Joe Mather Thy Name is Chris Duncan
In 2007, Joey Bombs lit Springfield (and the internets) afire by posting a .994 OPS at Springfield under the tutelage of hitting coach Derrick May*. Mather hit over .300, slugged over .600 and blasted 18 small white orbs into the stands of Hammons Field. With Colby Rasmus in center,** eyes were squarely on the Springfield club and Mather took advantage. He displayed power accordant with his 6'4" 200lbs frame and a level of athleticism that made the big man look smooth (though not quite Rasmussian smooth) in the outfield. After being promoted to Memphis midway through the season, the bat receded towards career averages with a .771 OPS.
2008 would witness the return of Mather's first half prowess from the previous season. With a 1.041 OPS he showed a commensurate level of power and even improved his plate discipline boasting a .411 OBP with 32 walks against 36 strikeouts. At age 26, it was a fortuitous development for Mather who had ebbed toward obscurity due to lack of development. Mather would receive his call to the bigs in 2008 and post a respectable .780 OPS playing a variety of positions.
A lost season would follow in 2009, as Mather failed to lay claim to the 3rd base job that the Cardinals initially foisted upon him in Spring Training. Plagued by various maladies (back, wrist) and multiple surgeries, Mather would end the year with a meager 226 PAs across multiple minor league levels. The lion's share of which, 150 in Memphis, were largely forgettable (.505 OPS). With his hitting abilities sapped by the wrist injury, the outlook seems hazy at best.
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Chris Duncan was hardly an unknown prior to the 2006 season. With a father who served as the Cardinals long time pitching coach and confidante extraordinaire to the enigmatic Tony La Russa, and a brother, Shelley Duncan, who was a borderline major leaguer in the Yankees system, Chris was, if anything a known***. The problem was that he was known as a poor defensive first baseman whose hitting skills had resulted in a consistent sub-.800 OPS.
Events (and people?!?!? -- kidding) would conspire to bring Chris, who had shown some signs of life with a .827 OPS at Memphis in 2005, to the majors. His efforts in 2006 were, in no small part, responsible for the Cardinals run into an through the post season to a World Series title. His defensive shortcomings in left field, while legendary, were forgivable when the trophy-humping slugger blasted a mammoth 22 home runs in 314 PAs that season.
A neck injury would plague Chris in 2007 and beyond. His numbers dwindled with the Cardinals from their initial high in 2006 of .952 OPS to a craterous .687 OPS in 2009. When traded to Boston for Julio Lugo, the Cardinals tacitly acknowledged that Chris was no longer the player he was in 2006 regardless of the reasons. A briefly promising career that began with calls to make him the everyday left fielder, ended with jeers and derision towards the player and management.
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This brings us to the present. The Cardinals freshly eliminated from the playoffs, contemplate their future and the future of their big name, big bat mid season acquisition, Matt Holliday. With his impending free agency and the mountainous hordes of cash he is liable to command, some fans seem willing to let him walk. Without debating the merits of re-signing him, I remain perplexed by one proposed solution: Joe Mather.
We've seen Mather post close to league average offensive stats in his short major league stint. He's shown himself to be a capable fielder patrolling the outfield corner positions and an acceptable fill-in for center. We've even seen the tremendous power potential with a .233 ISO in the bigs. But we saw all that with Chris Duncan too.
Certainly there are differences, and you'd be right to argue that they disrupt the analogy, but Joe Mather's track record is about as proven as Duncan's was. A few half seasons of excellent production overshadowing adequate but uninspiring prior seasons. Nagging injuries followed by multiple surgeries are labels that Chris Duncan was unable to shed as a Cardinal and ones that threaten to adhere to Joe Mather as well. Mather is certainly a better athlete and his surgery was far more routine than the radical neck surgery Duncan underwent. However, Mather has not proven to be a durable commodity nor one of whom we have data for a precise major league projection.
The Cardinals are likely to give Mather several chances to prove his worth next season either at 3rd or in the outfield of Roger Dean Stadium. They'd be remiss not to. But, they are also certainly going to do so with the risk of his downside in mind, something that seems to have eluded some on the internet who carelessly fling his name out as a firm solution. A bit of trepidation is advised -- after all, as Papa Duncan so rationally**** reminded us this season, injuries can have a deleterious effect on player performance.
* FWIW, May has been creditted with several hitter's surging numbers in recent years at Springfield.
**The motley crew in left consisted of Sean Danielson, Mark Shorey and Cody Haerther.
***I'm sure there's a comma splice in there somewhere and I'm equally sure I don't know where.
**** Well, he did remind us anyway.
0 recs |
98 comments
Comments
May
I think I remember seeing somewhere that the MLB Cards hitting coach is in less than a secure employment scenarion – might we see May come and fill that position next year?
by cdb on Oct 13, 2009 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
May would be an interesting and probably good choice
I have interacted with him a few times and he seems quite sharp.
He’s also much more modern and informed in his approach, which I gather McRae is not.
Jeff Albert is also sharp.
by thepainguy on Oct 13, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would LaRussa promote someone from the development ranks?
With the bad blood that seems yet to be between the major league field management and the player development system, I’m afraid that even a very good coach will not be given an opportunity with the current regime in place.
by etp_stl on Oct 13, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the minor league coaches occasionally hang out in the dugout / bullpen
they’re up in St. Louis all the time, incl. to help out the big leaguers.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 14, 2009 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference between ...
occasionally hanging out in the dugout and being part of the coaching staff. LaRussa has always seemed to prefer to select his coaches from his core group rather than promote from inside the organization, with the exception of Jose Oquendo.
by etp_stl on Oct 15, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
point
Though I did mean it in the sense that they weren’t just “visiting”, they were involved in the process of coaching.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 15, 2009 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry.
Now that I read what I wrote I think it sounds snippier than it was intended. Your point is definitely valid, and I actually wasn’t aware that he had some of the minor league coaches up to help out. That’s actually pretty cool that he does. I really just meant to say that it’s easier for him to throw them a bone that way than to actually promote them to a full time position on his staff.
I wonder if he intentionally doesn’t pull coaches up from the minors because he doesn’t want to cannibalize the organization of valuable coaches. What do you think?
by etp_stl on Oct 15, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah, didn't take it as snippy
I never quite caught why there were minor league coaches up there, at any point. They would just point them out, linger in the shot long enough to make it clear they weren’t just lollygagging, then go back to the game. It’s one of them unknown thingies. No telling if it was Tony inviting them, for one; maybe it was Mo.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 15, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pop warner seems to be on the tony hot track.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 16, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
May as MLB hitting coach?
Painguy’s (well respected) endorsement aside, how sure are we that a lot of May’s contributions are not due to the extreme hitter friendly environment that Hammons Field and the Texas League in general are? I’m sure he’s great, but a lot of players are going to have a pretty large jump in production when moving from run killing Roger Dean stadium to Hammons Field.
He hit it good. He hit it good.
by Jack618 on Oct 14, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrist Injury
To my knowledge, Duncan did not suffer such an injury. To me, that is the huge difference. We’ve seen how long it took Derek Lee to start hitting like Derek Lee after his wrist injury. Nomar Garciapara comes to mind, as well. I’m sure that there are others, some of whom may have returned with little ill effect. However, the nature of Mather’s injury is what concerns me. It’s a nagging type of injury and that is why I’m hopeful for the 2010 version of him, but not at all counting on that version being a big contributor.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Duncan...
Didn’t he bang up his knee pretty good in 2007 & have season ending sports hernia surgery?
by ICbirdfan on Oct 13, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did.
And he was never the same. The disc injury in his back/neck area didn’t help either. But this just adds to why, as Az points out, Mather’s future may be more in step with post-2006 Duncan than 2006 Duncan or 2008 Mather.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 13, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget Ortiz
This is why I’m against anything more than arbitration for DeRosa. You simply don’t know what you are going to get – why take on more risk than necessary?
by Ray Lankford on Oct 13, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying Mark is like a Type-B box of chocolates?
You simply don’t know what you are going to get
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually thought about prefacing that by saying, "Like life . . ."
by Ray Lankford on Oct 14, 2009 7:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my momma always said that about DeRo, too.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 14, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrist injuries typically take a whole year at least to recover from
Few injuries sap the power like wrist injuries. I look forward to see what Mather can do in 2010 and for the same reasons not looking forward to Mark DeRosa.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 14, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who did the Fanpost on DeRosa's wrist injury?
I’d say DeRosa still had power, he just didn’t have good contact skills. I wonder why that was. Perhaps, was it Hazel(?), could tell us.
"I'm gonna throw the nastiest curveball I have ever thrown...if he hits it, I'll tip my cap, but if not we're going to the Series."
--Adam Wainwright on the final pitch of the 2006 NLCS
by bgh on Oct 14, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gotcha
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2009/7/6/939476/wrist-injuries-weve-earned-this
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 14, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mather's wrist injury was one of the most serious types.
We absolutely need to see him come back in the minors before we put stock in his return to the majors.
From what I know, he broke one of his carpal bones (very bad), had surgery to get it removed because it failed to heal or healed in some malunion (even worse), and then needed a second surgery for a cyst or scar tissue after the surgery (ugh). This isn’t to say he’s done- Chris Duncan seemed like a much longer shot to come back, but what he has on people like Lee and Ortiz in age and athleticism, he loses from the complexity of his injury.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Oct 14, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you can often come back as not the same player at all
see, Garciaparra, Nomar
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Oct 14, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and rosy???
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Oct 17, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AZRU
Interesting post about Mather, was not really aware of his or Duncan’s minor league performances.
What is Mather’s 3B defense like? Probably has not played enough at STL to have a sample size worth noting. I remember him playing a few games/innings at 3B in 2008.
Does the org view Mather to be more of a 3B than Craig? Is Mather better defensively than Craig at 1B, 3B, and OF?
by ICbirdfan on Oct 13, 2009 10:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mather is tall.
that is my new favorite criterion for 3B.
Other than that, he has quite an uphill climb to return to Joey Bombs form. With the sheer number of surgeries, I’m not optimistic.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 13, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need a really...
freaking tall third sacker… to catch those line drives to left.
MB for LF in 2010!
by guayzimi on Oct 13, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and those throws from david freese.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Oct 13, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case ...
we need Manute Bol at 2B to catch the one that DeRosa sailed into right during the series against L.A.
by etp_stl on Oct 13, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
could boog
on bol’s shoulders and stilts, have snared that one ball…you know, the one that got out to holliday…
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 13, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's another weird hole in boog's game
catching cut-off throws and balls in the air.
…or swinging the bat heyooooo. (haha, much better than last year, Boog. keep up the good work)
it’s like if it’s not on the ground, he doesn’t know what to do with it……. he needs to go home with a ball machine, Skip’s making him look bad
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 14, 2009 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
with a lacrosse stick and a trampoline, maybe
speaking of which, would that be totally illegal for an infielder? IE, is there a rule that says the glove must actually be attached to the hand?
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Oct 13, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somehow I don't see a
lacrosse stick and trampoline as being allowed. I’m sure the other manager would complain about it being an unfair advantage and want their own. Then it slow the game down by moving on and off the field.
No, you can’t throw the glove at the ball, although that might get rather amusing.
"There is not a better feeling in the whole world than knowing that you are the best team in both leagues."- Bob Forsh on winning the 1982 World Series.
by MaytheForschbewithyou on Oct 14, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i actually believe there is a rule that says your glove must be on your hand.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Oct 14, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And actually
I think there is a rule that limits the equipment to something like glove, uniform, cap, shoes, etc.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Oct 14, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but does it say you can't have a glove on a pole?
I know you can’t throw your glove, but it would be pretty cool to see infielders play with sticks in their hands. Totally different game, but still very cool.
it's Clydesdales vs Goats. Actually sums up Cards vs. Cubs quite nicely. -all4tookie
by SleepyCA on Oct 26, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not the right person to ask about Craig re: the org view.
I don’t understand what the Cardinals want Craig to do at this point to earn a shot. The only thing I can think of is that they are simultaneously higher on Freese and lower on Craig than I am. In that instance, they’re trying to find room for both bats.
Mather would probably be in for a Schumaker like conversion adjusting to 3B. It would be rough but if the org committed to it, probably not impossible.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 13, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i read your site
respect your knowledge of the farm, and share your perplexity in regard to craig. regarding mather, i get what you are saying. but hope it goes the other way.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 13, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i love joey bombs, but i look at him as a bonus. not going to plan anything around
him.
seems like the options run the gamut from “comes back and knocks the cover off the ball” to “never recovers from wrist surgery.” while his brief stint at SPFLD this year was better than having him complain of being unable to play because of wrist pain, it did nothing to make me think he’s going to come back and really mash.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Oct 13, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Indeed.
:=8)
Big McLargehuge!
:=8O
by The MooCow on Oct 13, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well played sir
Go crazy folks, go crazy!
by WizardofOz on Oct 13, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
* in response to guayzimi above
Go crazy folks, go crazy!
by WizardofOz on Oct 13, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you stated we saw good defense with duncan
i must have missed that
"Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter's box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don't pray, you think about starting."--Brian Bannister
by VolsnCards5 on Oct 13, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i don't think i said that anywhere
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 13, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but tell the truth
you thought it, didn’t you?
Chicago Cubs: The first century was funny...this second one is just sad...
by nomar34 on Oct 14, 2009 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
most were campaigning for him to be the everyday LF in 2006
Me? I wanted him as the everyday CF.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 14, 2009 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You kinda did...
We’ve seen Mather post close to league average offensive stats in his short major league stint. He’s shown himself to be a capable fielder patrolling the outfield corner positions and an acceptable fill-in for center. We’ve even seen the tremendous power potential with a .233 ISO in the bigs. But we saw all that with Chris Duncan too.
You could stretch and say that Duncan showed himself to be a capable OF patroller…but not at all an acceptable CF fill-in. I would also add that Mather’s 2007 in Springfield and 2008 in Memphis are FAR superior to anything Duncan ever did in the minors…not even close!
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 14, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see how that is poorly phrased on my part.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 14, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
does this mean Mather will get titanium in his neck?
I thought Duncan was bizarro superman?
Positronic Upgraded Juggernaut Optimized for Logical Sabotage
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Oct 13, 2009 7:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
now that's an image
goodbye!
I DON’T hump trophy!
hello!
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Oct 13, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Curse of AK
Tony gave Mather the old No 7 in ST before the wrist injury proved too much for Mather to overcome. DeRosa’s offensive numbers with the Cards were pretty shabby after getting the same No. 7. And DeRo suffers a wrist injury. Could there be a link?
on another note, here is a link to a Goold Q & A with Joe back in Feb 09
by ubeddie on Oct 13, 2009 7:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also cursed: Hector Luna and Ron Belliard.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 13, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think Janice Deborah Drew ruined that number
f’in drew
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 13, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott Rolen cursed third base
not sure when that’s supposed to wear off
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 14, 2009 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did Drew wear number 7...
when he was here? Didn’t David Wells break Drew’s wrist with a pitch?
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 14, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MADE OF GLASS
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 14, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No to the second?
I know he sustained a hand injury that took him out for a month or tow on a HBP…don’t recall the specifics.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 15, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
two...
not tow
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 15, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a no. I just don't know the specifics.
by spants on Oct 15, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't find one source with all the info...
and I don’t know who the pitcher was, but he broke his wrist on July 4, 2005 on a HBP and missed the rest of the season.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 15, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course...
that was with the Bravos. He had his hand fractured in 2001 and missed 35 games.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 15, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This would be earier than that
Something like 2001, when Wells was with the White Sox.
And now I looked it up and it was this game
CARDINALS 3RD: Drew was hit by a pitch; McGwire was called out
on strikes; McGwire ejected by Everitt; Pujols popped to
shortstop; Bonilla flied to left; 0 R, 0 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. White
Sox 0, Cardinals 4.
snip
CARDINALS 5TH: Renteria struck out; Polanco doubled to right;
LANKFORD BATTED FOR DREW; Lankford was called out on strikes;
Drew broke hand on HP in 3rd, out 4-6 weeks; Robinson
reached on an error by D. Wells [Polanco scored (unearned),
Robinson out at third (right to third)]; 1 R (0 ER), 1 H, 1 E, 0
LOB. White Sox 0, Cardinals 5.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Oct 15, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
David Wells was the ChiSox SP in that game.
They say that it's never too late, but you don't get any younger...
by Valatan on Oct 15, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was drunk, so it's cool.
"In 2035, 25 young men will be able to call themselves world champions. Some of those guys haven’t even been born yet. And some of them are Asian." -Mike Shannon
by Alxfritz on Oct 16, 2009 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's always drunk
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 16, 2009 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's wrong with that?
Lighten up, Francis - Sergeant Hulka
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
by mattyfrommo on Oct 16, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
didn't say there was, just pointing out the obvious
it’s what i do
pretzels pretzels pretzels pretzels
by gdm426 on Oct 16, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mather is no C. Dunc
I think Joey Bombs will have a good season next year. I don’t think he’ll be as bad as C. Dunc was this year. I sure hope not, because I have, and always will, like Mather. Never was a big Little Dunc fan though.
Looking forward to Cardinals baseball in 2010!
Feel free to follow me on Twitter: @zoomzoomj88
by zoomzoomj88 on Oct 13, 2009 9:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
While it's almost a perfect analogy, Duncan's situation really has no bearing on how well Mather will play
Remember than Chris Duncan fell so low, in large part to his injury. His first full “year” in the majors was excellent. Plus, Mather is a much better defender than Dunc.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 13, 2009 11:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and athelete.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 14, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
the analogy works for injuries and offensive numbers, but I’d think old scouting reports were much more glowing of mather than duncan because of athleticism, glove, etc. that said, i don’t know anything about their respective pre-draft careers or even what round they were taken.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 14, 2009 1:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The problem with them is that their career paths are so different
Duncan hit way, way better during his early major-league peak than he ever did in the minors. Then he had a painful decline that included some bad injuries. Mather on the other hand, showed his best stuff in the high minors and did admirably in the majors, but not great. He looked like a guy that was still adjusting, exactly what you’d expect. I don’t see how we can determine yet whether Duncan’s success in ‘06 and ’07 was a fluke or not. At least Mather’s path made made some sense. Mather was never going to as “meh” defensively as Duncan was, either.
I think what they do have in common is that neither one, in their own situation, was/is a good bet to rely on. I think that, all things being equal, Mather would be the better option. But because of the injuries they’re both huge question marks.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
by mattybobo on Oct 14, 2009 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So I'm wondering...
why was Mather a 1B for so long in the minors? He’s obviously a superior defensive OFer…
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 14, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
per Mather injuries to others
caused him to shift around the field. Check out the Feb 09 Goold Q & A link I posted a few comments up. Joe actually started as a SS out of high school and some saw him as a third baseman.
FYI -gdm426 (gdm to his close bloggers) mentioned Jason Werth as a comparison to Joe. Werth started his professional career with the O’s as a catcher. Toronto converted him to OF. Werth didn’t have his breakout season until age 28. Mather is heading into his age 27 season.
by ubeddie on Oct 14, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Joe Mather becomes Jayson Werth I'll be the happiest girl in the world.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Oct 14, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wished we traded him for Rafael Soriano when he looked like the real deal
Thank you MLBtraderumors
And now a scene from seinfeld
ELAINE: [mind] Who does this guy think he is?
KEITH: [mind] I'm Keith Hernandez.
by CodyG on Oct 14, 2009 11:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what's the consensus
mather vs jay vs craig
gotta be one left fielder in there
holliday is ok, but boras won’t go for an affordable deal (and i don’t like watching him field)
might as well start working on alternatives
"No matter where you go, there you are" Buckeroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension
by sportsman on Oct 17, 2009 10:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am more concerned about hitting lefties than righties so
Jay is out. Craig is a better hitter right now but Mather has some upside. I take Craig for his bat and can play the corner IF spots if he has too.
by FlimtotheFlam on Oct 18, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mather can play all the corners, too...
I’d put both Mather and Craig easily ahead of Jay for many reasons…handedness is low on that list. I have to give Craig the edge right now for having strung together a few good years in the high minors. Mather is an unknown after the wrist injury.
"Don't do anything till I get back!" - Jesus to the Cubs
by cardzfanbub on Oct 19, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummm....
Affordable? What does that mean?
You realize his value as stated by other postes who understand stats have him around $20MM per year. What if he accepted that? Is that affordable?
I swear people have become baseball retarded about Matt Holliday because he dropped one ball.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 20, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Valuation and affordability are two separate things.
He may have $20MM/yr value, but the Cards cannot afford that type of deal. They do not play in a market that allows them to pay $40MM-$45MM for two position players. Holliday is the top position player in the free agent market, and Scott Boras is his agent. There is NO way that he is going to take a deal smaller than what the market defines, and you can guarantee that Boras is targeting that $20MM/yr mark that you referenced.
That puts Holliday out of an affordable range for the St. Louis Cardinals. That doesn’t make me retarded. I’m simply looking at the economics of the situation.
by etp_stl on Oct 20, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was put off by this comment....
(and i don’t like watching him field)
Why? Because he dropped 1 ball? His UZR this year was 5.3 and he has been pretty consistently pretty well above average in LF. So I don’t know who he wants playing LF but compared to you average LF Matt appears pretty good.
Affordable? the poster did not mention what affordable is. Please give a number. What if Matt Holliday agreed to play for $10MM a year? is that affordable?
I guess I don’t see the issue in offering him $17MM -$20MM a year, he is worth it for sure.
I was more so statng the poster was being baseball retarded by being more reactionay than defining anything.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 20, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
nothing to do with signing him
but i did not like watching holliday field either; it was a letdown to me because of his reputation as a plus defender. My expectations were much higher. Similarly, his speed home-to-first really impressed me. I never expected him to routinely beat out infield hits.
"Some days I feel like the hypotenuse in a love triangle; others as if my lucky number is pi."
by cardball on Oct 20, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could name at least three different times ...
that I was incredibly disappointed with his defense, including the play in the playoffs. He seemed to be fairly unsteady when he tracked balls in the OF. I don’t understand how he can look so very coordinated in the batter’s box or on the base paths, but so uncoordinated in the OF. I’m not saying he’s awful, nor even below average for a LFer. I just don’t understand why guys that get paid that much put so little effort in being at least competent at all aspects of the game. I personally would be embarrassed by some of this misplays that he made since he arrived in St. Louis.
by etp_stl on Oct 20, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
chasing caroms, getting balls back in, hitting the cut off man, backing up third base...
I could go on and on. The skillset only looked good for a few games, then went back to blah.
If he gets a big payday — from any club — and doesn’t fix that shit, my opinion of him will drop to just over Manny replacement level.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 21, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won't improve that at this point in his career.
I don’t believe you will teach too many old baseball players new fundamentals. He is what he is at this point in his career. What makes a guy like Pujols (or Ozzie in his day) special is the internal drive for continuous improvement. That’s why I find it so funny that Boras is comparing Holliday to Texeira because they’re both “complete players rather than just hitters.” Holliday’s value is completely at the plate, while Texeira can steal games with his glove.
by etp_stl on Oct 21, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't you jumping to conclusions?
You say you’re not disappointed with his defense just because of the play in the playoffs, but because of your various observations. The numbers contradict your assessment.
Also, the defensive value of veteran players fluctuates quite a bit. I feel like you’re not really making an argument here either, since there isn’t any evidence that Holliday’s “bad” defense is anything but luck and a few particular observations. Mark Teixera’s defense has fluctuated from below to above average over the same time period- I don’t think anyone would argue that he learned new fundamentals. Meanwhile, Skip Schumaker’s defense this year relied entirely on him learning new fundamentals. Just because you can’t teach an old dog new tricks doesn’t mean you can’t teach them to a professional baseball player.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Oct 21, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I don't.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe changing venues twice in the last two years are what caused the slide in his defense. However, I hear continuously how the defensive metrics simply aren’t particularly valuable, and I feel pretty confident in assessing the amount of coordination a guy has when tracking fly balls. He also routinely takes bad routes, and he seems faster on the base paths than he does in the OF. His footwork is awkward, and he didn’t particularly time jumps all that well.
It is a baseball axiom that bad defensive players are hidden at 1B and LF. If he had a particularly good arm he’d be a RF. If he was fast or took exceptional routes to the ball off the bat, he’d be a CF. There is a reason he plays in LF, and that reason is that he is a below average OF. I don’t particularly understand the value in comparing him solely to LF, especially since LF are typically the worst defensive starters for any team. Being an average LF, by that measurement, already starts you in a hole.
Yes, Skip Schumaker, a young man fighting to retain a spot in the bigs, re-learned a position he had once played. He didn’t have a whole lot of choice. He was basically told that if he wanted to secure his position on the roster it was going to take a move to the IF. Yet, it was still considered an amazing transformation, and he has become a serviceable but below average defensive 2B.
Holliday has none of that motivation. He’s going to receive a contract in excess of $100M. Do you really think that he will then suddenly become MORE motivated to develop as a LF than he has been up to now? Do you really think that he’s going to take advice from a manager or position coach particularly seriously? If he doesn’t, we all know they can’t bench him or cut him. They won’t be able to trade him after this contract is signed for at least half the contract duration, so there will be no leverage to convince him to improve. My opinion of Matt Holliday would skyrocket if he actually did work hard to improve himself in the field at that point, but I’m not convinced that will happen.
by etp_stl on Oct 21, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
My opinion of Matt Holliday would skyrocket if he actually did work hard to improve himself in the field at that point, but I’m not convinced that will happen.
"It was like two ankles." AVENGE BOOG
"But listen, and understand: more Molinas are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear." - THT
by Yadi2Second on Oct 22, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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