fip
is scaled the same as era. so basically, gip, xfip, tra are all trying to predict how many runs per 9 ip a pitcher will give up
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ERA
Is pitching + defense. When evaluating a pitcher, we like to only look at the pitching part of that equation. FIP takes things that are almost 100% in a pitchers’ control (walks, strikeouts, homers) and gives them full credit for them. It takes things that are out of a pitchers control, for the most part, what happens after a ball is put in play, and gives the pitcher no credit for the actual outcome.
The problem with FIP is that is eliminates timing of events, and the little bit of skill that is present on forcing a low average on balls in play.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I get the theory of FIP
and I buy it.
it just seems like the formula just came out of people’s a**. The whole adjustment to make it look like ERA and all the weighting makes no sense in terms of a predictive measure.
Why doesn’t someone estimate a model to find out the optimum weight of all these factors, including ERA, in increasing a team’s probability of winning and then use that measure.
by enoscountry on Nov 22, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well it is adjusted to look like ERA
Because ERA is so ingrained in peoples mind. Plus, it makes it easier to compare the two.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, that's what FIP does ;)
Not exactly actually, the weights you see are how each event predicts runs.
The 13, 3, and -2 aren’t pulled out of ass, they are the empirical weights of the FIP variables to runs.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how does HR
predict a run by 13 exactly? That is (statistically speaking) improbable.
by enoscountry on Nov 22, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They scale it like that so it's easy to rember in the formula
The actual weight of a home run is about 1.4. Here are 2 excellent primers on FIP, which will explain things for you.
http://www.3-dbaseball.net/2009/10/evaluating-pitchers-with-fip-part-i.html
http://www.3-dbaseball.net/2009/10/evaluating-pitchers-with-fip-part-ii.html
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for these, really
But I’m going to be an idiot here, since I want to get this straight. So FIP is not FIP at all, but the RCA of pitcher controlled stats averaged over BABIP. Therefore it assumes a HR has the same Run Created value for each pitcher.
But this seems ridiculous. Any pitcher who is awesome at strikeouts lowers the RCA of a Home Run since he lowers the events of balls in play ahead of that HR.
Am I wrong on this end?
by enoscountry on Nov 23, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, you're completely right
FIP will naturally overvalue bad pitchers and undervalue good pitchers for exactly that reason. However, the difference is very small, and is only somewhat noticeable at the extremes.
There is something called Base Runs FIP, which adjusts for the custom value of each event based on the pitcher, but that’s a lot harder to calculate than FIP, and really isn’t worth the trouble in most instances.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It seems there's an easier way
I know it’s easier said then done, but Tango or others could have easily included an interaction condition for these weights based on Ks and BBs.
That is calculate the RCA of a HR in a game with 1 K, 2 K, 3 K, … This most likely ends up being a linear negative effect. Likewise HRs probably have a higher RCA by 1BB/9, 2 BB/9, 3 BB/9… You just include these negative effect of Ks and positive effect of BBs on a HR’s runs created average by adding it into the weight component.
That way a pitcher, like Carp, with a low BB/K lowers his HR weight on FIP.
by enoscountry on Nov 23, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not really sure what you are saying
How would you combine that all into one formula?
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It the simplest sense it's an interaction term
For example, with estimated weights a_1 and a_2:
Better FIP = (13 – a_1*K + a_2* BB ) * HR + 3*BB – 2*K)/IP + C
Which ends up simplifying to
Better FIP = (13*HR + 3*BB – 2*K – a_1*K*HR + a_2*BB*HR)/IP + C
So you could either estimate the interaction effect (a_1 and a_2) on RCA via OLS regression and assume it’s linear.
One other problem, which is a big elephant in the room, is that a pitcher’s innings pitched is a product of BABIP luck. A better FIP measure would have that taken out somehow. But that’s probably impossible.
Thanks for the info again anyways.
by enoscountry on Nov 23, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oops
I meant to add you could also calculate a_1 and a_2 empirically, to account for possible nonlinear interaction effects, and then try to account for that somehow in the formula.
by enoscountry on Nov 23, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
plus a scalar factor that is huge compared to the inputs (~3.2)
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Nov 23, 2009 3:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i went ahead & voted for FIP
i’m still not sure about my decision though
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 11:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
FIP is pretty good
I have it a hair behind ERA in my mind, in terms of value. I would love tRA, but I have a feeling the noise in batted ball classifications detract more that they add.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's why i didn't vote for it
until they come up with a universal way to classify batted balls, it’s just not fair
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 22, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is what I am saying
I like tRA when it is paired up with a hit f/x system.
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Someday soon we will look back and make fun of people that still use FIP
like we do with VORP today
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, FIP is more predictive that tRA in a small sample size
Batted ball types aren’t as stable as the stats in FIP
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true
but tra will be a hell of a stat for measuring performance
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't even know what that is
i’m just talking about when hit f/x is implemented into tra
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PZR is ERA WAR adjusted by individual pitcher UZR
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
aside from the occasional fanpost at
BtB, any idea where I can find it?
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 22, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't ;)
I’m working on a quasi-UZR using gameday data, but I’m pretty lost.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
godspeed, my friend
godfather of futureredbirds.net
by erik on Nov 23, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
without know much about it
i’ll take tra seven days a week. i’d much rather know batted ball data than letting uzr account for the defensive portion of era
now, when hit f/x is the standard for defensive metrics and uzr is either in the cellar with fld% or much more accurate, then we can talk. but i’d still say that tra would be better. eliminating the defense seems more accurate than trying to measure it’s effect on the pitcher performance
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i missed the part
about individual pitcher uzr
if ~2000 inning is the minimum sample size for uzr accuracy, how are you supposed to use it for pzr? that half a pitcher’s career
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 22, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You use it to judge how hard to field each ball in play is
It isn’t meant to be predictive.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 22, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i know
but in a 200 inning sample, uzr is pretty much pure noise. i don’t see how it can be useful in any way for evaluating past performance
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think you mean future performance
I think UZR is much much worst than ERA at predicting future performances
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 23, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no
i mean past performance. i’m not saying uzr is bad for evaluating past performance. i’m saying a 200 inning sample of uzr is bad for evaluating anything but the flaws of the stat
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hit f/x based UZR will have little measurement error
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well, of course
which also eliminates the noise in tRA
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
tRA still removes timing
Which I would like to keep. PZR takes out the defense part of ERA, making it just (timing + luck + skill). That’s the metric I want for the cy young.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
define timing
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Both pitchers allow two walks and a home run in one inning
One guy gives up the home run after the walks, the other guy does it the other way around.
The first guy gives up 3 runs, the other guy gives up 1. The second guy was obviously more valuable, even if he just got lucky.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
okay
i can see the value in keeping that for the sake of evaluating performance and not predicting it. either way, i’m staying far away from pzr until we have a defensive stat that is even kind of decent at such a small sample size
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i thought hit f/x would of been out this year so far
Wasn’t it out last April?
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 23, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not that i'm aware of
though, i;m probably the wrong person to ask. at the very least, i haven’t heard of it’s implementation into any stats
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but it's too small of a sample size to get anything meaningful
Also, even if Hit f/x is fully implemented, it will still have a lot of measurement error for fly balls, mainly due to spin, which isn’t accounted for in Hit f/x and has a huge impact on the distance the ball travels.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hit f/x doesn't
actually measure the ball from start to stop?
anywhere i can read more?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hit f/x measures the speed of bat off the bal
Acceleration, and the launch angle (I’m pretty sure at least). If there was no spin involved, that would be all we need to know to calculate hang time, distance, and other cool things by using Kinematic equations. However spin adds a whole nuther element that’s nearly impossible to account for and can have a big impact.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah,
i see how that can be problematic. i guess i just assumed that it would track the entire flight path of the ball from bat to glove. if it did that or included spin and defensive positioning, we could have a pretty rock solid defensive metric
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well,
get on it, mlb
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow didn't know that
I thought it was going to track the ball all the way. Shit the difference between hitting a Wainwright curveball with 2000 RPMs of topspin (backspin on the way out) vs. say a Chris Young fastball with 2000 RPMs of backspin (top spin off the bat) could be the difference between a sorta routine fly ball and a home run.
I was actually thinking about this the other day…..groundball pitchers have tended to have higher HR/FBs right? Couldn’t that be a direct result of most groundball pitchers throwing a ball with less “rise” i.e. less backspin? Less backspin coming in means the hitter can put more backspin on the ball going out=ball goes farther.
At least that makes sense in my head.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Nov 23, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
makes sense
would also help explain why hanging curveballs love to sail out of parks
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd be very surprised if that had much effect
but i’ve been surprised before.
i think the batter has much more say so in how the ball leaves the bat, whether he gets under it or on top of it to hit a sinking liner, etc.
if groundball pitchers are generally sinkerballers and they give up a fly ball it’s likely they got the pitch up so the hitter didn’t top the ball, and it is an elevated mistake in the same way that a hanging curveball is, and thus a pitch prone to be mashed.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 23, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true, but
an elevated curveball is not only elevated and slow, but it also has spin that makes it drop when speeding toward the batter, so when leaving the bat the spin would have an anti-dropping effect similar to that of a fastball approaching a batter
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 1:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not if he topped it though
right, like a slow roller? and if he got under it the ball would have backspin and carry? and if he hit it square as possible it could knuckle? of course there are slices and hooks, too.
now, the spin coming in may allow for more potential carry, i don’t know, like if a batter hit two distinct pitches exactly the same way (under them) but one will carry farther due to the type of spin coming in, assuming they are the same speed?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 23, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i would assume
that if he hit it squarely, the spin wouldn’t just stop. the ball is only in contact with the bat for a tiny fraction of a second. and if he gets on top of it or under it much, then i would imagine you would get weak grounders and popups. not sure, though. lots of assumptions of things i know nothing about. just kind of wondering out loud
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 1:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
knucklers do happen
i’ve seen a few that weren’t really smoked, just soft liners, but usually they are hammered and can be tricky to catch
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Nov 23, 2009 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also - wind.
Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008
by Felonius_Monk on Nov 23, 2009 9:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When I reference this post in 3 years
See who is laughing than
by FlimtotheFlam on Nov 22, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
damnit you guys
veb is usually just a bunch of general chat at night. i was just gonna log in and read some comments while i ate dinner and then study for my econ exam. then i got sucked into a few really great discussions. you are bastards. now i will get little sleep.
i guess as a college student, i’m not supposed to sleep, thoug
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't sleep anymore.
I don’t remember what it feels like to not be tired.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 23, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thank god for coffee, eh?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Had a Full Throttle earlier (at like 9)
I’m on my medium eye opener (coffee with a shot of espresso). Hopefully I’m done before I need another caffeinated beverage. It’s not looking good though.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 23, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Never heard that called an eye opener.
Baristas call that a red eye. A double shot in coffee is a black eye, and a triple is a dead eye.
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 23, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We have our own special thing.
They make up their own names for things. It’s kind of hard to get used to at first because you don’t know what things are.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 23, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True.
Who is we? Are you working at a coffee shop?
Now with extra feisty!
by spants on Nov 23, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clemson in general.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 23, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why aren't you sleeping anymore?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 23, 2009 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
too busy thinking about you
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
School.
It isn’t allowed. I’m pretty sure.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Nov 23, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's not something i need to hear
considering i’m looking into starting classes in the winter or spring
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 23, 2009 1:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
considering?
fuck consideration. do it. the next month of my life is going to suck and i feel great about it. 4 years of suck with 40 of affluence following is much better than 44 of poverty
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm going to do it, i just need to figure out where to go
and how to pay for it
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Nov 23, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
stlcc
grants and loans. if you are poor like me, you can get up to $4750 from a pell grant per year. that’s plenty to cover tuition and little bit to ease the burden of not being able to work full-time. other wise there are student loans, and if i remember correctly, you are old enough to be an independent student which means you can easily borrow enough money for tuition and a little extra for housing or hookers or whatever
problem solved. i will see you in class in january
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Nov 23, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But he would have to move to St. Louis to do that.
I know he wants to but with the cost of college and moving I don’t know how easy that would be.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

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