Hot Stove kickoff: The Roster Matrix
2010 ROSTER MATRIX
2009 EDITION
| STARTERS | BENCH | ROTATION | PEN |
|---|---|---|---|
| molina c $4.25m |
lugo ut $400K |
carpenter rhp $14.5m |
franklin rhp $3.25m |
| pujols 1b $16m |
greene ut $400K |
lohse rhp $8.9m |
mcclellan rhp $400k |
| schumaker 2b $2.5m |
mather of $400K |
wainwright rhp $4.65m |
motte rhp $400K |
| freese 3b $400k |
jay of $400K |
garcia lhp $400k |
boggs rhp $400K |
| ryan ss $400k |
pagnozzi c $400K |
hawksworth rhp $400k |
kinney rhp $750k |
| craig lf $400k |
stavinoha of memphis |
lynn rhp memphis |
miller lhp $2m |
| rasmus cf $400k |
hoffpauir 2b memphis |
walters rhp memphis |
reyes lhp $2m |
| ludwick rf $5.5m |
scherer rhp memphis |
||
| TOTAL $29.85m |
TOTAL $2m |
TOTAL $28.85m |
TOTAL $9.2m |
| OVERALL | PAYROLL: | $69.9m |
This is, to borrow a phrase from my home state's recent deficit-wrangling, the doomsday matrix; no free agent signings—no minor league free agent signings, for that matter—no long-term deals for players inside our out, no state fair. Luckily for the Cardinals, this skeleton budget is the result of money coming off the books, not being wrung out of it—$17.5 million from Troy Glaus and Khalil Greene, $12 million from Christy Mathewson and Todd Wellemeyer. I borrowed the arbitration guesses from flim's Table of Commitments over in fanposts; other raises, accounting for around $7 million, are due Molina, Carpenter, Lohse, Wainwright, Franklin, and Reyes.
Obviously the team isn't going to look like this, but if the Cardinals pared all the way back this is what they'd get.
Things that won't stand:
- The free bench. The infield looks good, though Thurston might take a spot from either Tyler Greene (thereby leaving, I don't know, Jason Motte as the second best defensive shortstop on the club [great arm]) or a middle reliever. The outfield—well, that gets to be a problem, especially if the Cardinals don't spend the bulk of their found money resigning Matt Holliday. Mather is coming off a serious wrist injury, and Jon Jay, who hit .281/.338/.394 in the PCL last year, only wishes he was. I imagine one of the spare outfielders will be making the league minimum, but not both. Catching... well, who knows; La Russa seems to prefer a backup catcher who is established in his mediocrity, but he's made room for a no-hit minor leaguer with an inexplicably good reputation in the recent past.
- Allen Craig, starting outfielder. I get the love for Allen Craig, but I'm not sure I'd blame the Cardinals for this one; his MLE last year, in the best season of his career to this point, was still just .278/.319/.440. He deserves every shot at a bench role, and I'd imagine he gets one, but the Cardinals can't cry poor enough to justify going into the season with a converted third baseman whose MiLB slugger credentials are not fully established as their starter in left field, which is not exactly a tough position to fill.
- Back-of-the-rotation man-stew. Jaime Garcia should be plugged into the fifth slot, but Hawksworth/Walters et al are just close enough to fifth starter material—fifth starter material being, generally, the stuff they made my Wal-Mart TV stand out of—that the Cardinals should take the chance to fill the fourth spot with one of the relatively high-upside plays Chuck outlined on Sunday. (My personal favorites are Harden [the obvious class of the class, I'd think] and, in lowercase for now, Ben Sheets.)
But this is a solid, cheap base from which the Cardinals can build. If anything, it shows that the Cardinals could theoretically build a team around two high salary guys (say, Pujols and Holliday) and stay above replacement level all the way around. The 2010 Cardinals have, at a glance, four non-bullpen starters who are potentially above average contributors; I have to think that's the baseline for any team employing both Pujols and Holliday. Getting Holliday in the first place made that a little more difficult, but how 2009's draft plays out will be extremely important.
0 recs |
793 comments
|
Comments
and last?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who cares if your first
i guess the yahoo crazies are showing up no i should flag you for being ignorant and not contributing to the article above,
btw the cards do need to resign Holliday or make a play for Jason Bay if they dont the more i think about it the less chance they have of resigning Pujols
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Oct 20, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i assume you didnt mean to reply to me
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO NOT YOU
nomar
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Oct 20, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time it takes to type out angry response: 30 seconds
Time it takes to scroll past comment: 5 seconds
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 20, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
that is probably the wisest thing i have ever heard
it does not surprise me it came from a robot…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's like a miniature budda
covered in hair
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Oct 20, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What?
You ate the whole wheel of cheese? I’m not even angry. I’m impressed.
John Smoltz for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by jd is legend on Oct 20, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
at first
I thought it said “minotaur budda”…and I couldn’t figure out what that meant
Mizzou 37 - Illinois 9
by STLRegalia on Oct 20, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A fat little man that ...
gives you wisdom at the end of a maze before he eats you?
by etp_stl on Oct 21, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dumb stuff is always worth complaining about
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Oct 20, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll complain about the newbs failing to read the glossary again,
if you like
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
5 seconds to scroll past?
You need a new mouse.
Lou Brock loves Lamp.
by birdjam on Oct 20, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Time it takes to type out an angry response: 30 seconds
Time it takes to scroll past comment: 5 seconds
Being a pompous douchebag who can’t let someone have a little fun: priceless
See, you forgot the third line there, Az.
When the fall is all that's left, it matters a great deal.
by the red baron on Oct 20, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
these are the little things about this place that I love
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 20, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how in the holy fuck is that not green?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
chance is already pretty slim, i
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
'd say
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
I guess it would have been cuter had I posted a giant picture of a fist, eh?
by 643 on Oct 20, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if that's 33.3% of your contribution to VEB
go with more bang for your buck
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm intrigued by this notion that I'm expected to "contribute" to VEB. This is the second reply that's used that word. Shennanigans. I contribute by being a loyal, thankful reader who really does appreciate the content I get here. The comments . . .
about 33.3% of them.
by 643 on Oct 20, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's perfectly fair
if that’ all you plan to do, but i don’t think you understand the definition of “contribute”
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's w/ the haughty tone?
Just be clear with me. In what way have I offended?
by 643 on Oct 20, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't listen to them
stop harassing the newbie
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, i'm not...
they scoffed at “fist” after posting “first”
so I said, well, if you’re going to go with it, go big
then they…. asserted their sovereign right to lurk. I think.
I’ll just start other conversations elsewhere, then.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nothing
just saying the simply reading doesn’t qualify as contributing
didn’t mean to come off as haughty
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong...
the whole point of nearly every internet site is readership. That’s what brings in the advertisers that fund this stuff.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 20, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's important
but it still doesn’t fit the definition of contributing
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should never have used math
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This first plus angry discussion is now 80% of the contribution.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Oct 20, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
math is bad, mmkay?

Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 20, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know, I know
I keep making the same mistake
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am .....
….a math atheist, just like Calvin!
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 20, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read between the lines
Taking the words from LaRussa, Moz, DeWitt, Holliday, DeRosa, Smoltz…etc. and trying to read into them says:
1. Holliday: Cards are desperately trying to sign him and think they have a good shot, however, at more money than Pujols is making, and with a no trade clause. Boras has already planted the seeds to the New York media that Holliday would consider the Mets and Yankees to try to drive the price even higher. I give the Cards a better than 50% chance of signing him, and a 100% chance of paying too much if they do.
2. Piniero: Cardinals seem content to let someone else overpay him.
3. DeRosa: Cards say the want him back, but likely only as some sort of super-utility guy or extreme last resort if they fail to sign Holliday. Recent Freese talk tells me that DeRosa has found someone else willing to make him a full time starter and pay him like one.
4. Bullpen: Pretty much everybody returns from last year. Moz has said he is likely only looking at 6 year minor league free agents to compete for jobs. (This is disappointing to me because I want the backup plan when Franklin loses his magic again.)
5. Starting Rotation: Moz has all but given the 5th starting spot to Garcia. I think there is little doubt that the 5th spot will go to a rookie. (Garcia, Boggs, Hawksworth, Walters) The 4th spot is likely to be a veteran signing. Who, depends on whether Holliday signs. No Holliday, more money spent on this role.
6. Smoltz: Cards like Smoltz and he likes the Cards, however, is it too risky to take on a 44 year old starter? He could be the option if the Cards DO sign Holliday.
7. Catcher: LaRue is a great fit and I think the Cards may break with their tradition and keep the same backup for 3 years in a row, but I wouldn’t count on it. Moz is from the school that you need to change some faces every year and the bench is one of the few places where the Cards have moving parts. There are good backups available this offseason and I bet the Cards go get a new one.
8. Infield Bench: Intriguing…eh? Lugo can hit, but can’t field. Greene and Barden can field, but not hit. Thurston can….?….well, stand on the left side of the plate. Lugo has some sort of 2011 vesting option the Cards will want to avoid, even though he is basically free next year. I really would like an upgrade in this area and the best available fit in free agency is probably Craig Counsell.
9. Outfield: Will Ankiel be back?…unlikely, unless he will accept a really cheap contract. (which means nobody else wants him.) If Holliday doesn’t sign, then who? DeRosa Abreu, Bay, Dye, Nady? I doubt the Sox let Bay get away and the same for the Angels and Abreu. I am not a huge fan of Dye or Nady, but both have some offensive clout. This could also be a trade area for the Cards. (Boggs, Ottavino, etc. for someone’s 4th or 5th outfielder.) I like Craig, but the Cards don’t seem willing to give him a shot. I wonder what Vlad Guerrero still has in the tank?
10. Coaching: LaRussa and Duncan come back…McRae, not so much.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
by Elvis on Oct 20, 2009 8:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think is in an option
Who, depends on whether Holliday signs. No Holliday, more money spent on this role.
If we’re not signing Holliday, I’d rather keep all that money as dry powder in case of in-season giveaways again (Alex Rios anyone?). There are too many good, cheap starters out there this offseason to spend money (or offer a contract longer than 2 seasons) on a #2 or #3 guy, especially when Lohse could be that guy and Garcia could be as good as a #4, leaving another rookie to fill in as a #5 starter. We don’t need league average pitchers at every one of those spots, we just don’t need Todd Wellemeyer at the #5, killing the bullpen and the hearts and minds of Cardinals fans everywhere when he takes the mound every fifth day.
You can only spend so much on the pitching staff with a $100M payroll. Losing 5-4 is the same as losing 2-1 — IT’S STILL A LOSS. I
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fourstick
What I wrote there about spending more money on the rotation if they don’t sign Holliday came from Moz’s mouth on the radio last weekend. I agree that this team needs more offense right now more than a slight upgrade to Mitch Boggs.
Moz said if they can’t get something done with Holliday, it is likely they might go in another direction with the funds…like the starting rotation. (This was after saying they would probably only look at 6 year minor league free agents for the bullpen and that Freese is the likely frontrunner at 3rd and that DeRosa would be handy as a multi-position utility guy.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!
by Elvis on Oct 20, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I didn’t mean to imply that I was attacking your idea, I heard the same interview.
I just think it’s a very poor use of funds for the 2010 roster. Nearly any pitcher who commands a big contract is also going to command a multi year deal. If we sign, say, John Lackey to a 4Y$48M contract, by 2012 the team will have $50M+ tied up in starting pitching ALONE. With a payroll of $100M, it’s not good to be spending that kind of money on just four guys out of the twenty five it takes to assemble a big league roster.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then factor in Albert Pujols...
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then is it alright to tie up $45M on two players?
I believe you’ve been advocating signing Holliday, and, with a Pujols extension, you are going to look at nearly the same money spent on 2/25 instead of 4/25 players needed to round out a roster. I personally don’t believe the Cards can support that long term.
by etp_stl on Oct 20, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've also said
that if Holliday wants a contract worth more than $18M AAV that we should walk away. I’ve been pretty clear on that point for quite a while now actually. I think a 6Y$110M deal is about the most that the Cardinals can afford. I actually think that 5Y/$90M or 6Y/$100M is where I would target him. So start lower and work up to that. I don’t think the Mets can afford him and I don’t think he wants to play in the American League either, so I do think that we have some leverage here.
I also don’t think that Pujols is going to get $25M AAV to stay in St. Louis. I think a Holliday signing will display the organizations willingness to win, and I think it gives us some leverage over Albert. He wants to win, so he will take less to stay because it gives the team the opportunity to put the players around him to make the team successful. Tom Brady’s done it, why not Albert Pujols?
Bottom line, this team cannot be competitive on a year in, year out basis maintaining a payroll right at $100M per season. I don’t think that any team can consistently be in the playoff hunt paying less than that. At some point you have to raise payroll in order to make a run at championships for a short period of time (5-6 years). I think this is one of those times.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the 2010 and 2011 Cardinals will be the best Cardinals team for awhile
I think it can make sense to roll the dice on those 2 years.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your last paragraph
gibes with my thinking, which is why i am a lackey advocate, AND i thought it would take more than 4/48. i guess everything begins with the holliday situation and goes from there, but that may not have a timely resolution.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 20, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stick man make sense....
…ugh.
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 20, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, ...
even with the numbers you are advocating, you are still going to have $45M-$50M tied up in 3 players on this team in Carp, Holliday, and Pujols. At $100M payroll, that’s half tied up in three players. That seems like an awful lot. Does anybody know where I could look up the payroll and contract breakdowns for the ‘04-’05 years? I would like to see if they have tied that much up in so few players during their premier years.
by etp_stl on Oct 21, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
04-05
There was one Cardinal team in that era with a starting rotation that, combined, earned less than Roger Clemens. And they turned in a near league leading ERA. The pitching was cheap and effective.
My guess is that the highest paid players in those years were Izzy , Edmonds, and Rolen.
www.mpgillusion.com
by ncgostl on Oct 21, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The last paragraph in my comment is key
At $100M payroll, that’s half tied up in three players.
I’m going to refer you back to my Fanpost from July on these matters. I’ve said for a long time that with the current contracts the team is carrying, coupled with a Pujols extension, there isn’t a way to remain competitive without moving payroll up to around $110M at the very least. The Holliday trade pretty well stated that the front office was interested in doing one of two things: Making a run in 2009 and then rebuilding for a couple of years OR making a run in 2009 and then expanding payroll for the next 3-5 years to ensure that we’ll have one of the best clubs in the NL during that span.
Now, I think if you expand payroll, you can lock up Holliday, Rasmus, and Pujols into long term deals, which paying everyone else in arb increasing amounts, while fishing the market each offseason for a 4th starter or bullpen help that comes cheap. The minors should be able to provide you with at least two starting pitchers in the next 4 years (out of Garcia, Boggs, Lynn, Ottavino and Miller), and should provide one corner outfielder (Jones or Craig), a utility infielder (Descalso, Greene or Kozma), and lots of bullpen help (Sanchez, Bittle, Kelly, and others who will probably be drafted in the next couple of seasons)
You really shouldn’t have to trade away any more good talent to improve the major league club, which means that Luhnow can go to work with accumulating faberge eggs to replace the current crop of ace starting pitchers and all star position players by drafting smart, hitting the Latin American market, and developing players at the minor league level.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 21, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Should the Cards be looking at extending Molina, too?
Yadi’s contract is going to expire after the 2011 season, as well. Don’t they have to look at building this team around Pujols, Rasmus, Molina, and Wainwright? If you want to throw Holliday in there, I can understand that. I think it’s too early to throw Miller in there just yet. What do you think?
by etp_stl on Oct 21, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only for a good team contract.
Even though I have man love fo Yadi, I don’t trust long term catcher deals and honestly I am not one for “good glove no hit” any one. I say no to extension, let’s roll the dice on him.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Oct 21, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't call him "good glove no hit."
He’s had lines of
Year / BA / OBP / SLG / OPS
2007 / .275 / .340 / .368 / .708
2008 / .304 / .349 / .392 / .741
2009 / .293 / .366 / .383 / .749
I’ll take that from a GG catcher any day of the week. He doesn’t provide a lot of power, but he’s still managed to average 50 RBI over the last 5 years. I don’t see the issue with his offense.
by etp_stl on Oct 21, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For 2012
I have the 5-man starting rotation at about 36 million (with Lackey). The difference must be Carp’s 15-million option, which I don’t have as being picked up (though there very well could be a negotiation to keep him at a reduced salary). I have Miller taking that spot in 2012:
Waino, Lackey (4/56, so using 14 AV), Lohse, Garcia, Miller
And in 2013 drop Lohse.
I admit, in 2011 it’s a pricey rotation at 48 mil (42.5 in 2010), but team payroll would not exceed 100. In fact, my payroll for 2010 came to 92 mil, leaving a little dry powder for mid-season reinforcement.
I see 3 spots for 2010 to be filled with free agents: LF, SP, Utility IF
For the bench I would sign Counsell. He’s the only lefty hitter on this mythical bench (warding off any thurston talk), can play anywhere, cost only 1 mil last year, and at age 40 was 2.8 WAR. Hell, I’d give him 2 mil for one year, and hope Descalso could fill that spot in 2011.
For the other two spots I weighed Holliday/Smoltz vs. Lackey/Cameron. The first pair combined for 7.1 WAR last season and the latter for 8.2, Next year they would make 23 mil and 21 mil, respectively, in my scenario (Holliday 18, Smoltzie 5, Lackey 14, and Cameron 7 on a 2/14 deal).
My worry with Holliday is the length and no-trade. I’d rather give him 5/100 than 6/110 to be honest. We have more flexibility with the Lackey/Cameron tandem, and in 2011 Cameron could transition from LF to 4th OF if one of the other guys steps up. (By the way, my bench would consist of Lugo, Counsell, Larue, Craig, and Mather, which is also a pretty flexible group.)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 21, 2009 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you have to weigh pitching and offense separately
For the other two spots I weighed Holliday/Smoltz vs. Lackey/Cameron. The first pair combined for 7.1 WAR last season and the latter for 8.2, Next year they would make 23 mil and 21 mil, respectively, in my scenario (Holliday 18, Smoltzie 5, Lackey 14, and Cameron 7 on a 2/14 deal).
Although WAR gives us a calculation with which we can measure both of them and compare, I don’t think it’s wise to add them up in this fashion to compare combinations of players. Sure, Lackey and Cameron are worth more as a pair (which I don’t think is a fair comparison either, more on that in a second) but one gets a majority of it’s value from pitching and defense, which we already have plenty of, while the other includes a guy who will be worth 5 WAR to our offense. Even if the Lackey/Cameron combo is worth more total, I think the Holliday/Smoltz combo is worth more to the Cardinals.
Also, all of Smoltz’s value last year came after his signing with the Cardinals (1.1 of his 1.6 WAR came in those 38 innings). I find it hard to believe that he won’t be worth at least 2.5 WAR with the Cardinals in 2010 if he was worth 1.1 in 38 innings in 2009. If he’s worth that, and Lackey is healthy and gets a bump from moving leagues, I think they are comparable packages if you evaluate them together.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 21, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i find it odd
that you’re more confident in smoltz’s ability to stay healthy than lackey’s. smoltz has over a decade on lackey, and didn’t smoltz miss more time this season than lackey?
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
by BVHeck on Oct 21, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
....
I find it hard to believe that he won’t be worth at least 2.5 WAR with the Cardinals in 2010 if he was worth 1.1 in 38 innings in 2009.
Really?
by vivaelpujols on Oct 22, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we don't get Holliday..
….then I hope we get Halladay!
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 20, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how come
when i see Pagz and Stavinoha on the list it makes me want to punch something?
Maybe we just need more Craig?

Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 9:16 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
You have a fever...
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the only prescription
Matthew, Mark, Lugo, and John.
by BVHeck on Oct 21, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
before we're done here...
y’all will be wearing gold-plated diapers.
by meat on Oct 20, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So how good a team is this?
Anybody got a quick calculation for win shares, VORP, etc., that predicts how well the team would do with this exact roster? Assume everybody performs at their 2009 level; I see some likely improvements (Lohse, Rasmus, Garcia) and some reversions (Ryan, Franklin, and alas, Carpenter – he’ll still be very good, just not as good as this year). My suspicion is that we are talking about a sub-but-near-.500 core here.
by StanTheManFan on Oct 20, 2009 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Boggs as reliever
If Boggs loses out on the 5th Starter Roulette and ends up in the bullpen, it should not be in the Whipping Boy role, previously held by Thompson. Boggs has wipeout stuff, as capable (if not more so) of overpowering opposing hitters at times as any of our existing relievers. He’s much more in the mold of the 2-inning guy you bring in around the 6th inning, not the guy you pass over for a week or so just in case he needs to come in in the middle of the 4th some time.
What I’m concerned with here is the fact that our impressive seeming $30 million surplus could easily be 80% gone two players later (Lego, #4) with still plenty of shoring up to do:
- With just what’s available in house, your only LH bat off the bench is Jay. Anderson is a better option possibly than Pagnozzi, although less likely to be given the opportunity, and wouldn’t be in a position to PH for anyone other than Molina anyway. I’d rather not go back to having Thursty Joe just to have a lefty on the bench, and I’d prefer to have some thunder here, so this may be an area of spending.
- Nearly all of the other teams that made the postseason had more than one RH power arm who could actually make opposing batters look stupid. Regardless of whether they wouild be slotted in ahead of or behind Franklin in the pen, this is also an area of spending, unless one or more of our young guns can really can morph into these roles (not yet convinced).
- Different pool of money here, but some cash needs to be doled out in severance for McRae and then to get a new/different hitting coach (leave it at that for now).
All I’ve got for now; pulling into the parking lot at work. See you all on the flip side.
Don't argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - anon.
by Solanus on Oct 20, 2009 9:17 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
first of all i hope you didnt do all of that while driving...
secondly, i agree on Boggs. i would like him as a starter but if not then he should be used as a SuperReliever without being relagated to a long/mopup roll. We need more than just Motte as a power arm in the bull pen and Boggs gives us that only with a crap-ton of movement.
thricely, McRae needs to be gone and anyone else will work as long as they believe in getting a good pitch to hit and not swing at the first pitch that is reachable…
quadly, i love Holliday and he is probably the best LF in the league, offensively, and i get the idea of only having Pujols for more years maybe and Carp is getting any better than he is right now so we need to try to win but i see no way we can afford him and Pujols and if you have to chose, Holiday loses that 10 times out of 10.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On Boggs
I also like Boggs and his stuff. But he better get his head right when someone’s on base. He has a WHIP of 1.79 and BB/9 of 5.12 (albeit high BABIP). Pitching scared is analogous to prevent defense in football. It only prevents one from winning.
BTW, I love his interviews. He is very likable.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Oct 20, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm kind of impressed if he did do it while driving
i can’t even walk & chew gum at the same time
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 5:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brett Myers for incentives
would provide a back up plan for a Franklin meltdown. He’s not a good citizen, but he likes to close and his velocity will increase with both legs under him.
I’d pass on Holliday. I’m with those who think they need a high OBP LF to hit in front of Albert, not after. It’s hard to walk him with someone on first. Spend the rest on a 3B not named DeRosa. I know he had a bad wrist, but he still didn’t look very good at bat or in the field and he’s going to be 34 I believe. Freese did not impress me in the minor league championship game when he tried to take a hard ground ball at him to the side and butchered it. Out of Garcia, Hawksworth, Boggs, and McClellen they should be able to get a serviceable #4 and #5. If not, look for help mid-season.
by vinniefromjersey on Oct 20, 2009 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Some questions:
- If you pass on Holliday, who plays LF for the Cardinals next season?
- Who do we sign to play 3B?
Free agents lists here and here
I think you’d be hard pressed to come up with two guys to fill those positions that will be worth more than Holliday and Freese at the same cost. There just aren’t a lot of good options out there to fill those spots this season.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been thinking lately
that the scenario i want to see is get Dero back, and let Freese earn the 3rd base job. Dero can fill in in LF for a season, or 3rd if Freese can’t handle it. Craig can be the wildcard 3rd option for either spot. This will give us more salary for the pitching staff.
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all.
-- Earl Weaver
by Smokin Turkeys on Oct 20, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we do anything but offer Dero arbitration
I might blow a gasket. IMO, Dero should be viewed as a utility player / backup next year, since he’s coming off a wrist surgery. Wrist surgeries are scary, and banking on him to bounce back to 25 HR level is crazy. He might do it, but you simply can’t depend on it. Extending him to a multi-year deal is downright insanity.
by Ray Lankford on Oct 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better bet?
Troy Glaus or David Freese?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a really, REALLY tough question
If they’re both healthy, it’s definitely Glaus, but with health issues factored in, I’d probably go with Freese.
It would be nice to be able to bring Glaus back on a cheap 1 year deal and have Freese as a back up though. I just don’t know if that’s possible. Someone might be willing to gamble on Glaus given the horrible market for 3B this year.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it depends on the dominoes.
DeRosa seems like the obvious contingency plan. He is having surgery and we will offer arbitration (I imagine), so he ought to be on the market until late winter. This allows us to make a run at Holliday. If we fail to sign Holliday, I strongly anticipate re-signing DeRosa and Glaus to one-year, incentive-filled contracts. Then, you have Craig and Freese competing for time and I like the spreading out of that risk. Surely, at least one of DeRosa, Glaus, Freese, and Craig will pan out.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmmm
I like the spreading out of that risk.
Do you work in insurance or finance? I’m guessing insurance since you work in downtown Des Moines…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
No, far from it. But that is a conversation for another time.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally depends on the contract
I would bet that Glaus has a better chance of playing 140 games of above average 3b than Freese.
However; I would hate the see the cardinals give glaus anything but a small contract with incentives. I think Freese would be a better bang for the buck deal.
by Evilfrog on Oct 20, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how feasible would it be to use DeRo and Freese as bench/utility guys?
though… who’s the guy who knows how to play first base, again? is it that guy on the milk carton?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yah
I guess I took “better bet” to mean “more valuable”, and I think Freese will be more valuable because of his opportunity cost of, well, free basically.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd almost amend #1
If you pass on Holliday, who DON’T you pass on? I’ve seen you make this argument in other threads but it’s an important one to reiterate. We aren’t talking about generic outfielder X. We’re talking about a player who projects as a 5.5 WAR player next year conservatively. Based on that, he’s worth about $140M over the next 6 years.
You have about 1-2 players of this caliber hit the market in a given year — if you want to add via free agency, this is the type of player to spend on.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 20, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I just don’t like posting the same stuff over and over again, but I should have linked to my comment in Flim’s Fanpost at least.
As I said: He’s has the fifth highest WAR of any position player in baseball over the last three years, is 29 years old and in the middle of his prime, and we might be able to get him for less than $20M per season. I agree that there’s a point where we have to walk away because we can’t win a bidding war with the New York clubs, but to just pass altogether is a bad idea — at that point, we become the Marlins: build from within, trade away anyone who’s going to make big money, never sign free agents.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Direct Link didn't work
it’s about 1/3 of the way down in a reply to Cody G and etp_stl.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do people just not understand Matt Holliday is really good at baseball?
I agree with what Fourstick has been saying for two days. If you don’t want to spend $$ on Matt Holliday who would you spend $$ on.
I think it has been stated many places a fair deal would be $20MM per season for Matt Holliday. The only question is how much above $20MM are you willing to go and does he like STL enough to maybe take $17MM – $19MM a year instead.
It seems like people vastly underrate Matt Holliday/have some crazy paranoia.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 20, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with this
i have been vocal about other options in LF other than Holliday but it is not because i dont want him, he is obviously the best LF available and probably in the entire game. It because we cant out bid other teams for him. we should try to sign him for sure but the Cardinals cannot over extend themselves and not leave room to fix the other gaps. at the same time the need to be exploring other options in LF or 3B with getting all of our eggs in that basket, to use a tired cliché.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you would agree
that we should attempt to sign him first, and if that fails, keep the other options in mind, right?
The OP here was stated that he simply wanted to “pass on Holliday” as if there were other, cheaper players out there who could give us similar value. I was simply trying to determine who those players were. It’s a really, really poor year for free agents.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, kinda
you have to try, MO should probably lose his job if he doesnt. but i dont buy the St. Louis is magical theory and it will come down to money and we cannot win that game. so you have test other waters at the same time, imo.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All-In
The Cards have to negotiate, and, at some point in those negotiations, go all-in, meaning, offer every dollar the LLC can afford to offer.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Front Office
that is why the front office has people who understand stats and everythign very well like the site adminstrators and some posters on this board.
They determine what a player is worth based on his WAR, WOBA and what not. Then they determine how much above is estimated value they are willing to go. The front office can’t be dumb enough to thing that Matt Holliday will come to them under his estimated value. The only question is how much above his estimated value are they willing to spend.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 20, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd bet a dollar the front office has people
Who understand saber stuff better than anyone on this board. At the very least they have access to more detailed data.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Oct 20, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only a dollar?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Oct 20, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he's like me...
that’s all he’s got left after the NFL betting last week….lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously...
Oakland!??!?!?
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
by Taskmaster on Oct 20, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
I hit a 4 team parlay last weekend, so I’m probably good for the year in terms of being out of the red, but last week was BRUTAL.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet on the Giants
and that went miserably. Guess I can’t say the Saints are overrated now.
At any rate, go Colts
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
by Taskmaster on Oct 25, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I remember reading an interview where MO said they use the typical SABER stuff
AND some Cardinal metrics that they put together themselves. I’ve never been a math person or an outrageous stat geek, but I would love to sit down with MO and have a few beers while he explains what Cardinal metics they have and how they have influenced their deals over the last couple years.
by Ray Lankford on Oct 20, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll sit down with Mejdal
give the opportunity.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 20, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
holliday's actually value
for ’07, ’08 and ’09 were $32.2MM, $28MM and $25.4MM
nobody is going to pay holliday above his actual value. it’s more a question of how close the cards are willing to go
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
per
FanGraph’s WAR, btw
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll play devil's advocate again
Does it not worry anybody that those $32.2MM, $28MM, and $25.4MM values were in his age 28, 29, and 30 seasons? And that they’re declining? And that on a percentage basis his fielding numbers are falling precipitously? And that his body type is one of those that tends not to age very well?
I see several warning signs that I would not be willing to handwave away at the cost of $16-MM- $20MM per. FWIW, before this season, PECOTA had Holliday’s WARPs as 4.5 (this season, and then from 2010-2015 as 3.5, 3.6, 2.8, 2.1, 1.6, 1.2.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Oct 20, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Age 27, 28, and 29 seasons.
Holliday is entering his Age 30 season. WARP and WAR are not analogous. If I’m not mistaken, WARP undervalues the walk, which is something Holliday is good at drawing.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right. . .
just noticed my age mistake. The point still stands, though. It is entirely possible that Holliday may have peaked, and his next contract will be for a decline phase of indeterminate severity.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Oct 20, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's a good point
if you sign him for 6+ years, you’re probably overpaying come the end of the contract
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course you are.
Every one of the true FA, 6-10 year contracts result in overpaying by the end of them, so that really shouldn’t cloud the decision on Holliday, specifically. It you aren’t comfortable with that, then you either shouldn’t sign these types of contracts, or you should trade the player with 2 yrs left on the contract.
Make no mistake, the Cards are going to overpay Pujols by the end of his next extension, too.
by etp_stl on Oct 21, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My concern. . .
is that we would be overpaying him in years 2, 3, and 4.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Oct 21, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you can count this year as a down year
His first four months was in a new league, new ballpark, etc. When he came back to the NL, he posted a 1.021 OPS in the last two months of the season and was worth over half of his value for the 6 month season during that third of it.
He could easily be a 7 WAR player next year in St. Louis.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On what basis?
The guy has only been a 7 WAR player once in his career.
by SouthsideCardsFan on Oct 21, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
He was an 8 WAR player in the year you’re referring to, and my guess is that he was a 7 WAR player in 2006 as well, because his UZR for that year looks skewed. He’s been a better than average defender every year except for that one. You add half a win to his total for that year to bring him to league average and he’s a 7 WAR player.
I also don’t think we’ve seen his best baseball yet. He could top out much like Jim Edmonds did in his age 30-34 seasons. Edmonds averaged about 6.5 WAR over those years, peaking at 8.1 WAR in 2004 and battling injuries every year after that.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 21, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean WARP, right?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's got to be priority
If you go around signing 4th outfielders as backup, that just gives him incentive to go somewhere else. It’s all a big guessing game, but there’s not a single LF on the market that comes anywhere near comparable value, unless the Rays don’t exercise Crawford’s option……and then I might be as interested in Crawford as I am with Holliday. I just don’t see any chance of him being available.
I don’t buy the “Operation Midwest Nice” theory either, but you have to admit that you could do a lot worse in terms of playing for fans, and many players have said they have enjoyed playing for St. Louis because of that aspect.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can see crawford available
after rays exercise his option. just don’t think we have what it would take (walrus) to get him.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 20, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question isn't his baseball value, ...
the question is whether or not the Cardinals are in a market that can sustain having two of these guys on the same team. Do they instead have to rely on having above average players across the board rather than two outstanding players? I’m concerned that this organization is not going to be able to just step-change the payroll from $95M to $115M-$125M in 1-2 years. If they can’t, then signing Holliday leaves them with very little flexibility to address if the 3B, CL, or SP experiments fail.
by etp_stl on Oct 21, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forget about Myers
He’s a jerk. The Cards like to sign guys that are good in the clubhouse. I can’t see them having any interest in him.
If you want a Franklin back-up plan, Smoltz to the Closer role is it. He loves it here. Even in his 40s, I trust his durability more than Myers, and the guy’s a class act, gamer, fan fave, post-season stud and future HOFer.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 3:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Myers is getting away with that crap
in Chris Carpenter’s clubhouse.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so why does Albert get away with it?
heyoooooo
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I know. low blow
but I do wonder which players clearly don’t get Carpenter beat-downs, and if that correlates with TLR’s “point system.”
Like you’d think Carp would speak to Yadi at some point about that quote-endquote running thing.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think anyone under a certain number of points
goes on the “luggage list” — and sometimes you end up there anyway (Ludwick).
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want to see this effin' stat, La Russa
it affects a good portion of his decisions, after all…. we should be privy!
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
FWIW,
you just got a point.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan Fucking Ludwick
by RiverRat on Oct 20, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony just called
he says I’ll be considered next in line for spring training
then I realized he never said for what
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
fifth starter material being, generally, the stuff they made my Wal-Mart TV stand out of
by salukihoops on Oct 20, 2009 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Colonel certainly was.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts on the Chart
1. To understand whether the Cards have a shot to resign Holliday and extend Pujols, we need to know at what level the Cards will cap their payroll. If it is closer to the $90 million of the past few years (prior to the July splurge), then the team only has about $20 million to spend on free agents. If the Cards want to keep both Holliday and Pujols for the long term, the budget must consistently be over $100 million. If so, the the Cards might be able to pull off both deals ($20 million for Holliday and an extra $10 million on season for Albert).
2. Resigning DeRosa would be a waste of money, scary (coming off of writ surgery) and jeprodises the long term potential of singing both Albert and Holliday. Moving forward a majority league minimum infield should be the organization’s long term plan for addressing any potential payroll crunch. Besides, its not like there are better FA options out there.
3. The big concern at the end of the year was offensive consistency, with Ludwick being the key to taking the offense to the next level of productivity, thereby providing a second legigiment threat to take advantage of teams walking Albert (for the moment I will assume that Schu and Rasmus in the 1&2 spots offer enough OPB in front of Pujols). The difficult question for the Cardinals this offseason is deciding whether Ludwick offers the “danger” needed in the 5 hole. If the Cards decide Ludwick is a AAAA player with one great year and therefore cannot be counted on as the third amigo, then the Cards should explore other options in the outfield, including trading Ludwick if he has value, and singing a second tier FA (Andruw Jones or Mike Cameron) to fill in at the position for a year or two.
by JMedwick on Oct 20, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ludwick's '09
.265/.329/.447/.775/22/97
that’s a AAAA year?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you rate years
like they rate financial bonds, yes. But he’s the definition of a solid corner outfielder, certainly not a AAAA one.
You want a AAAA corner outfielder? I give you this guy….rakes in AAA yet can’t hit major league pitching.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stav
I agree with your pt. I think Stav actually showed some plate discipline last year and laid off breaking stuff. But no, I am not rooting for Stav if we can finding better bench options.
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Oct 20, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
obviously I want Holliday back and more
but I do think this is a good solid base on which to build for next year.
by ADMDrayson on Oct 20, 2009 10:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Someone I've heard nothing about: Adrian Beltre
Wouldn’t say Beltre at 3B + Mike Cameron be better than Holliday + 3BPuPuPlatter?
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Oct 20, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What is Beltre's health status?
I would think we could get a .300 OBP (.683 OPS) from Freese and defense that is roughly similar for a small fraction of the cost. Now, if he OPSes in the high .700s, as he has for his career, he is likely a 3.5-4.0 WAR player, likely at under $10MM in salary, which is a nice value. The question, then, is: which Beltre are you signing? 4.1-WAR ’08 or 2.3-WAR ’09? I think I might prefer Glaus on a one-year deal, but am more than open to being persuaded into the Beltre camp.
As for Cameron, if Holliday doesn’t sign, it’d be a great signing, especially if it’s only at $5MM or so. What a value!
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer Freese, at the price.
We’re probably going to have to go cheap somewhere, so it might as well be where we have our best ‘cheap options’.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Oct 20, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
independent of the specific players, spreading your resources *should* make more sense
If it costs the same to upgrade your lineup by, say 40 RAR at either one position or distributed across two, I’m pretty sure the latter is the better option. We tend to treat runs/war as linear (i.e., you can just add them all together), because it’s easy to do, and fairly accurate. However, due to the cooperativity in run scoring, I’d imagine that it’s slightly better to upgrade at multiple positions if the overall net RAR is the same.
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So...
What you’re saying, and let me know if I’m misinterpreting something, is that you’d rather have two .350 wOBA players than one .400 wOBA player and one .300 wOBA player, even though they account for the exact same amount of runs?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If true...
can you prove that the two .350 wOBA guys are more valuable to a team than the other two, assuming defense is a wash?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
out of curiosity
I ran two simulated lineups which had exactly the same rate stats through that handy lineup tool many moons ago. lineup A had a complete 1-9 lineup of average bats – lineup B had an albert pujols with surrounding cast. The total average/OBP/SLG was the same for the two lineups. Lineup B outperformed lineup A by a significant margin. I don’t remember numbers – or even the website that has that tool – but it was rather informative.
by cdb on Oct 20, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
but that’s a rather significant deviation from an actual lineup though.
There’s got to be a way to check this, either by chaining or linear weighting, to get a correlative approximation of the differences that I proposed above.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea, this is certainly a mark against my argument,
but for the reasons you stated, it’s hard to know how to interpret it
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably david pinto's lineup generator
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Oct 20, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is a really tough thing to even think about proving because it is entirely about context
That said, I’m happy to take a stab at exploring it. The experiment I’m imagining would be as follows:
- Start with an average lineup*
- Choose two players from the lineup**
- Add/subtract the same amount of wOBA points from the two players
- Optimize the lineup ordering
- Simulate to determine the number of runs scored***
*The definition of “average lineup” is the thing that makes this really hard. I’m inclined to start with the Card’s lineup posted above using their 2008 numbers.
**Another tough context part is which positions in the lineup to consider. Again, for current relevance, I’d probably choose LF and 3B.
***Anyone know of a good free simulator?
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent
wOBA sensitivity analysis
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Oct 20, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This would be a good idea for a FanPost
Are there simulators out there that use wOBA? I think it’s important to use wOBA because you can translate it directly into runs and wins.
Where the hell is VEP when you need him? He usually has answers for stuff like this.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah...I already know about that one
I’m looking for one that specifically uses wOBA. That’s basically just using OPS to predict runs, and I don’t think it scales very well, since OPS really can’t be turned directly into runs like wOBA can.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doing a simulation is going to be very hard
The only one I know if is the baseball musings one that Sleepy posted above; however, I know that people have had problems with this before. Any simulator is going to have a lot of errors and glitches with it. I have no idea how Pinto organizes his, nor could I make sense of it if I did, but I think that their would be some problems with it.
So I have two suggestions I guess. 1 would be to take multiple simulations using different players with the same OPS’ and average out the results. That would hopefully cancel out any glitches.
2 would be to do it mathematically. This would take some work, but I believe it would be possible. For example, the game can be broken down to 24 base-out states, multiplied by 9 hitters = 216 total states. You could look at each of them subbing in a players projections. On second thought, that would probably take you forever, but it would be “right”.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or I guess there is a third option
Look at it empirically. Bracken – you have retrosheet right? Look at all instances in major league history, or whatever time frame you want, with your qualifications and see which lineup scores more runs.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good call
I honestly hadn’t even considered using real data; too bogged down in the theory
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to be careful about how you would do that
I would use some sort of projections.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea, it definitely has it's own pitfalls
but if there’s enough data, it seems like it should be easier. Among the added variables that need to be averaged over are the fact that the lineups change and that the opponent changes.
From the simulator side, if one can get an apprporiately weighted set of PA outcome probabilities (BB,1B,2B,3B,HR,etc) for a given wOBA, it wouldn’t be too hard to mock up a simple simulator. I don’t think that’s an easy sampling problem, unfortunately.
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in short, yes, that's what I'm saying
though it is based entirely off of intuition about the behavior of a linear fit to a non-linear system (which is an admittedly dangerous thing to do).
My statement is centered on the idea that the linear fit (e.g. for wOBA) is designed to accurately determine the value of an individual player (presumably in a league average context). Assuming that this linearization is accurate, it likely won’t account for the nonlinearities in lineup construction (arising from the fact that multiple events are generally needed to score a run). I’m pretty sure that lineup construction favors multiple average players as opposed to one very strong player and a bunch of scrubs.
There are two failure modes for my statement:
- The linearization for wOBA actually isn’t good enough, far from the mean, so it’s nonlinear behavior also needs consideration (e.g. the .400 wOBA player is actually more valuable than the metric suggests)
- My expectation of the nonlinear effects in lineup construction is incorrect (e.g. top heavy lineups score more runs than balanced ones)
This post was just meant to restate my position. I’ll address the “proving” piece further down.
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beltre
From the Straussie article in which Freese is annointed the frontrunner at third base:
Mozeliak insists economics aren’t the primary motivation for entering the offseason with Freese as presumptive favorite to inherit the position. However, retaining pending free agent left fielder Matt Holliday or a similar hitter would seriously impact the club’s financial flexibility.
There currently is little thought given to a free agent class offering Adrian Beltre, Chone Figgins and Pedro Feliz at the position. Freese instead appears the man for the moment to address a yearlong riddle.

"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, i like the whale
perfect after the unicorn…hopefully, tomorrow we get a panda!
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why wait till tomorrow

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/275909/pablocake.gif btw
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea!
they are so cute! though i hear not very agile…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
born on the exact same day as Clobby
guess Boromir will need his own cake
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh please.
He doesn’t get distracted by cake. Except at 3 in the morning.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Oct 20, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha yeah
I mean, Panda would eat all the cake. so Corky will need his own.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now we know why he's so skinny.
Panda ate all of his birthday cakes.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Oct 20, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WASTING AWAY
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Can See...
….Panda and Carlos Silva gettin’ all greased up and sumo wrestlin’ over that last piece of cake at the bottom of the ice box…
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 20, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Po begs to differ with you
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Oct 20, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beltre
Joker: Beltre caught my attention on the FA list, too. As I perused the list, I thought it was very Cards’-friendly. Defense is so often over-looked (it’s just not sexy enough for media/fans, I suppose). Beltre is one of the best 3B gloves around. Beltre + Ryan would make a formidable pair on the left IF. His bat is good enough. Also, he’s a Type B, so we wouldn’t even lose a draft pick.
In fact, the only 3B Type A is Glaus. So we’re really set-up well for 3B signings in the off-season. If Glaus walks, we receive Type A compensation. If he doesn’t we’ll sign him cheap and given his personality, I would imagine he’ll work himself back into shape, catch up to fastballs again, and be productive enough until Freese is ready to make the jump.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 3:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
you have to offer arbitration to Glaus (won't happen)
To get compensation
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he's type b anyway
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/10/elias-rankings-update.html
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then Cot's needs to update
If Glaus is a B. Enlighten me. I know Type A players must be in the top 15% of their positional category, but how is their ranking based? Is it based on the previous year’s performance? That would explain Glaus’ drop from A to B.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 4:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
previous two years' performance
with a grace period for dl visits that glaus went well beyond
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right, flim.
Rather large oversight on my part. We’d have to offer him like eleventy-billion dollars. So, yeah. Forget about DP compensation.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 4:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Beltre
I’m all for signing Adrian Beltre.
IMO we should sign Beltre and Placido Polanco (Pujols buddy) and sit back and enjoy the best infield defense ever. Then we could move Skip back to the OF or sign a semi cheap LF as well. With that IF defense even mediocre pitchers would look great.
Granted moving Skip again would suck for him, but he’d never be as good as Polanco and bringing back Polanco I think increases our chances of signing Pujols long term.
by DJ87 on Oct 20, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Polanco is very interesting.
Although, I doubt we do it. Why spend $4MM at second base when we have a cheaper option already installed? Plus, there is the TLR factor. If he returns, wouldn’t sign Polanco be an admission that the Schumaker Experiment didn’t work? I think that Skip is a 2.5-WAR second baseman next year and that the marginal increase in production from Polanco doesn’t justify the price tag. Now, if Placido is playing third base, like the pre-Rolen days, it would be intriguing.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no thanks on Skip anywhere in the OF.
Colby is a better baseball player so Skip should never play CF.
Ryan Ludwick is a better baseball player so Skip should not be in RF.
Skip would probably be the worst LF in the national league. You can’t have a LF who hits 4 HR a year
by ICbirdfan on Oct 20, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially one who isn't that great at defense and without a DH to pick up the slack.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more...
there is a good reason Skip now plays 2B. It’s because he’s NOT a valuable OF.
by Willie McGee's Twin on Oct 20, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Polanco is also a type A
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
by Taskmaster on Oct 20, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
Then, keeping walking to the next window…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i doubt tigers offer arb
they are trying to cut payroll to improve in other areas
but yes if offered, then pass on him for sure
by FunkeeC on Oct 20, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I love Placido, but no way do I give up draft picks to sign him. I also love the way Skip progressed at 2B. His build/athletic skills are perfect for the spot. The kid’s got a bright future there. I wouldn’t mess with it.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 3:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Polanco....
…at 3rd??
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 20, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so... this is just me being a Fangraphs noob...
if I put up these 2009 numbers, can you pick out who Skip is, and who Placido is?
DPR RngR ErrR
0.6 6.9 4.5
1.0 -9.1 0.3
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
skip
is absolutely the 2b next year. no reason to consider wasting money on a filled position
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i do not want to give up 2 draft pick for placido
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we only give up one
but yeah
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you give up
a first round draft pick for Placido Polanco? I sure wouldn’t.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops...already been discussed...
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Julio's bounty
Perhaps I’m forgetful here, but do the Cardinals still owe Lugo even the major-league minimum when the Red Sox are picking up all of his salary?
by edgewin on Oct 20, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just me...
…but doesn’t this look like a position that the team wants to be in at the beginning of every offseason? This is by far the best roster matrix that I can remember starting the begining of the ofseason.
1. Solid core of players to build on.
2. NO DEAD MONEY!
3. No major injuries.
4. Plenty of cash to spend.
5. Lots of potential draft picks.
You have to give it to Mo and the rest of the front office. They are in near perfect shape entering this offseason.
by BigJawnMize on Oct 20, 2009 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
- is particularly great. If Lohse is the worst money on the books, I’m pretty happy.
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's what I get for not previewing
my “#2” turned into "1. "
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's always painful
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Oct 20, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice. ow.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least
his #1 didn’t turn into #2. that would be pretty bizarre and really suck
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps you should see a colorectal surgeon or a urologist....
I’m just sayin’
"Baseball has been good to me since I quit trying to play it." - Whitey Herzog
by Bring Back Tommy Herr! on Oct 20, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
and yet people are still giving Mozeliak C’s and D’s on his report card.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he did trade away brett wallace, jess todd and yp
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that said,
i believe i gave him a c+ or b-
i was all in favor of the derosa trade, which didn’t work out and i was against the holliday trade which worked out better than i thought but was still a huge loss of value
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I look at it
like this:
- He traded from perceived depth to fill positions that were literally replacement level.
- He didn’t take on any albatross contracts to do so.
- He’s trimmed out the fat in the organization so that we really don’t have any horrible contracts on our books and kept the team competitive while doing it.
- Wallace was never going to get a chance to play MLB here — if he wasn’t traded for Holliday he would have been dealt for someone else.
- If we re-sign Holliday I think it was more than worth it, because I’m guess we have no shot at signing him without the trade, and we’d be giving up our #1 pick to do it…and we’ll get a #1 pick if he doesn’t sign here. Considering how well Luhnow has drafted the past two drafts, that #1 pick could be a very valuable player or trade asset in the coming years.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I think Wallace was drafted
To be a trade piece
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mets
with all this talk about #1 picks you better hope the Mets don’t sign him. Their #1 is protected.
by Hal Laniers Pants on Oct 20, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they're as broke as some claim, they're a non-factor.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
trading for holliday
and signing holliday are separate issues. i think holliday could have been acquired without giving up holliday and if not, there were better options available that wouldn’t have cost us wallace
Wallace was never going to get a chance to play MLB here — if he wasn’t traded for Holliday he would have been dealt for someone else.
yeah. c-
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd give up Holliday to get Holliday any day of the week
Seems like an even trade to me
Testicle-exploding shit storms, to date: T.E.S.S '08, T.E.S.S '09
by bjork24 on Oct 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like a no brainer
Although you’d have to consider the opportunity cost in trading away Holliday when all we are getting in return is Holliday.
by Ray Lankford on Oct 20, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giving up Holliday to get Holliday is really like a big mid-season trade for FREE!
You know, Dan, it really is.
Testicle-exploding shit storms, to date: T.E.S.S '08, T.E.S.S '09
by bjork24 on Oct 20, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you rather have any of the middle infielders or starting pitchers
that were drafted in the 5 spots after us in that first round? He was the best player available and already good enough to be a trade piece by 2010. It was a smart pick on our part.
Better to have very good prospects who don’t fit organization needs than to have middling prospects that fit organizational needs. We have plenty of those (Tyler Greene, Kozma, etc.)
You are extremely good at arguing against the decisions others make, but really terrible at coming up with your own conclusions that have actual supporting evidence.
I’m not getting into the discussion of cost anymore — you make too many subjective inferences to make it a worthy conversation to have.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not contending
that the drafting of wallace was a bad move. i think the evaluation of wallace having no place in the org is just wrong. with his bat, he could have stuck at 3b for a couple years or more (see: pablo sandoval) and been plenty valuable. if not, then we can trade him when his value is much higher and get a better return than a matt holliday rental.
You are extremely good at arguing against the decisions others make, but really terrible at coming up with your own conclusions that have actual supporting evidence.
there’s probably some accuracy in that, despite how snide you were attempting to be
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my mind,
he was the contingency plan for if Pujols decides not to re-sign with St. Louis.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also think that
David Freese and Daniel Descalso made him more and more irrelevant as a potential 3B (in the mind of the organization, anyway) as they improved their stock over the last couple of seasons.
I wouldn’t project Wallace to have 30 HR potential in the majors — I think he’s going to be a 20 HR guy with a lot of double’s power. If he reaches his potential I think he’s a .300/.370/.470 type of player: basically Troy Glaus in 2008 with worse defense at 3B.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that's the case
then we got a really good deal.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think he has 30 hr potential w/in 5 years
either way, i’ll take an .840 ops with slightly below average defense all day
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Silly stat nerd,
haven’t you heard that your beloved “Moneyball” is dead?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was about to read that
but then i saw it was by buzz bissenger and not fiction…you almost got me you silly rabbit!
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to pick it apart in a Fanpost,
but I haven’t had the time. What with it being Anthony Reyes Day Eve and all…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i feel like there needs to be carolers for this occasion...
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the "logic" in that article is just amazing
Market inefficiences are harder and harder to find, one of the ironies of Beane’s brief but successful reliance on on-base percentage from 2000 to 2002 is that it has made players with such skill far too expensive for his pocketbook.
Beane’s ideas were so on the mark that the rest of the league has adopted them. Therefore, Beane failed.
by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The logic is horrible
but the premise is correct: You can’t simply exploit market inefficiencies in a closed, finite market like baseball and be successful forever at the same payroll numbers. Once the big boys are on to your game, they’ll exploit the same things and then price you out of the market.
That’s essentially what’s happened to Beane the past 3 seasons.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats why you have to
constantly find the inefficiencies and Beane has (Defense and Speed) but it just worked out the way he wanted it to. There will always be something undervalued or else everyone would make $15M/yr.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem
is that teams catch on to this quicker now because the information is so freely available. FWIW, the market inequalities relating to speed and defense are not near as pronounced as the market inequalities relating to OBP were in 2000-2002.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HITf/x is pretty much going to do defense in too
I don’t think there’s going to be a whole lot of arguing that Derek Jeter couldn’t get to an 72 mph ground ball hit 16 feet to the left of where he was positioned, but Boog not only got to it he fielded it between his legs and threw the ball around his back just for fun.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Oct 20, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question will be
is whether teams are going to reward great defense with significantly higher paychecks. We’ve yet to see that.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still personally highly value defense
I think we should only sign players with plus defense
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But should we PAY more for it
That’s the question.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should pay as little as possible for it obviously
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of the reseasons I like it so much
Seems to be undervalued
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my idea is to create the best defensive team possible
half the pieces are already there, since Ryan, Pujols, Molina, and Rasmus are all ++ defenders
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 20, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beane's problem was he didn't own the IP
The ideas were Bill James’, not his own. As a result, anyone could take advantage of them. I think the Red Sox have tried to lock up the IP (Intellectual Property) by hiring James, but I think all of the big ideas are out in the public.
by thepainguy on Oct 20, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Red Sox seemingly are past all that too
Given their top secret pitcher health stuff——specifically they super duper shoulder testing program everyone rants and raves about. They may or may not be any more successful at keeping pitchers healthy but that seems to be the next frontier.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Oct 20, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but they'll still tip pitches?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moneyball was written 6 years ago, I think
I highly doubt that Beane has not adapted his strategies since then. Now it seems to be trading veterans to get a boatload of prospects. That hasn’t worked out yet, but have you seen his rotation recently?
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
they could be very good in a couple of seasons, providing they avoid the injury bug.
I just don’t think you can have sustained success over a long period of time while being a mid-to-lower payroll club. Oakland’s been very good at getting bang for their buck, but they haven’t been consistently good since 2000-2002.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah obviously
Payroll is always going to have a massive correlation to W%. I think it was .65 according to Tango. However, if you are able to play above the win level that is projected via your payroll, that’s a good thing.
How do you think Beane would do if he had a 150 million dollar payroll. Answer: Theo.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you know that the reason the A's scored 947 runs in 2000 was because of Mulder, Hudson and Zito?
H/T hawerchuk.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See,
I shouldn’t have posted this. You’re stealing my material!
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in my mind too
so when they dealt him I figured apu re-upping was cut-and-dried. recent days’ banter has caused me to nervously rethink that. I was kind of in the middle on the holliday trade, only slightly opposed, but will hate that deal not if holliday walks but if apu follows.
(Of course, maybe I rate walrus much higher than others, but he has otherworldly bat speed and while raz hitting 30 hrs. would seemingly not surprise anyone, myself included, walrus gets the short end of the power stick, IMO.)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 20, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't being snide at all
Just stating a fact from having countless arguments with you about this particular topic. It’s easy to tear down someone else’s idea, it’s much harder to come up with a better one that supports evidence to the contrary.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what more can i say
about brett wallace and the holliday trade that i haven’t said numerous times before?
if beane won’t let go of holliday without brett wallace, there other options. starting with josh willingham. sorry, but it seems pretty pointless to go into in depth at this time. brett wallace is not in the cardinal organization
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems pointless
because we’ve been here before, over and over again, and it always comes back to the same two points:
- Matt Holliday was available and was traded for Wallace and two other players.
- None of the other players that you’ve listed in any of your arguments (including Willingham) were traded, have since been traded, or have even been RUMORED to have been traded, yet you insist that they “were available” and “at a lower price than Matt Holliday.”
You can’t prove any of #2, it’s complete fabrication in your own mind. So why is it so hard to understand my skepticism of the entire argument?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a quick search
of mlbtr for “willingham” returns plenty of results of rumored trades and inquiries. maybe you’re right and he was never available, but it’s also a fabrication of plenty of the minds of mlb gms along with my own.
i used willingham as an example because he was my favorite for the job, but there were others that could have been gotten, some rotting away in mil systems, some in our own and others that were dangled that would have provided better value than brett wallace for matt holliday
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If's and But's and Maybe's
are all speculation. I bet I could put an search into MLBTR for “Pujols” and it would return something too, but he wasn’t on the market.
I get 4 results for Willingham in all of 2009, and all are rumors about GM’s possibly asking for Willingham’s availability Nothing from the Nats end of it. He’s a desirable player given his contract and skills and he’s on a going nowhere team, so naturally teams are asking about him. That doesn’t mean he was on the market, or that he was rumored to be on the market by the Nationals.
“Pujols” returns 9 entries on the MLBTR site, and one of them is a link to Ken Rosenthal’s article about Albert being traded. Seems there’s rumors about Pujols because, well, he’s a desirable player to acquire about!
MLBTR is a news aggregation site, and they don’t vet all of their sources, they just post stuff that they find in newspapers, news sites, and other blogs. I wouldn’t give the Post – Dispatch a ton of cred on their rumors about the Cardinals dealings, but that’s what you’re referencing.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're still missing the point
i shouldn’t have to spell out to you in very specific terms that brett wallace for matt holliday was not a good value and we could have done better
since you’re dead set on having a pointless argument that you chose to recreate for whatever reason, then fine
nate mclouth
melky cabrera
nyjer morgan
jerry hairston jr
off the top of my head
are any of them as good as matt holliday? is that even what i’m contending? what do i even mean by “value”
or of course matt holliday could have still been acquired if it didn’t involve giving up one of the best hitting prospects in the game. or do i have to submit to your logic that since mo didn’t pull it off, it was unpossible?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was pretty widely reported that
Billy Beane wasn’t interested in a deal with the Cardinals unless it involved either Rasmus or Wallace. If neither of those two players were involved, he was happy to take the picks at the end of the season.
You keep throwing out speculation to refute speculation. We got the best left fielder in the game for three prospects that weren’t going to help us down the stretch. You can say we didn’t get good “value” but the point of the trade wasn’t to get 6 years of value for Matt Holliday — the point of the trade was to get the highest return over the final two months of the 2009 season for the next 6 season’s worth of Brett Wallace, and I think Mo succeeded in doing just that.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You keep throwing out speculation to refute speculation
three prospects that weren’t going to help us down the stretch.
heh.
the wide report was that beane wanted two first round pick types in return. any two of descalso, kozma, greene, henley, jones, craig, hamilton, lynn, mort, smith, solano, etc should have been able to get it done and then he gets the shane peterson throw in. if that’s not good enough, he can keep matt holliday.
sure he probably got the best single player on the market for the best prospect in the system and change, but that’s not inherently a win, is it?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a win
if your goal is to improve the 2009 team down the stretch of the 2009 season. Which is what happened. Period.
It’s obvious that your goal wasn’t to do that. Your goal is to win every trade in terms of talent. Which will never happen when trading for a veteran star player and valuing the talent at the time of the trade. Ever. In a million years.
You honestly think that Beane would have taken Solano, Hamilton, and Peterson gets that done? You’re fucking insane. Kozma, Greene, and Peterson? Get real — we couldn’t trade those three guys for the corpse of Ted Williams, much less the best player on the trade market. Descalso, Jones and Peterson? Maybe, but I think Descalso and Jones actually have a better chance of helping the Cardinals than Wallace did in the long run.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
It’s a win if your goal is to improve the 2009 team down the stretch of the 2009 season.
It’s obvious that your goal wasn’t to do that
alright man
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand why this is funny
But ok.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got to get it off the tuna can some how.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan Fucking Ludwick
by RiverRat on Oct 20, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did succeed
And it still wasn’t a good deal.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not
but it all depends on what your goal is. It’s obviously not a win in the long term. But it was a win in the short term.
I have a decision to make: I can invest $50,000 for retirement, knowing it will be worth more later, or I can buy a Shelby Mustang right now. The retirement money will be nice later on, but the Mustang will get me laid a lot more right now. So what’s my goal?
If it’s to get laid a lot right now, I buy the Mustang.
If it’s to retire at age 55 and travel the world, then I invest the money.
You can argue that either one is stupid or idiotic, but the point is that how you argue it depends on the goal you’re trying to achieve.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a balance obviously
Was our improvement in the short term worth the anti-improvement (I legti can’t think of a better word) in the long term? I don’t think so.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The correct answer is buy the Shelby now
Than marry a rich women. You should net a couple draft picks after you break up.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dick in the toaster theory.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan Fucking Ludwick
by RiverRat on Oct 20, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you
understand the point of that theory, because this is not related to that at all.
That theory states that a bad decision can look good based on hindsight. You’re describing the opposing argument with that theory better than you are mine. I’m saying that Holliday was the best bat available at the deadline and that Mo acquired him to boost offensive production — whether it worked or not is irrelevant, but it did happen to work.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 21, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dick in a toaster is not a theory at all.
It’s a thought experiment used to demonstrate the common fallacious reasoning that privileges results over process (Hey, if it worked, it can’t be all bad, right? Wrong. Or conversely, it didn’t work, therefore we must fire Wedge and Shapiro. Also wrong).
The experiment concludes that putting your dick in a toaster (process) is never a good idea, no matter how hot the paramedic might be (results).
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Oct 21, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming you buy the mustang
the mistake would not be that you didn’t invest, it’s that you had a bad goal.
The same applies here. It’s not about whether trading for Holliday was the best way to reach the short term goal. It’s about whether the short term goal is worth sacrificing the long term for.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Oct 20, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly my point
How your define success is how you define the goal in mind.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 21, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morgan and McClouth would have been much better than Holliday
value, not talent.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 20, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They also
required more in talent to get, if you put them both together in one package based on how much they cost.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you see what atlanta gave up for mclouth?
no brett wallace, that’s for damn sure. and if i remember correctly, morgan was a straight up swap for lastings milledge
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um
Yes I did.
Milledge was the Mets’ #1 prospect and a top 10 overall prospect as little as three years ago, and he’s still only 24 years old — same as Wallace.
Hmmmmmmm, kinda says something about holding on to your “awesome kick ass future HOF” prospects too long doesn’t it? Sometimes they get exposed and lose value. Another college third baseman comes to mind in that vein, and he hit better in the minors than Wallace has so far.
The Braves gave up two prospects ranked in their pre-season top 10: Gorkys Hernandez, who was ranked in the top 50 prospects at BA, and Charlie Morton, who’s heads and shoulders better than Mortenson, and was pretty good for the Pirates this season.
If you don’t think the Milledge/Hernandez/Morton/Locke > Wallace/Mortenson/Petersen I don’t know how you value prospects, but it’s definitely wrong. Milledge and Morton alone are probably going to be worth twice what our package of players will be worth all together.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's your point with milledge?
that prospects can flame out? isn’t that line of reasoning kind of tired? i can also pound out a list of sure thing prospects who lived up to their potential, but i think we’re all intelligent enough that we don’t need to go through that drivel
gorkys hernandez is an of who hasn’t seen a single PA above AA and hasn’t had an ops at or above .800 since his 200 PAs in ’06 at the rookie level.
morton is a legit prospect, but i don’t see how he projects any higher than anyone in the cardinal system. not saying i’m hot on giving up garcia or lynn, but they aren’t near the caliber that wallace was
and i guess i’m just not that hot on milledge. i’d like to have him, but his ceiling is nowhere near that of wallace.
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude....you REALLY need to do some research before posting
Milledge (ML Career): .301/.379/.470
Wallace (ML Career): .305/.384/.475
You’re right, they have NOTHING in common, they only hit within 10 OPS points of each other in their minor league careers. Keep in mind that Milledge’s numbers were compiled at a much younger age than Wallace’s are, and that he has a lot more years at AAA than Wallace does. He was also viewed as a plus defender in the outfielder while Wallace is considered a less than average defender at 3B. Milledge was a 5 tool prospect and one of the top 5 prospects in all of baseball for 2 consecutive years — he was viewed much higher as a prospect than Wallace is right now.
I don’t think Milledge has flamed out — I still think he can be a productive major league player yet with his talent and skills. But his stock as a “top prospect” has dropped considerably, to the point where he was traded straight up for Nyger Morgan, another fairly unproductive major leaguer who found a home in Washington after the trade.
It’s not that prospects flame out, it’s that they lose their luster if they struggle at the big league level. It’s a confidence game when you’re trading prospects — you hope they flame out, while the opposition hopes that they don’t. You’re better off trading a guy when his stock is high and he’s still young, than holding on to him and hope that he doesn’t struggle, because then he’s worthless to you as a trade piece.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 21, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's your point?
so, milledge used to be an elite prospect? right. but, uh, he’s not now and wasn’t at the time of the nyjer morgan trade. that’s what we’re talking about. we’re not comparing milledge, the since-faded prospect to brett wallace of today. brett wallace is currently held in much higher regard now and at the time of the trade than milledge or morgan. see this makes since because, if you’ll recall, this originate as a discussion of better value trades than brett wallace for matt holliday and i cited morgan, then you were all "but lastings milledge used to be an elite prospect so the only way we could have gotten a franchise player like nyjer morgan
would be to give up brett wallace!
it’s just silly how badly you miss the point. or maybe you’re just trying to argue me into circles until i get confused and think you’re right. i dunno, but i don’t confuse easily
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 21, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as the other guys
Hernandez was a top prospect at the time of the trade and his stock has dropped considerably since then because of his lack of plate discipline. I was never a big fan of his for this reason, but he was one of the top 50 prospects in baseball last year, so some people must think highly of him…
Morton posted a league average FIP and tRA in 97 innings with Pittsburgh this year. He was a #4 starter and probably has #3 starter talent if he can get his K/9 back up to their minor league level. That’s a whole lot better than what Clay Mortenson has done.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 21, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hernandez was a top prospect
but he had faded by the time the mclouth trade came to fruition. besides i wouldn’t mind giving up prospects of hernandez and morton’s caliber to get mclouth and his contract. mclouth is a better prize than morgan. still neither of them at the time of the trade (you see, i italicized it to make sure you see it) were held in near the regard of wallace at the time of the trade
as for morton being better than mortenson…so? i’m not lamenting giving up mort. i think some people here were too high on him. what i said was morton doesn’t seem to be considerably better than anyone in the cards’ high minors. he projects about the same as garcia
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 21, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes more sense.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+10000000
The Walrus is gonna be the Egg Man and scramble a lot of major league pitching…
:=8/
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 20, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please Do Not Bring Up.....
…our dear, departed Walrus – still plenty sad over that…
:=8(
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 20, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be excited to watch that team as is.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know, Fritz
we really would
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's the Jose Reyes of roster matrix jumpoff points.
When the fall is all that's left, it matters a great deal.
by the red baron on Oct 20, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no wonder i can't sleep
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the record
I contend Smoltz is actually the highest upside pitcher among the supposed “bargains”. He posted a 2.83 FIP with us last year and in theory should have his shoulder stronger going into next year. He can obviously pitch through pain (was throwing 92.5 MPH in ‘08 when his shoulder was already shredded, still at 91.4 last year) so really I’d be less concerned about him blowing up than say Harden when Harden’s upside is 140 innings. Plus he brings all the intangibles you could possibly want.
Also what’s the guess on a Tim Hudson contract? Seems like his GBing tendencies would fit right into DuncTheory, especially if we go with a +defense 3B to field a dirty defensive infield.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Oct 20, 2009 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would guess
Hudson = something similar to what Derek Lowe got (4Y$50M-$60M)
Mainly because he, Lackey, and Bedard are the only pitchers on the market that potentially have #1 starter stuff, and Bedard won’t pitch until at least June of next year, imo.
Agree on Smoltz, although I think that a healthy Harden or Brett Myers would be interesting to kick the tires on.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think if we lose out on Holliday
I want the Cardinals to roll the dice on a high upside pitcher. Bedard is a player I am very interested in.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
I don’t think Bedard is that “high upside” because of cost.
I think Myers, Smoltz, and Garcia actually provide higher upside at a much lower cost.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is currently a Type B borderline Type A
If he rebounds he will net us 2 draft picks. That is real value worth probably around $6M if he rebounds. Plus, he is a lefty that is dominant when healthy.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how much value can he regain if he only pitches 2-3 months next year
i dont think he is due back til like august
by FunkeeC on Oct 20, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I think he is supposed to be back before August
But a player also doesn’t lose points on the Elias ranking by being on the DL
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
but if he’s borderline A/B and doesn’t pitch at all next season, or only pitches for two average months, that doesn’t help him get to type A.
Also, he doesn’t lose Elias points, but he may lose his ranking, because the rankings are based on the players in the current class. This year’s class of FA pitchers isn’t nearly as good as next year’s class, so he almost certainly be type B if he’s borderline now. Same thing happened to Glaus.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well if only pitches 2 months
I would not want him regardless
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what if it is two really good months
called September and October?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and a week in November...
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard June
but Glaus was supposed to be back in May and Sheets was supposed to pitch post all star break and neither of those happened.
I am really wary of pitchers with shoulder issues after having elbow issues. Seems like they never get fully healthy.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
it only works if it’s shoulder issues followed by elbow issues. (see Carpenter, Chris)
Mizzou 37 - Illinois 9
by STLRegalia on Oct 20, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Harden could work with Duncan
He is a FB/CH pitcher who is not a ground ball specialist or someone that pitches to contact. Basically everything that Duncan does not want in a pitcher.
by DriverZn on Oct 20, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my guess on hudson
is that he and the braves work out a deal: he agrees to next year’s option at 12 and the braves tack on a couple more years at lower scale, adding up to about 3/30 total.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 20, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wrote this in my fanpost but what about
Gabe Kapler for the 4th OFer. His career against LHP is .844 OPS with it being .931 OPS against LHP last year. Can play any of the three OF positions including CF with an average or plus glove. Would be cheap to sign at around only $1M.
I am also hoping the Cardinals make a bold move this year in backup C. Draft someone from the Rule V draft. Seems like an easy place to stash a player with some upside. Worst thing you drop him and bring up Pagz. I doubt it would be hard to find a backup C mid season.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 11:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
love the kaplar idea
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So do I
But I don’t see why you don’t just call up Anderson (other than TLR’s love of the last name Pagnozzi) for the second-string catcher.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like Anderson
But I am not sure the organization feels the same way
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think that is pretty clear by now
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
I’ve watched them both and I honestly do not believe that Pagnozzi is demonstrably better defensively than Anderson. I don’t understand how Pagnozzi made it to AAA, even with his last name.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's weird, right?
It’s as though the organization insists on having a backup C that can’t hit.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Oct 20, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
except for Snowcones.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want pagnozzi by any means
but Bryan Anderson is coming off a season-ender of an injury and is, somehow, younger than Charles Cutler. So I wouldn’t mind him getting some work in AAA.
by DanUpBaby on Oct 20, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you...
I think Pags can be fine as a backup catcher, as long as that means that Anderson is getting full time in AAA.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anderson being younger than Cutler really puts things in perspective..
I'm like a polygon, I'm edgy.
"OHHHHH!!!!!!! IT TASTES. SO. GOOD!!!!!!!!!!"
-BOOOOOOOOG
by slu on Oct 20, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only concern is that Pagnozzi will be 27 in a month.
And he has NEVER hit at any level.
His career averages are .210/.286/.292
His highest seasonal OBP is .302, and his highest SLG is .330.
He has never hit so high as .240, at any level, for any amount of time (not even small sample sizes can save him!).
He’s one of the few options at backup C that would save us ~$500K+ and might actually be so much less useful LaRue that it would not be worth it.
But I would like to see Bryan Anderson get the full time PA that he deserves.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Oct 20, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he never will hit at any level,
or field much above average.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I meant by pointing out his age.
He’s old for his level and he STILL stinks! There is nothing redeemable about him.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Oct 20, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Anderson doesn't play in the outfield?
I think Colby will hit better lefties better than last year. And we don’t know who our LFer is. But I would love to have a guy who can hit lefties and play all 4 outfield positions.(left field, right field, center field, and whatever position is on tony’s mind.)
by Evilfrog on Oct 20, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus he could draw more female fans to the park by walking around with his shirt off...
…or is he not the former professional body builder?
Mizzou 37 - Illinois 9
by STLRegalia on Oct 20, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
somewhere Skip has a sad
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are correct about the former body builder
just google his name
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Am I the only one
who when seeing the name Gabe Kapler thinks of this? : 
by nmstar on Oct 20, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damnit!
You beat me to a Welcome Back Kotter reference! You son of a bitch!
When the fall is all that's left, it matters a great deal.
by the red baron on Oct 20, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody has a "Potential Rule 5" list up yet that I've found
It would be interesting to see who’s on there. The Mariners and Rangers had 3 catchers in their top 10 prospects a year ago, but the M’s dealt one and will have one starting and the other isn’t Rule V eligible, while none of the Rangers catchers are eligible and we might not want them anyway.
I think there are better needs that could be filled out of the Rule 5, however. An middle infielder with some upside, RHRP, and LHRP are all areas that can sometimes be had for value in the R5 draft. We have Anderson and Stock (who’s still a catcher and just 20 years old) as high upside guys already in the farm system.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I doubt Anderson and Stock
WIll see the big leagues in 10. Maybe Anderson in Sept.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then I'm ok with bringing LaRue back for $950k
or going with Pags.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could live with LaRue
I think he will be back because he seems to have a good clubhouse presence. But I would rather roll the dice on a Rule V than Pagz.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
David Freese
will be third, and catch at the same time!
Stupid Sexy Flanders!!!
by timmycardinals on Oct 20, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Fuman Larue is worth 5 wins alone
Mizzou 37 - Illinois 9
by STLRegalia on Oct 20, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We Need Our Pornstache Back!!!
;=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 20, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carp may not like his BFF being taken away.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His own personal catcher.....
that doesn’t catch him.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan Fucking Ludwick
by RiverRat on Oct 20, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they did, the one time
there was an awkward BFF moment on the mound, if you recall.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thumbs up to Gabe Kapler
If he’s cheap enough. Hits lefties well, +D, and a workaholic. He’d be a good fit for the Cards’ as 4th OF/bench guy. Good call, flim.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 10:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
kapler sucks
yeah i said it, wanna fight about it?

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 5:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't really look like an "I want to fight pose."
It looks a little more like a “come give me a hug” from a creepy old friend of the parents.
by etp_stl on Oct 22, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's the Simpson's leprechaun
he says “wanna fight about it” to everyone
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 23, 2009 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
from Heyman: Rick Peterson hired as Brewers pitching coach
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/5020621989
why is this informative La Russa article in the SF Chronicle and not the P-D? Oh yeah.
meanwhile, this post has been linked to MLB trade rumors. mmm I love me some roster matrix.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Skip for 4th pitcher or closer?
He’s probably got the arm for it and Tony’s got to be getting bored of him at 2B.
by thepainguy on Oct 20, 2009 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ultimate versatility
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 20, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smoltz as closer?
Is Smoltz completely dead set against the idea of closing? If not, I say you sign him into that role, and start BOTH Garcia and Hawksworth.
McClellan wears down in a relievers role late in the year, I worry what would happen as a starter. And Smoltz clearly still has strike out stuff, but gives up enough big innings as a starter that you’re not necessarily going to get a lot out of him in that role.
Move Franklin to set up and McClellan to lower leveraged, middle relief situations.
by mwrg on Oct 20, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Is Smoltz completely dead set against the idea of closing? If not, I say you sign him into that role, and start BOTH Garcia and Hawksworth.
A thousand times yes.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait
Do you mean “yes” as in: Yes, Smoltz is dead set against closing? Or do you mean “yes” as in: Yes, I support the idea of making him closer (assuming Smoltz would be interested)?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my idea (at least the Smoltz to closer part)!
John Smoltz for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by jd is legend on Oct 20, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
roster matrix has me excited
- there’s lots of money to spend here in the offseason
- I hope they don’t decide to just give a bunch of it to Holliday, I’d rather sign Cameron or someone who will cost much less for a left fielder
- probably an unpopular opinion, but I’d just assume use some of that money to sign somone like Valverde to make the bullpen ridiculous (especially if Motte has a better season next year, with Frankie as set up and our LOOGYs that would be a great bullpen)
- sign someone like Sheets or Harden, etc to make our rotation devastating (if they can stay healthy, if not, it wouldn’t be the end of the world)
- I haven’t read the trade Albert Pujols thread yet, but is it starting rumors? right when I walked into work today a Cubs fan said that he heard the Cards are looking to trade Pujols. if we are signing Holliday for a ton of cash, it doesn’t make sense to me, why not just try and re-sign Albert instead (which won’t happen this year)
- and oh yeah, dfa McRae
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 20, 2009 1:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
trading albert
only makes sense if he has no intention to re-sign. which might be the case
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was their argument
that the cards are realizing they won’t be able to afford him and might trade him this year
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 20, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its probably all from that one stupid,
poorly researched unresearched article that was in the Trib a few days back. Really shoddy, baseless speculation that really didn’t support the conclusion it asserted. The guy basically pointed out the indications that Albert might be leaving/traded, which amounted to a few ambiguous and out of context quotes and the fact it’ll cost a lot (duh…thanks for that insight, by all means help yourself a pulitzer). Big deal. Further, he didn’t acknowledge a single legitimate reason why Albert might stay/why we have to re-sign (of which there are some). One-sided dreck and it doesn’t surprise me that the uninformed fans in Chicago is eating it up. Albert will probably be back imo—he’ll demand just enough money that it won’t break the bank for us, and the organization will be compelled enough by that to sign him because (1) he’ll probably be worth it and (2) so as not to completely alienate a huge portion of their fan base
by mattyp on Oct 20, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah
this is what I figured… trying to give fans hope that Pujols will not remain in-division
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 20, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardinal Beat
Post entitled “View from Chicago: Sky is Falling in St. Louis,” which summarizes the speculative column.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'd be all for valverde & SHEETS
but Val’s a Type A is he not?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 5:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing against the Roster Matrix
But it doesn’t show what we owe in 2011. We have the same core of guys but it costs about $15M more. Lots of pay increases across the board
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I saw some talk about Mozeliak above
what is your opinion on him? to me it seems like he’s doing a pretty good job, but now that you mention the situation in 2011, maybe not?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 20, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I think he has been doing poorly
Khalil Greene = Fail
DeRosa – Fail
Franklin Resigned for no point = Fail
Holliday = Fail in my eyes, But his best trade compared to the rest
Lohse = Fail
We would be in much better shape across the board if he didn’t make any of the moves.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think its fair
To call either K. Greene or DeRo a “fail.”
K. Greene was a low risk, high reward deal that didn’t work out due to factors I don’t think could have possibly been expected.
DeRo got hurt. Before the wrist injury, he was a great pick up.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
by IHeartBoog on Oct 20, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
$6.5MM
isn’t exactly low-risk
i do think it was a prudent move at the time considering what was known
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see what Gregerson did in SD? epic fail. I know it was considered a position of strength at the time, but it just didn’t work out. I don’t think its low risk when you give up 2 good relief prospects, its low risk if you give up nothing.
I agree on DeRo.
by redbirds34 on Oct 20, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe it's just me
but I had no indication that Gregerson would perform like that. OTOH, there were indications that K. Greene would provide power hitting and good defense.
Maybe “low-risk” isn’t the right choice of words. I just don’t think it was a fail for Mo.
"I knew they were up to shenanigans." --TLR
by IHeartBoog on Oct 20, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gregerson
someone posted his ERA splits on here. At Petco he was below 1, i believe, and on the road was above 8. Don’t know what any of that translates to at Busch, but the splits themselves must be some kind of record. (I did not see him pitch this year.)
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 20, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
much better shape?
I have to say that us going .500 this year, which was completely possible pre-trades, was not nearly as good as this.
by stlfan on Oct 20, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's all about how your perception of how to run a baseball club...
I get the feeling that some of us here would always like to build for the future and win later with our own players……only they can’t ever figure out which year in the future is the year that we should win with all those players.
Others of us, myself included, feel like building for the future is fine, but it shouldn’t always get in the way of trying to win right now. You had the best pitching staff in the big leagues this season residing in St. Louis, so upgrading the offense through trade was the right thing to do if you believe in winning championships.
You can’t always build for the future — prospects get old or flame out, your current stud players won’t be studs forever. With a payroll around $100M you have to tie up the best assets you can get for less than market value, then try and pick your spot to strike when the iron is hot. Very few teams have sustained success over a long period of time, I’d say that Cardinals under LaRussa have been second in that regard to only one team over the last 14 seasons, and they spend about twice as much on their team as we do.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
If you think Mo’s job is to put the best product on the field to try and win, without sacrificing long term goals, then you’re happy right now.
If you think Mo’s job is to build the best farm system alive and build a monster team with a few free agents and a bunch of Cardinals prospects, then you think he’s doing a shitty job.
I just don’t think that the latter view is a feasible one given the constraints with the draft, farm system, and so on.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it seems like he is doing a good job juggling the two to me
the Lohse signing is sort of bad, but it didn’t drive me nuts. it seemed like a pretty conventional move at the time, since it seemed that he would be a durable #3 or a really good #4. still, it was a a lot of money to give him, so it was still a bad idea.
Derosa trade woulda been a success if he didn’t get hurt… and if Perez didn’t find his control
Holliday trade was what it was, a move to try and get into the postseason and it worked. the only way that it would make sense to keep Wallace is if they were planning on not trading Albert.
Khalil Greene didn’t work out, but it didn’t really hurt us that much.
Duncan for Lugo was an amazing trade.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 20, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoops
*not signing Albert
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 20, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we may have been bitten by bad luck
because the economic downturn happened right after the deal of Lohse went down. and who was going to predict a year of Bubble Boy, anyway.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huge Win
Best move he has done. Smoltz also was a win.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also,
Isn’t Mo the one who locked up Wainwright?
by Evilfrog on Oct 20, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
and Molina.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has shown he likes to resign players before the market starts
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this shows confidence in the ability to value players effectively
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injury - Lohse
I think we would have overpaid either way. But Lohse’s horrible 09 was more a result of Injury than it was plain suckitude.
You also have to factor in letting Looper, Miles go. (was Mo in charged when Suppan walked? I forget.)
by Evilfrog on Oct 20, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's unfair
Had he known the stock market was going to lose 40% of it’s value between the end of the season in 2008 and the beginning of the 2009 season, I’m sure he wouldn’t have made that contract.
At rates prior to 2008, that Lohse contract really doesn’t look all that bad in context. I would fault him if he thought that Lohse was going to be a 4 WAR pitcher going forward like he was in 2008.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
but he gambled on Waino and Molina before their big breakout seasons and he won on both of those counts.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they were still under control of the team
Lohse was a Free Agent
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much do you think Wainwright would make on the open market now?
Probably around CC money? What does he get paid now?
Lohse was a situation where the FO saw that Wainwright was the only constant. Carpenter was constantly injured, Pineiro was a Pinata, and we had Looper leaving.
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
by Taskmaster on Oct 20, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
waino
will need to repeat ’09 a couple times before he gets cc money
though, i could see him going for close to $15MM/yr
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
he’s going to have to repeat it at least 4 more times, because he won’t be a free agent until after the 2013 season. Damn that’s a great contract…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The extension negotiations will be brutal,
especially if we sign FA Holliday and extend Pujols.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he sharted?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I hate and have always hated the Lohse contract,
regardless of the economic climate. And I was really disappointed not to be proven wrong by Lohse this year. Prove me wrong, Kyle! Prove me wrong! Just like Jo-El did this year. I don’t care if you have to raise the spirit of some other long-dead(ball) HOFer…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mo report card
Initially, I hated the guy. Seemed like a pencil-pushing “yes” man. Grading this far:
Khalil Greene: F – no idea what he wasthinking with that signing. Red flags everywhere.
Trever Miller: A – crafty vet lefty that solidified our pen. Where would we have been without him?
DeRosa: B – Traded depth for a versatile vet with good, proven talent. It’s a shame the wrist injury happened. DeRo is much better than what Cards fans saw. No reason not to re-sign him.
Lugo: B – can’t see him having any future impact, but he performed well enough for us down the stretch, and little Dunc finally went to the AL, where he should have been three years ago.
Holliday: A – even if he doesn’t re-sign, he re-energized fans and restored some faith in the front office. Brett Wallace belongs at 1B/DH. He would’ve never excelled to his full potential here, so he ended up in the AL where he belongs.
Lohse contract: D – he’s peaked. I don’t see him matching or surpassing his ‘08 numbers again. I’d rather invest in youthful SP than average middle-agers.
Overall: B – for now. Mainly because I think his best moves (aside from Miller) were driven by fan/TLR restlessness/frustration.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 11:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Lugo is A+
the rest are open to debate.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 21, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Yankee's don't resign him
What about Johnny Damon?
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not that I’ve been thinking about this, but players who can get on the field every day and score 100 runs, how many guys do that? Johnny just plays, and he’s got the body type that allows him to do that. If stem-cell research were around, you’d want to tap into that gene pool. He’s (35), but has a 30-year-old’s body. He plays much younger
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that a Boras quote or something?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha, yeah
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/10/boras-discusses-johnny-damon.html
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i score 100 runs every year too
if i hit at the top of the Sox or Yankees lineups
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
too much nudity
would disrupt the man stew
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Oct 20, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yankees man stew

for 12
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DO NOT WANT
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Oct 20, 2009 3:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't be so bad, depending on what he's asking for.
Sure could use the OBP, I’ll tell you that.
His defense went from pretty darn good to terrible in LF last year though.
And for a lefty, he’s done OK against lefties (though notably not as well as he has against righties). And really, Corky and Skip (New cop show, maybe) are the only lefties still around with Dunkiel gone.
Offseason Rumors : Me :: Unicorn Blood : Voldemort
by Cardinals645 on Oct 20, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love seeing Damon in the 2 hole every night...
Even if Ryan has to run out to LF to be his surrogate arm.
"I learned a long time ago if you keep checking your stats all year, you're going to end up in the toilet." - Chris Carpenter, 2009.
by indakind on Oct 20, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This reminds me of a shirt I saw in Boston.
Johnny Damon
Looks Like Jesus
Acts Like Judas
Throws Like Mary
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boog's range back there is limited
because he often has to be the cut-off man (and he’s often not that great of a cut-off man). It’s the 3B who’s backing LF, and well…..
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Subject line
TWSS
"Baseball is like Church, many attend, few understand" - Wes Westrum
by scoot on Oct 20, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh thats nasty

Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me, too...
…as long as he’s not wearing a Cardinals uniform.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 11:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Damon?
Really? No thanks. Big name = too pricey. He’s also kind of scary in leftfield. Yeah he can still get on base and stir things up, but price + iffy D + age factor (wouldn’t hold up all year as NL starter) = pass. Oh yeah, and he bats left. As if we’re not already vulnerable enough to southpaws.
I like the aforementioned Gabe Kapler idea much better.
by Matt Bug on Oct 20, 2009 11:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Do we need a line for LaRussa on the chart?
Or whoever our manager is next year…
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Oct 20, 2009 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OT: HELP BOOG! HELP BOOG!
He’s currently #3 in the Mustachio’d Man voting…
Cen we really let Clay Zavada beat him?!
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Oct 20, 2009 2:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Clay does (did?) have an awesome stache.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan Fucking Ludwick
by RiverRat on Oct 20, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...but....but it's Boog.
[lonely tear]
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Oct 20, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's who I would vote for if Boog wasn't an option...
and for some reason I stumbled across that. I cannot think of any reason why I would care about voting in a mustache contest other than Brendan Ryan being included.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Oct 20, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sportsnation's twitter posted it again today
…gave no love to Boog.
…bastards.
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Oct 20, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's just wrong.
We should vote for him to spite them.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Oct 20, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zavada's stache comes packaged with that comeback story
and Boog didn’t really develop his until the DS.
That said, I voted for Boog.
Avenge him, damn it.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh...I definately voted for BOOG
I was just stating that Zavada has a great stache….IIRC I stumped for signing Zavada on pure stache points earlier in the season.
"Everyone in here comes to the yard ready to play every day. I’ll take this group, any day until the day I die."
"This whole Cardinals thing.....I don’t know if you guys are a believer, but I’m a believer."
~ Ryan Fucking Ludwick
by RiverRat on Oct 20, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was heartened by Boog's upturn in stacheness
came way too late (probably just needed a few hundred relatives to chime in), but it was impressive and bodes well for spring training
story of the season, I guess.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need to figure out who can afford and wants Holliday
Yankees – Already have tons of money tied up. I bet they resign Damon
Red Sox – Is the biggest obstruction I think if they don’t resign Bay. But I think they will resign Bay
Mets – They have much bigger problems than LF. They need to starting pitchers. Plus, the owner lost large amount of money to Bernie Madoff.
I think Holliday will get a 5 year/$17M contract. Who can afford it and really needs a LF?
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This was one reason
why I thought the Dodgers were stupid for signing Manny to a two year deal. They could easily afford Holliday and he would fit perfectly into their lineup for the next 6-7 years.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Either that or suffer the backlash from the fans. He was the second coming of Jesus to them, especially with the post season play.
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
by Taskmaster on Oct 20, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can afford it and need a LF:
Yankees (Damon departs, or not)
Mets
Red Sox (Bay departs)
Angels (Abreu departs)
Braves
Giants
Tigers
The only way he comes back is if he really loves STL. We’re not winning a bidding war.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Oct 20, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the Mets or Tigers can
and not sure the Braves or Giants would spend that much either, though I could see the Giants giving him 19 yrs, 750M.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants, after Zito?
Are you sure? Or are you just joking?
born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red
by totalloser on Oct 20, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im sure he is serious about the $39.5M/yr contract...
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
through age 48 nonetheless
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 20, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
play to win, gents.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you play to win the games!

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 5:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants need him the most
It would make sense going to Giants. Lincecium though goes to Arbitration for the first time this year.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see the Braves as an interested party
I think they’re one Chipper Jones retirement from rebuilding mode if they aren’t already there, and he’s not getting any younger, so a 6 year deal for Holliday doesn’t make much sense. Especially considering all the young OF they have in their minor league system.
I don’t think he wants to play in the AL, although he might make an exception for the Angels.
The Giants would be a team I’d really worry about. He would really help their lineup, and they’re not paying anyone very big $$$ right now.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey!

What about me?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant on the offensive side of the equation
Although that contract could be considered offensive in it’s own right.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he looks like my cousin Brian
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 20, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair,
he looks like everyone’s cousin Brian.
When the fall is all that's left, it matters a great deal.
by the red baron on Oct 20, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't have a cousin named brian
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 5:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are the cousin named brian
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 22, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my names not brian
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 23, 2009 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Number of people in the world who like contract?
That’s what the Hi-10 means, right?
VivaElBirdos: Celebrating glorious mustaches since 2009
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 20, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except their ridiculously overpaid CFer.
And, of course, Zito.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not overpaid....YET
He probably will be next year. He’s been worth a little more than what they’ve paid him in the first two years of that contract.
And I’m assuming you’re talking about Rowand…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be all over Holliday...
if I were the Braves. They’re a 91 win team (pythag). They have a ton of pitching, a couple decent hitters in the lineup, and an atrocious Garrett Anderson in left.
Swapping out Anderson for Holliday puts them at 96 wins, an entire season without Francouer gets them to 98, an entire season with McClouth and Hanson moves them to 100… Even with slippage, they’re the favorites in 2010 with Holliday.
Also, Zito + Rowand = GDP of the Maldives
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Oct 20, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lowe
I read that they were looking to get rid of Lowe. Would this be to make room for Holliday’s salary?
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much money do they have to spend, though?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quick Look
Looks like they have $25 to $30M to spend but have a lot of holes also.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hows about El Gigantes?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that makes me think of this guy

Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What was that guy's name again?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
El Gigante or Giant Gonzalez
WCW or WWF/E, respectivley
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or Jorge González
if you arent talking kayfabe
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always wondered whose idea it was to put him in that ridiculous fake muscle suit
I would have been kind of insulted to be asked to wear that.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
looks like he's got a kickin bod to me

by brackenthebox on Oct 20, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where's the codpiece?!
BOYCOTT HASS AVOCADOS
by vexedtechie on Oct 20, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just thank goodness
for the furry loin cloth…or is that a loincloth? oh the horror…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except
in WCW he didn’t wear the muscle outfit
by saladdays on Oct 20, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was unaware of that
I was pretty loyal to WWF so I probably just didn’t watch WCW at that point in time.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NWA?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that was before my time?
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was essentially the WCW until ~1990.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was not aware of that
I didn’t really know the WCW existed quite yet. I was 6 in 1990 but had been into WWF for a year or two (probably? I still vividly remember Sean Michaels’ brutal betrayal of Marty Jannetty).
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Brutus the Barber Beefcake.
How are all kids who grew up on professional wrestling in the mid to late 80’s-early 90’s not gay? Lex Luger? Beefcake? Rick Rude? That shit was the gayest shit ever.
/not that there’s anything wrong with that
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
give me the Four Horsemen anyday
and the Von Erichs too
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 20, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
vintage Steamboat
i could watch that man wrestle all day…that doesnt sound weird does it?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
youre right….you shook my whole world, i need a moment to find myself…AAAAH! The Macho Man!!!
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Snap into a Slim Jim
John Smoltz for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by jd is legend on Oct 20, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm a year younger than you
and i remember nwa
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man
You must have started earlier than me. Or maybe you just paid more attention? I didn’t have cable or anything so I mostly relied on watching at a friend’s house, and he was strictly WWF.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the NWA had a regular thingy in St. Louis
the Checkerdome, IIRC
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 20, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The things you learn at VEB
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't watch too much NWA
when it was in it’s hey day (as I was like seven), but used to rent old VHS tapes of it when I was like 12. 1992 Ruled!
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when I was a wee lass
err…lad, we we basically babysat by the NWA on friday or saturday nights
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 20, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i still have the 1988 Royal Rumble!!!
the epic where Hogan and Andre had their contract signing for WMIII…what a main event, a contract signing…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I busted out earlier
WCW vs NWO: World Tour on the N64.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those were some great games
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 21, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
waaaaaayyyy later
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NWA means some Ice Cube and Mac 10
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 20, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 20, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
kids these days Fritz!
what are we gonna do with em?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 20, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mix em and cook em in a pot like gumbo

pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh okay
that’s what i was remembering
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ohhhhh
Yeah, I totally remember NWO. I kinda got into NWO but I resisted for a while. Evil Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage? Say it ain’t so!
I like that Razor Ramon lived on as Scott Hall, but it just wasn’t the same without the accent and toothpick.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 20, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like they're around...
$70 million with no Hudson, no Gonzalez/Soriano in the pen, and Kotchman at first. Figure $15 million to bring back Hudson and one reliever, then trade Kawakami or Lowe and non-tender Kelly Johnson to get it to $80-$82 million… They easily have enough space. Plus they have big money coming off the books after 2010 when Vasquez leaves and again when Chipper departs.
An outfield of Heyward/McClouth/Holliday, plus McCann, Chipper, and Escobar in the middle of the lineup, and with all that pitching??? Possible 105 win team.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Oct 20, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They probably have to resign Adam Laroche as well.
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
by Taskmaster on Oct 20, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
I think McClouth is going to have to move to a corner spot pretty soon, and I think Jordan Schafer will be playing CF for them before long. Heyward would then fill the other corner outfield spot for them, probably RF.
Then they still have money to throw at a 3B in a couple of years since they don’t currently have one in their organization.
Matt Diaz was also quietly pretty good for them last year, so I don’t think you’re wins calculation is exact either. Diaz/Anderson/Church was worth about 3 WAR last year.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's more money than you'd think
In entertaining scuba-diving norwegians.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Oct 20, 2009 3:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
is there ever!
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
detroit can't afford him
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah you're right...
They’re paying Nate Robertson $10 million next year?!? I almost think that’s a typo.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Oct 20, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday competition
The AL was not kind to Holliday. I doubt he’ll wanna go there, unless the Yanks pay him a fortune.
I see NYM and ATL – in that order – as the prime competition, if (big “if”) they wanna jump in the ring.
Worth mentioning again – I think he’d go back to COL for a discount, but I don’t think they’ll want him. They have too much young OF talent on the rise.
by Matt Bug on Oct 21, 2009 12:25 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Holliday played in the AL for all of three months
he is a hitter, he can hit anywhere. Ugh.
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 21, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There could be some...
non-tenders bouncing around. We’ve had some success trolling those waters… Ideally we could get a guy who could take a walk in front of Pujols. Possibilities in order of preference:
Conor Jackson (currently laid out with valley fever)
Jack Cust (likely brutal in the field)
Jeremy Hermida
Mark Teahen
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Oct 20, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Teahen is the only guy I really like on that list
but he’s a brutal third baseman, and I don’t think he’d be better than Craig if he played in the OF.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hermida
is interesting but is a terrible outfielder…i like that he can take a walk though. it would be nice to have him 2 hole and Colby 5 or 6 so he could run a little.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Allen Craig could
produce Jeremy Hermida’s numbers as well as playing better defense.
Hermida was being platooned in the OF last season — we’d be better off getting a 2B and moving Skip back to LF.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley...
is preferable to all these players.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Oct 20, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your avatar reveals your leanings in this debate...
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
subtle isn't it?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 22, 2009 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why
Hermida was being platooned in the OF last season — we’d be better off getting a 2B and moving Skip back to LF.
Why exactly? Skip is a terrible outfielder that needs a platoon as well and would only produce as much Hermida at best. but then we would not find a 2B that would out perform either of them so what would be the point of looking for one? in other words:
Hermida LF & Skip 2B > Skip LF & FA 2B
I see your point on Craig although he should be at 3B but we know that wont happen.
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terrible outfielder?
He’s actually pretty good, as long as you leave him in LF. Better than Hermida, that’s for sure.
Skip in LF and Lugo at 2B > Skip 2B & Hermida LF
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree
the offense is about the same maybe a little better your way but the defense is terrible especially when you have a ground ball throwing staff…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lugo
is a similar defender at 2B to Skip, at least range wise — unless you think Skip is a +5 at 2B, and I’m not ready to make that leap yet.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but lugo
has the arm of a drunk 15 year old girl
i’ll take skip at 2b
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Based on experience
Drunk teenage girls can wing full beer cans with the best of them, they just aren’t sure where it’s going….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lugo was a -14.7 UZR/150 in 2009
and -11.5 for his career
Skip was -5.7 and i like to think he is improving since he is still learning might be wishful thinking though…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm very intrigued to follow
Skippy’s 2010 UZR and put way too much stock in the small sampling…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lugo's sample at 2B
is actually smaller than Skips for UZR, so you could say that they’re both improving at the position the longer they play there.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are right there
i thought he played more 2B especially with the Dodgers…im not sure why i thought that..
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Long story, well, longer...
I don’t think Hermida has a ton of value as a LF, and I think we can do better in our own organization at a cheaper cost.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my opinion on Lugo hinges on exactly one thing
can he get rid of the ball out of his glove.
if he can learn to do this, then I’d consider him in the same sentence as Skip. Lugo:getting rid of the rock::Thurston:baserunning. It was like, when will you learn this, dude.
Fortunately Lugo’s final(?) throw of 09 was a spectacular example of getting rid of it quickly. But obv. SSS.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Teahen might really excel on a winning team
Or he could end up being slightly worse Skip v. 0.2
by stlfan on Oct 20, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THe 5th starter debate wouldn't even exist
if Duncan would just let Anthony Reyes pitch the way he wants! The kid is clearly a Cy Young winner in the making! Can’t you all see that!
defy, cards, defy. hey logic --- you suck.
by effin fisk on Oct 20, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
lol
John Smoltz for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
by jd is legend on Oct 20, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to wait until later tonight,
but I wrote a Fanpost, “”http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2009/10/20/1091753/october-21st-anthony-reyes-day" >October 21st: Anthony Reyes Day," which I will link to and shamelessly promote. Ahhhh, the good ole days of yore when we would argue in circles about young Reyes…But this Fanpost isn’t about that, per se. It is about his Game 1 start in the ’06 World Series…
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Link fail:
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2009/10/20/1091753/october-21st-anthony-reyes-day
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 20, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you guys know he's going to sign with the cubs, right?
as I’ve been steadily reporting for days?
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i just refuse to believe it
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 20, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
have a drink
he’s probably going to drive up the price for Duncan, too.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how much does duncan make?
i’d think he’s the highest paid pitching coach and rudy to be same such for hitting, and that their pay was pretty comparable.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 20, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
750K
they’re talking 800K per year for Jaramillo
(whose name I can just barely spell right the first time…. )
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 20, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as he brings roids with him, and he can relocate the ballpark too.
During his tenure, Jaramillo has produced four MVPs (Juan Gonzalez twice, Ivan Rodriguezand Alex Rodriguez), a batting champ (Michael Young) and three home run champions (Alex Rodriguez 2001-03).
by ICbirdfan on Oct 20, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
and none of those players were worth a shit after leaving Texas either. :-)
Sometimes I think hitting coaches get too much credit.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Oct 20, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
330 posts
I will scroll back through them later but….
MLE: .278/.319/.440
REAL: .270/.342/.457
The Cardinals traded Jess Todd and Chris Perez for the real at 3B last year, who was equally suspect defensively.
If they were ok with Mark DeRosa’s offensive production, I think they can live with Allen Craig.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 20, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just don't think that
Offense is the org’s problem with Craig, I think it’s the defensive end of things that concerns them. Perhaps they are really shitty at grading out 3B defensively in this organization — which could be true, since I think Terry Pendleton was the last one that graduated the minors at 3B and played in the major

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