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The Playoff Rotation Conundrum


With the recent post about Schilling and Johnson in 2001, and the news that Smoltz and Lohse were going to be available out of the pen in games 1 and 2 of the NLDS, I started thing about playoff scenarios and what they would mean to our rotation. I decided to go through each NLDS scenario that involved a Cardinal victory( this is not GOB tempting, simply the fact that or rotation does not matter if we are eliminated!). Obviously there are three acceptable outcomes for the Cards to move on (Cards in 3, Cards in 4, Cards in 5). So I used the MLB playoff schedule to identify what these scenarios COULD mean for our Cards. I will preface this with the fact that too many scenarios can play out in the NLCS for me to count up, so I only used the possibilities from the NLDS then map out what the rest of the games could lead to assuming we need 7 games in each series. 

CARDS IN 3

If we sweep the NLDS then there is no dilemma. Carpenter, Wainwright, and Pineiro pitch games one two and three and we move on. 

That sets up the NLCS with:

Carpenter in game 1 on FULL rest.

Wainwright in game 2 FULL rest. 

Pineiro in game 3 FULL rest. 

Carpenter in game 4 SHORT rest. 

Wainwright in game 5 FULL rest.

Pineiro in game 6 FULL rest.

Carpenter in game 7 FULL rest.

As you can see, by bringing Carpenter back on short rest in game 4, we can get 5 games pitched by Wainwright and Carpenter with only one game of short rest and the others all on full rest. The other great thing about this is what it would set up for the World Series:

Wainwright game 1 EXTRA rest.

Carpenter game 2 FULL rest.

Pineiro game 3 EXTRA rest.

This is the part that gets tricky. We would be in a situation where our 4th starter had not pitched in a month. That is why I say ride the horses.

Wainwright game 4 SHORT rest.

Carpenter game 5 SHORT rest.

Pineiro game 6 SHORT rest.

Wainwright game 7 SHORT rest. (With Carp available in relief)

In this scenario, we only throw Carpenter and Wainwright on short rest once each before the last few games of the World Series.

Possible NLDS scenario 2: Cards in 4

Carpenter game 1 FULL rest.

Wainwright game 2 FULL rest.

Pineiro game 3 FULL rest.

Carpenter game 4 SHORT rest. (Carp on short rest here because Wainwright would be able to pitch game 5 of FULL rest, so if you hold Carp until game 5 you have Wainwright also on FULL rest and unable to pitch.)

This scenario also works well because even with Carpenter going on short rest, he can still make it back for game 2 of the NLCS on FULL rest. You will also notice that this scenario is the same NLCS scenario as the one if the Cards sweep, only Wainwright is making 3 starts and Carpenter 2.

NLCS:

Wainwright in game 1 on FULL rest.

Carpenter in game 2 FULL rest. 

Pineiro in game 3 FULL rest. 

Wainwright in game 4 SHORT rest. 

Carpenter in game 5 FULL rest.

Pineiro in game 6 FULL rest.

Wainwright in game 7 FULL rest. 

Hey what do you know? In this scenario Wainwright can still make it back for game 2 of the World Series. You'll also notice that this scenario is the same as the one if the Cards sweep the NLDS, with Wainwright and Carpenter again switched.

 

Carpenter game 1 EXTRA rest.

Wainwright game 2 FULL rest.

Pineiro game 3 EXTRA rest.

Carpenter game 4 SHORT rest.

Wainwright game 5 SHORT rest.

Pineiro game 6 SHORT rest.

Carpenter game 7 SHORT rest. (With Waino available in relief)

Basically this scenario plays out the exact same as the first, with the roles of Wainwright and Carpenter reversed.

Possible NLDS scenario 3: Cards in 5

 

Carpenter game 1 FULL rest.

Wainwright game 2 FULL rest.

Pineiro game 3 FULL rest.

Carpenter game 4 SHORT rest.

Wainwright game 5 FULL rest.

Like I said earlier, we pitch Carpenter on 3 days rest here to take advantage of the fact Wainwright is on regular rest for game 5. That leaves us with an NLCS that looks like this:

 

Pineiro game 1 FULL rest

Carpenter game 2 FULL rest

Wainwright game 3 FULL rest.

Pineiro game 4 SHORT rest.

Carpenter game 5 FULL rest.

Wainwright game 6 FULL rest.

Pineiro game 7 FULL rest.

Again, you will see that this leads to a world series rotation that is the same as the rotation for the scenario of the Cards winning in 4.

 

Carpenter game 1 FULL rest.

Wainwright game 2 FULL rest.

Pineiro game 3 FULL rest.

Carpenter game 4 SHORT rest.

Wainwright game 5 SHORT rest.

Pineiro game 6 SHORT rest.

Carpenter game 7 SHORT rest. (With Waino available in relief)

 

 

 

 

The most important thing to take away from this is that whoever pitches game one of the NLCS can pitch 3 times while only going on short rest in one of them(game 4). Also, before the mad dash in the last 4 games of the World Series, only 2 pitchers pitch on short rest, and do so only once each. The off day's between game 4 and 5 and game 5 and 6 in the NLCS are a huge help for a team considering a 3 man rotation. I am not a huge fan of the short rest route normally. However, we know the reason we are in the playoffs, and we know what gives us the best chance to win the World Series. 

What do you think? Come up with your own playoff scenarios to put together the rotation with. If someone wants to go through the NLCS possibilities be my guest, just thinking about it gives me a headache. The playoffs ARE unpredictable, but I think that this is a good place to start in looking at possible rotation options down the stretch.

 

Poll
What do you think?
Ride the horses until they break!
31 votes
We have to stay away from 3 days rest until we reach must win situations.
43 votes

74 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs  |  Comment 22 comments

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Comments

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Wow that ended up a little longer than I intended

but it was a lot of fun to do.

"I remember once talking to one guy on the Cardinals and asking him what Pujols was like as a teammate. He said something that’s really special, if you think about it. He said: "Albert is so good that you feel like you let him down when you screw up." I thought that had to be the ultimate line that could ever be said about a ballplayer. I build my baseball team around that ballplayer."

by Smokin Turkeys on Oct 6, 2009 4:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think it's important to stay

away from short rest starts, period. You have to hope that Carp and WW are going to keep us competitive in their starts and will hopefully be going deep in those games (i.e. 7th inning or later). This would keep the bullpen rested so that Tony can play matchups in the starts by Piniero and Lohse/Smoltz.

That said, Smoltz is literally in the top five best postseason pitchers of all time. I’m not one to bet against guys who compete like he does in games that matter. For reference, I give you Jack Morris and the ’91 Twins…

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 6, 2009 9:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

John Smoltz>>>>>>>>>>>Jack Morris

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Oct 6, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm talking simply

about that game 7, 10 inning shutout in the ’91 Series. A big game by an aging power pitcher to win a deciding playoff game. Smoltz has done that in his career.

I also think their careers are remarkably similar.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 6, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for taking the time to break it down like this

That said, any short rest situation kinda scares me, though I know things like that are really only bad if repeated too often. In the playoffs I guess it’d be justified and not as much of an injury concern. Still. Short rest is scary.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Oct 6, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I just don't think that it's necessary

given the circumstances laid out here. If it’s a game 7 and we can go with Carp on short rest for 4 and WW on short rest for 4 then I’m all for it — but these guys need their sharp stuff and I’m not sure you risk it throwing them out there on less than full rest unless absolutely necessary.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 6, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like your carpenter/waino scenarios in NLCS

but let me just point out that i absolutely hate the new playoff schedule. it’s dumb. there’s absolutely no reason for a day off between games 4 and 5 in the lcs. why do they even do that? there’s no purpose for it. and pushes 4/7 of the world series into november, that’s way too late to be playing baseball. november 5th? really?

nfltouchdown.com

find me under the fan voices section for the st. louis rams

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 6, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think very few people like this schedule, even the players.

MLB is making money this way or they wouldn’t do it.

"I’m going to come after you." - Chris Carpenter

by spants on Oct 6, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also the WBC pushes everything back a few days too, I believe

At least that what I assume. The regular season is still kinda sorta going on and it’s October 6. That’s a technicality, but Sunday was the last regular day and that was the 4th of October. 4 days of extra lateness can be pretty significant, especially if a cold front swoops in at the wrong time.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Oct 6, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

contrary to popular belief

i don’t think the wbc has much to do with it. the season seems like it always starts the first monday in april (unless that monday is the 7th, then the season will start on the 31st), and ends the first sunday in october (or the last sunday in september).

this year, the season started on april 6th and ended on october 4th. i think that’s a normal year, with nothing pushed back because of the wbc.

in any case, the wbc does not have anything to do with the new playoff schedule being dumb as it is. under the old schedule, game 7 of the WS would have been played november 1st. under the new schedule, it is set for november 5th, a whole four days after it should have ended. that’s just silly.

nfltouchdown.com

find me under the fan voices section for the st. louis rams

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 6, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the season started later than usual this season

Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage

by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 6, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so you're saying it would have started on march 30th and ended on september 27th?

i don’t think that’s correct. i mean, i’m sure it’s happened before, but i don’t think the late start was solely attributed to the wbc.

nfltouchdown.com

find me under the fan voices section for the st. louis rams

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 6, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

That’s what would have happened had the WBC not been played.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 7, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only 3 LCS overlap days with new schedule

NLCS-2 ALCS-1
NLCS-4 ALCS-3
NLCS-7 ALCS-6

If it was the conventional schedule (as used in the WS), there would be 4:
NLCS-2 ALCS-1
NLCS-4 ALCS-3
NLCS-5 ALCS-4
NLCS-7 ALCS-6

FOX and TBS get to extend the number of prime time nights by 1 and reduces the number of weekday baseball games. And let’s face it, if the Cards are in the NLCS, TBS will get the day games in all 3 cases. Cards-Phillies might be able to upstage a Tigers-Angels ALCS.

Fan of: Cards, Blues, Yellow Jackets, Rams, Wolverines, and Blazers.

by ColinMacLeod on Oct 6, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't like obliging the whole rotation to short rest for games 4-7 of the LCS

Though I am curious as to how Piñeiro would do on short rest. I hear that sinkerballers usually actually somewhat prefer short rest, as a tired arm is going to put more sink on the ball. I vaguely reember researching this with Marquis when he was with the Cardinals.

They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...

by Valatan on Oct 6, 2009 2:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No that is only the World Series

One game on short rest in the NLCS (game 4).

"I remember once talking to one guy on the Cardinals and asking him what Pujols was like as a teammate. He said something that’s really special, if you think about it. He said: "Albert is so good that you feel like you let him down when you screw up." I thought that had to be the ultimate line that could ever be said about a ballplayer. I build my baseball team around that ballplayer."

by Smokin Turkeys on Oct 6, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No short rest in the WS

I dislike have 4 games in a row on short rest in the World Series. I think our chances are better with Smoltz in Game 4 at home followed by C/W/P all on FULL (game 5) or EXTRA (games 6 and 7) rest than with 4 starts by C/W/P with SHORT rest.

Also, in the NLDS-5 scenario, NLCS Game 4 with Pineiro on SHORT rest looks like a bad idea: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=pineijo01&year=Career&t=p#dr

Fan of: Cards, Blues, Yellow Jackets, Rams, Wolverines, and Blazers.

by ColinMacLeod on Oct 6, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pineiro on short rest in 2006

Followed relief duty in both cases for the Ms and was against the AL Champion Tigers and the 100-loss Royals.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=pineijo01&t=p&year=2006 (July 7, Sept 16)

Fan of: Cards, Blues, Yellow Jackets, Rams, Wolverines, and Blazers.

by ColinMacLeod on Oct 6, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carp and Waino

have never started a major league game on short rest. br chart for Carp and br chart for waino

by ubeddie on Oct 6, 2009 3:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I thought we were ging with three starters?

"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon

by Alxfritz on Oct 6, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

that would make the most sense

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Oct 6, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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