Trading Albert Pujols
by prophetjohn on Oct 15, 2009 5:54 PM EDT
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PrintHold your horses for a second there, Johnny! Open the garage door, turn off your engine and spit out those sleeping pills, darn it. This is merely in reference to Goold's piece on the matter. It's one of those unthinkable things in Cardinal Nation, but if it genuinely makes you a better team (and with the haul the best player in the game is likely to bring in, it undoubtedly would), would you do it? For all we know, we have no chance of extending his contract if he doesn't see St. Louis as a team that can compete long-term. Great management and great scouting are fine, but $150-200MM is always going to be an advantage over the $100MM maximum the Cardinals' front office will be forced to work with in the foreseeable future.
So! For a little hypothetical fun (or maybe it's more akin to waterboarding), let's think about what El Hombre could return to the Cardinals. I will also be operating under the assumption that Brett Wal -- err, um, Allen Craig will be ready to step into the 1B job on day one of 2010, so getting a replacement in return is not of the utmost importance.
Let's face it, we're talking about Albert F. Pujols, here. So pardon me if I'm being a little overzealous with what I expect in return. Consider me an even more out of touch Ricciardi.
Giants - Lincecum, Sandoval/Bumgarner, PTBNL (b prospect)
Marlins - Ramirez, Johnson, Uggla (we can also toss them Boog, since he will be unnecessary with the acquisition of the second best player in the game [even if he doesn't have that fire to play])
Dodgers - Kershaw, Kemp, PTBNL (b prospect)
Rays - Longoria, Crawford, PTBNL (b prospect)
Can't really think of any other teams that have enough to return to the Cards, contracts considered, and are in need of a 1B. And out of this group, only the Dodgers fit the mold for being able to afford him and having a competetive team (Albert would also looove to play with his bff Manny).
Dig, if you will, the picture of Carp, Waino and Kershaw engaged in a Cy Young chase. Touch, if you will, my stomach. Feel how it trembles inside? That's because I'm hungry. Now make me a damn sandwich while i ponder Matt Kemp hitting third and Matt Holliday cleaning up for him. That's some serious Matt-age there. Almost ridiculous I might add.
What other packages are out there? Is anything worth ~Albert Pujols~?
And is it really only October 15th? Really? The 15th? Wow.
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better be more than longoria and crawford
better throw in shields/david price and…oh what am i doing, this is ridiculous
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
longoria and crawford
are a pretty damn good haul. especially with longoria’s contract. ‘course with crawford’s contract being up soon, price would be a nice throw-in
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Longoria is worth way more than Pujols
He is under team control for the next seven years for <$50 m total. Insanely team friendly deal. No shot the Rays would trade him for Pujols straight up.
Free Milton
This.
Most teams literally do not have enough valuable players to equal the value of Longoria’s contract, because it extends team control two years beyond the normal end of arbitration. Albert’s two remaining years pay him more than the seven years of Longoria’s contract combined. Pujols for Longoria straight up would be an excellent deal for us. Pujols plus Ludwick would be a good deal for us.
Hell, Longoria’s contract is so damn good, we could trade Pujols, and then resign him in 2012 with all of the money we’d saved.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Mathematics fail-
Pujols contract pays more than Longo’s minus the option years. Longo’s pays more for all seven combined.
But not by much!
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
Hell, Longoria’s contract is so damn good, we could trade Pujols, and then resign him in 2012 with all of the money we’d saved.
brilliant!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
would albert work with us
on this scheme?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
if word got out on something like that
it would be a huge scandal…
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
happens in the nba all the time
but let’s keep it quiet
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
But in the NBA
the contract are always worth more than the actual players.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Pretty much
Expiring Contracts for the 2010 offseason especially are amazingly valuable, ask the Knicks :)
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
I will not be speculating on this.
It’s just not very fun.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
it's bullshit, that's what it is
I swear to GOB if Albert gets traded for any of these packages I will hunt you people down and make you regret you were ever Cardinal fans. When will you people learn? JEBUS!
/walks out of thread disgusted
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 15, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
and what's sad is
i can’t believe any of the teams on the receiving end would accept those trades, either.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Yeah, there is some serious overstatement of Albert's value
and/or serious understatement of cheap young talent
Free Milton
i said
i was an even more out of touch ricciardi
you don’t just trade albert pujols for chicken scraps
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 15, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
note that ricciardi was an actual GM in the MLB
and was out of touch
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 15, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
surely most people know who he is
after all the halladay hubaloo this season
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
was he fired already?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
yeah
they replaced him with some guy named snuffaluffagus
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
ah, Aloysius
he may be furry and have no ears but he is still probably better that JP…
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
only if you can bring players back from the dead.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
I don't see any way Pujols gets traded
because we’d never get anywhere near fair value.
But I do think there’s some teams that you missed here:
Boston: Lester, Buchholz, Lars Anderson
Texas: Feliz, Andrus, Smoak (the might be crazy enough to do this too…)
I can’t really think of any more teams that I’d like to completely rape and pillage of young players.
I will say that the Texas deal and the Rays deal (assuming Crawford agrees to a contract extension) really intrigue me. If you could get those players from the Rays, You’d have more than enough money, with the pittance that is Longoria’s contract, to go out and get a power hitting 1B to replace Pujols. That, and we’d have the best outfield in baseball, bar none.
With the Texas deal, you get their three top prospects, you re-sign Holliday to a 6Y$100M contract and you build around Holliday, Smoak, Andrus, Feliz, and Wainwright, while going out and getting someone like Russell Branyan to play 1B.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
i don't know much about texas' farm system
but i know feliz is p much the top prospect in baseball.
obviously, pujols will never be traded. the FO will sit on their hands trying to extend him, it won’t happen and then he’ll be gone after 2011 and we’ll have nothing to show for it except the mets’ first round pick
some of these trades would not only make us an instant juggernaut, but free up a bunch of cash to make us even better.
maybe i’m just preparing myself for the inevitable. i’d hate to see the guy walk after 2011 and all we get is a draft pick when we could have longoria and crawford or kemp and kershaw on the cheap
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
That's what I love about the Texas deal
Smoak is probably still a year away, but we’d be set for the next 6 years or so with Holliday, Rasmus, Smoak, Andrus, Feliz, and Wainwright. Plus, four of those guys are cost controlled and will be cheap through at least 2013, allowing the team to go out and spend some money on a 3B as well.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I don't want to be the bad guy...
who tells you not to bother creaming your shorts over this, but nobody’s giving up anything like that for a year of Pujols.
MB for LF in 2010!
he has a club option for 2011
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Wrong
The Braves gave up that for half a season of Mark Teixera (literally, Andrus and Feliz were part of the deal). You don’t think a team would give up that for a year of Albert Pujols?
Unfair comparison.
Andrus and Feliz were #65 and #90 in Baseball America’s top 100 at the time of the deal. Sure, they are the same players, but at the time they were not the budding superstars they are today.
Free Milton
actually, they WERE budding superstars
BA was just worse at evaluating them than the rangers FO was. And that was for a year and a half ot tex, not half a year, which would be the same as us trading pujols this next July.
Look at what the Braves got for him the second time around.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
They were still both years from being MLB ready
This deal happened at the deadline in 2007. Andrus played all year this year and Feliz about half. They are both incredibly more valuable now than they were a year and a half ago.
Free Milton
You're kidding right?
June 27th, 2002 — The Expos traded Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, and Lee Stevens for Bartolo Colon and Time Drew. That’s three of the top four prospects in their organization for one fat pitcher.
November 14th, 2003 — The Giants trade Boof Bonser, Joe Nathan, and Francisco Lirano for A.J. Pierzynski. Bonser and Liriano were two of the best pitchers in the Giants organization, and Nathan was coming off of a pretty good bullpen year but hadn’t yet become a closer.
You can say that trades like this don’t happen, but they DO happen, and have happened for years for one reason or another. Look at all the fucking WAR the Indians got for one fat Colon (pun intended), that’s way, WAY worse than what the Rangers would be getting in the Pujols deal.
If you’re the Rangers, this might not be a bad deal for you right now, and here’s why:
If you can pry Lackey away from the Angels during the offseason and deal for Pujols, you’re the favorite in the NL West next year, and you have a chance to have a stranglehold on that division for the next 2 – 3 years while Oakland is getting it’s kids experience, the Mariners are blowing things up, and the Angels are getting old and being on the verge of having to blow things up. Look at it — you have three good hitters already that are due for a rebound next year (Kinsler, Young, and Hamilton) and budding stud LF (Cruz), at least one catcher due for a breakout season (Saltalamacchia or Teagarden), a pretty damn good bullpen, and with Lackey and Pujols you add a solid #2 starter to your rotation to go with Millwood and Feldmen, with two other good young pitchers on the rise in the 4 and 5 starters (Holland and Hunter), and you add the best hitter in the universe to the middle of your order and Chris Davis moves to DH. You sign Jack Wilson to replace Andrus at SS, and you have a contending club that can really do some damage.
Lineup:
Borbon, CF
Kinsler 2B
Pujols 1B
Hamilton LF
Cruz RF
Young 3B
Davis DH
Teagarden/Salty C
Wilson SS
You could also bench Borbon if he doesn’t work out, move Hamilton to CF, play Murphy in LF, move Kinsler to leadoff and Murphy to the second spot in the lineup.
Rotation:
Millwood
Lackey
Feldman
Hunter
Holland
That’s team that can win 90-95 games and be a monster for the next couple of seasons.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
money
since MLB is paying the bills, would they be able to do that? pujols+lackey=some serious added payroll.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
I'm not saying it's going to happen
I’m simply saying that it could be a very good move for them for a two year period if they want to make a run at things.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
They'd probably just resign Vizquel
but that’s not important.
I guess there’s a reason that team had the best farm system in the MLB last year :)
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
This isn't fair either
When the Expos traded these guys, they weren’t sure fire stars ready to contribute at the major league level. Sizemore was 19. Phillips was the centerpiece of the deal, but he didn’t even have a place in the organization – Omar Vizquel and Ricky Gutierrez were ahead of him. And Cliff Lee’s upside was a #3 starter. BP’s recap of the trade:
Lee figures to be ready for the majors at the end of the 2003 season. His upside is that of a #3 starter.
[Sizemore] shows outstanding range in center field and an average throwing arm, but his throwing mechanics are being addressed, possibly allowing him to get better carry. He makes a lateral move to high-A Kinston, and is a good three years from the majors.
As for the Giants deal, there is only one Brian Sabean. Still, here are the rankings of the prospects they sent for A.J. according to Baseball America at that time:
Bonser: #29
Liriano: #83 (4 guys ahead of him on his own team)
Nathan: Never ranked
Now, as it turns out these guys morphed into stars. But they weren’t top sure fire studs at the time like Smoak, Andrus, and Feliz are now.
Free Milton
by all4tookie on Oct 16, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention that the Expos were playing to not be contracted
They had no concern for player development in that environment. They were ‘title or bust’ more than perhaps any team has ever been, before or since.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
just had another thought
the year is 2011
wainwright
carpenter
kershaw
miller
lohse
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
who doesn't fit in there?
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Oct 15, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
miller?
he hasn’t throw a big league pitch yet
oh, kershaw! he’s a lefty
oh, oh wait, oh +=(
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
more realistic haul
is on the order of peavy, beckham, quentin. no thanks, and i hope apu never gets wind of this because he knows a guy…
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
nah, fuck peavy's contract
i want to be blown away
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
OK
zimmerman, strasbourg, +add a couple names
or, baltimore has some guys you could pick and choose from.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
that occured to me
no way they’re parting with strasburg, though. albert doesn’t make much sense for them anyway
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
we've played this game before
no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 15, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions
Whoever suggested the trade to Goold
is an idiot. Why the Cards would trade not only the best player on the team, but also the face of the franchise and one of the best players in the MLB is beyond me. It makes little to no sense for the team to trade him, especially since he wants to be a Cardinal until he retires. If the club were to even think about pulling it off, I would be angry. Hell, I’m angry at whoever first suggested it to Goold. It’s one of those things that you just can’t say.
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Cards must-signs: Holliday, DeRo
Cards should let these guys walk: Ankiel, Pineiro, Glaus, Thurston, Wellemeyer, K. Greene
orly?
he wants to be a Cardinal until he retires.
link?
i think he wants to be on a team that he views as a perennial contender. you’re so sure he thinks the cards are that team? i think you’re setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
he's always liked st louis
and I don’t see him wanting to leave.
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Cards must-signs: Holliday, DeRo
Cards should let these guys walk: Ankiel, Pineiro, Glaus, Thurston, Wellemeyer, K. Greene
I don't think this is a good read of Pujols.
Albert has matured a great deal since signing his previous contract, and it’s clear that he is becoming comfortable with the amount of power he can wield over an organization. He is also becoming more comfortable with the idea that baseball is a business, and he is using his power to negotiate what he wants.
I think his demands will more or less be met, but if the organization deems them too high he will go somewhere else to get it. I think the PR problems that losing him would cause for the organization are more costly than the payroll size that Pujols is requesting.
Romanticizing Albert
with things like “He’ll sign for $1 because he love the town or Tony” will only get your heart broken.
I’m assuming you are early 20’s and still have not had your idealism ripped from you.
by Tom_Lawless_Bat_Flip on Oct 16, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
He's definitely not a Packer fan
That’s for sure.
by Merry CRasmus on Oct 17, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
quote of the year
I’m assuming you are early 20’s and still have not had your idealism ripped from you.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
He'll have a hell of a time selling that compund he's building.
I wonder what Dee thinks. She wears that pants, anyway.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
so st louis is his home
and he takes a job somewhere else for 8 years. not that unreasonable
just sayin’, i won’t be surprised if he walks
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
in that case i'm not playing anymore
thought this was just a diversion because, well…we’re not playing tonite.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
it is
just a little hot-stove banter.
pujols won’t be traded. guaranteed. just questioning whether or not it’s for the best
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i feel better then
jordan and favre went elsewhere, but they weren’t traded and the circumstances were way different. now if ownership or fo came out publicly criticizing deedee’s cuisine, albert might demand a trade or walk in a couple years. but it would take something like that, because they will cover the competitiveness quotient.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
What a shitty place to just live.
At least go somewhere without state income taxes.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i agree
but not based on taxes
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You're not potentially making 30M a year.
There is no way I’d live in a state that charges income tax if I made that kind of money.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
if i made $30MM/year
i definitely wouldn’t change my residence based on state tax rates
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
plus
those guys can write pretty much everything off anyway
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
then you'd loose a lot of money.
and, no, they can’t just write everything off.
There is a reason 90% of pro athletes “reside” in Florida or Arizona. And it’s because it saves them a shit ton of money.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
yeah
but i’d still have a shitload of money
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I don't understand this logic.
You would have to really value the place that you call home.
Let’s say you make $30 million a year gross. 35% top bracket income tax, and 6% state income tax means you are taking home $17.7 million a year.
Now if you move to Arizona for 6 months of the year, you are free from that tax and take home $19.5 million a year, for a savings of $1.8 million per annum.
Now let’s say you have that contract for 10 years – that’s $18 million bucks you just handed to Missouri. If you really didn’t care about the money, I’m sure you could at least find a better use for it than giving it to the government.
Free Milton
what i'm saying is
HFS I HAVE $12.3MM WHO FIVES A SHIT
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
BUT I DIDN'T WIN THE LOTTERY
I MAKE $30MM EVERY YEAR
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i live in fucking texas anyway
there’s no state tax here. all i’m saying is eventually you have enough money that you don’t need to change your life to save a little cash
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I understand your point.
But 6% of your income isn’t a Dixie cup scooped out of the ocean. We are talking about $20 million incremental over a career simply for owning a house in a different state.
“Just because you have money, doesn’t mean you have to spend it” – Chad Ochocinco.
Free Milton
nah you're right
everybody loves to claim "well X is “enough”.
and that’s just bullshit.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"
still
finding it difficult to care when i still have enough money left of to do whatever i could possibly want. twice
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Cost of living is probably greater in some of those states, too.
Besides, plenty of millionaires live somewhere where they pay state taxes. Works for them.
For many of them living in that state is a necessity though..
I hate paying NYC taxes and would love to move if I could, but my job doesn’t exist anywhere else.
Free Milton
But you could have more.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
But who cares when there's that much?
We’re talking nearly unfathomable amounts of money for a yearly income.
I'm just saying that in this little scenario
I’m not concerned with buying a home in another state – and paying for it’s upkeep – so that I can skirt paying state income taxes when I’d really rather live in a different state. It’s a hassle, and one that would require me having trusted staff (a great way to go broke, by the way) at whichever house isn’t being lived in. Bleh.
And I also wouldn’t mind paying those taxes. Hell, I’m pretty much broke and I don’t mind paying taxes now. It’s not fun, but welcome to civilization.
Oh, and NO POLITICS!
to much of the world's population
all of us make nearly unfathomable amounts of money, but I’m pretty sure we still care about sums in the range of 5-10% of our yearly incomes.
by brackenthebox on Oct 16, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
horrible logic
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
When you are making several million dollars a year,
if you’re worried about 5 – 10% of your yearly income, I’m worried about you. YOU’RE A FRICKIN’ MILLIONAIRE!
C'mon Spants
This is the same argument for carrying 13 pitchers even when you aren’t going to use one of them. Why throw that spot away?
Free Milton
yeah, that's a great analogy
congrats
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
You keeping more of your money
means you can do what you see fit with it and donate more to feed starving kids.
Those kids are dead now. Way to go, spants.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 16, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
maybe spants is like Azru
and this was all part of an evil plan
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
Yes, yes.
If only I actually had millions of dollars.
You know what I would do with that money? I’d pay higher taxes and donate it.
If I won the lottery, I would do the same
but if I earned all that money, I’d do my best to keep it. Buying a cabin on Lake Travis really isn’t that difficult.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
If you get audited,
good luck proving residency. It’s more than just owning property. For athletes, especially baseball players who play for half the year or more, it’s probably easier to prove since they travel for their jobs. And, their jobs may not even be in the same city as their primary residence.
If you earn that kind of money in one year, I’d say you’ve hit the mother effing jackpot.
I'm a baseball player in this hypothetical exercise.
If I somehow got a 307% raise at my job now (or something similar), I would not be dumb enough to establish residency where I don’t live. But I would still wish Missouri would get rid of their income tax.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Hey, and I wish that Monsanto
would create some magic pixies that will patch the roads so that you can drive your Lamborghini on our previously state-funded roads.
There will still be plenty to tax!
It’s not like Florida, Arizona, and Texas don’t have roads and services! It can be done, nay sayer.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
It's not my fault you doubt Yakov can bring in that money to Branson.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Who doubts the power of Yakov?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Oct 17, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
In Soviet Russia, TEAM trades YOU!
No, wait… that is not funny.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
roads in austin suck
compared to columbia, st louis, etc
SUCK
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I've been there
they’re not worse than St Louis. Missouri roads are abysmal.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
i live there
i’ve also lived in missori
the roads are much worse here if you ever venture away from the westlake and arboretum areas
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i mean
you should’ve seen my reaction the first time i tried to drive from montopolis to s 1st on oltorf at 35mph! phew!
but you already know about that
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
yay!
Pretentious anecdotal attitude!! Texas generally rates among the best roads in the country, Missouri is normally in the teens.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
The quality of the roads is only half the problem
The civil engineering here is just absolutely abysmal—it’s impossible to get onto and off of the highways, the horrible intersections, etc.
And of course, the city’s insistence on paving things in asphalt, which melts two days into the Texas summer.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
i think i like
texas’ feeder roads leading onto and off of the highway more than the on/off ramp of missouri. getting on and off of the highway sucks so bad because the sheer volume of traffic and how awful texas drivers are
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 19, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I have wasted so much of my life looping
back to get to things that I passed up, thanks to all of the outer roads being one-way. Driving down by slaughter and onion creek is nightmarish with this.
And that still doesn’t explain why the interchanges are so horrible—183/I-35, 290/I-35, MoPac and anything. I could just deal with high-volume traffic, but Austin’s road system is just bad civil engineering.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
that's true
about when you pass something up. might as well add at least 15 minutes to your trip.
changing highways will be better when they finish all those ramps so that you don’t have to touch the feeder roads when you change. like north 35 onto east 290 or east 71 onto north 35.
though, fortunately i just moved, so 71 is pretty much the only highway i have to touch and compared to 35, i looooooove 71
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
really
you wanna know where the highways suck? fucking oklahoma. holy shit. i attribute much my recent $1500 car repair bill to the roads in oklahoma when i drove from columbia to austin a few months back
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
yeah, they are awful in MOST of oklahoma
i actually got a ticket once for dodging a frigging GIANT pothole on the freeway. The cop had been just sitting there parked under the overpass just behind it, waiting for someone to change lanes without signaling.
Thing was 3 feet across, the cop just smiled.
OTOH, the toll road between tulsa and OKC is great…
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
and from federal seat belt compliance,
and enforcing the MAnDadted .08.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
You know
I don’t see how commenting on our nation’s messed up tax laws should be seen as daubing into politics. Nobody here is saying, “LIBERALS SUCK!” or “REPUBLICANS DROOL!”, I honestly wonder why a professional athlete (Pujols in this case), would pay taxes somewhere he doesn’t work, rather than just claiming a non descript residency, saving him millions a year.
If the conversation evolves into thoughts on flat taxes or slaes based taxes, so be it. That is only political because we’re making everything that happens in society political based.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I'd love to have this conversation with you.
And I believe that this is just a philosophical/political/taxation difference between us.
I just think we're advanced enough to not just pay becasue we live somewhere.
I’d like to pay on what we use and consume.
But I’m a crazy federal flat taxer that is in favor of local sin/consumption/entertainment/usage taxes and thinks things like pot should be legal and available at Dirt Cheap (and taxed) and paid consensual sex by adults should be legal (and taxed to bejebus).
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 17, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We have some common ground,
but until those types of consumption taxes are realized, it’s a nonstarter for me and my utopia.
can we still play Utopia on Intellivesion until then?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
Also,
maybe he feels like it’s his duty to pay those taxes. Only Albert knows why he’s made this choice.
he has a foundation
plus, he’d like to put as much into it as possible. he’ll play hardball, but not cutthroat, and be able to give alot more to this charity, assuming he gives a certain percent of his annual income. think of him as robin hood. i choose to.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
The difference is ...
Robin Hood stole from other people to give it to the “less fortunate.” Personally, I like Albert’s way better.
but really,
republicans do drool
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
no way
they nasty
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
This is why Jeter "lives" in Florida
Even though he has a ridiculous apartment in Trump Tower in Manhattan that he spends most of his time.
Free Milton
I feel confident that...
Albert wants to be on a competitive team, and it seems like he hopes that team is the St. Louis Cardinals. At least that’s the vibe I’m getting from my nebulous memory of various statements he’s made. And that’s about as much as I can ask of him so I’m happy with that.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
It would have to be a haul similar to...
Jesse Solomon
David Howard
Issac Holt
Alex Stewart
Dixon Edwards
Russel Maryland
Alexander Wright
Emmit Smith
Alvin Harper
Darren Woodson
Something like that would get it done.
MB for LF in 2010!
What is Darren Woodson's position?
Don’t think you can sack the pitcher… :P
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
you know...
we love our former Red Sox!
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Cards must-signs: Holliday, DeRo
Cards should let these guys walk: Ankiel, Pineiro, Glaus, Thurston, Wellemeyer, K. Greene
Pujols might be the best player in the game
But he doesn’t have the highest trade value. Contracts must be considered. FanGraphs had a top 50 trade value rundown…Longoria was tops of the list. Interesting read and methodology…check it out! Its a long series breaking down every player in the top 50, but well worth it.
Free Milton
yeah, he's number 4
a lot of gms probably don’t think that way anyway. he’s the best in the game. that means a lot
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
So do you really think
Anyone would pick 2 years of Albert for $32 mil over 7 years of Longoria for $43 mil?
Free Milton
Yeah, I don't think it's possible to have more trade value than Longora.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 15, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
what if i throw in in the undercoating?
is that something you might be interested in?
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
probably not
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Yes, I do
It depends on the situation that you’re in. If you know you have a 2 year window to win while other clubs are rebuilding then I’m trading for Pujols.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
I just don't think that the difference in performance between Pujols and Longoria
is big enough to justify giving away 5 additional years of Longoria for $11 million dollars, regardless of what other teams are doing. Longoria is 24 and was a 7+ WAR player this year.
Pujols gives the Rays what, at most a 10% incremental gain in playoff odds for a season over Longoria? And that is being generous, assuming Pujols is 3 wins better than Longoria for the next two years (he was ~1 win better this year). Giving the Rays 3 more wins this year puts them at 87 wins which will make the playoffs about 18% of the time vs. 8% expected playoff odds with 84 wins (source).
Is two years of 10% increased odds worth 5 years of 7 win talent?
It would be a comparable to us having control of Rasmus for the next seven years and trading him for two years of Matt Kemp.
Free Milton
Aah, I loved that BP article
That was the first thing that illuminated me to the magic of the Logistic Regression.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 16, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Why trade him?
He’s the shiny toy that represents a big middle finger/lookie what I got to the Yanks, Redsox, Mets, Cubs, etc. It’s a beautiful think. Pay that meyan his myoney!
Pujols is worth something like $50M.
That’s not all that much- he’d be worth more if we resigned him for $20-25M per year for another six or seven years.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
now, if we're talking which *team* could we trade him for...
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 15, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Pujols for A-Rod straight up
this thread is ridiculous in the bad way
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
An identical thread..
with exist a year from today, and that one will be very serious.
MB for LF in 2010!
The chances of Albert being traded is about the same
as the Cardinals changing their logo from a red bird to a catholic arch bishop
Soccer is for people to small and wussy for real football
Yankees and Red Sox ...buying your way into playoffs every year
So you're saying there's a chance?
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Oct 16, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hm... now there's an idea.
Cardinal Richelieu was pretty badass:
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
do you guys realize that the name CARDINAL is in fact from the color of a cardinal's robes?
That’s the original name from 1899. The birds came afterward in 1922.
Worst hyperbole ever.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
besides, one of our players already has a cape.
shhhhh.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
former player
scotty really could fly. i wonder if he still can?
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 17, 2009 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the team was simply named after the color
some dumb chick said “what a nice color of cardinal” and the st louis perfectos were no more
or so legend has it
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Well, I would say the name clearly originates from the color rather than the bird.
But whether that means it’s is more closely related to cardinals’ robes or feathers, I’m not willing to claim one way or the other. It’s just a color, that happens to be shared by a kind of bird and by a type of Catholic official (which is not the same thing as an Archbishop but I’m going to let that one pass).
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
but the claim is that the name of the color is from the robes, not the bird
in fact the bird is named after the official.
The common name, as well as the scientific name, of the Northern Cardinal refers to the cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church, who wear distinctive red robes and caps.
“Cardinal red” is derived from the robes. That’s not in much dispute either.
Cardinal is a vivid red, which gets its name from the cassocks worn by Catholic cardinals (although the color worn by cardinals is actually scarlet). The family of birds takes its name from the color.
Either way, it’s like saying the cubs have a better chance changing their name to the White Sox. Quite a good chance that fellow doesn’t even know about the Chicago White Stockings, 1870 through 1875.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
that still doesn't mean
that the st louis cardinals were named after the catholics. i guess you could argue that they’re named after the color which is derived from the catholics, but that’s a pretty weak argument
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
"the color of a cardinal's robes"
that’s what I said. the second part of your comment.
I never once said the lady or whomever remarked that they looked like a bunch of clergy.
Also I think you are missing the ignorance of the first comment. You know. The comment by the cubs fan.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
maybe it was an ignorant joke
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
I think Pujols might be traded
I heard the Cardinals are looking for a lefthanded, power hitting first baseman
Red Sox...
….Pujols and Molina for Youkilis, Victor Martinez, Clay Buccholz and Daniel Bard
or
Rangers…Pujols for Smoak, Neftali Feliz and Martin Perez
I wouldn't be opposed to it
I’m a Cardinals fan; not an Albert Pujols fan. Don’t get me wrong, I love me some Albert. But if he plays for another team, I’m not gonna go root for that team. If we get to a point where there’s no way Albert will re-sign, it’s better to trade him. We can get much more in return by trading him than just the two draft picks we’d get for offering him arbitration, not to mention we’d likely get proven first-rate MLB talent in return and likely field a competitive team with more payroll flexibility. I hope Mozeliak keeps an open mind with regards to this situation.
All of that being said, I hope Albert is a Cardinal until he dies. I hope we can sign him to a decent contract. But if we’re not going to, might as well maximize our returns for letting him go.
John Smoltz for Cardinals' closer 2010!!
2012 team
Looking ahead to the 2012 team and assuming options are picked up, the Cards would be fielding a team which has a starting rotaion of Carpenter, Wainwright & Lohse (Carp/Lohse in their contracts year ), Molina (last year under contract), Rasmus & Motte in their 1st arb year, Kmac & Ryan in their second arb year, and , Skip in his third arb year. Most teams would be confident on winning if they could score three runs.
Albert is most definitely waiting to see what the FO does this off season to build a winner for the contract extension period. I can foresee Albert waiting until either late next summer or the Fall of 2010 to reassess the Cards competitiveness before agreeing to an extension.
It's déjà vu all over again
You know what Yogi, it really is.
And I’ll stand by my two year old comment, you’ll have to ask lboros what he thinks about his.
(Bye the way, what ever happened to the that tournament? Did we just quit in the the semi’s because Azru was winning? I think I still had one team left in play, there’s a chance I could have passed Cardinal70 with out even participating in the first two rounds. Sigh….. )
"There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else: build a fire, run a hotel and manage a baseball team."- Rocky Bridges
by That's a Winner on Oct 16, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions
it's a slide piece, per Joe morgan.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
I really, really hope an extension comes soon.
I will literally go on a killing rampage after reading the thirty thousand Red Sox trade ideas that just totally fleecing the Cards. :(
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
that just totally fleece*
Grammar errors /sigh
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
Totally would never happen but
Pujols for Hanley and Cantu?
"Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does all the work"
-Mark Twain
i'd rather have
josh johnson than cantu. otherwise it’s pretty much albert for hanley straight up and i’m not a taker
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
i'd do albert for hanley straight up
no way the marlins would, though.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
Ending this talk of trading Pujols
The St Louis Cardinals are not the Pittsburgh Pirates or Cleveland Indians
Soccer is for people to small and wussy for real football
Yankees and Red Sox ...buying your way into playoffs every year
We're not saying that we're giving him away for FREE!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
And if the facts being reported
are really the facts, it doesn’t do any good to stick our heads in the sand about this. The organization just did exactly what most presumed Albert wanted them to do, and supposedly he isn’t even interested in sitting at the table this offseason. That just isn’t a good development, if true, and ignoring it doesn’t change that fact.
The organization is in a bad spot with this, and it seems most people either don’t realize it or they just don’t want to think about it.
by Merry CRasmus on Oct 19, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That's one way to look at it
The other would be that he wants to play out his current contract and then talk before the option year, because he signed that contract and wants to live up to his contractual obligations.
I prefer to think of it my way, lol
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
don't forget the part
where he leaves it in god’s hands
that’s usually how i roll. i let god tell me where i need to get a job
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
what kind of prophet are you?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
the by-definition kind
according to my above post
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Oct 20, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
twist to be pondered
could prophecies be chock-full of undetected sarcasm?
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
of course not!
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
Could you imagine ...
the Lord speaking to Abraham and saying “What are you doing with that knife? Can’t you tell I’m kidding?”
these very things
have been popping into my head all night.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
Pujols in a 4-way trade for
Tim Lincecum, Pablo Sandoval,
Cliff Lee,
and my altered stats pitcher who has 100 skill level at every pitch.. a 100mph fastball and a perfect knuckler and stands 7-foot tall and has the injury option turned off.
he plays for lg min and pays holliday's contract out of pocket
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
...so he recruits similar players to the team
and manages, too.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
and his managing decisions
are made based on comments on veb. he has his laptop open to the game thread at all times
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
and when he doesn't pitch he can hit as well
And now a scene from seinfeld
ELAINE: [mind] Who does this guy think he is?
KEITH: [mind] I'm Keith Hernandez.
It's not so far-fetched
Phil Rogers (not that he’s Gammons or Boswell) in his column yesterday’s Chicago Tribune floated that scenario of trading Albert to the Red Sox in a three- or four-for-one trade.
you all gotta take anything people from that town say with a grain of salt
they will say & write anything they can in the hope it freaks out DeWitt & Co or pisses off Albert. they are just hoping anything they do or say will help get Albert off the Cardinals. too bad everyone knows they have no credibility.
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
Albert Pujols has brought the cardinals so many playoff appearences .You don't trade that
Soccer is for people to small and wussy for real football
Yankees and Red Sox ...buying your way into playoffs every year
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